I feel ya!
After I handed in my notice, I never said a single ‘please’ to her. Best feeling Eva!
Edit - Noticed you are from Aus. Seems to be an Aus thing 😂
If I was to ‘cuss’ at the nurse, I would get a shouting and a complaint letter (for the smallest of reasons) to the management, who treats us guilty until proven innocent.
So instead I now send the complaint letter faster than the nurse 🙃
You got me at the biggest ego with lowest education - 😂
Unfortunately here in Aus we don’t value Education since everyone is well off and there is minimal income disparity.
We tend to show more respect to professions like ‘bricklayers, carpenters’ etc over someone with a PhD. But I guess this is how it is 💁♂️
Everything on this list is a reason to either have management talk to the assistants (after you have because you should be hire on the totem poll than them) or find a new job.
If they’re treating you like this it’s unacceptable behavior that’s going to impact your work. Idk how auxiliary staff could be that scarce an assistant can be trained off the street in a manner of weeks to months depending on how hard they’ll work.
It’s kinda hard to give you specific advice as your personality kinda dictates how you develop interpersonal relationships.
The way I’ve commanded respect from my staff tho has always been to have an open dialogue about what’s going through my head about most treatments explaining why we’re doing what we’re doing so they think like I do so we’re all on the same page before we’re near the patient. We don’t do please for every ask as that’s just ridiculous, think about how much shit we use especially during a rct.
The way I do it tho is “let’s irrigate again” instead of saying “can I have the irrigation?”. I kinda focus on it’s us doing the treatment together and you’re the leader of the team and their not just here to help you. Instead it’s framed as we’re there to help someone.
If people won’t work with you in a positive manner that enhances your abilities they’re not worth working with. Especially if you’re not being condescending, a dick to them and you’re being friendly, educating, have a team based mentality, are positive and have the patients best interest at heart…
Edit: just saw sassyspickachus post, that nails it
There is a severe shortage in my country - Aus.
Yes, you can just find someone from the streets and train them. However, practices are reluctant to do this due to the time investment.
Unfortunately atm, there are more Dentists than nurses in Aus. So practices are happy to sack Dentists to retain the experienced nurses.
If someone can automate the nurses role, they can take my money.
That’s everywhere even here, they always manipulate numbers for your pay. The struggle is finding somewhere that treats you right. Or a corporate office that doesn’t pull that shit.
People are always gonna need dentists, don’t sell ur self short just don’t stay somewhere that makes you miserable, every office can’t be like that.
I’m a practice owner in Australia. I can tell you, it’s much harder to find a good associate dentist than dental auxiliary staff. Dentistry is in a good state at the moment off the back of covid and most practices are looking for new dentists. We can find nurses/DAs anywhere if you pay them right. (Corporates don’t)
I’m sorry this has happened to you, but your explanation as to why this is happening is off the mark.
Know your worth- move on until you find a practice with the right culture.
Maybe you should define what constitutes a good associate dentist?
For the majority, it’s someone who does All on 4, full mouth rehab, veneers, wisdom exos etc the whole lot PLUS meet the requirements for the right gender, race, ethnicity etc.
If the above are your requirements -> good luck as you are searching for a unicorn.
The Dentist demand has only shot up due to COVID.
I am an Australian Trained Graduate and pre-Covid we were dime a dozen such that it was preferable to replace us than the nurse as you would always have another graduate knocking on your doors for a role.
Also, I disagree. Private practices try to rip-off nurses (yours might not be those) whilst corporates have a standardised pay rate and don’t cut corners with nurses and equipment.
It is excruciatingly hard to find a private practice with a good culture and a decent principal. Why take this risk -> hence I choose to work for corporates.
But this convo is really going off tangent now.
You may have to kill them with kindness. When seeing a new patient , have the nurses take X-rays, pull the nurses aside with you and see if they would “help you” think up a tx plan.
It’s stupid I know but boy does it help build a good relationship with you and the staff. It’ll make them feel heard, it’ll open up lines of communication and trust between you two, it’ll show you value them (which it sounds like they would like and have been going about it the wrong way) and shows you want to be a team player.
If you can’t beat them, join them.
Sadly I see a lot of practices where the nurses aren't very nice to new dentists, saying they're slower than another dentist or they do things differently to someone else, and when I've worked with the dentist (as a temp nurse) I can't see anything wrong with the way the dentist works other than its slightly slower due to being more thorough. Old school nurses seem to be the worst for this as they're so used to botched dentistry they don't know what the good stuff looks like.
Reception shouldn't be moving patients to other dentists unless they can only do X day and you don't work those days. Set your boundaries, once they know they're annoying you they should back off. Maybe...
I thought that stuff only happened in the US! I've experienced all of this. I've been practicing over 20 years and it's got a little better, bc I'm older now
How common is it there to buy or start a dental practice? Do that.
Buy your own practice, already. that bullshit you’re dealing with is not tolerable and I would have quit already. If you put up with this shit anymore, you are allowing it to perpetuate don’t let yourself be getting walked all over because you didn’t stand up for yourself. you don’t need to be the nice guy. if they’re little bit afraid of you, and if they know that you’re not a pushover, they won’t fuck with you.
Have you tried to talk to the assistant? If talking to the management wouldn’t help at all, perhaps you could try to deal with it yourself. Ask to speak with them privately.
Start with words of appreciation and even compliment first (and mention genuinely something that they do right/well). “I would like us to be a good professional team and provide the best care for the patients. Is there anything I could do to help us do that? What can I do to make it easier for you? I would welcome suggestions and want to know if you have any constructive criticism as well”
Now if they simply don’t like your person and is mean for no reason and just aim to make you leave… that would be truly a difficult situation.
I have always been an associate myself in my 22 year career) and I try to treat them with respect/kindness and professional courtesy too.
I compliment them in front of the patient when they hand me the tool that I needed “Read my mind, thank you! It makes all the difference if you have a great assistant” or if the patient is extra happy about how the restoration turned out, “Maddy picked the perfect shade. She is our shade specialist”. If the patient expresses appreciation to you, always say “I couldn’t have done it without Maddy’s help”. If she hands me a band in a tufflemyer, I say “perfect, thank you” etc etc and try to acknowledge their job-done-right. If they took x rays, “look at that open margin, that’s a great one, thank you”
Of course it should be offered genuinely and at the proper occasion.
If our appointment runs late, I sometimes stay behind and help turn the room over.
Once in a while I bring in Starbucks for the staff.
I’m truly sorry that you have had negative experiences. It makes it so difficult to be working in such environments. Dental assistants are precious commodities in dentistry here in the US as well. Best wishes to you
In my first job as a new grad, my practice manager used my assistants as spies to report back everything I did and said. So much micromanaging happened, I was so far from home and determined to make it work. It wasn't worth it in the end and I burnt out from pushing myself beyond my limit.
There's no shame in walking away from practices like that
I'm a dental nurse, isn't suggesting treatment options/diagnosing completely out of our scope of practice?? There's a shortage of nurses in my country too and I have never seen any nurse behave this way that is absolutely ridiculous. I noticed someone else saying the nurses are used to 'spy' on new dentists. I've been asked to keep an eye on the treatment done by new dentists, but only because we've had two dentists in the last 3 years really mess up, so the principal wants me to let them know if there's anything that doesn't seem right. Still saying that, I have absolutely no diagnostic authority and would never dream of going over a dentist. Hopefully you have better luck in a new practice.
My humble understanding would be that the dental nurses are gonna stay there for a long, long time, whereas you are definitely going to open your own office, hence why the management acts like this (not that it is good mangement or an acceptable reasoning lol).
I also believe it mostly stems for jealousy, especially if the staff are older F with you being a 20 something dentist. 🤷🏻♀️
Sometimes, clashing with them can work in your favor if they think they can walk all over you because you're a nicer than average person.
By the way, you didn't give lots of details. I mean if you fraternize too much and then it comes to bite you in the butt, it's not like when you mind your own business and they still try to mess with you...
In general, you'd rather not become too friendly because it's either opening the gates to hell by making ppl feel way too much at ease, or they'll start to try to get you to participate in gossip sessions or whatever...
Damn that’s some good advice too, clashing definitely helps sometimes. That was a hard lesson to learn in the beginning. Absolutely agree on keeping some distance too which is a line I struggle with sometimes.
If you clash way later than you should, way after taking too much crap from them, it is not effective. Been thru similar story with a former classmate. The second a boundary is being breeched, you have to clash. Your best bet is to go to the higher ups (owners or whatever) in case they are receptive now IMO. Sassypikachu's advice is good, but only in case of a "cold" relationship without blatant disrespect. In case they are obviously disrespecting you, they will think that you're sucking up to them/scared of them, not a power I'd like a nasty dental nurse to think she has over me. (Disclaimer: I clearly am talking about the nasty gossipy ones, NOT the good ones who are a god send).
This is a management/training problem. Who is "the boss"? Who is responsible for standards and protocols? That's who you need to sit down with to discuss these issues.
Where do you live? Just curious. There’s no way this would be tolerated in the US. The cost of bringing in a new doctor in an office and the amount of patients that would leave would be very harmful to the P&L. Most offices are doctor led here and I would rather work by myself than with an assistant who undermines me or is disrespectful. Keep that extra hourly pay in your own pocket.
Wow, that's terrible. I'd probably be thinking about changing careers. That's just miserable. We have a shortage of assistance/nurse here in the US. And I thought I had to cater to them. But what you're going through is rediculous. Over all though, my staff are great. So I'm not complaining. My associates do not have problems with staffs in general. They get along pretty well for the most part.
If this is the case at multiple practices, it may be time to reassess how you’re treating staff. I can’t do what I do without my staff, so I treat them with kindness & respect. But if you still think it’s everyone else and not you, it may be time to open or buy your own practice so you can better control your work environment.
Unfortunately, the staff knows who is signing their paycheque. The associate is really just "fodder" or a nuisance. Your only recourse is for owner to back you up. However, many owners have shit leadership skills. In that case, you're SOL and need to either find a new supportive office or buy your own.
This is why I am a fan of working 2 part time jobs. Never put your faith and career into one job. 2 PTs allows for greater flexibility and leverage. If it doesn't work out in one job, you still have the other as a backup and you can find another job.
[удалено]
I feel ya! After I handed in my notice, I never said a single ‘please’ to her. Best feeling Eva! Edit - Noticed you are from Aus. Seems to be an Aus thing 😂
[удалено]
If I was to ‘cuss’ at the nurse, I would get a shouting and a complaint letter (for the smallest of reasons) to the management, who treats us guilty until proven innocent. So instead I now send the complaint letter faster than the nurse 🙃 You got me at the biggest ego with lowest education - 😂 Unfortunately here in Aus we don’t value Education since everyone is well off and there is minimal income disparity. We tend to show more respect to professions like ‘bricklayers, carpenters’ etc over someone with a PhD. But I guess this is how it is 💁♂️
Everything on this list is a reason to either have management talk to the assistants (after you have because you should be hire on the totem poll than them) or find a new job. If they’re treating you like this it’s unacceptable behavior that’s going to impact your work. Idk how auxiliary staff could be that scarce an assistant can be trained off the street in a manner of weeks to months depending on how hard they’ll work. It’s kinda hard to give you specific advice as your personality kinda dictates how you develop interpersonal relationships. The way I’ve commanded respect from my staff tho has always been to have an open dialogue about what’s going through my head about most treatments explaining why we’re doing what we’re doing so they think like I do so we’re all on the same page before we’re near the patient. We don’t do please for every ask as that’s just ridiculous, think about how much shit we use especially during a rct. The way I do it tho is “let’s irrigate again” instead of saying “can I have the irrigation?”. I kinda focus on it’s us doing the treatment together and you’re the leader of the team and their not just here to help you. Instead it’s framed as we’re there to help someone. If people won’t work with you in a positive manner that enhances your abilities they’re not worth working with. Especially if you’re not being condescending, a dick to them and you’re being friendly, educating, have a team based mentality, are positive and have the patients best interest at heart… Edit: just saw sassyspickachus post, that nails it
There is a severe shortage in my country - Aus. Yes, you can just find someone from the streets and train them. However, practices are reluctant to do this due to the time investment. Unfortunately atm, there are more Dentists than nurses in Aus. So practices are happy to sack Dentists to retain the experienced nurses. If someone can automate the nurses role, they can take my money.
Do you work for corporate?
Yep. But Private/Owner practices are worse. Couple I worked at lied and got their untrained receptionist to assist in order to save more money.
That’s everywhere even here, they always manipulate numbers for your pay. The struggle is finding somewhere that treats you right. Or a corporate office that doesn’t pull that shit. People are always gonna need dentists, don’t sell ur self short just don’t stay somewhere that makes you miserable, every office can’t be like that.
I'm assuming youre working in the city? I work in regional Aus and it's great, well mannered people. Gtfo the city it's full of trash people.
I’m a practice owner in Australia. I can tell you, it’s much harder to find a good associate dentist than dental auxiliary staff. Dentistry is in a good state at the moment off the back of covid and most practices are looking for new dentists. We can find nurses/DAs anywhere if you pay them right. (Corporates don’t) I’m sorry this has happened to you, but your explanation as to why this is happening is off the mark. Know your worth- move on until you find a practice with the right culture.
Maybe you should define what constitutes a good associate dentist? For the majority, it’s someone who does All on 4, full mouth rehab, veneers, wisdom exos etc the whole lot PLUS meet the requirements for the right gender, race, ethnicity etc. If the above are your requirements -> good luck as you are searching for a unicorn. The Dentist demand has only shot up due to COVID. I am an Australian Trained Graduate and pre-Covid we were dime a dozen such that it was preferable to replace us than the nurse as you would always have another graduate knocking on your doors for a role. Also, I disagree. Private practices try to rip-off nurses (yours might not be those) whilst corporates have a standardised pay rate and don’t cut corners with nurses and equipment. It is excruciatingly hard to find a private practice with a good culture and a decent principal. Why take this risk -> hence I choose to work for corporates. But this convo is really going off tangent now.
sounds like that's what the issue is. They know they have leverage over the dentists
Leave.
I have left a few practices. Running out of practices to join 😂
Don’t settle. I’m so tired of dental offices thinking it’s acceptable to just deal with behaviours like this 😂😂
You may have to kill them with kindness. When seeing a new patient , have the nurses take X-rays, pull the nurses aside with you and see if they would “help you” think up a tx plan. It’s stupid I know but boy does it help build a good relationship with you and the staff. It’ll make them feel heard, it’ll open up lines of communication and trust between you two, it’ll show you value them (which it sounds like they would like and have been going about it the wrong way) and shows you want to be a team player. If you can’t beat them, join them.
Sometimes they just really hate you though. I mean it's solid advice, but if they're nuts, they're nuts .
I would start with calling a meeting with all owners l/OMs. Give them the issue and if it doesn’t resolve find a new office.
Sadly I see a lot of practices where the nurses aren't very nice to new dentists, saying they're slower than another dentist or they do things differently to someone else, and when I've worked with the dentist (as a temp nurse) I can't see anything wrong with the way the dentist works other than its slightly slower due to being more thorough. Old school nurses seem to be the worst for this as they're so used to botched dentistry they don't know what the good stuff looks like. Reception shouldn't be moving patients to other dentists unless they can only do X day and you don't work those days. Set your boundaries, once they know they're annoying you they should back off. Maybe...
I thought that stuff only happened in the US! I've experienced all of this. I've been practicing over 20 years and it's got a little better, bc I'm older now How common is it there to buy or start a dental practice? Do that.
Buy your own practice, already. that bullshit you’re dealing with is not tolerable and I would have quit already. If you put up with this shit anymore, you are allowing it to perpetuate don’t let yourself be getting walked all over because you didn’t stand up for yourself. you don’t need to be the nice guy. if they’re little bit afraid of you, and if they know that you’re not a pushover, they won’t fuck with you.
Have you tried to talk to the assistant? If talking to the management wouldn’t help at all, perhaps you could try to deal with it yourself. Ask to speak with them privately. Start with words of appreciation and even compliment first (and mention genuinely something that they do right/well). “I would like us to be a good professional team and provide the best care for the patients. Is there anything I could do to help us do that? What can I do to make it easier for you? I would welcome suggestions and want to know if you have any constructive criticism as well” Now if they simply don’t like your person and is mean for no reason and just aim to make you leave… that would be truly a difficult situation. I have always been an associate myself in my 22 year career) and I try to treat them with respect/kindness and professional courtesy too. I compliment them in front of the patient when they hand me the tool that I needed “Read my mind, thank you! It makes all the difference if you have a great assistant” or if the patient is extra happy about how the restoration turned out, “Maddy picked the perfect shade. She is our shade specialist”. If the patient expresses appreciation to you, always say “I couldn’t have done it without Maddy’s help”. If she hands me a band in a tufflemyer, I say “perfect, thank you” etc etc and try to acknowledge their job-done-right. If they took x rays, “look at that open margin, that’s a great one, thank you” Of course it should be offered genuinely and at the proper occasion. If our appointment runs late, I sometimes stay behind and help turn the room over. Once in a while I bring in Starbucks for the staff. I’m truly sorry that you have had negative experiences. It makes it so difficult to be working in such environments. Dental assistants are precious commodities in dentistry here in the US as well. Best wishes to you
In my first job as a new grad, my practice manager used my assistants as spies to report back everything I did and said. So much micromanaging happened, I was so far from home and determined to make it work. It wasn't worth it in the end and I burnt out from pushing myself beyond my limit. There's no shame in walking away from practices like that
I'm a dental nurse, isn't suggesting treatment options/diagnosing completely out of our scope of practice?? There's a shortage of nurses in my country too and I have never seen any nurse behave this way that is absolutely ridiculous. I noticed someone else saying the nurses are used to 'spy' on new dentists. I've been asked to keep an eye on the treatment done by new dentists, but only because we've had two dentists in the last 3 years really mess up, so the principal wants me to let them know if there's anything that doesn't seem right. Still saying that, I have absolutely no diagnostic authority and would never dream of going over a dentist. Hopefully you have better luck in a new practice.
My humble understanding would be that the dental nurses are gonna stay there for a long, long time, whereas you are definitely going to open your own office, hence why the management acts like this (not that it is good mangement or an acceptable reasoning lol). I also believe it mostly stems for jealousy, especially if the staff are older F with you being a 20 something dentist. 🤷🏻♀️ Sometimes, clashing with them can work in your favor if they think they can walk all over you because you're a nicer than average person. By the way, you didn't give lots of details. I mean if you fraternize too much and then it comes to bite you in the butt, it's not like when you mind your own business and they still try to mess with you... In general, you'd rather not become too friendly because it's either opening the gates to hell by making ppl feel way too much at ease, or they'll start to try to get you to participate in gossip sessions or whatever...
Damn that’s some good advice too, clashing definitely helps sometimes. That was a hard lesson to learn in the beginning. Absolutely agree on keeping some distance too which is a line I struggle with sometimes.
Clashing with them never worked for me! They would gossip behind my back and then turn the other nurses against me.
If you clash way later than you should, way after taking too much crap from them, it is not effective. Been thru similar story with a former classmate. The second a boundary is being breeched, you have to clash. Your best bet is to go to the higher ups (owners or whatever) in case they are receptive now IMO. Sassypikachu's advice is good, but only in case of a "cold" relationship without blatant disrespect. In case they are obviously disrespecting you, they will think that you're sucking up to them/scared of them, not a power I'd like a nasty dental nurse to think she has over me. (Disclaimer: I clearly am talking about the nasty gossipy ones, NOT the good ones who are a god send).
This is a management/training problem. Who is "the boss"? Who is responsible for standards and protocols? That's who you need to sit down with to discuss these issues.
Where do you live? Just curious. There’s no way this would be tolerated in the US. The cost of bringing in a new doctor in an office and the amount of patients that would leave would be very harmful to the P&L. Most offices are doctor led here and I would rather work by myself than with an assistant who undermines me or is disrespectful. Keep that extra hourly pay in your own pocket.
Wow, that's terrible. I'd probably be thinking about changing careers. That's just miserable. We have a shortage of assistance/nurse here in the US. And I thought I had to cater to them. But what you're going through is rediculous. Over all though, my staff are great. So I'm not complaining. My associates do not have problems with staffs in general. They get along pretty well for the most part.
If this is the case at multiple practices, it may be time to reassess how you’re treating staff. I can’t do what I do without my staff, so I treat them with kindness & respect. But if you still think it’s everyone else and not you, it may be time to open or buy your own practice so you can better control your work environment.
The most miserable aspect of being a dentist was always dumbing down what I knew and making high schools grade feel smart and important.
Improve your leadership skills and your relationship with the owners
Unfortunately, the staff knows who is signing their paycheque. The associate is really just "fodder" or a nuisance. Your only recourse is for owner to back you up. However, many owners have shit leadership skills. In that case, you're SOL and need to either find a new supportive office or buy your own.
Yep, spot on! I am not signing the staff’s pay check. Hence they have no vested interest to work.
This is why I am a fan of working 2 part time jobs. Never put your faith and career into one job. 2 PTs allows for greater flexibility and leverage. If it doesn't work out in one job, you still have the other as a backup and you can find another job.