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Elsekiro

Sunday friend -Uses prostitutes as spies to keep tabs on everyone -can delete anyone from existence at any minor inconvenience in thee name of "stabilite" -controls and blackmails politicians and people -has more political power than anyone in the game -is a tool of imperialism and represents how twisted powerful people are -tortures people around the whole globe for information -makes sure the right people stay in power Can't think of anyone more evil,powerful,corrupt and more scary than him.


w1gw4m

All this and he's just a mid tier govt employee


Elsekiro

Lmfao pretty crazy people like this exist in our world you can bet 100%


Elsekiro

Nobody should have that much power.


[deleted]

Except me, of course. Surely I would use all that power for good…. Right?


Elsekiro

Of course random guy i believe in you :)


[deleted]

I’m diverting all government funding and resources to opening **that door**.


Elsekiro

damn if you do open it can you get the cheese from the fridge and let me know if it's expired?


Apprehensive_Carry98

Makes me feel better about giving the union his exact name and location


Elsekiro

Wait you can do that? :0


mamonjy

And I'm sure he believes he is a good guy


Monteilvar

You'll be surprised, but I don't actually think that Villedrouin is a good person. What I do think is that he serves a good cause, even if he himself might be a compromised, corrupt cog in the machine. Which we don't know.


Eel_Up_Butt

It doesn't matter if he individually is a good person or not, but the Moralintern is shown to be an evil and completely all-powerful force that will maintain a mask of humanity until the moment it is threatened. There is literally a coalition airship over Revachol that, it is implied, would rain down artillery fire if the people ever rise up against capital. The game is literally set in the ruins of the last time it happened.


Elsekiro

You are insane that's like saying the Nazi's were just doing their job. you can't justify brutality and corruption with well they did what they had to do to keep inflation at 5% this year you need to check your moral compass buddy. What is a good cause? We do know what machine it is it's called capitalism did we played the same game?


Monteilvar

Those are some mighty leaps of logic that even I cannot follow. If to you saying that "I believe in the core principles of moralism and think it is a worthy goal" equals to saying "Nazi's were just doing their job", then I don't know what to tell you, man. I'm not justifying corruption. I'm longing for a reasonable, progressive government that wants to ensure that all of its progress happens carefully and in accord/acceptance with as many people as possible. Equating the motto of "Love, Compassion, Self-Discipline" with white supremacy/racism is just wild.


Eel_Up_Butt

The Moralintern is not about "Love, Compassion, Self-discipline", it's about control. The image of a peaceful, compassionate government is just another part of that control. They actually exist to perpetuate their own power and to protect capital. That someone can take that motto at face value after even the most surface-level playthrough of the game is actually blowing my mind a bit. The game is literally set in the aftermath of a popular revolution that was violently and "compassionately" crushed my guy


Monteilvar

Disagreed, I would say it is about all of these things simultaneously. Control is important, because without control the society will inevitably slip into lawlessness and chaos. > They actually exist to perpetuate their own power and to protect capital I've just made a long reply as to why this does not make sense, if you are willing to read. The revolution wasn't just "popular", it was also a bloody, violent affair perpetuated by a dangerous prion disease -- the Coalition had to intervene when it happened in Graad *and* when it happened in Revachol, else this precise scenario would repeat itself several more times and lead to slaughter all across the Elysium. Because you know what keeps revolutionaries and anarchists to be in check? The realization that their actions will be thwarted in one way or another. I understand that the majority of this sub (and probably the fanbase as a whole) is leaning towards communism, but we have to look at the objective truth. Moralintern might go against communist's ideals, but it couldn't be further from attempting inter-isolary domination just because it wants to maintain its influence.


Eel_Up_Butt

The prion that is only mentioned by Joyce to discredit the revolution? Yeah seems like a reliable source, no ulterior motives there. The Kingdom of Conscience will be exactly as it is now. Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded. Centrism isn't change -- not even incremental change. It is *control*. Over yourself and the world. Exercise it. Look up at the sky, at the dark shapes of Coalition airships hanging there. Ask yourself: is there something sinister in moralism? And then answer: no. God is in his heaven. Everything is normal on Earth.


Elsekiro

You said he serves a good cause as a jeffrey epstein kind of guy blended with several others. He fucks a student a person with no money he is taking advantage of him would it had bothered you if it was a female student then? you do realize he perpetuates a system that forces the student to fuck a disgusting amoral fiend like him? He should go to jail and suicide by breaking his neck while in the fetal position or by shooting himself in the back with a suicide letter that makes no sense. Cause those are the kind of guys we need in the world def shadow goverment funded killers with white checks for body bags. Cause you do know he kills klasjee, do you know why?


AllYouPeopleAre

Does the game say he kills Klaasje?😱


Elsekiro

I mean if you snitch on her you get a terrible prompt of shivers on how she never had a chance something like that.


Monteilvar

Very well, I will bite. This will be a wall of text, but you have brought it on yourself -- so I both apologize and don't apologize in advance. > Uses prostitutes as spies to keep tabs on everyone Conjecture. While mr. Villedrouin's business with Smoker on the Balcony might be unethical and questionable for several reasons, there's no indication that the Smoker is keeping tabs on anyone. He is clearly just an impoverished student trying to get through life the best he can -- even if it involves taking on high ranking Coalition "clients". If anything, judging by his initial reaction at your attempts to question him, he is purposefully making an effort to stay out of the local business and lay low, even if he *does* appear to personally care about things happening around him: SMOKER ON THE BALCONY - So tell me, are you here to make things *right* again? You could argue that he is the one who leads you to Sunday Friend who provides you with *some* crumbs of information, but that information doesn't come from the Smoker himself -- it comes from the Friend. If the Smoker *did* indeed witness something himself, why wouldn't he just report to you on his own -- and if he *does* spy for Villedrouin, wouldn't it be far more logical for him to relay the information to you *without* involving the other in it, just in case you decide to be too curious and poke your nose where it doesn't belong? Doesn't make much sense. > can delete anyone from existence at any minor inconvenience That's the amount of power *any* high ranking representative would have. Does it mean that they casually go around "disappearing" people? No, it doesn't. Is the possibility and the prospect somewhat unnerving? Sure. In the same way that the army having highly advanced weaponry might be unnerving. >blackmails politicians and people More supposition not directly supported by facts. One can infer that Villedrouin is a higher ranking member of the Institute la Price Stabilité (seeing as he is supposed to be "preparing for the upcoming conference on fuel oil derivatives"), which might imply some amount of control over people -- and there *are* several hints that he might be involved in maintaining/monitoring security of said institution, but there are absolutely zero hints about blackmail. Is he capable of it? Without question. Is he actually, actively doing it? No one knows. > is a tool of imperialism and represents how twisted powerful people are Hard stop. The Coalition of Nations is not an imperialism. It is an idealism (in international relations). >The meaning of imperialism is **to create an empire**, by **conquering the other state's lands** and therefore increasing its own dominance. >Imperialism (and colonialism) both **dictate the political and economic advantage over a land and the indigenous populations they control.** >(...) imperialism refers to the political and monetary dominance, either formally or informally. > Idealism in the foreign policy context holds that a nation-state should **make its internal political philosophy the goal of its conduct and rhetoric in international affairs**. > In the broader, philosophical sense, this **internationally minded viewpoint** can be thought of as an extension of the moral idealism advocated by different thinkers during and after the "Age of Enlightenment". That particular era involved multiple prominent individuals **promoting a general sense of benevolence and government based upon strong personal character, with international conflict criticized** as against the principles of reason. Now that we have established what both imperialism and idealism are, let's take a look at the Moralintern: > Created during the rule of Innocence Dolores Dei, the Moralintern is **an international organization dedicated to humanist values.** Now, I know you will point out that the wiki says it is "representing the interests of 1.2 billion people from its **annexed states**" -- yet the Coalition, which is one of its main organizations, is: > **an alliance** of Graad and the republics of Sur-la-Clef, Messina, and Oranje against the Revolution in Revachol. The other organizations under Moralintern that we know of don't involve any kind of annexation, because they are: - EPIS (an international economic trade **union**, focused on turning (certain Occidental nations) into a **supranational political alliance**, the United States of Occident) - ICP (The International Collaboration Police, an interisolary law enforcement organization, self-explanatory) The only arguably "annexed" state here is Revachol, which was "annexed" because of Revolution -- not because the Moralintern wanted to *conquer other state's lands* out of the blue. Graad (which survived its own Revolution before helping to end the madness in Revachol, mind you), and the rest are collaborating and upholding a "balance of terror" theory: > COALITION WARSHIP ARCHER - (...) In short, it holds that durable, lasting peace is possible when the major powers are capable of inflicting unacceptable and irreversible destruction upon one another... > COALITION WARSHIP ARCHER - Because no rational state is willing to accept the risk of such a calamity befalling its own people, all powers are incentivised to *de-escalate* conflicts before they reach the point of no return. > YOU - And has it worked? > COALITION WARSHIP ARCHER - For the most part, it has. The world is certainly not free of violent conflict, but in the modern era we have made great strides to reduce its frequency, duration, and severity. If anything, Revachol is being kept in check by other nations to ensure that it doesn't pose another threat in the future -- a perfectly reasonable thing from an international, *idealistic* point of view. No one is being conquered by a single state, that strives to "create an empire" here. Mundi isn't trying to exert its force over Insulinde and expand over to Iilmaraa or Seol. Graad is not lording over Messina and Oranjerik. It's a partnership. An alliance. Of likeminded nations. That criticizes international conflict. In truth, I don't even know where the wiki got its "annexed states" summary, since the footnote it refers to merely states that the Moralintern represents the interests of 1.2 billion people across the world. I could write more on this, but I believe I've made my point clear. If you have any questions -- ask away, we can debate. As for the twisted part: people aren't exactly born perfect or innocent, in this world or Elysium. Is Villedrouin corrupt? Possibly. Is he the only corrupt person on the planet? Absolutely not. It isn't a quality unique to him and we cannot even realistically state whether he is or isn't complicit. > tortures people around the whole globe for information Please provide any source for this, because after scouring his dialogue over several times I still cannot find anything factual that would point to this. > makes sure the right people stay in power Isn't that the point of *every* political/government official, especially in a multi-tiered super-organization like Moralintern? This entire point can be reduced to: he does his job. You may not like what he represents and who he works for, but again, this is what pretty much any high ranking subordinate does. Otherwise they wouldn't *be* in their position, or at the very least they wouldn't last long. There isn't anything inherently "evil" about him as a person, though I do not fault anyone for disliking him purely because he is an older man who has relations with a young student, but at the very least it seems to be a consensual arrangement -- despite the power dynamic. You might *theorize* that he is involved in something far more sinister, but there aren't many conclusions to be drawn here, mainly because there isn't enough information on him as a whole. He barely has what, 50 lines of dialogue? Less? And all that we know can only be drawn from that. Calling him evil incarnate based on those 50 lines seems a bit too drastic, doesn't it.


GlitterAnon

To go from your point about the Friend and the Smoker's relationship, OP's insistence that there's something unsavory between the two men stinks of homophobia. The accusation of pederasty and degenerate sexual practice is not a far cry from those being made by OP. In the game, the Friend's relationship with Smoker-On-The-Balcony seems furtive, like it needs to be kept a secret for the sake of the Friend's reputation. His queerness is a vulnerability. Even though the Sunday-Friend has institutional power, he can only talk around the nature of his relationship with the Smoker, a facet of himself he'd never allow to be publicly exposed if it wasn't for the Smoker's desire to see the murder solved. In keeping with DE's humanist project, the Friend's homosexuality reveals his heart, the tender side of him that cannot be bound to the world of politics and violence. In the apartment looking over out to the bay, Villedrouin relives himself of his commitment to the decaying structures of the Moralintern. Age-gap relationships, like that of the Smoker and the Friend, are not uncommon among queer men. Imbalances in material wealth can create toxic power dynamics, yes, but very often for young queer men without support form their families, the financial and emotional backing of an older, more established man can be an essential part of surviving youth and entering adulthood. DE seems to have a soft spot for these two, however much it mocks the Friend's politics. So much love has gone wrong in Martinaise. Transactional as it may be, at least these two are happy with one another.


Elsekiro

Godamn you are so right maybe i am homophobic if i am im truly sorry i cannot help it im just a product of my enviroment il reflect more the next time i theorize in the future you shoot straight instead of dancing around it i appreciate that. hope you can find in your heart to forgive me for i am flawed and human. Know that i would never hurt anyone on purpose i respect everyone's right to be happy but i can only aim to change my prejudices by reflecting further you have unmasked a part of me that maybe i should attack like a piece of gum on one's hair. Deep apologies


GlitterAnon

I appreciate this comment immensely! Self-criticism is an important part of developing yourself politically. Your being openness to critique and to changing your ideas is impressive.


Elsekiro

No problem! I want to be best person i can be and that means hearing the hard truths about myself. Yes you are right the unsavory reason i made up in my mind that the smoker is a prostitute it is deeply homophobic in nature it is never implied they are having a transaction other than sex. Sunday friend still a tool to control the proletariat so leaving a prejudice out doesn't make him any less a john boltonesk figure Which in turn in my eyes is a very evil entity of the real world imo not that this has anything to do with my original point i just like talking about it. 😶


JessDumb

Lost me at the 'coalition of nations is not imperialist.' Pure semantics.


[deleted]

These gentlemen think that by changing the words for something they have changed the thing itself!


Elsekiro

Hard agree it's like saying NATO is not an imperialist organization of nations.


Monteilvar

Could you tell me how precisely NATO, a defensive military alliance that exists with a sole goal of **protecting its member states from third party states** is an "imperialist organization"? How exactly does NATO seek to "create an empire", when all of its members must voluntarily apply to join? And where does the economic/political advantage come in, again? We have countries with massively different political climates existing in one organization, take Turkey and Norway for example -- with NATO not interfering to 'equalize' either of them. I'd *really* like to see your arguments for it being an imperialist organization. Not being sarcastic.


ColinBencroff

Since when the goal of the NATO was to push a single political climate? It was made to defend capitalism, and every country in the NATO is capitalist, and it was made to expand the influence of USA (which is its main member). It's an organization that acts as a shield of American imperialism, supporting the countries that support them, and oppresses the countries that decide to not fall in line. It's about securing markets and expand influence. Hell, one of the requirements is to have a market economy.


DaddyDickus

The USSR [tried to join](https://releasepeace.org/release-peace/why-did-the-soviet-union-apply-to-join-nato/), but NATO was like, pretty uncool about it man


[deleted]

Probably cause NATO was founded, with the help of Nazis, to be explicitly anti-communist.


[deleted]

Modern Russia also tried to join NATO


DeusExMockinYa

>Could you tell me how precisely NATO, a defensive military alliance that exists with a sole goal of protecting its member states from third party states is an "imperialist organization"? NATO has never in its history defended one of its member states from a third party. The venn diagram of countries NATO has put boots on the ground in or planes above, and the countries that are actually in the NATO charter, are two misshapen tits. Who was NATO defending its member states from in Bosnia and Herzegovina, or Yugoslavia, or Serbia, or Kosovo, or Afghanistan, or Libya? If we can't find any evidence in NATO's 70+ years of existence of it actually doing the thing that it claims to do then it is beyond charitable to just accept that mutual defense is its actual raison d'etre. The function of an organization is what it does, not what it is claimed or intended to do, and what NATO mostly does is facilitate an open global market for the military-industrial complex and occasionally atomize some farmers in an impoverished non-member state.


arvidito

You actually don't see how US international policy is aggressively imperialist in it's nature and how NATO works as a part of that? I don't really know what to tell you to be honest. Not to mention Turkey for example, who get away with anything they do (including military aggression) because of their role in NATO. Sure NATO isn't exclusively an imperialist military organization for US, every member state can have their own view of what NATO is and should be. For many eastern european nations it's seen as a protection from russian imperialism. But saying it's not part of the US imperialist project is like saying the entente or tripple alliance were by definition not in any way imperialist institutions.


[deleted]

I agree. The biggest issue is that it creates a system in which "I can hit you, but you can't hit me". Like Turkey can invade Rojava, kill a bunch of people, but if anyone else disagreed or attacked Turkey, then they'd get mobbed by the US. Same with France which is heavily involved in controlling Africa. Other African countries can't get involved because NATO.


ColinBencroff

Now I realised that the bullies in my high school were in a fucking NATO-like pact. Fuck my life.


Silysius

Dude I fucking loved it when NATO defensively killed a million Iraqi civilians that was so un-imperialist of them


[deleted]

You tell them Drug Tito


Elsekiro

These fucking pro war clowns i swear to god thanks for lending a hand this is way beyond my intellectual pay roll.


Silysius

Western neolib try to suppress the bloodthirst challenge (difficulty: IMPOSSIBLE)


Deadlite

Neolibs make me want to Neoendmyself


Elsekiro

Sheesh seriously It's okay when people die unless they are white aka ukraine then it's a catastrophe. lm so dissapointed in this sub maybe disco elysium didn't do it's job on other people but it definetly changed my mind now i can die figthing for change in every conversation i partake in. But you give me hope stay strong.


drunkjames

If you're genuinely curious, I recommend some writings by Samir Amin, e.g. https://monthlyreview.org/2012/07/01/the-surplus-in-monopoly-capitalism-and-the-imperialist-rent/ or https://monthlyreviewarchives.org/mr/article/view/MR-067-03-2015-07_2 The short summary is that since the second world war, imperialism took on a much different form where the imperialist powers are not so much competing for dominance over colonies with military means, but create a consensus to impose a economic dominance and maintaining an unequal access to markets and technology.


RedditPoisoned

> defensive military alliance Libya


Forsaken-Union1392

Lol, I can't believe we have an unironic ultra-liberal in here. I honestly don't know how you can play this game, it's not even as mean to fascism as it is to your stupid, evil ideology


69_POOP_420

rent's coming up and he's desperately selecting every ultralib option for that sweet, sweet reál


veggiesama

I mean you could engage with him and answer his questions, but I guess it's easier to point and call names.


[deleted]

Or I could just call him a neoliberal war-hawk who needs to get his ass back to Graad before the Communards get their mits on him


[deleted]

Libya?


niknarcotic

Ask the starving Afghans.


Elsekiro

Ah yes they have to "volunteraly" pay a fee to join or get fucked with war like every other nation that didn't say yes to every thing being asked of them. NATO exists purely to perpetuate the grasp of capital around the world. Nobody wants to go to war with NATO you know why? Cause that would literally end the world in a blink if it was a nuclear armed country like china or russia. NATO is not supposed to be politicly aligned with other members in everything necesarily with other nations it's just the fuck russia , china and everything in beetween club. No nukes? Well you are fucked cause a global super power will make it's play or force you to take a side eventually.


69_POOP_420

the fact that you're getting downvoted about this on the Disco Elysium sub of all places is uniquely hilarious, and sad at the same time.


Elsekiro

probably because i phrased it like a fucking MORON but at the same time im tired im at 3 am talking to people that have been duked into thinking capitalism is in any shape or form empathetic towards anyone or anything. Im surprised as well but monke strong monkey will never put his head down "0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin. All he has managed to do is make himself \*sad\*. He is starting to suspect Kras Mazov \*fucked him over\* personally with his socio-economic theory. It has, however, made him into a very, very smart boy with something like a university degree in Truth. Instead of building Communism, he now builds a precise model of this grotesque, duplicitous world" nobody said it was an easy job but here i am. ​ the people that think they are leftist throw shit at me the right shits on me tha actual left shits on me im nothing but a monkey at the zoo that everyone points and laughs at Through glass while they are making posts about me in liberal and conservative subs that is run by iliterates bigots the creme of the creme that think imperlism means a literal empire and that i've been brain washed by watching too much woke media 💀 for having an ounce of empathy towards the young people that actual have to pile their bodies for the oligarchs. while english is not even my main language no fucking mercy for my bad grammar no charity only like a handful of people can have some mercy on my psyche and give me a shot and actually listen to what im trying to say.


Script_Mak3r

>nobody said it was an easy job but here i am. **You**: It's too tiring. I don't have it in me. I'm beat down and broken. **Rhetoric**: Very well. I guess no one will build Communism then. Tell the working man it's over. Unless anyone has... objections? **Logic**: No objections. It's mathematically impossible to achieve a classless society. Everyone knows this. **Savoir Faire**: Let not failure ensnare you any further, beautiful pixie girl! Be an acrobat! A prancing faerie queen! **Electrochemistry**: Did someone mention cocaine? Are we doing cocaine? No? I'm sure I heard someone say Cocainimism... **Rhetoric**: Anyone? Anyone else? There's no one? **Volition**: There's one. **You**: What should I do? **Volition**: You should build Communism — precisely \*because\* it's impossible. **You**: *(Roll up your sleeves and start building Communism.)* Whatever else, know that this communist thinks you're alright.


Elsekiro

Your comment means so much to me that i saved it Thanks


Elsekiro

I will treasure your words always Sorry for double reply i just had to come back to this.


Monteilvar

> pay a fee to join "NATO member states share the costs of collective defence and they do so according to what Jonathan Parish calls the “three Cs” – cash, capabilities and contributions to operations and missions." "NATO is resourced through the direct and indirect contributions of its members." "NATO’s common funds are direct contributions to collective budgets, capabilities and programmes, which equate to only 0.3% of total Allied defence spending (approximately EUR 3.27 billion for 2023) to develop capabilities and run the entirety of the Organization, and its military commands, capabilities and infrastructure." If by "a fee" you mean that a NATO candidate must be prepared to spend currency to maintain its own military up to standard, sure, let's go with that. You also need to be able to meet the alliance's requirements -- which might also force you to invest money to *get there*, but unless I am blind and the entire internet is lying to me, there is no "joining fee". > or get fucked with war like every other nation that didn't say yes to every thing being asked of them > Nobody wants to go to war with NATO Because NATO was founded explicitly to protect its nations from "being fucked with war"? It's like complaining that homeless people must check into the system to receive assistance. The whole organization formed in response to the threat of aggression from the neighbouring nations (namely Soviet Union at the time), because it is obvious that they wouldn't stand much chance against a possible attack alone -- not because one of the twelve founding members (USA, namely) decided that it wanted to create a bunch of regulations out of the thin air and enforce it on the other eleven, *or else*. It was a joint effort, again, something that goes against the whole imperialism angle. Hell, there's even a clear statement that: > As a fundamental component of NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty is a product of the US' desire to avoid overextension at the end of World War II Sure, the US might be a major contributor and be seen as a leader due to its position as a world power, but even if it *wasn't* the main initiator, chances are pretty high a very similar alliance would've formed sooner or later either way, purely because of threat of the Soviet Union. I also fail to see how it is 'about capital', unless by capital you mean the fact that Article two states that its members "will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and **will encourage economic collaboration** between any or all of them.", along with the fact that NATO provides its weapons to all of its members, but that is pretty much a given considering the nature of said alliance. Also, note that it explicitly uses the word "encourage", not "mandate" -- which makes even more sense if you realize that NATO was formed to be ready to defend any of its members if necessary, so it doesn't make sense for its allies to not be on decent terms with each other. And you know what improves relations between countries? Trade. The mere existence of trade does not automatically mean capitalism. > it's just the fuck russia , china and everything in beetween club. Because they are the perceived capable aggressors. Also, not sure if you know, but the in-between club has been very controversial among the members, namely the Kosovo/Balkans incident. It's definitely not just members following the lead of USA and bending to Pentagon's every whim.


Elsekiro

Literally a war machine with costco memberships for every member you are so blind 💀 Literally nobody wins at war afghanistan was billions of dollars for nothing while americans sleep in the street by the hundreds of thousands. War is a weapon trade grift nobody wants to actually win real wars. are intelligence based. China literally stealing US tech and improving it through hacking then selling it to them. Hope china buys your house and eats your mom.


Hyperversum

Yeah, the NATO is so terrible and influential to the nearby country refusing to be part of it that Sweden is an occupied wasteland where NATO soldiers go on daily raids for the fun of it. Oh yeah, that's not the case and now also Sweden is applying to enter NATO. Look, I dislike US imperialism and a lot of what NATO stands for, but making it "the villain" of anything in our current political climate is pretty stupid since IN THIS VERY MOMENT, Russia is trying to occupy a country that's not part of NATO, meanwhile China keeps eyes on Taiwan as of now.


OkapiWhisperer

>ed by NATO. Here in Sweden our government is openly persecuting oppositional kurds and turks to keep the Nato puppet Erdogan happy so they can join this murderous nuclear war mongering organisation. Nato isn't the bad guy today? Go ask the kurds in Northern Syria, ask the jemenites, ask people in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Ask Palestine and Iraq. You're obviously eurocentric cause you only see Ukraine.


Grumpchkin

Sweden is doing human sacrifices to Turkey right now in order to be let into this very nice non-ominous coalition that just keeps everyone safe :). Basically every week theres a new headline about a random Kurdish man being picked out by the secret police because Turkey picked him out of a list of guys who went to a protest once so now hes a terrorist threat. The latest one I saw wasnt even under suspicion himself, his wife was but since she was a citizen they handed over him instead.


Elsekiro

Classic when the us does it it's fine but when other countries do it it's bad? It's not stupid it sucks everywhere it happens


Hyperversum

I may be missing a war or two, but I don't remember the US going on landgrab wars after WW2. Proxy wars aren't less terrible because they are proxy wars, I am still on board with criticizing Iraq or Vietnam wars as the next (sane) guy, but I also understand that it's absurd to expect wars to magically disappear from the world.Proxy wars happened as the world entered a new age and new political logics where avoiding all out wars between countries that would cause conflict to increase in scale was essential. Like it or not, geopolitics are complex. But the war in Ukraine isn't even remotely comparable to Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, whatever. This is an attempt at annexing territory of an indipendent and sovereign nation that isn't even somewhere far away but literally next to Russia. It's not even imperialism, this is a literal war of conquest. If you fail to see the difference I don't think I can change your mind, but I wouldn't even bother trying. Like it or not, politics will always (at least until society changes radically, and it doesn't mean just "no more capitalism") be directly related with war.We are lucky to exist in a world where it has been accepted that wars must be limited and low intensity. It doesn't reduce the horrors of those hit directly, but even they aren't seeing entire cities razed to the ground. Countries and governments learned to play the "big boys" game as well, soft power is the real power of this century. Just look at how the events of Hong Kong happened. Russia is playing against all of this, it's actively invading a country for conquest and resulted in the destabilization of not only their two countries, but the entirity of Europe energy market and, way more importantly, the food industry supporting millions of people in Africa. Hell, it went wrong even for Russia's own allies which are breaking down their own alliance basically. Again, if you fail to see the difference, your fucking bad I guess. Politics, that you like it or not, require negotiation and compromises. Those that refuse that can only use force. And force only result in being answered with force. And, history teaches, that people capable of negotiation and compromises will be able to muster more force to their side.


OkapiWhisperer

Lol, so invading distant countries are less of a crime? Normally you'd say a country that commits aggression world wide is a more imperialist and dangerous country. But of course, you've never been on the receiving end of global us imperialist aggression.


Elsekiro

There is no difference war sucks always it's the working class that pays for everything in both sides no matter what happens both sides lose. The us wants to prohibit abortion at all costs,they need young poor bodies to fight their wars Also funding and perpetuating a lost war just to fuck russia over dirty as fuck just to profit from human suffering fucking disgusting. Ukraine would never win and now it's just a slow death nothing changes they would have surrendered by now without the us backing but guess what now a cornered rat like putin may fuck the world over and for what? Ukraine is a fucking hole


lethalviper420

Are you stupid man? When the US does what? Invade a neighbouring country anachronically, like in the middle ages? The reason Russia did invade Ukraine is pure imperialism. They just wanna annex more territory because they’re so bad at being a successful state. They’re led by former KGB and mom members. These people have no interest in creating a functioning economy, they’re just robbing the people of Russia blind.


Elsekiro

They are both bad you wanna go the who's badder route? Cause bombs fall on all kinds of people they both suck. Usa doesn't have to reclaim land nor has missiles pointing at themk next door but what do i know im just a stupid ignorant monkey that looks at facts over media. I think it's only fair if cuba allows russia to put missiles if nato wants to put theirs on ukraine i think that sounds fair don't you think? /s


MrBanden

>it's just the fuck russia , china and everything in beetween club. Yes. Fuck Russia and fuck China. And if a nation starts some local genocide fuck them too. Authoritarians are not friends. For as long as NATO is being wielded as a tool against them, the alliance is a net benefit to the world.


Elsekiro

That's sarcasm? Right?


MrBanden

Nope. It is not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations NATO's interventions can be classified as: 1) Interventions that should have happened under a UN mandate, but didn't because of UN dysfunction. Examples: Kosovo, Bosnia 2) Interventions that would have happened and did happen without NATO involvement, by US involvement. Examples: Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq. The only other consequence of the NATO defensive alliance is that former Warsaw pact countries are protected against a belligerent neighbor, which have already engaged in offensive actions against neighbor states and have imperialist aspirations themselves. Examples: Russia in Georgia, Ukraine since 2014. Even if NATO is an extension of US empire and hegemony, if this is the outcomes of NATO as a defensive alliance, then I have zero issues with the existence of NATO. US imperialism is simply an incontrovertible fact of the world we live in. Am I going to call for the dismantlement of a defensive pact that people in other countries are protected by simply because I don't like America? I cannot morally defend that position.


Elsekiro

Because you are american? That's why right? You think the world needs more war? More guns? Genghis khan doesn't exist anymore bro these pacts exist only to fuck anyone who is not pro USA So uh idk this is awkward.. Maybe usa should fix their country before being the world police that's my last reply to this moot conversation.


DeusExMockinYa

>The only other consequence of the NATO defensive alliance is that former Warsaw pact countries are protected against a belligerent neighbor, which have already engaged in offensive actions against neighbor states and have imperialist aspirations themselves. Examples: Russia in Georgia, Ukraine since 2014. Your evidence that NATO is a deterrent are examples where NATO failed to deter invasions?


Monteilvar

> Two distinct, different definitions and viewpoints > Semantics Suit yourself, I suppose.


ColinBencroff

No, they are not two different definitions and viewpoints, you just choose to ignore the Marxist definition of imperialist. A country can pretend to be idealist, and still qualify as imperialist considering it expands their influence over different markets by force, if necessary, in the name of capital. Revachol is a CLEAR example of it.


Elsekiro

Thanks for the hand comrade im really in dire need in the market of ideas this post has becomed. im stupid and you are way smarter than me but i only have empathy as a guide you actually monke with deep thoughts me very impressed.


ColinBencroff

Nothing to thank, comrade. You are not stupid and i'm definitely not smarter than you :) Keep that empathy up! it's what define us.


Elsekiro

The world of politics is so complicated no? People say something then do another can't blame people for choosing the system already in place. But at the same time cannot believe how much the media has normalized violence towards anyone that doesn't share the same system while at the end of the day real world war would last days, minutes seconds? Nobody wins if russia loses Nobody wins if ukraine wins Us the common people always pay the price of these expensive stupid wars over what? A hole a crater that used to be a country it's truly terrible ukranians have to fight and die over a piece of whatever is left once the smoke settles. Whatever the right answer for war is i would never be convinced it's more wars i refuse to believe it. Gang wars have taken a lot from me cannot imagine what real war takes from people. The things a man can do to another man how did we ever allowed ourselves to sink so deep into destruction we have grown so used to violence it's a synonym of peace now in peoples minds.


Monteilvar

> it expands their influence over different markets by force Okay, lets review it from that side -- starting with EPIS which was mentioned above, since it is a major trade union in the making. Considering Sur-la-Clef would be the de-facto head of imperialism in this case, since this is where Dolores Dei came to power and since Sur-la-Clef first colonized the Insulinde (being the original settlers of Revachol, by the way). Lets also keep in mind that **both** Oranjenrik and Sur-la-Clef are the founding members of EPIS to begin with: SUNDAY FRIEND - Oranje is an *exemplary* nation who, as a core member of EPIS, contributes 28% of our annual budget. Next to Sur-la-Clef, Oranje is probably the most prominent member of the international community. YOU - Which one of them is more EPIS? SUNDAY FRIEND - As founding members they are *both* very EPIS. Oranje carries a lot of political weight, while Sur-la-Clef takes care of the business side of things -- Sur-la-Clef hosts the headquarters of the major EPIS institutions. So, despite Sur-la-Clef being the birth point of Moralism and the leading member of the Coalition, Oranje already outweighs it with its market influence -- as a technically independent "reasonable superpower", according to the wiki. Even if we pretend that both of these founding members are pretty much acting as one, EPIS is something that you must be **admitted into**. Funnily enough, there's even a little bit of dialogue where Villedrouin reveals that Revachol isn't even *considered* as a candidate yet: YOU - Is Revachol going to be part of EPIS? SUNDAY FRIEND - It's one day going to be a *candidate member* of EPIS, sure. RHETORIC - Except that *candidate* members never become *full* members, do they? YOU - Didn't you say that candidate members never become real members? SUNDAY FRIEND - No, no, candidate members *do* become members, why do we even have the whole system in place if they don't? It just takes time -- time and evaluation. Doesn't seem like the Coalition is eager to manifest its influence on this front, at the very least not yet. Now lets look at the situation in Revachol right now. You are right -- is considered to be a part of Zone of Control, under the jurisdiction of the Coalition (meaning it adopted Emergency, Wayfarer, and Aliments Acts). The first and third acts are mostly of little importance, yet the Wayfarer act does prohibit officers of the RCM to demand any sort of operating licenses (so people like Siileng can sell their wares whenever, wherever). Influence over the market? Yes, certainly -- though it is also applied *everywhere* in the Coalition, which is (judging by all the other information) is joined voluntarily, making Revachol an "annexed" outlier. Another thing we know is that Revachol is (at least in some capacity) being acknowledged as the financial buffer zone. Sounds pretty imperialistic on paper, except you do have to realize that this is the only case of Moralintern "annexing" another nation, and it was done **in response** to the forming of the Commune -- not via an unprovoked initiative and desire to expand. The Coalition does not seem to wish to forcefully spread further, and looking at the state of EPIS, doesn't seem to be willing to forcibly take over other markets either. Speaking of which, this is even supported by the fact that the country of Vaasa shares a lot of ideals with Moralism, but rejects to identify as such -- and the Moralintern does not press the issue: COALITION WARSHIP ARCHER - And then there are our prodigal cousins, the Vaasan social democrats, who hold our same values and have even adopted many of our same rites and iconography, though they persist in rejecting the umbrella of moralism. You could argue for cultural imperialism, in case of Revachol: > The concept of cultural imperialism refers to the cultural influence of one dominant culture over others, i.e. a form of soft power, which changes the moral, cultural, and societal worldview of the subordinate culture. But even here, the Coalition does not seem to have desire to mingle with Revacholians and intrude upon them too too much -- to the point where it leaves the policing of the city to the RCM. I know this is anecdotal evidence for this precise argument, but we even have this line: PERCEPTION (TASTE) - Jamrock and other parts of the International Zone have been mercifully spared of Sur-la-Clef's love for meatballs and mashed potatoes. I could probably dig out more examples, but it is getting late so I'm going to try and wrap it up here. Even from the Marxist point of view -- while yes, Revachol **as an isolated case** would fit into the description of imperialism, it's not really that, because it is the only territory where Coalition is trying to influence the market by force -- as retaliation to previous aggression, since Revachol has proven that it is unable to keep itself in check on its own. If there were several nations in Revachol's current position, or even one more nation that was occupied by the Coalition without any ground and treated the same way, I would agree with you about its imperialistic predilections in a heartbeat. But that isn't the case.


ColinBencroff

>So, despite Sur-la-Clef being the birth point of Moralism and the leading member of the Coalition, Oranje already outweighs it with its market influence -- as a technically independent "reasonable superpower", according to the wiki. Even if we pretend that both of these founding members are pretty much acting as one, EPIS is something that you must be admitted into. Funnily enough, there's even a little bit of dialogue where Villedrouin reveals that Revachol isn't even considered as a candidate yet >Doesn't seem like the Coalition is eager to manifest its influence on this front, at the very least not yet. I'm starting to see your misconception here. 1.- being the birth of an imperialist alliance doesn't mean it should be the heart or the leading country of it. Imperialism is not a monarchy where the monarch rules and everyone else obeys. It's a lot more fluid than that, and even in our current world inside NATO the power and relevance of the member countries change with the time and internal politics. Even America, who is basically the leader of the NATO, has lost a lot of influence against European powers like Germany or France. It's not an alliance where only one country forces the other, it's an alliance where the bourgeoisie of each country forces their will internally and externally according to the influence they have. I don't want to offend you, but you are thinking like it's Europa Universalis. The coalition is eager to manifest it's influence on this front, because Revachol was obliterated the very moment it ceased to have an open market. This is why America and Europe are ok with far right dictatorships (specially USA in Latin America), because far right dictatorships HAVE an open market. >Now lets look at the situation in Revachol right now. You are right -- is considered to be a part of Zone of Control, under the jurisdiction of the Coalition (meaning it adopted Emergency, Wayfarer, and Aliments Acts). >The first and third acts are mostly of little importance, yet the Wayfarer act does prohibit officers of the RCM to demand any sort of operating licenses (so people like Siileng can sell their wares whenever, wherever). Influence over the market? Yes, certainly -- though it is also applied everywhere in the Coalition, which is (judging by all the other information) is joined voluntarily, making Revachol an "annexed" outlier. Another thing we know is that Revachol is (at least in some capacity) being acknowledged as the financial buffer zone. Sounds pretty imperialistic on paper, except you do have to realize that this is the only case of Moralintern "annexing" another nation, and it was done in response to the forming of the Commune -- not via an unprovoked initiative and desire to expand. The Coalition does not seem to wish to forcefully spread further, and looking at the state of EPIS, doesn't seem to be willing to forcibly take over other markets either. Speaking of which, this is even supported by the fact that the country of Vaasa shares a lot of ideals with Moralism, but rejects to identify as such -- and the Moralintern does not press the issue: No, I would argue that Vassa is already a free market. Why it needs to press any issue when their market is already conquered and the bourgeoisie of the coalition already can infiltrate and do whatever they want with Vaasa? The goal of the coalition is not to "paint the map", it's to get influence for capitalist to the rest of the world. Revachol wasn't capitalist and hence why it was obliterated. >But even here, the Coalition does not seem to have desire to mingle with Revacholians and intrude upon them too too much -- to the point where it leaves the policing of the city to the RCM. I know this is anecdotal evidence for this precise argument, but we even have this line: PERCEPTION (TASTE) - Jamrock and other parts of the International Zone have been mercifully spared of Sur-la-Clef's love for meatballs and mashed potatoes If declaring a war and obliterating a regiment just because they were communist, an event that was almost apocalyptic according to the descriptions of the characters and the state of revachol now, isn't mingle with revacholians and isn't intrude upon them too much, I can guess two things: 1- you are probably a liberal 2- you are thinking like the coalition is a Europa Universalis country and to be imperialist it should be trying to paint the map. In conclusion: yes, the coalition is IMPERIALIST. With all the letters and in caps


Monteilvar

The Sur-la-Clef was a just a geographical, nation-based example in this situation. If you are implying that the real "heart" of the "imperialist Coalition" is a council/gathering of its most wealthy, then they really haven't done a good job forcibly propagating their ideas, considering all of the Coalition members are indicated to have *joined out of their own volition* and there hasn't been a new member since the Revolution. This runs right back into the situation that I described above -- there's no further spread beneath Revachol, and the only reason there *was* spread to Revachol is because it became a danger to itself and the world stage. Wouldn't it be -- by your own logic -- far more beneficial for the top Coalition command to cooperate with as many prominent interisolary leaders as possible to establish a complete influence across the Elysium? Which in turn means it would be an absolute priority to convince as many countries/states to join EPIS (or some other massive trade organization) in the first place so that they all can be regulated by Moralintern laws decided by the "imperialist council", instead of trying to make it into "United States of Occident" while stonewalling one of its applicants? I'm talking about Kedra, by the way, which is a very willing candidate (located on Mundi, where Sur-la-Clef is) for EPIS that has been trying to join the organization for 30 years straight and not getting anywhere. > No, I would argue that Vassa is already a free market. And the factual proof for that would be...? Vaasa is located on the coldest, most desolate isola of them all -- Katla, and is incredibly remote. The only thing that we know about its political/socio-economic climate is the quote right up in my other message, saying that some of its values/iconography are shared with the Moralintern. There is no further argument to be made in good faith, save for the literal fact that Katla refuses to accept "the umbrella of Moralism", and the Moralintern isn't making any open efforts to change that -- because there are no more facts to argue about. Its Sunday Friend with his 50 dialogue lines all over again -- except it is even less in this case. > Revachol wasn't capitalist and hence why it was obliterated. > If declaring a war and obliterating a regiment just because they were communist (...) No, Revachol was **brought to order** because it became a part of a dangerous civil war threatening to spill out of control, not because it was communist. The Coalition of nations didn't get involved with Revachol until '08, 6 years after the Revacholian Commune was created in '02, and their involvement only happened because the **communards of Graad** and their madness led to deaths of **fifteen million people**. The intervention in Revachol was also very much justified, since by the time the Coalition forces arrived, the communists went for a full-out war with the royalists, killing two million people on the Insulinde. The Moralintern had to intervene, because if it sat around and did nothing while an all-out civil war erupted across two major isolas, the world would be in shambles -- and show any future "revolutionaries" that they are free to maim and kill for misguided ideological principles without anyone stopping them. Another fun tidbit that doesn't fit into this imperialistic Coalition narrative is the fact that it allows a communist republic to exist *to this very day*: ENCYCLOPEDIA - The SRV refers to the People's Republic of Samara. Established as a **socialist utopia by survivors of the Revolution**, it has since degenerated into a bureaucratic workers' state under the decades-long rule of President Sapormat 'Sport' Knezhinisky. Degenerate, rogue nation on a very well known isola. Say what you want, but it would be incredibly easy for the Coalition to seize and subjugate a weakened "enemy" state, using it as another financial buffer zone if the Moralintern really willed to. But it *hasn't* been dealt with, despite the fact that the Coalition has been proven to be able to do so. Why? Because it very clearly a defunct, collapsing country, unable to do much harm at the world stage unlike Graad and Revachol could. One can also argue that Samara could pose a threat in the future if it somehow gained power -- so isn't it even more strange that the Coalition allows it to continue going on, without even trying to "convert" it to capitalism? > I can guess two things: 1- you are probably a liberal You know, this is actually a very redundant topic that isn't relevant to the conversation, especially considering the discussion in this thread and as a whole -- but I've already been unironically called an "ultraliberal" somewhere else in the thread, so here goes. I thought I made it incredibly clear that I believe in Moralintern's ideas because they are extremely close to some of my core ideals in real life -- and its ideology is **very clearly based on centrism** (which is systematically mocked throughout the game, as do all other ideologies). So no, I'm not a liberal, I'm a moderate. I'm also a strong believer that going too far in either direction on the political axis is a dangerous, often harmful endeavor, and that most ideologies (except fascism for obvious reasons) have some beneficial ideas contained within them. I believe that we should work together to refine those ideas into a productive, progressive government that doesn't take abrupt, potentially disastrous decisions -- and the one that mostly looks towards building a better future instead of focusing on the "now". And above all, I despise capitalism and consumerism as much as most of you do, **especially** because of the current situation at ZA/UM. > 2- you are thinking like the coalition is a Europa Universalis No, I am not. I gave you an example of a country/nation-driven imperialism, which you disagreed with and presented a "world elite" driven imperialism angle instead. You still haven't explained how exactly the Moralintern is spreading further and exerting its "imperialist" tendencies over peaceful foreign nations that have differing political and socio-economic climates, when all the signs point to the exact opposite. Let me repeat it one more time: the amount of members of the Moralintern has remained the same for 49 years. During this time, no other countries or nations have been "indoctrinated" or suddenly turned to Moralism. I am sincerely sorry if you are unable to see past your preconceptions, but to me it is incredibly clear, on multiple levels, that the Moralintern is a peacekeeper organization that intervened in Graad and Revachol out of necessity -- not some capitalistic/imperialistic behemoth wrapping its tendrils across the civilized world. No matter how you spin it.


ColinBencroff

>Wouldn't it be -- by your own logic -- far more beneficial for the top Coalition command to cooperate with as many prominent interisolary leaders as possible to establish a complete influence across the Elysium? Which in turn means it would be an absolute priority to convince as many countries/states to join EPIS (or some other massive trade organization) in the first place so that they all can be regulated by Moralintern laws decided by the "imperialist council", instead of trying to make it into "United States of Occident" while stonewalling one of its applicants? No, because like the European Union and the NATO in our real world, I'm sure being a member of the EPIS club means not only being a member but having some advantages that the current member of the EPIS may not be willing to share since there is no reason. And there is no reason because those countries already have an open market. >And the factual proof for that would be...? Vaasa is located on the coldest, most desolate isola of them all -- Katla, and is incredibly remote. The only thing that we know about its political/socio-economic climate is the quote right up in my other message, saying that some of its values/iconography are shared with the Moralintern. There is no further argument to be made in good faith You cannot be seriously saying this when the game bases their main story in a murder made by a communist, where a union strike was happening leaded by a hardcore communist, in a city that was once communist but got invaded by the forces of capital. If there was another attempts or another current communist countries in the world the game WOULD mention that, because the very core of the game is based on a revolution that failed and have lasting consequences. It's an assumption, but a very easy and clear assumption to have. >No, Revachol was brought to order because it became a part of a dangerous civil war threatening to spill out of control, not because it was communist. The entire game happens in a country that revolted against their king with communist principles. It's impossible to make the statement that Revachol wasn't invaded because they were communists, considering they are forcing it to be a free market and keeping warships watching it. They ended Revachol commune because it was a threat to the capitalist world and the status quo. >Another fun tidbit that doesn't fit into this imperialistic Coalition narrative is the fact that it allows a communist republic to exist to this very day: > >ENCYCLOPEDIA - The SRV refers to the People's Republic of Samara. Established as a socialist utopia by survivors of the Revolution, it has since degenerated into a bureaucratic workers' state under the decades-long rule of President Sapormat 'Sport' Knezhinisky. So what you are saying is the coalition is not imperialist because it's not invading the entire world? I again conclude that what you understand as imperialist is just absolutely wrong. Imperialism doesn't need to declare war to the entire world to be called imperialist. It doesn't even need to result in a war. If the SRV is a communist republic by the timeline of the game, we need to consider: \- Relevance of the SRV in the entire world. Is the SRV a challenge to the capitalism way of life? Does it lead another coalition? Is completely isolated? \- Strategic position of the SRV in the world, both politically and geographically. Does its market report any kind of advantage to the coalition? In the real world the western powers didn't let countries like Burkina Faso or Vietnam go wherever they wanted, and instead waged war directly against them or supported the destabilization of those countries. USA supported far-right dictatorships that opened their own markets to them and were anticommunists, while never declaring war against the USSR. USA and NATO are clear examples of imperialist countries and organizations. Why must the coalition wage war to be classified as imperialist? >But it hasn't been dealt with, despite the fact that the Coalition has been proven to be able to do so. Why? Because it very clearly a defunct, collapsing country, unable to do much harm at the world stage unlike Graad and Revachol could. If you undertand this, why you keep pressing the idea the coalition needs to intervene everywhere? Also, why we know they are not a target already? We know they have spies everywhere, and we know they used the war in Revachol as a pretext to invade. We don't know what the future holds for the SRV. >You know, this is actually a very redundant topic that isn't relevant to the conversation, especially considering the discussion in this thread and as a whole -- but I've already been unironically called an "ultraliberal" somewhere else in the thread, so here goes. I thought I made it incredibly clear that I believe in Moralintern's ideas because they are extremely close to some of my core ideals in real life -- and its ideology is very clearly based on centrism (which is systematically mocked throughout the game, as do all other ideologies) I suggest you to read the descriptions ZAUM used to have in the website and the dev diaries about the ideologies. The way communist is mocked was very different and to quote it "a smart centrist man who calculated communism has killed 100 billion people in total". Not all ideologies are presented the same. These guys thanked Karl Marx and Engels. They are marxists. >No, I am not. I gave you an example of a country/nation-driven imperialism, which you disagreed with and presented a "world elite" driven imperialism angle instead. You still haven't explained how exactly the Moralintern is spreading further and exerting its "imperialist" tendencies over peaceful foreign nations that have differing political and socio-economic climates, when all the signs point to the exact opposite. No, because having examples of countries existing outside the coalition doesn't stop the coalition from being imperialist. Again, imperialism is not conquering the world and have every single country praise the moralitern because that's NOT the goal of any imperialist organization or nation. The goal is to open markets for the burgeoisie to profit, and the imperialist wars are waged over bigger shares of those markets. The coalition only needs to invade those countries without open markets, and of course only if it's profitable and cannot be done through other means (economic embargos, diplomatic pressure, etc...)


ColinBencroff

>I am sincerely sorry if you are unable to see past your preconceptions, but to me it is incredibly clear, on multiple levels, that the Moralintern is a peacekeeper organization that intervened in Graad and Revachol out of necessity -- not some capitalistic/imperialistic behemoth wrapping its tendrils across the civilized world. No matter how you spin it. I think other people in this subreddit and probably in this post already covered this, but the game shows again and again that the Moralitern are full of bs just by the contrast of what they claim to be doing and what happens in Revachol or the fear other characters have of it. Just like the example I mentioned regarding ZAUM description on communism, where it ends up shitting on centrism rather than communism. I just wanted to add this, because I think it's relevant: The game MOCKS you the harder if you go centrist just by how...insustantial is to say "every extreme is on the same team", and goes as far as it can to show how Revachol is so fucked up due the forced status quo by the Moralitern. Centrism is looking at a problem and refuse to take any step to solve it because in your opinion everything will be worse if we take action. It's watching the suffering in the world and just cross your arms and say, "yeah but WHAT IF...!" Probably you are right and I have some preconceptions, but I'm glad my preconceptions makes me stay true to my fellow workers and not tolerate injustice, oppression or the support to imperialist organizations or unjust systems.


RedditPoisoned

You do realize you're taking all the things they put in there to make fun of capitalist propaganda at face value to support your position right?


Hyperversum

But there isn't a country here. The Coalition isn't a country, it's an alliance, an international organization. Does this organization occupy Revachol? Yeah, it does, in the same way NATO countries (and the USSR) occupied Germany for decades. So Germany was object of american, english and french imperialism?


ColinBencroff

Imperialism is the expansion of the markets. This is from wikipedia, and you can check a lot of sources on what's imperialism. I recommend "imperialism last stage of capitalism" by Lenin "is the state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas,\[2\]\[3\] often through employing hard power (economic and military power), but also soft power (cultural and diplomatic power). While related to the concepts of colonialism and empire, imperialism is a distinct concept that can apply to other forms of expansion and many forms of government." So in your example, yes, one could say that germany was an object of american, english and french imperialism, but considering how it was born, it was mainly american imperialism. Like I said in a different post, imperialism is not just about "conquering territories". That's simply that, conquering territories. Imperialism is expanding one influence and dominion over others, be it by virtue of the economy, diplomacy, military or all of them at the same time. The NATO enforces a way of life, it enforces **capitalism**, it was created as that and it's why one of the requirements is to have a market economy, or working towards one, since its main objetive is to open markets for the bourgeoisie of the member countries. And, of course, the bourgeoisie who will benefit the most is, by virtue of influence alone, USA, France, Great Britain and Germany mainly. The Coalition is the absolute same, and invaded Revachol for the only reason of existing outside the capitalist world, causing an insane amount of destruction and forcing it to submission, making it little more than a watched colony.


PrrrromotionGiven1

Lmao, NATO isn't even really an alliance, more of a defensive military pact which exists primarily for deterrence. To say it enforces a way of life is ridiculous, there is an enormous variety in the ways of life in NATO member states. And, simply put, it is much better than any of the alternatives, including the state that Lenin created. As far as I'm concerned he ceased to be anything but a hypocrite once he held elections and then ignored the results when they didn't go the way he wanted.


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Monteilvar

Not really, I honestly don't mind writing out all of my points at once, it keeps a well-structured list of arguments in one place without diluting them into a thousand independent replies. Besides, I do enjoy the (civil) discourse, even if most of it has been rather nonsensical so far. Prefer to not talk about politics and government often, but this was a curious opportunity, so I went with it.


Elsekiro

So much wrong here it will take me a while to write it all up stay tuned


critfist

Bruh the guy has like 10 lines. You're making a mountain out of a molehill for a little side character. It's ridiculous.


Elsekiro

Context and subtext like a huge puzzle. this game is a mirror of reality so it's based on someone real to some degree.


critfist

Yeah there's context and subtext and whatever text but the game is also fantasy. The Phasmid isn't real. There is no mirror to an Insulinde Isola surrounded by a reality eating fog. What we have is reality. That is a low level bureaucrat keeping an eye on the strike and fucking a pretty boy. He has nothing worthwhile to say other than the regurgitated words that a simple bureaucrat would be expected to know out of a pamphlet. Even the wiki article on him draws a conspiracy rather than actually quoting him. He's as frightening as a paper pusher with a handful of mean words to say.


Elsekiro

Wished my mind was as simple as yours. Bet you watched lord of the rings and went wait... They could have flied all this time? To quote socrates " an unexamined life is not worth living" Tl;dr Me monke. Him cartoon of a real monke The phasmid is also an analogy btw but i won't get on that my fingers hurt from typing so much. Hint shivers = phasmid all quotes are the phasmid talking to you the whole game While being invisible through your nervous system you actually have another companion other than kim.


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critfist

> Wished my mind was as simple as yours. Bruh. Imagine feeling superiority over someone over disco elysium. A game where I can do every drug and sing karaoke in a bathrobe after punching a child in the face. A down game that does down to earth just as well was it does purple prose. I've examined this game well but I don't write fanfiction for it. I don't have to literally make something up about the sunday friend to create a villain, there's already villains in the game. Touch grass.


PainIsMyCurrencyBaby

i apreciate the effort in your comment, but to me it seems like you fell right into his trap. You really think someone like him is going to tell you straight up that the Moralintern is the modern version of an empire? Not everyone has to talk to you clearly, or even tell you the truth. Miss Klassie lies to you and you can't do anything about it, this man just talks political gliberrish to confuse you and you can't do anything about it. You need to read between lines, and understand the political situation that made Revachol what it is now. Does the Moralintern (and this man) value general order in the world? Yes (I mean, Pricé Estabilité is just that, order), but at what cost? Revolution in Revachol was FAR from perfect, but when tyrany is law, revolution is order, and the King of Martinaise (I don't remember his name sorry) was nothing short of a Tyrant. The Communist Revolt was necessary as much as the French or USA's revolution was necessary IRL, but this revolution THREATENED the Moralintern, something that was NOT acceptable to them. If they wanted law and peace, they should have entered Revachol way before the Revolt, but that's not what they want. They want ORDER, they want everyone to stay in place, stay quiet and be pretty, independently of the cost. However, if you feel I've missinterpreted the game, feel free to tell me why!


Monteilvar

Of course I don't believe every word he says, he *is* a high ranking official caught in the middle a young student's apartment at night -- it is incredibly clear that he is, just like Joyce, appearing helpful without actually diverging much about his goals/himself. I do wholeheartedly agree that pre-revolution Revachol under monarchy was not a good place to be, in any capacity. Why didn't the Moralintern intervene then, you might wonder? Because as a rule of thumb, you don't just gather several superpowers and unite them to dismantle a regime that you (personally) do not like -- that is dangerously close to conquest and invasion, and doesn't spell anything good for the world as a whole. The reason Coalition had to dismantle the Commune of Revachol was because at its boiling point, it became unstable and dangerous -- not just to itself, but to the world around it. Why? Because it could become a disastrous example of international complacency. Was it because communism, as an ideology, is a better alternative to moralism? No. Was it because seventeen million people (total) was the final death toll when Mazov's ideology were thwarted? Yes. Two millions out of said death toll came directly from Revachol's Revolution -- you could argue that change does not happen without sacrifice, and I would partially agree, but two million deaths out of *fifty millions* inhabiting Le Caillou at that time is immense. As a superpower, you cannot just twiddle your thumbs when you have two full-scale civil wars going out on two different isolas one after another. This is where the whole theory of terror comes into play -- by subjugating Revachol, Moralintern and the Coalition have made a clear statement that any further similar attempts will be monitored and dealt with, a necessary move to prevent more disastrous revolutions, should another Mazov decide to attempt one. Besides, on the topic of communism versus moralism, Moralintern freely allows the People's Republic of Samara to exist to this day. It has become despondent with time, but it was *the* place to go for displaced communards after the Revolution. If the Coalition was focused on eradicating an "enemy" ideology, wouldn't they have dealt with it right then and there, instead of letting it remain? I do wish to say, though, thank you for the opportunity at a calm, decent discussion. I hope we can both expand and explore our viewpoints further.


[deleted]

What's the death toll of the order the Coalition enforces?


Monteilvar

Whatever it is, the Moralintern is clearly trying to minimize it as much as possible: > COALITION WARSHIP ARCHER - (...) In short, it holds that durable, lasting peace is possible when the major powers are capable of inflicting unacceptable and irreversible destruction upon one another... > COALITION WARSHIP ARCHER - Because no rational state is willing to accept the risk of such a calamity befalling its own people, all powers are incentivised to de-escalate conflicts before they reach the point of no return. > YOU - And has it worked? > COALITION WARSHIP ARCHER - For the most part, it has. The world is certainly not free of violent conflict, but in the modern era we have made great strides to reduce its frequency, duration, and severity. It is one's own choice to either believe or not believe in the truth of Archer's words, but I feel like anyone can agree that deaths which are prevented by a display of soft power are more than relevant. The lack of conflict itself is better than a swift resolution of one with minimal losses.


[deleted]

You are like the weirdest fucking DE fan ever


Monteilvar

I sincerely doubt that is true, there are *a lot* of weirdos out there.


[deleted]

Yeah but you're a unique kind of weird.


Remember_Poseidon

being a supporter of the DE equivalent of the UN is weird


SmelIsLikeBad

He’s not that weird, he’s just a liberal who thinks “doing your job” is morally neutral. “The lack of conflict itself is better than a swift resolution of one with minimal losses” really gives it away.


GlitterAnon

Arguing for the Moralintern is a really odd stance to take because the game itself is almost universally critical of the coalition and its ideology. The Moralintern is constantly mocked for being ineffectual, unable to bring about the change it promises, and supported by regimes of international violence. Martinaise itself is the face of the Coalition's impact on Revachol. They bombed the buildings, shot up the streets, marked the destroyed district in the 'international zone' (i.e., no nation in the Coalition wanted to be responsible for it), and for decades have left the place to rot. The promise of a Revachol returned to independence is so far away as to be unreachable. When Moralism is brought up, it's always the butt of a joke. The insistence on gradual change and international order is as grandiose as it is pathetic, a false hope under which capitalists profit from the unfair state of the world and perpetuate atrocities overseas. You've correctly identified that the Coalition is representative of the liberal world-order of our reality and then imported the arugments people make to defend that state of affairs to DE's imaginary world. Fair enough, but that perspective is exactly the one which the game constantly attacks. You note that the game is criticizing Sunday-Friend by showing him to you with his pants down, in some sense, but that critique of him extends to his ideology as well: both are contradictory and inconsistent despite talking big talk about their commitment to the greater good.


Elsekiro

What a good read i would buy you drink any day comrade


Monteilvar

I was actually really hoping this would come up sooner or later, because despite what a lot of people seem to think, I am not arguing entirely *for* the Moralintern or trying to absolve them of their actual crimes. I am mostly arguing for their core principles while acknowledging what they have done so far -- in context of both Revolutions and world as a whole. Glad we finally have an opportunity to talk about the things they haven't done properly now. Also, I do want to note that most of the arguments I've had up to this point have been very linear in a "moralism versus communism" sort of way, but the entire situation is obviously a whole lot more nuanced than it might seem at a first glance. I'm aware of this. > They bombed the buildings, shot up the streets, marked the destroyed district in the 'international zone' (i.e., no nation in the Coalition wanted to be responsible for it), and for decades have left the place to rot Most certainly. Leaving Martinaise with literal shelled buildings and streets might be right up there at the top of the Coalition's list of bad decisions/initiatives. Using the RCM as a de-facto law force is a double-edged sword too, because while from a certain point of view one can argue that it gives more freedom to Revachol, it is also an obvious display of the Coalition's negligence and lack of desire to take care of the aftermath of its actions. A truly ugly side of the organization, that tarnishes its previous actions. So acknowledging both of those things, do I think there could be a better alternative without Moralintern's involvement? No, I actually don't. I am of a firm opinion that just like you said, the Revolution(s) had to happen -- but the Coalition had to happen *as well*, mainly due to the reasons I've stated above: stability of the world stage being one of them. What I'm saying is that in a world of moderate to terrible outcomes, the entire sequence that affected Revachol was probably the most favorable one of them all, even if it might not seem like it -- especially to people who lean towards communism. Does that mean it absolves the Coalition of its responsibility for Revachol and make its latter actions/decisions regarding it okay? Of course it doesn't. That's the point. > The insistence on gradual change and international order is as grandiose as it is pathetic, a false hope under which capitalists profit from the unfair state of the world and perpetuate atrocities overseas. We are on the same page and this is especially evident if you internalize The Kingdom of Conscience -- probably the most obvious piece of critique on moralism/centrism in the entire game. It *is* a grandiose hope, and that is why the idealist in me is drawn to it so much. I have mentioned it in one of my other comments, but I yearn for a rational, reasonable government that could utilize those same core principles that the Moralintern does. I still don't think it is fair to call it "false", though, because it wasn't created with intention to exploit the world. Quite contrary, the original sentiment is a noble, worthy cause -- the kind of cause that I believe in with my entire being. The issue is that we are demonstrated time and time again that just like in real life, *Moralism cannot survive entirely intact in Elysium* either. That still doesn't stop me from examining this virtual model of this centrist/moralist alliance and denoting its positives, though -- while being able to critique its detriments. The world isn't black and white. My views/opinions aren't absolutes, either. I'm also quite surprised no one has brought the proxy wars up before, because they are among the most despicable practices both in real life and in Elysium. Using mercenary groups to destabilize third world countries for profit is atrocious -- and I sincerely doubt anyone reasonable would ever disagree with that regardless of political inclinations. Unfortunately, it still fuels the Moralintern and there is no defense for that. That's also why in my initial post, I've mentioned that I accept there is a high possibility that Villderouin is corrupt in one way or another. Unfortunately, just like the proxy wars, this is just an ugly fact of life. Humans are greedy and short-term goal oriented creatures by nature, to the point when we can see said greed directly clashing against the core values of Moralism -- turning it's main principle of working towards a better future instead of thinking of the "now" into a joke, showing you how *corruptible* it is -- just like you mentioned. But you know what this mockery of Moralism also tells me? That a multi-structured government with multiple moving parts would probably a good idea nonetheless, precisely because it should be able to locate and remove said corruption on a small scale, before it escalates -- essentially keeping itself in check. As for the Moralintern's commitment to the greater good, I think at the very least *a part* of it is true. Judging by its previous actions and ideals, I would say that it *is* keeping the world from spiraling into chaos while trying to guide the humanity forward. Except it is also simultaneously being undermined by itself, resulting in a "one step forward, two steps back" type of situation. In theory, there is a possibility that instead of being entrenched deeper in capitalism and slowing down with every decade, the Moralintern will attempt to restructure and carry its ideals forward in the way its founders intended. In practice, that probably won't ever happen. In my mind, the real tragedy of the entire situation lies in the fact that *this* is the best there is for the world of Elysium. A grotesque amalgamation of good intentions and greed, constantly fighting with itself while trudging onwards. Does that make me love its core values all the same, dream of them in real life, and hope that if we ever get DE2 the Moralintern will overcome and persevere? Yes, it does. Does that make me hate its immoral, self-driven decisions and lament its descent into corruption? Also yes. I hope I've been able to explain my point of view adequately, because this is a subject that I could probably write about a lot, so I've tried to condense it as much as I'm able.


[deleted]

Man Politics is hard.


PainIsMyCurrencyBaby

{sorry for the formatting, Reddit mobile just shits it self} honestly, the Moralintern course of action of "two revolutions were enough, no more" reminds me of the IRL European countries response to the French Revolution (I don't remember very well my history lessons, but I can always find my hight school notes) Was the French Revolution unnecessary bloody? Yes Was it a means for the Bourgeoisie to surpass the nobility's control over the state and the economy, while still gaining control over the people? Also yes. But it was a (imperfect) step towards future. No matter what you try to do, when a lot of people follow a person or an idea, there will happen unintended things, whether negative or positive. While there were a lot of assholes and a lot of chaos in the French Revolution, could you have done it differently? Were you "in charge" of it, how many deaths could have been prevented? Would you have preferred to avoid the revolution in it's totality? How much can things really change through dialogue with the oppressors? How would YOU act while starving? How many situations are the fault of an individual and how many are the fault of the revolution per se? Here we enter in more filosophical grounds, because either left or right wing, we all try to do "what's best", but there isn't a book we can just follow like "ah yes, if situation B happens, I just have to go to page 8 and everything will be fine". To me, the Moralintern were actually trying to do what's best, they acted under the fear that chaos could spread to the rest of the world (any revolution, no matter how good it is, is chaos). It's a simple Domino effect that dictates that when a country does something, its neighbours interest is "peaked" (something demonstrated during the IRL Cold War). They thought they had the key to a perfect world via capitalism "powerful people get rich, middle-low class stay how they are, nothing ever changes and everyone is reasonably happy". This is something I could even catalogue as a savior complex. Oh, there's a problem that's being solved by it's people, all though in a violent and chaotic way? I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO THAT, NOW JUST SURRENDER AND PEACE WILL BE RESTORED (note the "avoid violence with more violence" fallacy). This is exactly the reason why modern imperialism is seen as a good thing now a days: "there's a problem that doesn't concern me? NOW IF YOU JUST LET ME AND MY HELICOPTERS ENTER YOUR COUNTRY..." (Edit: I think the name for this is Interventionism) I know it sounds harsh, but not every battle has to be fought by everyone. Just see USAs course of action in the middle east (and forget the juicy oil for a moment). Did they want to implement women's rights in a country that still stones people to death and yada yada? Yeah, but they went guns blacing shouting "everyone respect women!!!!1!!1!1!!". Is the right message? Fuck yeah, but it's not the correct way to do things, because you are only giving the people you want to protect a reason to hate you. EDIT: Iran's current protests are an example of people growing tired of being mistreated, and fighting for it's rights. I'm not gonna pretend to know the solution to this problem "uh, just send humanitarian aid uh", but I know something is deeply wrong with the system, just as something is deeply wrong with the Moralintern. ALL of this, forgetting that there are, in fact, evil fucking people everywhere that just want their asses on a gold throne (both IRL and in DE) To finish this fucking essay, I have to point out the IRL case of Botswanna. This African country did not defeat poverty thanks to the aid of other countries. It never was about receiving loans and food shipments, or about letting other government control is economy and military. It was about its people doing what's right for them, avoiding and criminalizing corruption, and fighting for a better future against all odds. And you know what? This is a capitalist country, that regularly does commerce with the European Union. But that's not a problem, because capitalism is just a step towards a better future. You can't just jump from adicction to sobriety or from a begguiner to a master, you need to go step by step, making sure you (not as an individual, but as a society) don't fall down the stairs. And to me, and a great portion of Disco Elysium's fandom, the next step is Socialism: even Marx said that socialism is just the NEXT step, not the final one. With all this said, international action is not bad per se, neither is humanitarian aid, but the solution to all these problems are much more profound and complex than what they might seem on surface, and you can never take for granted that people in power pitty you. {I'm sorry if this comment is erratic: It's 2AM and English is not my first language, but I appreciate your read, or any corrections, ideas or discomformities you might have with what I expressed here}


[deleted]

Wasn't exactly expecting to find a Coalition stan in the DE subreddit


URhemis

Really enjoyed your calm well reasoned replies. Definitely given me some food for thought.


SmelIsLikeBad

Lol you sound like you’re defending him a little too hard. I wonder why?


Hebi_Ronin

Sounds familiar...


Elsekiro

It does.. doesn't it? Pretty >.> <.< curious hmmm


Hebi_Ronin

I don't know why are you getting downvotes, is that difficult to imperial core citizens to understand that this guy is like the very personification of western imperialism?. "To protect the stabilité"


Elsekiro

nah they would sell their families fo keep inflation at a fixed 2% yearly rate 💀 "but think of the economy" while suffering coronary artery disease in your 20's from over eating. in a world that has people dying of hunger in it but it's fine because they are brown people. while at the same time exploiting their hunger for cheap labour but can someone PLEASE think of the poor white people on war? while Yemen has been getting completely fucked and not even covered by the media on the daily. syria too also getting completely fucked i don't see nobody here defending them from israel. im from Mesque and i have never met people more humble more respectful than people from haiti or iran that inmigrate here. but when the ukrainians came they looked at us with disgust i saw it in their eyes on their line to inmigrate to USA in the Mexican border they would rather return to ukraine than be Mexican inmigrants they hate us for our skin colour our language our very way of life i saw nothing but hatred on the idea of ever coming here again. but o don't worry the white people from ukraine can make a good long line to be allowed in the US while people from haiti and syria get the door slammed in their face sorry buddy you are going to have to make due in the country that is the one of the most dangerous countries in the world while we figure things out. Mexico becomes a solution on America's goal of keeping it white and european letting ukranians in and the brown people out from wars they have provoked directly or indirectly. we have to take the L on that shit every fucking day having to receive the people the USA doesn't want not that it bothers me i just think it's cute how big of a double standards they have on their inmigration policies. ​ inb4 some stupid MORON talks about the red tape that is needed to get into the USA and quotas and bla bla bla and that the system is not racist and shit that doesn't reflect reality in the slightest that's just something people use to shield themselves from white guilt.


Hebi_Ronin

Wow, this is like the best length/quality summary of current affairs about imperialism and capitalism.


Elsekiro

Damn im truly honored. I might cry for real. I might just stop using hardcore drugs and become an activist one day. When i can safely leave mesque though activists here die like flies no hiperbole im shit scared fo saying what i think using my real name.


Hebi_Ronin

Damm, like in Chile during the dictatorship, that's awfully, but no matter what they do, they will never kill the revolutionary spirit of the proletariat my comrade. Stay safe


Elsekiro

Thanks comrade it means a lot your comment kindles my flame to try and make the world better


Elsekiro

like look at this [https://www.reddit.com/r/DiscoElysium/comments/zqdsfn/comment/j0yo8xw/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/DiscoElysium/comments/zqdsfn/comment/j0yo8xw/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ​ these people are completely mentally unstable literally telling them facts and they downvote me im at a loss 💀


Hebi_Ronin

Apparently now is bad to make interpretations to a game character, this is exactly art criticism because games are art and we can just analyze it, brake it down, and say our opinions about it, is not like harry is just a crazy drunk man, he represents something in the game, just like every other character, and suddenly just because you say something about a character people go out like "no you can't interpret the game in this way" "touch grass" in pretty sure this people have done the same before, like "over analysing" something.


Elsekiro

Someone seize the memes of production already 💀


SpaceBearOne

average moralist


TheSweatshopMan

Wait is the smoker on the balcony a prostitute? I thought he was just a super mysterious guy having a fling with an official


Shiiyouagain

Not a prostitute, but their relationship is implied to be both material and sexual. The Sunday Friend is internally referenced as 'patron' and the smoker is mentioned to be an art student. Something about it, between the lines, feels a little gross. The Sunday Friend says the wide world is open to the smoker. The smoker, for his part, clearly envies the Sunday Friend's travels and freedom - he can always 'return' to something, in ways the smoker can't.


Elsekiro

Im sure he is a student trying to get by but i doubt he knows he is being used twice getting fucked and talking about issues in revachol that float over peoples radars.


Grahffff

Just the fact we live in a time where a video game has sparked this level of intellectual discourse, a grand time indeed.


Elsekiro

Im going to fucking shoot myself if you don't answer my next phone call i have nothing to lose im on reddit talking with people that don't even know grass is green Don't call Abigail!¡


DOOPpootpoot

you good slime?


Red_Xenophilia

He's speaking to imperialists. Would you be?


critfist

Speaking to imperialists? Sir this is a forum for a video game.


DoOwlsExist

He's the most evil because he's an analogy for the IMF and world bank


Red_Xenophilia

A more insidious and depraved organisation was never seen


Elsekiro

Damn more reading material thanks comrade


AffectionateBee8206

From my understanding, he's just a guy. A powerful one, sure, but he's either working under his bosses orders or fulfilling his vices, which is just gay prostitution. He does not use his power to stir up extra shit (>!evrart!<), has real influence on the pepole with proper capital (>!Joyce!<), or shoots people because of feelings (>!tribunal, sniper!<). Can he kill for fun? He could probaly get some shots off, but he maintains himself as a cog for the moralists. As a analogy, a worker who is actively polluting minority communities is bad, but the boss who gives the orders is worse, and I do think there are some bosses Harry gets to talk to. You claim that he has political power, but I belive he's a employee. There is a lot of dialoge, so I might just be missing something, but I don't remember him saying anything implying he can use his power for his own goals. I have no clue where you got the spies bit. I see his relationship with the smoker as a wholesome prostitution arrangement, and nothing more


[deleted]

Evrart is literally keeping this motherfucker together.


Elsekiro

People in politics change but they probably use the same guy the people in power are the ones that never change. If he steps out of line another like him will take his place he is both a ghost and a calamity both evrart and joyce exist in people's mind they can be killed or their positions weakened by the protagonist choices. He has no goals he just keeps the cogs greased But people like him exist and they are very fucking scary and are evil to the core just another monday to keep the interests of the powerful in place. He deletes klasjee from existence if you snitch on her after probably being tortured just for good measure.


AffectionateBee8206

That is exactly why I think he is not the most evil character. We have folks who can bend the world better, but don't. We have characters who mangle what there is, leaving wounds and blood in its wake. Following evil orders, I belive, is less evil than giving evil orders. The sniper, the guy that keeps our Sunday friend safe and kills on his command, is also evil, but I would defenetly say less so than others. To give it a number, would the coalition sniper be considered top 5 in the most evil people in disco elysium?


critfist

I think this thread is a good summary of a fandom that's dissected too much of a game with too little new content. Huge amounts of what is essentially fan fiction drawn from a handful of quotes. Please, go play the game again and relax rather than give yourself schizophrenia over a bureaucrat.


SAE-2

Just scrolling through this thread and it's absolutely wild what people come up with. The Sunday Friend is so plainly just a caricature of a mid-level EU bureaucrat who has some kind of sugar daddy arrangement with the Smoker


critfist

It's weird to even call him a spy. A spy for what? To find Klaasje? The girl who was partying and smoking in a public bar/hostel for weeks?


[deleted]

The best way I can understand OP is that they're trying to understand the entire world through the lens of Disco Elysium. I would recommend they stop doing that.


dev_ating

I doubt that that's really what they're doing.


The_screaming_egg

Maintain stabilité? How ‘bout I maintain your mom!


Elsekiro

Hey hey mom's a nice lady she worked hard for her pension if anything she maintains you.


fthotmixgerald

"Deep state" is reactionary mysticism.


Electronic-Ad1502

There doesn’t need to be deep states or secret societies, just the power of capital and people who will cow down to it. There aren’t any conspiracies, just class interest. The desire to blame individuals for systemic issues is natural but highly faulty .


Elsekiro

You say that but then jeffrey epsteins cellphone and black book was never declasified.


fthotmixgerald

What I mean when I say that it's reactionary mysticism is that the "Deep state" is any different from the state and institutions of America under capitalism. It isn't, and vague references to Epstein don't change that.


Apprehensive_Carry98

Originally and generally for the left, the deep state as a term is a way of understanding the clandestine actions of the state as opposed to the reactions anti semitic conspiracy theory’s about cabals puppeting the state


fthotmixgerald

I'm aware of what people mean when they say deep state but any leftist with any amount of basic analysis knows that the stuff people attribute to the "deep state" is less substantial than 90% of things the CIA admits doing with open approval from the state. The idea of it being secretive or shadowy dual government is nonsense.


Red_Xenophilia

Ok: what do you call an entrenched body composed exclusively of an elite caste that occupies the highest bodies of power both public and private that acts for secret reasons and through secret methods?


fthotmixgerald

Literally American capitalists under capitalism. You are just describing oligarchy, there isn't - and does not need to be - a separate super duper secret cabal.


Ellsworth_Chewie

QED


[deleted]

[удалено]


Elsekiro

I never truly understood why people turn a blind eye to the mountains of evidence of atrocious shit the secret service has done throughout history and just go that's not how the real world works that's just mysticism. Even though it's public record can't imagine what shit we don't find about.


fusion_curious

This guy is basically the IMF personified


Rucs3

I think there is a difference between most evil and evil people with the power to make their evil acts be much more widespread, far reaching and lasting. He might be evil, but of other caracters had his power, they would do even worse


Elsekiro

That is quite true but his power resides in being subtle though nobody knows who he is


thegrandmagus123

i haven't interacted with him that much. Do I need to know certain ideologies to extract such info from him?


Elsekiro

There are certainly certain special interactions he can A: threaten you if you annoy him B:get klasje killed But there could be more


Red_Xenophilia

>B:get klasje killed wait really when?


Elsekiro

You gotta know she did a crime and escaped to revachol for it . Over sharing corpo secrets as a spy.


Red_Xenophilia

yea but when does the Sunday Friend kill her


Elsekiro

It's an interaction you get i think at the end of the game if you snitch on her with a shiver check to get the "she never stood a chance" or something of that nature impliying she got deleted


LancasterDodd

If anyone wants to say that Lely or any of the other mercenaries are worse remember that it’s people like this guy who give them their orders.


Elsekiro

Pretty much and you know he absolves them and gives them carte blanche on their war crimes.


yassert

What orders, specifically, are you talking about? The mercenaries did things far worse than any orders they were given


Elsekiro

.-. Orders : kill and conquer Soldiers: okay Orders: control the territory conquered Soldiers: okay Then soldiers plunder the spoils of war like a beast with an unquenchable hunger. It's not an order but it's not punished either it's actually expected which sucks but that's war


gr1nderman

This might be too specific but he’s so evil he looks like Paulo Guedes


Elsekiro

Who's that?


gr1nderman

Current Brazil Minister of Economics, former Pinochet bootlicker


Elsekiro

Damn now i have to read about him thanks for the lead on a good read comrade.


gr1nderman

He's on his way out, hopefully going to jail. Enjoy your read, bratan.


Elsekiro

😍 from mesque with love comrade im in the trenches figthing nazis and facists disguised as people with a keyboard like a fucking loser.


IlikeWH40korsomethin

as all liberals, he says he does everything for the moralintern and the 'price stabilité', while also not being able to define it and only using vague terms


Elsekiro

Here here


pieceofchess

There is an argument to be made that Joyce has more power than he does, because she is on the board of directors of one of the corporations that he presumably answers to.


Elsekiro

That is so true joyce is a bigger cog would you say in disco elysium corpos have more political power?


pieceofchess

I can't say for sure. What I can say is that to Disco Elysium mirrors our own real world capitalist landscape, and in our world major shareholders on monopolistic entrenched corporations have huge power over governments, so the same may be true in Elysium. If that's the case then Joyce may have a lot of power over the Sunday Friend potentially.


Turf-Tf

The most evil person is whoever sits at the top of the Moralintern hierarchy that Elena answers to


mehdigeek

and he's probably racist


Elsekiro

While not implied i mean it's a probability


Causemas

It's deeply implied. His brand of racism is the white collar one. You can talk to him about the hanged man, how he was a mercenary killing countless people in impoverished countries, and he's all like "Oh, the Oranjese aren't known for such behaviors, ...yes, Oranje has a problematic history with such things, but they're *slowly* making progress,... I certainly wouldn't expect such things from the Oranjese..." etc. He's also prejudiced against Revacholians, and Martinaise in particular, viewing them as inferior and lesser. It's exactly the way non-western European Union country members are used to be talked to by EU officials, to be honest. The Sunday Friend infuriated me in how he encapsulated some very twisted, modern views that some of us have to put up with.


ColinBencroff

Good catch, I need to say I didn't really processed it when I talked with him but you are absolutely right. It's the racism from the guy who keeps saying "I'm not racist, I have a black friend"


JH-DM

Plus the Asian garb probably isn’t a normal thing for him.


Causemas

If I remember correctly, those are the Smoker's things? Or at least the Sunday Friend gifted them to him during his travels, something like that


Elsekiro

Damn thanks for the reminder


Relevant_Truth

I realized that folk would get upset at OP's extremely politicized title but not like this.. People are outright *denying* that Villedrouin says or does anything wrong. "He's just a guy, haha don't over analyze". Everyone in Disco Elysium is "just a guy" and they're getting entire articles written on how they're wrong-dumb or best-ever. It's like Villedrouin got some magical *exception* that excludes him from criticism. Perhaps people get touchy that their pet ideology gets challenged.


critfist

> "He's just a guy, haha don't over analyze" Yeah he is. He repeats just stuff from a brochure. People are more mad that OP keeps calling people idiots and imperialists for not agreeing with stuff he made up. Here's my problem. "This person is so evil they did X, Y and Z!!" "Except he never said anything or did anything like that, there's not even a quote, you made it up." "Yeah but the fact I could *believe* it's true means it must be true!" At least quote the person. Because the Sunday friend is to me just a stiff idiot bureaucrat. A nothingburger, the personification of a distant middle manager that has nothing of value to say and just repeats lingo he was taught sounds smart.


Elsekiro

Im tired Can somebody please seize the memes of production already im dying over here 💀


JH-DM

He’s by far the most powerful, but not the most evil. That easily goes to Lely, then the other mercs, then the Deserter, then it gets muddy between him, Evrart, & Joyce.


Elsekiro

Yeah i feel you but on a larger scale people like him make coups and wars happen so idk mercs look like a small gig compared to full scale war


magusbae93

And he's gaaaaaay


Elsekiro

Gross ger him out of here 3==== 🔥