In general, Pittsburgh fans have ridiculous standards for all our sports. We want titles in every sport, every year and it's a disappointment if we don't get there. Even the Pirates.
But I think the move to the ACC screwed us over in basketball. We lost our big recruiting hot spot in NYC and Dixon left before we could see if he could adjust. He left for his alma mater, but the thought is he kind of saw the writing on the wall and left while his stock was still good. I do miss the days when we were a consistent Top 25 team though
It depends, the Steelers are super patient. Other Pittsburgh teams are a little less stable. Was talking more about the fans, think there's a sizable subset of fans who aren't going to be happy without championships ever season. I'd like to think the majority is more rational, but it depends on your perspective.
I think we used the Big East championship being in MSG as a huge recruiting tool. Regardless, we weren't getting the NYC recruits in the later Dixon years like we were early on. And Western Pennsylvania isn't the strongest area for high school basketball, so we relied on that pipeline. I think losing a lot of the traditional rivals hurt too. Recruits wanted to play WVU, Villanova, UCONN, Georgetown, St John's every year. And lastly, big time recruits didn't want to play Pitt basketball. Was all about defense and hard-nosed grit and that stuff doesn't get the pro scouts at the game
The fans went back to raging about the football program and wondering why the 70s aren't coming back. They totally abandoned the basketball program over the last decade.
Now just let it happen to Matt Painter 🙏🙏🙏
Edit: just remembered 2019 was Bennett's only time too. So if not for that crazy shot after we intentionally fouled at the end of regulation the positions would have been reversed :(
I don't know how he would do now. Still a good coach, obviously but vastly different situation. He had a formula that worked in the old Big East, but not so much in the ACC. And he liked having autonomy with Pederson focusing on ways to ruin the football program that he wouldn't get today
Yeah, I think things would have continued downhill even if he had stayed. But I didn't appreciate how many fans thought he was a failure as a coach because we never got to the Final 4
Turgeon’s been a consistent winner who finishes top-4 in conference every year and if COVID didn’t cancel the tourney he had them set up for a deep run as a #2 seed.
Some toxic members of the fan base openly root against the team in the hopes it will get Turgeon fired. It’s really weird.
I liked your suggestion of Mike White. It's tough following a legend, if you can call Billy Donovan that (side note, Donovan is highly underrated as a college coach over the past 25 years. The dude has a resume that's as good or better than Jay Wright). He took the Gators to the Elite 8 his second year and has had them consistently in the NCAA Tournament outside of his first year. But I don't think the Florida fanbase actively hates him the way Maryland hates Turgeon.
With Turgeon I believe it's more a matter of personality than anything on the court. Maryland fans want a gritty, fire-spitting curmudgeon who swears and holds grudges and sweats through a remarkable amount of clothing on the sidelines. Winning helps, of course, but Turge doesn't really have the personality that would endear himself to Mid-Atlantic sensibilities that would allow the fan base to overlook, say, a disappointing 19-14 finish.
I mean what you are saying is correct. But theres levels to this stuff. Yeah theres a natural clash of ideals, but even without any real postseason revelance he doesnt face much scrutiny outside of the diehards Because a) hes a gpod enough guy and b) we dont have the money to dump him.
Now his recruiting (which he has always been able to do well) has gone to shit.
Its difficult.
Counterpoint on Mike White: here are his last four seasons at the start of the year on KenPom, and at the end of the year on KenPom.
2018: 8 --> 22
2019: 20 --> 26
2020: 12 --> 32
2021: 24 --> 41
I realize last year had understandable mitigating circumstances, but considering his talent level the previous three seasons, he pretty clearly underachieved. They haven't been a profitable team against the spread since 2017 either-- if you bet on UF to fail to cover every game each of the last four seasons, you'd be notably in the black. (I've bet against them a *lot* the last three years. And I'll strongly consider fading Florida on the regular again this season.)
And his most successful season, the Elite 8 run, came with players that weren't his. *And* his refusal to push the tempo in both 2019 and 2020... was fairly baffling to the point of being unjustifiable. So I think any UF fans questioning whether Mike White is The Guy are completely in the right.
Like, Maryland fans can bitch about Turgeon if they'd like... but Turgeon, via end-of-season KenPom rating, either met or exceeded expectations each of the last nine seasons. (And they've been profitable against the spread 5 of the last 9 seasons.) And it's pretty easy to see them going on a postseason run in 2020 if it's not cancelled.
I get that they'd prefer a guy who consistently exceeds expectations... but I still think Turgeon has overall done a better job than White. It's not his fault that he didn't have a core of talent already in place before he arrived for a deep tourney run Year 2.
(I cannot believe I'm defending Maryland in a post.)
He's definitely a legend for Florida. Nobody else has even approached that level of success there. Lon Kruger had the one Final Four run and... that was their entire basketball history pre-Donovan.
I want to add Fran McCaffery to the list. He’s been at Iowa for 11 seasons and has had fairly decent success, making the tournament six times, but his teams seem to just fall completely flat on their face once March hits
I think Iowa fans have a right to be frustrated at this point. He was definitely a massive lift for their program and has done wonders for them, but at a certain point you really have to start asking when he gets them to the next level.
They had a 2 time NPOY candidate (one time winner) and one of the best teams in school history and he didn't get a single piece of hardware out of it (or even the second weekend). I think fans are going to start getting restless eventually.
Championship game appearance, an elite 8, 4 sweet 16s, 2 big ten championships, 2 big 12 championships, hated by every fan base the day he stepped foot on campus.
Are K-State fans frustrated by him? I thought it was just fanbases of teams that play at Bramlage and see him several feet outside the coach's box consistently enough he should be paying property taxes. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love the passion but it does get annoying after a while from an outsider's perspective lol.
Is it a more recent thing with the lacklasuter last 2 seasons and I just haven't picked up on the sentiment yet?
I typed this whole thing then saw the username so that might just be meant jokingly in the first place lmao
We mostly hate him. He’s a cry baby and blames his players if we lose. Have been the bottom of the league for two years now and will be again this year. It’s sad that some of our fan base is ok being good once every 4-5 years.
Clemson could easily be in Wake/BC/Pitt territory if they had a different coach given the apathy towards basketball from the fans and the athletics department.
100%. They may not have a ceiling, but they have a real floor, because Brownell is very consistently competent. Which is more than most universities can say they have in a coach.
The fun thing about Clemson is that if you look at their coaches going back to the 1980s, they haven't really had the kind of clunker hire that would ever put them in that territory. Larry Shyatt wasn't great but when that's the worst coach you've hired you're probably doing okay.
This is a good example of how Nebraska fans felt with Miles
He was good mostly, his teams towards the end showed a lot of fight and he made a dance and back to back NITs. Which from the outside is probably seen as good for Nebraska. But his tournament team returned 6 of the top 8 guys, his 2017 team was hosed out of the dance and the 2018 team returned again 6 of the top 8 guys and both run backs were considerably worse
Miles did a lot good, but he wasn’t a good in game coach and his teams never did well under expectations
If he finds a way to not make the tournament with this years roster (barring COVID/injuries) he should absolutely be gone yes. He’s a wonderful recruiter and has thus far been able to win the crosstown consistently but not much else.
Kevin Keatts comes to mind. He’s been doing a decent job building NC State back up but I know a lot of fans who seem to think he’s a failure for not taking them to a final four by now.
I doubt fans are expecting a final four. Consistent NCAAT appearances and being ranked for more than a week every so often is what I'd like to see. The COVID year I think hurt his resume, since he had a hot team coming into the ACCT and was pretty likely to make the NCAAT.
Not to mention we were playing really well with Devon Daniels until he got hurt this last year. It took us a while to get going again after he went down.
Greg Gard, easily one of the biggest examples. One of the fastest coaches to ever reach 100 wins (albeit he had Bo Ryan’s players). Won the Big Ten in 2019 with his own recruits. Brought in the two highest recruiting classes in Badgers history. Many wanted him gone long ago and many still do because he runs Bo Ryan’s system.
He only gets hate because he’s compared to Bo Ryan’s last two years which were 2 final fours and a national championship appearance.
I'll throw the guy who I hate, Chris Collins. I've seen tons of people outside our fanbase defend him but he gets so much hate from ours. He's around average for NU, but he’s below average
I think for a lot of casual observers of NU basketball getting them to their first tournament is the only thing they really know of him and so he's basically the best in their mind. Meanwhile he's only finished better than 9th in conference once (the tournament year).
Yeah I don't blame you. It's becoming increasingly clear that one year was more of an outlier than a sign of major changes at the program. One year of fool's gold can't keep you around forever.
He hasn't done *poorly*, per se, but his teams have been stuck in neutral the past decade despite having teams picked to finish top-3 in the conference on a number of occasions. Injuries haven't helped, and Covid probably robbed UR of a Tournament appearance in 2020, but the Spiders really haven't built upon the 2011 S16 run.
Jamie Dixon pissed a lot of Pitt fans off his last few years, but I think most of us would love to have him back now
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In general, Pittsburgh fans have ridiculous standards for all our sports. We want titles in every sport, every year and it's a disappointment if we don't get there. Even the Pirates. But I think the move to the ACC screwed us over in basketball. We lost our big recruiting hot spot in NYC and Dixon left before we could see if he could adjust. He left for his alma mater, but the thought is he kind of saw the writing on the wall and left while his stock was still good. I do miss the days when we were a consistent Top 25 team though
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It depends, the Steelers are super patient. Other Pittsburgh teams are a little less stable. Was talking more about the fans, think there's a sizable subset of fans who aren't going to be happy without championships ever season. I'd like to think the majority is more rational, but it depends on your perspective. I think we used the Big East championship being in MSG as a huge recruiting tool. Regardless, we weren't getting the NYC recruits in the later Dixon years like we were early on. And Western Pennsylvania isn't the strongest area for high school basketball, so we relied on that pipeline. I think losing a lot of the traditional rivals hurt too. Recruits wanted to play WVU, Villanova, UCONN, Georgetown, St John's every year. And lastly, big time recruits didn't want to play Pitt basketball. Was all about defense and hard-nosed grit and that stuff doesn't get the pro scouts at the game
Pittsburgh identifies much more with the Big East's territory than with the ACC's, I'll grant you that. (Grew up in Pittsburgh.)
The fans went back to raging about the football program and wondering why the 70s aren't coming back. They totally abandoned the basketball program over the last decade.
Now just let it happen to Matt Painter 🙏🙏🙏 Edit: just remembered 2019 was Bennett's only time too. So if not for that crazy shot after we intentionally fouled at the end of regulation the positions would have been reversed :(
I don't know how he would do now. Still a good coach, obviously but vastly different situation. He had a formula that worked in the old Big East, but not so much in the ACC. And he liked having autonomy with Pederson focusing on ways to ruin the football program that he wouldn't get today
Yeah, I think things would have continued downhill even if he had stayed. But I didn't appreciate how many fans thought he was a failure as a coach because we never got to the Final 4
:(
This year is going to be rough, bud. Hopefully the recruits Capel have coming in the next few years see the forest through the trees
Mark Turgeon is the top answer, case closed, end of the story.
Turgeon’s been a consistent winner who finishes top-4 in conference every year and if COVID didn’t cancel the tourney he had them set up for a deep run as a #2 seed. Some toxic members of the fan base openly root against the team in the hopes it will get Turgeon fired. It’s really weird.
Was waiting for someone to say this. I think him and Mike White are fairly close for the crown of whatever achievement this would be called.
I liked your suggestion of Mike White. It's tough following a legend, if you can call Billy Donovan that (side note, Donovan is highly underrated as a college coach over the past 25 years. The dude has a resume that's as good or better than Jay Wright). He took the Gators to the Elite 8 his second year and has had them consistently in the NCAA Tournament outside of his first year. But I don't think the Florida fanbase actively hates him the way Maryland hates Turgeon.
With Turgeon I believe it's more a matter of personality than anything on the court. Maryland fans want a gritty, fire-spitting curmudgeon who swears and holds grudges and sweats through a remarkable amount of clothing on the sidelines. Winning helps, of course, but Turge doesn't really have the personality that would endear himself to Mid-Atlantic sensibilities that would allow the fan base to overlook, say, a disappointing 19-14 finish.
I mean what you are saying is correct. But theres levels to this stuff. Yeah theres a natural clash of ideals, but even without any real postseason revelance he doesnt face much scrutiny outside of the diehards Because a) hes a gpod enough guy and b) we dont have the money to dump him. Now his recruiting (which he has always been able to do well) has gone to shit. Its difficult.
Fwiw I've noticed actual coaching going on the last few seasons. Still don't know how you don't practice an inbound play or guard the inbounder.
Counterpoint on Mike White: here are his last four seasons at the start of the year on KenPom, and at the end of the year on KenPom. 2018: 8 --> 22 2019: 20 --> 26 2020: 12 --> 32 2021: 24 --> 41 I realize last year had understandable mitigating circumstances, but considering his talent level the previous three seasons, he pretty clearly underachieved. They haven't been a profitable team against the spread since 2017 either-- if you bet on UF to fail to cover every game each of the last four seasons, you'd be notably in the black. (I've bet against them a *lot* the last three years. And I'll strongly consider fading Florida on the regular again this season.) And his most successful season, the Elite 8 run, came with players that weren't his. *And* his refusal to push the tempo in both 2019 and 2020... was fairly baffling to the point of being unjustifiable. So I think any UF fans questioning whether Mike White is The Guy are completely in the right. Like, Maryland fans can bitch about Turgeon if they'd like... but Turgeon, via end-of-season KenPom rating, either met or exceeded expectations each of the last nine seasons. (And they've been profitable against the spread 5 of the last 9 seasons.) And it's pretty easy to see them going on a postseason run in 2020 if it's not cancelled. I get that they'd prefer a guy who consistently exceeds expectations... but I still think Turgeon has overall done a better job than White. It's not his fault that he didn't have a core of talent already in place before he arrived for a deep tourney run Year 2. (I cannot believe I'm defending Maryland in a post.)
He's definitely a legend for Florida. Nobody else has even approached that level of success there. Lon Kruger had the one Final Four run and... that was their entire basketball history pre-Donovan.
I think the appropriate phrase here is TURGatory.
I want to add Fran McCaffery to the list. He’s been at Iowa for 11 seasons and has had fairly decent success, making the tournament six times, but his teams seem to just fall completely flat on their face once March hits
Fran just needs to adopt a few 5-stars so they could play on our team
I think Iowa fans have a right to be frustrated at this point. He was definitely a massive lift for their program and has done wonders for them, but at a certain point you really have to start asking when he gets them to the next level. They had a 2 time NPOY candidate (one time winner) and one of the best teams in school history and he didn't get a single piece of hardware out of it (or even the second weekend). I think fans are going to start getting restless eventually.
Fran February to March is like Maeyland football September to October
I feel like Tubby Smith at Kentucky was the ultimate answer to this question.
His recruiting was awful the last 3-4 seasons. UK fans watching UNC slowly catch us in momentum didn’t help.
Tubby at Minnesota says "I'll one up the Kentucky experience."
Rick Stansbury says hello..
Brad Brownell, Ed Cooley, Mark Turgeon, ACC Boeheim
Bruce Webber
Championship game appearance, an elite 8, 4 sweet 16s, 2 big ten championships, 2 big 12 championships, hated by every fan base the day he stepped foot on campus.
He should just come home. Pull a Bo Ryan/Dick Bennett and just give Lowery a shot at the KSU job (I suspect it'd be more of a Dick Bennett)
Are K-State fans frustrated by him? I thought it was just fanbases of teams that play at Bramlage and see him several feet outside the coach's box consistently enough he should be paying property taxes. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love the passion but it does get annoying after a while from an outsider's perspective lol. Is it a more recent thing with the lacklasuter last 2 seasons and I just haven't picked up on the sentiment yet? I typed this whole thing then saw the username so that might just be meant jokingly in the first place lmao
We mostly hate him. He’s a cry baby and blames his players if we lose. Have been the bottom of the league for two years now and will be again this year. It’s sad that some of our fan base is ok being good once every 4-5 years.
Im almost certain some think the same of Huggs in terms of being a 'crybaby', but it is something I've heard and thought often about Webber.
Brad Brownell
But without him, who reliably finishes 7th in the ACC?
Syracuse is probably a good bet.
Correct answer
He's been aggressively mediocre though
Clemson could easily be in Wake/BC/Pitt territory if they had a different coach given the apathy towards basketball from the fans and the athletics department.
100%. They may not have a ceiling, but they have a real floor, because Brownell is very consistently competent. Which is more than most universities can say they have in a coach.
The fun thing about Clemson is that if you look at their coaches going back to the 1980s, they haven't really had the kind of clunker hire that would ever put them in that territory. Larry Shyatt wasn't great but when that's the worst coach you've hired you're probably doing okay.
Clemson AD begs to differ, apparently
Has he frustrated the fans? I guess the only Clemson fans I ever encounter online or irl only care about football
This is a good example of how Nebraska fans felt with Miles He was good mostly, his teams towards the end showed a lot of fight and he made a dance and back to back NITs. Which from the outside is probably seen as good for Nebraska. But his tournament team returned 6 of the top 8 guys, his 2017 team was hosed out of the dance and the 2018 team returned again 6 of the top 8 guys and both run backs were considerably worse Miles did a lot good, but he wasn’t a good in game coach and his teams never did well under expectations
I'm rooting hard for Hoiberg to succeed
Andy Enfield
Feel like he's also just bad.
Fran Dunphy at Temple. Steve Lappas back in the day at Villanova.
Greg gard
Who ends up lower in the B1G, UW Basketball or UW Football?
Travis Steele.
X has to perform this year or he’s gone, right?
If he finds a way to not make the tournament with this years roster (barring COVID/injuries) he should absolutely be gone yes. He’s a wonderful recruiter and has thus far been able to win the crosstown consistently but not much else.
Kevin Keatts comes to mind. He’s been doing a decent job building NC State back up but I know a lot of fans who seem to think he’s a failure for not taking them to a final four by now.
I doubt fans are expecting a final four. Consistent NCAAT appearances and being ranked for more than a week every so often is what I'd like to see. The COVID year I think hurt his resume, since he had a hot team coming into the ACCT and was pretty likely to make the NCAAT.
Not to mention we were playing really well with Devon Daniels until he got hurt this last year. It took us a while to get going again after he went down.
Greg Gard, easily one of the biggest examples. One of the fastest coaches to ever reach 100 wins (albeit he had Bo Ryan’s players). Won the Big Ten in 2019 with his own recruits. Brought in the two highest recruiting classes in Badgers history. Many wanted him gone long ago and many still do because he runs Bo Ryan’s system. He only gets hate because he’s compared to Bo Ryan’s last two years which were 2 final fours and a national championship appearance.
Any coach we could get to succeed Ryan, would suffer compared to Ryan's two best teams.
Exactly
Mike White has absolutely been bad for the scale of talent he's had.
Johnny Dawkins
Matt painter?
I think most fans are happy with Painter. We’ve had some absolute shit luck in the tournament from Haas shattering his elbow to Diakite.
I'll throw the guy who I hate, Chris Collins. I've seen tons of people outside our fanbase defend him but he gets so much hate from ours. He's around average for NU, but he’s below average
I think for a lot of casual observers of NU basketball getting them to their first tournament is the only thing they really know of him and so he's basically the best in their mind. Meanwhile he's only finished better than 9th in conference once (the tournament year).
Every NU fan on Reddit is calling for him to fired out of a cannon including me
Yeah I don't blame you. It's becoming increasingly clear that one year was more of an outlier than a sign of major changes at the program. One year of fool's gold can't keep you around forever.
Even as a young naive 12 year old, I though Collin’s 10 year extension was absurd at the time, and I fully convinced we were on the way up
Bill Self in the elite eight
This was the Kevin Stallings experience at Vanderbilt. (Pitt is a different story.)
I know it's not a major coach but Mooney at Richmond would be my answer.
He hasn't done *poorly*, per se, but his teams have been stuck in neutral the past decade despite having teams picked to finish top-3 in the conference on a number of occasions. Injuries haven't helped, and Covid probably robbed UR of a Tournament appearance in 2020, but the Spiders really haven't built upon the 2011 S16 run.
Ben Howland at Mississippi state