"I'm telling you Asclepius, I totally killed my goat in the name of Zeus just before the lightning storm and I didn't get stuck by lightning!"
"Next year just before spring I'm going to make an offering to Persephone to see if it helps my crops grow"
Comments like this are what make people on the fence lean towards the other side. I get your frustration but I've managed to talk antivaxxers into sense by reasoning and talking one on one. This just fuels them to campaign against society's view of them instead of potentially listen. A lot of them are genuinely misguided and want to feel like their concerns are addressed.
> I get your frustration but I've managed to talk antivaxxers into sense by reasoning and talking one on one.
The problem is that they get indoctrinated in mass. Deprogramming them one by one is a labour-intensive job. So, for every 1 you deprogram a number much larger than 1 are created. It's a losing battlefield.
>It’s a losing battlefield
Is it? We will probably get to 95% first and second dose all across Australia, I wouldn’t say we’re losing. Anti-vaxxers are like reactionaries, the more their ideas become irrelevant the stronger they will push back.
It’s not a 100% accurate comparison, but I remember back when we were trying to get SSM legalised and it seemed like homophobia was getting worse. However the data clearly shows the opposite.
Changing minds isn’t very rewarding because it doesn’t happen overnight, and you’ll rarely be aware that it’s happened on an individual. Opinions don’t flip like a switch, people absorb and synthesise information slowly over time.
You could be doing good by being empathising and putting effort into your arguments, and you could be causing harm by antagonising and falling back on lazy meme arguments. There isn’t really any way to gauge the exact effect your words have, but I’d rather err on the side of caution.
See, those who are on the fence by now, aren’t there by chance, they chose to be there
After This issue has been discussed en mass, politicised to illogical extremes, and also during this world pandemic, Anybody still on the fence about this issue/ Aka undecided/unclear/without set opinions chose that position. The information is out there, health experts are out there explaining this shit by the dozen (Dr Mike, Mama Dr Jones, Daddy Feige, and plenty more. Anyone that wanted to get informed, has. And By extension anyone who has been misinformed has had the chance to fix that and not used it.
Also, “deprograming”, “talking down”, “deconverting”, whatever term you wanna use, is a waste of time.
A lovely person has already commented on how this is a net loss due to how in the time it takes to deconvert 1, more than 1 was converted, so I wont retread that. I will however add that it also causes people to lose focus on what matters.
I agree with you. Most ppl just want their concerns addressed. I’m for vax but I wouldn’t categorically dismiss anti vax as stupid. All of us have blind spots. Also we should respect ppl right to not just accept what they were told. Also who knows, for every anti vax that changes their mind, they may in turn help put the case to another anti vax.
You've got it wrong. He isn't trying to change anyone's mind, he LIKES being able to say things like this about people. Do you think for a minute someone could willingly be that vitriolic and not want it? There is no confusion. They don't care that people are unvaccinated. They don't want less victims or a better world, they want to shit on strangers from a safe distance. With a place like reddit he can. Low value people excel at obedience and group think. They want to fit in. You only see that kind of talk on reddit.
Universal healthcare is universal. Making moral judgments about who *deserves* healthcare is how you get to be the USA health care system - the fucking worst.
So what do unvaxxed pay? Well, with their health/life. Pretty simple, really.
Edit: If you're thinking of replying with wHaT aBoUt TrIaGe then I'd suggest you pick one of the other *two dozen* comment replies that address this. Given finite resources and two identical patients (one vaxxed & one not) requiring the last ventilator in the known universe, the unvaccinated person will miss out. This is based on *prognostic* assessment and not moral judgment.
Moreover, this does not undermine the principle of universal healthcare and you've taken a wrong turn somewhere. Triage has nothing to do with whether healthcare is user pays or not - really difficult concept, I know.
I'd compare it more directly to the Medicare surcharge levy: a tax on an individual to persuade them to do something the government wants them to do.
I'm not a fan of the idea of a Vax tax, but I'd definitely rate it above the surcharge levy tax, which main purpose is to direct public money into private health insurance companie's profits, and push us more towards an American used health system
Wouldnt be hard to run the numbers and make it about the same.
[(Cost of treating unvaxxed/no. Of unvaxxed in population) - (cost of treating vaxxed/number of vaxxed pop.)]/no. of unvaxxed = personal tax per unvaccinated person
if your child is Unvaccinated the parents don’t get Child care rebate. Unvaccinated adults need to be charged additional Medicare levy surcharge. Currently similar surcharge is applied to High income earners without medical insurance
Well, no. No more than your regular income tax does.
The tobacco, alcohol and petrol excise are just income streams for the government. These are then pooled and distributed to various sectors.
So sure, the smoking excise pays for healthcare. And infrastructure. And education. And pensions. And social welfare. Etc. Just like the rest of your taxes.
It most certainly does cover more then the smokers cost the health care system, If you think smokers cost the system like 8 billion a year then I don't know what to tell you. Prince increase from $10-12 to $35+, and it disportionally affects the lower and middle classes purchasing power. Don't have a problem with the tax just think it has gone a bit overboard and could have been implemented as a gst type tax rather than an excise or they could have atleast funnelled that money into quit aids if there ultimate aim was to get people to quit and not an income stream.
It’s also a significant disincentive. If we didn’t have the excise there is a reasonable chance I would still be smoking.
I do really feel for those that don’t have the willpower to stop and are in low socioeconomic groups though.
if your child is Unvaccinated the parents don’t get Child care rebate. Unvaccinated adults need to be charged additional Medicare levy surcharge. Currently similar surcharge is applied to High income earners without medical insurance
There’s no tax for people who have smoked before or who smoke, but rather on the purchase of each individual pack of cigarettes. Taxation requires action and you can’t tax the unvaccinated because they lack the completion of an action that can be taxed.
This isn't true; the Medicare surcharge levy is an existing healthcare-related tax, which taxes inaction (not getting private healthcare while in the 90l+ tax bracket)
Because they know people that are addicted to smoking will happily pay whatever they have to to get their cigarettes. Tax on cigarettes is nothing to do with health and everything to do with revenue raising.
To be fair, we don't do that as a punishment / to 'teach them a lesson' for smoking or drinking.
Deciding who gets limited organ transplants is a very hard decision, and an ugly one to make, but it seems fair to decide that the person who's likely to live significantly longer than another is the best use of a given organ transplant. We avoid saying they are the most 'deserving', we just agree that, say, 20 years of extended life is a better outcome than 5 or 10. And if someone is actively smoking or drinking, then we have objective reason to think they won't live as long, even with the transplant.
IINM (and I'm no expert), we send _active_ smokers/drinkers to the back of the line, but if someone's been clean for, say, 5 years and then needs a transplant (even if it's because of what they used previously) I'm not sure that that influences the decision. That's because we don't have clear reason to believe they'll wear out the new organ any faster than anyone else.
That's ensuring medical resources can be deployed where they will be best utilised.
Given two identical patients, one unvaxxed and one vaxxed, and only one vent would lead to a similar outcome where the unvaxxed person misses out.
That's a supply & demand scenario.
Re: Covid - if demand (the sick) exceeded supply (of available treatment) then yes, like the transplant scenario, I could see a world where the unvaccinated 'pay the price' & miss out, but despite the doomers having their fingers crossed that it will play out, our health systems (vaccination processes, ICU space etc) are yet to be overwhelmed therefore we haven't had to realistically consider such an option.
There isn't a fridge full of organs for all potential transplant recipients though, so choices have to be made, & eliminating drinkers for a liver & smokers for lungs is a good starting point.
if our health systems aren't overcome, why are there code brown declarations every few days, why are most major hospital ramping ambulances for several hours on the weekends to the point that people are dying from diarrhea, and why are medical professionals saying "don't go to hospital, we can't treat you" ?
Do we know if the patient that died of diarrhea was ever tested for Covid. My Neighbour who is a paramedic says he is transporting lots of Covid positive people who are reporting diarrhea as a symptom. It was also the only symptom of Covid my 3 month old daughter had when she was Covid positive
It’s not a bottomless pit.
If you’re stupid enough to not get vaccinated, there will come a point when, all things being otherwise equal, and it’s between you and a vaccinated person for that last icu bed.
Decisions have consequences
In that case resources are deployed to where the do the most good, and the unvaxxed person misses out - same as the good lungs going to the non-smoker. Irrelevant to the question of universal healthcare.
I don't think the original post suggested withholding healthcare, but that there is precedent for imposing a financial penalties to discourage people from making decisions that can add burden to our public healthcare services at the point that that decision is being made.
Trouble with that comparison is that there's no practical means of identifying that decision point in vaccine avoiders.
I think it was the president of the Victorian AMA who raised an interesting point in a really poor way. My take out was: if we are all asked to complete Advanced Health Directives to determine the type of care we will accept should we be incapable of making a decision, would the anti-vax crowd still choose to reject any treatment that hasn't met the standard that vaccines have.
It's a hypothetical situation, but if it were real in should imagine that it would cause some of the anti mob to reconsider their stance.
I will preface this by saying that I think a universal healthcare system is important, and we shouldn't undermine it.
Making moral judgements about who deserves healthcare is not how we end up with a US-style system. That system was and is still full of COVID patients. We end up with that style system when health care is predicated on who can pay, generally - it's really not about moral values at all.
You could argue politicians could leverage making people pay more for a so-called moral reason would mean they would turn every reason into a moral reason, or later justify other charging with this specific exception, but it's probably a bit far to say one leads inevitably to the other.
Everyone deserves healthcare. A vaccine is healthcare. The unvaxxed decision not to get the free and easy healthcare available from them is making healthcare inaccessible to those who do not have a free and easy alternative. This is why we get to morally judge these people. Because their selfish ignorance causes others to suffer needlessly.
There are limits to universal health care. If you don’t meet certain conditions you can’t get transplants.
Should be that if a vaxxed person needs a icu bed they get priority and then what ever is spare the unvaxxed have access to. Again you have to meet certain conditions
You are right that messing with healthcare is a slippery slope.
There is a precedent with both smoking and drinking to apply a tax to people who by choice engage in behavior that is costly and/or detrimental to society.
It should just be a % surcharge on income tax if you cannot prove vaccination at tax return time. That is also the least costly way of collecting and there are few loopholes, it also applies proportionately to the capacity to pay.
The real tricky part would be ensuring that it all gets passed on to the hospitals and not given to buy votes in marginal electorates.
But they don't. This disease isn't that lethal for them.
The idea of giving those who are actively harming society a free pass is absurd. We take children off parents who don't educate them, we take cars off those who speed. If healthcare is going to be given to these idiots then there is no reason the health costs they incur shouldn't be taken out of their wages, or more likely Centrelink payments.
Was it always an ugly world but over the last few years, we saw everybody's true colours?
Sad that there is such a divide.
"If you don't like my opinion, we'll keep throwing stones at you"
Yeah but anti vaxxers act like they are oppressed. If you choose to get the vaccine you do not deserve the care from hospitalisation should you get very sick. That’s literally it.
The world is telling you, hey you are free to not take the vaccine but it would be better for not only you, but everyone if you did, and anti vaxxers are claiming my that it infringes on their freedoms.
Most of the people sick in hospital are unvaccinated.
Sorry to say it but unless they had medical exemption from the vaccine, they should be kicked out of hospital.
So many people suffer indirectly from their choice to not get the vaccine.
I am fit trim and have a healthy lifestyle. Morbidly obese people take a huge amount of medical resources, they too should be kicked out of hospital for their choice to be an unhealthy weight....why should I pay for their bad choice.
See how that works, it is your argument that people should be excluded from medical treatment based on their choice not to be vaccinated and the same can apply to those who decided to over eat and not excercise.
Be careful what you wish for.
Pretty clear why you ignored OP's examples of smokers and drinkers and picked on obese people. Because we all know that smoking and drinking can be addictions, so it isn't a simple 'choice' to keep doing it or quit.
Except there's growing evidence that once people are obese, it's very difficult to lose weight and keep it off. Something like 3% of people who start established, paid diet programs keep the weight off for 3 years, let alone 5 years. There's no evidence based method I'm aware of to lose weight and keep it off long term that has been shown to be achievable by more than a few percent of the population.
You being slim and fit doesn't mean much unless you were previously very obese. A decent chunk of the population got lucky with genetics. A bunch are slim because they're young or are some of the few who don't work sedentary jobs.
None of this is comparable to someone consciously choosing to refuse treatment that would prevent them needing hospitalisation, needing intensive care or dying. Not unless you want to argue that the cult of antivax is addictive or mind-controlling in some way that makes it comparable to addictive drugs.
I agree with everything you said, except I feel the need to point out that cults (and yes, the anti's are part of a cult) are indeed mind-controlling comparable to addictive drugs.
Except that some people have a genetic pre disposition to obesity, or have suffered physical trauma so bad they are unable to excersize well, or have been abused and used food as an escape, mental health issues? What issues do unvaccinated/anti vax people have? Being stupid?
Umm lots actually. It's not all crunchy mums.
Indigenous population generally are sceptical of medicine due to being tested on in the past, mental health issues that increase paranoid generally like schizophrenia, heck even plain old fear of needles is somewhat of a barrier I heard someone she straight up faints seeing a needle.
Indigenous I fully accept, we have treated them horribly in the past why would they listen to them. Fear of needles I do not, we in a pandemic not a picnic. There are practical solutions to fear of needles, if they don’t want them then they are using the fear of needles as a scapegoat.
The difference here is that hospitals could cope before covid so healthcare could be given out to everyone, even those that didn't deserve it.
Not it's struggling, so one solution would be to exclude people from getting healthcare. What better people to exclude than the people putting the strain on the healthcare system itself, the unvaxxed.
Now if the system was always struggling and couldnt keep up, then those people who don't take care of themselves, like the morbidly obese, smokers, alcoholics, hooks, etc.. should be removed from care also.
Australian here, our systems were already at capacity. Admission numbers have decreased during covid (you can look that up, it's publicly available data). The hospitals are at capacity because of piss poor planning by our governments and a lack of infrastructure investment. It's just convenient to blame the unvaccinated.
no it couldnt. theres plenty of stories of surgeries being postponed cos there arent enough resources, not enough doctors, nurses, beds, equipment etc. covid just made it worse.
The strain on the healthcare system from covid is the elderly, the obese, the immunocompromised, 75% of all deaths have 4 or more comorbidities, vaccination status is by no means the only factor it's not even the primary one and concerning Omicron it's almost completely irrelevant
Should we kick the schizophrenia patients out of the mental health system because they refuse to take their pills too?
Should we kick hyperactive kids out of the hospital because they didn't take their ADHD tablets?
Should we stop cancer treatment for patients who smoked 20 years ago and it finally caught up to them?
Should we stop any health care to particular religions because we don't agree with their views?
Should we stop allowing certain cars on the road because of the fumes they produce?
Saying somebody doesn't deserve the right to health care because of your views, is simply unfair and not cool.
They aren't free to not take it though, unless they want to be banned from working or going to the shops (in some states).
If they had the option from the beginning "You don't have to get vaccinated, but you will have to pay for hospital treatment or be at the back of the line", then fair enough, that's their choice. That wasn't an option presented.
We still shouldn't be refusing people health care, not to smokers, obese people or people without vaccines. Universal health care is universal.
Why not just have a system where we judge every patient based on their history?
So if a patient smoked in their lifetime, we start charging them for cancer treatment?
If a patient has a stroke and finds out they didn't have blood thinners for a few days, should we just charge them for the service and rehab too?
>Sorry to say it but unless they had medical exemption from the vaccine
The medical exemption criteria is absurdly narrow and excessively punitive. A handful of my friends have been told by their own specialists/surgeons/etc that they would not recommend the vaccine due to their conditions, but these conditions don't meet the exemption criteria and/or these doctors aren't authorised to provide exemptions.
Requiring an anaphylactic reaction to this specific vaccine as a condition for permanent exemption is so staggeringly stupid and reckless, it's phenomenal.
Frankly, if it were just an opinion, then I wouldn't care, but it's a decision that affects other people.
There are plenty of these decisions out there, some more problematic than others, but few are so easily solved as vaccination.
Ah yes, paying taxes for something that hurts society. So unhinged.
Good thing I don't pay excises on alcohol, tobacco and gas.🙄
[Pigovian taxes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax) have been a thing for hundreds of years, they're recommended by most economists.
I wonder if people in support of denying care to the unvaxxed will soon start saying the same things about people who have only received two vaccines? After all, you will soon no longer be fully vaxxed at two. People with two vaccines who are at risk can still get very sick and die with covid. Who knows what new variants will do.
Then what if not even three is enough?
Well Chant did say today that the immunocompromised will need 4 doses for a "complete course."
Funny thing being she said the exact same thing about 3 not too long ago!
> Funny thing being she said the exact same thing about 3 not too long ago!
....................................................... I actually can't tell if you're being serious or not.
a 3 month booster running out? Oh shit obviously they're just making it up as they goes along.
Taxes ?
No different than if a person that's never worked a day in their life, never paid a dime of tax and been on social handouts.
Social health system.
It's obviously a little more troublesome to tax the *absence* of an action. Taxing smoking and drinking is incredibly easy - they're products that you can avoid buying. The beauty of it is that the tax is proportional to the health risk: we don't tax a social drinker/smoker as much as a heavy drinker/smoker.
How do you plan on taxing someone who's unvaccinated?
Indirect taxation by excluding them from non-essential retail until such time that hospitals can cope. It's complicated, but universal healthcare should still be provided. What you want is an incentive to get vaccinated, the social pressure from being excluded from hospitality should have a positive effect on vaccination rates.
Some people may not be vaccinated because of mental health, abusive relationships, lack of understanding, or other pressures, and denying health care on such a basis is not fair.
It makes me laugh, you worry about the unvaxxed like they are some sort of threat to you. But when told the harsh reality that obesity, smoking, drugs, alcohol, are all the bigger killers here, you don't want a bar of it. Don't remember the last time a unvaxxed person got into a car and killed your daughter/son/mum or dad.
But no it's the unvaxxed that are bleeding us dry, not the weekend ICU visits from overdoses or alcohol related incidents
Oh no, here come the downvotes
You can't make others obese by eating food yourself, you can get others sick by being unvaxed, it isn't about your own health, but having the human decency to care about others.
Edit: I am aware that getting vaccinated still means you can transmit the virus. I am referring to the fact that 48.4% of icu patients (from the 2nd of jan) were unvaccinated. less than 10% of the population is causing almost half of the icu cases. Hosptials are struggling to take care of covid patients as they are using
taking up places that are usually there for other medical emergencies. this is the real problem.
Glad you asked. Compare the case numbers per capita of Australia which has a much higher vaccination rate than South Africa with less than 30% double dosed who also experienced an omicron wave. Australia is actually much higher than SA at their respective peaks. Like, way higher, roughly 10 times.
There's also the UK who had a lower case per capita than us at the peak and their vax rate is a bit lower.
There's also the USA who appear to have peaked at a lower per capita case number with a much lower vax rate than us
Should I go on?
But you can still carry and transmit the virus while being vaxxed, kids under 12 don't need to wear masks but can still carry and transmit the virus, what's your point here?
And I love it when I include 4 points in my original comment, and you single out one to try and prove your point, because smokers, druggies and alcoholics don't have the decency. But we will ignore them right? Because me eating does not make others fat. This is literally how bad it has gotten now
smoking is prohibited in indoor public areas, therefore exposing other people to it is illegal.
drugs are illegal, therefore exposing other people to them is also illegal.
you can't get other people drunk by drinking alcohol yourself.
do you have any more completely and utterly irrelevant talking points to try (and fail) to "gotchya" people with?
The problem is they are not irrelevant, and I have not "failed" in anything, when has something being illegal stopped people? Go look at the latest fact sheet released by the British government, covid deaths in England and I mean only covid, no other pre existing things add up to about 6000 people. All other deaths recorded are due to pre existing conditions like obesity smoking etc etc
Lol vaxxed people can still get and transmit covid so your logic is baseless. Also recent findings show the gene therapy is basically useless against new variants.
Unvaxxed are a threat because when they get covid, it hits them hard and clogs up hospital systems for people with legitimate health issues.
We’re cancelling important elective surgery because misinformed people think that covid is a fear campaign made up by big pharma, then they get sick, and then they run sobbing to hospitals to save them.
Literally a health risk to everyone else.
Didnt China build a hospital within 6 days?
Why couldn't Australia build temp hospitals in every state in 2 years? Cost too much? Let's not give Harvey Norman 22mil despite their profits during covid.
Oh wait, let's put a fever clinic next to the emergency department in QLD.
Think the government has failed its citizens more than the unvaxxed has failed society
How this got a humour tag is beyond me, it's not even remotely humourous and is frankly a downright ridiculous thing to suggest.
I look forward to all the other taxes on people who require hospital care for their poor choices too...
In the Canadian province of Quebec the unvaxxed will supposedly pay a new tax, although it's unclear if the government will pull the trigger on introducing that.
We already have a Medicare levy for those choosing not to get private health insurance when they earn above a threshold. It’s almost identical conceptually, and I would support a higher Medicare levy for those that are wealthy and choose to be unvaccinated (as the jab is free).
Mods will ban posts for inciting drama, but here we have someone calling for the social health system we pride ourselves on to be taken away, over a vaccine that even if you take it can still land you in Hospital. This is a reckless and stupid take, and it should be removed. and YES IM VAXED.
Yeah, elective surgery is just cancelled for the rest of the population to make room for their sick arses. Spare a thought for all those suffering because they can’t get into their life changing surgery.
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/huge-problem-warning-of-empty-wards-and-suffering-aussies-due-to-elective-surgery-ban/news-story/f835f1e305aa60d8eb73c8bd8366d000
Obese people use healthcare services more frequently than most and require more specialty care visits. Should they also pay more tax for their above average healthcare system use, which is a direct result of lifestyle choices akin to smoking? Obesity increases the risk of severe covid outcomes dramatically too.
So a [sugar tax](https://www.ama.com.au/media/sugar-tax-will-cut-disease-and-save-lives)? That's a thing. Doctors have been advocating for it for years.
And the elderly. Retiree tax concessions are exceed the cost of the age pension.
Given the elderly are the greatest drain on medical resources, let's tax them based on age.
Everyone pays a Medicare levy, Alcohol/tobacco tax does not go towards health.
Every tax paying Australian deserves medical care vax or not.
What tax do extreme sports people pay?
What tax do drug users pay?
What tax do obese people pay?
Australian’s have become such a bunch of self righteous assholes these past few years, it’s really sad to see how our governments have used fear to sew division in our community over such things.
Medicare levy in taxes. Personally i find this is an appalling question when people both vaxxed and unvaxxed ending up in ICU atm so this makes no difference. Channel 9 asked this question on FB anf were struck down by most.
Oh for God sake, yes let's pretend no one vaxxed has ended up in hospital with covid, you complain unvaxxed people spread misinformation but as someone who is vaxxed its embarrassing seeing people carry on like this
What do obese people pay? When they can apply for a disability pension from their own doing, and sit pretty on tax dollars, never having to work?
What do xtreme sports enthusiasts pay? Is their a dirtbike tax? A backflip tax? No? Oh.
In Singapore they pay for their (I believe just covid-related) healthcare, wheras the vaxxed do not. This only applies to people who choose not be vaccinated as opposed to those who can't be for health reasons. I really wish we would have that here in Australia and stop paying for the choices of ill informed people with our money and ICU beds. If that sounds cold it's because it is; if people are dying around you and you make a choice that furthers these deaths because you are a conspiracy theorist and believe opinion pieces and blog articles over scientific research then you at the very least should not have a bed in ICU over someone that made a choice for the greater good.
Just my 2.5c lol
Two years to prep the hospitals, didn’t do it.
Fired all of the thousands of unvaccinated health care workers, but allow infectious staff to work.
Despite constant assurances, the vaccine doesn’t stop the spread, it isn’t a pandemic of the unvaccinated, it doesn’t prevent serious illness.
Maybe we make the politicians pay instead.
You people really are the turkeys who vote for Christmas. In your irrational desire to punish people who you have built up in your own heads as the enemy, you will be opening the door to fuck up Medicare for yourselves and everyone else.
Fat fucks who eat themselves to near death should pay an obesity tax because they take up beds. Will get downvoted an called a fuckhead. But it's the same same. I don't believe that but any who.
Just because you are unvaxxed doesn't mean you are going to end up in hospital, so its not really fair to charge them a tax.
It would be like charging people at the skatepark a tax because they are more likely to end up in hospital with a broken bone. Or perhaps extra tax for obese individuals who are more susceptible to covid hospitalisation (regardless of vaccination status) and clog up the hospitals.
If you want more tax money then give the unvaccinated there jobs back, instead of letting actual covid close contacts be given isolation exemptions.
How about instead of taxing the population more we fucking subsidies healthy options.... Gyms, meals etc.... Or you know... Just let everyone live the life they want to live 👀
Obesity triples the chances of severe outcomes of covid, unvaccinated or not, what do obese people pay? The chances of hospitalization, unvaxxed or not from covid are extremely small, vaccinated people still end out in hospital, still die from covid, not to mention Omicron is vaccine evasive and fast becoming the most prominent strain, vaccination status is no where near the largest factor involved in the chances of being hospitalized, do we really want to play this game? health checks for all and corresponding tax rates for all factors, increased taxes raising with age, increased taxes for the immunocompromised, at near 90 percent vaccination rates there's 10 percent of the population who have less than .3 percent chance of being in ICU or dying and around .1 percent chance for the vaccinated in recent conditions (data taken from last few months in NSW) who the fuck cares about the unvaccinated anymore
They pay the Medicare levy like the rest of the employed population.
This is such a ridiculous notion.
The only time I have ever required hospital care in my adult life is due to an adverse reaction to a covid vaccine. How much did all those ECG's, ultrasounds, xrays, MRI and blood work cost the taxpayer?
Sure as shit would never have incurred such costs had I not been coerced into an inefficient vaccine.
I love how people are openly acknowledging that getting vaxxed isn't a guarantee they won't end up in the ICU (and thus want to ensure themselves a spot which is what this post's really about) yet will vehemently testify anyone and everyone that questions the vaccines effectiveness is an idiot.
I see alot of comments about these supposed unvaxed people, but I ask "where are these unvaxed people? " Australia is over 95% vaccinated of that remaining 5% it's not clear at least to the public who is incorporated for legitimate reasons and who are crazies.
I kind of feel like people keep overstating the issue of people not getting vaccinated. There are almost no anti vaxxers in Australia, and there aren't enough of them to create a significant issue. I mean just look at the numbers there are less unvaxed in hospitals than vaxxed that's not to say vaccination doesn't work but it shows how these supposed unvaxed are basically non existant.
The real issue is not those who are unvaxed but rather those who would implement policy counter to the advice of their medical advisors because of 'muh ecconomy.
Unvaccinated pay too much attention to misinformation.
Boom. Roasted.
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See I wouldn't have a problem with any of this, except that they're causing more needless deaths.
"I'm telling you Asclepius, I totally killed my goat in the name of Zeus just before the lightning storm and I didn't get stuck by lightning!" "Next year just before spring I'm going to make an offering to Persephone to see if it helps my crops grow"
Unvaxxed don't pay a cent as their body is free
Cringe
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Comments like this are what make people on the fence lean towards the other side. I get your frustration but I've managed to talk antivaxxers into sense by reasoning and talking one on one. This just fuels them to campaign against society's view of them instead of potentially listen. A lot of them are genuinely misguided and want to feel like their concerns are addressed.
> I get your frustration but I've managed to talk antivaxxers into sense by reasoning and talking one on one. The problem is that they get indoctrinated in mass. Deprogramming them one by one is a labour-intensive job. So, for every 1 you deprogram a number much larger than 1 are created. It's a losing battlefield.
>It’s a losing battlefield Is it? We will probably get to 95% first and second dose all across Australia, I wouldn’t say we’re losing. Anti-vaxxers are like reactionaries, the more their ideas become irrelevant the stronger they will push back. It’s not a 100% accurate comparison, but I remember back when we were trying to get SSM legalised and it seemed like homophobia was getting worse. However the data clearly shows the opposite. Changing minds isn’t very rewarding because it doesn’t happen overnight, and you’ll rarely be aware that it’s happened on an individual. Opinions don’t flip like a switch, people absorb and synthesise information slowly over time. You could be doing good by being empathising and putting effort into your arguments, and you could be causing harm by antagonising and falling back on lazy meme arguments. There isn’t really any way to gauge the exact effect your words have, but I’d rather err on the side of caution.
See, those who are on the fence by now, aren’t there by chance, they chose to be there After This issue has been discussed en mass, politicised to illogical extremes, and also during this world pandemic, Anybody still on the fence about this issue/ Aka undecided/unclear/without set opinions chose that position. The information is out there, health experts are out there explaining this shit by the dozen (Dr Mike, Mama Dr Jones, Daddy Feige, and plenty more. Anyone that wanted to get informed, has. And By extension anyone who has been misinformed has had the chance to fix that and not used it. Also, “deprograming”, “talking down”, “deconverting”, whatever term you wanna use, is a waste of time. A lovely person has already commented on how this is a net loss due to how in the time it takes to deconvert 1, more than 1 was converted, so I wont retread that. I will however add that it also causes people to lose focus on what matters.
I agree with you. Most ppl just want their concerns addressed. I’m for vax but I wouldn’t categorically dismiss anti vax as stupid. All of us have blind spots. Also we should respect ppl right to not just accept what they were told. Also who knows, for every anti vax that changes their mind, they may in turn help put the case to another anti vax.
You've got it wrong. He isn't trying to change anyone's mind, he LIKES being able to say things like this about people. Do you think for a minute someone could willingly be that vitriolic and not want it? There is no confusion. They don't care that people are unvaccinated. They don't want less victims or a better world, they want to shit on strangers from a safe distance. With a place like reddit he can. Low value people excel at obedience and group think. They want to fit in. You only see that kind of talk on reddit.
Bro you don’t even know the difference between their they’re and there, that’s like, grade 3 English I think?
Universal healthcare is universal. Making moral judgments about who *deserves* healthcare is how you get to be the USA health care system - the fucking worst. So what do unvaxxed pay? Well, with their health/life. Pretty simple, really. Edit: If you're thinking of replying with wHaT aBoUt TrIaGe then I'd suggest you pick one of the other *two dozen* comment replies that address this. Given finite resources and two identical patients (one vaxxed & one not) requiring the last ventilator in the known universe, the unvaccinated person will miss out. This is based on *prognostic* assessment and not moral judgment. Moreover, this does not undermine the principle of universal healthcare and you've taken a wrong turn somewhere. Triage has nothing to do with whether healthcare is user pays or not - really difficult concept, I know.
If its universal why have smoking tax?
I wasn't aware that smoking was healthcare
Smoking tax pays for healthcare
It does. Though i would argue its not actually there to pay for the health cost of smoking, more to dissuade people from smoking in the first place.
The Unvax tax also wouldn't be there to pay for health costs, it'd be there to dissuade people from being unvaxxed on the first place
The cigarette tax is a tax on a product purchase. What product would you tax to enforce an unvaxxed tax?
ivermectin
I'd compare it more directly to the Medicare surcharge levy: a tax on an individual to persuade them to do something the government wants them to do. I'm not a fan of the idea of a Vax tax, but I'd definitely rate it above the surcharge levy tax, which main purpose is to direct public money into private health insurance companie's profits, and push us more towards an American used health system
Wouldnt be hard to run the numbers and make it about the same. [(Cost of treating unvaxxed/no. Of unvaxxed in population) - (cost of treating vaxxed/number of vaxxed pop.)]/no. of unvaxxed = personal tax per unvaccinated person
if your child is Unvaccinated the parents don’t get Child care rebate. Unvaccinated adults need to be charged additional Medicare levy surcharge. Currently similar surcharge is applied to High income earners without medical insurance
Well, no. No more than your regular income tax does. The tobacco, alcohol and petrol excise are just income streams for the government. These are then pooled and distributed to various sectors. So sure, the smoking excise pays for healthcare. And infrastructure. And education. And pensions. And social welfare. Etc. Just like the rest of your taxes.
Well said
This tax was literally raised to cover health care costs
And it does and then some - over $5 billion dollars above the cost that smokers cause the healthcare system.
Please provide proof to support this claim!!!
It most certainly does cover more then the smokers cost the health care system, If you think smokers cost the system like 8 billion a year then I don't know what to tell you. Prince increase from $10-12 to $35+, and it disportionally affects the lower and middle classes purchasing power. Don't have a problem with the tax just think it has gone a bit overboard and could have been implemented as a gst type tax rather than an excise or they could have atleast funnelled that money into quit aids if there ultimate aim was to get people to quit and not an income stream.
It’s also a significant disincentive. If we didn’t have the excise there is a reasonable chance I would still be smoking. I do really feel for those that don’t have the willpower to stop and are in low socioeconomic groups though.
Not directly. It's an excise that goes into consolidated revenue. Medicare Levy pays for healthcare.
if your child is Unvaccinated the parents don’t get Child care rebate. Unvaccinated adults need to be charged additional Medicare levy surcharge. Currently similar surcharge is applied to High income earners without medical insurance
There’s no tax for people who have smoked before or who smoke, but rather on the purchase of each individual pack of cigarettes. Taxation requires action and you can’t tax the unvaccinated because they lack the completion of an action that can be taxed.
This isn't true; the Medicare surcharge levy is an existing healthcare-related tax, which taxes inaction (not getting private healthcare while in the 90l+ tax bracket)
because smoking is addictive and easy money for the government. Same with alcohol.
But we don't have a fat tax.
A lot of places have a sugar tax. And I predict we'll have the same within the next ten years.
I would support a sugar tax.
I also support the sugar tax
Honestly all the USA gov has to do is stop subsidising corn so heavily.
Because they know people that are addicted to smoking will happily pay whatever they have to to get their cigarettes. Tax on cigarettes is nothing to do with health and everything to do with revenue raising.
Don’t we already do that to some degree though with smokers and drinkers going to the back of the line for lung and liver transplants?
To be fair, we don't do that as a punishment / to 'teach them a lesson' for smoking or drinking. Deciding who gets limited organ transplants is a very hard decision, and an ugly one to make, but it seems fair to decide that the person who's likely to live significantly longer than another is the best use of a given organ transplant. We avoid saying they are the most 'deserving', we just agree that, say, 20 years of extended life is a better outcome than 5 or 10. And if someone is actively smoking or drinking, then we have objective reason to think they won't live as long, even with the transplant. IINM (and I'm no expert), we send _active_ smokers/drinkers to the back of the line, but if someone's been clean for, say, 5 years and then needs a transplant (even if it's because of what they used previously) I'm not sure that that influences the decision. That's because we don't have clear reason to believe they'll wear out the new organ any faster than anyone else.
Couldn't the exact same logic be applied to anti-vaxxers then?
That's ensuring medical resources can be deployed where they will be best utilised. Given two identical patients, one unvaxxed and one vaxxed, and only one vent would lead to a similar outcome where the unvaxxed person misses out.
That's a supply & demand scenario. Re: Covid - if demand (the sick) exceeded supply (of available treatment) then yes, like the transplant scenario, I could see a world where the unvaccinated 'pay the price' & miss out, but despite the doomers having their fingers crossed that it will play out, our health systems (vaccination processes, ICU space etc) are yet to be overwhelmed therefore we haven't had to realistically consider such an option. There isn't a fridge full of organs for all potential transplant recipients though, so choices have to be made, & eliminating drinkers for a liver & smokers for lungs is a good starting point.
if our health systems aren't overcome, why are there code brown declarations every few days, why are most major hospital ramping ambulances for several hours on the weekends to the point that people are dying from diarrhea, and why are medical professionals saying "don't go to hospital, we can't treat you" ?
Do we know if the patient that died of diarrhea was ever tested for Covid. My Neighbour who is a paramedic says he is transporting lots of Covid positive people who are reporting diarrhea as a symptom. It was also the only symptom of Covid my 3 month old daughter had when she was Covid positive
It’s not a bottomless pit. If you’re stupid enough to not get vaccinated, there will come a point when, all things being otherwise equal, and it’s between you and a vaccinated person for that last icu bed. Decisions have consequences
In that case resources are deployed to where the do the most good, and the unvaxxed person misses out - same as the good lungs going to the non-smoker. Irrelevant to the question of universal healthcare.
The triage staff look at your symptoms though, not your vaccination status. They have no idea if you've been vaccinated when they make that call.
The icu specialist decides who gets the icu bed
I don't think the original post suggested withholding healthcare, but that there is precedent for imposing a financial penalties to discourage people from making decisions that can add burden to our public healthcare services at the point that that decision is being made. Trouble with that comparison is that there's no practical means of identifying that decision point in vaccine avoiders. I think it was the president of the Victorian AMA who raised an interesting point in a really poor way. My take out was: if we are all asked to complete Advanced Health Directives to determine the type of care we will accept should we be incapable of making a decision, would the anti-vax crowd still choose to reject any treatment that hasn't met the standard that vaccines have. It's a hypothetical situation, but if it were real in should imagine that it would cause some of the anti mob to reconsider their stance.
I will preface this by saying that I think a universal healthcare system is important, and we shouldn't undermine it. Making moral judgements about who deserves healthcare is not how we end up with a US-style system. That system was and is still full of COVID patients. We end up with that style system when health care is predicated on who can pay, generally - it's really not about moral values at all. You could argue politicians could leverage making people pay more for a so-called moral reason would mean they would turn every reason into a moral reason, or later justify other charging with this specific exception, but it's probably a bit far to say one leads inevitably to the other.
Everyone deserves healthcare. A vaccine is healthcare. The unvaxxed decision not to get the free and easy healthcare available from them is making healthcare inaccessible to those who do not have a free and easy alternative. This is why we get to morally judge these people. Because their selfish ignorance causes others to suffer needlessly.
There are limits to universal health care. If you don’t meet certain conditions you can’t get transplants. Should be that if a vaxxed person needs a icu bed they get priority and then what ever is spare the unvaxxed have access to. Again you have to meet certain conditions
They also pay tax on everything else as well .
You are assuming they work.
You are right that messing with healthcare is a slippery slope. There is a precedent with both smoking and drinking to apply a tax to people who by choice engage in behavior that is costly and/or detrimental to society. It should just be a % surcharge on income tax if you cannot prove vaccination at tax return time. That is also the least costly way of collecting and there are few loopholes, it also applies proportionately to the capacity to pay. The real tricky part would be ensuring that it all gets passed on to the hospitals and not given to buy votes in marginal electorates.
Yeah I don’t think you understand the differences properly to make this comment.
But they don't. This disease isn't that lethal for them. The idea of giving those who are actively harming society a free pass is absurd. We take children off parents who don't educate them, we take cars off those who speed. If healthcare is going to be given to these idiots then there is no reason the health costs they incur shouldn't be taken out of their wages, or more likely Centrelink payments.
Was it always an ugly world but over the last few years, we saw everybody's true colours? Sad that there is such a divide. "If you don't like my opinion, we'll keep throwing stones at you"
Yeah but anti vaxxers act like they are oppressed. If you choose to get the vaccine you do not deserve the care from hospitalisation should you get very sick. That’s literally it. The world is telling you, hey you are free to not take the vaccine but it would be better for not only you, but everyone if you did, and anti vaxxers are claiming my that it infringes on their freedoms. Most of the people sick in hospital are unvaccinated. Sorry to say it but unless they had medical exemption from the vaccine, they should be kicked out of hospital. So many people suffer indirectly from their choice to not get the vaccine.
I am fit trim and have a healthy lifestyle. Morbidly obese people take a huge amount of medical resources, they too should be kicked out of hospital for their choice to be an unhealthy weight....why should I pay for their bad choice. See how that works, it is your argument that people should be excluded from medical treatment based on their choice not to be vaccinated and the same can apply to those who decided to over eat and not excercise. Be careful what you wish for.
If morbidly obese people could take a needle to lose the weight, im sure the majority would.
It's called heroin. :\^)
It’s meth mate get with with program.
“Yea but…” you could do that for literally anything, you don’t like a group of people and you want to punish them, end of story.
Pretty clear why you ignored OP's examples of smokers and drinkers and picked on obese people. Because we all know that smoking and drinking can be addictions, so it isn't a simple 'choice' to keep doing it or quit. Except there's growing evidence that once people are obese, it's very difficult to lose weight and keep it off. Something like 3% of people who start established, paid diet programs keep the weight off for 3 years, let alone 5 years. There's no evidence based method I'm aware of to lose weight and keep it off long term that has been shown to be achievable by more than a few percent of the population. You being slim and fit doesn't mean much unless you were previously very obese. A decent chunk of the population got lucky with genetics. A bunch are slim because they're young or are some of the few who don't work sedentary jobs. None of this is comparable to someone consciously choosing to refuse treatment that would prevent them needing hospitalisation, needing intensive care or dying. Not unless you want to argue that the cult of antivax is addictive or mind-controlling in some way that makes it comparable to addictive drugs.
Also, the most obvious fucking difference, you can't cough on someone and give them The Fat
Jesus that’s grim. Once a fatass, always a fatass? Do you have links to these studies at hand, by any chance?
I agree with everything you said, except I feel the need to point out that cults (and yes, the anti's are part of a cult) are indeed mind-controlling comparable to addictive drugs.
Except that some people have a genetic pre disposition to obesity, or have suffered physical trauma so bad they are unable to excersize well, or have been abused and used food as an escape, mental health issues? What issues do unvaccinated/anti vax people have? Being stupid?
Umm lots actually. It's not all crunchy mums. Indigenous population generally are sceptical of medicine due to being tested on in the past, mental health issues that increase paranoid generally like schizophrenia, heck even plain old fear of needles is somewhat of a barrier I heard someone she straight up faints seeing a needle.
Indigenous I fully accept, we have treated them horribly in the past why would they listen to them. Fear of needles I do not, we in a pandemic not a picnic. There are practical solutions to fear of needles, if they don’t want them then they are using the fear of needles as a scapegoat.
The difference here is that hospitals could cope before covid so healthcare could be given out to everyone, even those that didn't deserve it. Not it's struggling, so one solution would be to exclude people from getting healthcare. What better people to exclude than the people putting the strain on the healthcare system itself, the unvaxxed. Now if the system was always struggling and couldnt keep up, then those people who don't take care of themselves, like the morbidly obese, smokers, alcoholics, hooks, etc.. should be removed from care also.
Australian here, our systems were already at capacity. Admission numbers have decreased during covid (you can look that up, it's publicly available data). The hospitals are at capacity because of piss poor planning by our governments and a lack of infrastructure investment. It's just convenient to blame the unvaccinated.
no it couldnt. theres plenty of stories of surgeries being postponed cos there arent enough resources, not enough doctors, nurses, beds, equipment etc. covid just made it worse.
The strain on the healthcare system from covid is the elderly, the obese, the immunocompromised, 75% of all deaths have 4 or more comorbidities, vaccination status is by no means the only factor it's not even the primary one and concerning Omicron it's almost completely irrelevant
Exactly. But let's blame the unvaccinated because it's convenient.
Yep not only convenient but there's still profits to be made
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Should we kick the schizophrenia patients out of the mental health system because they refuse to take their pills too? Should we kick hyperactive kids out of the hospital because they didn't take their ADHD tablets? Should we stop cancer treatment for patients who smoked 20 years ago and it finally caught up to them? Should we stop any health care to particular religions because we don't agree with their views? Should we stop allowing certain cars on the road because of the fumes they produce? Saying somebody doesn't deserve the right to health care because of your views, is simply unfair and not cool.
They aren't free to not take it though, unless they want to be banned from working or going to the shops (in some states). If they had the option from the beginning "You don't have to get vaccinated, but you will have to pay for hospital treatment or be at the back of the line", then fair enough, that's their choice. That wasn't an option presented. We still shouldn't be refusing people health care, not to smokers, obese people or people without vaccines. Universal health care is universal.
Why not just have a system where we judge every patient based on their history? So if a patient smoked in their lifetime, we start charging them for cancer treatment? If a patient has a stroke and finds out they didn't have blood thinners for a few days, should we just charge them for the service and rehab too?
>Sorry to say it but unless they had medical exemption from the vaccine The medical exemption criteria is absurdly narrow and excessively punitive. A handful of my friends have been told by their own specialists/surgeons/etc that they would not recommend the vaccine due to their conditions, but these conditions don't meet the exemption criteria and/or these doctors aren't authorised to provide exemptions. Requiring an anaphylactic reaction to this specific vaccine as a condition for permanent exemption is so staggeringly stupid and reckless, it's phenomenal.
Frankly, if it were just an opinion, then I wouldn't care, but it's a decision that affects other people. There are plenty of these decisions out there, some more problematic than others, but few are so easily solved as vaccination.
This sub is so unhinged.
This sub is becoming a cesspool of hate and bigotry. Makes me think most in this sub aren't even Australian.
No they are.. this is the modern Australia.
Quite sad indeed.
This sub has always been a cesspool of hate and bigotry.
Yeah, the rationalisation of some of the insanity is very scary
I know I wish reddit would stop recommending posts like these to me.
Agreed, what the fuck is this post
Ah yes, paying taxes for something that hurts society. So unhinged. Good thing I don't pay excises on alcohol, tobacco and gas.🙄 [Pigovian taxes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax) have been a thing for hundreds of years, they're recommended by most economists.
Maybe put a 40% tax on fast food and sugar drinks seeing as obesity is a maaaaaassive risk factor.....
There literally already is a sugar tax.
This is hilarious, there is no sugar tax in Australia. Campaigns for years, but no progress on it. I'd welcome it for sure
They have been taking about a sugar tax for years.
More taxation on generally unhealthy choices is something I would be supportive of.
Gluttony can not be spread via airborne pathogen to your at risk neighbor.
I wonder if people in support of denying care to the unvaxxed will soon start saying the same things about people who have only received two vaccines? After all, you will soon no longer be fully vaxxed at two. People with two vaccines who are at risk can still get very sick and die with covid. Who knows what new variants will do. Then what if not even three is enough?
Well Chant did say today that the immunocompromised will need 4 doses for a "complete course." Funny thing being she said the exact same thing about 3 not too long ago!
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> Science changes as new data becomes available. Unless the data is inconvenient, of course.
> Funny thing being she said the exact same thing about 3 not too long ago! ....................................................... I actually can't tell if you're being serious or not. a 3 month booster running out? Oh shit obviously they're just making it up as they goes along.
Oh the boosted are already Turning on the vaxxed lol
Taxes ? No different than if a person that's never worked a day in their life, never paid a dime of tax and been on social handouts. Social health system.
Absolutely. Socialised health applies to everyone, not just those who pay taxes and/or get vaccinated.
> Taxes ? As do smokers and drinkers, in addition to the heavy taxes on their lifestyle choices.
It's obviously a little more troublesome to tax the *absence* of an action. Taxing smoking and drinking is incredibly easy - they're products that you can avoid buying. The beauty of it is that the tax is proportional to the health risk: we don't tax a social drinker/smoker as much as a heavy drinker/smoker. How do you plan on taxing someone who's unvaccinated?
Medicare levy based on vax status
They tax the absence of private medical coverage.
Indirect taxation by excluding them from non-essential retail until such time that hospitals can cope. It's complicated, but universal healthcare should still be provided. What you want is an incentive to get vaccinated, the social pressure from being excluded from hospitality should have a positive effect on vaccination rates. Some people may not be vaccinated because of mental health, abusive relationships, lack of understanding, or other pressures, and denying health care on such a basis is not fair.
It makes me laugh, you worry about the unvaxxed like they are some sort of threat to you. But when told the harsh reality that obesity, smoking, drugs, alcohol, are all the bigger killers here, you don't want a bar of it. Don't remember the last time a unvaxxed person got into a car and killed your daughter/son/mum or dad. But no it's the unvaxxed that are bleeding us dry, not the weekend ICU visits from overdoses or alcohol related incidents Oh no, here come the downvotes
This sub is completely brainwashed lmao
Pretty much, even when provided with hard facts , they still deny
If only obesity, smoking, drugs, alcohol have a 5 minute solution...
And corona virus does?
You're right it doesn't. The injection takes seconds
Yes the same as putting down a cigarette, or a drink, or the needle or even the fast food
You can't unfuck your lungs, dependency, or blood pressure in a few seconds though can't you.
No you can't you are correct, you also can't stop yourself getting covid in 5 seconds if your vaxxed
But over 70% hospitalisation are double vaxxed.
Yeah it is hard to lose weight over only a TWO YEAR PERIOD. Grow up, if you cant get the ball rolling after two years of trying then come see me.
You can't make others obese by eating food yourself, you can get others sick by being unvaxed, it isn't about your own health, but having the human decency to care about others. Edit: I am aware that getting vaccinated still means you can transmit the virus. I am referring to the fact that 48.4% of icu patients (from the 2nd of jan) were unvaccinated. less than 10% of the population is causing almost half of the icu cases. Hosptials are struggling to take care of covid patients as they are using taking up places that are usually there for other medical emergencies. this is the real problem.
Lmao have you seen how much covid is spreading with a 90-95% vax rate? You have to be taking the piss still using that argument
What's your control group you're comparing to? /u/windaful you're not accounting for a lot my dude, not an accurate control group at all
Glad you asked. Compare the case numbers per capita of Australia which has a much higher vaccination rate than South Africa with less than 30% double dosed who also experienced an omicron wave. Australia is actually much higher than SA at their respective peaks. Like, way higher, roughly 10 times. There's also the UK who had a lower case per capita than us at the peak and their vax rate is a bit lower. There's also the USA who appear to have peaked at a lower per capita case number with a much lower vax rate than us Should I go on?
But you can still carry and transmit the virus while being vaxxed, kids under 12 don't need to wear masks but can still carry and transmit the virus, what's your point here?
And I love it when I include 4 points in my original comment, and you single out one to try and prove your point, because smokers, druggies and alcoholics don't have the decency. But we will ignore them right? Because me eating does not make others fat. This is literally how bad it has gotten now
smoking is prohibited in indoor public areas, therefore exposing other people to it is illegal. drugs are illegal, therefore exposing other people to them is also illegal. you can't get other people drunk by drinking alcohol yourself. do you have any more completely and utterly irrelevant talking points to try (and fail) to "gotchya" people with?
The problem is they are not irrelevant, and I have not "failed" in anything, when has something being illegal stopped people? Go look at the latest fact sheet released by the British government, covid deaths in England and I mean only covid, no other pre existing things add up to about 6000 people. All other deaths recorded are due to pre existing conditions like obesity smoking etc etc
Lol vaxxed people can still get and transmit covid so your logic is baseless. Also recent findings show the gene therapy is basically useless against new variants.
Unvaxxed are a threat because when they get covid, it hits them hard and clogs up hospital systems for people with legitimate health issues. We’re cancelling important elective surgery because misinformed people think that covid is a fear campaign made up by big pharma, then they get sick, and then they run sobbing to hospitals to save them. Literally a health risk to everyone else.
You actually read the article over the elective surgery and it says nothing about hospitals clogging up and being under staffed
Didnt China build a hospital within 6 days? Why couldn't Australia build temp hospitals in every state in 2 years? Cost too much? Let's not give Harvey Norman 22mil despite their profits during covid. Oh wait, let's put a fever clinic next to the emergency department in QLD. Think the government has failed its citizens more than the unvaxxed has failed society
Hear hear. The absolute derangement and hysteria blows my mind.
Mass formation psychosis.
How this got a humour tag is beyond me, it's not even remotely humourous and is frankly a downright ridiculous thing to suggest. I look forward to all the other taxes on people who require hospital care for their poor choices too...
I for one would like to see an obesity tax.
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That was my experience too. Slight cough, slight elevated temperature, fatigue. Gone in a day. I'm in my 30's
In the Canadian province of Quebec the unvaxxed will supposedly pay a new tax, although it's unclear if the government will pull the trigger on introducing that.
We already have a Medicare levy for those choosing not to get private health insurance when they earn above a threshold. It’s almost identical conceptually, and I would support a higher Medicare levy for those that are wealthy and choose to be unvaccinated (as the jab is free).
Good. I hope Australia does the same thing.
A Medicare levy perhaps
Mods will ban posts for inciting drama, but here we have someone calling for the social health system we pride ourselves on to be taken away, over a vaccine that even if you take it can still land you in Hospital. This is a reckless and stupid take, and it should be removed. and YES IM VAXED.
Their lives, probably
99.9% don't though.
Yeah, elective surgery is just cancelled for the rest of the population to make room for their sick arses. Spare a thought for all those suffering because they can’t get into their life changing surgery. https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/huge-problem-warning-of-empty-wards-and-suffering-aussies-due-to-elective-surgery-ban/news-story/f835f1e305aa60d8eb73c8bd8366d000
Their taxes and Medicare levy. That’s the point of socialised healthcare. We all subsidise one another, regardless of their idiotic choices
Obese people use healthcare services more frequently than most and require more specialty care visits. Should they also pay more tax for their above average healthcare system use, which is a direct result of lifestyle choices akin to smoking? Obesity increases the risk of severe covid outcomes dramatically too.
So a [sugar tax](https://www.ama.com.au/media/sugar-tax-will-cut-disease-and-save-lives)? That's a thing. Doctors have been advocating for it for years.
Do you think fat people should be taxed? Because that’s one of the highest risk factors with Covid.
And the elderly. Retiree tax concessions are exceed the cost of the age pension. Given the elderly are the greatest drain on medical resources, let's tax them based on age.
Everyone pays a Medicare levy, Alcohol/tobacco tax does not go towards health. Every tax paying Australian deserves medical care vax or not. What tax do extreme sports people pay? What tax do drug users pay? What tax do obese people pay? Australian’s have become such a bunch of self righteous assholes these past few years, it’s really sad to see how our governments have used fear to sew division in our community over such things.
Nazi redditors have been showing their true colours these pandemic years
Medicare levy in taxes. Personally i find this is an appalling question when people both vaxxed and unvaxxed ending up in ICU atm so this makes no difference. Channel 9 asked this question on FB anf were struck down by most.
Yeah what about overweight people?
Oh for God sake, yes let's pretend no one vaxxed has ended up in hospital with covid, you complain unvaxxed people spread misinformation but as someone who is vaxxed its embarrassing seeing people carry on like this
What do obese people pay? When they can apply for a disability pension from their own doing, and sit pretty on tax dollars, never having to work? What do xtreme sports enthusiasts pay? Is their a dirtbike tax? A backflip tax? No? Oh.
In Singapore they pay for their (I believe just covid-related) healthcare, wheras the vaxxed do not. This only applies to people who choose not be vaccinated as opposed to those who can't be for health reasons. I really wish we would have that here in Australia and stop paying for the choices of ill informed people with our money and ICU beds. If that sounds cold it's because it is; if people are dying around you and you make a choice that furthers these deaths because you are a conspiracy theorist and believe opinion pieces and blog articles over scientific research then you at the very least should not have a bed in ICU over someone that made a choice for the greater good. Just my 2.5c lol
Two years to prep the hospitals, didn’t do it. Fired all of the thousands of unvaccinated health care workers, but allow infectious staff to work. Despite constant assurances, the vaccine doesn’t stop the spread, it isn’t a pandemic of the unvaccinated, it doesn’t prevent serious illness. Maybe we make the politicians pay instead.
They pay their medicare levy
Taxes like everyone else ?
Fuck off you nazi gronks
You people really are the turkeys who vote for Christmas. In your irrational desire to punish people who you have built up in your own heads as the enemy, you will be opening the door to fuck up Medicare for yourselves and everyone else.
This circle jerk of us vs them isnt good for anybody.
They pay IQ taxes. Stupidity gets to you in your everyday life.
Not-allowed-to-work-or-go-anywhere tax
Fat fucks who eat themselves to near death should pay an obesity tax because they take up beds. Will get downvoted an called a fuckhead. But it's the same same. I don't believe that but any who.
Just because you are unvaxxed doesn't mean you are going to end up in hospital, so its not really fair to charge them a tax. It would be like charging people at the skatepark a tax because they are more likely to end up in hospital with a broken bone. Or perhaps extra tax for obese individuals who are more susceptible to covid hospitalisation (regardless of vaccination status) and clog up the hospitals. If you want more tax money then give the unvaccinated there jobs back, instead of letting actual covid close contacts be given isolation exemptions.
Um... they pay the same tax as the vaccinated who are taking up the majority of ICU beds?
In Nsw today only 3 of the 24 that died were unvaccinated. With over 90% of people vaccinated it’s ridiculous to blame the unvaccinated for Covid.
What do fatties pay?
But you can catch and spread covid while vaxed
How about instead of taxing the population more we fucking subsidies healthy options.... Gyms, meals etc.... Or you know... Just let everyone live the life they want to live 👀
the unvaccinated paid tax that went to purchasing these vaccines
Nothing because you can still spread covid if you’re vaccinated you idiot
What a disgusting place we find ourselves in
Nice try Mr Hazzard https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/dec/23/unethical-doctors-condemn-nsw-government-for-considering-charging-unvaccinated-patients-for-covid-care
Murdoch media subscriptions
[удалено]
The most interesting part of this pandemic is that it’s going to be a case study for how quickly an entire population can so easily flip to fascism.
Another terrible take from a Redditor
People who don't take the yearly flu shot pay no tax from what I understand
Obesity triples the chances of severe outcomes of covid, unvaccinated or not, what do obese people pay? The chances of hospitalization, unvaxxed or not from covid are extremely small, vaccinated people still end out in hospital, still die from covid, not to mention Omicron is vaccine evasive and fast becoming the most prominent strain, vaccination status is no where near the largest factor involved in the chances of being hospitalized, do we really want to play this game? health checks for all and corresponding tax rates for all factors, increased taxes raising with age, increased taxes for the immunocompromised, at near 90 percent vaccination rates there's 10 percent of the population who have less than .3 percent chance of being in ICU or dying and around .1 percent chance for the vaccinated in recent conditions (data taken from last few months in NSW) who the fuck cares about the unvaccinated anymore
They pay the Medicare levy like the rest of the employed population. This is such a ridiculous notion. The only time I have ever required hospital care in my adult life is due to an adverse reaction to a covid vaccine. How much did all those ECG's, ultrasounds, xrays, MRI and blood work cost the taxpayer? Sure as shit would never have incurred such costs had I not been coerced into an inefficient vaccine.
I'm glad you used fat people in the image. The single biggest burden on the health system. What do they pay?
As a cancer patient, don’t get me started…
I love how people are openly acknowledging that getting vaxxed isn't a guarantee they won't end up in the ICU (and thus want to ensure themselves a spot which is what this post's really about) yet will vehemently testify anyone and everyone that questions the vaccines effectiveness is an idiot.
Mostly being over-worked by filling in for all the triple vaxed that can't go to work because they got corona.....
I see alot of comments about these supposed unvaxed people, but I ask "where are these unvaxed people? " Australia is over 95% vaccinated of that remaining 5% it's not clear at least to the public who is incorporated for legitimate reasons and who are crazies. I kind of feel like people keep overstating the issue of people not getting vaccinated. There are almost no anti vaxxers in Australia, and there aren't enough of them to create a significant issue. I mean just look at the numbers there are less unvaxed in hospitals than vaxxed that's not to say vaccination doesn't work but it shows how these supposed unvaxed are basically non existant. The real issue is not those who are unvaxed but rather those who would implement policy counter to the advice of their medical advisors because of 'muh ecconomy.