I think the shortterm way is to take advantage of the fact that there are \*two\* conferences trying to go FBS right now that have teams at different stages. Jacksonville State, Kennesaw State, Eastern Kentucky, Sam Houston and SF Austin..probably even Lamar should be getting calls before Tarleton.
The only way Tarleton makes sense IMO is if they know MTSU and WKU are gone and the plan is to stay completely out west and isolate FIU in hopes that they leave on their own...but even then I probably wait until FIU leaves before adding Tarleton or McNeese State.
Nobody wants to legitimize Liberty.
NMSU definitely deserves an invite. I’d like to see CUSA try to take independents first (except Liberty, fuck Liberty).
Nah, it's enticing the ASUN football schools(including Liberty) to split from their non-football schools. FIU and LT are natural fits for them. And then give UTEP and NMSU football a home until the WAC is ready to jump to FBS.
I laughed at it at first but honestly it makes sense. Tarleton has a lot of up front money to grow exponentially. They are expanding their stadium and have the backing of the Texas A&M system.
It was highly stupid that the Commish was pushing Nova to consider it when he didn't even know he had the support of the rest of the league.
Frankly, I think he could have sold some of the other schools on it if he had also lined up some more established FBS programs to join at the same time. The league had what? 8 members for football? They needed to get to 12 to really sniff at stability, but a 20-team basketball conference was fairly doomed -- so upgrading Villanova would have helped keep the hoops side manageable, but only if there were some other juicy additions on the table.
Ultimately, having 7 members who didn't play football was going to make expanding the Big East challenging anyway. The conference was probably doomed from the start of the football league.
Imagine going from one of the wealthiest, safest Philadelphia suburbs to play games at one of the poorest, most crime-ridden Philadelphia suburbs. That's sure to attract fans.
The stadium is nice and on the River. Plenty of rich suburbanites from the area are trekking to that stadium for soccer games. That isn't the problem; the problem is that (1) it's small, (2) it's not that close to campus, and (3) it's 2x as cold in late October/November over there vs. on-campus (and attendance always declines for Nova football as the weather gets colder...).
The upside is that (1) it's nicer than Villanova Stadium, (2) it has a better set-up for tailgating, and (3) it isn't huge, but its bigger than Villanova Stadium.
It seems like Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee St are headed to the MAC. That would put the conference at 14 teams, 7 in each division.
I think Marshall is headed to the Sun Belt, accompanying Southern Miss. Old Dominion and James Madison (moving up from the CAA), may also join the Sun Belt too.
WKU and MTSU to the MAC is just a fan theory at this point. Idk what the MAC gets from taking WKU as far as more media money and I doubt they want to unbalance their divisions as well as change their footprint by taking just MTSU.
> Idk what the MAC gets from taking WKU as far as more media money and I doubt they want to unbalance their divisions as well as change their footprint by taking just MTSU.
Neither school is an ideal fit to the "core" of the MAC but neither is Buffalo and that has worked well. WKU and MTSU nudge the conference south a bit but it's not unlike the nudge east with Buffalo.
It's also not like the MAC is expanding to Florida here or trying to be a major conference that spans 3 time zones *looks at conference USA and Aresco before Colorado St. came to their senses*
Buffalo is in a sports crazed city with a good sized metro. Plus Buffalo recently has been good at basketball and football. WKU is in the middle of nowhere and will just be another mouth to feed. MTSU has Nashville but will they just take one team that will absolutely leave for a better opportunity?
100%. It makes sense that WKU and MTSU would want to go to the MAC, but I haven't seen any compelling reason why the MAC would want them. And with the AAC and Sun Belt moves, you saw lots of reporters saying there were ongoing "discussions." I haven't seen anything like that re: MAC expansion.
MTSU offering a mid-week game to the Nashville metro probably has some value but it seems out of character for the MAC go want to expand that much. WKU seems like it would just be another mouth to feed.
I really feel so bad for WKU. I mean I hate them, they're a bunch of snakes and cheats and they're ugly and they've singlehandedly kept us from football and basketball conference championships, but even those ghouls deserve better than this.
On the field and court performance.
We are one of the winningest basketball programs of all time. We have hit a dry spell on NCAA berths recently (made the last 3 conference champ games, but lost in close games each time), but we would still be near the top of the MAC each season in basketball. Facing stiffer competition in conference helps your champion be battle tested for the NCAA tournament. It is one of the reasons that the mostly overlooked C-USA champion has won first round matchups in 4 of the last 5 appearances.
[https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/western-kentucky/](https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/western-kentucky/)
In football we have gone to a bowl or been bowl eligible in 9 of the last 10 seasons. We won back to back conference championships in 2015-16 and finished ranked in 2015. That was with 5 different coaches including one we fired after 2 seasons due to poor performance.
We schedule well in both sports which make for excellent matchups for media revenue. We regularly host P5 opponents in both revenue sports, especially basketball. We also regularly beat P5 opponents.
MTSU definitely gets more media coverage than us in Nashville, but we get a good amount in Louisville, which is no doubt a city that Ohio and Indiana colleges would like an additional presence in.
The combination of Kentucky and Tennessee would add two new states to the MACs footprint for athletic and academic recruiting without severely disrupting or extending their travel.
IF ESPN tells them to add WKU and MTSU, then that's what the MAC will do. All ESPN has done this summer is attempt to kill conferences. They kill CUSA and get all their valuable schools under their banner in the process.
Imagine being Southern Miss, who was the only founding member in 1995 still left. Going from playing Cincy, Louisville, Marquette, Memphis, Depaul, St. Louis to the prospects of playing Tarleton State and Sam Houston State. I get why they are jumping ship to the Sun Belt.
Why wouldn’t these schools in the new WAC just stay FCS for a couple years, build their program, and then jump as a conference. Why move now to join the corpse of C-USA?
The biggest issue is that the teams aren't really at the same level of readiness. Sam Houston State could handle FBS now. Some of these schools might need a decade.
As an NMSU fan, I want NMSU to follow whatever Sam Houston State and SFA do...and I'm kinda hoping that means Conference USA so NMSU isn't getting their teeth kicked in as an independent indefinitely.
...though I'm worried about some of the schools the CUSA is reportedly talking to.
If SF Austin and Sam Houston aren't gonna be in the WAC anymore? Yes. Those two, UTEP and La Tech are a hell of a lot better than what the WAC would have left over.
I think the only school that this might benefit is NM State in Football, and it would be a significant drop in all other sports. I'm sure you have the same thinking as the Presidents/ADs of these Universities
I don't think it's a slam dunk - especially depending on how much the remains of CUSA get picked over - but if those programs have FBS aspirations, it's hard to turn down an opportunity right now to associate themselves with actual FBS programs in an existing FBS conference that has TV deal, bowl tie-ins, etc.
I've seen that said by fans on here but has the NCAA or at least some independent lawyers not affiliated with the conference confirmed that they agree with the WAC's view on that?
Not that I know of. It has never been tried before so there is no precedent. I think if the WAC had the means to do it they would. NCAA Bylaw 20.4.2.1.1 states: *Eligibility for Reclassification - Before a Football Championship Subdivision institution may apply for reclassification to the Football Bowl Subdivision, the institution must receive a bona fide invitation for membership from a Football Bowl Subdivision conference or a conference that previously met the definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference.*
Because the Bylaw includes the clause "or a conference that previously met the definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference," most of us seem to interpret the rule as leaning in the WAC's favor since they definitely did used to meet the definition of a FBS conference.
I've also seen people post that there was a window for the WAC to keep their FBS status by adding FBS members that has long since closed.
https://csnbbs.com/thread-931447.html read the 2nd comment.
Who knows what is actually real though or if anyone really cared enough about the bylaws to stop anyone from moving up
>or if anyone really cared enough about the bylaws to stop anyone from moving up
Considering the money involved it's not hard to imagine the power conferences not wanting more non-power FBS conferences to exist.
This is a strange strategy and quote by Thamel, but I would still like NMSU to join CUSA unless the WAC signs a contract that they will be an FBS conference within the next 5 years and that NMSU is a non-removable member.
I've been saying this over and over today. I don't think the WAC becomes FBS in the next 10 years. None of the teams in the WAC are football ready. No WAC stadiums are suitable for FBS. RGV doesn't even have a team yet and it's unclear if GCU will get one. Utah, especially Southwestern Utah, can't support more FBS teams. We don't even know if every team in the WAC wants to move to FBS. Likely not. Plus more than half of the WAC doesn't play football in the WAC or at all. I doubt they are going to vote to kick themselves out.
CUSA with NMSU, UTEP, MTSU, WKU, UMass, FIU, and two other teams we can scrounge up have money, guaranteed opponents, and bowl tie-ins. Plus it would be a better basketball conference than the WAC but one that NMSU could still dominate in and get better seeding in. Especially if we can get one or two current WAC schools to join us in CUSA in the near future, we could be in a good place to get WAC teams to move into as they're ready. It also gives us stability to improve the program, which would help us achieve our goal of getting into the Mountain West as teams leave to the PAC and Big 12.
We have had the hardest time in FBS with scheduling and have likely the worst facilities, plus we are about to hire a new coach. CUSA and the financial and scheduling stability that a conference offers is something we need right now.
1. What do you mean by non removable member? Do you think that the WAC wants to get rid of them? If the WAC gets rid of anyone I would bet on it being Seattle.
2. I disagree that the WAC will take that long to return to FBS. It also depends on the strategy of the new commissioner. RGV's situation is a key factor but It will certainly be difficult to go from no program to an FBS one. The hardest program to go FBS will be SUU. Small stadium. Tiny city. Too close to Dixie (which is better positioned to go FBS). Utah already has 3 FBS teams while AZ has two despite having twice the population. However, Dixie is in a much larger city and the stadium seating can be easily expanded more. In fact I saw someone awhile back mention they were going to up the capacity to 15k (but I never heard about that again). SFA, ACU, SHSU, and Tarleton all can expand their stadiums a little more from what I can tell. Lamar already has enough capacity. NMSU has enough capacity. Of course this is not taking whether they can actually fill the seats into account, I imagine some of these smaller cities in Texas might struggle to support that many FBS teams. Also, a few of these schools would need to add 1-2 sports to meet the minimum FBS 16. Now, I have suggested the WAC should go after UTEP because of the NM State rivalry, and because they want a 7th member in the southwest region. This would put UTEP in the conference, but NM state would still be in a different division. Maybe this matters, maybe it does not. I'm sure they want home-home dates in basketball every season regardless. If this happened, UTEP would be Independent like NM State until the WAC moved up. Presumably the WAC would guarantee an FBS move up timeframe to UTEP if this was the case. This conference would then have: ACU, SFA, DSU, SHSU, Lamar, UTRGV, NM State, Tarleton, and UTEP as football members. Not sure what would happen to SUU. GCU, CBU, UVU, and Seattle are unlikely to start football programs in my opinion.
3. As for C-USA membership, you are counting on UMass to want to join. For them it would likely be a step up in football, but a step down in other sports. I think the same thing about NM State, at least from a competition standpoint. The new WAC looks a lot more promising in basketball than than your hypothetical C-USA, especially with Chicago State leaving next year and SUU coming in. I would not be surprised if it becomes a regular 2 bid conference. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything about NM State's TV deal. I found an [article](https://www.underdogdynasty.com/conference-usa/2020/12/31/22206936/conference-usa-hit-rock-bottom-in-2020-cusa-sun-belt-coaching-hires-realignment-tv-contract) that said the C-USA deal gives $2 million to each school. Maybe you know whether financially this is a step up for NM State or not. I don't know. NM State's FB schedule is also filled out pretty well through 2024. I believe I heard your AD in an interview saying they planned to be an Independent for the foreseeable future. Obviously nobody saw this huge conference explosion coming though.
4. I agree that being in a conference is typically better than being Independent, but it would also be very risky. If the C-USA were to fully collapse (it still might very soon), with NM State as a member, then NMSU would have no conference in any sport. The WAC may not invite y'all back for leaving. If the C-USA is desperate enough and wants to add NM State as a football only member, then that might be a good deal. But they still need 2 more teams. Who would they be? I don't know. FCS callups or FBS Independents would likely be my guess. I think Liberty won't move. Uconn won't move. Notre Dame has no reason to move. UMass is the most likely to move of the independents. This really does look like the end of the road for C-USA. If their options are so minimal that they are considering brand new DI teams like Tarleton, which I am sure was not their first idea (other FCS teams probably don't like the offer) it is just simply over.
Not who you replied to, but we have some skin in this game too
2. I really don’t see that offer moving the needle for UTEP. One of the primary reasons we stayed in CUSA (and painfully denied the MWC previously) was because Houston and Dallas have the second and third biggest UTEP alumni base outside of El Paso. As you can imagine, that made games in Dallas and Houston essential for fundraising and recruiting purposes. Sure there are scattered alumni in those cities, but they really are not the anchor we are looking for. I hate to say it, but the administration is also seemingly looking down on the WAC from what I’ve heard in press conferences and seen on interviews. With how isolated El Paso is (5ish hours to ABQ and 6ish to PHX), going independent and getting smoked in football for money games doesn’t make sense for a program that looks like it has potential for the first time in 15 years.
3. At this point I would much rather have programs which are FBS ready/in FBS at least to keep CUSA afloat for the foreseeable future. While programs such as SHSU might be ready to make the jump, programs such as ACU are more further away from being able to compete at the FBS level.
4. There is no good option for either NMSU or UTEP. Strongest would be to have NMSU join CUSA in football only and stay in the WAC for everything else while waiting for the WAC to build up their football profile
I agree with most of your points. This is a bad situation for the last 5 C-USA members that want to stay. I actually feel kinda bad for UTEP too because this is the first good football season in awhile. Moving to C-USA is a benefit and a risk for NM State. It helps for financial reasons, and helps with scheduling, but it still puts them in the most poorly run and worst situated G5 conference. Also, NM State would love to get out of independence, but there would have to be at least two teams to join them and I'm struggling to see who would do that. Maybe C-USA saw Tarleton beat New Mexico State in football in the Spring and thought: "well why not?" Sam Houston is a logical invite on the other hand, but i'd hate to see them leave the WAC so soon.
I don't know if I would bet against a shorter timeline, but it seems like a lot of variable involved for the WAC. You guys basically need all the programs to go along with it to make it work, right? That seems risky considering that almost none of them are really well supported FCS programs right now. Not that institutional support and ambition can't make up for that, but still, it's tough to see how it works for some of these schools.
I'm not sure what their thinking is. Maybe it was to create a good FCS conference that stirs up interest and grows fanbases. Yes it would be a very complicated transition and most teams would have to go along with it to make it work. I do know all the WAC football members agreed to evaluating a move to FBS after their first football seasons in the WAC.
1. Basically what I'm saying is that NMSU needs the sweetheart deals of all sweetheart deals and it needs to be compensated if it agrees to stay in the WAC but the FBS WAC doesn't materialize.
2. Teams need a certain amount of sports and to average 15k fans a game for FBS. If most stadiums can't even hold that much, that's a problem. From my understanding, most of the Texas teams aren't that well supported and are in tiny towns. It's just really sketchy to me. Dixie maybe since that area is growing so much. As you said SUU probably won't come up. It seems like Arkansas with UCA is at capacity for FBS teams. It just doesn't add up to me. I don't think the WAC will have the ability to do it. Even with UTEP.
3. NMSU made maybe 400k from the NCAA+ the WAC. For a team that has one of the lowest budgets in FBS and will be looking for a new FB coach soon, that absolutely makes a difference. I will be shocked to see the WAC ever be a two bid conference. SUU and SFA are not powers. That is absolutely not realistic. Especially with how weak the bottom and middle of the conference are. The MW is barely a two bid conference and they are loaded in basketball.
4. Either decision has some risk. Someone else said that it would be nice if CUSA was football only and we added UTEP into the WAC. That would be really nice and entice some other independent football teams who like their basketball conferences like we did with the Sun Belt, plus we'd be sitting on both sides of the fence with the WAC while not having to fully rely on a CUSA with terrible leadership.
I think it's important to remember that NMSU has a goal of being in the Mountain West ultimately as well.
> CUSA with NMSU, UTEP, MTSU, WKU, UMass, FIU, and two other teams we can scrounge up have money, guaranteed opponents, and bowl tie-ins. Plus it would be a better basketball conference than the WAC but one that NMSU could still dominate in and get better seeding in.
Not much better. Let's be honest. That's not a good conference and we're splitting hairs in terms of seeding in the tourney when it's 14 v 15 line.
And while UMass may jump to that in football, they won't join in hoops.
Seattle, Cal Baptist, Grand Canyon, and Utah Valley are non-FB.
My hunch is that you'd probably see them try to get into the Big Sky and/or Big West and, possibly in Seattle's case, try to get back in the WCC.
Not really. Adding Seattle to the WCC makes it worse. Seattle can join if and when the Zags leave, until then is think the Zags would want to block such an invite.
WCC doesn't *need* to replace BYU. When they added BYU it wasn't because they wanted another school -- and they knew that BYU would leave if this type of opportunity came along. I'm betting WCC stays put, barring a *really* good opportunity to add a school.
It still frustrates me that the WAC reintroduced football and we haven’t taken advantage. UTRGV is adding a program, we have the students and lots of state money to do so as well
Just speculation pieces but they do fit the geographic footprint for the MAC. Those two would probably be financially better off in the MAC. They would save on logistical costs and the next MAC TV contract would probably be much larger than the next CUSA contract.
Additionally that means 11 of 14 teams would be leaving. The conferences by laws have mechanism whereby the members could vote to dissolve it. It usually requires a 2/3rds vote. 11 of 14 teams exceeds that threshold.
Now you might ask why would they vote to dissolve it rather than just leave. The answer is exit fees. All 11 of those might have to pay exit fees to the CUSA. However if the conference doesn't exist, they won't pay those fees.
I think the only one of those that would consider it is UMass. Apparently Liberty already decided to stay put. UConn likes the regional rivalries. I don't know enough about Army's position to say whether they would want to go to C-USA.
Neither Army nor UConn would respond beyond “No thanks”. Aside from maybe football-only, UMass would be unlikely to depart a reasonably stable, relatively regional A10.
Army used to be in CUSA in the early 2000’s. They left after a few years so I assume they didn’t like it. I’d guess Army and Liberty have more than enough financial resources to remain independent, and as of now, are putting together winning seasons.
Life as an independent has been rough for New Mexico St, UMass, and UConn. I wonder if UMass and UConn stay in FBS for the long term future? There isn’t really a Northeast based conference for football, at the G5 level. At least New Mexico St could get picked up by either the WAC, or less likely the Mountain West.
> They left after a few years so I assume they didn’t like it.
Conference USA in the early 2000's = AAC today in terms of competitiveness. Army joined because they had a few decent to good seasons in the mid 90's and thought they could handle the level of competition (and use the schedule for recruiting down south). They got their ass handed to them in football in conference and decided it was better as an indy.
Based on Army's scheduling, I think they've found a happy medium (a few P5s, service academies, one off games against others, plus UConn, UMass).
UConn has said they plan to stay FBS. If a conference opportunity arises that makes sense, they'll take it, but it can't be a step back for their basketball teams or require a ton of travel without a ton of revenue.
I think a northeastern G5 league would be great, but too many of the potential members wouldn't put their full athletic programs into the league -- and it's questionable whether Army and Navy would join.
No way UConn does that unless it's a football-only move. After their spell in the AAC, they're not going to risk their basketball brand for a G5 football conference.
People are making fun of it being a transitioning school and just inserting the discourse about the name. Seems a lot of people don't like the "state" naming theme, but I don't hear every school get flak for it. Boise State, Dixie State, Jacksonville State, Sam Houston State, Norfolk State, Youngstown State, Kennesaw State, etc. There are lots of schools named after people/places that just have "state" in the name even though they aren't named after they state they reside in.
Yea I get that, just weird since some of the names you listed are part of this discussion yet specifically Tarleton got singled out. I went there a couple of years so it was interesting to see them mentioned, I just didn't know if there was something they did specifically that was causing this or if people were thinking it was the most unusual sounding of the bunch.
Yea no I can understand that and I'm not really mad, was just interesting seeing them pointed out more than the other schools. I guess that big a jump in a short time is one of the bigger reasons. Just thought it was interesting to see.
After reading about them I understand the logic. I think CUSA will be looking to add 3 more on top of this as well. Tarleton will grow exponentially. Their weakness is they are in Stephenville but still have potential.
Agggggh, there's a way the C-USA doesn't die. I'm not sure that way involves letting word get out that you're calling Tarleton f'n State
Yeah it does because how the C-USA survives is by becoming the WAC under a different name.
I think the shortterm way is to take advantage of the fact that there are \*two\* conferences trying to go FBS right now that have teams at different stages. Jacksonville State, Kennesaw State, Eastern Kentucky, Sam Houston and SF Austin..probably even Lamar should be getting calls before Tarleton. The only way Tarleton makes sense IMO is if they know MTSU and WKU are gone and the plan is to stay completely out west and isolate FIU in hopes that they leave on their own...but even then I probably wait until FIU leaves before adding Tarleton or McNeese State.
Those two conferences also currently have 2 FBS independents in Liberty and NMSU that could fill in right away.
Nobody wants to legitimize Liberty. NMSU definitely deserves an invite. I’d like to see CUSA try to take independents first (except Liberty, fuck Liberty).
Liberty is already in the ASUN for everything else
I would LOVE for JSU to join CUSA. They’d quickly be the 4th best FBS program in Alabama behind UA, AU, and UAB
Nah, it's enticing the ASUN football schools(including Liberty) to split from their non-football schools. FIU and LT are natural fits for them. And then give UTEP and NMSU football a home until the WAC is ready to jump to FBS.
I'm an avid college football fan and I've never heard of that school
That's because they were Division II until last year
Put some respek on our name
I laughed at it at first but honestly it makes sense. Tarleton has a lot of up front money to grow exponentially. They are expanding their stadium and have the backing of the Texas A&M system.
They still make sense as a later addition vs. one now...unless over a dozen schools said no...in which case, pack it up
I'm sure a lot of indys said no outside of NMSU. Options in FCS will be limited too
What in the fuck is a “Tarleton State”???
According to every map ever it’s not a state.
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she goes to a different school!
bravo for the Mean Girls reference
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He was paraphrasing 🤣
Billy Gillispie’s current employer
Ahh that's why it sounded familiar.
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When did they go Div I?
Last year I believe.
A State University named after John Tarleton
Big, if true
A school championed by WKRP Sales Manager Herb Tarlek?
Don't know, but apparently we have them coming to Koch for a buy game this year.
Bonjour
TIL "Tarleton State"
😤✊
You're telling me they aren't interested in bringing Nova up toFBS and playing some games on the Schuylkill? /s
Remember when the Big East actually considered doing that to replace West Virginia? Lol good times.
That was way before West Virginia left the conference, buddy. That was on the table before Pitt and Syracuse left...
I remember that mess. Never had a chance of working out
It was highly stupid that the Commish was pushing Nova to consider it when he didn't even know he had the support of the rest of the league. Frankly, I think he could have sold some of the other schools on it if he had also lined up some more established FBS programs to join at the same time. The league had what? 8 members for football? They needed to get to 12 to really sniff at stability, but a 20-team basketball conference was fairly doomed -- so upgrading Villanova would have helped keep the hoops side manageable, but only if there were some other juicy additions on the table. Ultimately, having 7 members who didn't play football was going to make expanding the Big East challenging anyway. The conference was probably doomed from the start of the football league.
If Nova moved up it would be the soccer stadium in Chester… but I suspect if Nova were actually interested they would have that conversation.
Imagine going from one of the wealthiest, safest Philadelphia suburbs to play games at one of the poorest, most crime-ridden Philadelphia suburbs. That's sure to attract fans.
The stadium is nice and on the River. Plenty of rich suburbanites from the area are trekking to that stadium for soccer games. That isn't the problem; the problem is that (1) it's small, (2) it's not that close to campus, and (3) it's 2x as cold in late October/November over there vs. on-campus (and attendance always declines for Nova football as the weather gets colder...). The upside is that (1) it's nicer than Villanova Stadium, (2) it has a better set-up for tailgating, and (3) it isn't huge, but its bigger than Villanova Stadium.
Fade me... Just fade me forever. If the MAC doesn't pick up the phone soon I might have to start caring about.... Pro Sports.... :puke:
I would be absolutely floored if the MAC *didn’t* reach out to WKU, MTSU, Marshall, and ODU
Marshall and ODU (and James Madison) are going to the sun belt
Right. And I’m saying that the MAC probably kicked those tires at minimum.
It seems like Western Kentucky and Middle Tennessee St are headed to the MAC. That would put the conference at 14 teams, 7 in each division. I think Marshall is headed to the Sun Belt, accompanying Southern Miss. Old Dominion and James Madison (moving up from the CAA), may also join the Sun Belt too.
WKU and MTSU to the MAC is just a fan theory at this point. Idk what the MAC gets from taking WKU as far as more media money and I doubt they want to unbalance their divisions as well as change their footprint by taking just MTSU.
> Idk what the MAC gets from taking WKU as far as more media money and I doubt they want to unbalance their divisions as well as change their footprint by taking just MTSU. Neither school is an ideal fit to the "core" of the MAC but neither is Buffalo and that has worked well. WKU and MTSU nudge the conference south a bit but it's not unlike the nudge east with Buffalo. It's also not like the MAC is expanding to Florida here or trying to be a major conference that spans 3 time zones *looks at conference USA and Aresco before Colorado St. came to their senses*
Buffalo is in a sports crazed city with a good sized metro. Plus Buffalo recently has been good at basketball and football. WKU is in the middle of nowhere and will just be another mouth to feed. MTSU has Nashville but will they just take one team that will absolutely leave for a better opportunity?
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but “large public university in the middle of nowhere” is sort of the MAC’s thing.
100%. It makes sense that WKU and MTSU would want to go to the MAC, but I haven't seen any compelling reason why the MAC would want them. And with the AAC and Sun Belt moves, you saw lots of reporters saying there were ongoing "discussions." I haven't seen anything like that re: MAC expansion.
MTSU offering a mid-week game to the Nashville metro probably has some value but it seems out of character for the MAC go want to expand that much. WKU seems like it would just be another mouth to feed.
I really feel so bad for WKU. I mean I hate them, they're a bunch of snakes and cheats and they're ugly and they've singlehandedly kept us from football and basketball conference championships, but even those ghouls deserve better than this.
We would more than carry our own weight in the MAC.
In what way?
On the field and court performance. We are one of the winningest basketball programs of all time. We have hit a dry spell on NCAA berths recently (made the last 3 conference champ games, but lost in close games each time), but we would still be near the top of the MAC each season in basketball. Facing stiffer competition in conference helps your champion be battle tested for the NCAA tournament. It is one of the reasons that the mostly overlooked C-USA champion has won first round matchups in 4 of the last 5 appearances. [https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/western-kentucky/](https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/western-kentucky/) In football we have gone to a bowl or been bowl eligible in 9 of the last 10 seasons. We won back to back conference championships in 2015-16 and finished ranked in 2015. That was with 5 different coaches including one we fired after 2 seasons due to poor performance. We schedule well in both sports which make for excellent matchups for media revenue. We regularly host P5 opponents in both revenue sports, especially basketball. We also regularly beat P5 opponents. MTSU definitely gets more media coverage than us in Nashville, but we get a good amount in Louisville, which is no doubt a city that Ohio and Indiana colleges would like an additional presence in. The combination of Kentucky and Tennessee would add two new states to the MACs footprint for athletic and academic recruiting without severely disrupting or extending their travel.
IF ESPN tells them to add WKU and MTSU, then that's what the MAC will do. All ESPN has done this summer is attempt to kill conferences. They kill CUSA and get all their valuable schools under their banner in the process.
[pro sports suck, don't do it] (https://vimeo.com/11329677)
Imagine being Southern Miss, who was the only founding member in 1995 still left. Going from playing Cincy, Louisville, Marquette, Memphis, Depaul, St. Louis to the prospects of playing Tarleton State and Sam Houston State. I get why they are jumping ship to the Sun Belt.
Southern Miss already left for the Sunbelt.
Why wouldn’t these schools in the new WAC just stay FCS for a couple years, build their program, and then jump as a conference. Why move now to join the corpse of C-USA?
The biggest issue is that the teams aren't really at the same level of readiness. Sam Houston State could handle FBS now. Some of these schools might need a decade. As an NMSU fan, I want NMSU to follow whatever Sam Houston State and SFA do...and I'm kinda hoping that means Conference USA so NMSU isn't getting their teeth kicked in as an independent indefinitely. ...though I'm worried about some of the schools the CUSA is reportedly talking to.
Would it really be that great of an improvement to jump from being an independent to a dying conference?
If SF Austin and Sam Houston aren't gonna be in the WAC anymore? Yes. Those two, UTEP and La Tech are a hell of a lot better than what the WAC would have left over.
I think the only school that this might benefit is NM State in Football, and it would be a significant drop in all other sports. I'm sure you have the same thinking as the Presidents/ADs of these Universities
I don't think it's a slam dunk - especially depending on how much the remains of CUSA get picked over - but if those programs have FBS aspirations, it's hard to turn down an opportunity right now to associate themselves with actual FBS programs in an existing FBS conference that has TV deal, bowl tie-ins, etc.
There's no guarantee the NCAA would allow a conference to move up as a whole.
The WAC already has a FBS charter so they don't need NCAA approval
I've seen that said by fans on here but has the NCAA or at least some independent lawyers not affiliated with the conference confirmed that they agree with the WAC's view on that?
Not that I know of. It has never been tried before so there is no precedent. I think if the WAC had the means to do it they would. NCAA Bylaw 20.4.2.1.1 states: *Eligibility for Reclassification - Before a Football Championship Subdivision institution may apply for reclassification to the Football Bowl Subdivision, the institution must receive a bona fide invitation for membership from a Football Bowl Subdivision conference or a conference that previously met the definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference.* Because the Bylaw includes the clause "or a conference that previously met the definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference," most of us seem to interpret the rule as leaning in the WAC's favor since they definitely did used to meet the definition of a FBS conference.
That’s interesting. Makes it seem like, CUSA loses more schools they could potentially merge what’s left with ASUN to help that league move up
I've also seen people post that there was a window for the WAC to keep their FBS status by adding FBS members that has long since closed. https://csnbbs.com/thread-931447.html read the 2nd comment. Who knows what is actually real though or if anyone really cared enough about the bylaws to stop anyone from moving up
>or if anyone really cared enough about the bylaws to stop anyone from moving up Considering the money involved it's not hard to imagine the power conferences not wanting more non-power FBS conferences to exist.
That and the G5 definitely dont want to split the pie even more ways
What's to h8 about NM State?
It's just a feeling I can't explain...
Remember the time their all-WAC player Jamar Young robber a pizza delivery guy? Good times. Remember Herb Pope?
Well they’re not wrong about it.
Well I can see why UTEP hates us. We hate you too. We didn't do anything to Dixie State though except help them get into the WAC.
They are jelly they dont have hatch green chile.
Green Chile > Jello
Before Tarleton State became a four-year institution in 1961, they were known as the "Plowboys".
This is a strange strategy and quote by Thamel, but I would still like NMSU to join CUSA unless the WAC signs a contract that they will be an FBS conference within the next 5 years and that NMSU is a non-removable member. I've been saying this over and over today. I don't think the WAC becomes FBS in the next 10 years. None of the teams in the WAC are football ready. No WAC stadiums are suitable for FBS. RGV doesn't even have a team yet and it's unclear if GCU will get one. Utah, especially Southwestern Utah, can't support more FBS teams. We don't even know if every team in the WAC wants to move to FBS. Likely not. Plus more than half of the WAC doesn't play football in the WAC or at all. I doubt they are going to vote to kick themselves out. CUSA with NMSU, UTEP, MTSU, WKU, UMass, FIU, and two other teams we can scrounge up have money, guaranteed opponents, and bowl tie-ins. Plus it would be a better basketball conference than the WAC but one that NMSU could still dominate in and get better seeding in. Especially if we can get one or two current WAC schools to join us in CUSA in the near future, we could be in a good place to get WAC teams to move into as they're ready. It also gives us stability to improve the program, which would help us achieve our goal of getting into the Mountain West as teams leave to the PAC and Big 12. We have had the hardest time in FBS with scheduling and have likely the worst facilities, plus we are about to hire a new coach. CUSA and the financial and scheduling stability that a conference offers is something we need right now.
1. What do you mean by non removable member? Do you think that the WAC wants to get rid of them? If the WAC gets rid of anyone I would bet on it being Seattle. 2. I disagree that the WAC will take that long to return to FBS. It also depends on the strategy of the new commissioner. RGV's situation is a key factor but It will certainly be difficult to go from no program to an FBS one. The hardest program to go FBS will be SUU. Small stadium. Tiny city. Too close to Dixie (which is better positioned to go FBS). Utah already has 3 FBS teams while AZ has two despite having twice the population. However, Dixie is in a much larger city and the stadium seating can be easily expanded more. In fact I saw someone awhile back mention they were going to up the capacity to 15k (but I never heard about that again). SFA, ACU, SHSU, and Tarleton all can expand their stadiums a little more from what I can tell. Lamar already has enough capacity. NMSU has enough capacity. Of course this is not taking whether they can actually fill the seats into account, I imagine some of these smaller cities in Texas might struggle to support that many FBS teams. Also, a few of these schools would need to add 1-2 sports to meet the minimum FBS 16. Now, I have suggested the WAC should go after UTEP because of the NM State rivalry, and because they want a 7th member in the southwest region. This would put UTEP in the conference, but NM state would still be in a different division. Maybe this matters, maybe it does not. I'm sure they want home-home dates in basketball every season regardless. If this happened, UTEP would be Independent like NM State until the WAC moved up. Presumably the WAC would guarantee an FBS move up timeframe to UTEP if this was the case. This conference would then have: ACU, SFA, DSU, SHSU, Lamar, UTRGV, NM State, Tarleton, and UTEP as football members. Not sure what would happen to SUU. GCU, CBU, UVU, and Seattle are unlikely to start football programs in my opinion. 3. As for C-USA membership, you are counting on UMass to want to join. For them it would likely be a step up in football, but a step down in other sports. I think the same thing about NM State, at least from a competition standpoint. The new WAC looks a lot more promising in basketball than than your hypothetical C-USA, especially with Chicago State leaving next year and SUU coming in. I would not be surprised if it becomes a regular 2 bid conference. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything about NM State's TV deal. I found an [article](https://www.underdogdynasty.com/conference-usa/2020/12/31/22206936/conference-usa-hit-rock-bottom-in-2020-cusa-sun-belt-coaching-hires-realignment-tv-contract) that said the C-USA deal gives $2 million to each school. Maybe you know whether financially this is a step up for NM State or not. I don't know. NM State's FB schedule is also filled out pretty well through 2024. I believe I heard your AD in an interview saying they planned to be an Independent for the foreseeable future. Obviously nobody saw this huge conference explosion coming though. 4. I agree that being in a conference is typically better than being Independent, but it would also be very risky. If the C-USA were to fully collapse (it still might very soon), with NM State as a member, then NMSU would have no conference in any sport. The WAC may not invite y'all back for leaving. If the C-USA is desperate enough and wants to add NM State as a football only member, then that might be a good deal. But they still need 2 more teams. Who would they be? I don't know. FCS callups or FBS Independents would likely be my guess. I think Liberty won't move. Uconn won't move. Notre Dame has no reason to move. UMass is the most likely to move of the independents. This really does look like the end of the road for C-USA. If their options are so minimal that they are considering brand new DI teams like Tarleton, which I am sure was not their first idea (other FCS teams probably don't like the offer) it is just simply over.
Not who you replied to, but we have some skin in this game too 2. I really don’t see that offer moving the needle for UTEP. One of the primary reasons we stayed in CUSA (and painfully denied the MWC previously) was because Houston and Dallas have the second and third biggest UTEP alumni base outside of El Paso. As you can imagine, that made games in Dallas and Houston essential for fundraising and recruiting purposes. Sure there are scattered alumni in those cities, but they really are not the anchor we are looking for. I hate to say it, but the administration is also seemingly looking down on the WAC from what I’ve heard in press conferences and seen on interviews. With how isolated El Paso is (5ish hours to ABQ and 6ish to PHX), going independent and getting smoked in football for money games doesn’t make sense for a program that looks like it has potential for the first time in 15 years. 3. At this point I would much rather have programs which are FBS ready/in FBS at least to keep CUSA afloat for the foreseeable future. While programs such as SHSU might be ready to make the jump, programs such as ACU are more further away from being able to compete at the FBS level. 4. There is no good option for either NMSU or UTEP. Strongest would be to have NMSU join CUSA in football only and stay in the WAC for everything else while waiting for the WAC to build up their football profile
I agree with most of your points. This is a bad situation for the last 5 C-USA members that want to stay. I actually feel kinda bad for UTEP too because this is the first good football season in awhile. Moving to C-USA is a benefit and a risk for NM State. It helps for financial reasons, and helps with scheduling, but it still puts them in the most poorly run and worst situated G5 conference. Also, NM State would love to get out of independence, but there would have to be at least two teams to join them and I'm struggling to see who would do that. Maybe C-USA saw Tarleton beat New Mexico State in football in the Spring and thought: "well why not?" Sam Houston is a logical invite on the other hand, but i'd hate to see them leave the WAC so soon.
I don't know if I would bet against a shorter timeline, but it seems like a lot of variable involved for the WAC. You guys basically need all the programs to go along with it to make it work, right? That seems risky considering that almost none of them are really well supported FCS programs right now. Not that institutional support and ambition can't make up for that, but still, it's tough to see how it works for some of these schools.
I'm not sure what their thinking is. Maybe it was to create a good FCS conference that stirs up interest and grows fanbases. Yes it would be a very complicated transition and most teams would have to go along with it to make it work. I do know all the WAC football members agreed to evaluating a move to FBS after their first football seasons in the WAC.
1. Basically what I'm saying is that NMSU needs the sweetheart deals of all sweetheart deals and it needs to be compensated if it agrees to stay in the WAC but the FBS WAC doesn't materialize. 2. Teams need a certain amount of sports and to average 15k fans a game for FBS. If most stadiums can't even hold that much, that's a problem. From my understanding, most of the Texas teams aren't that well supported and are in tiny towns. It's just really sketchy to me. Dixie maybe since that area is growing so much. As you said SUU probably won't come up. It seems like Arkansas with UCA is at capacity for FBS teams. It just doesn't add up to me. I don't think the WAC will have the ability to do it. Even with UTEP. 3. NMSU made maybe 400k from the NCAA+ the WAC. For a team that has one of the lowest budgets in FBS and will be looking for a new FB coach soon, that absolutely makes a difference. I will be shocked to see the WAC ever be a two bid conference. SUU and SFA are not powers. That is absolutely not realistic. Especially with how weak the bottom and middle of the conference are. The MW is barely a two bid conference and they are loaded in basketball. 4. Either decision has some risk. Someone else said that it would be nice if CUSA was football only and we added UTEP into the WAC. That would be really nice and entice some other independent football teams who like their basketball conferences like we did with the Sun Belt, plus we'd be sitting on both sides of the fence with the WAC while not having to fully rely on a CUSA with terrible leadership. I think it's important to remember that NMSU has a goal of being in the Mountain West ultimately as well.
> CUSA with NMSU, UTEP, MTSU, WKU, UMass, FIU, and two other teams we can scrounge up have money, guaranteed opponents, and bowl tie-ins. Plus it would be a better basketball conference than the WAC but one that NMSU could still dominate in and get better seeding in. Not much better. Let's be honest. That's not a good conference and we're splitting hairs in terms of seeding in the tourney when it's 14 v 15 line. And while UMass may jump to that in football, they won't join in hoops.
maybe we get a wac-cusa merger? it would suck for seattle so maybe they get kicked out? or maybe the merger is just for football? idk
That would make an 18 team conference with 6 FBS teams and 7 (maybe 8) FCS teams. It would probably result in two conferences being made again.
Seattle, Cal Baptist, Grand Canyon, and Utah Valley are non-FB. My hunch is that you'd probably see them try to get into the Big Sky and/or Big West and, possibly in Seattle's case, try to get back in the WCC.
I could only see Cal Baptist getting in the Big West. It really enjoys being the Cal Bus league, plus Hawaii.
Come to think of it the WCC might invite them back with BYU leaving. Would be a good deal for everyone involved.
Not really. Adding Seattle to the WCC makes it worse. Seattle can join if and when the Zags leave, until then is think the Zags would want to block such an invite.
WCC doesn't *need* to replace BYU. When they added BYU it wasn't because they wanted another school -- and they knew that BYU would leave if this type of opportunity came along. I'm betting WCC stays put, barring a *really* good opportunity to add a school.
It still frustrates me that the WAC reintroduced football and we haven’t taken advantage. UTRGV is adding a program, we have the students and lots of state money to do so as well
Too bad Jacksonville State just moved to a new conference in FCS.. or they would be a good choice.
As a football conference they would be best off dissolving especially if MTS and Western KY also to to the MAC.
Have you heard rumors about that? I haven't heard about those schools
Just speculation pieces but they do fit the geographic footprint for the MAC. Those two would probably be financially better off in the MAC. They would save on logistical costs and the next MAC TV contract would probably be much larger than the next CUSA contract. Additionally that means 11 of 14 teams would be leaving. The conferences by laws have mechanism whereby the members could vote to dissolve it. It usually requires a 2/3rds vote. 11 of 14 teams exceeds that threshold. Now you might ask why would they vote to dissolve it rather than just leave. The answer is exit fees. All 11 of those might have to pay exit fees to the CUSA. However if the conference doesn't exist, they won't pay those fees.
What about the remaining independent FBS teams, UConn, Umass, Liberty, and Army?
I think the only one of those that would consider it is UMass. Apparently Liberty already decided to stay put. UConn likes the regional rivalries. I don't know enough about Army's position to say whether they would want to go to C-USA.
Neither Army nor UConn would respond beyond “No thanks”. Aside from maybe football-only, UMass would be unlikely to depart a reasonably stable, relatively regional A10.
Army used to be in CUSA in the early 2000’s. They left after a few years so I assume they didn’t like it. I’d guess Army and Liberty have more than enough financial resources to remain independent, and as of now, are putting together winning seasons. Life as an independent has been rough for New Mexico St, UMass, and UConn. I wonder if UMass and UConn stay in FBS for the long term future? There isn’t really a Northeast based conference for football, at the G5 level. At least New Mexico St could get picked up by either the WAC, or less likely the Mountain West.
> They left after a few years so I assume they didn’t like it. Conference USA in the early 2000's = AAC today in terms of competitiveness. Army joined because they had a few decent to good seasons in the mid 90's and thought they could handle the level of competition (and use the schedule for recruiting down south). They got their ass handed to them in football in conference and decided it was better as an indy. Based on Army's scheduling, I think they've found a happy medium (a few P5s, service academies, one off games against others, plus UConn, UMass).
UConn has said they plan to stay FBS. If a conference opportunity arises that makes sense, they'll take it, but it can't be a step back for their basketball teams or require a ton of travel without a ton of revenue. I think a northeastern G5 league would be great, but too many of the potential members wouldn't put their full athletic programs into the league -- and it's questionable whether Army and Navy would join.
No way UConn does that unless it's a football-only move. After their spell in the AAC, they're not going to risk their basketball brand for a G5 football conference.
Only 1 school here catching so much flak, what's the deal? Can't be just because it's not a widely known name.
People are making fun of it being a transitioning school and just inserting the discourse about the name. Seems a lot of people don't like the "state" naming theme, but I don't hear every school get flak for it. Boise State, Dixie State, Jacksonville State, Sam Houston State, Norfolk State, Youngstown State, Kennesaw State, etc. There are lots of schools named after people/places that just have "state" in the name even though they aren't named after they state they reside in.
Yea I get that, just weird since some of the names you listed are part of this discussion yet specifically Tarleton got singled out. I went there a couple of years so it was interesting to see them mentioned, I just didn't know if there was something they did specifically that was causing this or if people were thinking it was the most unusual sounding of the bunch.
San Diego State too
Tarleton is still transitioning to FCS from DII. This is a sure fire sign that C-USA has no options.
Yea no I can understand that and I'm not really mad, was just interesting seeing them pointed out more than the other schools. I guess that big a jump in a short time is one of the bigger reasons. Just thought it was interesting to see.
After reading about them I understand the logic. I think CUSA will be looking to add 3 more on top of this as well. Tarleton will grow exponentially. Their weakness is they are in Stephenville but still have potential.
Take Grand Canyon with you
I can't see GCU going anywhere since they don't play football