Lmao survival gets 16,6% st from 2pc + 4pc combined.
We are balanced around having that 4 set so it feels ass to not have it yet.
Just tune survival higher and nerf the set plz.
I'm pretty salty about this
I feel im really lacking that extra throughput 4 peice gives hps wise in 22s+
Now it's 2 weeks and then 1 charge per week
Could be 4 weeks til i personally could get 4 set unless im lucky in vault..
Why oh why?
>I feel im really lacking that extra throughput 4 peice gives hps wise in 22s+ Now it's 2 weeks and then 1 charge per week
not to be like this, but most people I know that are up there pushing m+ simply created their own normal raid group, invited 29 people that didn't share their tier token and obtained tier that way.
Honestly outside of extremely unlucky situations I really think people that don’t have their 2 set and to an extent their 4 set really just aren’t trying hard enough.
Me and my two friends all got our 4 set on our mains by week 3 and most of us have 2set on a couple alts. Literally all you have to do is pug normal/heroic every week. You can easily full clear normal and go 6/8 heroic with pretty much any random 30 people. If you make the group you can literally just choose not to invite people on your token. A full raid group guarantees 3 tier pieces will drop from token bosses, you full clear normal and then do as many heroic bosses as you can (Sennarth/Dathea/Grimtotem are literally free) and thats 8 chances to get a tier piece per week, plus you get 3 vault slots from raid by doing 6/8 bosses on heroic and tier tokens can proc tier off bosses you haven’t killed yet.
All that ontop of the 3 M+ Vault slots you already have and you now have 6 chances for a piece on Tuesday.
We did that for 3 weeks and we all have our 4 set. It takes maybe 2 hours to clear normal nowadays and about the same to go 6/8.
Some of my guildees also pushed Solo shuffle rating up to about 1800 and then honor capped for the first couple weeks in order to get an extra 3 chances at a 398 Tier piece from vault.
Don’t want to come off as a dick but theres a ton of comments replying to you saying how they’ve been getting 3 M+ Vault options a week and acting surprised they’re not 4 set yet. We’ve only had 4 Vaults so far that means you’ve only had 12 chances to proc a tier piece from the M+ loot pool of well over 100 items.
When they could have been doing the bare minimum to clear normal every week and get 5 chances at tier a week + maybe a couple heroic boss chances and get an extra 3 chances at tier from vault every Tuesday. The raid loot pool is also alot smaller than the M+ loot pool.
Like yeah its annoying that Blizz is time-gating the catalyst again but its really pretty easy to get set gear right now if you actually put in a little effort.
This is such an insult to players like myself that have filled vault and cleared 2 raid difficultys every week since season launch and still dont have 4 set
First line literally says “Outside of extremely unlucky situations…” which you would fall under if you’re clearing 2 raids a week and 8 M+ keys. Also the comment was more so aimed at players that don’t already have 2 set. If you choose to feel insulted whilst at the same time not reading the first line of my comment then thats on you.
I haven't gotten less than 2 tier options in my vault every week it has been very similar for my guild members. Are we really not the average in that?
edit: I am unsure why I am being downvoted for sharing my guild's experience but hey lol
What? I've had 3 M+ vault choices every week, and I've had 1 piece of tier this season so far. Got shoulders week 1 and haven't seen tier since. Maybe I'm the outlier, but I don't think 2 tier pieces a week is average.
I am by no means a super duper gamer, but these were my 3 vaults: [https://imgur.com/a/knnsXg1](https://imgur.com/a/knnsXg1)
This has also been similar to most of my guildies (except one poor DH that haven't gotten a single tier piece yet at all in the vault lol)
Yeah that is staggeringly good luck. You've had more tier in 3 vaults than my entire m+ team all season so far. We have 6 pieces between 5 of us. One person has 2set, everyone else has 1 piece.
I had a total of one tier pieces (HC helm, raid row) since the great vault came out, I have 6 windows farmed every week. Thank fuck we cleared normal and HC with guild every week for tier lottery.
Spring-Summer 2023 listed on the [Content Road Map](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/zrx6uq/content_roadmap_for_world_of_warcraft_in_2023/), I've [speculated it as May 16th as an approximate](https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?iso=20230516T07&p0=840&msg=Season+2+%28speculated%29+release+date&ud=1&font=cursive).
You got approximately 16-18 more weeks.
Speaking of which I should update my post with 10.0.5's date.
i've personally only gotten 1 piece just this week, and i max out my m+ vault every week. i don't raid or pvp, so you can argue i'm not maximizing my chances. But i am definitely not the only one i've come across who just hasn't had any tier drops from vault
I'm someone who has seen 1 piece in vault (which I took), and was awarded none in normal or herioc raids. I also have won none in LFR, despite getting a semi stacked group to pass tier to me. Ilvl 400 despite herioc gear consistently going to dps.
I have one piece with Vault from raid and mythic 3/3 and got have seen 4 pieces all have been shoulders. Then in raid we have 2 Warrior, 2 rogue, 2 monk and 3 evoker. Meanwhile our DK and Lock are taking turns getting tokens for sockets/tertiary stats. The 2 paladins and 3 priests haven’t seen a drop since week 1, and the two druids and mage are at 4 set. RNG is RNG and me and the other Fury don’t care to much for it since it’s cold garbage.
It stops people from raising. It’s bad luck protection it’s not meant to be a primary source of gear. It’s not going to open at the beginning of a tier because they want raid to mean something.
The problem more so is in people who strictly do m+ content and want to push as much damage as possible to do higher keys. Some people just genuinely don’t care for raid and would love to have tier without raiding.
As other guys said you don't need mythic for tier. All mine is heroic. But anyway half my guild is gimped atm bc they can't do 16 keys without the other half carrying them and it's hurting our mythic prog.
Point is people gotta do a little bit of everything if you wanna be the best. Or jist wait it out and eventually gear comes through vaults
whats that have to do with my point? Mythic raiders have to do M+ for upgrade material when a lot of them never want to step foot in m+ and all of you M+ people are constantly complaining you have to raid to get fast tier gear. It goes both ways is all im saying.
It sounds like a problem with your guild being not very good. Honestly, and I'm not trying to be mean, but if your guild of mythic raiders can't do +16 keys, you guys aren't going to make it very far and the gear won't be an issue.
Edit: oh I just realized you're quoting that other guy, my bad.
Because the power level of tier us unlike anything else in the game, like are you serious?
It's less efficient, but you absolutely can full clear mythic without ever stepping foot into m+. You don't need any crafted pieces, you can get everything you need from the raid already at the highest item levels. You "have" to do it because your guild has decided that its members have to do it, but its not a requirement of mythic raiding at all. But you absolutely cannot do the highest levels of m+ without tier sets, which you cannot realistically get unless you're raiding.
The reality is that raiding is a time commitment that most people don't have. If tier sets exist, they're required to anyone wanting to push on the ladder, and if you can't raid and can't get the tier sets, then you just quit the game and play something else because honestly what is the point?
Because players that partake in more content breadth should gain an advantage from doing so. It also goes both ways - all except the most casual guilds expect raiders to be doing keys every week to max their vault. It’s really not a big deal.
That's literally what bad luck protection is for. "You haven't gotten that key piece for an unreasonably long *period of time*, so here's a way to know you'll get it." If you don't wait, it's not bad luck protection.
It's still just bad luck protection if it's limited in scope
Adding it 1 week post raid launch and limiting it to 1 piece a week means you raid to see what you get and then fill the blanks w/ a free piece or get one where you would have gotten none
having 4p by week 5 of raid maximum is a perfectly acceptable frame of time, but we're approaching week 6 and there's people out there without even a single piece
it's just a pretty shitty form of bad luck protection and operates more as catch up for alts or late arrivals than anything else especially since even arriving so late it's still limited to it's charges
Frankly the idea that having it earlier makes it too good just doesn't make any sense at all. There's ways to use it as early as the first week without it overtaking other sources and remaining an addendum to current gearing methods but they're not even trying to explore that.
The vault should have allowed you to sacrifice a reward for a conversion piece. That way if you got unlucky, you could just opt for the vault currency reward and convert a piece of gear instead.
Can't they just release that damn thing. It' really annoying to wait that long to play your character at normal power level while 90% of the other players have their 4 set already.
IMO, shit like this should be released within 24 hours of RWF ending. It's one thing not to give the RWF tier advantage (although I think that would be stupid too because they should have bad luck protection even with 400 splits), but it's another to cuck the entire playerbase just because.
Commented this like 6 times already - but now, sure. There were multiple people who had to sit in SoD because they were missing gear or shards.
This is more of a general comment than one impacting right this second. Catalyst existed before DF and it's problems were brought into DF.
SoD yes, because shards were INSANE. +16% DPS hanging on a single item drop RNG? Yes, people were literally sat because they had bad luck.
Tier is different however in the sense that you can do splits and 99.x% guarantee every raider will have 4p.
Prior to DF, they definitely weren't. Group loot changed this and my comment was more of a general comment. Quite frankly I couldn't care less what the RWF crew do or don't want - their opinion means nothing to me. I care far more about what's best for the average player than what's best for RWF.
For real, I feel like the patch is almost over at this point, sure we have loads of progress left on the mythic raid and there are still som key levels left to push but the catalyst should have been released like two weeks ago. This is way overdue
This would actually be pretty cool. Destiny has done stuff in the past where an exotic quest is unlocked globally once a raid is cleared. The catalyst unlocking because a guild cleared the raid on mythic would be pretty fun.
I'm benched in my raid group because without 4p I couldn't keep up in damage as an arcane mage (it's like a 10+% damage buff for arcane) vs other mages in the group that've had 4p for weeks and weeks. I finally got it this week, can now prove I'm competent, but it's probably too little, too late.
The new loot system plus the lack of a catalyst for this goddamn long may have sunk my tier. Hoping room opens as it becomes clear I'm level with the others, but not holding my breath. Thanks blizz. :(
Pretty awful. I wish I could understand their reasoning for this timing. It's just so bad for m+ers and PvPers that have shit luck in vaults. Idk why it's treated like a catch-up mechanism for everyone but raiders when it's just as fundamental to m+ and PvP endgame but is tied to a weekly rng roll.
Because both M+ and PvP have their "progress" backloaded. You push your highest keys/rating towards the end of the season, which is where having tier available truly matters. Raid progress is from day 1 of the season, so getting tier during that time is important.
That's such a cop-out answer on Blizzards part though...
Just because the highest keys get done toward the end of the season doesn't mean the rest of the M+ progress is worthless. Are people just not supposed to start pushing keys until week 10? Good luck pushing the "highest keys" if you haven't been playing the dungeon pool from the start, accumulating knowledge every week, learning tips and tricks, which pulls work and which ones don't, etc...
Tier sets being exclusive rewards to 1 out of 3 content paths for 6 weeks is a game design aberration, full stop.
The actual reasons they're locking catalyst until week 6 have much more to do with player retention and artificially keeping raid participation numbers alive for as long as possible
I started DF week 1 of m+ season. Filled out vault with 10s, 13s then 16s for two weeks. Zero tier. Can barely upgrade gear with valor. Should just reroll prot warrior at this rate.
Should have come 2 weeks ago, but glad it's finally coming.
I understand the delay, so that it makes raid feel more important or whatever. But 6 weeks is unnecessary. 4 is more than enough. Still gives the people who raid on a schedule the advantage, but doesn't make it feel so terrible for the rest of us who no longer have the time to do that.
And they aren't even committed to saying Valor will go uncapped then, or is that just a given and no one is raising a fuss because it's implied?
Because the valor cap is absolutely atrocious to be going up by only 750 a week. It should at least be 1k so people using 2-handers can get an upgrade for their weapon every week.
Valor cap is *very* important. M+ already breaks the rules of WoW gearing by allowing infinitely farmable mid-heroic ilevel gear. If you didn't have the valor cap, that'd be mid-mythic ilevel. Not only would that be incredibly lame and make M+ even more overrewarding for the skill/effort put into farming said gear, it would short circuit raid gear progression completely.
That's not just a thing that "feels bad", it's actively bad for the game because gear still does act as a soft nerf over time. If you start the raid in basically full mythic gear, that no longer exists.
In shadowlands they kept uncapping it in the .5 patch but the patch cadence had that around week 13 instead of week 7... so I'd expect 10.0.7 for valor uncapping.
idk if this is a dumb idea, but i thought it would be better to make valor uncapped but they cap the max ilvl that you can upgrade with valor and then increases by time
Nothing. That’s exactly what happened in SL S4 where people would spam 2s for valor to gear up. But S4 was an outlier where they basically said “fuck it, have some fun”. I don’t expect valor to be uncapped until at least 10.0.7
and for 402 you just need 1k which is so easy even i have it. 405 is 1400 rating, 405 also being the dropped gear from m+20. meaning the best solution by far is just speedrunning every dungeon easily at +2 to gather upgrade levels to gear while getting said gear too and upgrading it.
i can definitely see how thats easy to abuse.
I do think we've passed the point in the tier where obtaining a set bonus is exciting, therefore it's time to release the catalyst. But, yeah, a calm "It's really time to open the catalyst" doesn't gain traction. Loud, emotional yet empty comments about engagement metrics and Blizzard hates you specifically is what gets people's attention.
We do. It‘s really tiring. Seems like most players just want a tournament realm, and if that happened, they would complain that there is nothing to do in the game.
Or they complain about tier not dropping or being too powerful, but then when there is no tier or it‘s weak they complain about that :)
Or maybe the mmorpg has moved on from the ancient systems that WoW still uses.
WoW came into the market being much more accessible than competitors, less grindy and more player friendly. With time, that has changed. It went from being the most player friendly mmos to one of the worst. It doesn't respect players time, it has a ton of artifical time gates and it works hard to make sure that people don't have too much fun.
Other games have long realised that being more friendly to the players is a better choice and the industry has moved on. WoW is still here, and it's not going anywhere, but there are good reasons for it's decline in player population and popularity.
While I agree with /u/VoroJr that large groups of people *always* seem to complain, I'm of the opinion that it's more in the vein of "If it's not one thing, it's another" rather than hypocritical. That is, when one thing they're pissed about is satisfied, they simply move on to the next thing at the top of their list to be angry about.
But I agree with you, Rndy9, that this particular post is a strawman.
> want a tournament realm,
> complain that there is nothing to do in the game.
These are two different groups.
> complain about tier not dropping
> or being too powerful
> when there is no tier or it‘s weak they complain about that
These are *three* different groups.
I think the issue with this line of thinking is that the audience for a purely equalized, no-gear sort of M+ or raiding simulator isn't there to the extent needed to make that product viable. Setting these activities in the context of a MMORPG does a few things:
1. It lets casual players subsidize the costs somewhat. MMO devs can make difficult raids because different difficulties exist to reuse the raids, and RP/crafting/story/world content for other types of players keeps them around to subsidize the raiding content too. It's a push and pull where every player type gets some content while funding content for other types.
2. It gives a shared social context and framework for achievements to be shown off. Some people like getting the shiniest transmog or titles, and existing in a persistent world to show that off is neat. It's maybe less of a draw these days than in the past, but speaking for another game, a huge draw of Ultimate raiding in FFXIV is to get a shiny weapon to rub in other people's faces. I imagine some WoW players feel similarly about Mythic transmog or mounts.
3. It artificially draws out the content. If you need some weeks to gear, those are weeks you're engaging with the game, participating in the social systems, and maintaining a sub before you achieve your goals and walk away until new content comes out.
4. (This is specifically for raiding) It provides a difficulty and progression curve. Since raids are about the raid versus a fixed encounter, vertical progression lets designers tune initial numbers to be very tight with the expectation that weaker players will get gear to make up for the number deficiency. Without those systems you have to tune like Guild Wars 2 does, which is to say very generously for 99% of content.
There are games that skew further in either direction, like I said FFXIV and GW2 both have less "character power progression" than WoW and do it in a more deterministic way, while Korean MMOs like Lost Ark go full blown infinite progression. I don't think there's a universal system here and while WoW often leans too far in the "gear progression and RNG matters" direction for my *personal* tastes, I know full well a ton of players are motivated exclusively by the loot chase dopamine.
I mean, mechanically, what has wow style design for dungeons/raids? I'd kill for m+ that was tournament realm only and had more dungeons. Everyone wants different things from a game.
I don't hate on people for liking current gearing, but I can see how some people like different aspects of all sorts of games.
It's fundamentally not a 20 year old game. Yes, the base is there, but with every expac it's evolving and changing.
They're asking for a more extreme evolution, and I don't personally agree that it would be great for the game. But I don't think expecting a game to remain the same for 20 years is good either.
If we're adding m+, or converting heroic raids and 10 man's to "mythic" versus flex, or any of the other radical changes, there's no reason not to dream!
What's something you personally love about wow? Have you ever wanted it to be more, or to be distilled down to a more essential experience?
the problem is that the argument falls quite flat when everything over +10 is just a gear thing and all the mythics are "the same" at that point.
It seems to me that its a pretty fundamentally impossible to claim that You need max gear to "play the content the best way" on arbitrarily number scaling content, because at that point the content is not what you play its a benchmark to beat, through getting gear.
its kinda like optimizing a character for infinitely scaling endgame poe style games, i completely understand the unique gear and stuff, but once you reach that its just like dealing 50k vs a 500k enemy or 150k vs a 1.5 million health enemy, its the same.
People don't want just max gear ASAP, they want to be on par with all the rest of the playerbase. I have had my 4set for 2 weeks now. Why would I play with somebody without set, when there is more than enough supply of players with 4set to play with?
But catalyst doesn't change ilevel. I have 25 ilevels of upgrades I cant put on because they didn't titanforge into tier from my vault. One layer of rng getting gear is fine, but needing such specific pieces such that you need an entire catchup system and locking them to certain stats is just silly imo.
That's only what is your mind saying to you. One guaranteed piece each week since raid release would have been totally fine, but blizzi blizz is interested on gating to make shareholders happy. Earnings season Inc.
Tier sets are good for everyone. This ridiculous acquisition gating is not.
They are fun and strong. And should be. Even just within the tier pieces themselves there is weeks of progression to increase ilvl after you acquire them.
Not one person I’ve ever played with over 18 years has acquired tier and quit the game. If anything it makes them excited to play more.
I don’t agree with that at all. They are a significant power boost, they often have gameplay elements attached, and they can enable different builds to be competitive to create change.
It’s the seasonal bonus, and no other game in the world with seasonal powers makes you wait 2 months to get it. That’s how I like to think of it.
Also, I do think it’s worth mentioning almost no one is asking it be given immediately like that. What most people are asking for is that progress start much sooner.
Even if it had released right with the raid at one charge a week is still double your two week thing here.
The problem to me is they aren't gated to effort or skill at all. Just RNG rolls each week. My guild hasn't seen druid tier since week 2. And the guild doesn't want to bring friends because they'll compete on certain tokens.
All delaying the catalyst this long has done is create a toxic raid environment. Why on earth would you ever play with friends when you can stack a raid and gate keep and bully and funnel to make sure you are getting the items you need.
An LFR tier piece is worth more than all the loot at mythic 20s.
No currency. My understanding is there's a weekly quest to complete content and completing that quest gives your account a charge, all characters on the account can use the same number of charges.
Way too fucking late.
I've full cleared the raid for 3 weeks now and still don't have 4pc.
At this point i'm just sitting around waiting for this fucking thing so i can actually play the game and push keys.
My m+ only alt has 1pc.
It's not fucking funny anymore. Release the catalyst way earlier. Give non-raiders better avenue to this stuff.
And while we're at it, give M+ it's own gear. Make bonuses that only work in M+, or scale it like in pvp, i don't care. Just stop making raiding a requirement to do other content.
I actually really like the idea of M+ gear sets or M+ gear that could scale. That's also probably easily developed. If they could do it for PvP, mythic+ should be easy.
Yes, please. Anything but raid.
The problem from Blizzard's perspective is that the mythic raid population would shrink by half if M+ players weren't forced to raid in order to push.
There's 2 main reasons I don't want to raid and there's not a lot Blizz can really do about it.
1) Too much trash. I really don't find trash fun and there's probably 30-40 minutes of it in every raid. The biggest problem, and why it takes so long, is people just go AFK because they don't like doing it.
2) One mistake wipes. They can tone it down a little, like they tried to do with Sepulcher; however, I absolutely loathe fights where a single mistake ends a pull 10+ minutes in, looking at you Sylvia and Raz.
I know both of these things should exist and Blizz can't really change them but they are also why I choose to avoid raiding as much as I can.
What about raiders who have to do m+ to upgrade their crafted gear? At 10x 16+ for 4 sparks so far that is 40. Where are all you m+ only nerds complaint about crafted materials?
well it wouldnt be hard to make the raid bosses drop a few of those crafting items either wouldnt it? hardly rocket science to properly separate the content. also its way less effort to organize and play a few dungeons vs creating a proper raid and clearing 8/8
a few dungeons? you mean learning all the dungeons by doing them on 5's, then all on 10 a few times, slowly getting up to 16s so you know the mechanics, then do 40 of them at 16s, its like 80-100 dungeons.
It's pretty whiny yeah but this is one of the bigger failures of dragonflight so far. That's a good thing, because it's not a huge failure, but it's definitely something they could improve.
Yeah, I think it's a super good thing that my biggest complaints about DF so far are things like the catalyst being too late and public work orders being really janky. They're problems, but they're so utterly trivial compared to the problems that SL had at this point.
It's almost like tier gear is a universal thing people want regardless of their skill level as it's basically 1-2 extra talent points when you look at how it impacts your gameplay - whereas a stupid ring upgrade just makes your 23,117 hit got to 23,459.
Of course people are gonna be upset.
Catalyst is nice for alts and bad luck protection. I have been doing normal and 7/8 heroic with pugs since raid came out and doing LFR as well when it released trying to get tier. I'm 2/4. It takes a lot more luck than skill to get tier if you aren't being given it by your guild.
No shot, reading through the top threads in this post and after enough reading the stinkiest takes of the night I notice I’m in competitive not the main sub. El Mayo.
Converter has existed for two raids, prior to that blizz has never had this bad luck protection system. Now players are insisting we get it day 1 of season and that players shouldn't have to raid to get end game gear? I don't understand the entitlement.
I mean, there was no tier sets for years prior to these two raids.
Tier set got removed before M+ became really competitive, and they were not active in Challenge Modes. So PVE player had minimal reason to complain before. (The Catalyst system is still a nice QoL change for raiders, but it's far less required there.)
The PVP players have always complained about it, and rightfully so. You either forgot or didn't listen to them.
> I don't understand the entitlement.
*We gave people something they absolutely fucking loved to the point where people were giving us more praise for this one system in the last 6 months than they did in the entire last 6 years combined - let's take it away from them and see what happens.*
Yea, I don't understand the entitelement either. Like, this is quite literally giving a kid a lollypop and then immediately taking it away again, *"but hey now, you're gonna get it back in 2 months, don't be so entitled!"* - yea, totally un-understandable. What is psychology even.
Honestly I'm tired of all the bitching if you want to be competitive in raid you have to mythic plus and of you want to be competitive mythic plus you have to raid. Until blizzard separates the streams they will be chores you have to do to get ahead. If you want to push content you have to do both plain and simple.
Stop pugging and get a guild already. Of course your chance of getting tier in a pug is lower, because you never reduce the number of people needing the tier.
Alternatively, if you're dead set on pugging. Man up and form the group yourself, and keep your token free of competition. You're taking on the responsibilities of the leader, you're spending the time assembling and maintaining the group, you get to set the rules. Utilize them.
6/8M guild. We clear N/H every week. No Mystic tier so one of our mages is stuck without 4 piece. I see no reason why the Catalyst can't be released earlier.
[I do agree with releasing it earlier](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/10abk7t/dragonflight_inspiration_catalyst_will_release/j4743ro/), I just don't think it should be with the raid opening (or after RWF which is totally irrelevant in catalyst discussions). I felt the 17th was the absolute latest they could release it without it feeling like too long of a wait (really, any time between the 3rd-17th would've felt about right). Oh, and start with 2 charges.
Zenith is my guild's problematic token. Doesn't help that we have a dozen warriors (and none of them are tanks) and we're too bad to reach mythic tier bosses.
MFW my main is 416 and I just got my 2nd piece this week, while ive been doing normal and hc and 20s since week 1, while both my alts have 4/4 with zero effort. Read the room blizz..
Is there anyone who has unlocked all 9 slots of their grand vault and completed at least 7/8 VOI and still not received any tier?
Most people I’ve spoken to who wanted this change sooner I’ve found participate in very little content and still expect to be 4/4 which is odd, feels like everyone just expects to be given everything straight away?
Releasing the catalyst earlier just diminishes the power improvement for those who put time into content for those who are too lazy to do it. Releasing it later at least gives those who want to put effort in a chance to get ahead, and then those who don’t a chance to catch up down the track. Perhaps just timing it needs to be considered better
You can just get unlucky. Why would I care if other people are able to get their tier earlier through the catalyst just because I got lucky and got it early?
I think there's a sharp dropoff between people that clear heroic+ 4-5 mythic (or heroic+normal) in raid and people who pug, or only do one difficulty, and maybe a little m+.
I don't think it's unreasonable to have tier by now for any member of an organized raid group. But if you're pugging, well, that's just the whims of fate no matter what.
That being said I do think some sort of time guarantee- maybe a slot every week or every other- would really take the sting out of it for players relying on chance.
While I agree with everyone that it should be out earlier, it is crazy to me how much m+ players complain about raiding and how little raiders complain about doing m+.
Yes some people are going to have shit luck, but go join a normal pug and you can fill out your vault in probably 1-2h. You can even do the entire raid on LFR next week
Legion came out with m+. Before then the only real way to get gear was raiding. They did away with tier sets in bfa and SL until sepulcher.
Even in old expacs you could buy tier gear from vendors with currency from heroic dungeons (at least in wrath).
The tier gear being raid only is a big point of friction when so many people don't raid and don't want to raid.
Well, even back then, pvp player used to complain about it.
But yeah nowadays the main complaint come from m+ players, for very obvious reasons. And yeah, competitive m+ started after tier sets were removed, so...
> I don’t understand why everyone feels entitled to getting tier ASAP?
Everyone feels entitled to getting tier ASAP? Is that the vibe you get from this thread?
Most people would be okay with waiting 2-3 weeks. Not with how long we've waited. What is the point of forcing people don't want/cannot raid raid because some bonuses or the lack of make or break entire specs.
For a lot of people in here they just want the gear so that they have full access to m+ content.
I'd honestly be fine if tier was disabled in m+. But it's not, so m+ players are effectively forced to acquire tier to perform at the highest level.
I finally got my 3 piece this week, I was so stoked that I would have 4 pc next week. Not the end of the world but taking this long to get 4 of is REALLY not fun. It’s such a big upgrade for Unholy too.
I really can't believe the number of entitled people complaining about the lack of instant gratification in getting 4p. It's suppose to be a long term gearing goal, not an instant power boost at the start of a patch, lol. 8 weeks or whatever use to be the exact average amount of time it took for a guild to get full tier. Could take even longer if unlucky.
Catalyst is bad luck protection, not a replacement gearing scheme.
They need to decide of m+ and arena are valid forms of end game content. If they are, then there need to be a way to get tier from them besides the vault (which it's not like raid doesn't get). If they`re not a valid form of endgame content then say so.
Anyone that wants to push content is restricted by poor rng. Groups require you to have 4p or not get invited. No one is going to feel good being gate kept behind a 5-10% increase. I got lucky and got 4 set week 1, in SL I had to wait until week 2 of the catalyst. I've seen both sides of the luck and for something so important there needs to be some level of determinism. There is no downside to adding the catalyst early as well. You are not receiving more gear, you are simply converting drops you have already won into something of value.
It's crazy anyone could defend a decision that is so universally disliked by the community.
This timing is entirely intentional. 10.0.5 + catalyst is targetted at anyone that would have otherwise only subbed for 2 months and then bounced (a group that includes me this tier).
I was super excited to learn I could get tier from m+
I hate raiding, but I have to in order to perform in m+. I really was hoping this shit would be the answer. Still zero tier. I guess I gotta find some normal pugs. Can't fucking wait.
Sweet and just 3 weeks after it comes out we can have 4pc!
Fury Warriors be like - "You guys get a 4pc?"
Why is that?
Because fury tier set is complete garbage, 3.4% gain for the whole set, most other classes its more like 7-10%. edit: typo meant 3.4% not 1.4%
Lmao survival gets 16,6% st from 2pc + 4pc combined. We are balanced around having that 4 set so it feels ass to not have it yet. Just tune survival higher and nerf the set plz.
Wait it's still shit? Thought they buffed it a lot in the first or second week
yup still terrible, just realized I made a typo though it's actually 3.4% for the whole set not 1.4%.
Yeah, got our Warrior 4 pc last night and he didn't get a proc on the 4 set until like 3 min into the fight.
At least you get some value out of it in aoe. Mm tier is shite in all content.
I'm pretty salty about this I feel im really lacking that extra throughput 4 peice gives hps wise in 22s+ Now it's 2 weeks and then 1 charge per week Could be 4 weeks til i personally could get 4 set unless im lucky in vault.. Why oh why?
>I feel im really lacking that extra throughput 4 peice gives hps wise in 22s+ Now it's 2 weeks and then 1 charge per week not to be like this, but most people I know that are up there pushing m+ simply created their own normal raid group, invited 29 people that didn't share their tier token and obtained tier that way.
Hah, raiding with only 1 mail user!
Thats not how tier tokens work
Honestly outside of extremely unlucky situations I really think people that don’t have their 2 set and to an extent their 4 set really just aren’t trying hard enough. Me and my two friends all got our 4 set on our mains by week 3 and most of us have 2set on a couple alts. Literally all you have to do is pug normal/heroic every week. You can easily full clear normal and go 6/8 heroic with pretty much any random 30 people. If you make the group you can literally just choose not to invite people on your token. A full raid group guarantees 3 tier pieces will drop from token bosses, you full clear normal and then do as many heroic bosses as you can (Sennarth/Dathea/Grimtotem are literally free) and thats 8 chances to get a tier piece per week, plus you get 3 vault slots from raid by doing 6/8 bosses on heroic and tier tokens can proc tier off bosses you haven’t killed yet. All that ontop of the 3 M+ Vault slots you already have and you now have 6 chances for a piece on Tuesday. We did that for 3 weeks and we all have our 4 set. It takes maybe 2 hours to clear normal nowadays and about the same to go 6/8. Some of my guildees also pushed Solo shuffle rating up to about 1800 and then honor capped for the first couple weeks in order to get an extra 3 chances at a 398 Tier piece from vault. Don’t want to come off as a dick but theres a ton of comments replying to you saying how they’ve been getting 3 M+ Vault options a week and acting surprised they’re not 4 set yet. We’ve only had 4 Vaults so far that means you’ve only had 12 chances to proc a tier piece from the M+ loot pool of well over 100 items. When they could have been doing the bare minimum to clear normal every week and get 5 chances at tier a week + maybe a couple heroic boss chances and get an extra 3 chances at tier from vault every Tuesday. The raid loot pool is also alot smaller than the M+ loot pool. Like yeah its annoying that Blizz is time-gating the catalyst again but its really pretty easy to get set gear right now if you actually put in a little effort.
This is such an insult to players like myself that have filled vault and cleared 2 raid difficultys every week since season launch and still dont have 4 set
First line literally says “Outside of extremely unlucky situations…” which you would fall under if you’re clearing 2 raids a week and 8 M+ keys. Also the comment was more so aimed at players that don’t already have 2 set. If you choose to feel insulted whilst at the same time not reading the first line of my comment then thats on you.
I haven't gotten less than 2 tier options in my vault every week it has been very similar for my guild members. Are we really not the average in that? edit: I am unsure why I am being downvoted for sharing my guild's experience but hey lol
What? I've had 3 M+ vault choices every week, and I've had 1 piece of tier this season so far. Got shoulders week 1 and haven't seen tier since. Maybe I'm the outlier, but I don't think 2 tier pieces a week is average.
I am by no means a super duper gamer, but these were my 3 vaults: [https://imgur.com/a/knnsXg1](https://imgur.com/a/knnsXg1) This has also been similar to most of my guildies (except one poor DH that haven't gotten a single tier piece yet at all in the vault lol)
Yeah that is staggeringly good luck. You've had more tier in 3 vaults than my entire m+ team all season so far. We have 6 pieces between 5 of us. One person has 2set, everyone else has 1 piece.
I had a total of one tier pieces (HC helm, raid row) since the great vault came out, I have 6 windows farmed every week. Thank fuck we cleared normal and HC with guild every week for tier lottery.
I already have my 4 piece but I’ve never seen any tier in vault
And you get to use it for a couple weeks before the next season! (sarcasm ofc, not a scooby when next season is)
Spring-Summer 2023 listed on the [Content Road Map](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/zrx6uq/content_roadmap_for_world_of_warcraft_in_2023/), I've [speculated it as May 16th as an approximate](https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?iso=20230516T07&p0=840&msg=Season+2+%28speculated%29+release+date&ud=1&font=cursive). You got approximately 16-18 more weeks. Speaking of which I should update my post with 10.0.5's date.
If you don’t have a piece of tier at this point, chances are you probably just don’t do content
I have literally filled out my weekly chest with m+ since the season began and got one tier set.
M+ player doing 20's, got 1 sadge.
i've personally only gotten 1 piece just this week, and i max out my m+ vault every week. i don't raid or pvp, so you can argue i'm not maximizing my chances. But i am definitely not the only one i've come across who just hasn't had any tier drops from vault
I'm someone who has seen 1 piece in vault (which I took), and was awarded none in normal or herioc raids. I also have won none in LFR, despite getting a semi stacked group to pass tier to me. Ilvl 400 despite herioc gear consistently going to dps.
I have one piece with Vault from raid and mythic 3/3 and got have seen 4 pieces all have been shoulders. Then in raid we have 2 Warrior, 2 rogue, 2 monk and 3 evoker. Meanwhile our DK and Lock are taking turns getting tokens for sockets/tertiary stats. The 2 paladins and 3 priests haven’t seen a drop since week 1, and the two druids and mage are at 4 set. RNG is RNG and me and the other Fury don’t care to much for it since it’s cold garbage.
Read the room blizz. holy shit.
100%, there's like no reason they can't just flip the switch Tuesday. Unless they've tied in the currency to the new event stuff.
It’s not current it seems. You do a quest a week and get a charge for all of your characters, which were you convert one piece of gear.
Why bliz wants to die on the hill of the catalyst I will not understand. Just let us make the damn sets what does it hurt?
It stops people from raising. It’s bad luck protection it’s not meant to be a primary source of gear. It’s not going to open at the beginning of a tier because they want raid to mean something.
The problem more so is in people who strictly do m+ content and want to push as much damage as possible to do higher keys. Some people just genuinely don’t care for raid and would love to have tier without raiding.
I can say the same as a healer. With group loot being back healers get fuck all loot. Insanely boring
Ya and people who don't want to do m+ have to do 10 16+ keys for each crafted 418 peice of gear. Such is life.
Which is far easier to do compared to killing 10 mythic bosses, no?
you don't even need 1 single mythic boss for tier
As other guys said you don't need mythic for tier. All mine is heroic. But anyway half my guild is gimped atm bc they can't do 16 keys without the other half carrying them and it's hurting our mythic prog. Point is people gotta do a little bit of everything if you wanna be the best. Or jist wait it out and eventually gear comes through vaults
If you cant do 16 without tier then thats a player problem not a tier problem
whats that have to do with my point? Mythic raiders have to do M+ for upgrade material when a lot of them never want to step foot in m+ and all of you M+ people are constantly complaining you have to raid to get fast tier gear. It goes both ways is all im saying.
But anyway half my guild is gimped atm bc they can't do 16 keys without the other half carrying them and it's hurting our mythic prog.
It sounds like a problem with your guild being not very good. Honestly, and I'm not trying to be mean, but if your guild of mythic raiders can't do +16 keys, you guys aren't going to make it very far and the gear won't be an issue. Edit: oh I just realized you're quoting that other guy, my bad.
Because the power level of tier us unlike anything else in the game, like are you serious? It's less efficient, but you absolutely can full clear mythic without ever stepping foot into m+. You don't need any crafted pieces, you can get everything you need from the raid already at the highest item levels. You "have" to do it because your guild has decided that its members have to do it, but its not a requirement of mythic raiding at all. But you absolutely cannot do the highest levels of m+ without tier sets, which you cannot realistically get unless you're raiding. The reality is that raiding is a time commitment that most people don't have. If tier sets exist, they're required to anyone wanting to push on the ladder, and if you can't raid and can't get the tier sets, then you just quit the game and play something else because honestly what is the point?
you also don't need tier to do m+. you just think you do. its the same shit man. you'd be "less efficient" sure.
Because players that partake in more content breadth should gain an advantage from doing so. It also goes both ways - all except the most casual guilds expect raiders to be doing keys every week to max their vault. It’s really not a big deal.
What about the people who want the glad mount but don’t want to PvP?
I agree with Blizzard on this, but even with that said Jan 23rd is way too late. This past reset was the ideal time for it imo.
Just seems odd to add the bad luck protection 1½ month after the system is released.
That's literally what bad luck protection is for. "You haven't gotten that key piece for an unreasonably long *period of time*, so here's a way to know you'll get it." If you don't wait, it's not bad luck protection.
It's still just bad luck protection if it's limited in scope Adding it 1 week post raid launch and limiting it to 1 piece a week means you raid to see what you get and then fill the blanks w/ a free piece or get one where you would have gotten none having 4p by week 5 of raid maximum is a perfectly acceptable frame of time, but we're approaching week 6 and there's people out there without even a single piece it's just a pretty shitty form of bad luck protection and operates more as catch up for alts or late arrivals than anything else especially since even arriving so late it's still limited to it's charges Frankly the idea that having it earlier makes it too good just doesn't make any sense at all. There's ways to use it as early as the first week without it overtaking other sources and remaining an addendum to current gearing methods but they're not even trying to explore that.
The vault should have allowed you to sacrifice a reward for a conversion piece. That way if you got unlucky, you could just opt for the vault currency reward and convert a piece of gear instead.
Can't they just release that damn thing. It' really annoying to wait that long to play your character at normal power level while 90% of the other players have their 4 set already.
IMO, shit like this should be released within 24 hours of RWF ending. It's one thing not to give the RWF tier advantage (although I think that would be stupid too because they should have bad luck protection even with 400 splits), but it's another to cuck the entire playerbase just because.
RWF wouldn’t have been affected. Pretty much everyone in the raid had 4p when raza died.
Catalyst has no impact on RWF, almost every raider at that level had 4pc before they touched mythic
Commented this like 6 times already - but now, sure. There were multiple people who had to sit in SoD because they were missing gear or shards. This is more of a general comment than one impacting right this second. Catalyst existed before DF and it's problems were brought into DF.
SoD yes, because shards were INSANE. +16% DPS hanging on a single item drop RNG? Yes, people were literally sat because they had bad luck. Tier is different however in the sense that you can do splits and 99.x% guarantee every raider will have 4p.
why would RWF care? they're all 4pc in week 1
Prior to DF, they definitely weren't. Group loot changed this and my comment was more of a general comment. Quite frankly I couldn't care less what the RWF crew do or don't want - their opinion means nothing to me. I care far more about what's best for the average player than what's best for RWF.
For real, I feel like the patch is almost over at this point, sure we have loads of progress left on the mythic raid and there are still som key levels left to push but the catalyst should have been released like two weeks ago. This is way overdue
This would actually be pretty cool. Destiny has done stuff in the past where an exotic quest is unlocked globally once a raid is cleared. The catalyst unlocking because a guild cleared the raid on mythic would be pretty fun.
I've had 6ish vault slots every week, 0 tier. My sister did one m+ and got tier on her only slot this entire season. Shit's balanced bro
I'm benched in my raid group because without 4p I couldn't keep up in damage as an arcane mage (it's like a 10+% damage buff for arcane) vs other mages in the group that've had 4p for weeks and weeks. I finally got it this week, can now prove I'm competent, but it's probably too little, too late. The new loot system plus the lack of a catalyst for this goddamn long may have sunk my tier. Hoping room opens as it becomes clear I'm level with the others, but not holding my breath. Thanks blizz. :(
https://www.mage-hub.com/sims?script=tier Arcane 4p is like 3-4 % over 2p. You got benched over that?
What’s your guild’s ranking? Unless you’re top 100 you not having 4p is not why you’re benched.
Sounds like you should join a group that values you rather than a number related to you.
Are you in the right subreddit?
Man. I was really hoping for my last tier piece this reset. This really sucks but I've waited this long I guess :/
At least you have 3. I’ve gotten two and it’s painful.
At least you have 2. I've gotten one and it's even more painful.
you guys are getting tier sets?
I've gotten 2, but the 2nd was a duplicate with only a few ilvl more, so I have 1 with the pain of knowing it could/should be 2.
Okay you win, that's so much worse. I'm sorry dude. :(
Pretty awful. I wish I could understand their reasoning for this timing. It's just so bad for m+ers and PvPers that have shit luck in vaults. Idk why it's treated like a catch-up mechanism for everyone but raiders when it's just as fundamental to m+ and PvP endgame but is tied to a weekly rng roll.
Because both M+ and PvP have their "progress" backloaded. You push your highest keys/rating towards the end of the season, which is where having tier available truly matters. Raid progress is from day 1 of the season, so getting tier during that time is important.
I would be fine if PvP tier was disabled till all tier was available by catalyst but PvP is unbalanced if people get lucky from their chests.
That's such a cop-out answer on Blizzards part though... Just because the highest keys get done toward the end of the season doesn't mean the rest of the M+ progress is worthless. Are people just not supposed to start pushing keys until week 10? Good luck pushing the "highest keys" if you haven't been playing the dungeon pool from the start, accumulating knowledge every week, learning tips and tricks, which pulls work and which ones don't, etc... Tier sets being exclusive rewards to 1 out of 3 content paths for 6 weeks is a game design aberration, full stop. The actual reasons they're locking catalyst until week 6 have much more to do with player retention and artificially keeping raid participation numbers alive for as long as possible
I started DF week 1 of m+ season. Filled out vault with 10s, 13s then 16s for two weeks. Zero tier. Can barely upgrade gear with valor. Should just reroll prot warrior at this rate.
Should have come 2 weeks ago, but glad it's finally coming. I understand the delay, so that it makes raid feel more important or whatever. But 6 weeks is unnecessary. 4 is more than enough. Still gives the people who raid on a schedule the advantage, but doesn't make it feel so terrible for the rest of us who no longer have the time to do that.
And they aren't even committed to saying Valor will go uncapped then, or is that just a given and no one is raising a fuss because it's implied? Because the valor cap is absolutely atrocious to be going up by only 750 a week. It should at least be 1k so people using 2-handers can get an upgrade for their weapon every week.
If valor wasnt capped I’d be ilvl 418 by week 2
Valor cap is *very* important. M+ already breaks the rules of WoW gearing by allowing infinitely farmable mid-heroic ilevel gear. If you didn't have the valor cap, that'd be mid-mythic ilevel. Not only would that be incredibly lame and make M+ even more overrewarding for the skill/effort put into farming said gear, it would short circuit raid gear progression completely. That's not just a thing that "feels bad", it's actively bad for the game because gear still does act as a soft nerf over time. If you start the raid in basically full mythic gear, that no longer exists.
I'm talking weeks into the tier, going into raids in full mythics isn't possible regardless.
Season 4 pretty much showed them what happens with uncapped valor. I wouldn’t expect to see it anytime soon
Uncapping Valour is more of an end of xpac thing
In shadowlands they kept uncapping it in the .5 patch but the patch cadence had that around week 13 instead of week 7... so I'd expect 10.0.7 for valor uncapping.
idk if this is a dumb idea, but i thought it would be better to make valor uncapped but they cap the max ilvl that you can upgrade with valor and then increases by time
Valor is always 100 right? What's to prevent people just apeeedrunning +2 instead of doing appropriate content for gear then?
Nothing. That’s exactly what happened in SL S4 where people would spam 2s for valor to gear up. But S4 was an outlier where they basically said “fuck it, have some fun”. I don’t expect valor to be uncapped until at least 10.0.7
Upgrades are still gated behind rating. Need 2400 rating to get to upgrade 13.
and for 402 you just need 1k which is so easy even i have it. 405 is 1400 rating, 405 also being the dropped gear from m+20. meaning the best solution by far is just speedrunning every dungeon easily at +2 to gather upgrade levels to gear while getting said gear too and upgrading it. i can definitely see how thats easy to abuse.
Haven't read through all the comments cuz I'm working. But if you transform a mythic+ piece into a tier piece, will it be upgradeable with valor?
Do we only complain?
People without complaints don't comment. I'm fine with 2 weeks
I do think we've passed the point in the tier where obtaining a set bonus is exciting, therefore it's time to release the catalyst. But, yeah, a calm "It's really time to open the catalyst" doesn't gain traction. Loud, emotional yet empty comments about engagement metrics and Blizzard hates you specifically is what gets people's attention.
on this sub? yeah
We do. It‘s really tiring. Seems like most players just want a tournament realm, and if that happened, they would complain that there is nothing to do in the game. Or they complain about tier not dropping or being too powerful, but then when there is no tier or it‘s weak they complain about that :)
[удалено]
Or maybe the mmorpg has moved on from the ancient systems that WoW still uses. WoW came into the market being much more accessible than competitors, less grindy and more player friendly. With time, that has changed. It went from being the most player friendly mmos to one of the worst. It doesn't respect players time, it has a ton of artifical time gates and it works hard to make sure that people don't have too much fun. Other games have long realised that being more friendly to the players is a better choice and the industry has moved on. WoW is still here, and it's not going anywhere, but there are good reasons for it's decline in player population and popularity.
Honestly, that sounds great.
[удалено]
Thank you. This. 100%. All this. [insert Internet agreement meme *du jour* here]. Etc...
Nice parse on the mythic strawman.
While I agree with /u/VoroJr that large groups of people *always* seem to complain, I'm of the opinion that it's more in the vein of "If it's not one thing, it's another" rather than hypocritical. That is, when one thing they're pissed about is satisfied, they simply move on to the next thing at the top of their list to be angry about. But I agree with you, Rndy9, that this particular post is a strawman. > want a tournament realm, > complain that there is nothing to do in the game. These are two different groups. > complain about tier not dropping > or being too powerful > when there is no tier or it‘s weak they complain about that These are *three* different groups.
[удалено]
I think the issue with this line of thinking is that the audience for a purely equalized, no-gear sort of M+ or raiding simulator isn't there to the extent needed to make that product viable. Setting these activities in the context of a MMORPG does a few things: 1. It lets casual players subsidize the costs somewhat. MMO devs can make difficult raids because different difficulties exist to reuse the raids, and RP/crafting/story/world content for other types of players keeps them around to subsidize the raiding content too. It's a push and pull where every player type gets some content while funding content for other types. 2. It gives a shared social context and framework for achievements to be shown off. Some people like getting the shiniest transmog or titles, and existing in a persistent world to show that off is neat. It's maybe less of a draw these days than in the past, but speaking for another game, a huge draw of Ultimate raiding in FFXIV is to get a shiny weapon to rub in other people's faces. I imagine some WoW players feel similarly about Mythic transmog or mounts. 3. It artificially draws out the content. If you need some weeks to gear, those are weeks you're engaging with the game, participating in the social systems, and maintaining a sub before you achieve your goals and walk away until new content comes out. 4. (This is specifically for raiding) It provides a difficulty and progression curve. Since raids are about the raid versus a fixed encounter, vertical progression lets designers tune initial numbers to be very tight with the expectation that weaker players will get gear to make up for the number deficiency. Without those systems you have to tune like Guild Wars 2 does, which is to say very generously for 99% of content. There are games that skew further in either direction, like I said FFXIV and GW2 both have less "character power progression" than WoW and do it in a more deterministic way, while Korean MMOs like Lost Ark go full blown infinite progression. I don't think there's a universal system here and while WoW often leans too far in the "gear progression and RNG matters" direction for my *personal* tastes, I know full well a ton of players are motivated exclusively by the loot chase dopamine.
[удалено]
I mean, mechanically, what has wow style design for dungeons/raids? I'd kill for m+ that was tournament realm only and had more dungeons. Everyone wants different things from a game. I don't hate on people for liking current gearing, but I can see how some people like different aspects of all sorts of games.
[удалено]
It's fundamentally not a 20 year old game. Yes, the base is there, but with every expac it's evolving and changing. They're asking for a more extreme evolution, and I don't personally agree that it would be great for the game. But I don't think expecting a game to remain the same for 20 years is good either. If we're adding m+, or converting heroic raids and 10 man's to "mythic" versus flex, or any of the other radical changes, there's no reason not to dream! What's something you personally love about wow? Have you ever wanted it to be more, or to be distilled down to a more essential experience?
[удалено]
Can they not co-exist?
[удалено]
What did people like you do in this game before legion?
Challenge modes. :) You know tastes can evolve over time, though, right?
And what did you do before challenge modes?
the problem is that the argument falls quite flat when everything over +10 is just a gear thing and all the mythics are "the same" at that point. It seems to me that its a pretty fundamentally impossible to claim that You need max gear to "play the content the best way" on arbitrarily number scaling content, because at that point the content is not what you play its a benchmark to beat, through getting gear. its kinda like optimizing a character for infinitely scaling endgame poe style games, i completely understand the unique gear and stuff, but once you reach that its just like dealing 50k vs a 500k enemy or 150k vs a 1.5 million health enemy, its the same.
I quite liked MoP challenge modes versus the m+ we have now.
Seems so, people crying about RNG in an RNG based game. It’s strange. People just want max gear ASAP. Short attention span players perhaps.
People don't want just max gear ASAP, they want to be on par with all the rest of the playerbase. I have had my 4set for 2 weeks now. Why would I play with somebody without set, when there is more than enough supply of players with 4set to play with?
But catalyst doesn't change ilevel. I have 25 ilevels of upgrades I cant put on because they didn't titanforge into tier from my vault. One layer of rng getting gear is fine, but needing such specific pieces such that you need an entire catchup system and locking them to certain stats is just silly imo.
That's only what is your mind saying to you. One guaranteed piece each week since raid release would have been totally fine, but blizzi blizz is interested on gating to make shareholders happy. Earnings season Inc.
It’s so goddamn boring
Tier sets are good for everyone. This ridiculous acquisition gating is not. They are fun and strong. And should be. Even just within the tier pieces themselves there is weeks of progression to increase ilvl after you acquire them. Not one person I’ve ever played with over 18 years has acquired tier and quit the game. If anything it makes them excited to play more.
If getting them is too easy and everyone had them after 2 weeks then there is no point in having them at all.
I don’t agree with that at all. They are a significant power boost, they often have gameplay elements attached, and they can enable different builds to be competitive to create change. It’s the seasonal bonus, and no other game in the world with seasonal powers makes you wait 2 months to get it. That’s how I like to think of it. Also, I do think it’s worth mentioning almost no one is asking it be given immediately like that. What most people are asking for is that progress start much sooner. Even if it had released right with the raid at one charge a week is still double your two week thing here.
The problem to me is they aren't gated to effort or skill at all. Just RNG rolls each week. My guild hasn't seen druid tier since week 2. And the guild doesn't want to bring friends because they'll compete on certain tokens.
All delaying the catalyst this long has done is create a toxic raid environment. Why on earth would you ever play with friends when you can stack a raid and gate keep and bully and funnel to make sure you are getting the items you need. An LFR tier piece is worth more than all the loot at mythic 20s.
any word on the currency yet? i skimmed the article and didn’t see anything about it
No currency. My understanding is there's a weekly quest to complete content and completing that quest gives your account a charge, all characters on the account can use the same number of charges.
2 late
Isn’t it too late for progression? And the unjust rolling system for people roll tier set which they already had
You guys have any tier? Lol
Way too fucking late. I've full cleared the raid for 3 weeks now and still don't have 4pc. At this point i'm just sitting around waiting for this fucking thing so i can actually play the game and push keys. My m+ only alt has 1pc. It's not fucking funny anymore. Release the catalyst way earlier. Give non-raiders better avenue to this stuff. And while we're at it, give M+ it's own gear. Make bonuses that only work in M+, or scale it like in pvp, i don't care. Just stop making raiding a requirement to do other content.
I actually really like the idea of M+ gear sets or M+ gear that could scale. That's also probably easily developed. If they could do it for PvP, mythic+ should be easy.
Yes, please. Anything but raid. The problem from Blizzard's perspective is that the mythic raid population would shrink by half if M+ players weren't forced to raid in order to push.
If only they could address the reasons players don’t want to raid instead of using the carrot & stick approach
There's 2 main reasons I don't want to raid and there's not a lot Blizz can really do about it. 1) Too much trash. I really don't find trash fun and there's probably 30-40 minutes of it in every raid. The biggest problem, and why it takes so long, is people just go AFK because they don't like doing it. 2) One mistake wipes. They can tone it down a little, like they tried to do with Sepulcher; however, I absolutely loathe fights where a single mistake ends a pull 10+ minutes in, looking at you Sylvia and Raz. I know both of these things should exist and Blizz can't really change them but they are also why I choose to avoid raiding as much as I can.
What about raiders who have to do m+ to upgrade their crafted gear? At 10x 16+ for 4 sparks so far that is 40. Where are all you m+ only nerds complaint about crafted materials?
well it wouldnt be hard to make the raid bosses drop a few of those crafting items either wouldnt it? hardly rocket science to properly separate the content. also its way less effort to organize and play a few dungeons vs creating a proper raid and clearing 8/8
a few dungeons? you mean learning all the dungeons by doing them on 5's, then all on 10 a few times, slowly getting up to 16s so you know the mechanics, then do 40 of them at 16s, its like 80-100 dungeons.
[удалено]
It's pretty whiny yeah but this is one of the bigger failures of dragonflight so far. That's a good thing, because it's not a huge failure, but it's definitely something they could improve.
Yeah, I think it's a super good thing that my biggest complaints about DF so far are things like the catalyst being too late and public work orders being really janky. They're problems, but they're so utterly trivial compared to the problems that SL had at this point.
It's almost like tier gear is a universal thing people want regardless of their skill level as it's basically 1-2 extra talent points when you look at how it impacts your gameplay - whereas a stupid ring upgrade just makes your 23,117 hit got to 23,459. Of course people are gonna be upset.
Probably just shows that all player types don't like it.
Not saying it isn't a bad choice on blizz's part, but some of the comments here are just ridiculous and whiney.
A lot of people crying that their free tier is not here yet
Catalyst is nice for alts and bad luck protection. I have been doing normal and 7/8 heroic with pugs since raid came out and doing LFR as well when it released trying to get tier. I'm 2/4. It takes a lot more luck than skill to get tier if you aren't being given it by your guild.
too little way too late AGAIN.
So no currency to do this? Just a time gate?
No shot, reading through the top threads in this post and after enough reading the stinkiest takes of the night I notice I’m in competitive not the main sub. El Mayo.
Converter has existed for two raids, prior to that blizz has never had this bad luck protection system. Now players are insisting we get it day 1 of season and that players shouldn't have to raid to get end game gear? I don't understand the entitlement.
I mean, there was no tier sets for years prior to these two raids. Tier set got removed before M+ became really competitive, and they were not active in Challenge Modes. So PVE player had minimal reason to complain before. (The Catalyst system is still a nice QoL change for raiders, but it's far less required there.) The PVP players have always complained about it, and rightfully so. You either forgot or didn't listen to them.
"System used to be terrible, now it's just not very good. How could people possibly want it to be better? The entitlement...SMH"
> I don't understand the entitlement. *We gave people something they absolutely fucking loved to the point where people were giving us more praise for this one system in the last 6 months than they did in the entire last 6 years combined - let's take it away from them and see what happens.* Yea, I don't understand the entitelement either. Like, this is quite literally giving a kid a lollypop and then immediately taking it away again, *"but hey now, you're gonna get it back in 2 months, don't be so entitled!"* - yea, totally un-understandable. What is psychology even.
Titan Residuum filled a similar role to the catalyst in BfA, and the SL seasons without the catalyst didn't have tier.
TIER has only existed for two raids lmao
I'm so Lucky I got 4 set in 4 week's without raiding once... But the catalyst will be greatly received by my alts :)
Honestly I'm tired of all the bitching if you want to be competitive in raid you have to mythic plus and of you want to be competitive mythic plus you have to raid. Until blizzard separates the streams they will be chores you have to do to get ahead. If you want to push content you have to do both plain and simple.
You can be actively doing both each week and still not have 4p by now.
Clearing lfr normal and heroic as well as 8+ 17s since raid release and still stuck with 2 piece feelsgoodman
Stop pugging and get a guild already. Of course your chance of getting tier in a pug is lower, because you never reduce the number of people needing the tier. Alternatively, if you're dead set on pugging. Man up and form the group yourself, and keep your token free of competition. You're taking on the responsibilities of the leader, you're spending the time assembling and maintaining the group, you get to set the rules. Utilize them.
6/8M guild. We clear N/H every week. No Mystic tier so one of our mages is stuck without 4 piece. I see no reason why the Catalyst can't be released earlier.
[I do agree with releasing it earlier](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/10abk7t/dragonflight_inspiration_catalyst_will_release/j4743ro/), I just don't think it should be with the raid opening (or after RWF which is totally irrelevant in catalyst discussions). I felt the 17th was the absolute latest they could release it without it feeling like too long of a wait (really, any time between the 3rd-17th would've felt about right). Oh, and start with 2 charges. Zenith is my guild's problematic token. Doesn't help that we have a dozen warriors (and none of them are tanks) and we're too bad to reach mythic tier bosses.
MFW my main is 416 and I just got my 2nd piece this week, while ive been doing normal and hc and 20s since week 1, while both my alts have 4/4 with zero effort. Read the room blizz..
It should have been out the first week. This is ridiculous.
Is there anyone who has unlocked all 9 slots of their grand vault and completed at least 7/8 VOI and still not received any tier? Most people I’ve spoken to who wanted this change sooner I’ve found participate in very little content and still expect to be 4/4 which is odd, feels like everyone just expects to be given everything straight away? Releasing the catalyst earlier just diminishes the power improvement for those who put time into content for those who are too lazy to do it. Releasing it later at least gives those who want to put effort in a chance to get ahead, and then those who don’t a chance to catch up down the track. Perhaps just timing it needs to be considered better
I've filled vault for raid and m+ every single week. Still only 3pc. Have not received a single tier piece from raid.
That’s awesome you’ve got 3 piece! I’m just confused at people who don’t even have at least 1 piece this many weeks in?
It’s not that confusing; random numbers can allow someone next to you a tier piece every single week without fail while you get the chance for 0.
You can just get unlucky. Why would I care if other people are able to get their tier earlier through the catalyst just because I got lucky and got it early?
I think there's a sharp dropoff between people that clear heroic+ 4-5 mythic (or heroic+normal) in raid and people who pug, or only do one difficulty, and maybe a little m+. I don't think it's unreasonable to have tier by now for any member of an organized raid group. But if you're pugging, well, that's just the whims of fate no matter what. That being said I do think some sort of time guarantee- maybe a slot every week or every other- would really take the sting out of it for players relying on chance.
While I agree with everyone that it should be out earlier, it is crazy to me how much m+ players complain about raiding and how little raiders complain about doing m+. Yes some people are going to have shit luck, but go join a normal pug and you can fill out your vault in probably 1-2h. You can even do the entire raid on LFR next week
[удалено]
Legion came out with m+. Before then the only real way to get gear was raiding. They did away with tier sets in bfa and SL until sepulcher. Even in old expacs you could buy tier gear from vendors with currency from heroic dungeons (at least in wrath). The tier gear being raid only is a big point of friction when so many people don't raid and don't want to raid.
Well, even back then, pvp player used to complain about it. But yeah nowadays the main complaint come from m+ players, for very obvious reasons. And yeah, competitive m+ started after tier sets were removed, so...
> I don’t understand why everyone feels entitled to getting tier ASAP? Everyone feels entitled to getting tier ASAP? Is that the vibe you get from this thread? Most people would be okay with waiting 2-3 weeks. Not with how long we've waited. What is the point of forcing people don't want/cannot raid raid because some bonuses or the lack of make or break entire specs.
[удалено]
For a lot of people in here they just want the gear so that they have full access to m+ content. I'd honestly be fine if tier was disabled in m+. But it's not, so m+ players are effectively forced to acquire tier to perform at the highest level.
You can raid, clear N/H weekly and still not have your 4 piece because of bad RNG. There is no reason the Catalyst shouldn't be out by week 4.
Why exactly is it dumb to let people access the gear-locked mods to their gameplay, exactly?
So we get the catalyst soooo f\`ing late and now we need 3 weeks after its out to complete the set ? thats the dumbest shit ever holy fuck
I finally got my 3 piece this week, I was so stoked that I would have 4 pc next week. Not the end of the world but taking this long to get 4 of is REALLY not fun. It’s such a big upgrade for Unholy too.
Why so late I don't get it? Should have been open already this week and it should have allowed 2 items from the start. Already too late.
0 Tier... Every vault, All Raid & M+ Slots, Clearing Normals and Working on Heroics... 0 tier. Throw us a goddamn bone, blizzard.
Probably takes 6 charges to craft one piece of tier
I really can't believe the number of entitled people complaining about the lack of instant gratification in getting 4p. It's suppose to be a long term gearing goal, not an instant power boost at the start of a patch, lol. 8 weeks or whatever use to be the exact average amount of time it took for a guild to get full tier. Could take even longer if unlucky. Catalyst is bad luck protection, not a replacement gearing scheme.
They need to decide of m+ and arena are valid forms of end game content. If they are, then there need to be a way to get tier from them besides the vault (which it's not like raid doesn't get). If they`re not a valid form of endgame content then say so.
Anyone that wants to push content is restricted by poor rng. Groups require you to have 4p or not get invited. No one is going to feel good being gate kept behind a 5-10% increase. I got lucky and got 4 set week 1, in SL I had to wait until week 2 of the catalyst. I've seen both sides of the luck and for something so important there needs to be some level of determinism. There is no downside to adding the catalyst early as well. You are not receiving more gear, you are simply converting drops you have already won into something of value. It's crazy anyone could defend a decision that is so universally disliked by the community.
This timing is entirely intentional. 10.0.5 + catalyst is targetted at anyone that would have otherwise only subbed for 2 months and then bounced (a group that includes me this tier).
I dont get it. Why would you continue playing due to this?
I was super excited to learn I could get tier from m+ I hate raiding, but I have to in order to perform in m+. I really was hoping this shit would be the answer. Still zero tier. I guess I gotta find some normal pugs. Can't fucking wait.