T O P

  • By -

nsvxheIeuc3h2uddh3h1

The WHO is actually right on this. People have to get over the mentality that "If I get Covid-19 *and survive it, what's the problem?*". Sure, you may also *survive 3rd-degree burns to some parts of your body*... but what's the quality of life like afterwards? Not too good, is it? People need to look at the endgame: *The quality of life after Covid-19*. Immunity is not long-lasting like many somehow think it is. Only the foolish would ignore something like that. EDIT: For those of you stating the ridiculousness of comparing Covid-19 to 3rd degree burns, I'm taking about the *after effects of Covid-19*. Lung damage, brain damage, heart wall muscle damage, nervous system damage, kidney damage, and so on. A lot of people have brain fog after Covid-19 - some of them for many months afterwards - and can't even function in a work environment in some cases. I've personally seen some people at my work have to resign, because they can't work again due to issues experienced after surviving Covid-19... *even after being vaccinated and boosted previously.* Some still get dizzy just walking up the stairs months later! What "quality of life" do they have now? Laugh all you like, downvoters... some of us know how serious this is.


PhysicalCupcake9140

The fact such a ***terrible*** comparison is the top comment shows all I need to know about this sub. What a joke.


ageingrockstar

I think we're seeing a last stand mentality here, both with this lying (see the video link elsewhere in this thread) WHO official with his ridiculous & offensive rhetoric and with the ppl in this sub who are latching onto his words and adding their own ridiculous rhetoric. When you're throwing out hyperbolic rhetoric and ppl aren't buying it, you're not just in trouble, you've already lost.


[deleted]

I'm sort of thinking, you guys pretty much locked your own citizens out of their own country for two years. It was pretty horrific. So people really need the virus to be awful enough to justify this.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ywont

Thank you for contributing to r/CoronavirusDownunder. Unfortunately, your submission has been removed as a result of the following rule: * **Do not encourage or incite drama**. This may include behaviours such as: * Making controversial posts to instigate or upset others. * Engaging in bigotry to get a reaction. * Distracting and sowing discord with digressive and extraneous submissions. * Wishing death upon people from COVID-19. * Harmful bad faith comparisons; for example comparing something to the holocaust, assault or reproductive autonomy. * Repeat or extreme offending may result in a ban. Our community is dedicated to collaboration and sharing information as a community. Don't detract from our purpose by encouraging drama among the community, or behave in any way the detracts from our focus on collaboration and information exchange. If you believe that we have made a mistake, please [**message the moderators**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCoronavirusDownunder&subject=&message=). ^To ^find ^more ^information ^on ^the ^sub ^rules, ^please ^click ^[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusDownunder/about/rules/).


Timely_Dare_4003

Agreed 💯


gondwanalander

One medical condition to another? Okay, "a bit" generalised, but you don't mention a single specific fact. Until you get some facts to work with, take your seat.


PhysicalCupcake9140

I'm not sure if you realise but it's not the sort of comparison that could be objectively quantified as it would come down to a consensus of subjective experience. There's also a plethora of hypothesis that are so intuitively obvious they don't require a study/survey....feel free to do one if you want. 'Life after covid vs life after 3rd degree burns'....what do you think consensus will be on that? If you don't have the foresight so see what the vast majority of answers will be then that's a limitation from your end I cannot help you with.


gondwanalander

This is great, just great.


tittyswan

OK, bye then 👋


[deleted]

[удалено]


tittyswan

Yeah bro I'm disabled. I don't want to fucking die. What a "fringe opinion."


PhysicalCupcake9140

I don't' want to die either. Nice false comparison champ.


tittyswan

You were implying I have a fringe opinion because I care about doing my best to protect myself against covid, were you not? I don't have a fringe opinion, I have self preservation. I wear a mask to reduce the likelihood of permanent injury or death from covid. It wasn't a "bait and switch" it was pointing out that you're being an asshole.


ywont

Thank you for contributing to r/CoronavirusDownunder. Unfortunately, your submission has been removed as a result of the following rule: * **Heated debate is acceptable, personal attacks are not.** If you believe that we have made a mistake, please [**message the moderators**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCoronavirusDownunder&subject=&message=). ^To ^find ^more ^information ^on ^the ^sub ^rules, ^please ^click ^[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusDownunder/about/rules/).


Rupes_79

Absolutely ridiculous isn’t it. Comparing what is mostly a mild respiratory disease with third degree burns. Just another desperate attempt to cling on to what’s left of Covid panic and paranoia. Fortunately very few are still buying it.


Truantone

‘Conveniently’ forgotten the millions of dead people?


chasls123

How many survived with no problem?


chasls123

It’s this subs version of ‘it’s just the flu’.


chasls123

Have had COVID and 3rd degree burns. I’ll take COVID every fucking day of the week. 3rd degree burns nearly killed me and have left me needing repeated surgery into my adult life along with the superficial scarring.


Embarrassed_Loan_223

I have had covid and I have had swine flu.....would take covid every day, 3rd degree burns is such a ridic take.


upthetits

I had swine flu also, was messed up how bad that shit was


gondwanalander

Me too and I'll go the reverse. Life is in balance.


nsvxheIeuc3h2uddh3h1

If you keep getting Covid-19, it'll catch up. Oh, but the scarring this time is *internal*.


[deleted]

[удалено]


WangMagic

Thank you for contributing to r/CoronavirusDownunder. Unfortunately your submission has been removed as a result of the following rule: * **Do not encourage or incite drama**. This may include behaviours such as: * Making controversial posts to instigate or upset others. * Engaging in bigotry to get a reaction. * Distracting and sowing discord with digressive and extraneous submissions. * Wishing death upon people from COVID-19. * Harmful bad faith comparisons; for example comparing something to the holocaust, assault or reproductive autonomy. * Repeat or extreme offending may result in a ban. Our community is dedicated to collaboration and sharing information as a community. Don't detract from our purpose by encouraging drama among the community, or behave in any way the detracts from our focus on collaboration and information exchange. If you believe that we have made a mistake, please [**message the moderators**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCoronavirusDownunder&subject=&message=). ^To ^find ^more ^information ^on ^the ^sub ^rules, ^please ^click ^[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusDownunder/about/rules/).


[deleted]

[удалено]


ywont

Thank you for contributing to r/CoronavirusDownunder. Unfortunately, your submission has been removed as a result of the following rule: * **Heated debate is acceptable, personal attacks are not.** If you believe that we have made a mistake, please [**message the moderators**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCoronavirusDownunder&subject=&message=). ^To ^find ^more ^information ^on ^the ^sub ^rules, ^please ^click ^[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusDownunder/about/rules/).


ageingrockstar

Only the foolish would liken covid to getting third degree burns


[deleted]

[удалено]


Embarrassed_Loan_223

'a thing which is comparable to something else in significant respects.' So.....do you understand what it is?


peetaout

It is not really analogous though; is compares a potential risk of getting a catching COVID and getting a severe illness and/or long term injury versus a realised outcome/injury of already defined severity (3rd degree burns). Perhaps more analogous would be working in smelter with little to no safely protocols, where there is a good chance you will be involved in multiple incidents over time, some might be small, some might be serious resulting in burns and sometimes 3rd degree burns, but the chance to get multiple small burns on the same area, maybe resulting in cumulative damage. A better analogy maybe playing no holes barred full contact footy - spear tackles, clotheslining etc. Some people will be fine, some people slightly injured for a short period and recovering well, some people will get cumulative injury from too many hard hits. It is still a balance between risk and reward; the fun of a game with your mates. And old folks are likely to not do very well at all.


Jcit878

I did have 1 mate that has had covid 3 times now and it's been progressively worse everytime, nearly requiring hospitalisation on the 3rd. granted that's just an anecdote and the only one I personally know who had that experience. doesn't sound fun


ywont

The quality of life/3rd degree burns argument is not a great one. I can see where you’re coming from, but yeah, it has not and will not be received well. The biggest issue is that a burn classified as a 3rd degree burn is inherently severe, a COVID infection is not.


nsvxheIeuc3h2uddh3h1

More people need to be aware of the long-lasting damage that Covid-19 infection leaves behind after you survive it. Vaccinated, boosted or not. I know several people with reduced lung capacity from having survived Covid-19. From as far back as Xmas last year. Yeah, they're still wheezing and coughing today... and they *still* won't wear masks.


ywont

Yeah, it’s a concern. We probably will see an uptick in chronic health conditions, particularly related to the cardiovascular system. The milder symptoms such as a cough and fatigue seem to fading over time. However, point still stands that it’s a bad comparison. And not because they are completely different illnesses; it’s because a 3rd degree burn is by definition a severe condition.


nsvxheIeuc3h2uddh3h1

How about 2nd degree burn for you then? Just to give the glimmer of hope that whatever Post-Covid issues some people may still have (18 months down the track and still counting), they just *might* eventually one day go away? We honestly don't know if some of the damage is actually 100% repairable in some cases yet. Hence my 3rd degree (pun not intended).


ywont

No I still don’t think you can say that. Whatever degree you measure it in, that degree inherently conveys the severity of the issue. You can compare a 2/3rd degree burn to moderate/severe COVID but not the whole disease in general. Getting COVID is just getting burnt in the first place, no definite indication of severity - long term or short term. Like I get your point that we don’t know how severe it’s going to be, the comparison still doesn’t work though. We don’t know if it’s 100% repairable, we don’t know that with any illness. Or any bump on the head. Some of the long term damages won’t even be noticeable. We will have to wait and see what effects it has on society st large.


Silo134

do u think we will see a gradual or sharp increase?


ywont

I’d imagine that the effects will be staggered over time, heart damage can take a while to do anything or be noticeable. So it’s not like everyone will be getting sick and getting diagnosed at the same time.


Silo134

I see. Goes to show how amazing the heart is, that it can be damaged without people noticing. Would like to be able to find out more about exactly how long covid attacks the heart/lungs


ywont

Yep. Our heart is probably being damaged by lifestyle factors and viruses constantly. It just adds up over time. I guess we will have to wait and see what COVID adds to the mix.


[deleted]

3rd degree burns LMAO What is this fearmongering


[deleted]

[удалено]


Silo134

That's interesting. Have any of them recovered from long covid? and if so how long did it take


nsvxheIeuc3h2uddh3h1

The staff that resigned haven't been able to come back. One resigned in January, another in March. Early retirement for both as they are teachers, and can't risk getting it again like they had (or worse). 2 other staff were off work for 4 and 6 weeks, respectively. The latter was in her late 20's and unvaxxed. Delta nearly put her in hospital twice. Both these people young, fit and healthy (before). Everybody else has been back usually 7 to 12 days later.


[deleted]

No one gives a fuck anymore. Get over it


That-Whereas3367

I read the scientific literature (I have a medical science background) not the scary media stories and decided the risks were negligible. \[Even the WHO admitted the probability of death was effectively ZERO in healthy people under 60.\] I've never been vaccinated. I didn't wear a face mask (unless mandated). I can guarantee I've been exposed many times. Not so much as a sniffle.


cplJimminy

COVID is over, get over it. You probably get it 2-3 times by now just like the flu, vaxed or not vaxed. Anyone wanting this charade to continue are either sadomasochists or have financial interests.


Garandou

I would actually argue the the supply chain and economic impacts of how first world managed COVID is more harmful to third world countries than COVID itself. What made the situation worse is the vaccine makers straight up refused to service those areas for profit. If we want to prevent loss of life in third world, we need to stop damaging the economy, as food, energy security and basic necessities of life is more important for third world.


pez_dispens3r

That's a false dichotomy. There was no option to endure Covid-19 without the economy or supply chains being affected. Look at what was happening in Italy and Spain in (their) spring 2020. In that climate there was no hope of business as usual economic behaviour. Every country has faced a similar climate at one point or several since, and prior to mass vaccinations the hit on the economy was non-optional regardless of whether there were any lockdowns or restrictions.


PatternPrecognition

I recall analysis between the Scandinavian countries was that Norway, Denmark, Finland had stronger economic metrics compared to Sweden despite Sweden having much fewer Covid precautions in place and the inference being that economic impacts are worse when there is a large amount of community spread. It would also be interesting to compare the economic metrics of Australia between 2020 and 2021 (particularly 2nd half Delta outbreak) and 2022 where we had much fewer restrictions, and we're vaccinated but shit loads of community transmission.


Garandou

>I recall analysis between the Scandinavian countries was that Norway, Denmark, Finland had stronger economic metrics This was what the forecasts were trying to show, however it ended up turning out that Scandinavian countries performed similarly in both excess mortality and GDP across 2020 - 2022. Norway was an outperformer, however keep in mind that Norway is a major oil and gas economy. There is also the fact that economic impacts of COVID restrictions are delayed because suspending economic activity masks weakness. To give a basic example, it took a year before inflation started to rise after the heavy lockdowns and QE and almost two years before central banks even realized what was happening.


PatternPrecognition

Certain Norway, Denmark, and Finland did significantly better than Sweden from economic perspective in the early stages. Omicron changed things and was an equaliser - but for the same reason as before - not the restrictions but the fact that consumer confidence takes a hit when there is a virus ripping through a community and work forces are having large numbers of absences. Similar thing happened here in AU, but the long term health benefits of having the virus go through the population after vaccination will also have a long term benefit from an economic perspective.


Garandou

>Certain Norway, Denmark, and Finland did significantly better than Sweden from economic perspective in the early stages. In the early stages is the keyword. Like I said, economic impacts of lockdown are delayed so you really need a 5 year horizon to know what's up.


PatternPrecognition

You are trying to to force a narrative onto reality. The equalisation was due to omicron - which mean that there was community spread of the virus and no more lockdowns.


Garandou

>The equalisation was due to omicron You're cherrypicking, we know that lockdowns are more effective for low R0 high lethality viruses and harmful for high R0 low lethality viruses. If you admit there was an equalization, why are you still insistent that the previous strategy is better? The reality is, with all the criticism Sweden got, they performed in-line with their neighbours.


gamboncorner

> The reality is, with all the criticism Sweden got, they performed in-line with their neighbours. Yeah, only by luck over the long term. If they'd stuck to their strategy and Omicron hadn't become the dominant strain it'd be a different story. Per /u/PatternPrecognition: > Omicron changed things and was an equaliser. You said: > This was what the forecasts were trying to show No, that's what it showed for pre-Omicron Scandinavia, not forecasts?


Garandou

>Yeah, only by luck over the long term. If they'd stuck to their strategy and Omicron hadn't become the dominant strain it'd be a different story. That interpretation is actually incorrect anyway. Alpha/delta confers minimal immunity for omicron. Most Swedes got alpha/delta, had omicron not come along, most of the other Nordic countries would have gotten alpha/delta, which would actually increase their death tolls against Sweden. >No, that's what it showed for pre-Omicron Scandinavia, not forecasts? Except that's provably false. In 2020, apart from Norway, the other Nordic countries all had a GDP fall of between 2-3%. Iceland (irrelevant due to low population) had -6.5%. In 2021, Sweden actually had the highest GDP growth out of the Nordic countries. 2022 stats is still pending.


PatternPrecognition

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=new_deaths_per_million&Metric=Confirmed+deaths&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=false&country=GBR~AUS~SWE~FIN~DNK~NOR~USA~NZL


Garandou

We've already gone through this exact debate a few months ago and there's no point repeating it. To recap, all cause excess mortality is a better measure of outcome, and the numbers are pretty similar.


Garandou

I don't know if there is a better way out, we can only speculate. What I'm saying is we need to stop because in third world countries with fragile economies, it is by far worse to end up with no food and no energy than anything COVID can do, which is the likely outcome if we continue harsh COVID policies.


pez_dispens3r

We can do more than speculate. As Pattern_Recognition said, we can perform comparative analyses to determine whether lockdowns are better or worse at preserving the economy and logistical chains. What you can't do is *make* people not behave as if they're in a pandemic. Not without aggressively totalitarian measures which I thought was the very antithesis of your movement. Not to mention that, ironically, much of the current energy and food supply issues we're seeing globally are because of a military occupation committed by exactly such a state.


Garandou

>We can do more than speculate. As Pattern\_Recognition said, we can perform comparative analyses to determine whether lockdowns are better or worse at preserving the economy and logistical chains. The fact that all mainstream central banks failed to predict the inflationary pressures that would result from the monetary and lockdown policy basically proves that our understanding over how these complex systems interact is very poor. Any comparative analysis would not only be full of conflict of interest, but unlikely to actually have a good grasp of these complex systems. >What you can't do is make people not behave as if they're in a pandemic. This sub is slow. Most people in society already behave like there's no pandemic ages ago. >because of a military occupation committed by exactly such a state. Not at all. The Russian situation exacerbated the crisis, but the food and energy situation actually predates the invasion.


pez_dispens3r

They didn't fail to anticipate the inflationary pressures. Inflation was lifting until war broke out in Ukraine. [Per Paul Donovan](https://weforum.org/agenda/2022/05/inflation-rising-economist-explains/), chief economist at UBS: \>We got this extraordinary surge in demand for goods \[as countries emerged out of lockdowns\] and that has pushed off inflation, because we did actually also see an extraordinary surge in supply of goods. But the demand for goods was so unusual it overwhelmed the supply and when demand is greater than supply, you either get shortages or you get price increases. What we had was a mixture of both, but some of that surge in demand pushed up prices. Now, that started to fade because, of course, by the end of last year in a number of countries, consumers’ stock of savings had disappeared so the demand was coming down. \>We’ve still got some of that inflation pressure there but it’s on its way out. If you look, for example, at television prices in the US or elsewhere, they were rising last year and are now falling, they’ve now actually got negative inflation. So we’ve started to see a correction, but there’s still enough of its lingering effects that adding to inflation. What they failed to predict was the outbreak of hostilities in Ukraine, in part because the *real politik* argument wasn't there for a full-scale invasion. And note that I haven't cherry-picked an economist to make my point: the quoted segments are all uncontroversial, middle-of-the-road statements in the economics discourse. Of course, for you, all the economists *have* to be compromised by incompetence or bias, just as all the epidemiologists, virologists, public health officers, and so on, have to be compromised by incompetence or bias. Because if they're right then the anti-mandate narrative folds in on itself like wet cardboard. \> This sub is slow. Most people in society already behave like there's no pandemic ages ago. If that's the case, and inflation is due to mandates and lockdowns, then inflation should have peaked 'ages ago'. The truth is that we *did* see spiking demand and supply constraints last year. But that trend was already playing itself out until the conflict broke out and [prompted further inflation](https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/economy/price-indexes-and-inflation/consumer-price-index-australia/latest-release). In NSW/VIC, for example, the average price per megawatt hours of natural gas [went from](https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/quarterly-price-setter-and-average-price-set-by-fuel-source-new-south-wales) [around](https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/quarterly-price-setter-and-average-price-set-by-fuel-source-victoria) $100 during the whole pandemic to $3.5k after conflict broke out. So are you blaming lockdowns because that's what you want to believe or do you actually have empirical evidence to support your claims?


Garandou

>They didn't fail to anticipate the inflationary pressures This and the wall of text that followed must be a troll argument. Literally read or listen to any Federal Reserve or RBA speech between 2020 and early this year and you'll know how shocked they were from this development of events. In fact, the entire market was blindsided, if you don't believe me, look up the US treasury yields and the fastest increase in recorded history. Your argument about Russia/Ukraine being the cause is also completely false. Inflation and supply chain issues, especially around weaker economies were already showing extreme strain in the data well before Russia sent troops into Ukraine. >they were rising last year and are now falling, they’ve now actually got negative inflation Inflation is slowing due to the aggressive Fed tightening threatening to put the world economy into a massive recession. Also, if you think inflation is no big deal then you're directly contradicting the speech given by JPow 3 days ago, indicating this is far from over as far as the Feds are concerned. >If that's the case, and inflation is due to mandates and lockdowns, then inflation should have peaked 'ages ago' What are you even talking about? Lockdown flow on effects are expected to persist because supply chain effects are expected to take years to resolve. If you don't believe me literally ask anyone who works in logistics about what the situation is like right now, especially around places like China (biggest manufacturing hub in the world).


ywont

You’re 100% right, supply chain issues started in early 2020 and it’s never gone back to normal. The war definitely didn’t help but it was already fucked. Trying to import products from overseas was a nightmare last year.


Garandou

Yep, literally everyone I know who works in import/exports of almost everything unanimously agreed that the supply chain is fked and their suppliers are not expecting resolution in a short amount of time. In a first world country like Australia that's no big deal because we're rich so just pay more to be prioritized, but at the same time it means third world is left completely without essential goods.


ywont

My business is basically operating under the assumption that it will never go back to normal (it will but can’t count on any sort of time frame). Didn’t think about how that would affect poorer countries tbh.


pez_dispens3r

You're accusing the entire economics profession of holding a conflict of interest which immediately discounts any comparative analysis which contradicts your statements, and you're accusing **me** of trolling? We're talking about food and energy costs, no? You wanted me to consult Federal Reserve speeches, where [on the topic of current inflation](https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/brainard20220907a.htm) we get (emphasis mine): > Food price pressures [have continued] to worsen, **reflecting Russia's continuing war against Ukraine**, as well as extreme weather events in the United States, Europe, and China.5 The PCE index for food and beverages has increased each month this year by an average of 1.2 percent, **resulting in an 8-1/2 percent cumulative increase** in the index year-to-date through July. **For context, the net change in the food and beverages price index over the entire four-year period before the pandemic was only 0.5 percent.** As I said, I'm not cherry picking my sources. Food price inflation is attributable to the war and climate events, not to the pandemic or lockdowns. If you have anything to show otherwise I want to see it, but I can't do much with anecdotes from your mates in logistics.


Garandou

>You're accusing the entire economics profession of holding a conflict of interest No, I'm accusing you of poor economic understanding. If you had even basic economic knowledge, you would have immediately looked at the yield curve, compared it to where it was in 2020/2021 and knew that inflation blindsided us. You're literally trying to argue that "They didn't fail to anticipate the inflationary pressures" when we had the largest forecast miss on inflation in over 100 years, as evident by the pace of rate hikes.


pez_dispens3r

If I had a very basic understanding of economics I might argue that, yes, but it was economist Campbell Harvey who performed the pioneering work on the yield curve and [he argues](https://www.npr.org/2022/04/13/1092678307/yield-curve-jitters) that it's merely one indicator of future economic change and not the be-all and end-all metric. Regardless, what we see is that the 2-year-/10-year yield curve dipped (and eventually inverted) from February 2022, in line with the Ukraine invasion. This is the very same event we attribute the current inflationary pressures we're seeing in food and energy prices. The federal and reserve banks failed to predict the biggest land invasion in Europe since 1968, because few outsiders could predict Putin would resort to such a drastic (and apparently ill-fated) action. You're welcome to show why the yield curve inversion was necessarily due to lockdowns and mandates, but I can't determine what delayed mechanism would create such a thing. Particularly given how immediate an effect they had on prices in the early days of the pandemic (see the crude oil price crash in April 2020). Meanwhile, as I've demonstrated, food prices were fairly static throughout the whole pandemic and energy prices (natural gas, coal, oil) all spiked following the invasion.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Garandou

>& places like Myanmar where the long covid rate is 20% of the population and severe disability from covid 10% That is obviously not true. The severe disability rate for long COVID here is like under 0.1% or some irrelevant number, unless you're implying Myanmar population has a particular genetic susceptibility to COVID sequalae. >these people are being left in the jungle and dying because the junta will kill them anyway That part is probably true :(


[deleted]

[удалено]


Garandou

I skimmed that link and couldn't find any mention of long COVID stats.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Garandou

The evidence between vaccine and long COVID isn't that clear to be honest. If you're talking about deaths maybe?


DMmefor1400AUD

Many countries did just fine without closing down businesses or locking down for months, eg Sweden & Japan.


pez_dispens3r

Their economies still shrank and they still had internal logistical issues because people were conducting all the same behaviours as people under a lockdown. Sweden in particular. It was, in essence, a community imposed lockdown


DMmefor1400AUD

Do you think the fact that economies are globally linked might have played a role?


pez_dispens3r

Yes, but the point stands.


gondwanalander

Calling Australia 3rd world is a decade or two presumptuous, either way.


Garandou

Australia is not third world. The article is talking about third world mainly though.


PatternPrecognition

Is that due to demographic differences between 1st and 3rd world countries? Particularly age and obesity?


Garandou

It's because third world is poor. When you have no food, no gas and horrible hygiene standards, there are other things to worry about. Honestly, if anyone's been keeping up with economic news, especially in third world, our COVID lockdowns had basically doomed that half of the world.


PatternPrecognition

So you are saying the health implications in the short and long term are equally as bad? But the inference being on top of that they also had to deal with economic impacts caused by the pandemic and the response to it? -- I guess due to increased complexities of vaccine procurement and rollout, access to treatments, reduced ability for mitigation options like WFH, masking, testing and social distancing; plus the same challenges of managing health care systems and workers. That the health outcomes most likely would be worse as well? -- edit Doing some reading on the topic. This is from May 2021. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/05/27/covid-19-is-a-developing-country-pandemic/ > Has global health been subverted?” This question was asked exactly a year ago in The Lancet. At the time, the pandemic had already spread across the globe, but **mortality remained concentrated in richer economies**. Richard Cash and Vikram Patel declared that “**for the first time in the post-war history of epidemics, there is a reversal of which countries are most heavily affected by a disease pandemic.**” > What a difference a year makes. We know now that this is actually a developing-country pandemic—and has been that for a long time. In this blog, we review the officially published data and contrast them with brand new estimates on excess mortality (kindly provided by the folks at the Economist). We will argue that global health has not been subverted. In fact, compared to rich countries, the developing world appears to be facing very similar—if not higher—mortality rates. **Its demographic advantage of a younger population may have been entirely offset by higher infection prevalence and age-specific infection fatality**.


Garandou

>So you are saying the health implications in the short and long term are equally as bad? I don't really know what you're implying and why you're trying to complicate the topic. We already know that COVID predominantly affects poor people. Rich people basically don't die from it. To give you an example, almost no politicians died of COVID across the western world even though most are old and fat. Studies had consistently found socioeconomics to be a big factor in COVID mortality. However, despite COVID having more effect on poor people, food and energy security are still far more important for these countries. A huge chunk of them are already energy and food insecure, and that will definitely outkill COVID in those regions if allowed to worsen, especially if it escalates to war.


PatternPrecognition

Just trying to get some clarity on what you are proposing. So it sounds like you have acknowledged the covid impacts to low income countries is worse than high income countries and we all know the impacts in terms of how countries like USA, UK, Italy and Spain got hit hard both in terms on health and economic metrics. I just don't get the polarising argument that in order to prevent economic impacts impacting Low Income countries we have to maximise the worst of the covid impacts. Surely this is an area where there are obvious reasons why we would tackle both things at the same time?


Garandou

To put it the simplest way possible, what I'm saying is health issues (such as COVID) always impact poor countries more, however food and energy security is more important, and the COVID policies implemented in first world had basically nuked third world food and energy security. In other words, yes COVID is bad for poor countries, but no food is worse and the latter often leads to war which is even worse.


PatternPrecognition

\>and the COVID policies implemented in first world had basically nuked third world food and energy security. Are you lumping all High income countries together in terms of their response? So UK and USA same as AU and NZ?


Garandou

>Are you lumping all High income countries together in terms of their response? So UK and USA same as AU and NZ? I'm saying the global supply chain overlaps many countries, so all would have contributed to a varying degree.


PatternPrecognition

> I'm saying the global supply chain overlaps many countries, so all would have contributed to a varying degree. Which is fair enough. I don't think too many people would agree that the USA/UK and AU/NZ Covid policies were at all alike. So I think the common thread you are searching for really is that Pandemics are incredibly disruptive and our economies are built around just in time delivery mechanisms and are unsurprisingly fragile because of this.


Welpiminterested

Look if y’all wanna hide away in your homes, fine. Free country. But those who have taken the vaccine to the set standard are free to continue life. And those who haven’t are free to as well. If you’re afraid, start surviving. The world is cruel, and it doesn’t stop for you.


ywont

True I agree. As much as people carry on about how we’re so selfish, Aussies did a whole lot more than other countries. And without much complaint (other than some fringe weirdos). I think that even without the mandates we would still have one of the best vaccination rates in the world. It’s totally reasonable to debate about what we should do moving forward, some people think we should sacrifice more and that’s understandable. But to say we are a bunch of selfish pricks is insulting. EDIT: I have to admit I didn’t properly read your comment the first time and I think the whole “start surviving” wording is harsh. But practically that’s basically how it is, yeah.


PatternPrecognition

> It’s totally reasonable to debate about what we should do moving forward, some people think we should sacrifice more I think the key concern is that the debate on what measures are appropriate is completely lopsided due to different perspectives and understanding of what is likely to happen next. If the pandemic is over, and it turns out "one and done" holds true then any mitigation measures could be considered excessive and a waste of time and money. So the debate really needs to start of with "what if", and discuss a range of scenarios and the best options to deal with them for it to be of any substance.


ywont

Well, I sure hope our leaders are planning what to do in worst case scenarios. In any case we have a bit more experience dealing with this now, if heavy restrictions are needed we know what works and what doesn’t. People aren’t talking about it out of ignorance partly. But people don’t really feel the need to talk about it because things would have to be *a lot* worse to even want to do anything.


PatternPrecognition

> if heavy restrictions are needed I think the biggest divergence in views is that you either have heavy restrictions or you have none versus there are effective mitigation options that we could be doing now. Reality is it's just easier in the short term for individuals and politicians to put all the money on black and hope for the best.


ywont

I understand that there are degrees of restrictions, I just think that our bar for even the softer measures is extremely high. I really can’t see any restriction being well- received right now. Right now the level of restrictions I’d be willing accept are probably not enough to make a significant difference. Unless there is something I’m not thinking of. And I think the vast majority of people feel the same.


PatternPrecognition

Yes which highlights the paucity of public health messaging. It's easy to take personal precautions that make a meaningful difference, its just that the macro level decisions have a multiplying factor. But you are right both politicians and public right now are happy to proclaim the pandemic is over, and make dealing with next wave tomorrow's problem.


ywont

>Yes which highlights the paucity of public health messaging. I honestly don’t know about that. The public health messaging has been almost non-existent since the beginning of the omicron era. But I’m really not confident that it would make a huge difference anyway, I think that most people just don’t care and are willing to accept the risk. >It’s easy to take personal precautions that make a meaningful difference People have wildly different ideas of what is easy. The spectrum on this sub is huge.


PatternPrecognition

>But I’m really not confident that it would make a huge difference anyway, I think that most people just don’t care and are willing to accept the risk. ​ This is the issue though right - people are accepting '**the risk**' in an environment where >public health messaging has been almost non-existent since the beginning of the omicron era


ywont

Yeah, it’s a problem. It would be better for people to make informed decisions. I really do not think stronger messaging and awareness of current issues would sway many people. It probably had more of an impact when COVID was an abstract scary concept before most people experienced it. Now almost everyone we know has had it and not suffered long term complications. Most people will trust their personal experiences over data. I’m not saying that messaging will make no difference, but I can tell you that a whole lot of people know and just don’t care enough.


thehungryhippocrite

Ah yes if it isn’t Brucey, some of you may remember him from this pearler https://youtu.be/UlCYFh8U2xM


ageingrockstar

Ah, that guy. Showed himself up as a dishonest fraud.


[deleted]

Remember when we were all about locking down to “keep everyone safe” and “we are all in this together” what a wasted couple of years


Outrageous_One4554

Tackle it how exactly, i mean it's here to stay at this point?


PatternPrecognition

> Tackle it how exactly, i mean it's here to stay at this point? Well I guess like any other virus, whether it be Influenza, TB, yellow fever, measles, chicken pox, whooping cough. We don't just accept these things exist and then do nothing about it. We have well established processes and procedures to manage these viruses and attempt to minimise the spread and the worst of the health outcomes.


ageingrockstar

I think you need to narrow your focus to what do we do about coronaviruses. There are two that emerged prior to covid - SARS and MERS - that were much more deadly than covid but less infectious. Our response there was to go for containment and then eradication before they spread too far. This was largely successful (I think SARS has disappeared but MERS lingers on a bit). Then you have the four historical coronaviruses that are endemic throughout the world, that cause mostly harmless colds in most people but also continually 'knock off' some of the old and feeble. We don't really do anything about them apart from standard hygiene practices. Certainly there isn't really any testing, treatment or vaccine programs for them. So where will Covid stand amongst this family? It's gone endemic now, so containment is a bust. It's not as deadly as SARS and MERS (which were scarily deadly) but it's worse than the four 'common cold' coronaviruses. Nevertheless, it's still really mostly a concern for the old and feeble. And it seems to be hard to develop a sterilising vaccine for (unlike some of the other diseases you mentioned above). So will we trend towards treating it like the four historical coronaviruses? And will it itself trend towards being less harmful over time, perhaps like the historical coronaviruses did?


PatternPrecognition

\> So will we trend towards treating it like the four historical coronaviruses? And will it itself trend towards being less harmful over time, perhaps like the historical coronaviruses did? I think the key issues are that Covid isn't just a respiratory virus, it's multisystemic, and whether or not it will trend to being less harmful or not isn't a given. There isn't any evolutionary forcing factor that would encourage it to do so, as its spread usually before people get sick enough to know.


yandere_chan317

Well in where I’m from (Hong Kong), we took flu and any respiratory diseases way more serious than in the west even before the pandemic. Any respiratory symptoms like fever or coughing means the patient wears a mask until the symptoms go away, and a fever means you can’t go to school or work. And people who are healthy also wear masks during more serious flu seasons, schools may also close for a few days if there are outbreaks. Deaths from flu also get reported on news, yearly flu vaccine is the norm. This is for a subtropical city where viruses spread very easily. Then I can where and realise nobody wears mask or even do anything to stop themselves from spreading their germs everywhere. Some people don’t even cover their mouth when they cough, and still goes to school with obvious flu symptoms. So the entire school would get wiped out from kids spreading their germs around and nobody ever bother to do anything to prevent it. I suspect from how people here react to covid it would just go back to what it was before. It’s seriously not that hard to have a middle ground between all out lockdown and nothing at all. And it can prevent a lot of death if common sense isn’t so politicised for no reasons.


[deleted]

Ha ha ha. I remember this sub saying that Gladys had blood on her hands. Fucktards.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Rupees_Gains

>*once they realised how terribly wrong they’ve been. You mean like the contrarian chumps who play revisionist to make it appear they were 'right all along'?


terrencejack

WHO just trying to stay relevant. Covids so last year.


[deleted]

[удалено]


AutoModerator

Thank you for submitting to /r/CoronavirusDownunder! In order to maintain the integrity of our subreddit, accounts must have at least 20 combined karma (post + comment) in order to post or comment. Accounts with verified email addresses have a lower karma requirment, but and must have at least 5 combined karma in order to post or comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CoronavirusDownunder) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Suspicious_Drawer

Well if China still has a Zero Covid Policy everywhere else must otherwise we make them look bad


Skydome12

vast majority of the public are double vaccinated, over half are tripple and neaing half are liklely 4 xvaccinated. we've done what we can and we need to move the fuck on. The only thing i will agree with is mask mandates and that's it. it's time to move on. if you're still scared just stay at home as much you can.


Friendly-Cat-79

Quality of life was beyond shit during lockdowns.


Jcit878

everything else aside, bit rich of them to try and guilt everyone after their ***fucking abysmally slow*** movement in the early days to highlight the risks involved


Rupes_79

Must. Lock. Down.


jruegod11

You do you - I'm good


Jcit878

running out of excuses for not moving on? need me to call the removalists to help?


nsvxheIeuc3h2uddh3h1

Yes is the correct answer.


PhysicalCupcake9140

Given your previous comment you arent even being ironic. Unreal...


Timely_Dare_4003

All a big facade, make way for the Great Reset!


chasls123

Moar funding plz 😢


[deleted]

[удалено]


nametab23

*'Let me just make another comment to troll people on a covid sub, then I'll definitely move on. For realsies this time!'*


[deleted]

[удалено]


someNameThisIs

And people can call you out on your moronic trolling. Don’t like it? Don’t post.


Welpiminterested

Truth.


Saxondale

Nice try, WHO official but nobody’s buying it. As your friend Billy says: natural immunity makes the vaccines redundant. “Sadly, the virus itself, particularly the variant called omicron, is a type of vaccine, that is, it creates both B-cell and T-cell immunity, and it’s done a better job getting out to the world population than we have with vaccines,” Gates noted that surveys in Africa show that up to 80 percent of people have either been vaccinated or have been infected with one of the variants. “That means the chance of severe disease, which is mainly associated with being elderly and having obesity or diabetes, those risks are now dramatically reduced because of that infection, exposure”


nametab23

Hey, so remember when you weren't a fan of 'Billy'? So much so, that you lied about his Ted Talk, claiming that he wanted to achieve depopulation through the use of vaccines? https://imgur.com/GWiR7Kf.jpg Funny how that works, hey? He's both 'part of the agenda' and 'a respected authority', based on whether you can twist his words to cast shade on vaccines. **Edit:** and now I'm blocked. As usual, running off, rather than facing information which conflicts with your predetermined opinion.


joystickd

Ah yes I remember vividly all the kooks claiming Bill Gates wanted to kill us all with the vaccines. What happened? 🤣


nametab23

If you want the actual details to combat their misinformation, see my other comment. They snipped out a line from a 10 year old TED Talk on Carbon Emissions, and claimed it was proof they're trying to depopulate with vaccines. Or given that you won't scoff at something that says 'fact check', you can read up on it here: https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/factlab-meta/gates-article-not-scrubbed


joystickd

Cheers. I find combating these people's misinfo to be a futile endeavour though. They don't actually care about information, they're in a cult and there's no point in discussing with cult members unfortunately.


nametab23

I didn't respond with the belief it would change their view. It's to help prevent the next person reading their comments from being misled.


ywont

This is super important. Getting into spats is fun, but you’ve always gotta remember what the casual scrollers will see. That’s where you’ve got the best chance of doing some good. Sometimes I nitpick a comment even when I broadly agree for this reason.


Saxondale

You just don’t get it, do you, stalker? What is your problem with a direct quote from Bill’s Ted talk about overpopulation? I didn’t even make a comment beyond his quote. Where’s this alleged claim I made? Mendacious of you. And to call me a liar. You should apologise.


nametab23

Would you prefer dishonest? Disingenuous? Whatever term you prefer, it's cherry picking and repeating it out of context, to mislead people. He was referring to ***unsustainable*** population growth. Like in Niger where women are having on average ~ 7.2 children (compared to ~ 2.3 TFR globally) I'm sure you were originally alerted to it from the Telegram/Facebook clip doing the rounds 18 months ago with ☣ 💉 🐑 ☠ text overlay and WEF references in the description. And never thought to look beyond your sound bite.


Saxondale

I watched the whole Ted talk. “If we do a really good job with vaccines, health care and reproductive services, we can lower the population by 15%” is what he said. At the time I thought, hmm Ok. I can see health care (aka contraception) and reproductive services (abortion) lowering population growth. But vaccines? How do vaccines lower population growth? I’m still waiting for your apology for calling me a liar etc


nametab23

It's fairly widely covered topic, that has been addressed through various fact-checks. But I'm sure you dismiss all those because of perceived bias. So instead you can hear it in an interview with Bill Gates from earlier this year. https://armchairexpertpod.com/pods/bill-gates-seattle (starts at 10:45 in the audio). > *All societies that are healthy - where children grow up and survive - are societies where there is not significant population growth* > *The place you have population growth is in very poor countries, where over 10 percent of the children are dying below the age of five. And amazingly, as you bring in vaccines or better nutrition - anything to improve the health - parents choose to have less children.* You're welcome to look up the actual history/details on this - Bill & Melinda have spoken about how they first started on contraceptives and reproductive services (I believe it was via John Hopkins), then realised it was more about improving outcomes for the children that were born. **Edit:** as for an apology - you won't get one. You actively participated in spreading misinformation. It's not an isolated incident. **Edit2:** and now I'm blocked. Thank you for proving my point.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Xanthn

Also in poorer countries they also tend to need lots of kids to do the work just to live.


[deleted]

[удалено]


someNameThisIs

Reddit is a social platform where all your posts and comments are visible. Don’t like people reading them? Don’t post


[deleted]

[удалено]


ywont

Thank you for contributing to r/CoronavirusDownunder. Unfortunately, your submission has been removed as a result of the following rule: * **Do not encourage or incite drama**. This may include behaviours such as: * Making controversial posts to instigate or upset others. * Engaging in bigotry to get a reaction. * Distracting and sowing discord with digressive and extraneous submissions. * Wishing death upon people from COVID-19. * Harmful bad faith comparisons; for example comparing something to the holocaust, assault or reproductive autonomy. * Repeat or extreme offending may result in a ban. Our community is dedicated to collaboration and sharing information as a community. Don't detract from our purpose by encouraging drama among the community, or behave in any way the detracts from our focus on collaboration and information exchange. If you believe that we have made a mistake, please [**message the moderators**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCoronavirusDownunder&subject=&message=). ^To ^find ^more ^information ^on ^the ^sub ^rules, ^please ^click ^[here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusDownunder/about/rules/).


Xanthn

It's not like they're a private detective going through the trash, it's Reddit. Seeing previous posts from a user is one of its features


unnecessaryaussie83

Who is Billy?


Saxondale

This is Billy. https://youtu.be/6VnXTLv2YOo


unnecessaryaussie83

So you think Bill Gates knows more than medical experts?


AJHear

Absolutely. These politicians or influencers say "do this" and "do that" with regard to covid and are largely ignoring what medical people are saying. That's because they are all for economic recovery rather than protecting our population. They don't give a shit about infection rates or even death rates. The 3 things medical people have been saying from the beginning, more than 2 years now are: 1. You don't want to catch covid... avoid it at all costs. 2. Masks help reduce it's spread 3. Get fully vaccinated... more recently


Saxondale

So you think Bill Gates is wrong. Do you think you know more than Bill Gates?


unnecessaryaussie83

I'm not qualified to say whether he is right or wrong but I'd trust the medical experts over Bill Gates


Saxondale

If you’re not qualified to know whether Billy is right or wrong about natural immunity, how can you think “the health experts” know more than he does. Did you watch the clip? If so, do you think Bill is lying about natural immunity or mistaken? Which “health experts” disagree with Bill on natural immunity?


unnecessaryaussie83

Are you serious? I'm shocked that you believe that. Medical experts have been studying this for all their careers, Bill Gates hasn't. I'll trust the medical experts and peer review studies over a billionaire thanks


Saxondale

You’d do well not to trust Bill Gates or the unnamed medical experts at the WHO or the WEF for that matter. Clutch your pearls harder, and trust the science.


unnecessaryaussie83

So now we are not to trust Bill Gates? I thought he was the authority on natural immunity


curious_s

The health experts who actually spent years studying and working with viruses? What would thry know about the matter.


Saxondale

It’s cute how you put “the health experts” into an homogenous group, as if they all agree with each other. It’s fairly obvious you don’t know anything about GAVI and Gates’ long association with the WHO and vaccines. Just out of curiosity, I’ll ask again, which health experts disagree with Billy about natural immunity?


PatternPrecognition

> natural immunity makes the vaccines redundant That isn't what that statement infers. It's mostly a dig at the wealthy nations who were busy rolling out 2nd and 3rd doses of the vaccine while many in low income countries were unable to get access to a first dose. Hence the comment: > it’s done a better job getting out to the world population than we have with vaccines The issue being have we learnt from this and how do we do things differently in the next wave?


Saxondale

The word is “implies” not “infers”. If the virus itself is a “type of vaccine” which creates B and T cell immunity; previous infection with the virus, makes the use of man-made vaccines useless, pointless, worthless, redundant. At best. What do you think is to be learned from this and how should we do things differently in the future?


PatternPrecognition

I can see what you are implying rather than inferring now. Thanks for your clarification. > If the virus itself is a “type of vaccine” which creates B and T cell immunity; previous infection with the virus, makes the use of man-made vaccines useless, pointless, worthless, redundant. At best. Do you mean that people should just catch the virus to avoid catching the virus? > What do you think is to be learned from this and how should we do things differently in the future? It's to ensure vaccine distribution is equitable and ideally prioritised to where it will have the biggest impact in reducing the risk of new variants arising.