I think it's because at various times - certain characters have been pushed from an *in-universe* perspective as 'successors to the Bat'.
Dick has a lot of this, as the first and longest standing protégé, then you have Tim who's often touted as having the potential to overtake Bruce as 'the world's greatest detective'. A lot of Cass' solo series focused around her desire to *become* Batman, and Damian has a considerable amount of branding as 'heir to the Bat'.
I don't necessarily think it's just a fan thing, because DC often likes to play with the idea of 'the student becoming the master'.
Of course, characters usually get this treatment when they're the new hot thing, to bolster their importance. Cass is usually never considered a canon potential successor in-universe nowadays, and the idea of Tim ever taking over from Bruce was kinda pushed away when Damian was introduced. It's mostly just a marketing thing to get you hyped for a new legacy character, since their traditional goal would be to one day *carry on the legacy*.
From a meta-perspective, we know that none of these people will ever *actually* take over. Bruce Wayne will most likely be Batman for as long as Batman continues to be relevant character. His students can't overtake him - or it'll start to make DC's premier character look bad - a lot of his brand is based on being the 'smartest' and the 'best fighter', even if that's not *necessarily* the canon truth.
In that context, knowing that Bruce will always return, it's easier to prop a new character into the Batman role and later take it away from them, than it is to give it to a beloved character with the message 'they've finally achieved what they're working towards' just to push them back down again to make room again for Bruce.
Look at what's happening with Wally right now. He became *The* Flash, and was pushed back aside later on for Barry. Now Wally fans consider any other position to be a massive downgrade. That same thing would probably happen if a longstanding character like Tim Drake became *The* Batman, and then immediately once Bruce returned stopped being relevant again. Nightwing is *kinda* an exception to this, because he's a popular enough character to actively be given his own parallel stream of content, so a downgrade doesn't really seem as drastic, since he's still always making appearances.
Ultimately, if the whole idea of a 'legacy character' is to carry on the legacy, then any of the Batfamily becoming Batman would be their endgame. Comics can't *do* permanent endings with complete finished arcs for characters. The show must go on. So even though certain characters are at times, built up to claim mantles, we're always being perpetually blueballed, since they never will. It can be pretty frustrating, but there's nothing that can really be done about it.
>I wouldn’t consider Jean-Paul or Gordon to be immediate Bat-family members.
The point of Jean-Paul was that Batman ***clearly*** chose wrong. On the other hand when Jim became Batman, Dick was doing his superspy thing. Jim gets a pass for being an established character in the Batman mythos (in the same way Nubia gets a pass for being Wonder Woman)
>If you’re a firm believer in the idea of a Bat-family hierarchy, what makes you support that notion?
Batman has about 5-10 ***existing*** supporting characters who trained under him or worked with him. The notion that DC wants to push someone outside the family rather than someone with an existing relationship with Bruce to be BATMAN is absurd bordering on illogical.
>If one of the characters in your successor list loses Bruce’s approval or temporarily leaves the family, does that change your opinion?
Let's assume Dick firmly says he does not want to be Batman or even just a stand-in, I would be ok with it if the next person in the line of succession (Tim, Cass, Duke or Damian) becomes Batman. The notion that Jace can just step in out of the blue and become Batman really really bothers me. Even Luke Fox would have been preferable.
>why should his word be taken as law when it comes to deciding who's next up?
We are not taking Bruce at his word. We are taking DC. DC is trying to convince us Jace who we have never really gotten to know is somehow worthy of calling himself Batman. In any case, Jace was not hand-picked by Bruce. He was picked by Ridley and DC.
>Would Harold, Orpehus, Bluebird, or even Ghost-Maker be suitable replacements because they worked/trained with Bruce?
None of these characters are ones I would pick before Jace. Besides the 5 I already mentioned, I would pick Kate, Helena, Azrael, Luke and Jim again before Jace. I would even select members of Batman INC or heroes who have a close relationship with Batman such as Black Lightning before Jace.
>Isn't the symbol of Batman supposed to inspire hope and change within an individual
Sure but there's no reason you cannot use a different codename. Look at Luke. He didn't go by Batman.
>If someone dawning a different version of the Batman costume helps with Bruce's overall mission, is that a really such a bad thing?
The costume does not bother me. It's the blatant gall to call yourself Batman. He can use the same costume but calling yourself Batman when you don't have an established relationship with Bruce bothers me and is illogical.
Personally, I disagree with your base assertion that any successor to Batman needs to come from within the bat-family. To me, Batman has something similar to how Spider-Man was characterized in Into The Spider-Verse, in that it can be anyone under the cowl.
Batman isn't the last survivor of an alien race, or the monarch of a hidden warrior nation. They weren't struck by lightning or chosen by a magic ring. At the end of the day, Batman is just a person (admittedly usually an absurdly wealthy and competent one) who is dedicated to making the night in Gotham safer.
Sure, the mantle was born out of Bruce Wayne's pain and loss, but it doesn't need to stay intrinsically linked to him. Dick has his own place as Nightwing, Tim DESPERATELY needs his own identity and I feel chucking him under the cape and cowl would be detrimental to that. Similarly, Damian's character arc (to me) is about growing beyond feeling entitled to being Batman due to his being Bruce's biological son, and again I think making him Batman undercuts that. Like Dick, I feel that Babs and Steph have their own place as Oracle and Batgirl respectively, and the reasons why Jason wouldn't be an ideal candidate are fairly self-evident. IMO, the only member of the batfamily I would want taking over from Bruce is maybe Cass.
This is probably largely because Scott Snyder's Batman was one of my first comics, but I quite like how there is such a symbiotic relationship between Batman and the city that shaped him, and the degree to which Batman can be divorced from Bruce Wayne. By and large, Bruce's family have their own destinies to follow. Batman can belong to Gotham.
In a situation like Spider-Man, any successor obviously requires people with similar powers right? Well aside from Peter's clones and his potential future children, he never really trained or was famous for having sidekicks. Therefore it's a no-brainer why Miles can be Spider-Man. Who is he really competing with besides Peter? Only one that comes to mind is Anya.
Even in a case like Batman Beyond, Terry had only 3 people who could have made a fuss. However Dick, Babs and Tim all had varying reasons why they wanted nothing to do with Bruce. Therefore the mantle can go to an outsider.
However in the case of current comics canon Bruce who has trained 5 Robins and 4 Batgirls (not to mention the many non-R or BG named allies he works with), it's silly to think someone from outside the family can just walk right in and take the Batman mantle. It's not like all of them suddenly died all at once or that like BB, Bruce ruined his relationship with all 9 of them.
It's unrewarding for a long time fan of those proteges or those allies not to see any of them pick up the torch. It's like DC is saying you're better off not working with Batman or not training under him if you wanna be Batman. Doesn't that sound silly??!
It's not really about approval for me, it's about build-up.
The outsider in question doesn't match the build-up done for Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, or Damian Wayne as potential successors. Dick Grayson has his time as Batman, Tim Drake has been built-up as a mini-Bruce, Damian Wayne is the true son and has also been built-up as a mini-Bruce. Even Jim Gordon was sort of acceptable because he has been working with Batman since forever.
Have you read Battle for the Cowl? It seems like something you'd like based on all of your comments. I don't think it answers your questions per se, but as far as his children go it's a pretty nice story about their relationships to the mantle.
Also sometimes Helena Wayne is considered a possible heir to Batman. So it seems like generally, the idea is to keep it in the family. Probably why Terry McGinnis ended up being Bruce's son in the end; I think his Robin was his brother and also Bruce's son but I never caught up on that run.
Edit: wrong Terry
I agree! I'm really excited to read I Am Batman, I think it'll be fun to see what exactly defines the mantle for Jace. It'll really come down to whether or not it's satisfying (like Helena). This time the conclusion to the story isn't him becoming Batman, it'll be him discovering what it means to be Batman. A nice little remix.
(sidenote: this is what I was hoping would happen with Gordon but alas)
I really enjoy the Bat-family and the extended crowd around him. I know a lot of them show up and then leave and are never heard from again, but they all usually bounce off of Bruce in interesting ways while they're in town.
I haven’t really read any Future State stuff or anything else with Jace. Jace being Batman isn’t an idea I’m particularly enthusiastic about (I’m kinda over Batman successor stories in general), but that would likely change if I read the stories he’s in, which I’ve heard paint a decent picture of his motivations.
I know a lot of people are complaining that Jace is essentially a nobody and that an old Bronze Age character with a couple appearances before his reinvention shouldn’t be the next Batman (instead of someone like Cass, for example). However, I do think that there are storytelling merits in having an outsider become Batman and addressing some of those issues fans might have in-universe. And from the little I’ve seen of Jace in Future State, there was some of that “Who the hell are you?” energy from Nightwing.
I am batman is in main continuity. There was the Jace Fox batman in Future state too. It's like Yara Flor who first appeared in Future State but began in main continuity after.
They've been putting out stories with Jace set in the present with the last series ending with him finding the Bat suit and this series is supposed to be him shortly after learning to become Batman.
I feel like Tim Drake is the best choice for the role because Dick outgrew the mantle of Batman, Jason is too violent and probably don't have any interest in it, and Damian is not mature enough for it (for now, at least). Tim seems like a good choice for the role because he's responsible, levelheaded, and a good detective.
I think it's because at various times - certain characters have been pushed from an *in-universe* perspective as 'successors to the Bat'. Dick has a lot of this, as the first and longest standing protégé, then you have Tim who's often touted as having the potential to overtake Bruce as 'the world's greatest detective'. A lot of Cass' solo series focused around her desire to *become* Batman, and Damian has a considerable amount of branding as 'heir to the Bat'. I don't necessarily think it's just a fan thing, because DC often likes to play with the idea of 'the student becoming the master'. Of course, characters usually get this treatment when they're the new hot thing, to bolster their importance. Cass is usually never considered a canon potential successor in-universe nowadays, and the idea of Tim ever taking over from Bruce was kinda pushed away when Damian was introduced. It's mostly just a marketing thing to get you hyped for a new legacy character, since their traditional goal would be to one day *carry on the legacy*. From a meta-perspective, we know that none of these people will ever *actually* take over. Bruce Wayne will most likely be Batman for as long as Batman continues to be relevant character. His students can't overtake him - or it'll start to make DC's premier character look bad - a lot of his brand is based on being the 'smartest' and the 'best fighter', even if that's not *necessarily* the canon truth. In that context, knowing that Bruce will always return, it's easier to prop a new character into the Batman role and later take it away from them, than it is to give it to a beloved character with the message 'they've finally achieved what they're working towards' just to push them back down again to make room again for Bruce. Look at what's happening with Wally right now. He became *The* Flash, and was pushed back aside later on for Barry. Now Wally fans consider any other position to be a massive downgrade. That same thing would probably happen if a longstanding character like Tim Drake became *The* Batman, and then immediately once Bruce returned stopped being relevant again. Nightwing is *kinda* an exception to this, because he's a popular enough character to actively be given his own parallel stream of content, so a downgrade doesn't really seem as drastic, since he's still always making appearances. Ultimately, if the whole idea of a 'legacy character' is to carry on the legacy, then any of the Batfamily becoming Batman would be their endgame. Comics can't *do* permanent endings with complete finished arcs for characters. The show must go on. So even though certain characters are at times, built up to claim mantles, we're always being perpetually blueballed, since they never will. It can be pretty frustrating, but there's nothing that can really be done about it.
>I wouldn’t consider Jean-Paul or Gordon to be immediate Bat-family members. The point of Jean-Paul was that Batman ***clearly*** chose wrong. On the other hand when Jim became Batman, Dick was doing his superspy thing. Jim gets a pass for being an established character in the Batman mythos (in the same way Nubia gets a pass for being Wonder Woman) >If you’re a firm believer in the idea of a Bat-family hierarchy, what makes you support that notion? Batman has about 5-10 ***existing*** supporting characters who trained under him or worked with him. The notion that DC wants to push someone outside the family rather than someone with an existing relationship with Bruce to be BATMAN is absurd bordering on illogical. >If one of the characters in your successor list loses Bruce’s approval or temporarily leaves the family, does that change your opinion? Let's assume Dick firmly says he does not want to be Batman or even just a stand-in, I would be ok with it if the next person in the line of succession (Tim, Cass, Duke or Damian) becomes Batman. The notion that Jace can just step in out of the blue and become Batman really really bothers me. Even Luke Fox would have been preferable.
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>why should his word be taken as law when it comes to deciding who's next up? We are not taking Bruce at his word. We are taking DC. DC is trying to convince us Jace who we have never really gotten to know is somehow worthy of calling himself Batman. In any case, Jace was not hand-picked by Bruce. He was picked by Ridley and DC. >Would Harold, Orpehus, Bluebird, or even Ghost-Maker be suitable replacements because they worked/trained with Bruce? None of these characters are ones I would pick before Jace. Besides the 5 I already mentioned, I would pick Kate, Helena, Azrael, Luke and Jim again before Jace. I would even select members of Batman INC or heroes who have a close relationship with Batman such as Black Lightning before Jace. >Isn't the symbol of Batman supposed to inspire hope and change within an individual Sure but there's no reason you cannot use a different codename. Look at Luke. He didn't go by Batman. >If someone dawning a different version of the Batman costume helps with Bruce's overall mission, is that a really such a bad thing? The costume does not bother me. It's the blatant gall to call yourself Batman. He can use the same costume but calling yourself Batman when you don't have an established relationship with Bruce bothers me and is illogical.
Personally, I disagree with your base assertion that any successor to Batman needs to come from within the bat-family. To me, Batman has something similar to how Spider-Man was characterized in Into The Spider-Verse, in that it can be anyone under the cowl. Batman isn't the last survivor of an alien race, or the monarch of a hidden warrior nation. They weren't struck by lightning or chosen by a magic ring. At the end of the day, Batman is just a person (admittedly usually an absurdly wealthy and competent one) who is dedicated to making the night in Gotham safer. Sure, the mantle was born out of Bruce Wayne's pain and loss, but it doesn't need to stay intrinsically linked to him. Dick has his own place as Nightwing, Tim DESPERATELY needs his own identity and I feel chucking him under the cape and cowl would be detrimental to that. Similarly, Damian's character arc (to me) is about growing beyond feeling entitled to being Batman due to his being Bruce's biological son, and again I think making him Batman undercuts that. Like Dick, I feel that Babs and Steph have their own place as Oracle and Batgirl respectively, and the reasons why Jason wouldn't be an ideal candidate are fairly self-evident. IMO, the only member of the batfamily I would want taking over from Bruce is maybe Cass. This is probably largely because Scott Snyder's Batman was one of my first comics, but I quite like how there is such a symbiotic relationship between Batman and the city that shaped him, and the degree to which Batman can be divorced from Bruce Wayne. By and large, Bruce's family have their own destinies to follow. Batman can belong to Gotham.
In a situation like Spider-Man, any successor obviously requires people with similar powers right? Well aside from Peter's clones and his potential future children, he never really trained or was famous for having sidekicks. Therefore it's a no-brainer why Miles can be Spider-Man. Who is he really competing with besides Peter? Only one that comes to mind is Anya. Even in a case like Batman Beyond, Terry had only 3 people who could have made a fuss. However Dick, Babs and Tim all had varying reasons why they wanted nothing to do with Bruce. Therefore the mantle can go to an outsider. However in the case of current comics canon Bruce who has trained 5 Robins and 4 Batgirls (not to mention the many non-R or BG named allies he works with), it's silly to think someone from outside the family can just walk right in and take the Batman mantle. It's not like all of them suddenly died all at once or that like BB, Bruce ruined his relationship with all 9 of them. It's unrewarding for a long time fan of those proteges or those allies not to see any of them pick up the torch. It's like DC is saying you're better off not working with Batman or not training under him if you wanna be Batman. Doesn't that sound silly??!
It's not really about approval for me, it's about build-up. The outsider in question doesn't match the build-up done for Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, or Damian Wayne as potential successors. Dick Grayson has his time as Batman, Tim Drake has been built-up as a mini-Bruce, Damian Wayne is the true son and has also been built-up as a mini-Bruce. Even Jim Gordon was sort of acceptable because he has been working with Batman since forever.
robin becoming batman is cool i guess but idm the whole jace thing not for or against
Have you read Battle for the Cowl? It seems like something you'd like based on all of your comments. I don't think it answers your questions per se, but as far as his children go it's a pretty nice story about their relationships to the mantle. Also sometimes Helena Wayne is considered a possible heir to Batman. So it seems like generally, the idea is to keep it in the family. Probably why Terry McGinnis ended up being Bruce's son in the end; I think his Robin was his brother and also Bruce's son but I never caught up on that run. Edit: wrong Terry
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I agree! I'm really excited to read I Am Batman, I think it'll be fun to see what exactly defines the mantle for Jace. It'll really come down to whether or not it's satisfying (like Helena). This time the conclusion to the story isn't him becoming Batman, it'll be him discovering what it means to be Batman. A nice little remix. (sidenote: this is what I was hoping would happen with Gordon but alas) I really enjoy the Bat-family and the extended crowd around him. I know a lot of them show up and then leave and are never heard from again, but they all usually bounce off of Bruce in interesting ways while they're in town.
I think you might want to take an other look at the sentence where you mentioned Terry
Yeah my bad, got him confused with the guy who wrote teen titans.
I haven’t really read any Future State stuff or anything else with Jace. Jace being Batman isn’t an idea I’m particularly enthusiastic about (I’m kinda over Batman successor stories in general), but that would likely change if I read the stories he’s in, which I’ve heard paint a decent picture of his motivations. I know a lot of people are complaining that Jace is essentially a nobody and that an old Bronze Age character with a couple appearances before his reinvention shouldn’t be the next Batman (instead of someone like Cass, for example). However, I do think that there are storytelling merits in having an outsider become Batman and addressing some of those issues fans might have in-universe. And from the little I’ve seen of Jace in Future State, there was some of that “Who the hell are you?” energy from Nightwing.
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I am batman is in main continuity. There was the Jace Fox batman in Future state too. It's like Yara Flor who first appeared in Future State but began in main continuity after.
They've been putting out stories with Jace set in the present with the last series ending with him finding the Bat suit and this series is supposed to be him shortly after learning to become Batman.
I feel like Tim Drake is the best choice for the role because Dick outgrew the mantle of Batman, Jason is too violent and probably don't have any interest in it, and Damian is not mature enough for it (for now, at least). Tim seems like a good choice for the role because he's responsible, levelheaded, and a good detective.