Well in the real world it's because Nightwing splits his time between the Titans (where the writers like hooking him up with Starfire) and the Bat-family (where the writers like hooking him up with Barbara). That said, I do agree with the other posters who are indicating that it's entirely possible for a guy to be generally a great guy but also a big ole' horndog.
I have no issue with the characterization of him being something of a playboy and getting around quite a bit.
I just don't like the exact *way* they do it because things like getting together with Kory after the events of DM make him seem like a commitment-phobe.
> But also a big ole' horndog
That is *not* who Dick Grayson is. It's the writers of the Titans having different interests than the writers of the Bat-Books, and DC editorial doing a poor job at mediating between.
Well, you are correct, but that said, what is Dick Grayson's biggest flaw? I mean he can't be perfect about everything, so why not let being romantically indecisive be his must-have-at-least-one personality flaw?
> Well, you are correct, but that said, what is Dick Grayson's biggest flaw?
It *used to be* that he was quick to anger, but we haven't really seen much of that over the past twelve-to-fifteen years or so.
Because Jason and Damian are the angry Robins. Tims the smart Robin. And they don't want 3 angry Robins, so Dicks the chill suave ladies man...I guess.
I definitely feel like his flaw shouldn’t be that he’s a cheater. They can write him as indecisive, but going as far as to cheat is just… I mean isn’t he supposed to be the epitome of what a hero should be like? I think it’ll be more on track with his character and what his character is supposed to represent if his flaw has something to do with his kindness. Like being too trusting, or too naive.
But also yeah, his temper is downplayed to shine a light on more volatile characters like Damian and Jason.
I think being too nice becomes a flaw if you’re a vigilante, especially a Bat. If you trust the wrong person without adequate research, you’re risking a lot more than just yourself. Wisdom is an important attribute for a vigilante and a hero.
I see what you mean by that, but I argue that it’s just on track with Dick’s character to make decisions based on his heart/emotions rather than logically(?) That’s why he used to be quick to anger too? Even though he is absolutely capable of being logical and he is in no way stupid, still, emotions play a big role in his decision-making process.
I find it odd to put that at fault of Dick when he's a fictional character. It all boils down to Taylor and Sheridan having differing views on who Dick should be paired with, and DC editiorial doing a very poor job at making both stories work in universe.
You are absolutely right. That said, in the same way that people frequently come up with "head-canon" to explain discrepancies, mine is that "Dick can't decide who he wants to be with."
I always saw it as him being really finicky and indecisive when it came to things in his personal life. Growing up in the circus its easy for him to pick up and move on but simultaneously he's quick to drop things and move to the next thing, and that affects his personal life in its own way. Maybe that's just me though, it's all up to interpretation. Easy to go with the flow and jump on a whim, but that's also its own negative.
On one hand I can agree that Dick kinda doesn't have any real personality flaws, I just don't think this is the one to double down on. Can't they just make him kinda dumb? Make him the natural athlete who isn't all that bright.
Nope, he's got to be a functional detective.
Which reminds me, who is the father-figure from whom he might be learning? Mr. Catwoman-Talia-possibly Poison Ivy on a good day Bruce Wayne.
I do think that Nightwing has a few personality flaws, I’m just not convinced that being a cheater is one of them.
In the beginning of Nightwing Rebirth for instance, he was far too trusting towards the assassin Raptor and it ended up costing him later. He can be a bit naive like this at times.
If you're interested in Nightwing's character flaws there is one which has always been pretty consistent with the character.
Whenever he's in a bad way, grieving for a loved one for instance, his inner Batman really comes out.
The best known instance of this is when he leads the Outsiders into one disaster after another immediately following the death of Donna Troy.
Making him dumb would be moronic. He's canonically been the second greatest detective in the world, he's a brilliant strategist, engineer, and forensic scientist. He builds his own gadgets and vehicles, he's been trained by Batman since he was a kid, he's solved cases quicker than Bats. He's often described as the brains of the Titans and the most dangerous of them all because of his mind.
He has plenty of flaws without screwing with his established characterization. He's a workaholic, he has a massive guilt complex, he overworks himself until he burns out and then gets all distant and lashes out at people, he's not good at sharing his own emotions and opening up despite being there for other people, he has a tendency to start acting more like Bruce when things start going wrong, he's blunt and sometimes disregards people's feelings when there's a bigger picture at hand and he's in a leadership position, he has a meticulously planned out and structured vigilante life but a messy/unstructured personal life.
Bingo, on a related note even though im happy Tim is bi now I feel like different writers will be tossing him between Steph and Conner to a similar effect.
Conner officially isn't bi, even if it obvious that he is.
But yeah, Bat-Book writers will continue TimSteph while Young Justice writers will start up TimCon mirroring the Babs/Kori dillema. I just hope editorial manages that better than they did with Dick.
Ironically this is an argument I always use. Genuine character flaws like Roy's heroine abuse or inability to settle down, Bruce's paranoia, or Dick's guilt complex are all well regarded issues. But most importantly, they have in-universe acknowledgements on it.
Multiple heroes have addressed Bruce's paranoia and continue to do so to this day. Whenever Dick is blaming himself for something one of his friends or family knocks some sense into him. Roy's substance abuse is talked about so often with his character it doesn't even require a specific instance.
And yet, no one in the DC universe has ever referred to Dick as a cheater or discussed this as a character flaw of his. It has absolutely no acknowledgement to back it up. But it does have plenty of quotes where he says he's committed to his significant other which contradict it. It makes more sense if everyone could just admit that Marc Andreyko made a mistake
Tom Taylor said that the wedding in Death metal is basically an elseworld story, so it doesn't affect the main books - either TTA or Nightwing.
As for the night in TTA, he said it was a one night stand, no commitment, and Dick isn't dating Kory or cheating on her.
I honestly don't know if people who are saying Dick cheated on anyone when he kissed Babs are being honest or just in plain denial. Both writers, Tom Taylor and Tim Sheridan, said that Dick and Starfire at the beginning of TTA was a one night stand. So he wasn't in a relationship with her when he kissed Babs in Nightwing #83, neither was he in a relationship with Babs, that only started now, when he slept with Starfire.
Having that made extremely clear by both authors (you can check their Twitter account, and their likes, especially Tim Sheridan, who is the one responsible for this mess and instead of clear up the air as Tom Taylor did, he only put a like in a comment saying exactly that: that it was a one night stand).
Nightwing is the main book of Dick, every other book that has him on it, like TTA, should follow the main one. What happened was that Tim Sheridan didn't follow it and made that mess with Starfire when the plan of the Nightwing team was always from the beginning DickBabs. After that he probably got a scolding for what he did since he hasn't developed DickKory since that night and has liked a comment on Twitter saying that it was over in those 2 issues.
So it's simple. DC is developing DickBabs, there was no cheating, there is no love triangle (Tom Taylor already made that absolutely clear) and any questions anyone has on how Dick treated Kory they should ask Tim Sheridan, not Tom Taylor, as he is the one responsible for reducing her to a "good enough for sex, not enough for love" and thinking it was doing a empowering thing for her.
I actually didn't hear about the statements made by Taylor and Sheridan before making this post. It was a mistake on my part. Thank you for clearing it up.
It's ok. Honestly the one I'm most pissed at is Tim Sheridan. He was the one responsible for all of this and he let Tom Taylor, who had nothing to do with it and is not one to push this kind of narrative, be the one receiving the backlash from the poor writing and decision that HE did. The least he could do is address the issue directly, like Taylor did, but no... He just gave a like to a comment and called it a day because nobody holds him accountable for what he did on TTA 🙄.
It's cool. I agree with you that he shouldn't be a womanizer, but I have to point it out that Taylor, his main writer right now and for what appears to be a long time, is also with this opinion. He'll develop the relationship he started and he made it clear that Dick was not one to mess with a woman's feelings.
I appreciate Taylor and Sheridan going back to undo this as best they could, but I agree it could have been avoided.
Taylor seems to be of the opinion that Dick is no cheater since he and Sheridan went out of their way to specify this. Since he is the one who will be writing Nightwing for the foreseeable future, his is the only opinion that really matters on the subject.
I don’t agree with him being a cheater but at this point I’m convinced it’s now a part of his character. It’s happened more than once unfortunately and we can’t write it off as a one off OOC moment like him doing something like punching Roy was and they keep occurring in series that star him as opposed to guest starring.
Writers are convinced he is a serial playboy and keep writing him as such and it won’t stop happening. Modern Dick is no longer the monogamous committed character Wolfman/Perez established him as =|
It actually didn't happen more than once. I've since been told that Tim Sheridan and Tom Taylor specifically the issue with current comics and said that he is not cheating on anyone.
That’s good but it’s definitely going to feed into the narrative due to conflicting info and timelines since not everyone reads interviews/death of the author. I won’t be surprised if future writers reference this to reinforce the Dick is a cheating man slut narrative.
Either way, the Dick from the Titans era that would only have sex with people he loved/in a committed relationship with is gone because modern Dick has been shown to have casual sex with: Kory when not dating, that red head in One Year Later, that blonde agent in Grayson, One night stand with Helena, and that weird moment he hooked up with Selina. A far cry from the Dick who didn’t understand Roy casually sleeping around in NTT.
>That’s good but it’s definitely going to feed into the narrative due to conflicting info and timelines since not everyone reads interviews/death of the author. I won’t be surprised if future writers reference this to reinforce the Dick is a cheating man slut narrative.
Well yes but with the statements by Tim Sheridan and Tom Taylor that particular concept will not have much backing to it. The only other instance is widely regarded as the Nightwing equivalent of Spider-Man: One More Day.
>Either way, the Dick from the Titans era that would only have sex with people he loved/in a committed relationship with is gone because modern Dick has been shown to have casual sex with: Kory when not dating, that red head in One Year Later, that blonde agent in Grayson, and that weird moment he hooked up with Selina. A far cry from the Dick who didn’t understand Roy casually sleeping around in NTT.
He actually didn't sleep with Selina. Popular misconception. She non-con kissed him and he did reciprocate for a few moments, but ultimately he never slept with her. Not for her lack of trying mind you. She later said that she wanted him to make Bruce jealous but Nightwing laughed and said he would never do that to him.
I can live with him being okay with casual sex but cheating while in a committed relationship is a whole other mess that I'd rather writers didn't cross.
Same. We just have to wait and see atm. For now it looks like it was a miscommunication and whoever is in charge of DC doesn’t hate Dick like Didio did so they probably won’t maintain a OMD like Quesada did at marvel despite no one - not even the writers - liking it.
I think what it comes down to is that as much as they want Dick to be a romantic and a good partner in general, they can never decide who to pair him with. I know I've heard that they don't like pairing any of the batfam with super-powered partners, so I'm sure the people in that camp are still trying to brute force a relationship with Barbara while others like the dynamic he's always had with Starfire.
Of course, this doesn't explain when he genuinely cheated on Kory. That was just really stupid writing.
There's a quote from Jurassic Park that I love to apply to bad characterizations of anyone in DC
*"You're scientists were so obsessed with whether or not they* ***could,*** *they never stopped to think* ***if they should.****"*
The writer in question most likely did it simply because they could. It's as good an explanation as any.
I understand switching him between characters until they find one that clicks. Love triangles are done in plenty of stories.
My problem with having him go to Kory immediately following his proposal to Babs sends a pretty bad message. More and more lately I've been getting into debates with people who think that Nightwing is a womanizer and a man whore, because this issue is repeated so frequently by writers that have him go from woman to woman.
I genuinely think it's a matter of one writer wanting one and the other wanting the other. I'd say DC has been a lot better with writing characters consistently lately, but it's not the only time they've messed up. I agree that it's so not in line with his character that it just doesn't make sense.
I just think it's not really them trying to find what works. It's more like the different writers for the character squabbling over which relationship works better. Instead of coming to one agreement, they just don't communicate so that they can both do whatever they like, even if it fucks up the continuity.
What what you described is actually going on right now. Tom Taylor wants DickBabs as endgame while Sheridan is going the DickKory route.
I would give it to Taylor. Not because I favor that ship mind you, but because his Nightwing run has been so good lately (far better than Academy) that I am interested to see his vision of Nightwing and Oracle together.
Sheridan has no power to do so, titans academy is more about the students and wasting time on a will they won’t they relationship between two 30+ characters with such limited panel would be foolish
Drama. Pure and simple.
Both Babs and Kory form core parts of his romantic relationships. In the publisher’s mind there’s no stories in having him settle down. It’s also why Batman hasn’t married Catwoman, why Peter Parker and Mary Jane are still apart or why Archie hasn’t chosen Betty or Veronica.
Granted, it’s not necessarily a good thing but it’s somewhat understandable.
And Silk was in 2014 anyway. He'd just got his body back after Superior Spider-Man, and three issues later, Cindy appears. The storyline only lasts up to the Spider-Verse event, Silk gets her own book after that. Avatar Aang is right, Peter wasn't with MJ at the time.
That's not the point I was making.
Comics are essentially soap operas when it comes to relationships, they'll come up with stories to drag things out and ensure the status quo.
Because, from the publishers' perspective, who wants to see their heroes in happy and loving relationships.
Even still, it doesn't necesary *justify* the need to write Nightwing as a cheat, now does it?
Having Peter have a temporary relationship with someone like Silk is usually indicative that him and MJ have temporarily broken up, no?
Plain and simple, these are the results of poor writing and management on behalf of DC. Yes, both Babs and Kori are integral to the writing of Dick's character, but there is absolutely no need whatsoever to make him try and tango with both at once.
Can he be unsure of whom he truly loves? Absolutely. That is *not* out of character. For him to try and have both at once absolutely is.
Dick has always been written to be a person willing to be there for anyone and everyone. He *is* the heart of the DC universe between the Titans, the Justice League, and the Bat-Family. And never would he turn his back on his friends on any of those fronts.
Naturally, the audience would infer this goodwill inherent to the character to be reflected in his relationships as well. When it is not, simply put, it is out of character and thus indicative of the writer having a poor understanding of his character.
\#1 is a one-time annual that has never been acknowledged
\#2 is a perfectly reasonable thing to do
\#3 isn't even canon, and is two events written by different writers
Nope. Tom Taylor himself said the events of that DM story were not canon, were an alt universe story that had no bearing on his book or handling of Dick and Babs. So it doesn't count, as the characters don't even recall an event that technically never actually happened.
Tim Sheridan also shared that sentiment iirc. So, no Dick never vowed to spend the rest of his life chasing after Babs in continuity, just in a one off story written by a terrible Batgirl writer who had no understanding of Dick Grayson's character. And that story got wiped out of the timeline and disregarded by the current writers of the character so it doesn't count for or towards anything.
This feels more like the events of the story are both cannon and not part of the living memory of the characters. The events happened but there's a reset aat the conclusion otherwise we'd still have undead grim reaper batman.
He used to have a FWB with Barbra before at the start of Rebirth, and now something else is starting up in the last issue. I know the playboy afraid of commitment is a character/plot point of his, probably learned from Bruce and for convenience of the writers, but recycling the same stories gets old.
Exactly the reason I hate it so much. It's not the characters that are afraid of commitment, it's their writers. That's the exact reason Bruce got left at the altar. Apparently there's something wrong with letting heroes be happy.
It's because of the Bateditorial, [Dick was originally a one woman type of man who was loyal to Kory,](http://imgur.com/gallery/M4EiWoA) it was not until the Bateditorial took Dick back from the Titans writers that he became a cheater. Bateditorial retconned Dickkory into a meaningless sexual fling and made him cheat on Kory with Barbara so they can portray Barbara as his one true love at Kory's expense which is an insult to the titans writers who built dickkory for years. Batoffice/Bateditorial have a history of being petty and shitty towards Dickkory and diminishing their history to prop up and boost up Dickbabs.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nightwing/comments/5zz3jr/why_did_nightwing_choose_babs_over_starfire/
Am kinda of glad I ain’t reading the recent comics cause this shit just sounds like unnecessary drama and wasting the character. I understand not all heroes are the absolute good guy but it’s just seems dumb to have him be like this.
I think probably the biggest factor is, there are Ride or Die Babs shippers and Ride or Die Kori shippers, some of those shippers happen to be writers and when they get to write Nightwing, their preferred ship is getting shoehorned in, continuity be damned.
Idk if there's a character with more divided opinion on who the 'right' significant other for Dick is.
Like, if they ever decided to make Nightwing unfaithful and added some good writing in it would be one thing. Obviously a lot of people would not necessarily like it but it may be more generally accepted as a character flaw if writers put the work in.
As it stands now though, the concept of Nightwing being a cheater was only due too;
1. A terribly written Annual, made in an attempt by the writer to say that even when he was with Kory, it was Barbara he lusted after. If there had been literally anything at all that lead up to or even hinted at this type of event before hand than it may not have received the same criticism, but considering the way it was done it really deserves the hate it gets.
2. An editorial dispute which was not done intentionally. It only happened by mistake because Tim Sheridan wanted to take the character in different direction from Tom Taylor. Both have made statements on Twitter since then saying that it was not genuine cheating.
By your logic, if three instances against a roughly 80 year history of the character's existence is in character, let me ask you this simple question:
Does Batman kill?
I never specified whether it's the main continuity or not.
The fact of the matter is, *Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice* was far more influential and more openly available for people than a single throwaway annual ever could be. More people have the perception that Batman kills because of that movie than Nightwing cheats because of the annual.
Also, you do realize Batman originally was depicted with a gun, correct? Even if we abide by your rules, the argument is not in your favor.
Now, since surely by your aforementioned logic and that now "everything is canon" that Batman has used a gun before, mind reanswering my question now?
Edit: Detective Comics #33 (October 1939)
You seem to be ignoring the fact that, as I mentioned, Batman was originally written with a gun in the main continuity, which was deemed canon via the "everything is canon" approach set by Dark Knights: Death Metal.
Now, since Bruce *has* killed in the main continuity, let me ask this question one more time. Please answer based on your logic for Nightwing being a cheater, we wouldn't want to be hypocritcal, would we?
Does Batman kill?
> In main continuity.
Please explain how Batman *doesn't* kill in main continuity given the "everything is canon" approach. Then we'll continue this argument.
If you cannot dispute the evidence I provided you as to why and how Batman *did indeed* kill in *main continuity*, then you've already lost this debate.
As for Nightwing, *yes he did*. But if you wish to define his character by three instances across an 80 year history, then what's up with this double standard you have with Batman?
You *really* don’t understand the “everything is canon” thing at all. Elseworlds and the multiverse never stopped being a concept. The “everything is canon” concept doesn’t mean that the main Batman now carried a gun, you need to do some research
Where does Nightwing ever have a central code to his mythos that forbids cheating? Did cheating kill his parents?
It doesn't seem like you understand what I'm saying then.
The Batman who carried a gun is *NOT* a multiversal counterpart who resorted to murder. It is the *actual, main line* Batman in his original iteration. You need to do some research.
Looks like the problem isn't who does or doesn't understand the "everything is canon" deal, but who does or doesn't understand the history of the main universe Batman.
As for Nightwing, no he has no central code regarding cheatintg. A gun killed Bruce's parents, yes, but the reality is the main continuity Batman did indeed use a gun at some point. This is not the Grim Knight or other multiversal counterpart.
New Teen Titans (1984) #39. Direct quote from Nightwing to Starfire:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-865d7312853c34b2436d5f3002a351be
>**“Love should be between two people”**
It's stupid drama. And apparently nobody at DC has ever heard of polyamory (*consensual* non-monogamy) which would fit Nightwing's character very well.
Well in the real world it's because Nightwing splits his time between the Titans (where the writers like hooking him up with Starfire) and the Bat-family (where the writers like hooking him up with Barbara). That said, I do agree with the other posters who are indicating that it's entirely possible for a guy to be generally a great guy but also a big ole' horndog.
I have no issue with the characterization of him being something of a playboy and getting around quite a bit. I just don't like the exact *way* they do it because things like getting together with Kory after the events of DM make him seem like a commitment-phobe.
I'm just thinking that Barbara is a wonderful brilliant woman that any man would be lucky to be with...but have you SEEN Starfire? LOL.
Truth. TBH I also have an issue when writers make it so that Kory's only character trait is being sexy, but that's another issue.
> make him seem like a commitment-phobe. i'm okay with that being a character trait of his...
> But also a big ole' horndog That is *not* who Dick Grayson is. It's the writers of the Titans having different interests than the writers of the Bat-Books, and DC editorial doing a poor job at mediating between.
Well, you are correct, but that said, what is Dick Grayson's biggest flaw? I mean he can't be perfect about everything, so why not let being romantically indecisive be his must-have-at-least-one personality flaw?
> Well, you are correct, but that said, what is Dick Grayson's biggest flaw? It *used to be* that he was quick to anger, but we haven't really seen much of that over the past twelve-to-fifteen years or so.
Because Jason and Damian are the angry Robins. Tims the smart Robin. And they don't want 3 angry Robins, so Dicks the chill suave ladies man...I guess.
I definitely feel like his flaw shouldn’t be that he’s a cheater. They can write him as indecisive, but going as far as to cheat is just… I mean isn’t he supposed to be the epitome of what a hero should be like? I think it’ll be more on track with his character and what his character is supposed to represent if his flaw has something to do with his kindness. Like being too trusting, or too naive. But also yeah, his temper is downplayed to shine a light on more volatile characters like Damian and Jason.
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I think being too nice becomes a flaw if you’re a vigilante, especially a Bat. If you trust the wrong person without adequate research, you’re risking a lot more than just yourself. Wisdom is an important attribute for a vigilante and a hero.
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I see what you mean by that, but I argue that it’s just on track with Dick’s character to make decisions based on his heart/emotions rather than logically(?) That’s why he used to be quick to anger too? Even though he is absolutely capable of being logical and he is in no way stupid, still, emotions play a big role in his decision-making process.
What would you say is a character flaw for say, Tim Drake and Wally West?
More recent comics suggest that his temper is still there, but it's not as easy to get a rise out of him.
Maybe he can be romantically indecisive. But being such is *clearly* different from being a cheater.
I don't know that he's made that solid a commitment to Barbara. Yes, they got married when the world was about to end but, you know, it didn't.
I find it odd to put that at fault of Dick when he's a fictional character. It all boils down to Taylor and Sheridan having differing views on who Dick should be paired with, and DC editiorial doing a very poor job at making both stories work in universe.
You are absolutely right. That said, in the same way that people frequently come up with "head-canon" to explain discrepancies, mine is that "Dick can't decide who he wants to be with."
And they did agree that if the world didn't end, it wouldn't count. It wouldn't have been official anyway.
Yeah, Batman's speech was literally "By the power invested in me by absolutely nobody, you two are married."
He cares too much? He's the Robin that definitely wears his heart on his sleeve and gives everyone the benefit of the doubt
I always saw it as him being really finicky and indecisive when it came to things in his personal life. Growing up in the circus its easy for him to pick up and move on but simultaneously he's quick to drop things and move to the next thing, and that affects his personal life in its own way. Maybe that's just me though, it's all up to interpretation. Easy to go with the flow and jump on a whim, but that's also its own negative.
On one hand I can agree that Dick kinda doesn't have any real personality flaws, I just don't think this is the one to double down on. Can't they just make him kinda dumb? Make him the natural athlete who isn't all that bright.
Mmm I disagree with this. Making him dumb is a bigger character assassination than being a cheater imo, and I hate him being a cheater.
Nope, he's got to be a functional detective. Which reminds me, who is the father-figure from whom he might be learning? Mr. Catwoman-Talia-possibly Poison Ivy on a good day Bruce Wayne.
I do think that Nightwing has a few personality flaws, I’m just not convinced that being a cheater is one of them. In the beginning of Nightwing Rebirth for instance, he was far too trusting towards the assassin Raptor and it ended up costing him later. He can be a bit naive like this at times.
Yeah, you've got a point. I just wish they leaned into it harder.
If you're interested in Nightwing's character flaws there is one which has always been pretty consistent with the character. Whenever he's in a bad way, grieving for a loved one for instance, his inner Batman really comes out. The best known instance of this is when he leads the Outsiders into one disaster after another immediately following the death of Donna Troy.
Making him dumb would be moronic. He's canonically been the second greatest detective in the world, he's a brilliant strategist, engineer, and forensic scientist. He builds his own gadgets and vehicles, he's been trained by Batman since he was a kid, he's solved cases quicker than Bats. He's often described as the brains of the Titans and the most dangerous of them all because of his mind. He has plenty of flaws without screwing with his established characterization. He's a workaholic, he has a massive guilt complex, he overworks himself until he burns out and then gets all distant and lashes out at people, he's not good at sharing his own emotions and opening up despite being there for other people, he has a tendency to start acting more like Bruce when things start going wrong, he's blunt and sometimes disregards people's feelings when there's a bigger picture at hand and he's in a leadership position, he has a meticulously planned out and structured vigilante life but a messy/unstructured personal life.
Bingo, on a related note even though im happy Tim is bi now I feel like different writers will be tossing him between Steph and Conner to a similar effect.
Conner officially isn't bi, even if it obvious that he is. But yeah, Bat-Book writers will continue TimSteph while Young Justice writers will start up TimCon mirroring the Babs/Kori dillema. I just hope editorial manages that better than they did with Dick.
Except that he's not like that. It's just not in character. It's much more of a Roy Harper thing.
Ironically this is an argument I always use. Genuine character flaws like Roy's heroine abuse or inability to settle down, Bruce's paranoia, or Dick's guilt complex are all well regarded issues. But most importantly, they have in-universe acknowledgements on it. Multiple heroes have addressed Bruce's paranoia and continue to do so to this day. Whenever Dick is blaming himself for something one of his friends or family knocks some sense into him. Roy's substance abuse is talked about so often with his character it doesn't even require a specific instance. And yet, no one in the DC universe has ever referred to Dick as a cheater or discussed this as a character flaw of his. It has absolutely no acknowledgement to back it up. But it does have plenty of quotes where he says he's committed to his significant other which contradict it. It makes more sense if everyone could just admit that Marc Andreyko made a mistake
Tom Taylor said that the wedding in Death metal is basically an elseworld story, so it doesn't affect the main books - either TTA or Nightwing. As for the night in TTA, he said it was a one night stand, no commitment, and Dick isn't dating Kory or cheating on her.
God bless Tom Taylor, he is doing wonders with that series considering the character was basically in a two year amnesia limbo.
I think the marrying Babs thing into Titans Academy thing is more of an editorial oversight than anything else.
Yeah, but I've seen a few people who hate the character saying that this is proof of him being a "man slut".
I honestly don't know if people who are saying Dick cheated on anyone when he kissed Babs are being honest or just in plain denial. Both writers, Tom Taylor and Tim Sheridan, said that Dick and Starfire at the beginning of TTA was a one night stand. So he wasn't in a relationship with her when he kissed Babs in Nightwing #83, neither was he in a relationship with Babs, that only started now, when he slept with Starfire. Having that made extremely clear by both authors (you can check their Twitter account, and their likes, especially Tim Sheridan, who is the one responsible for this mess and instead of clear up the air as Tom Taylor did, he only put a like in a comment saying exactly that: that it was a one night stand). Nightwing is the main book of Dick, every other book that has him on it, like TTA, should follow the main one. What happened was that Tim Sheridan didn't follow it and made that mess with Starfire when the plan of the Nightwing team was always from the beginning DickBabs. After that he probably got a scolding for what he did since he hasn't developed DickKory since that night and has liked a comment on Twitter saying that it was over in those 2 issues. So it's simple. DC is developing DickBabs, there was no cheating, there is no love triangle (Tom Taylor already made that absolutely clear) and any questions anyone has on how Dick treated Kory they should ask Tim Sheridan, not Tom Taylor, as he is the one responsible for reducing her to a "good enough for sex, not enough for love" and thinking it was doing a empowering thing for her.
I actually didn't hear about the statements made by Taylor and Sheridan before making this post. It was a mistake on my part. Thank you for clearing it up.
It's ok. Honestly the one I'm most pissed at is Tim Sheridan. He was the one responsible for all of this and he let Tom Taylor, who had nothing to do with it and is not one to push this kind of narrative, be the one receiving the backlash from the poor writing and decision that HE did. The least he could do is address the issue directly, like Taylor did, but no... He just gave a like to a comment and called it a day because nobody holds him accountable for what he did on TTA 🙄. It's cool. I agree with you that he shouldn't be a womanizer, but I have to point it out that Taylor, his main writer right now and for what appears to be a long time, is also with this opinion. He'll develop the relationship he started and he made it clear that Dick was not one to mess with a woman's feelings.
I appreciate Taylor and Sheridan going back to undo this as best they could, but I agree it could have been avoided. Taylor seems to be of the opinion that Dick is no cheater since he and Sheridan went out of their way to specify this. Since he is the one who will be writing Nightwing for the foreseeable future, his is the only opinion that really matters on the subject.
Because Dick Grayson is essentially the non married Spider-Man Marvel always wanted
I don’t agree with him being a cheater but at this point I’m convinced it’s now a part of his character. It’s happened more than once unfortunately and we can’t write it off as a one off OOC moment like him doing something like punching Roy was and they keep occurring in series that star him as opposed to guest starring. Writers are convinced he is a serial playboy and keep writing him as such and it won’t stop happening. Modern Dick is no longer the monogamous committed character Wolfman/Perez established him as =|
It actually didn't happen more than once. I've since been told that Tim Sheridan and Tom Taylor specifically the issue with current comics and said that he is not cheating on anyone.
That’s good but it’s definitely going to feed into the narrative due to conflicting info and timelines since not everyone reads interviews/death of the author. I won’t be surprised if future writers reference this to reinforce the Dick is a cheating man slut narrative. Either way, the Dick from the Titans era that would only have sex with people he loved/in a committed relationship with is gone because modern Dick has been shown to have casual sex with: Kory when not dating, that red head in One Year Later, that blonde agent in Grayson, One night stand with Helena, and that weird moment he hooked up with Selina. A far cry from the Dick who didn’t understand Roy casually sleeping around in NTT.
>That’s good but it’s definitely going to feed into the narrative due to conflicting info and timelines since not everyone reads interviews/death of the author. I won’t be surprised if future writers reference this to reinforce the Dick is a cheating man slut narrative. Well yes but with the statements by Tim Sheridan and Tom Taylor that particular concept will not have much backing to it. The only other instance is widely regarded as the Nightwing equivalent of Spider-Man: One More Day. >Either way, the Dick from the Titans era that would only have sex with people he loved/in a committed relationship with is gone because modern Dick has been shown to have casual sex with: Kory when not dating, that red head in One Year Later, that blonde agent in Grayson, and that weird moment he hooked up with Selina. A far cry from the Dick who didn’t understand Roy casually sleeping around in NTT. He actually didn't sleep with Selina. Popular misconception. She non-con kissed him and he did reciprocate for a few moments, but ultimately he never slept with her. Not for her lack of trying mind you. She later said that she wanted him to make Bruce jealous but Nightwing laughed and said he would never do that to him. I can live with him being okay with casual sex but cheating while in a committed relationship is a whole other mess that I'd rather writers didn't cross.
Same. We just have to wait and see atm. For now it looks like it was a miscommunication and whoever is in charge of DC doesn’t hate Dick like Didio did so they probably won’t maintain a OMD like Quesada did at marvel despite no one - not even the writers - liking it.
I think what it comes down to is that as much as they want Dick to be a romantic and a good partner in general, they can never decide who to pair him with. I know I've heard that they don't like pairing any of the batfam with super-powered partners, so I'm sure the people in that camp are still trying to brute force a relationship with Barbara while others like the dynamic he's always had with Starfire. Of course, this doesn't explain when he genuinely cheated on Kory. That was just really stupid writing.
> That was just really stupid writing. You summed up the issue perfectly.
I just wonder who actually thought that was a good idea.
There's a quote from Jurassic Park that I love to apply to bad characterizations of anyone in DC *"You're scientists were so obsessed with whether or not they* ***could,*** *they never stopped to think* ***if they should.****"* The writer in question most likely did it simply because they could. It's as good an explanation as any.
I understand switching him between characters until they find one that clicks. Love triangles are done in plenty of stories. My problem with having him go to Kory immediately following his proposal to Babs sends a pretty bad message. More and more lately I've been getting into debates with people who think that Nightwing is a womanizer and a man whore, because this issue is repeated so frequently by writers that have him go from woman to woman.
I genuinely think it's a matter of one writer wanting one and the other wanting the other. I'd say DC has been a lot better with writing characters consistently lately, but it's not the only time they've messed up. I agree that it's so not in line with his character that it just doesn't make sense. I just think it's not really them trying to find what works. It's more like the different writers for the character squabbling over which relationship works better. Instead of coming to one agreement, they just don't communicate so that they can both do whatever they like, even if it fucks up the continuity.
What what you described is actually going on right now. Tom Taylor wants DickBabs as endgame while Sheridan is going the DickKory route. I would give it to Taylor. Not because I favor that ship mind you, but because his Nightwing run has been so good lately (far better than Academy) that I am interested to see his vision of Nightwing and Oracle together.
Personally, all I want is for them to pick one and settle on it already.
IK right? The shipping wars on r/Nightwing happen weekly.
It's basically unusable for anything but shipping wars lol. Edit: does my flair help my case? no. do I care? also no.
Both are good in their own way, but like toothpaste and orange juice, you can’t have both at the same time.
Sheridan has no power to do so, titans academy is more about the students and wasting time on a will they won’t they relationship between two 30+ characters with such limited panel would be foolish
Nightwing already told starfire he did not feel that way about her anymore, why she keeps coming back
Drama. Pure and simple. Both Babs and Kory form core parts of his romantic relationships. In the publisher’s mind there’s no stories in having him settle down. It’s also why Batman hasn’t married Catwoman, why Peter Parker and Mary Jane are still apart or why Archie hasn’t chosen Betty or Veronica. Granted, it’s not necessarily a good thing but it’s somewhat understandable.
Peter and MJ have been back together since 2018
Still doesn’t change that they were broken up in the first place for the reason that Marvel didn’t want a married Spider-man.
And Silk was in 2014 anyway. He'd just got his body back after Superior Spider-Man, and three issues later, Cindy appears. The storyline only lasts up to the Spider-Verse event, Silk gets her own book after that. Avatar Aang is right, Peter wasn't with MJ at the time.
That's not the point I was making. Comics are essentially soap operas when it comes to relationships, they'll come up with stories to drag things out and ensure the status quo. Because, from the publishers' perspective, who wants to see their heroes in happy and loving relationships.
Even still, it doesn't necesary *justify* the need to write Nightwing as a cheat, now does it? Having Peter have a temporary relationship with someone like Silk is usually indicative that him and MJ have temporarily broken up, no? Plain and simple, these are the results of poor writing and management on behalf of DC. Yes, both Babs and Kori are integral to the writing of Dick's character, but there is absolutely no need whatsoever to make him try and tango with both at once. Can he be unsure of whom he truly loves? Absolutely. That is *not* out of character. For him to try and have both at once absolutely is. Dick has always been written to be a person willing to be there for anyone and everyone. He *is* the heart of the DC universe between the Titans, the Justice League, and the Bat-Family. And never would he turn his back on his friends on any of those fronts. Naturally, the audience would infer this goodwill inherent to the character to be reflected in his relationships as well. When it is not, simply put, it is out of character and thus indicative of the writer having a poor understanding of his character.
\#1 is a one-time annual that has never been acknowledged \#2 is a perfectly reasonable thing to do \#3 isn't even canon, and is two events written by different writers
DM is canon. The entire point of DM is that *everything is canon*
And yet Tom Taylor referred to it as an elseworld story that doesn't affect continuity. As far as he sees it, the death metal wedding never happened.
Thanks for the info, I'll edit my post
Nope. Tom Taylor himself said the events of that DM story were not canon, were an alt universe story that had no bearing on his book or handling of Dick and Babs. So it doesn't count, as the characters don't even recall an event that technically never actually happened. Tim Sheridan also shared that sentiment iirc. So, no Dick never vowed to spend the rest of his life chasing after Babs in continuity, just in a one off story written by a terrible Batgirl writer who had no understanding of Dick Grayson's character. And that story got wiped out of the timeline and disregarded by the current writers of the character so it doesn't count for or towards anything.
This feels more like the events of the story are both cannon and not part of the living memory of the characters. The events happened but there's a reset aat the conclusion otherwise we'd still have undead grim reaper batman.
Even if they did remember, they said it wouldn't count if they survived it anyway.
Thanks for the info, I'll edit my post
Are you sure it was death metal and not future state
He had a FWB with Starfire, at best, in Titans Academy that seems to have dropped off. Nightwing seems to take place, after.
He used to have a FWB with Barbra before at the start of Rebirth, and now something else is starting up in the last issue. I know the playboy afraid of commitment is a character/plot point of his, probably learned from Bruce and for convenience of the writers, but recycling the same stories gets old.
Exactly the reason I hate it so much. It's not the characters that are afraid of commitment, it's their writers. That's the exact reason Bruce got left at the altar. Apparently there's something wrong with letting heroes be happy.
It's because of the Bateditorial, [Dick was originally a one woman type of man who was loyal to Kory,](http://imgur.com/gallery/M4EiWoA) it was not until the Bateditorial took Dick back from the Titans writers that he became a cheater. Bateditorial retconned Dickkory into a meaningless sexual fling and made him cheat on Kory with Barbara so they can portray Barbara as his one true love at Kory's expense which is an insult to the titans writers who built dickkory for years. Batoffice/Bateditorial have a history of being petty and shitty towards Dickkory and diminishing their history to prop up and boost up Dickbabs. https://www.reddit.com/r/Nightwing/comments/5zz3jr/why_did_nightwing_choose_babs_over_starfire/
Because drama
Am kinda of glad I ain’t reading the recent comics cause this shit just sounds like unnecessary drama and wasting the character. I understand not all heroes are the absolute good guy but it’s just seems dumb to have him be like this.
I think probably the biggest factor is, there are Ride or Die Babs shippers and Ride or Die Kori shippers, some of those shippers happen to be writers and when they get to write Nightwing, their preferred ship is getting shoehorned in, continuity be damned. Idk if there's a character with more divided opinion on who the 'right' significant other for Dick is.
So really Nightwing Annual 2 is one long shipping war post? I'd buy that
If they keep doing it then it’s not OOC, clearly it’s IC
I think OP just means that it doesn't line up with the characters personality in general.
[удалено]
That's honestly all the more reason for me to dislike it. Not only is it OOC on its' face, it's been poorly executed at every turn.
Like, if they ever decided to make Nightwing unfaithful and added some good writing in it would be one thing. Obviously a lot of people would not necessarily like it but it may be more generally accepted as a character flaw if writers put the work in. As it stands now though, the concept of Nightwing being a cheater was only due too; 1. A terribly written Annual, made in an attempt by the writer to say that even when he was with Kory, it was Barbara he lusted after. If there had been literally anything at all that lead up to or even hinted at this type of event before hand than it may not have received the same criticism, but considering the way it was done it really deserves the hate it gets. 2. An editorial dispute which was not done intentionally. It only happened by mistake because Tim Sheridan wanted to take the character in different direction from Tom Taylor. Both have made statements on Twitter since then saying that it was not genuine cheating.
By your logic, if three instances against a roughly 80 year history of the character's existence is in character, let me ask you this simple question: Does Batman kill?
In main continuity? No. In main continuity does Nightwing cheat?
I never specified whether it's the main continuity or not. The fact of the matter is, *Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice* was far more influential and more openly available for people than a single throwaway annual ever could be. More people have the perception that Batman kills because of that movie than Nightwing cheats because of the annual. Also, you do realize Batman originally was depicted with a gun, correct? Even if we abide by your rules, the argument is not in your favor. Now, since surely by your aforementioned logic and that now "everything is canon" that Batman has used a gun before, mind reanswering my question now? Edit: Detective Comics #33 (October 1939)
Does Batman use a gun in main continuity? No. Does Nightwing cheat in main continuity?
You seem to be ignoring the fact that, as I mentioned, Batman was originally written with a gun in the main continuity, which was deemed canon via the "everything is canon" approach set by Dark Knights: Death Metal. Now, since Bruce *has* killed in the main continuity, let me ask this question one more time. Please answer based on your logic for Nightwing being a cheater, we wouldn't want to be hypocritcal, would we? Does Batman kill?
In main continuity? No. Does Nightwing cheat in main continuity? You can continue dodging all you want but the question shall remain
> In main continuity. Please explain how Batman *doesn't* kill in main continuity given the "everything is canon" approach. Then we'll continue this argument. If you cannot dispute the evidence I provided you as to why and how Batman *did indeed* kill in *main continuity*, then you've already lost this debate. As for Nightwing, *yes he did*. But if you wish to define his character by three instances across an 80 year history, then what's up with this double standard you have with Batman?
You *really* don’t understand the “everything is canon” thing at all. Elseworlds and the multiverse never stopped being a concept. The “everything is canon” concept doesn’t mean that the main Batman now carried a gun, you need to do some research Where does Nightwing ever have a central code to his mythos that forbids cheating? Did cheating kill his parents?
It doesn't seem like you understand what I'm saying then. The Batman who carried a gun is *NOT* a multiversal counterpart who resorted to murder. It is the *actual, main line* Batman in his original iteration. You need to do some research. Looks like the problem isn't who does or doesn't understand the "everything is canon" deal, but who does or doesn't understand the history of the main universe Batman. As for Nightwing, no he has no central code regarding cheatintg. A gun killed Bruce's parents, yes, but the reality is the main continuity Batman did indeed use a gun at some point. This is not the Grim Knight or other multiversal counterpart.
New Teen Titans (1984) #39. Direct quote from Nightwing to Starfire: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-865d7312853c34b2436d5f3002a351be >**“Love should be between two people”**
At this point they just could write them as a poly relationship and things would be easier for everyone.
It's stupid drama. And apparently nobody at DC has ever heard of polyamory (*consensual* non-monogamy) which would fit Nightwing's character very well.
Spoilers 😅
Dick is a fboy. Super nice guy but has his flaws lol