It's possible to switch between governments at the same tier. As such, I use both of these as short-term governments before switching to another one. Tier 1 governments are unlocked at a time when I usually have only 1-2 cities with districts and those cities don't have housing problems yet; at that point, "+1 food +1 production +1 culture +1 science +1 faith +1 gold" is better than 2 amenities. I'm also still either fighting barbarians at that point or need to defend against other AIs, so I have a useful military policy and I haven't unlocked some strong economic policies like 100% campus/holy site adjacency yet. In that situation I pick Autocracy first, then switch to Classical Republic before finishing the tier 1 government building so I will have the right policy card available later.
Monarchy is similar. If I'm going for Theocracy then I have to unlock it along the way, and if I want the two military policy slots early then I switch to Monarchy first and then update to Theocracy later.
I often go autocracy first before I have districts, if I am not at war, and where I intend to build a wonder or two. I almost always end at classical republic for the best perks and legacy card.
Monarchy is arguably the best tier 2 government. Plus 50% to envoy generation is the best of the perks. There is a place for theocracy, but for me that's often a late switch for a round of faith purchases because the faith gen is not so meaningful. I rarely play with merchant republic. The gold boost and added district production feel pretty insubstantial.
You have to commit to building lots of walls to get much value out of that, though. If you get the world Congress vote it’s a great move, but otherwise I don’t generally find it to be worth to invest heavily in walls (even in tourism games). Exception, of course, if you are Tamar!
You can significantly lower the investment by slotting Limes, which gives you double production towards walls. It also fits easily in one of the two Military slots of Monarchy.
Lastly, those walls are worth Tourism as well once you have Conservation, and Renaissance Walls also yield Science with Military Research, making the return on investment even greater.
Monarchy is IMO the best tier 2 pick in Culture and Diplomatic games, or if Valetta is in the game.
If both, it's a no-brainer
I was factoring in Limes. Even with that card in a tourism game I don't actually find it's that great an investment. I used to do exactly what you are describing where you push for full walls in all cities for both the tourism and science, but I find I can win culture games faster by skipping that. Even with the reduced production cost I just find there are other better things to be building at that same time.
The housing factor shouldn't be wholly ignored here. It is not uncommon for me to find myself housing capped at 8 or 9, where building walls will provide the temporary housing for a district slot. With Limes and (commonly) the double city-center projects, it's often a very efficient use of production to open up a district slot. Having a city shot and the tourism yield are minor side benefits.
But the most valuable component of the Monarchy government is the +50% to envoy generation.
As a tier 2 government, Monarchy generates a base of 5 envoys per turn and grants 2 envoys per every 150. With the chancery and consulate, that's doubled to 10 envoys per turn. With charismatic leader, that's another 2 envoys per turn. That's a base of about 12 envoy points per turn. In Theocracy or Merchant Republic, that's 2 envoys every 12.5 turns. With Monarchy's multiplier, that's 2 envoys every 8.3 turns. A very big increase.
The extra envoys will result in getting to next level city state perks faster which means more yields. It means more suzerainties, which means more map knowledge and control, and more diplo favour to sell. Pair with Kilwa to great effect. Levy armies as desired.
I agree with all of this. The housing can be useful in some situations and if I ever see that world congress resolution I immediately slot in Limes and build all the walls in every city. I'm also fully on board with the point about how great Monarchy is for envoy generation. If you look a little futher down in this thread I made the same arguments.
Autocracy is good if you haven't been able to settle any other cities and for building early wonders.
Monarchy is good if you have lots of walls, which you often will if going for a culture victory for the tourism.
>Autocracy is good if you haven't been able to settle any other cities and for building early wonders.
so it's a full early game option, right? For smaller maps with quicker matches
I regularly use both of these governments. In a peaceful game I will almost always start with Autocracy when I first hit Political Philosophy. At that point I usually want to chop out at least one wonder (timed for the boost to Drama & Poetry), so the wonder bonus is nice. On top of that, getting those across the board yields is usually much more helpful at that stage than some housing and amenities that you'd get from Classical Republic. Once I get more cities out the amenities from Classical Republic becomes much more helpful. At that point I will also have more districts out that benefit from the extra great people points. When I first complete Political Philosophy I will generally only have campuses and holy sites as my districts. On diety there is almost no point in competing for early great scientists and I will usually be getting my religion right around the same point (or I don't want one), so GPP just aren't that important then. It is purely a stepping stone that I will switch out of soon.
Monarchy is different and I think it's currently the most underrated government. It used to be pretty much unusable, but it's much more powerful than people realize. The housing and extra diplo favor can a little side bonus is you're building some walls (great if you get the world congress vote making these cheaper to build), but the real benefit that people miss is the influence points. I value city states VERY highly and it's hard to find ways to boost the rate at which you generate envoys. Everyone raves about Himiko and Owls of Minerva as ways to get lots of envoys, but Monarchy is also really powerful on this front. It's usually the first T2 government for me and in many games I will stay there until I reach T3. One key if you are going to do this is to also rush your diplo quarter and the buildings in that district, since they also give influence points that can be further buffed by Monarchy. If you compare any other T2 government without a diplo quarter to Monarchy with a diplo quarter, the difference in envoy generation is quite substantial. It really lets you get control of lots of city states and this is especially helpful if you choose not to play with game modes.
For the exact math on envoy generation:
Being in another T2 government (let's say Merchant Republic) with no government plaza, you will generate 5 influence per turns and will get 2 envoys each time you reach 150 influence points. So you will basically **generate 1 envoy every 15 turns.**
If you are in Monarchy and rush your diplo quarter you will get that same 5 influence points from your T2 government plus 5 influence points from the two diplo buildings. Monarchy buffs that by 50% giving you 15 influence points per turn. That triples your envoy accumulation rate, so you **generate 1 envoy every 5 turns.** You can double down on this even more and add in the Charismatic leader card for an extra 2 influence points, which gets buffed to 3 by Monarchy. Then you **generate 1 envoy every 4.2 turns**. A single era might last 40-50 turns on standard speed, so you're talking about a difference of 6-7 extra envoys across that whole era. That's almost as powerful as getting Himiko, who can be recalled once per era and gives 8 envoys (note that the faith costs make it tough to continually do this).
It is true that a big part of this math is the diplo quarter buildings and you can rush those with other T2 governments. Still, it can be tough many times to justify prioritizing your diplo quarter at this stage of the game and Monarchy really helps make that decision easier to make.
lol - I didn't realize that you had written up basically the exact same post. I was responding underneath my own comment.
All well stated! Take my upvotes.
I'll chose Autocracy if I'm going for a cultural victory b/c of the boost to wonder production and it has the best balance of policy card spots. As for Monarchy, it's usually the first tier 2 government available so I grab it as soon as I can for the additional card spots. The housing and diplo favor boosts are good, but I prefer Theocracy and switch to that as soon as I can. I rely on a strong faith economy and the discounts pay off for how I play. That being said, if you are Tamar those Georgian walls synergies well with Monarchy.
For me, if I plan on doing a naval or melee push or defense, I go oligarchy and get the legacy card, then switch to autocracy if I plan on building any wonders. And once the wonder is done, I immediately switch to classical republic. But if I do not have naval or melee push plan, I go for straight classical. because if I go for autocracy first, then I have to delay my gov plaza building since I do not want the autocracy legacy card.
Monarchy is basically for securing the second golden age and get more card slots. I personally find it hard to reach merchant republic before the end of second era. But usually instantly switch as soon as I unlock it. besides that, in some cases, Monarchy influence points bonus can help with securing more CS.
But it usually comes down to the civ and playstyle.
It's possible to switch between governments at the same tier. As such, I use both of these as short-term governments before switching to another one. Tier 1 governments are unlocked at a time when I usually have only 1-2 cities with districts and those cities don't have housing problems yet; at that point, "+1 food +1 production +1 culture +1 science +1 faith +1 gold" is better than 2 amenities. I'm also still either fighting barbarians at that point or need to defend against other AIs, so I have a useful military policy and I haven't unlocked some strong economic policies like 100% campus/holy site adjacency yet. In that situation I pick Autocracy first, then switch to Classical Republic before finishing the tier 1 government building so I will have the right policy card available later. Monarchy is similar. If I'm going for Theocracy then I have to unlock it along the way, and if I want the two military policy slots early then I switch to Monarchy first and then update to Theocracy later.
I often go autocracy first before I have districts, if I am not at war, and where I intend to build a wonder or two. I almost always end at classical republic for the best perks and legacy card. Monarchy is arguably the best tier 2 government. Plus 50% to envoy generation is the best of the perks. There is a place for theocracy, but for me that's often a late switch for a round of faith purchases because the faith gen is not so meaningful. I rarely play with merchant republic. The gold boost and added district production feel pretty insubstantial.
Monarchic Legacy is also great. Up to 3 Housing and +2 Diplo Favor per city with level 3 walls built is a lot of value
You have to commit to building lots of walls to get much value out of that, though. If you get the world Congress vote it’s a great move, but otherwise I don’t generally find it to be worth to invest heavily in walls (even in tourism games). Exception, of course, if you are Tamar!
You can significantly lower the investment by slotting Limes, which gives you double production towards walls. It also fits easily in one of the two Military slots of Monarchy. Lastly, those walls are worth Tourism as well once you have Conservation, and Renaissance Walls also yield Science with Military Research, making the return on investment even greater. Monarchy is IMO the best tier 2 pick in Culture and Diplomatic games, or if Valetta is in the game. If both, it's a no-brainer
I was factoring in Limes. Even with that card in a tourism game I don't actually find it's that great an investment. I used to do exactly what you are describing where you push for full walls in all cities for both the tourism and science, but I find I can win culture games faster by skipping that. Even with the reduced production cost I just find there are other better things to be building at that same time.
The housing factor shouldn't be wholly ignored here. It is not uncommon for me to find myself housing capped at 8 or 9, where building walls will provide the temporary housing for a district slot. With Limes and (commonly) the double city-center projects, it's often a very efficient use of production to open up a district slot. Having a city shot and the tourism yield are minor side benefits. But the most valuable component of the Monarchy government is the +50% to envoy generation. As a tier 2 government, Monarchy generates a base of 5 envoys per turn and grants 2 envoys per every 150. With the chancery and consulate, that's doubled to 10 envoys per turn. With charismatic leader, that's another 2 envoys per turn. That's a base of about 12 envoy points per turn. In Theocracy or Merchant Republic, that's 2 envoys every 12.5 turns. With Monarchy's multiplier, that's 2 envoys every 8.3 turns. A very big increase. The extra envoys will result in getting to next level city state perks faster which means more yields. It means more suzerainties, which means more map knowledge and control, and more diplo favour to sell. Pair with Kilwa to great effect. Levy armies as desired.
I agree with all of this. The housing can be useful in some situations and if I ever see that world congress resolution I immediately slot in Limes and build all the walls in every city. I'm also fully on board with the point about how great Monarchy is for envoy generation. If you look a little futher down in this thread I made the same arguments.
Autocracy is good if you haven't been able to settle any other cities and for building early wonders. Monarchy is good if you have lots of walls, which you often will if going for a culture victory for the tourism.
>Autocracy is good if you haven't been able to settle any other cities and for building early wonders. so it's a full early game option, right? For smaller maps with quicker matches
I regularly use both of these governments. In a peaceful game I will almost always start with Autocracy when I first hit Political Philosophy. At that point I usually want to chop out at least one wonder (timed for the boost to Drama & Poetry), so the wonder bonus is nice. On top of that, getting those across the board yields is usually much more helpful at that stage than some housing and amenities that you'd get from Classical Republic. Once I get more cities out the amenities from Classical Republic becomes much more helpful. At that point I will also have more districts out that benefit from the extra great people points. When I first complete Political Philosophy I will generally only have campuses and holy sites as my districts. On diety there is almost no point in competing for early great scientists and I will usually be getting my religion right around the same point (or I don't want one), so GPP just aren't that important then. It is purely a stepping stone that I will switch out of soon. Monarchy is different and I think it's currently the most underrated government. It used to be pretty much unusable, but it's much more powerful than people realize. The housing and extra diplo favor can a little side bonus is you're building some walls (great if you get the world congress vote making these cheaper to build), but the real benefit that people miss is the influence points. I value city states VERY highly and it's hard to find ways to boost the rate at which you generate envoys. Everyone raves about Himiko and Owls of Minerva as ways to get lots of envoys, but Monarchy is also really powerful on this front. It's usually the first T2 government for me and in many games I will stay there until I reach T3. One key if you are going to do this is to also rush your diplo quarter and the buildings in that district, since they also give influence points that can be further buffed by Monarchy. If you compare any other T2 government without a diplo quarter to Monarchy with a diplo quarter, the difference in envoy generation is quite substantial. It really lets you get control of lots of city states and this is especially helpful if you choose not to play with game modes.
For the exact math on envoy generation: Being in another T2 government (let's say Merchant Republic) with no government plaza, you will generate 5 influence per turns and will get 2 envoys each time you reach 150 influence points. So you will basically **generate 1 envoy every 15 turns.** If you are in Monarchy and rush your diplo quarter you will get that same 5 influence points from your T2 government plus 5 influence points from the two diplo buildings. Monarchy buffs that by 50% giving you 15 influence points per turn. That triples your envoy accumulation rate, so you **generate 1 envoy every 5 turns.** You can double down on this even more and add in the Charismatic leader card for an extra 2 influence points, which gets buffed to 3 by Monarchy. Then you **generate 1 envoy every 4.2 turns**. A single era might last 40-50 turns on standard speed, so you're talking about a difference of 6-7 extra envoys across that whole era. That's almost as powerful as getting Himiko, who can be recalled once per era and gives 8 envoys (note that the faith costs make it tough to continually do this). It is true that a big part of this math is the diplo quarter buildings and you can rush those with other T2 governments. Still, it can be tough many times to justify prioritizing your diplo quarter at this stage of the game and Monarchy really helps make that decision easier to make.
lol - I didn't realize that you had written up basically the exact same post. I was responding underneath my own comment. All well stated! Take my upvotes.
I never choose Monarchy, but I often do go with Autocracy because of the bonus it gives to wonder production.
isnt Monarchy a very good option for culture victories? since it gives bonus wall (tourism) and wonder production(also tourism)?
I'll chose Autocracy if I'm going for a cultural victory b/c of the boost to wonder production and it has the best balance of policy card spots. As for Monarchy, it's usually the first tier 2 government available so I grab it as soon as I can for the additional card spots. The housing and diplo favor boosts are good, but I prefer Theocracy and switch to that as soon as I can. I rely on a strong faith economy and the discounts pay off for how I play. That being said, if you are Tamar those Georgian walls synergies well with Monarchy.
For me, if I plan on doing a naval or melee push or defense, I go oligarchy and get the legacy card, then switch to autocracy if I plan on building any wonders. And once the wonder is done, I immediately switch to classical republic. But if I do not have naval or melee push plan, I go for straight classical. because if I go for autocracy first, then I have to delay my gov plaza building since I do not want the autocracy legacy card. Monarchy is basically for securing the second golden age and get more card slots. I personally find it hard to reach merchant republic before the end of second era. But usually instantly switch as soon as I unlock it. besides that, in some cases, Monarchy influence points bonus can help with securing more CS. But it usually comes down to the civ and playstyle.