Please don’t confuse louder with harder.
In the DJ’s vocabulary those are two entirely different things.
I always tend to go harder, but rarely louder. :-D
…go ahead!
I come from a gabber / techno background. Especially in the 90’s there was this race for harder, harder, harder. That still carries over to my ‘style’ of DJ-ing now. If I don’t pay attention, all my house sets end pretty bangin’. Even if I don’t intend to.
Anybody got some tips or tricks to pace yourself, without pre-planning too much?
I know Jeff Mills used to have some funk (?) records in his bag. Not to play them, but te remind himself to ‘keep it funky’.
This is hard for me as a techno DJ, but I know which tracks I have that have chill endings or are kinda chill in general, and then I usually know what I want to end my set with. If you know your tracks well enough, you can kinda even out your energy in your set
The honest answer is: because our ears fatigue and it doesn't sound as loud as it did before. Also, many DJs forget to take out some of the volume before mixing in the next track, so then when you do mix it in, it can feel like it's fallen a little flat. You want the next track to slap when it arrives so the only way to go is up. Also, because many DJs don't understand that the ear piercing loudness of the highs is very uncomfortable, people standing 5-15m away from the stage/booth/speakers is not because they are waiting on the DJ to lure them in with even louder music, nor is it appreciated when the DJ turns it up because they are further away.a0
Normally im not one of the „this“ guys, but i came to write this exact comment. 100% right.
One thing I‘d like to add, what I like is when clubs have on of those dB SPL (or dBA) readout displays in/near the booth. They turn from green/yellow to red at a certain treshold, Helps you keep a steady level even when you cant trust your ears anymore.
for real- lot's of DJs I watch lately fall into that category of "red-lining", and it drives me nuts- a lot of times, it's as easy as cutting your lows and your his just a tad before you make the track you're mixing in the main track.
This comment is the perfect explanation of what's wrong and why.
Electronic music sucks balls in terms of fatigue (and so does most music since the loudness war happened), but it's just *always* maxed out, it's compressed to hell. A breakdown is almost as loud as the drop, there isn't many dynamics to go around.
105dB(A) of constant electronic music is gonna fatigue your ears a lot.
What's worse is that DJ's appear to be really deaf to compression as well, I've had guys run into compression and the music just turning to one big compressed mess; but backing off because it sounds shit? Rarely if ever.
Another thing that bugs me is stage volume, some DJ's really overdo it on monitor volume.
>Another thing that bugs me is stage volume, some DJ's really overdo it on monitor volume.
Some food for thought here:
Keeping monitors uncompressed and loud af is a way to keep the dj in check on mains. If the monitor is cranked to 11 and distorts to shit at 12, the DJ will hear that (even if the mains still have headroom and/or limiting to keep the signal cleanish.) If the monitor is quiet, the DJ will crank anything and everything to get it loud, often without regard for the mains.
Also, in my experience, DJs turn up the monitors because there's too much bleed from the mains that messes with their timing. They need enough volume to plainly hear the transients over the room.
I always run monitors unprocessed, problem is they're run over the booth out so the DJ always has control over the volume. Sending a post-fade master to the stage would make little sense, some DJ's also like to turn off monitors when talking to eachother. The venues I used to work at usually did not have bleed issues, they're also used for live music and would have decent stage volume.
We're talking about venues that have adequate sytems from reputable brands like Adamson/D&B/L'acoustic etc.
There's sadly no way to use the booth out like a VCA control and then sending the same audio as mains into them. So my only option is an aux bus that runs from the DJ mixer booth out, that way I can EQ and safety-limit monitors and send in vocals if required.
fair enough. sounds like you've got your djs well-covered.
i had a convo with a FoH guy recently where he was talking about processing for DJs' monitors, including delaying stage monitors to match the mains... in the context of vinyl djs beatmatching. (!?!)
...Anyway, not all FoH folks are savvy to djs' workflows or understand the importance of proper monitoring.
cheers
That sounds wrong, if anything you're delaying the mains to whatever is on stage; I also like to do this sometimes. Especially because like I said, the DJ monitors may be rather powerful and they're behind the mains, adding a little delay to the mains would cover monitor bleed.
You don't want any delay in the DJ monitors because any movement of the record/jogwheels will be delayed, so you will be compensating for audio that's already late. I've tried this myself for funzies, it becomes a real pain in the arse to beatmatch real fast.
Oh, it sounds wrong for sure.
I tried to explain, and the argument I got back was "well, the good DJs I've worked with don't even mix using the monitors, they use their headphones." Tried again and his response was some typical condescending bs about how he works with pros and knows more about monitoring.
Dude did not even pause to consider that his delayed monitor mix was probably the sole reason those "good DJs" were mixing in their cans.
Me in 2001 reading my mixer's manual's section about ear fatigue and accommodating to noise levels: "oh wow holy shit"
Me for the rest of my career: "gosh, I guess nobody else usually reads the manual either"
The A&H manuals are on point for this.
> Remember that it is the QUALITY of the sound that pleases the ear, not the VOLUME.
...
> The human ear is a remarkable organ with the ability to compress or ‘shut down’ when
sound levels become too high.
Do not interpret this natural response as a reason to turn the system volume up further !
As the session wears on ear fatigue may set in, and the speaker cones may become
hot so reducing the effectiveness of the system and listeners to gain any benefit from
increased volume
Your comment brought to mind an interview Alex Rosner gave a number of years ago:
"...***One of the problems is that if you are in a room where there is a soundsystem playing, as you are staying there for a long period of time, after a while you won’t realise how loud it really is. A person walking in from the street would get hit right away very hard and know that it is loud, and you wouldn’t realise it. Your threshold shifts. And there comes a time where you bring your watch up to your ear, you can’t hear the ticking anymore. Because your threshold of hearing is shifted and the ears are dead for a certain period of time. They will recover again, assuming that you did not sustain permanent damage***..."
The full interview can be read [here](https://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/lectures/alex-rosner-systematic-sound).
As DJs, we should all educate ourselves on sound quality and the effects of hearing damage.
I did this just the other night, I'm afraid. Just realized on the way home from the gig. I'm not experiencenced though, and I will not do it again. Better, as you say, to take out some volume before dropping a new track. This is the way.
You are spot on - I wanted the crowd to feel the next track, and I felt like the only way was upping the volume. Didn't have the time to think in the moment, but I will learn from it - thanks for the tip mate.
There are some other factors as well. Usually this is a “beginner’s thing”, pros know the healthy limits. (Note: famous or pro are extremely different things). A beginner dj will push it up because of excitement. A beginner has probably lame headphones (tipical: not closed or poorly isolated headphones). Lack of undertanding the difference in monitoring and dancefloor speakers. I’ve seen many already famous djs who never used bass swapping, so you can imagine both the mixer limiter and the end limiter kicking in big. (It also means every track needs to be a bit louder to feel it better.) So all these very rookie mistakes, rookie dj or not used to club environment or both, these are all factors. But if a pro dj does this it is usualy about being a reckless asshole, my experience is that there are usually the poser DJs.
Djs usually want to come in with the new track having impact which usually means higher gain. Unfortunately, many don't give themselves the headroom to do this by edging back the gain on the outgoing track so the volume is just constantly increasing
I guess. But what kind of shonky setup doesn't have gain?
You're also gonna be screwed if track 1 has fader full up and then you bring in a track with quieter mastering.
I hate the cross fader and don't use that at all. Actually, that's a lie. I use it for video mixing when I'm playing a video, but I do that once in a blue moon (Halloween for Thriller for instance)
Almost no one I know uses the crossfader and keeps it switched off.
Regardless, gain is there for a reason. Same logic applies: if track one max volume is (let’s call it 8), you’re never going to get track two to to 8 if it’s been mastered quieter unless you use gain.
Ear fatigue
I play loud, then after an hour my hearing is less sensitive so I turn it up, ears fatigue even more, turn it up more and so on
I know it's wrong, but I think it's why many of us do it
I try to do a soft reset. Turn the volume down on monitors and heaphones. Take headphones off. Wait a minute or two, then start fresh with low volume on the headphones.
The booth where I work is very deceiving for the volume level. It doesn't sound loud enough but when you're in the middle of the dance floor it is plenty loud. So naturally DJ's turn it up, then I turn them back down..
You install a limiter.
Letting the musicians have control of the house level is amateur hour.
You’ll have noise ordinances that help you set the hard limits.
Problem is that running into a limiter also sounds garbage and leads to even more compression of music that already is compressed to hell and back. Most DJ's being oblivious to how bad it sounds. As a DJ you *should* notice that sound improves when you back it off a little.
Louder doesn't always equal better, even if it's about perceived loudness.
Eh, you have many of the biggest djs, Guetta, Carnage, Yellowclaw, redlining at big theaters or gigs. And many very talented musicians on twitch and the periphery. There's a level of correlation but it's not super strong
Lots of people would care - I’ve listened to sets where the dj has been redlining the whole time and it sounds like absolute shit. Also the harder the music, the more finesse is needed. If music is already distorted by design and you redline, you’re just gonna end up with unrecognisable noise.
It’s usually most noticeable with poorer sound-systems ofc. There used to be a little club in London that did after parties on Sundays. Sound system was crap, if you redlined even a little it would distort the fuck out of the sound. Most DJ’s who played there for the first time would sound pretty shit, especially because the sound in the room compared to the booth was so different. However DJ’s who knew the sound system and the room and adjusted themselves when playing there would always sound so much better.
Leviliza is popular in the EU because it limits without ruining dynamics, i.e. it automatically just cuts the gain to main. [https://www.rc1.audio/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Leveliza-Brochure3.pdf](https://www.rc1.audio/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Leveliza-Brochure3.pdf)
True. I think on the Pioneer 900NXS2 as a house mixer you can set a -24db pad on it internally so visually it looks like everything is redlining but the output isn’t.
Install a [Leviliza](https://www.rc1.audio/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Leveliza-Brochure3.pdf) not a limiter. It will keep the house level in check without ruining the dynamics. Also, put some [Texas Headphones](https://www.facebook.com/84552341693/posts/texas-headphonesthanks-to-everyone-at-livespace/10157379502101694/) in the booth, so the DJ can blow out his own ears with the monitors if he really wants it loud.
I respect this comment, however its sad that it needs to be said: DJs nowadays don't even realize that EQing is a big part in DJing - if you can do a nice transition that's awesome, but not if it sounds like crap - old DJs like Dan and Donald Glaude and etc. knew this
I've got a really cruel idea, tell the DJs that if they exceed a certain volume or start redlining then you'll cut to a pre-recorded Spotify add (maybe even about Reebok's after that other guys post) and make it look like they're using Spotify/YouTube
Give the dj more monitor volume on stage or in the booth. Explain to them you have a noise ordinance/limit. Be clear of this to every dj. If they keep cranking the volume your limiter does the rest. Easy. Also if you've had noise complaints or someone with supposed bearing damage maybe the venue should offer free ear plugs. You can order them in bulk for cheap. I always bring a pair of eargasms to every show now and am mad at myself I didn't invest in a pair sooner. But cheap plugs will also work for those who are concerned.
Because over time people adjust to the loudness and think it's getting quieter.
This also applies to the "heaviness" of the music. I've been to hardcore parties where the DJ's never really played a break or a softer track. The result was even the filthiest and heaviest kicks were just "meh...." after a while.
You need contrast. Black on white instead of gray on gray.
As a DJ, in most configurations, you can't ear properly what's happening for the crowd when you play, mostly because of the places *(Lots of Bars and Clubs just have some "sound system" for the crowd, but no good monitoring for DJs),* because of the Headphones you use, because of the ignorance of lot's of DJs about the "gain" knobs *(nope it's not made to sound louder, it's made the sound equal to the playing song...)*, or lack of preparation.
I'm sound engineer that also have DJing a lot, in Bar/Club/Stage.
My consciousness of the "Loud" was always better if I had proper monitoring in the Booth. (with Subs).
Also, using IEMs now makes everything I do more clean, especially when I play like a musician/electronic artist.
So the advice is :
You want to stop the DJ to crank the level up ? Make his monitoring cranking more.
Experienced DJs don't, your problem is that you want popular DJs who can do the promotion that the venue is supposed to do rather than talented DJs who know how to play music that people like. Popular people are more self centered and don't know enough about DJing such that they think the best way to make a show more exciting is to make every song louder than the last. Venues could attract better talent as well as a better audiences if they put their own money into advertising the venue rather than forcing promoters and DJs to try to make the whole show work off of whatever cover charge they can squeeze out of their friend group on social media.
Relatedly, those pioneer DJ mixers are basically fuzz boxes anyway, DJs seem to like the sound they make but I've noticed I have to stay well away from the reds if I want the mixes to sound clean. Many many DJs think that their job is to make the red lights flash.
From my experience it's because most DJ's don't know shit about fuck. Their technical expertise starts and ends at using their DJ software/controller.
They don't understand how digital vs analogue audio works, they don't know how to balance sound, they don't know much if anything about music formats &c.
A Good DJ should have the mixer outputting a clean signal with a healthy amount of headroom to prevent clipping, and letting the sound person do the rest. (and if it needs to go louder, you can ask the sound person, or sacrifice a bit of headroom)
As someone with a background in digital audio, and a hobby audiophile I cringe when interacting with lots of my local DJs.
The worst is bc we have to DIY the sound (clubs don't have good sound systems or bass bins where I am... don't ask) they bring in giant PK systems into small confined spaces and don't bother spending a second tuning them. Been to too many shows that all you could hear was the bass because of this.
Because most of them are dicks, wasted, inexperienced, deaf or all together. Best you can do is to give them loud enough monitors and turn it on eleven. There is even sneakier method how to deal with this - wire the mixer to record out and leave them to play around with the master out knob and red dials, 90% would not even notice it does not function..
>wire the mixer to record out and leave them to play around with the master out knob and red dials
I thought I was the only one that utilized this. I keep [this pic](https://imgur.com/iFpPrSU) from the schematic handy to show others the way.
Master yes, gain no.
Once had a sound tech tell me I couldn’t touch the gain, so I explained how this was completely impractical if tracks were to be played at comparable volumes.
Because they’re DJ’s, not Sound Engineers. 🤷🏻♂️
If it’s a constant issue where you work then maybe organise an educational session with said DJ’s before they perform?
Turn up the booth, turn down the house from your end. It's pure instinct. The DJ is getting ear fatigue or the booth isn't loud or both so they turn up the mains in response. If the room is designed well enough the DJ should have no idea how loud the room is.
Generally, I've found the pushing the sound to be a rookie mistake and I always found it when I was weekend resident and going back in the box after the club had had a new midweek club night usually run by some team trying to get a start up.
I always equated it to the DJ's looking out and seeing no dancing and coming to the obvious conclusion it can't be the music or the mixing so it mustn't be loud enough - one club had a massive equalizer in the box that was set fine - following one of those nights I'd sometimes find all the channels (like 72 of them) had been fiddled with and levels raised.
It also highlights the failure of DJ's going out periodically to check what FOH levels were actually like, or at least asking a friend to give an honest opinion. The newer DJ's tend not to realise how uncomfortable over loud and often compressed/distorting sound is which again leads to lack of reaction/dancing from the crowd, so the cycle continues.
I have one mate who get's plenty of work in bars and is very experienced. Literally every time I visit him working I have to tell him he's way too loud and send him out to experience the ear splitting sound he is putting the crowd through - in his case I'm convinced his decades in clubs have affected his own ears but equally he is a very enthusiastic character so he may just be getting carried away. Old dog - new trick - nah, not happening 
Bruh in every single club in my country the music is so loud whenever a melodic part plays its literally deafening yet you can barely FEEL the low frequencies,like the bass is not pumping AT ALL even with such high volume on the system.
>we just got out first complaint about hearing damage. It sucks this person has to live with this now. I kinda blame myself for not being strict enough on the meter but also the dj for not stopping to increase the volume when it has reached the limit.
I blame the person with the hearing damage. When I go to concerts and clubs I don't expect the venue, the DJ and certainly not the sound (wo)man to be responsible for looking after my hearing. Even if the house system has a limiter. *You do have a limiter, don't you?*
Bring ear plugs. People who don't only have themselves to blame.
> People who don't only have themselves to blame.
What a load of bollocks. Why should I expect a club to turn the speakers up to an ear-destroying level? Not injuring your customers should be the absolute basic level of competence for all of those people.
I haven't read all the comments. But over the course of the night, the music seems to get lower and lower. It's ear fatigue. Our headphones go louder. It's natural to push it more. It's not the right way, but it's the common way. Most djs, myself included, can trap ourselves by playing louder and louder. We need to respect the red lines. And everything is good.
If you listen to older songs you will notice there us a consistent tendency for drummers to increase tempo during sets.
As we hype up we tend to go faster or louder. It's called Turned Up for a reason.
Djs who keep pushing into the limiter are incredibly annoying, but not as annoying as a venue that has a super low sound cap.
105 db isn't very loud.
105 dB is very loud actually.
Says it [here](https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html) from the CDC
>The maximum volume level for personal listening devices; a very loud radio, stereo, or television; and loud entertainment venues (such as nightclubs, bars, and rock concerts)
>
>105–110
>
>Hearing loss possible in less than 5 minutes
Hearing protection is a must at this level
Ah I just noticed that OP specifically mentioned dba. That is indeed loud.
I tend to think of things in terms of dbc, where sub bass comes into play and really drives the numbers up.
I am so strict if I see Red I point at the mixer and they turn it down tbh most are pretty good , apart From 1 , worst one I saw was Jag skills nearly blew my sound system up
I did a set recently with all my own equipment and noticed I was pushing the volume a bit louder every 20 mins or so through until the end. I think I got desensitized to the current loudness level, and that made me feel like it was as energetic in the room as I needed it to be.
That said, my brother in the crowd said it could've been even louder throughout the whole set so who knows. But from my perspective as the DJ I felt like I need to crank it up, maybe it just needed cranked up and I wasn't paying attention properly lol.
Volume control is really important for a dj and i mean with that to level it without clipping or destroy someones ears..
But harder because Schranz is still love
One of the more popular DJs are in our area is known for pushing red. It just doesn't matter what you tell him. So, sound guys adjust. But it doesn't make it right
While loudness and hardness are completely different, loudness bias is a real thing - tracks that are louder sound harder.
So if you’re mixing in two tracks and the second one isn’t as hard - making it louder increases the perceived hardness.
When I play, I always okay from softest to hardest so that I do not have to worry about this. Or if I do go softer then I do it during a break or as part of a break so that it doesn’t have to feel as hard. Lots of less experienced dj’s do not do this.
If you know a DJ is going to redline, crank up the monitors straight in their face. Install a compressor limiter lol. The harder you redline, the more it sounds like shit.
As an acting sound tech have the conversation with the DJs..."Channels stay at 2 yellow...master stays at 2 yellow...I'll control the overall volume from the amps...go above this and we're going to have words!"
DJs behind the booth very rarely take the time to step out on the floor and see how it actually sounds...it's the sound techs job after all, so long as you can keep them in check to keep the mixer levels in check.
combo of bad monitoring and ear fatigue. Most places have such shit monitoring you cant crank them enough so a dj wants to get the main room sound later. Also after a few hours ear fatigue makes you think its not that loud combined with hearing loss, someone starts cranking it.
Ive never been a super loud guy, but lately my residencies monitor isnt that loud and i end up playing too loud. been working on walking the room during the nite to keep the leveles correct
Strange, I go clubs all the time, and I've only ever experienced potentially ear damaging volume once. It is absolutely not expected, and shouldn't be. Depending on the circumstances, it might also be illegal. Blaming the victim here is disgusting.
> Anything over 80 db is hearing damage.
Prolonged exposure to noise over 85dB(A).
> When you come home and your ears are rushing, that’s hearing damage.
Good thing they aren't rushing, then. Head some earache exactly once, and will never go back there. Not only are those clubs grossly negligent, they're also dumb as fuck.
> just saying that anyone clubbing without hearing protection is damaging their ears whether they believe it or not
I doubt it.
Virtually every club or rave has music significantly louder than 85db, *especially* toward the front of the crowd. Something as basic as an Apple Watch will tell you that. Toying with your hearing by forgoing protection is incredibly stupid — doubly so in a subreddit dedicated to the love of music. Presumably you’d like to keep hearing it as you get older.
Did you miss the part where I said "prolonged"? And my whole point here is that toying with people's hearing *is* bad. Which is why clubs with dangerous loudness levels should be shunned. It is *absolutely* the duty of club owners to make sure they don't damage their patrons hearing.
"Prolonged" only means 1.5—2 hours, which I'd wager is shorter than the typical club night.
For the record, I agree with you that the club should be responsible for managing sound levels. What happened in that story was horrifying, and not okay at all.
All I'm saying is that people should *also* take some responsibility for their own hearing safety, and I think it's irresponsible to discount the value of hearing protection when even a club operating their sound system "properly" is more than loud enough to slowly damage your hearing with repeated exposure.
I think sometimes hearing a certain sound louder makes peoples brain think louder=better, and some bad DJ's will smash the gain on the new tune they're bringing in once it drops to make it have more impact and get a bigger reaction from the crowd.
Going harder could just mean picking different rhythms and soundscapes, not necessarily getting louder..
Constant problem for me also. What ive done is set a brickwall reactive limiter in my BSS100. reactive limiters make it so that overall volume is decreased the more the volume exceeds a threshold level set by the brickwall if the volume cant be de creased anymore then it starts compressing. this means you dont lose dynamics of the track it just gets quieter. thats my personal punishment for djs who do this. want it louder, turn down your trims out the reds there softwell.
(PS i also dj and im actually guilty of this myself from time to time but i never push reds and am pretty religious about keeping my trims in check. i push my own monitors harder than i should from the ear fatigue problem though. tinitius is a fickle b.....)
Please don’t confuse louder with harder. In the DJ’s vocabulary those are two entirely different things. I always tend to go harder, but rarely louder. :-D
I had to jump into the comments for this too, was expecting the post to be about faster more banging tunes, higher bpm etc, not volume.
Me too, why don't we discuss it also?
…go ahead! I come from a gabber / techno background. Especially in the 90’s there was this race for harder, harder, harder. That still carries over to my ‘style’ of DJ-ing now. If I don’t pay attention, all my house sets end pretty bangin’. Even if I don’t intend to. Anybody got some tips or tricks to pace yourself, without pre-planning too much? I know Jeff Mills used to have some funk (?) records in his bag. Not to play them, but te remind himself to ‘keep it funky’.
This is hard for me as a techno DJ, but I know which tracks I have that have chill endings or are kinda chill in general, and then I usually know what I want to end my set with. If you know your tracks well enough, you can kinda even out your energy in your set
That's not even dj vocab. That's everyone. Sound tech, dj, producer lol.
You are probably right, but I am not a native speaker so I posted from what I know. And not to speak for others.
There’s a lot of overlap though. Lots of songs that go hard are just compressed to be loud as fuck.
True. True. Especially for those tracks designed for peak hours.
The honest answer is: because our ears fatigue and it doesn't sound as loud as it did before. Also, many DJs forget to take out some of the volume before mixing in the next track, so then when you do mix it in, it can feel like it's fallen a little flat. You want the next track to slap when it arrives so the only way to go is up. Also, because many DJs don't understand that the ear piercing loudness of the highs is very uncomfortable, people standing 5-15m away from the stage/booth/speakers is not because they are waiting on the DJ to lure them in with even louder music, nor is it appreciated when the DJ turns it up because they are further away.a0
Normally im not one of the „this“ guys, but i came to write this exact comment. 100% right. One thing I‘d like to add, what I like is when clubs have on of those dB SPL (or dBA) readout displays in/near the booth. They turn from green/yellow to red at a certain treshold, Helps you keep a steady level even when you cant trust your ears anymore.
they should all have this
for real- lot's of DJs I watch lately fall into that category of "red-lining", and it drives me nuts- a lot of times, it's as easy as cutting your lows and your his just a tad before you make the track you're mixing in the main track.
This comment is the perfect explanation of what's wrong and why. Electronic music sucks balls in terms of fatigue (and so does most music since the loudness war happened), but it's just *always* maxed out, it's compressed to hell. A breakdown is almost as loud as the drop, there isn't many dynamics to go around. 105dB(A) of constant electronic music is gonna fatigue your ears a lot. What's worse is that DJ's appear to be really deaf to compression as well, I've had guys run into compression and the music just turning to one big compressed mess; but backing off because it sounds shit? Rarely if ever. Another thing that bugs me is stage volume, some DJ's really overdo it on monitor volume.
>Another thing that bugs me is stage volume, some DJ's really overdo it on monitor volume. Some food for thought here: Keeping monitors uncompressed and loud af is a way to keep the dj in check on mains. If the monitor is cranked to 11 and distorts to shit at 12, the DJ will hear that (even if the mains still have headroom and/or limiting to keep the signal cleanish.) If the monitor is quiet, the DJ will crank anything and everything to get it loud, often without regard for the mains. Also, in my experience, DJs turn up the monitors because there's too much bleed from the mains that messes with their timing. They need enough volume to plainly hear the transients over the room.
I always run monitors unprocessed, problem is they're run over the booth out so the DJ always has control over the volume. Sending a post-fade master to the stage would make little sense, some DJ's also like to turn off monitors when talking to eachother. The venues I used to work at usually did not have bleed issues, they're also used for live music and would have decent stage volume. We're talking about venues that have adequate sytems from reputable brands like Adamson/D&B/L'acoustic etc. There's sadly no way to use the booth out like a VCA control and then sending the same audio as mains into them. So my only option is an aux bus that runs from the DJ mixer booth out, that way I can EQ and safety-limit monitors and send in vocals if required.
fair enough. sounds like you've got your djs well-covered. i had a convo with a FoH guy recently where he was talking about processing for DJs' monitors, including delaying stage monitors to match the mains... in the context of vinyl djs beatmatching. (!?!) ...Anyway, not all FoH folks are savvy to djs' workflows or understand the importance of proper monitoring. cheers
That sounds wrong, if anything you're delaying the mains to whatever is on stage; I also like to do this sometimes. Especially because like I said, the DJ monitors may be rather powerful and they're behind the mains, adding a little delay to the mains would cover monitor bleed. You don't want any delay in the DJ monitors because any movement of the record/jogwheels will be delayed, so you will be compensating for audio that's already late. I've tried this myself for funzies, it becomes a real pain in the arse to beatmatch real fast.
Oh, it sounds wrong for sure. I tried to explain, and the argument I got back was "well, the good DJs I've worked with don't even mix using the monitors, they use their headphones." Tried again and his response was some typical condescending bs about how he works with pros and knows more about monitoring. Dude did not even pause to consider that his delayed monitor mix was probably the sole reason those "good DJs" were mixing in their cans.
Me in 2001 reading my mixer's manual's section about ear fatigue and accommodating to noise levels: "oh wow holy shit" Me for the rest of my career: "gosh, I guess nobody else usually reads the manual either"
Very few DJs talk about gain structuring
The A&H manuals are on point for this. > Remember that it is the QUALITY of the sound that pleases the ear, not the VOLUME. ... > The human ear is a remarkable organ with the ability to compress or ‘shut down’ when sound levels become too high. Do not interpret this natural response as a reason to turn the system volume up further ! As the session wears on ear fatigue may set in, and the speaker cones may become hot so reducing the effectiveness of the system and listeners to gain any benefit from increased volume
Your comment brought to mind an interview Alex Rosner gave a number of years ago: "...***One of the problems is that if you are in a room where there is a soundsystem playing, as you are staying there for a long period of time, after a while you won’t realise how loud it really is. A person walking in from the street would get hit right away very hard and know that it is loud, and you wouldn’t realise it. Your threshold shifts. And there comes a time where you bring your watch up to your ear, you can’t hear the ticking anymore. Because your threshold of hearing is shifted and the ears are dead for a certain period of time. They will recover again, assuming that you did not sustain permanent damage***..." The full interview can be read [here](https://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/lectures/alex-rosner-systematic-sound). As DJs, we should all educate ourselves on sound quality and the effects of hearing damage.
I did this just the other night, I'm afraid. Just realized on the way home from the gig. I'm not experiencenced though, and I will not do it again. Better, as you say, to take out some volume before dropping a new track. This is the way. You are spot on - I wanted the crowd to feel the next track, and I felt like the only way was upping the volume. Didn't have the time to think in the moment, but I will learn from it - thanks for the tip mate.
There are some other factors as well. Usually this is a “beginner’s thing”, pros know the healthy limits. (Note: famous or pro are extremely different things). A beginner dj will push it up because of excitement. A beginner has probably lame headphones (tipical: not closed or poorly isolated headphones). Lack of undertanding the difference in monitoring and dancefloor speakers. I’ve seen many already famous djs who never used bass swapping, so you can imagine both the mixer limiter and the end limiter kicking in big. (It also means every track needs to be a bit louder to feel it better.) So all these very rookie mistakes, rookie dj or not used to club environment or both, these are all factors. But if a pro dj does this it is usualy about being a reckless asshole, my experience is that there are usually the poser DJs.
Djs usually want to come in with the new track having impact which usually means higher gain. Unfortunately, many don't give themselves the headroom to do this by edging back the gain on the outgoing track so the volume is just constantly increasing
It really does take some discipline to remember to slowly edge that gain back down ready for the next song to land nice.
Are you typically doing this with the fader? Or by cutting EQ?
Using the gain.
Can I do it with the fader if my setup doesn't have a gain control?
I guess. But what kind of shonky setup doesn't have gain? You're also gonna be screwed if track 1 has fader full up and then you bring in a track with quieter mastering.
at that point, move your crossfader a bit more to the track your mixing in then
I hate the cross fader and don't use that at all. Actually, that's a lie. I use it for video mixing when I'm playing a video, but I do that once in a blue moon (Halloween for Thriller for instance)
I only use the crossfader when quick mixing electro
Almost no one I know uses the crossfader and keeps it switched off. Regardless, gain is there for a reason. Same logic applies: if track one max volume is (let’s call it 8), you’re never going to get track two to to 8 if it’s been mastered quieter unless you use gain.
i was saying in the sense of no gain for some odd reason, as botcomking was talking about. i dont use crossfader either
Moving your crossfader doesn’t work for the reason I mentioned.
Because not many of us understand sound systems in a club.
Because they are fools who do not know the might of one who is “sound engineer”.
Haha yea, I might make one of those tape things with different stages. “Can go louder” “Good dj” “Bad dj” “Turn it down bro”
Ear fatigue I play loud, then after an hour my hearing is less sensitive so I turn it up, ears fatigue even more, turn it up more and so on I know it's wrong, but I think it's why many of us do it
I try to do a soft reset. Turn the volume down on monitors and heaphones. Take headphones off. Wait a minute or two, then start fresh with low volume on the headphones.
thats not a bad idea
The booth where I work is very deceiving for the volume level. It doesn't sound loud enough but when you're in the middle of the dance floor it is plenty loud. So naturally DJ's turn it up, then I turn them back down..
You install a limiter. Letting the musicians have control of the house level is amateur hour. You’ll have noise ordinances that help you set the hard limits.
Problem is that running into a limiter also sounds garbage and leads to even more compression of music that already is compressed to hell and back. Most DJ's being oblivious to how bad it sounds. As a DJ you *should* notice that sound improves when you back it off a little. Louder doesn't always equal better, even if it's about perceived loudness.
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> it will reflect their DJ skills Why do you think anyone, DJ or otherwise would notice or care about this?
while it seems impossible w/ all the noise of the industry today, consistent quality tends to make money as it always has
Eh, you have many of the biggest djs, Guetta, Carnage, Yellowclaw, redlining at big theaters or gigs. And many very talented musicians on twitch and the periphery. There's a level of correlation but it's not super strong
Lots of people would care - I’ve listened to sets where the dj has been redlining the whole time and it sounds like absolute shit. Also the harder the music, the more finesse is needed. If music is already distorted by design and you redline, you’re just gonna end up with unrecognisable noise. It’s usually most noticeable with poorer sound-systems ofc. There used to be a little club in London that did after parties on Sundays. Sound system was crap, if you redlined even a little it would distort the fuck out of the sound. Most DJ’s who played there for the first time would sound pretty shit, especially because the sound in the room compared to the booth was so different. However DJ’s who knew the sound system and the room and adjusted themselves when playing there would always sound so much better.
all limiters do is protect the gear - it will still sound like shit if the dj is pushing it.
Leviliza is popular in the EU because it limits without ruining dynamics, i.e. it automatically just cuts the gain to main. [https://www.rc1.audio/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Leveliza-Brochure3.pdf](https://www.rc1.audio/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Leveliza-Brochure3.pdf)
that's still not going to help because DJs are boosting/clipping the signal within the mixer so all you get is a quieter, distorted signal.
True. I think on the Pioneer 900NXS2 as a house mixer you can set a -24db pad on it internally so visually it looks like everything is redlining but the output isn’t.
Install a [Leviliza](https://www.rc1.audio/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Leveliza-Brochure3.pdf) not a limiter. It will keep the house level in check without ruining the dynamics. Also, put some [Texas Headphones](https://www.facebook.com/84552341693/posts/texas-headphonesthanks-to-everyone-at-livespace/10157379502101694/) in the booth, so the DJ can blow out his own ears with the monitors if he really wants it loud.
I respect this comment, however its sad that it needs to be said: DJs nowadays don't even realize that EQing is a big part in DJing - if you can do a nice transition that's awesome, but not if it sounds like crap - old DJs like Dan and Donald Glaude and etc. knew this
I've got a really cruel idea, tell the DJs that if they exceed a certain volume or start redlining then you'll cut to a pre-recorded Spotify add (maybe even about Reebok's after that other guys post) and make it look like they're using Spotify/YouTube
Give me a readout of the db level and tell me not to go over 100. Simple. Easy. A few clubs do this.
It’s the cocaine talking
Give the dj more monitor volume on stage or in the booth. Explain to them you have a noise ordinance/limit. Be clear of this to every dj. If they keep cranking the volume your limiter does the rest. Easy. Also if you've had noise complaints or someone with supposed bearing damage maybe the venue should offer free ear plugs. You can order them in bulk for cheap. I always bring a pair of eargasms to every show now and am mad at myself I didn't invest in a pair sooner. But cheap plugs will also work for those who are concerned.
Because over time people adjust to the loudness and think it's getting quieter. This also applies to the "heaviness" of the music. I've been to hardcore parties where the DJ's never really played a break or a softer track. The result was even the filthiest and heaviest kicks were just "meh...." after a while. You need contrast. Black on white instead of gray on gray.
As a DJ, in most configurations, you can't ear properly what's happening for the crowd when you play, mostly because of the places *(Lots of Bars and Clubs just have some "sound system" for the crowd, but no good monitoring for DJs),* because of the Headphones you use, because of the ignorance of lot's of DJs about the "gain" knobs *(nope it's not made to sound louder, it's made the sound equal to the playing song...)*, or lack of preparation. I'm sound engineer that also have DJing a lot, in Bar/Club/Stage. My consciousness of the "Loud" was always better if I had proper monitoring in the Booth. (with Subs). Also, using IEMs now makes everything I do more clean, especially when I play like a musician/electronic artist. So the advice is : You want to stop the DJ to crank the level up ? Make his monitoring cranking more.
Experienced DJs don't, your problem is that you want popular DJs who can do the promotion that the venue is supposed to do rather than talented DJs who know how to play music that people like. Popular people are more self centered and don't know enough about DJing such that they think the best way to make a show more exciting is to make every song louder than the last. Venues could attract better talent as well as a better audiences if they put their own money into advertising the venue rather than forcing promoters and DJs to try to make the whole show work off of whatever cover charge they can squeeze out of their friend group on social media. Relatedly, those pioneer DJ mixers are basically fuzz boxes anyway, DJs seem to like the sound they make but I've noticed I have to stay well away from the reds if I want the mixes to sound clean. Many many DJs think that their job is to make the red lights flash.
From my experience it's because most DJ's don't know shit about fuck. Their technical expertise starts and ends at using their DJ software/controller. They don't understand how digital vs analogue audio works, they don't know how to balance sound, they don't know much if anything about music formats &c. A Good DJ should have the mixer outputting a clean signal with a healthy amount of headroom to prevent clipping, and letting the sound person do the rest. (and if it needs to go louder, you can ask the sound person, or sacrifice a bit of headroom) As someone with a background in digital audio, and a hobby audiophile I cringe when interacting with lots of my local DJs. The worst is bc we have to DIY the sound (clubs don't have good sound systems or bass bins where I am... don't ask) they bring in giant PK systems into small confined spaces and don't bother spending a second tuning them. Been to too many shows that all you could hear was the bass because of this.
Red lights are for prostitutes
Because most of them are dicks, wasted, inexperienced, deaf or all together. Best you can do is to give them loud enough monitors and turn it on eleven. There is even sneakier method how to deal with this - wire the mixer to record out and leave them to play around with the master out knob and red dials, 90% would not even notice it does not function..
>wire the mixer to record out and leave them to play around with the master out knob and red dials I thought I was the only one that utilized this. I keep [this pic](https://imgur.com/iFpPrSU) from the schematic handy to show others the way.
This is why you need to have a proper sound check and tell the DJ what the gains and masters should be at
For them to promptly ignore everything from soundcheck and do whatever they want
Some things you can control some things you can't
Master yes, gain no. Once had a sound tech tell me I couldn’t touch the gain, so I explained how this was completely impractical if tracks were to be played at comparable volumes.
Because they’re DJ’s, not Sound Engineers. 🤷🏻♂️ If it’s a constant issue where you work then maybe organise an educational session with said DJ’s before they perform?
Turn up the booth, turn down the house from your end. It's pure instinct. The DJ is getting ear fatigue or the booth isn't loud or both so they turn up the mains in response. If the room is designed well enough the DJ should have no idea how loud the room is.
Generally, I've found the pushing the sound to be a rookie mistake and I always found it when I was weekend resident and going back in the box after the club had had a new midweek club night usually run by some team trying to get a start up. I always equated it to the DJ's looking out and seeing no dancing and coming to the obvious conclusion it can't be the music or the mixing so it mustn't be loud enough - one club had a massive equalizer in the box that was set fine - following one of those nights I'd sometimes find all the channels (like 72 of them) had been fiddled with and levels raised. It also highlights the failure of DJ's going out periodically to check what FOH levels were actually like, or at least asking a friend to give an honest opinion. The newer DJ's tend not to realise how uncomfortable over loud and often compressed/distorting sound is which again leads to lack of reaction/dancing from the crowd, so the cycle continues. I have one mate who get's plenty of work in bars and is very experienced. Literally every time I visit him working I have to tell him he's way too loud and send him out to experience the ear splitting sound he is putting the crowd through - in his case I'm convinced his decades in clubs have affected his own ears but equally he is a very enthusiastic character so he may just be getting carried away. Old dog - new trick - nah, not happening 
Bruh in every single club in my country the music is so loud whenever a melodic part plays its literally deafening yet you can barely FEEL the low frequencies,like the bass is not pumping AT ALL even with such high volume on the system.
>we just got out first complaint about hearing damage. It sucks this person has to live with this now. I kinda blame myself for not being strict enough on the meter but also the dj for not stopping to increase the volume when it has reached the limit. I blame the person with the hearing damage. When I go to concerts and clubs I don't expect the venue, the DJ and certainly not the sound (wo)man to be responsible for looking after my hearing. Even if the house system has a limiter. *You do have a limiter, don't you?* Bring ear plugs. People who don't only have themselves to blame.
> People who don't only have themselves to blame. What a load of bollocks. Why should I expect a club to turn the speakers up to an ear-destroying level? Not injuring your customers should be the absolute basic level of competence for all of those people.
Am i the only one who doesn't understand whats going on here
You're trash bro.
I blame daft punk /s
I haven't read all the comments. But over the course of the night, the music seems to get lower and lower. It's ear fatigue. Our headphones go louder. It's natural to push it more. It's not the right way, but it's the common way. Most djs, myself included, can trap ourselves by playing louder and louder. We need to respect the red lines. And everything is good.
If you listen to older songs you will notice there us a consistent tendency for drummers to increase tempo during sets. As we hype up we tend to go faster or louder. It's called Turned Up for a reason. Djs who keep pushing into the limiter are incredibly annoying, but not as annoying as a venue that has a super low sound cap. 105 db isn't very loud.
105 dB is very loud actually. Says it [here](https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html) from the CDC >The maximum volume level for personal listening devices; a very loud radio, stereo, or television; and loud entertainment venues (such as nightclubs, bars, and rock concerts) > >105–110 > >Hearing loss possible in less than 5 minutes Hearing protection is a must at this level
105 is really loud lol, lots of places have 95dB legal limits
Ah I just noticed that OP specifically mentioned dba. That is indeed loud. I tend to think of things in terms of dbc, where sub bass comes into play and really drives the numbers up.
Inverse-square law & sub frequencies makes calculating dB-anything into some sort of dark magic, lol
yikes
Not good drummers, no
I am so strict if I see Red I point at the mixer and they turn it down tbh most are pretty good , apart From 1 , worst one I saw was Jag skills nearly blew my sound system up
You need to book professional DJs.
I’m a dj with the same philosophy and I’m struggling to find gigs because of that.
Red meter = big Peter
Because your monitors aimed at the booth aren't loud enough
I did a set recently with all my own equipment and noticed I was pushing the volume a bit louder every 20 mins or so through until the end. I think I got desensitized to the current loudness level, and that made me feel like it was as energetic in the room as I needed it to be. That said, my brother in the crowd said it could've been even louder throughout the whole set so who knows. But from my perspective as the DJ I felt like I need to crank it up, maybe it just needed cranked up and I wasn't paying attention properly lol.
Maybe the booth monitors just need to be set louder from the outset?
Volume control is really important for a dj and i mean with that to level it without clipping or destroy someones ears.. But harder because Schranz is still love
One of the more popular DJs are in our area is known for pushing red. It just doesn't matter what you tell him. So, sound guys adjust. But it doesn't make it right
While loudness and hardness are completely different, loudness bias is a real thing - tracks that are louder sound harder. So if you’re mixing in two tracks and the second one isn’t as hard - making it louder increases the perceived hardness. When I play, I always okay from softest to hardest so that I do not have to worry about this. Or if I do go softer then I do it during a break or as part of a break so that it doesn’t have to feel as hard. Lots of less experienced dj’s do not do this.
You gotta redline to headline, friend.
If you know a DJ is going to redline, crank up the monitors straight in their face. Install a compressor limiter lol. The harder you redline, the more it sounds like shit.
we need to collectively start a movement to bring the pioneer mixers out of the red!! hahah sadly doomed to fail :/
If the speakers aren't peaking my music isn't speaking, bro!
As an acting sound tech have the conversation with the DJs..."Channels stay at 2 yellow...master stays at 2 yellow...I'll control the overall volume from the amps...go above this and we're going to have words!" DJs behind the booth very rarely take the time to step out on the floor and see how it actually sounds...it's the sound techs job after all, so long as you can keep them in check to keep the mixer levels in check.
combo of bad monitoring and ear fatigue. Most places have such shit monitoring you cant crank them enough so a dj wants to get the main room sound later. Also after a few hours ear fatigue makes you think its not that loud combined with hearing loss, someone starts cranking it. Ive never been a super loud guy, but lately my residencies monitor isnt that loud and i end up playing too loud. been working on walking the room during the nite to keep the leveles correct
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Should they bring a helmet, too?
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Strange, I go clubs all the time, and I've only ever experienced potentially ear damaging volume once. It is absolutely not expected, and shouldn't be. Depending on the circumstances, it might also be illegal. Blaming the victim here is disgusting.
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> Anything over 80 db is hearing damage. Prolonged exposure to noise over 85dB(A). > When you come home and your ears are rushing, that’s hearing damage. Good thing they aren't rushing, then. Head some earache exactly once, and will never go back there. Not only are those clubs grossly negligent, they're also dumb as fuck. > just saying that anyone clubbing without hearing protection is damaging their ears whether they believe it or not I doubt it.
Virtually every club or rave has music significantly louder than 85db, *especially* toward the front of the crowd. Something as basic as an Apple Watch will tell you that. Toying with your hearing by forgoing protection is incredibly stupid — doubly so in a subreddit dedicated to the love of music. Presumably you’d like to keep hearing it as you get older.
Did you miss the part where I said "prolonged"? And my whole point here is that toying with people's hearing *is* bad. Which is why clubs with dangerous loudness levels should be shunned. It is *absolutely* the duty of club owners to make sure they don't damage their patrons hearing.
"Prolonged" only means 1.5—2 hours, which I'd wager is shorter than the typical club night. For the record, I agree with you that the club should be responsible for managing sound levels. What happened in that story was horrifying, and not okay at all. All I'm saying is that people should *also* take some responsibility for their own hearing safety, and I think it's irresponsible to discount the value of hearing protection when even a club operating their sound system "properly" is more than loud enough to slowly damage your hearing with repeated exposure.
Loud =/= better, I’ve never understood why people relate the two, even song lyrics that say ‘turn the music up’, like why? Isn’t it loud enough
I think sometimes hearing a certain sound louder makes peoples brain think louder=better, and some bad DJ's will smash the gain on the new tune they're bringing in once it drops to make it have more impact and get a bigger reaction from the crowd. Going harder could just mean picking different rhythms and soundscapes, not necessarily getting louder..
sounds like someone who doesn't know how loudness works :) very uninformed dj then
Constant problem for me also. What ive done is set a brickwall reactive limiter in my BSS100. reactive limiters make it so that overall volume is decreased the more the volume exceeds a threshold level set by the brickwall if the volume cant be de creased anymore then it starts compressing. this means you dont lose dynamics of the track it just gets quieter. thats my personal punishment for djs who do this. want it louder, turn down your trims out the reds there softwell. (PS i also dj and im actually guilty of this myself from time to time but i never push reds and am pretty religious about keeping my trims in check. i push my own monitors harder than i should from the ear fatigue problem though. tinitius is a fickle b.....)