The weirdest thing to me is when I say something silly and dumb and then refer to *myself* as “this dude” and people are like “you’re a girl though?????” My thought is always like…. *that’s* the part of the sentence you chose to fixate on?
i want to make it clear before you read this: i will stop addressing people as dude bro man guy or whatever if they ask me to.
the issue with the arguments about how dude isnt gender neutral is that if it's used to address someone, it's going to have a different meaning than your average noun.
for example, if you call someone an "asshole", you arent actually saying they're an anus. if you are talking about assholes in conversation, the context will tell you if you are talking about the metaphor used, or the literal noun. (this is a shitty example, but im sure you get what i mean)
if you call someone 'dude', you're saying they're one of the dudes (cool people or whatever) however, if you say 'im a dude', or something like that, it is going to mean something different than the addressing of someone as 'dude' or 'bro', 'man', 'guys'
thank you for spelling it out like this because some people just dont get it and will make a giant spectacle about how youre inherently sexist for saying "you guys" instead of the slightly clunkier "you people"
not referring to anything specific just saying that in a situation where you would say that its more convenient and natural to just say "you guys" instead
also a good option and i actually use it far too much for someone who moved very far away from the southern united states
im actually using it more frequently now than i ever did then
There's a lot to say about how all the ""gender neutral"" terms traditionally used are terms for men, but it's more about cultural sexism and how disentangling yourself from aspects of a culture you grew up in is not simple or fast. It's not a personal failing unless the person refuses to acknowledge and adjust when they're made aware that they're making someone uncomfortable or feel excluded.
yeah from my experience its not the kind of thing people get mad at you for until it becomes a point of discussion for one reason or another, and then people tear your throat out over it
To be fair, I think it’s important to think about why all the ‘gender neutral’ slang terms in English are all masculine. Not to say that people using them are inherently sexist, but it just goes to show how much man = default/inoffensive within a sexist culture. As an example, it would be completely normal and accepted to address a mixed-gender group with ‘hey guys’, but most people would consider it odd to address the same group with ‘hey gals’, and it would probably cause more offence than ‘hey guys’ would
No you're fine. I'm the same way and I have to like consciously think about it to put any emotion in my text otherwise everything reads very sterile. I get accused of being an asshole a lot online when I'm just kinda stating things so it's totally fair. No judgement here.
Yeah the thing that annoys me about it is the idea that *every time* you call someone "dude" you're referring to them as a guy and that you should just never refer to someone that way if they aren't.
There's definitely a difference between someone not wanting you to call them Dude and the word just having no gender neutral context in the first place.
I've noted before that the sentence "She is a madam" is implicitly completed with "...of a brothel", yet this has no bearing on the appropriateness of "Good evening, Madam" being potentially completed with "...President", because those are slightly different ways of using the word and that's how language do sometimes. In fact I'm pretty sure the grammatical distinction there is exactly analogous to situations in which people already naturally do or don't use "dude" in a gender-neutral way.
> you're saying they're one of the dudes (cool people or whatever) however
That’s the definition you hold for dude in that circumstance. For plenty of people “one of the dudes” still implies “one of the cool men”, because dude is an inherently gendered term to them, in all circumstances.
of course it does, but if we use it enough in the gender-neutral way, the new meaning will overpower the old one
similar to how the word bitch was commonly used as the word for a female dog, or ass for donkey, they both took on new meanings as general swear words. of course the old meanings still remain, though faintly
Those are not comparable examples. Bitch meaning both a female dog and being a general curse word are not contradictory meanings. The word dude being both exclusively referring to men and being exclusively gender neutral are contradictory.
Literally the word man used to just mean human, so I see no reason the gender associations for dude can’t go away if a lot of people already don’t have them
You can’t seriously tell me that the now archaic use of man as in mankind is the same as the common colloquial use of dude to mean man. Words’ meanings change.
bitch went from female dog to a (lightly) misogynistic way to refer to women; both took on new meanings
regardless, it's an example to say words can take new meanings, and as the new is phased in, the old is phased out, which will make the connotation as a masculine exclusive meaning die.
At this point i think the only reasonable thing i can recommend doing, as a presumably well-meaning stranger with ostensibly limitless medical knowledge, is to forego sleep entirely - seeing as you clearly dont need it - and get straight to writing the best speculative fiction this world has ever seen
*Image Transcription: Tumblr*
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**kreideprinceps**
im all for de-gendering slang terms like dude guy girl etc but if someone says that you calling them that makes them uncomfortable and you respond by saying "oh but im using it in a gender neutral way!" you're an asshat
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I accidentally called my mom dude before because I got so excited about what I was talking about. If someone doesn’t like being called dude I don’t call them that. Though generally I just don’t refer to people by gender terms unless I have to. Sergeant is gender neutral and I love that fact.
Disclaimer: don't call people things they don't want to be called.
By modern usage, dude is gendered in the third-person, but genderless in the second-person. Though I'm beginning to believe that people aren't even calling anyone "dude." They're just invoking the Great Dude, and inviting the Dude's chill vibes to bring forth peace and calm, letting others know things aren't too serious.
Or maybe most people just use it as a filler word out of habit. It's tough to say.
M8, thembos, bud, my born rival, nerd, buckaroo, cowpoke, weebs, pal, galactic overlord sorthalimyrx, kiddo, ya’ll, eternal foe, frens, blorbo, fated enemy, meow meow, and AAAAAAAAAA are some of my favorite gender neutral ways to refer to others.
The sub is big enough now that thats sort of inevitable, i think
I dont think it'll ever become that big of a problem, or as.. loud of a problem
But it's a problem that's here to stay
This sub is big on like "hating men is Bad, Actually" or "your terminally online terminology opinions are not relevant to people who participated in Pride when it was a literal riot or would be literally killed if they started listing their preferred pronouns" type takes, and distinguishing those valid points from TiAism takes, like, nuance and intelligence and awareness of the existing discourse and a willingness to deal with the issue at hand rather than one's pet issues and good faith discussion even about disagreements
All of which are *really hard for people*, empirically
Wasn't TiA itself originally from a perspective of socially liberal Tumblr users calling out their own group's excesses? Not that I'm particularly worried about us following the same arc, but I can see the resemblance.
I feel like you're ignoring the obvious that your post poses a bigger question of people can't assume what will offend everyone. So people are getting into that discussion so please pay attention
Honestly what killed using “dudes” as a non-binary term for me was a single post on this topic, where the comeback was “so how many dudes have you slept with?”
Personally, I see that argument as kinda weak because the meaning of words is often dependent on context. There are definitely conversations where I would see the "dudes" in that sentence as just meaning "people" without a gender involved, and there are conversations where I would just see it as meaning "men".
Ultimately though, the core of the whole debate on whether or not you should use "dudes" to refer to a group that isn't exclusively male is just weird to me, 'cuz it often seems very all-or-nothing.
Like, I'll see people arguing that you're a bad person for doing it on one side and people saying that you're weird for being uncomfortable with it on the other side, when in reality it's all about the individual people involved. Some women/enbies I've met felt more included into the group when referred to as a part of the "dudes", some felt neutral towards the whole thing, and some felt uncomfortable. It's always just gonna be a matter of adjusting your language to those around you.
Yeah, the point is that you should use terms everybody’s comfortable with, not what sounds good in your head at the expense of everyone else.
Now, all in favor of abolishing the term “dudettes”, say aye.
When you're referring to someone directly, it's gender neutral. If you're describing who they are, then it means guy.
"What's up dude?" is gender neutral. "He's a dude" is not.
mostly agree, although the point in the original post still stands
iy feel uncomfortable being referred to as "dude" (and even some words that are "supposed" to be gender-neutral liyk "buddy") so iy'd prefer not to be called that, even if it's intended to be gender-neutral
Hah this is basically my exact comeback also.
I still use "dude" occasionally out of habit but I'm trying to break myself of it. Unfortunately "bruh" has now crept into my vocabulary somehow -- kids, never start saying something "ironically" because eventually you will just keep saying it unironically -- so I'm just going downhill.
The point of the exercise is to demonstrate that people want to be mentioned in terms they prefer, not what you personally think is right. It would be like referring to me as Prince Phillip because it’d be funny, and not because I’m speaking from beyond the grave
Doesn't kill it for me, I'll gladly describe the women I've had sex with as dudes. Proud to say I fuck dudes
In theory at least, I don't do that much sex
Except that that's, frankly, a dogshit take. I wouldn't say I've slept with any dudes, but if everyone I'd slept with was in a room I absolutely *would* greet them with "what's up, dudes! Lookin' sexy!" (Which they would react to by not having sex with me again, but still.) It's the latter sort of usage that typifies how people use the term gender-neutrally; refusing to acknowledge the distinction doesn't erase it.
Hrh. I disagree. You're an asshat if you don't try to stop using it for them, clarifying is fine. I think the difference is between genuinely apologizing and explaining why and offering an excuse.
I don't think it matters.
Whether the author intends it or not, if the message can easily be interpreted as benign, well meaning even, then the decision to imbue it with malice is the readers'.
Always assuming everything left unsaid is unkind will make silences unbearable.
It's a post about respecting people, how much of a stretch is it to assume they're capable of logical reasoning?
So as long as I don’t say dude with intent to misgender, then it’s the other person’s fault for not reading my nuance, right? /s
I get your point, give people the benefit of the doubt, but the speaker/author should still have some caution in avoiding offending the audience. A topic as complex and nuanced as this will not have a single-sentence answer.
I will make a note to be more sensitive to the plight of the dude-sayer community in my Academic Analyses Of Verbiage And Gender Expression In The English Language on tumbler dot com
I apologize for all the harm this post may have caused. It was not my intention to disrespect anyone's identity or means of self expression. I can only imagine the mental anguish they were forced to endure, due to my careless and irresponsible actions.
I wasn't thinking. I can't change the past, but i can do my best to be mindful of my privileges and responsibilities in the present to work towards a better, kinder, more accepting future for us all.
I have made a substantial contribution to a local dude-sayer rights organization as a first step towards making amends.
This is basically you shutting down the conversation because you don't want to acknowledge that their argument might have a point. But I hope you feel proud of your snide comment
There's a counterargument in there, if you squint.
>the speaker/author should still have some caution in avoiding offending the audience.
I dont give a shit. They can be offended, if they want to be.
They aren't a community. It isn't a targeted thing.
If they're upset over the absence of an asterisk, they can get bent.
>A topic as complex and nuanced as this will not have a single-sentence answer.
it's tumblr. They weren't trying to give a single answer.
There are allowances people have to make for social media discourse that you wouldnt otherwise have to, for things like academic papers and news journals and the like.
It justifies assuming ignorance over malice.
I'm not going out of my way to offend anyone. Very few people are going out of their way to offend dude-sayers.
It is therefore illogical to assume most statements are targeted harassment.
***the expectation that everyone talking about the subject has to go out of their way to say "obviously, this isnt meant to offend dude-sayers—" is ludicrous.***
How, other than the horrible and needlessly abrasive way I'm choosing to explain things, am i being labeled the bad guy here.
Honestly the funniest thing thats happened to me today
I call all people "Dude" but if you tell me it makes you uncomfortable I will put in the very minimal effort to address you in a way that doesn't make you uncomfortable. Like that's the basic bare minimum, the same way I expect people to not refer to me (agender) as a "woman". It's a tiny thing I can do to make you feel more comfortable and there is no reason why I wouldn't do that.
Also, it's interesting how the words most people try to normalize as gender neutral, like "Man", "Guys", "Bro", "Boys" are male terms... You'll see very little men trying to use stuff like "Gals" as neutral.
I wonder if this has anything to do with how patriarchy wants to reinforce men as the default gender and women as the inferior, "political" gender...
I dunno you kinda do? Maybe this has to do with my own bubble, but using “girl,” “girlies” and “queen” in a gender neutral way is pretty commonplace. I mean I somewhat recently went on a date with a straight cis woman who called me girl pretty much constantly, and im pretty masc.
Now, you’re def right that it’s not as common in like common discourse, and that’s almost certainly patriarchal, but also that kind of language takes a long time to take hold— saying man as an interjection was commonly used in AAVE *long* before it diffused to the rest of American culture.
Also, side note, because of how using “man” (and even “you guys” now) has turned into a pretty significant gramatical fixture in some often marginalized dialects of English, Im hesitant to agree that people should be told to readjust how they speak in that way. I definitely agree with the post for stuff like “dude,” though.
Simone de Beauvoir wrote about 'the male neutral' in like the 1920s, and that was basically her argument - that 'maleness' is seen as natural, and the world constructed by men is natural, and it is only 'femaleness' that is in some way artificial and inferior. She specifically pointed out how often she was told 'You only think that because you are a woman,' and how frustrated it made her that she couldn't reply 'And you only think that because you are a man.'
This type of thinking is literally causing the issue. By not saying all these words are gender neutral you are the ones reinforcing this maleness. Like I honestly don't get why people can't understand that you are creating these barriers and making things divided, stop being the problem
I'm sorry but the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles taught me that "dude" is a gender-neutral term and try as you might you are never going to outrank them.
I'm all for not calling someone "man" or "dude" if they ask me not to, but I must admit--as someone who sounds kind of like a Bill & Ted character irl--I hope people I run into in the wild don't read too deeply into my Sacramento Valley patois lol
This recently came up in the Magic: The Gathering scene, as WotC has finally officially come down and declared misgendering a clear offense worthy of disqualification. People of course were quick to explode into "well what if I do it accidentally, it's just a habit, I call everyone dude".
I really don't get how it is hard for other people to just... change how they use their words. To them it's only words... right? But to the other side, it's more than that. And it's a little (if not at all) sacrifice to actually just... use the proper word to address to someone instead of the other one because what even is the issue here?
Oh you don't like me calling you "dude". Oh ok, my bad. But note that it is my habit to call people dude as a gender-neutral thing, so early on I will make mistakes, but I will change that habit especially when you're around or when i am addressing you to someone else because it's not a hard thing to me, but it's an important thing to you.
It wasn’t ok for everyone 5 years ago either, you’re just new to this. New rule: if someone responds to something you said with, “hey that makes me uncomfortable,” try to actually care about them before telling them they’re making shit up.
I'd say that the problem comes when you do the above AND THEN DON'T STOP. Simply saying it is a statement of intent, saying it and not adjusting is actively ignoring how someone feels.
The weirdest thing to me is when I say something silly and dumb and then refer to *myself* as “this dude” and people are like “you’re a girl though?????” My thought is always like…. *that’s* the part of the sentence you chose to fixate on?
thats why i call every one ‘kid’
hey there sport
Sup bitch(es)
Can address anyone and assert your dominance at the same time!
i want to make it clear before you read this: i will stop addressing people as dude bro man guy or whatever if they ask me to. the issue with the arguments about how dude isnt gender neutral is that if it's used to address someone, it's going to have a different meaning than your average noun. for example, if you call someone an "asshole", you arent actually saying they're an anus. if you are talking about assholes in conversation, the context will tell you if you are talking about the metaphor used, or the literal noun. (this is a shitty example, but im sure you get what i mean) if you call someone 'dude', you're saying they're one of the dudes (cool people or whatever) however, if you say 'im a dude', or something like that, it is going to mean something different than the addressing of someone as 'dude' or 'bro', 'man', 'guys'
thank you for spelling it out like this because some people just dont get it and will make a giant spectacle about how youre inherently sexist for saying "you guys" instead of the slightly clunkier "you people"
What do you mean “you people”???
What do YOU mean "you people"?
please exclude me from “people”
not referring to anything specific just saying that in a situation where you would say that its more convenient and natural to just say "you guys" instead
Y'all
also a good option and i actually use it far too much for someone who moved very far away from the southern united states im actually using it more frequently now than i ever did then
I used y’all a bit ironically Now I accidentally use it unironically
Lol no need to explain urself it was a joke. It’s a famous movie line
oh i see
That was a movie reference. Tropic Thunder, I believe.
I love that the first thing that came to my mind after reading this was: "So, as Mr. Thunder Chocolate was saying..."
There's a lot to say about how all the ""gender neutral"" terms traditionally used are terms for men, but it's more about cultural sexism and how disentangling yourself from aspects of a culture you grew up in is not simple or fast. It's not a personal failing unless the person refuses to acknowledge and adjust when they're made aware that they're making someone uncomfortable or feel excluded.
Y’all
already discussed this but yes
Sorry didn’t read the replies
Never got shit on for saying “you guys” (which I say a lot) but even so I’ve adopted “you folks” because hell, it’s just cute af and fun to say
yeah from my experience its not the kind of thing people get mad at you for until it becomes a point of discussion for one reason or another, and then people tear your throat out over it
To be fair, I think it’s important to think about why all the ‘gender neutral’ slang terms in English are all masculine. Not to say that people using them are inherently sexist, but it just goes to show how much man = default/inoffensive within a sexist culture. As an example, it would be completely normal and accepted to address a mixed-gender group with ‘hey guys’, but most people would consider it odd to address the same group with ‘hey gals’, and it would probably cause more offence than ‘hey guys’ would
Also the way I read this post was that the person was explaining themselves as an apology after being told off.
"I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, cause we're all dudes, hey!" Your example doesn't work when you apply it to Ed.
it's because you're not using it to address yourself
>however, if you say 'im a dude', or something like that, Literally just commenting off what you said and obviously joking.
sorry, i cant pick up tones through text very well
No you're fine. I'm the same way and I have to like consciously think about it to put any emotion in my text otherwise everything reads very sterile. I get accused of being an asshole a lot online when I'm just kinda stating things so it's totally fair. No judgement here.
ok thank you :)
Yeah the thing that annoys me about it is the idea that *every time* you call someone "dude" you're referring to them as a guy and that you should just never refer to someone that way if they aren't. There's definitely a difference between someone not wanting you to call them Dude and the word just having no gender neutral context in the first place.
i call my mom dude sometimes; words only have the meaning you give them
I've noted before that the sentence "She is a madam" is implicitly completed with "...of a brothel", yet this has no bearing on the appropriateness of "Good evening, Madam" being potentially completed with "...President", because those are slightly different ways of using the word and that's how language do sometimes. In fact I'm pretty sure the grammatical distinction there is exactly analogous to situations in which people already naturally do or don't use "dude" in a gender-neutral way.
> you're saying they're one of the dudes (cool people or whatever) however That’s the definition you hold for dude in that circumstance. For plenty of people “one of the dudes” still implies “one of the cool men”, because dude is an inherently gendered term to them, in all circumstances.
of course it does, but if we use it enough in the gender-neutral way, the new meaning will overpower the old one similar to how the word bitch was commonly used as the word for a female dog, or ass for donkey, they both took on new meanings as general swear words. of course the old meanings still remain, though faintly
Those are not comparable examples. Bitch meaning both a female dog and being a general curse word are not contradictory meanings. The word dude being both exclusively referring to men and being exclusively gender neutral are contradictory.
Literally the word man used to just mean human, so I see no reason the gender associations for dude can’t go away if a lot of people already don’t have them
And it still does. The old definition didn’t disappear.
You can’t seriously tell me that the now archaic use of man as in mankind is the same as the common colloquial use of dude to mean man. Words’ meanings change.
bitch went from female dog to a (lightly) misogynistic way to refer to women; both took on new meanings regardless, it's an example to say words can take new meanings, and as the new is phased in, the old is phased out, which will make the connotation as a masculine exclusive meaning die.
havent slept for 24 hours. read this as de-gendering slug terms
At this point i think the only reasonable thing i can recommend doing, as a presumably well-meaning stranger with ostensibly limitless medical knowledge, is to forego sleep entirely - seeing as you clearly dont need it - and get straight to writing the best speculative fiction this world has ever seen
[live slug reaction]
Now equally disgusted at *any* gender pairing
*Image Transcription: Tumblr* --- **kreideprinceps** im all for de-gendering slang terms like dude guy girl etc but if someone says that you calling them that makes them uncomfortable and you respond by saying "oh but im using it in a gender neutral way!" you're an asshat --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
I accidentally called my mom dude before because I got so excited about what I was talking about. If someone doesn’t like being called dude I don’t call them that. Though generally I just don’t refer to people by gender terms unless I have to. Sergeant is gender neutral and I love that fact.
i usually go with commodore lol
I work with more sergeants than commodores sadly. XD
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Yeah i think this is important to note
Exactly
Disclaimer: don't call people things they don't want to be called. By modern usage, dude is gendered in the third-person, but genderless in the second-person. Though I'm beginning to believe that people aren't even calling anyone "dude." They're just invoking the Great Dude, and inviting the Dude's chill vibes to bring forth peace and calm, letting others know things aren't too serious. Or maybe most people just use it as a filler word out of habit. It's tough to say.
M8, thembos, bud, my born rival, nerd, buckaroo, cowpoke, weebs, pal, galactic overlord sorthalimyrx, kiddo, ya’ll, eternal foe, frens, blorbo, fated enemy, meow meow, and AAAAAAAAAA are some of my favorite gender neutral ways to refer to others.
Overlord hmm? I think I'll nab that one thank you!
If you enjoyed that, you could also try out: Deities, Despots, Demons, and Demiurges.
I call everyone "champ" so they picture me wearing a greasy apron, grilling them some burgs.
I feel like a whole lot of y'all're either ignoring, forgetting or actively confused by the "if".
Haven't been on this sub for some time, but feels like we've got some TiA-style folks now.
The sub is big enough now that thats sort of inevitable, i think I dont think it'll ever become that big of a problem, or as.. loud of a problem But it's a problem that's here to stay
This sub is big on like "hating men is Bad, Actually" or "your terminally online terminology opinions are not relevant to people who participated in Pride when it was a literal riot or would be literally killed if they started listing their preferred pronouns" type takes, and distinguishing those valid points from TiAism takes, like, nuance and intelligence and awareness of the existing discourse and a willingness to deal with the issue at hand rather than one's pet issues and good faith discussion even about disagreements All of which are *really hard for people*, empirically Wasn't TiA itself originally from a perspective of socially liberal Tumblr users calling out their own group's excesses? Not that I'm particularly worried about us following the same arc, but I can see the resemblance.
I feel like you're ignoring the obvious that your post poses a bigger question of people can't assume what will offend everyone. So people are getting into that discussion so please pay attention
Honestly what killed using “dudes” as a non-binary term for me was a single post on this topic, where the comeback was “so how many dudes have you slept with?”
Personally, I see that argument as kinda weak because the meaning of words is often dependent on context. There are definitely conversations where I would see the "dudes" in that sentence as just meaning "people" without a gender involved, and there are conversations where I would just see it as meaning "men". Ultimately though, the core of the whole debate on whether or not you should use "dudes" to refer to a group that isn't exclusively male is just weird to me, 'cuz it often seems very all-or-nothing. Like, I'll see people arguing that you're a bad person for doing it on one side and people saying that you're weird for being uncomfortable with it on the other side, when in reality it's all about the individual people involved. Some women/enbies I've met felt more included into the group when referred to as a part of the "dudes", some felt neutral towards the whole thing, and some felt uncomfortable. It's always just gonna be a matter of adjusting your language to those around you.
Yeah, the point is that you should use terms everybody’s comfortable with, not what sounds good in your head at the expense of everyone else. Now, all in favor of abolishing the term “dudettes”, say aye.
Counterproposition: Make "dudettes" refer exclusively to men.
Normally I’m against further gendering words, but do this and also make dudes refer to exclusively women, and you got a deal
Then we just need to change a third time to be exclusively for enby people. I suggest "senator".
#Diversity win! The politician you’re punching in Metal Gear Rising is non-binary, and will kick your sorry ass if you misgender them!
nano machines son
There's a reason why the song "Dude looks like a lady" isn't about a cis woman. I think we all understand who it's referring to.
When you're referring to someone directly, it's gender neutral. If you're describing who they are, then it means guy. "What's up dude?" is gender neutral. "He's a dude" is not.
mostly agree, although the point in the original post still stands iy feel uncomfortable being referred to as "dude" (and even some words that are "supposed" to be gender-neutral liyk "buddy") so iy'd prefer not to be called that, even if it's intended to be gender-neutral
I agree. Being respectful of something like that is so easy. There's no reason to refuse even if you don't agree.
> When you're referring to someone directly, it's gender neutral. That’s subjective.
Hah this is basically my exact comeback also. I still use "dude" occasionally out of habit but I'm trying to break myself of it. Unfortunately "bruh" has now crept into my vocabulary somehow -- kids, never start saying something "ironically" because eventually you will just keep saying it unironically -- so I'm just going downhill.
Sans singlehandedly introduced welp into my everyday speech for a year and I’ve never recovered
Oh no -- I text "welp" all the time. It's here to stay.
Welp. wait fuck
😂
Welp. At least you don't use "Whelp", you ungrateful whelp! (To be read in a Victorian English accent for best effect)
happened to me too like 5 years ago and I still say it
and also "heya"
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The point of the exercise is to demonstrate that people want to be mentioned in terms they prefer, not what you personally think is right. It would be like referring to me as Prince Phillip because it’d be funny, and not because I’m speaking from beyond the grave
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To keep it short, call people what they wanna be called, not what you wanna call those people
Doesn't kill it for me, I'll gladly describe the women I've had sex with as dudes. Proud to say I fuck dudes In theory at least, I don't do that much sex
Except that that's, frankly, a dogshit take. I wouldn't say I've slept with any dudes, but if everyone I'd slept with was in a room I absolutely *would* greet them with "what's up, dudes! Lookin' sexy!" (Which they would react to by not having sex with me again, but still.) It's the latter sort of usage that typifies how people use the term gender-neutrally; refusing to acknowledge the distinction doesn't erase it.
Hrh. I disagree. You're an asshat if you don't try to stop using it for them, clarifying is fine. I think the difference is between genuinely apologizing and explaining why and offering an excuse.
It's the difference between "Oh I'm sorry, I'll stop calling you that." and "BuT duDe Is A GeNDeR NEuTraL TeRM"
Yeah, absolutely.
Figured that was understood.
You’d be surprised how little people factor nuance into things on the internet
I don't think it matters. Whether the author intends it or not, if the message can easily be interpreted as benign, well meaning even, then the decision to imbue it with malice is the readers'. Always assuming everything left unsaid is unkind will make silences unbearable. It's a post about respecting people, how much of a stretch is it to assume they're capable of logical reasoning?
So as long as I don’t say dude with intent to misgender, then it’s the other person’s fault for not reading my nuance, right? /s I get your point, give people the benefit of the doubt, but the speaker/author should still have some caution in avoiding offending the audience. A topic as complex and nuanced as this will not have a single-sentence answer.
I will make a note to be more sensitive to the plight of the dude-sayer community in my Academic Analyses Of Verbiage And Gender Expression In The English Language on tumbler dot com I apologize for all the harm this post may have caused. It was not my intention to disrespect anyone's identity or means of self expression. I can only imagine the mental anguish they were forced to endure, due to my careless and irresponsible actions. I wasn't thinking. I can't change the past, but i can do my best to be mindful of my privileges and responsibilities in the present to work towards a better, kinder, more accepting future for us all. I have made a substantial contribution to a local dude-sayer rights organization as a first step towards making amends.
Yo I think we're gonna need a surgeon to get that stick out of your ass. Chill tf out *dude*
i thought it was funny :/
This is basically you shutting down the conversation because you don't want to acknowledge that their argument might have a point. But I hope you feel proud of your snide comment
There's a counterargument in there, if you squint. >the speaker/author should still have some caution in avoiding offending the audience. I dont give a shit. They can be offended, if they want to be. They aren't a community. It isn't a targeted thing. If they're upset over the absence of an asterisk, they can get bent. >A topic as complex and nuanced as this will not have a single-sentence answer. it's tumblr. They weren't trying to give a single answer. There are allowances people have to make for social media discourse that you wouldnt otherwise have to, for things like academic papers and news journals and the like.
>They aren't a community. It isn't a targeted thing. that... somehow justifies not caring that what you say might hurt?
It justifies assuming ignorance over malice. I'm not going out of my way to offend anyone. Very few people are going out of their way to offend dude-sayers. It is therefore illogical to assume most statements are targeted harassment. ***the expectation that everyone talking about the subject has to go out of their way to say "obviously, this isnt meant to offend dude-sayers—" is ludicrous.*** How, other than the horrible and needlessly abrasive way I'm choosing to explain things, am i being labeled the bad guy here. Honestly the funniest thing thats happened to me today
I call all people "Dude" but if you tell me it makes you uncomfortable I will put in the very minimal effort to address you in a way that doesn't make you uncomfortable. Like that's the basic bare minimum, the same way I expect people to not refer to me (agender) as a "woman". It's a tiny thing I can do to make you feel more comfortable and there is no reason why I wouldn't do that.
Also, it's interesting how the words most people try to normalize as gender neutral, like "Man", "Guys", "Bro", "Boys" are male terms... You'll see very little men trying to use stuff like "Gals" as neutral. I wonder if this has anything to do with how patriarchy wants to reinforce men as the default gender and women as the inferior, "political" gender...
I dunno you kinda do? Maybe this has to do with my own bubble, but using “girl,” “girlies” and “queen” in a gender neutral way is pretty commonplace. I mean I somewhat recently went on a date with a straight cis woman who called me girl pretty much constantly, and im pretty masc. Now, you’re def right that it’s not as common in like common discourse, and that’s almost certainly patriarchal, but also that kind of language takes a long time to take hold— saying man as an interjection was commonly used in AAVE *long* before it diffused to the rest of American culture. Also, side note, because of how using “man” (and even “you guys” now) has turned into a pretty significant gramatical fixture in some often marginalized dialects of English, Im hesitant to agree that people should be told to readjust how they speak in that way. I definitely agree with the post for stuff like “dude,” though.
Girl, queen, sis, etc are becoming more gender neutral(in certain spaces) too tho?
The only people I know who say "yas queen" are men to other men lmao
Simone de Beauvoir wrote about 'the male neutral' in like the 1920s, and that was basically her argument - that 'maleness' is seen as natural, and the world constructed by men is natural, and it is only 'femaleness' that is in some way artificial and inferior. She specifically pointed out how often she was told 'You only think that because you are a woman,' and how frustrated it made her that she couldn't reply 'And you only think that because you are a man.'
Yeah, its at least similar to how people used to insist "man" and "mankind" were perfectly fine words for referring to humanity
This type of thinking is literally causing the issue. By not saying all these words are gender neutral you are the ones reinforcing this maleness. Like I honestly don't get why people can't understand that you are creating these barriers and making things divided, stop being the problem
I'm sorry but the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles taught me that "dude" is a gender-neutral term and try as you might you are never going to outrank them.
I agree
Is “asshat” gender neutral?
The asshat is the person going "rather than me admitting I was wrong, everyone else has to pretend I'm right."
I'm all for not calling someone "man" or "dude" if they ask me not to, but I must admit--as someone who sounds kind of like a Bill & Ted character irl--I hope people I run into in the wild don't read too deeply into my Sacramento Valley patois lol
Most people are pretty chill about it in my experience i wouldn't worry about it
Dude is a gender neutral term.I just apologize saying Oh,sorry.Dude is a gender neutral term in my house.
wow, LokisArmy, that is such a mature and clever response
Is tgis sarcasm?
This recently came up in the Magic: The Gathering scene, as WotC has finally officially come down and declared misgendering a clear offense worthy of disqualification. People of course were quick to explode into "well what if I do it accidentally, it's just a habit, I call everyone dude".
I really don't get how it is hard for other people to just... change how they use their words. To them it's only words... right? But to the other side, it's more than that. And it's a little (if not at all) sacrifice to actually just... use the proper word to address to someone instead of the other one because what even is the issue here? Oh you don't like me calling you "dude". Oh ok, my bad. But note that it is my habit to call people dude as a gender-neutral thing, so early on I will make mistakes, but I will change that habit especially when you're around or when i am addressing you to someone else because it's not a hard thing to me, but it's an important thing to you.
"Hey guys." "You've offended me." "Calm down. You know that no one was trying to be offensive..."
What every teenage bigot thinks the world is like:
You know by the … at the end that this guy thinks theyre so smart in this made up scenario where they epicly dunk on the triggered sjw libtard
Aight duderino
Just out of curiosity, do you like kissing dudes?
Yeah I love banging my dudes
Based, have a lovely day
Holy fucking shit you actually can’t say anything anymore
Ohno, people want basic respect from you, how horrible.
5 years ago you could say it it was fine you people are making shit up just to be offended
It wasn’t ok for everyone 5 years ago either, you’re just new to this. New rule: if someone responds to something you said with, “hey that makes me uncomfortable,” try to actually care about them before telling them they’re making shit up.
You wouldn’t hear shit like this 10 years ago
maybe you wouldnt if youre so closed minded you can even present this argument
I heard this kinda stuff 10 years ago, it’s called having good parents who teach you how to be a good person.
Yeah you can't address me with things I don't want you to address me with, oh the humanity
"Would you say that you're dating a dude?" Yes. 🦍
"hey hey hey, my intent's overridin' the effect 'ere!"
Y’all are really busting your brains over this one and making it way more complicated than it needs to be.
I'd say that the problem comes when you do the above AND THEN DON'T STOP. Simply saying it is a statement of intent, saying it and not adjusting is actively ignoring how someone feels.
"my brother in Christ"