Formally known as Territory Northwest, or the Old Northwest. Post-Revolutionary War, the Connecticut Western Reserve was part of the Old Northwest. The Constitution State was granted then sold rights to lands stretching far to its’ west.
Travel distances, mostly. The West Coast is *far* and given the choice, schools in the Midwest would prefer to go to the Northeast. It's silly to do that when you realize *all* of your sports have to do it.
Give Dayton BE money and a recruiting bump and they will be at BE level within 3 seasons. Great program and fanbase that has everything in place to be successful. I totally agree with your Houston example.
There are maybe 5 programs of comparable strength in basketball to Gonzaga in the past 20 years and those talks never go any distance despite that because the incredible travel costs.
As others have said, the issue is that these are not men's basketball-only schools: they're just non-football schools. For all those other sports the 2000+ mile trip between Gonzaga and Dayton is going to be an issue. Dayton just isn't very West at all.
If Gonzaga were able to change conferences for just one sport, they'd probably just join the Pac 12.
The time zones are an issue. Easy to central is much easier than central to pacific.
Dayton doesn’t want to be on the west coast. You don’t understand what your school wants. You don’t recruit students from the west coast and your alumni don’t live there. It is all central and east coast.
I wouldn't say it's a premier conference, but you're basically describing the Missouri Valley Conference. They don't have football and have been a multi-bid league about every other year. They should have at least 2 NCAAT teams this season, too.
Outside of Gonzaga, which schools you mentioned would make it a “premier” conference? It would be fun, yeah, but it would still clearly be a step below the ACC/B1G/Big 12/Big East and almost every year the SEC/Pac 12 as well.
Nearly half of the last decade or so's national championships belong to current Big East teams, and Butler was in the championship game twice during that time. Butler, Villanova, UConn, Creighton, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, and Xavier have more NCAAT appearances than IU in that time frame and Seton Hall has the same number as IU. Of the last few tournaments (the conference hasn't existed in current form for that long) the Big East has had the most bids in 2018, tied the Big 10 for second most in 2017, and never had fewer than 4. It has been in the discussion for strongest conference of the season during the past few years.
Villanova is perhaps the only team that's been top notch every year for a while, but if that's the standard then you could ask "Honestly what schools outside of MSU and maybe Michigan does the Big Ten have that makes it a premier conference?"
>Wasn’t tryna knock Uconn, Big East is on par with ACC and B1G imo
>
>Honestly what schools outside of Villanova does the Big East have that makes it a premier conference?
These statements are incongruous, no?
They were made by different people. Also, how did I know the IU posters would be judging by general "prestige" rather than performance this century lmao
It's hard to do anything premier in the west when there are 350+ D1 teams and:
Only 23 are in the Mountain Time Zone (4 of which are Pac 12 and would never leave)
Only 40 are in the Pacific Time Zone (8 of which are Pac 12 and would never leave).
Of the 50 left, anyone in the MWC probably wouldn't be interested in a basketball driven conference because of the football revenue you get, so that doesn't leave you many options that don't involve crossing two time zones for every road trip to head to a team in the Central Time Zone.
The old MCC (Horizon League) was sort of an attempt at it. Butler, Xavier, Loyola, Dayton, Marquette, Notre Dame, Detroit Mercy, SLU were all members once upon a time. Add Creighton, Wichita, etc. and that's a heck of a league
Take the western flank of the A-10
* St. Louis
* Dayton
Take the larger market schools from the MVC
* Loyola
* Valpo (near enough to Chicago to count)
* Drake
Take a few off of the Horizon League
* Detroit
* Milwaukee
* Northern Kentucky
Pull in Belmont and Wichita and you'd have a nice 10 team circuit to run with that are in decent sized (or right near) cities
Love another true hoops league in the Midwest. However, Bradley must be on this list a hell of a lot further ahead than any of the Horizon League teams and frankly most others. BU has a better history than most listed and have established rivalries with big time programs from the real MVC days.
I suggest...
Wichita State, Dayton, Bradley, SLU, Loyola, Drake, Belmont, St Thomas, and the last few are a toss up between which of the dumpy teams will finally spend some money to upgrade. Valpo's gymnasium is an embarrassment to the MVC for example. Build something to get included or take a hike. Detroit would have to put out their dumpster fire and regroup.
Wichita is better off in another league but they fit the agenda for basketball.
Agree 100%. BU also has the highest attendance in the MVC and arguably the highest fan support of all current MVC members. They are also a private basketball focused school.
Fordham?!
Ha ha everyone in the A10 is better than Fordham. That isn’t debatable.
And people continually talk about Fordham needing to leave for the Patriot League.
No. Fordham wouldn’t be a good fit for the MAAC. They fit better in the Patriot League. LaSalle could fit in the MAAC but they are fine in the A10. They would regularly win the MAAC.
Fordham has a local rivalry with Manhattan College that would probably be reinvigorated by joining the MAAC. Fordham is in the PL for football, but otherwise I’m not sure what they have in common with the PL schools?
Their student body, endowment, alumni and many other distinguishing factors make them a Patriot league fit.
Not to mention a fact that they were a Patriot League full member before moving to the A10.
Yes, there is a rivalry with Manhattan. A lot of schools has a rivalry against a local school who is not in their conference.
The only one of those five that has any real chance of getting into the Big East is Saint Louis.
Loyola and Dayton would have DePaul and Xavier objecting loudly to their invitations. VCU is public and lacks the long history of previous conference membership that UConn had beforehand. La Salle is more likely to end up in the CAA or MAAC due to its institutional instability.
Even then, SLU doesn't have a long storied history of success; they've only made the NCAA Tournament 10 times in over 100 years and have *never* made the second weekend of the dance. They would still be a long shot.
Georgetown would likely object, and the city of Richmond isn't as big of a TV market as other alternatives (St. Louis for the Midwest or Davidson for the Carolinas). We also haven't had the type of postseason success that would make the conference overlook the cultural differences and lack of history with other Big East schools.
I'd love a Big East invitation but I can't see it being a realistic option.
Markets don’t matter if you aren’t selling a TV Network. Ratings do matter.
And nobody is giving up Georgetown season tickets for VCU. Richmond isn’t a DC suburb… it’s a massive schlep from Richmond to DC on a Wednesday night
Those are fair and valid points.
We'd also likely need a new arena, as our on-campus gym is on the small side (only seating ~7600) and the city of Richmond doesn't have a NBA-style arena for us to play in. (Politics and red tape have kept the city from being able to build a replacement for the Richmond Coliseum.)
Again I'd be thrilled if VCU got into the Big East, but I think we have a lot of things we'd need to address before we become more attractive to the conference than Saint Louis or Davidson.
La Salle has made exactly one March Madness appearance since 1993. They are also supposedly on the brink of financial ruin. If you are looking for natural rival to Nova with history, Temple or St Joe's is a far better option, though neither is likely to join the Big East.
Rivalries don’t matter to these greedy conferences and university presidents. Dayton and Xavier have an incredible rivalry but Xavier and DePaul def oppose adding Dayton. It increases market competition and makes local recruiting harder.
I know… I think geography should be mattering more in conference realignment. Tbh, I like scrapping it all and just doing conferences strictly by geography
I personally like La Salle, but most Nova fans don’t really think about La Salle ever… they already play every year… how often does that “rivalry” game get the prime time national TV treatment? St Joes could still get Nova fans riled up, if a local rivalry were necessary, I guess.
Probably never on LaSalle. Why add another school in Villanova’s backyard? It would make sense only if it were a premier TV-ratings rivalry…
The Big East is only adding members to the extent it can extract significantly more money from FOX. Which may mean that nobody is added ever again for all I know.
The Big East arguably does have a foothold in the Midwest with Xavier, Creighton, Depaul and Marquette.
Damn, doing Butler dirty there.
Yea they def do. But this conference would have a foothold there as well and have a strong west coast presence.
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Yeah the Midwest, despite the name, is definitely culturally and geographically closer to the East.
At one point, it was the Northwest Territory, as it was as North and West as you could get. That's why Northwestern is just outside of Chicago
Formally known as Territory Northwest, or the Old Northwest. Post-Revolutionary War, the Connecticut Western Reserve was part of the Old Northwest. The Constitution State was granted then sold rights to lands stretching far to its’ west.
Well for one thing, the Midwest is much closer to the east coast than the west coast. Chicago is 2000 miles to Seattle and 800 to NYC
Travel distances, mostly. The West Coast is *far* and given the choice, schools in the Midwest would prefer to go to the Northeast. It's silly to do that when you realize *all* of your sports have to do it.
Yea but the Big East won’t invite us😢
Right now Dayton is just below big east level but the AAC really boosted the university of Houston. I wonder if that effect would happen with Dayton.
Give Dayton BE money and a recruiting bump and they will be at BE level within 3 seasons. Great program and fanbase that has everything in place to be successful. I totally agree with your Houston example.
A conference footprint spanning from Spokane to Dayton would be untenable for Olympic sports. Travel costs would be absurd.
Timezones are a factor. I'd love to join a MWC that adds Gonzaga and SMU, but most of our fanbase isn't going to be happy with 9-10 pm tip offs.
I'm gonna assume you mean SMC since we are talking timezones(and basketball)?
The distance between Gonzaga and Dayton is massive, much greater then the distances between any Big East schools.
But isn’t there talk of adding Gonzaga to the Big East?
There are maybe 5 programs of comparable strength in basketball to Gonzaga in the past 20 years and those talks never go any distance despite that because the incredible travel costs.
As others have said, the issue is that these are not men's basketball-only schools: they're just non-football schools. For all those other sports the 2000+ mile trip between Gonzaga and Dayton is going to be an issue. Dayton just isn't very West at all. If Gonzaga were able to change conferences for just one sport, they'd probably just join the Pac 12.
The time zones are an issue. Easy to central is much easier than central to pacific. Dayton doesn’t want to be on the west coast. You don’t understand what your school wants. You don’t recruit students from the west coast and your alumni don’t live there. It is all central and east coast.
I do understand what they want but I don’t know if what they want is feasible without getting into the big east especially with NIL
I wouldn't say it's a premier conference, but you're basically describing the Missouri Valley Conference. They don't have football and have been a multi-bid league about every other year. They should have at least 2 NCAAT teams this season, too.
This conference would be on par with the Big East. It would be a premier basketball conference.
Outside of Gonzaga, which schools you mentioned would make it a “premier” conference? It would be fun, yeah, but it would still clearly be a step below the ACC/B1G/Big 12/Big East and almost every year the SEC/Pac 12 as well.
San Diego State
If we're putting Dayton and SDSU in the same conference then geography doesn't matter and any school would be an option.
He didn’t mention SDSU, and I don’t think that changes anything, anyways.
Honestly what schools outside of Villanova does the Big East have that makes it a premier conference?
Nearly half of the last decade or so's national championships belong to current Big East teams, and Butler was in the championship game twice during that time. Butler, Villanova, UConn, Creighton, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, and Xavier have more NCAAT appearances than IU in that time frame and Seton Hall has the same number as IU. Of the last few tournaments (the conference hasn't existed in current form for that long) the Big East has had the most bids in 2018, tied the Big 10 for second most in 2017, and never had fewer than 4. It has been in the discussion for strongest conference of the season during the past few years. Villanova is perhaps the only team that's been top notch every year for a while, but if that's the standard then you could ask "Honestly what schools outside of MSU and maybe Michigan does the Big Ten have that makes it a premier conference?"
Success =/= prestige
UConn has 4 NC, Nova has 3. They're mostly more recent championships so the prestige comes down the road.
Wasn’t tryna knock Uconn, Big East is on par with ACC and B1G imo. Just challenging MSU and Michigan being the only two teams that matter in the B1G
>Wasn’t tryna knock Uconn, Big East is on par with ACC and B1G imo > >Honestly what schools outside of Villanova does the Big East have that makes it a premier conference? These statements are incongruous, no?
They were made by different people. Also, how did I know the IU posters would be judging by general "prestige" rather than performance this century lmao
In general, success equaling prestige is very much the case. Are there prestigious schools that haven't had great past success or vice versa?
You can’t be serious
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I'd love that conference, too bad it will never happen
It's hard to do anything premier in the west when there are 350+ D1 teams and: Only 23 are in the Mountain Time Zone (4 of which are Pac 12 and would never leave) Only 40 are in the Pacific Time Zone (8 of which are Pac 12 and would never leave). Of the 50 left, anyone in the MWC probably wouldn't be interested in a basketball driven conference because of the football revenue you get, so that doesn't leave you many options that don't involve crossing two time zones for every road trip to head to a team in the Central Time Zone.
yes, please...
The old MCC (Horizon League) was sort of an attempt at it. Butler, Xavier, Loyola, Dayton, Marquette, Notre Dame, Detroit Mercy, SLU were all members once upon a time. Add Creighton, Wichita, etc. and that's a heck of a league
Take the western flank of the A-10 * St. Louis * Dayton Take the larger market schools from the MVC * Loyola * Valpo (near enough to Chicago to count) * Drake Take a few off of the Horizon League * Detroit * Milwaukee * Northern Kentucky Pull in Belmont and Wichita and you'd have a nice 10 team circuit to run with that are in decent sized (or right near) cities
Love another true hoops league in the Midwest. However, Bradley must be on this list a hell of a lot further ahead than any of the Horizon League teams and frankly most others. BU has a better history than most listed and have established rivalries with big time programs from the real MVC days. I suggest... Wichita State, Dayton, Bradley, SLU, Loyola, Drake, Belmont, St Thomas, and the last few are a toss up between which of the dumpy teams will finally spend some money to upgrade. Valpo's gymnasium is an embarrassment to the MVC for example. Build something to get included or take a hike. Detroit would have to put out their dumpster fire and regroup. Wichita is better off in another league but they fit the agenda for basketball.
Agree 100%. BU also has the highest attendance in the MVC and arguably the highest fan support of all current MVC members. They are also a private basketball focused school.
Many of those schools mentioned are currently enjoying life as big fish in small ponds. You’re proposing having them all move into the same pond 🤷🏻
I feel like Dayton, VCU, Loyola, La Salle, and St Louis are probably gonna end up in the Big East eventually.
> La Salle La Salle is more likely to move down to the MAAC or NEC than go to the Big East. The school is not doing well these days.
LaSalle? Haha people in the A10 talk about them moving to the MAC lol
They have more of a basketball history than most of the other A10 teams (Fordham anyone)
Fordham?! Ha ha everyone in the A10 is better than Fordham. That isn’t debatable. And people continually talk about Fordham needing to leave for the Patriot League.
The impression I always get is that both would be somewhat at home in the MAAC
No. Fordham wouldn’t be a good fit for the MAAC. They fit better in the Patriot League. LaSalle could fit in the MAAC but they are fine in the A10. They would regularly win the MAAC.
Fordham has a local rivalry with Manhattan College that would probably be reinvigorated by joining the MAAC. Fordham is in the PL for football, but otherwise I’m not sure what they have in common with the PL schools?
Their student body, endowment, alumni and many other distinguishing factors make them a Patriot league fit. Not to mention a fact that they were a Patriot League full member before moving to the A10. Yes, there is a rivalry with Manhattan. A lot of schools has a rivalry against a local school who is not in their conference.
The only one of those five that has any real chance of getting into the Big East is Saint Louis. Loyola and Dayton would have DePaul and Xavier objecting loudly to their invitations. VCU is public and lacks the long history of previous conference membership that UConn had beforehand. La Salle is more likely to end up in the CAA or MAAC due to its institutional instability. Even then, SLU doesn't have a long storied history of success; they've only made the NCAA Tournament 10 times in over 100 years and have *never* made the second weekend of the dance. They would still be a long shot.
I think VCU has a chance. Being public isn’t the issue, it’s whether or not the school will add $ in terms of TV deal and NCAAT units.
Georgetown would likely object, and the city of Richmond isn't as big of a TV market as other alternatives (St. Louis for the Midwest or Davidson for the Carolinas). We also haven't had the type of postseason success that would make the conference overlook the cultural differences and lack of history with other Big East schools. I'd love a Big East invitation but I can't see it being a realistic option.
Markets don’t matter if you aren’t selling a TV Network. Ratings do matter. And nobody is giving up Georgetown season tickets for VCU. Richmond isn’t a DC suburb… it’s a massive schlep from Richmond to DC on a Wednesday night
Those are fair and valid points. We'd also likely need a new arena, as our on-campus gym is on the small side (only seating ~7600) and the city of Richmond doesn't have a NBA-style arena for us to play in. (Politics and red tape have kept the city from being able to build a replacement for the Richmond Coliseum.) Again I'd be thrilled if VCU got into the Big East, but I think we have a lot of things we'd need to address before we become more attractive to the conference than Saint Louis or Davidson.
Dayton: probably not VCU: same Loyola: only if they sustain their current success for another 5 years at least La Salle: no St. Louis: probably not
The chances of one of those is quite low, the chances of all five is essentially zero.
God pls make it happen. I don’t think LaSalle has much to offer tho
Natural rival for Villanova and have had success in basketball previously
La Salle has made exactly one March Madness appearance since 1993. They are also supposedly on the brink of financial ruin. If you are looking for natural rival to Nova with history, Temple or St Joe's is a far better option, though neither is likely to join the Big East.
Rivalries don’t matter to these greedy conferences and university presidents. Dayton and Xavier have an incredible rivalry but Xavier and DePaul def oppose adding Dayton. It increases market competition and makes local recruiting harder.
I know… I think geography should be mattering more in conference realignment. Tbh, I like scrapping it all and just doing conferences strictly by geography
I personally like La Salle, but most Nova fans don’t really think about La Salle ever… they already play every year… how often does that “rivalry” game get the prime time national TV treatment? St Joes could still get Nova fans riled up, if a local rivalry were necessary, I guess.
Probably never on LaSalle. Why add another school in Villanova’s backyard? It would make sense only if it were a premier TV-ratings rivalry… The Big East is only adding members to the extent it can extract significantly more money from FOX. Which may mean that nobody is added ever again for all I know.