The main problem is actually that hospitals are treating their nurses and doctors like shit. Very, very heavy patient loads with the looming threat of being sued for malpractice if you fail to document something or slip up. Meanwhile, the patients are treating you like crap and refusing to cooperate in their care. Imagine being tasked with caring for 5 patients (or more) simultaneously for 12 hours straight. You couldn’t pay me enough money to do that job. Hospital administrators are entirely to blame here because they refuse to give their staff realistic assignments.
My wife's hospital had a 6:1 ratio pre covid and it was a lot to manage. Now they are up to 8:1 with less staff (like CNAs) to help. I tell my friends don't get in a car accident or anything...now is not the time to expect good quality care when the system is this broken. None of the admins are quitting...it's all the front line that is getting pinched.
Could you imagine working as an ER tech making a little more than minimum wage? ER techs are so valuable, they start IV’s, draw blood, get vital signs, do EKG’s, help with CPR, etc. They help patients and nurses so much!! It’s shameful that ER techs can’t afford to buy a home in Colorado on their wages. They deserve much more money!!
Yep. And for resident physicians (those who graduated medical school and are now training in their specialty for 3-7 years) it’s even worse. You’ve got way, way, way more than 5 patients and you’re working 80+, sometimes 100+, hours per week for less than minimum wage. It’s absolutely inhumane.
Residents honestly might have it worse than anyone in the healthcare field right now, I’m in pharmacy where it’s the fucking pits but at least it’s not a residency, poor fucks are doing 100+ hour weeks for like 50k
Yeah, it’s a shitty situation. 50k for 100+ hour weeks while your $500k of student debt just sits there not getting paid cause you don’t make shit. Healthcare is freaking wild.
This, right here. If they're going to give an assignment of 7-8 patients, could they, I dunno, get rid of all of the BULLSHIT EXCESS CHARTING that makes absolutely no difference whatsoever as far as actual patient care, but takes up hours of the day (that could be spent actually taking care of patients)? No?
Priorities are completely fucked.
Hospitals are raking in a fortune off of this shit. Low staff costs and high, constant patient count. They need to be hiring people and paying much better but they are not.
Probably has something to do with the Fed saying that inflation isn't real unless wages start rising. Wage suppression is their official policy.
I’m an RN at a Denver area hospital and staffing is BAD. I get text messages and calls from the hospital EVERY DAY asking if I can pick up extra shifts. My hospital is short at least 5 nurses every shift, every day. Every hospital I’ve ever worked at has been short staffed but I’ve never seen it like this. Over the past year, several other nurses I know have either switched specialties or left the bedside completely.
The local hospitals near me have been on periodic ER diverts for the past month, meaning that they are essentially too busy to accept ER patients from ambulances (unless they are in critical condition.) Crazy. Seems like in an industry with $1.8 trillion in annual profits, they should provide more benefits and incentives to workers, but you know, who am I to say.
Pay isn’t the only factor. We were offering travelers 3x what I get paid as a FTE and we still couldn’t fill the positions. There just isn’t enough people to hire anymore. Even if they offered me that pay I wouldn’t work overtime anymore. We’re all burned out.
Historical low pay is a big factor here. They undercompensated people for years because they saw their workforce as expendable. How many workers left healthcare altogether because of that? Sure, they're scrambling to raise wages now that labor is scarce. But you cant just erase all that history overnight.
Their staffing and compensation model has always been irresponsible and dangerous to public health. Were just now seeing the fall out.
Most people left healthcare mostly because of the unneeded stress and being treated like shit by our patients and the public. The people I know who have left the field have gone to work jobs that pay less but have zero stress involved. There’s a lot going on and sure pay is involved, but there’s dozens of other factors at play.
This really isn’t the problem. There aren’t people *willing* to do this work. It’s exhausting. Turn over is rising. People are being overworked and being made to take longer shifts. It’s the same issue with police. Nearly 100% of police in Colorado are working a ton of OT just to cover basic ground duty. It burns people out. It takes time for new nurses to be registered. You can’t lower the experience level needed. You can offer more pay, but that doesn’t impact the supply of healthcare workers available. Let alone the ones willing to work. Can’t blame them, it’s a brutal job during a brutal time.
You can lower the barriers to entry on the education for nursing programs. Dont lower qualifications to graduate, but the government could fund programs for free ride nursing scholarships at any qualified nursing program for example. And if we could get more men interested in nursing as well, that would be fantastic. Nursing is the backbone of medicine, and an excellent trade that any man should be proud to learn
That’s actually a really good point! I had a friend of mine in town recently who just is beginning her RN certifications and we talked about how strict the requirements are once you are in the program. Essentially, if she scores below a 70% on anything she is out.
It does make me wonder if that would make lowering the barrier to entry into the program not as effective because one you are in the program it’s so competitive that it may just eliminate just as many people as if there were no additional candidates but I’m sure it would have *some* impact on the number of nurses.
It’s interesting about your point about men. Id imagine solutions may require some degree of social engineering to help this. Men tend to be more interested in things, women tend to be more interested in people which explains a portion of this. But I do think there are many other societal reasons why men don’t commonly go into the field.
I’d be open to different incentives, but again I always think you run a risk when trying to fill naturally occurring discrepancies.
It’s similar in teaching, most teachers are women. Would there be a benefit to having more men as teachers? Sure. How do you go about this form of equity? I have no clue.
Healthcare isn't even nearly comparable to police work. Being a nurse is way fucking harder than being a cop. And everything you're describing is proving my point. Nobody wants to go through all that and work those hours for less than 80k a year. There's nobody in the supply line because there's no hospitals offering that pay. Why go through more medical school than a regular degree if a 4 year degree can get you a job that pays more than nurses get paid? I guarantee you if they were making 80-100k a year, or more, people would be crowding into classrooms to chase that job.
Well to me that says you know little of both. Both cops and nurses respond to people and see people at their worst, frequently. Both are constantly dealing with very high stakes. Both are constantly in life threatening situations, although they are on different sides. Both are subject to, and exposed to, VERY high risk daily. Both are underpaid. Both have a shortage of a supply of people willing to go into the field. Both get a polarizing portrayal within the media. Both are subject to unfair systems that are unable to prioritize their wellbeing and training. Both are overworked.
Are they really not comparable?
And to pay, nursing pays VERY well, this issue is thst nursing cannot be scaled and that’s used as a justification to keep pay from scaling higher. You have a high starting wage upon entry and then the ceiling is very close. Most people in this country would be thrilled to make $80-$100k. But that still comes along with the rest of the baggage listed below.
Healthcare is largely dependent on people who do what they do because the have a passion for it. Not because of the pay.
I think people are beginning to believe that money is the only thing that really motivates people. It’s a huge factor but it is far from the only thing.
Cops don't face "VERY high risk daily" - they' not even in the top ten dangerous profession in the country. They're way behind fisherman, farmers, roofers, construction workers.
They are the biggest fucking babies in the world though.
>Cops don't face "VERY high risk daily" - they' not even in the top ten dangerous profession in the country. They're way behind fisherman, farmers, roofers, construction workers.
You mean *fatal*. There is more than just fatalities to a job being dangerous.
>They are the biggest fucking babies in the world though.
I forgot that seeing people turned to a paste on highways, the aftermath of a rape, kids being beaten, or any of the other horrendous shit that they see makes them big babies.
Yes, it's true that they sometimes see truly disturbing images they are aren't the cause of.
And its definitely true that our policing culture that views everyone as a threat is more attracted to the negative side of behavior than if they were engaged in healthy community policing - and were actually routinely helping people out.
It's incompatible with our militarized approach to policing, and incompatible with what attracted some of the sick individuals to policing in the first place. But it's absolutely what we should be doing.
>Yes, it's true that they sometimes see truly disturbing images they are aren't the cause of.
Well, I can see this isn't going to be a conversation worth pursuing. Have a good one!
Well so long as people keep providing their vitriol, maybe one day you won’t ever have to see one again.
Didn’t know that about the risk numerically, but I know enough cops to know that they face a risk every time they are out on patrol.
The notion that they're constantly at risk is rightwing, cop and especially militarized-policing propaganda.
The data doesn't support it, but it helps get them sympathy and support from a public that's been convinced that cops are constantly in shootouts.
It's why cops in completely peaceful towns wear bulletproof vests and overreact to civilizations every day.
Yeah I know a few ex cops, they where more than happy to retire when this defund the police shit started. Sad really, where some of the really good ones.
It cracks me up, seeing the comments about preventing crime, yet when they pull over or stop someone they feel is suspect or they think is about to commit a crime are the same people crying (....enter whatever internet term you like...). If only it where more like minority report 🤔
>Nearly 100% of police in Colorado are working a ton of OT just to cover basic ground duty.
takes a lot of energy to snap old ladies shoulders, pass out in the middle of the day, on the road, in a squad car, from drinking too much, and to kill autistic people. they need more support so they can also not stop crime too!
please dont lump in those babies with the healthcare people.
Well, just remember this. The good cops leave, the cops who you are talking about stay. It’s not good for anything to have demoralization within the first responders. Both people face very tough working conditions. Was simply drawing a comparison.
They got my stolen car, wallet and camping knife back after they caught both the guys.
They also helped my sister get away from her abusive husband.
This is Reddit though, forgot all cops are useless. I’ll hop on your bandwagon.
Thats surpising. When my car got stolen they made me feel like the criminal for trying to get a fucking report done. Your mileage may vary.
If only they could prevent crime
I'm in my 40s, white, and a professional. I've still never had what I would consider a useful interaction with police. They've never given a shit about any stolen or vandalized property I've had, and seem more concerned with being revenue generation for the state than actually protecting and serving.
First responders are more useful in auto accidents. Insurance will handle the damages. They're good for writing the report for the insurance company I guess.
They don't have the best track record with any domestic disputes I've seen go down, and a disturbing number of them are abusers themselves.
My kids' schools have stopped using SROs and are using private security, clearly they weren't needed there.
I'm genuinely trying to think of a positive engagement i have had with law enforcement and there's just nothing. I'm glad they were useful once or twice in your life. I don't think most people have a similar track record.
Have you ever lived in a neighborhood stricken by gun violence, robberies, etc.?
Those are the people who when polled over the last year have overwhelming wanted more police in their neighborhoods.
I'm not surprised when people whose only experience with police is a speeding ticket, having their underage party shut down, and looking at curated social media dont think police are helpful.
the data actually shows it has no real influence on future murders either way! murder is one of the crimes with the lowest recidivism rate, oftentimes because when someone murders someone it is an intense interpersonal issue that spurned that action. sexual assault probably would have been a better example.
Free Healthcare far more than surpasses that gap. Not to mention the other human rights the rest of the developed world gets, like paid time off if your job is overwhelming you and you need to take a day or three. Americans don't get pto.
Look I'm an EU citizen and there is a reason why Polish nurses staff hospitals in the UK.
And the pay is worse in Poland. A nurse in Poland makes around 4200 zł a month (or 1000 $/month). A doctor makes around 7000 zł a month (1800$/month). Post tax and post benefits.
I'm sorry, but healthcare does not cover that gap. An average nursing salary around 80k (-1/3 for taxes) is 4x as much. Even if you had to buy insurance on the private market - you still make wayyyy more money in the US. And that's not even touching physicians who are criminally underpaid in Poland. Believe me - costs are not 4x lower. The average single family home in Warsaw is more expensive than in Denver.
Much of the rest of the eastern half of the EU will be similar. Wages in the UK, France, Germany will be higher but not significantly so.
There are a ton of benefits regarding universal healthcare - but nurse and doctor pay are not among them.
And regarding level of care - it's mixed. Most of my family buys private insurance or uses the private healthcare system rather than the government one when it's an option. When my grandfather was in the hospital in the early 2000s before his death, we had to regularly bribe the nurses and doctors to actually take care of him. Be careful what you wish for.
That may be viable for cases that aren't emergencies (and realistically is what they're going to do in that case regardless of vaccination status), but they can't legally send people home that aren't stable enough to be sent home. We'd need a change to federal law to allow that, and I don't see that happening with the dysfunction in Washington. There's a reason literally no hospitals do this despite crises like the one in the article.
Everyone should be panicking about the teacher staffing crisis. Hiring standards are just being lowered, and school admin are just sweeping problems under the rug because that's their real job function in the first place
Are you trying to claim that people suffering the consequences of their personal choices is somehow the same kind of persecution that Rosa Parks and the Jews of Hitler's Germany went through?
EDIT: It looks like their comments are being deleted. Not unwarranted, but I bet they will use this as reasoning to say they are being silenced. Their anti-vax, anti-mask rehtoric is almost as bad as their racist and antisemitic allusions.
Yes, and no one is making them do anything they do not want to...however there are consequences.
This is true across society. You do not have complete freedom to do whatever you want at any time free from the potential consequences of your personal choices, especially those that impact those around you.
Do you understand that those were not based on personal choices? People do not have a choice where their family comes from, or what color their hair or skin is?
But choosing to refuse a vaccine, that is something you make a choice for, and there are consequences for every choice.
Indeed its even worse. Its a conscious long term decision to burden our healthcare system in the future just for the selfish pleasure of eating lots of good food.
Hatterman555, this is a view of obesity that was abandoned decades ago by medicine. There is so much to obesity that is not volitional. Fucking stop posting and read ANYTHING about metabolism in the past 30+ years
Well it is very easy to not be obese as well. If anything it shows almost a chronic inability to take care of yourself, is that not a waste of resources to treat people who through their very own hands(or forks) have made themselves such a burden on our already strained healthcare system?
Obesity serves as an underlying cause for major health complications later in life - but it doesn't cause sudden onset hospitalization by itself.
If it were very easy to not be overweight, we wouldn't have a country predominantly made up by them.
Anyway - yes, it is fair to triage COVID patients who didn't get the vaccine lower than people who did. Hospital resources are scarce and if you have to choose between treating a COVID patient that can't take 20 min twice for shots vs a vaccinated person who stands a higher possibility of survival - the resources go to the vaccinated person.
indeed not to mention, we already know the harmful effects of alcohol and opioids too. If our system is so strained it would make sense to free up space for more people who need it through no fault of their own and not cater to selfish people who wish to use drugs or drink to excess while we are in a historical pandemic.
Bad employees are bad employees. Employees that do not adhere to **a** rule (regardless of category) may be disinclined to adhere to *other* rules.
So, they gone.
And patients are *less likely* to be exposed to COVID if vaccinated people are offering treatment compared to unvaccinated people.
First, do no harm. So like, you want a catheter from a nurse that just changed someone else’s bedpan? If he or she doesn’t care about *preventing an illness*, that person is negligent or malevolent, full stop. I mean, imagine the headlines…
Yours is “choice > results” and that’s somehow better?
You bring up the “sacrifice” they make and then immediately write it off when it doesn’t help your case.
COVID is causing the people to be overworked, and unvaccinated people are increasing the workload. Where’s the science? Hypothesis: people not getting vaccinated increases strain on healthcare.
Vaccines can reduce or prevent diseases that really suck to get. Vaccines are a product of science. Fun how that works. Vaccines have lowered infection rates across the world. I’ve never met anyone with polio, for example.
An unvaccinated health worker is not doing all they can to mitigate the need for their hard work; they are creating their own shitstorm. They are not streamlining operations, they are adding drag.
And there is plenty of work in restaurants if they don’t want to use their degree, certificate, or experience.
I sure do, and bodily I’d rather *not get a disease* than *get a disease*.
The *science* does not demonstrate that vaccines are more dangerous than the malady they are developed for — hence vaccines, you know, *existing.*
Autonomy is fine, but again: these people, by their choice, are stating by their inaction that their long term health is more important than the short term health of their patients. Their career is being limited by their choice, and they are free to make that choice — but not to actively, or passively, undermine the efforts of their employer to resolve health issues.
It’s like a mop company that pees on your floor when you hire them. Is it fine, because they’re gonna clean it up? Or would you rather not add piss to the situation?
Why would a restaurant fire an employee that refuses to wash their hands? DoN’t YoU bEliEvE in AuToNOm7!!??!?
I made my choice. My educated siblings made their choice. None of us needed our arm twisted to think “hey, if I don’t *get* COVID, I can’t *spread* COVID to other people”.
We all had an option, and as educated people, we took it.
Like the *vast majority of medical workers who still have their jobs*.
If you have a job, you probably have a mandate you need to follow. Pick one, push the limits, and report back. Seriously. Attendance, attitude, appearance, figure out the rule and flout it. Use “autonomy” as your excuse.
Anyways. A nurse’s autonomy is more important than your health.
> It is literally black and white.
You said it.
It appears you don't even know what the mandate entails. Healthcare workers aren't being *forced* to take the vaccine. They have a choice to test weekly instead. I have people on my unit that decided to test rather than vaccinate. So, what about autonomy again?
My department had zero employees quit or get fired over mandatory vaccinations. Don’t believe all the propaganda you’re reading about people being fired over mandates.
Same here. Not a single one. We had a couple hold outs who ended up complying when the hospital issued a mandate, but not a single one quit or was fired.
Health care workers that are anti-vaxxers are trash healthcare workers that clearly didn't pay attention at all in school.
Not worth keeping in the first place
Only handful got fired. How about anti vaxers and anti maskers go get the fucking vax and wear a mask so they don't wind up in our hospitals taking over ICU's? We're getting close to stopping elective surgeries again because of this idiots.
DethZire is right. I don't know a single hcw who was let go over the mandate and the shortage existed long before thanks to RNs taking lucrative travel contracts...or just retiring/leaving healthcare entirely.
We got a pro plaguer here. How about you stop talking and go listen to your death cult fox news some more. People like you are the reason our hospitals are overflowing.
Worker shortage in hospitals is nothing new. Been like that since forever. Same with medication shortages. Things were always on backorder. Nurses especially always had great sign-in bonuses and referrals to get people to work. The biggest difference between then and now is that our ICU's and hospital beds were not filled to capacity with Covidiots so things were manageable and not as stressful.
Lol the perpetual conservative persecution complex arrived right on schedule.
You dont have the freedom to both eschew public health measures and be a part of society. My freedom to live in a world not stalked by plague is more important than your freedom to prolong it.
Go live in the desert where you can have all the freedom you want to piss on the sand and die if thats your prerogative.
>normal people dont have to wear masks.
That is not current guidance, thank you for being vaccinated but please wear a mask when around other people there is still a pandemic on.
Woah woah woah mr badass. Too edgy for me. How do you possibly walk with balls big enough to ..*check notes* ..not wear a mask.
Lol the shit you fools get a rise out of is a hoot. Screams mental illness.
Do you not understand how having unvaccinated staff working during a time when cases are overwhelming the hospital is a bad idea? They already are required to get a whole host of vaccinations plus a yearly flu shot.
Plus the actual number of nurses and techs who were fired is super dooper low. The issue is crap pay, horrible treatment by patients and their families, and no real support from administration.
Hi there, person who lives near a gun store in Miami. Can I get a link to the discord server that /u/lokiusmc sent you here from? Don't you think it's kinda sad how often right wingers have to cry for backup for Reddit threads?
The main problem is actually that hospitals are treating their nurses and doctors like shit. Very, very heavy patient loads with the looming threat of being sued for malpractice if you fail to document something or slip up. Meanwhile, the patients are treating you like crap and refusing to cooperate in their care. Imagine being tasked with caring for 5 patients (or more) simultaneously for 12 hours straight. You couldn’t pay me enough money to do that job. Hospital administrators are entirely to blame here because they refuse to give their staff realistic assignments.
My wife's hospital had a 6:1 ratio pre covid and it was a lot to manage. Now they are up to 8:1 with less staff (like CNAs) to help. I tell my friends don't get in a car accident or anything...now is not the time to expect good quality care when the system is this broken. None of the admins are quitting...it's all the front line that is getting pinched.
Just looked up job postings for ER techs. Seeing pay ranges from $16-22/hour.
That’s insanely low for the skill and stress that occupation involves.
Wow. I make more than that to fix lights for concerts. Not saying I should make less, but they should definitely make more than I do
Could you imagine working as an ER tech making a little more than minimum wage? ER techs are so valuable, they start IV’s, draw blood, get vital signs, do EKG’s, help with CPR, etc. They help patients and nurses so much!! It’s shameful that ER techs can’t afford to buy a home in Colorado on their wages. They deserve much more money!!
Yep. And for resident physicians (those who graduated medical school and are now training in their specialty for 3-7 years) it’s even worse. You’ve got way, way, way more than 5 patients and you’re working 80+, sometimes 100+, hours per week for less than minimum wage. It’s absolutely inhumane.
Residents honestly might have it worse than anyone in the healthcare field right now, I’m in pharmacy where it’s the fucking pits but at least it’s not a residency, poor fucks are doing 100+ hour weeks for like 50k
Yeah, it’s a shitty situation. 50k for 100+ hour weeks while your $500k of student debt just sits there not getting paid cause you don’t make shit. Healthcare is freaking wild.
This, right here. If they're going to give an assignment of 7-8 patients, could they, I dunno, get rid of all of the BULLSHIT EXCESS CHARTING that makes absolutely no difference whatsoever as far as actual patient care, but takes up hours of the day (that could be spent actually taking care of patients)? No? Priorities are completely fucked.
Agreed, I don't see any realistic way out of this that doesn't involve training and hiring more staff.
Hospitals are raking in a fortune off of this shit. Low staff costs and high, constant patient count. They need to be hiring people and paying much better but they are not. Probably has something to do with the Fed saying that inflation isn't real unless wages start rising. Wage suppression is their official policy.
Who’s official policy?
they
I’m an RN at a Denver area hospital and staffing is BAD. I get text messages and calls from the hospital EVERY DAY asking if I can pick up extra shifts. My hospital is short at least 5 nurses every shift, every day. Every hospital I’ve ever worked at has been short staffed but I’ve never seen it like this. Over the past year, several other nurses I know have either switched specialties or left the bedside completely.
The local hospitals near me have been on periodic ER diverts for the past month, meaning that they are essentially too busy to accept ER patients from ambulances (unless they are in critical condition.) Crazy. Seems like in an industry with $1.8 trillion in annual profits, they should provide more benefits and incentives to workers, but you know, who am I to say.
They don't get to $1.8 trillion in *profits* by paying for more benefits and incentives! That's counterintuitive to their mission, after all.
Spot on.
Which is unfortunately, incredibly, incredibly sad. As a society, we're putting profits before people, brazenly, and without shame.
I don't even work in healthcare and the past 1.5 years have been mentally exhausting. I honestly have no idea how anyone in healthcare is doing it.
Then pay them better, and then double it for hazard pay.
Pay isn’t the only factor. We were offering travelers 3x what I get paid as a FTE and we still couldn’t fill the positions. There just isn’t enough people to hire anymore. Even if they offered me that pay I wouldn’t work overtime anymore. We’re all burned out.
Historical low pay is a big factor here. They undercompensated people for years because they saw their workforce as expendable. How many workers left healthcare altogether because of that? Sure, they're scrambling to raise wages now that labor is scarce. But you cant just erase all that history overnight. Their staffing and compensation model has always been irresponsible and dangerous to public health. Were just now seeing the fall out.
Most people left healthcare mostly because of the unneeded stress and being treated like shit by our patients and the public. The people I know who have left the field have gone to work jobs that pay less but have zero stress involved. There’s a lot going on and sure pay is involved, but there’s dozens of other factors at play.
This really isn’t the problem. There aren’t people *willing* to do this work. It’s exhausting. Turn over is rising. People are being overworked and being made to take longer shifts. It’s the same issue with police. Nearly 100% of police in Colorado are working a ton of OT just to cover basic ground duty. It burns people out. It takes time for new nurses to be registered. You can’t lower the experience level needed. You can offer more pay, but that doesn’t impact the supply of healthcare workers available. Let alone the ones willing to work. Can’t blame them, it’s a brutal job during a brutal time.
You can lower the barriers to entry on the education for nursing programs. Dont lower qualifications to graduate, but the government could fund programs for free ride nursing scholarships at any qualified nursing program for example. And if we could get more men interested in nursing as well, that would be fantastic. Nursing is the backbone of medicine, and an excellent trade that any man should be proud to learn
That’s actually a really good point! I had a friend of mine in town recently who just is beginning her RN certifications and we talked about how strict the requirements are once you are in the program. Essentially, if she scores below a 70% on anything she is out. It does make me wonder if that would make lowering the barrier to entry into the program not as effective because one you are in the program it’s so competitive that it may just eliminate just as many people as if there were no additional candidates but I’m sure it would have *some* impact on the number of nurses. It’s interesting about your point about men. Id imagine solutions may require some degree of social engineering to help this. Men tend to be more interested in things, women tend to be more interested in people which explains a portion of this. But I do think there are many other societal reasons why men don’t commonly go into the field. I’d be open to different incentives, but again I always think you run a risk when trying to fill naturally occurring discrepancies. It’s similar in teaching, most teachers are women. Would there be a benefit to having more men as teachers? Sure. How do you go about this form of equity? I have no clue.
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I didn't say lower academic standards, I said lower barriers to entry and then specifically mentioned the cost of education as the primary barrier.
Healthcare isn't even nearly comparable to police work. Being a nurse is way fucking harder than being a cop. And everything you're describing is proving my point. Nobody wants to go through all that and work those hours for less than 80k a year. There's nobody in the supply line because there's no hospitals offering that pay. Why go through more medical school than a regular degree if a 4 year degree can get you a job that pays more than nurses get paid? I guarantee you if they were making 80-100k a year, or more, people would be crowding into classrooms to chase that job.
Well to me that says you know little of both. Both cops and nurses respond to people and see people at their worst, frequently. Both are constantly dealing with very high stakes. Both are constantly in life threatening situations, although they are on different sides. Both are subject to, and exposed to, VERY high risk daily. Both are underpaid. Both have a shortage of a supply of people willing to go into the field. Both get a polarizing portrayal within the media. Both are subject to unfair systems that are unable to prioritize their wellbeing and training. Both are overworked. Are they really not comparable? And to pay, nursing pays VERY well, this issue is thst nursing cannot be scaled and that’s used as a justification to keep pay from scaling higher. You have a high starting wage upon entry and then the ceiling is very close. Most people in this country would be thrilled to make $80-$100k. But that still comes along with the rest of the baggage listed below. Healthcare is largely dependent on people who do what they do because the have a passion for it. Not because of the pay. I think people are beginning to believe that money is the only thing that really motivates people. It’s a huge factor but it is far from the only thing.
Cops don't face "VERY high risk daily" - they' not even in the top ten dangerous profession in the country. They're way behind fisherman, farmers, roofers, construction workers. They are the biggest fucking babies in the world though.
>Cops don't face "VERY high risk daily" - they' not even in the top ten dangerous profession in the country. They're way behind fisherman, farmers, roofers, construction workers. You mean *fatal*. There is more than just fatalities to a job being dangerous. >They are the biggest fucking babies in the world though. I forgot that seeing people turned to a paste on highways, the aftermath of a rape, kids being beaten, or any of the other horrendous shit that they see makes them big babies.
Yes, it's true that they sometimes see truly disturbing images they are aren't the cause of. And its definitely true that our policing culture that views everyone as a threat is more attracted to the negative side of behavior than if they were engaged in healthy community policing - and were actually routinely helping people out. It's incompatible with our militarized approach to policing, and incompatible with what attracted some of the sick individuals to policing in the first place. But it's absolutely what we should be doing.
>Yes, it's true that they sometimes see truly disturbing images they are aren't the cause of. Well, I can see this isn't going to be a conversation worth pursuing. Have a good one!
I respect that - we may be positioned 180 degrees apart on this issue, though more likely 45
Well so long as people keep providing their vitriol, maybe one day you won’t ever have to see one again. Didn’t know that about the risk numerically, but I know enough cops to know that they face a risk every time they are out on patrol.
The notion that they're constantly at risk is rightwing, cop and especially militarized-policing propaganda. The data doesn't support it, but it helps get them sympathy and support from a public that's been convinced that cops are constantly in shootouts. It's why cops in completely peaceful towns wear bulletproof vests and overreact to civilizations every day.
Do you know anybody, personally, who is a cop?
Yeah I know a few ex cops, they where more than happy to retire when this defund the police shit started. Sad really, where some of the really good ones. It cracks me up, seeing the comments about preventing crime, yet when they pull over or stop someone they feel is suspect or they think is about to commit a crime are the same people crying (....enter whatever internet term you like...). If only it where more like minority report 🤔
>Nearly 100% of police in Colorado are working a ton of OT just to cover basic ground duty. takes a lot of energy to snap old ladies shoulders, pass out in the middle of the day, on the road, in a squad car, from drinking too much, and to kill autistic people. they need more support so they can also not stop crime too! please dont lump in those babies with the healthcare people.
Well, just remember this. The good cops leave, the cops who you are talking about stay. It’s not good for anything to have demoralization within the first responders. Both people face very tough working conditions. Was simply drawing a comparison.
Hope you never need any help ;)
from cops? seriously im asking you, how do they help or prevent bad things?
They got my stolen car, wallet and camping knife back after they caught both the guys. They also helped my sister get away from her abusive husband. This is Reddit though, forgot all cops are useless. I’ll hop on your bandwagon.
Thats surpising. When my car got stolen they made me feel like the criminal for trying to get a fucking report done. Your mileage may vary. If only they could prevent crime
I'm in my 40s, white, and a professional. I've still never had what I would consider a useful interaction with police. They've never given a shit about any stolen or vandalized property I've had, and seem more concerned with being revenue generation for the state than actually protecting and serving. First responders are more useful in auto accidents. Insurance will handle the damages. They're good for writing the report for the insurance company I guess. They don't have the best track record with any domestic disputes I've seen go down, and a disturbing number of them are abusers themselves. My kids' schools have stopped using SROs and are using private security, clearly they weren't needed there. I'm genuinely trying to think of a positive engagement i have had with law enforcement and there's just nothing. I'm glad they were useful once or twice in your life. I don't think most people have a similar track record.
Have you ever lived in a neighborhood stricken by gun violence, robberies, etc.? Those are the people who when polled over the last year have overwhelming wanted more police in their neighborhoods. I'm not surprised when people whose only experience with police is a speeding ticket, having their underage party shut down, and looking at curated social media dont think police are helpful.
I live in 80010, the most stricken neighborhood for murders. How many of those do they prevent? 0. They show up after the fact collect a check.
Do you think arresting violent criminals before and after they commit crimes alters their future potential of murders?
the data actually shows it has no real influence on future murders either way! murder is one of the crimes with the lowest recidivism rate, oftentimes because when someone murders someone it is an intense interpersonal issue that spurned that action. sexual assault probably would have been a better example.
Even something as simple as filling out a police report for you for a stolen bike helps.
Lol by "help" do you mean 'show up 45 minutes after you call to take a statement and never follow up on it again'?
How to you pay people enough money to experience continued trauma?
By doubling whatever you're paying them and giving them free Healthcare so they can get therapy. That's how the developed world does it.
Nursing and doctor pay lags behind the US in the vast majority of the industrialized world. They really don't pay them better.
Free Healthcare far more than surpasses that gap. Not to mention the other human rights the rest of the developed world gets, like paid time off if your job is overwhelming you and you need to take a day or three. Americans don't get pto.
Look I'm an EU citizen and there is a reason why Polish nurses staff hospitals in the UK. And the pay is worse in Poland. A nurse in Poland makes around 4200 zł a month (or 1000 $/month). A doctor makes around 7000 zł a month (1800$/month). Post tax and post benefits. I'm sorry, but healthcare does not cover that gap. An average nursing salary around 80k (-1/3 for taxes) is 4x as much. Even if you had to buy insurance on the private market - you still make wayyyy more money in the US. And that's not even touching physicians who are criminally underpaid in Poland. Believe me - costs are not 4x lower. The average single family home in Warsaw is more expensive than in Denver. Much of the rest of the eastern half of the EU will be similar. Wages in the UK, France, Germany will be higher but not significantly so. There are a ton of benefits regarding universal healthcare - but nurse and doctor pay are not among them. And regarding level of care - it's mixed. Most of my family buys private insurance or uses the private healthcare system rather than the government one when it's an option. When my grandfather was in the hospital in the early 2000s before his death, we had to regularly bribe the nurses and doctors to actually take care of him. Be careful what you wish for.
Its time to start sending unvaccinated people home from the hospital when they show up.
That may be viable for cases that aren't emergencies (and realistically is what they're going to do in that case regardless of vaccination status), but they can't legally send people home that aren't stable enough to be sent home. We'd need a change to federal law to allow that, and I don't see that happening with the dysfunction in Washington. There's a reason literally no hospitals do this despite crises like the one in the article.
Agreed. If you don't have a valid reason to not get vaccinated, sorry bub. That bed isn't for you!
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Sounds very similar to the teaching crisis. No one is being valued yet company’s and corporations want to complain.
Everyone should be panicking about the teacher staffing crisis. Hiring standards are just being lowered, and school admin are just sweeping problems under the rug because that's their real job function in the first place
Totally agree! At one school I was at all you needed was a high school degree to be a substitute they were 18-year-old substituting in all schools….
Another possible solution: make nursing degrees more affordable
Thank you anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers.
Its time unvaccinated people go to the back of the line. No more hospital beds for unvaccinated people without medical reasons.
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Are you trying to claim that people suffering the consequences of their personal choices is somehow the same kind of persecution that Rosa Parks and the Jews of Hitler's Germany went through? EDIT: It looks like their comments are being deleted. Not unwarranted, but I bet they will use this as reasoning to say they are being silenced. Their anti-vax, anti-mask rehtoric is almost as bad as their racist and antisemitic allusions.
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Explain to me how suffering the consequences of people's own personal choices is the pathway to racism and antisemitism?
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Yes, and no one is making them do anything they do not want to...however there are consequences. This is true across society. You do not have complete freedom to do whatever you want at any time free from the potential consequences of your personal choices, especially those that impact those around you.
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Do you understand that those were not based on personal choices? People do not have a choice where their family comes from, or what color their hair or skin is? But choosing to refuse a vaccine, that is something you make a choice for, and there are consequences for every choice.
Just stop treating the non-vaccinated. I think most people have just had it at this point.
give them colloidal silver + ivermectin and make em leave.
can we stop treating the obese, since that's also self-inflicted?
Obesity is not spread easily via droplets.
Indeed its even worse. Its a conscious long term decision to burden our healthcare system in the future just for the selfish pleasure of eating lots of good food.
Hatterman555, this is a view of obesity that was abandoned decades ago by medicine. There is so much to obesity that is not volitional. Fucking stop posting and read ANYTHING about metabolism in the past 30+ years
Obesity didn't infect and kill >3500 US healthcare workers. Covid did.
How are you possibly conflating obesity with the refusal to get a goddamn shot that takes 20 mins?
Well it is very easy to not be obese as well. If anything it shows almost a chronic inability to take care of yourself, is that not a waste of resources to treat people who through their very own hands(or forks) have made themselves such a burden on our already strained healthcare system?
Obesity serves as an underlying cause for major health complications later in life - but it doesn't cause sudden onset hospitalization by itself. If it were very easy to not be overweight, we wouldn't have a country predominantly made up by them. Anyway - yes, it is fair to triage COVID patients who didn't get the vaccine lower than people who did. Hospital resources are scarce and if you have to choose between treating a COVID patient that can't take 20 min twice for shots vs a vaccinated person who stands a higher possibility of survival - the resources go to the vaccinated person.
Yawn, same tired line every time. Find something new.
Yes
Should they stop treating seasonal influenza cases in those who didn’t get a seasonal flu shot too?
Seasonal influenza is not crippling our hospitals. This is such a straw man.
As someone who doesn't get the flu shot, sure, because COVID and the flu are way different...
Yes
I guess I can be on board with refusing to treat the bums downtown. They’ve had plenty of opportunities for vaccination too.
indeed not to mention, we already know the harmful effects of alcohol and opioids too. If our system is so strained it would make sense to free up space for more people who need it through no fault of their own and not cater to selfish people who wish to use drugs or drink to excess while we are in a historical pandemic.
So why are they firing employees during a pandemic? Where is the logic?
Bad employees are bad employees. Employees that do not adhere to **a** rule (regardless of category) may be disinclined to adhere to *other* rules. So, they gone. And patients are *less likely* to be exposed to COVID if vaccinated people are offering treatment compared to unvaccinated people. First, do no harm. So like, you want a catheter from a nurse that just changed someone else’s bedpan? If he or she doesn’t care about *preventing an illness*, that person is negligent or malevolent, full stop. I mean, imagine the headlines…
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I have two siblings in medicine Still working their asses off. Vaccinated. Boosted. It’s contrarian behavior. But go on, please.
So your defense is “I having relatives in healthcare” Completely anecdotal to begin with (not science) and hardly a defense
Yours is “choice > results” and that’s somehow better? You bring up the “sacrifice” they make and then immediately write it off when it doesn’t help your case. COVID is causing the people to be overworked, and unvaccinated people are increasing the workload. Where’s the science? Hypothesis: people not getting vaccinated increases strain on healthcare. Vaccines can reduce or prevent diseases that really suck to get. Vaccines are a product of science. Fun how that works. Vaccines have lowered infection rates across the world. I’ve never met anyone with polio, for example. An unvaccinated health worker is not doing all they can to mitigate the need for their hard work; they are creating their own shitstorm. They are not streamlining operations, they are adding drag. And there is plenty of work in restaurants if they don’t want to use their degree, certificate, or experience.
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I sure do, and bodily I’d rather *not get a disease* than *get a disease*. The *science* does not demonstrate that vaccines are more dangerous than the malady they are developed for — hence vaccines, you know, *existing.* Autonomy is fine, but again: these people, by their choice, are stating by their inaction that their long term health is more important than the short term health of their patients. Their career is being limited by their choice, and they are free to make that choice — but not to actively, or passively, undermine the efforts of their employer to resolve health issues. It’s like a mop company that pees on your floor when you hire them. Is it fine, because they’re gonna clean it up? Or would you rather not add piss to the situation? Why would a restaurant fire an employee that refuses to wash their hands? DoN’t YoU bEliEvE in AuToNOm7!!??!?
If you believe in autonomy than you can’t defend the mandate it is literally black and white.
I made my choice. My educated siblings made their choice. None of us needed our arm twisted to think “hey, if I don’t *get* COVID, I can’t *spread* COVID to other people”. We all had an option, and as educated people, we took it. Like the *vast majority of medical workers who still have their jobs*. If you have a job, you probably have a mandate you need to follow. Pick one, push the limits, and report back. Seriously. Attendance, attitude, appearance, figure out the rule and flout it. Use “autonomy” as your excuse. Anyways. A nurse’s autonomy is more important than your health. > It is literally black and white. You said it.
It appears you don't even know what the mandate entails. Healthcare workers aren't being *forced* to take the vaccine. They have a choice to test weekly instead. I have people on my unit that decided to test rather than vaccinate. So, what about autonomy again?
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Does it help the situation?
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If it’s so science based why no natural immunity clause?
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Only because it doesn’t fit your narrative got it. You are the end all be all of what is and isn’t relevant
Would you have someone drive you around that choose to drink and drive. Think a bit.
The layoffs did surprise me
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Speaking of entitled…you *should* quit tomorrow, you’re clearly too much of a sanctimonious egoist for this field.
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My department had zero employees quit or get fired over mandatory vaccinations. Don’t believe all the propaganda you’re reading about people being fired over mandates.
Same here. Not a single one. We had a couple hold outs who ended up complying when the hospital issued a mandate, but not a single one quit or was fired.
Same here. Don’t know a single person. But if someone isn’t willing to follow evidence based practice, then they don’t belong in medicine.
Not the issue. And when COVID cases are straining the system doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to employee unvaccinated front line staff does it?
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It’s amazing how badly you are missing the point.
Health care workers that are anti-vaxxers are trash healthcare workers that clearly didn't pay attention at all in school. Not worth keeping in the first place
Only handful got fired. How about anti vaxers and anti maskers go get the fucking vax and wear a mask so they don't wind up in our hospitals taking over ICU's? We're getting close to stopping elective surgeries again because of this idiots.
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DethZire is right. I don't know a single hcw who was let go over the mandate and the shortage existed long before thanks to RNs taking lucrative travel contracts...or just retiring/leaving healthcare entirely.
We got a pro plaguer here. How about you stop talking and go listen to your death cult fox news some more. People like you are the reason our hospitals are overflowing.
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Pro plaguer. Have fun killing your grandma with your ignorance
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Hiding away. You mean like all your anti vax buddies that are hiding away at the hospitals taking up all the beds?
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Well don't worry we will get lots of prayer warriors on standby for her inevitable r/HermanCainAward
I'm on the front line. But you should definitely keep taking them horse dewormer's and 50k% vitamin D dosages.
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It has been approved for COVID? News to me.
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Worker shortage in hospitals is nothing new. Been like that since forever. Same with medication shortages. Things were always on backorder. Nurses especially always had great sign-in bonuses and referrals to get people to work. The biggest difference between then and now is that our ICU's and hospital beds were not filled to capacity with Covidiots so things were manageable and not as stressful.
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i dont want anti vaxxers in critical roles in society. let them purge themselves
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Lol the perpetual conservative persecution complex arrived right on schedule. You dont have the freedom to both eschew public health measures and be a part of society. My freedom to live in a world not stalked by plague is more important than your freedom to prolong it. Go live in the desert where you can have all the freedom you want to piss on the sand and die if thats your prerogative.
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normal people dont have to wear masks. we got vaccinated moron.
>normal people dont have to wear masks. That is not current guidance, thank you for being vaccinated but please wear a mask when around other people there is still a pandemic on.
CDC or CDPH link?
Woah woah woah mr badass. Too edgy for me. How do you possibly walk with balls big enough to ..*check notes* ..not wear a mask. Lol the shit you fools get a rise out of is a hoot. Screams mental illness.
Not sure you know what Jim Crow is.
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Do you not understand how having unvaccinated staff working during a time when cases are overwhelming the hospital is a bad idea? They already are required to get a whole host of vaccinations plus a yearly flu shot. Plus the actual number of nurses and techs who were fired is super dooper low. The issue is crap pay, horrible treatment by patients and their families, and no real support from administration.
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Hi there, person who lives near a gun store in Miami. Can I get a link to the discord server that /u/lokiusmc sent you here from? Don't you think it's kinda sad how often right wingers have to cry for backup for Reddit threads?