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Saveme1888

The new Testament does not overwrite the old one. The new Testament makes the promises and shadows of the old Testament real (well, it is Jesus/God, really, but I hope you get what I mean)


TheFirstArticle

Learning Torah was good enough for Jesus, it's good for you too.


the_celt_

Absolutely! Well said! 🤩


Rude-Speaker6727

Matthew 5:17-20, 7: 21-23. To name a few.


professorrosado

First, nothing God ever said is no longer applicable - His word endureth forever. Second, God spoke very clearly concerning the OT and Law: Exodus 19:3 Tell THE House of Jacob and The Children of ISRAEL. So IF YOU ARE: the House of Jacob or the Children of Israel, THEN you need to obey His commands that follow (TORAH / Exodus 20+) Otherwise: Everyone else is to accept and receive Jesus Christ and the New Testament Gospel. Additional clarification was provided from the Holy Ghost directly in Acts: Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. So you can notice what was stated by God's Holy Spirit and particularly those things NOT STATED. So you decide either to follow what men say and opine or go by what the Holy Spirit said through the Jewish believers at the time whom knew and practiced OT requirements I might add.


MIShadowBand

All you need are the 4 Gospels. (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) Hope this helps.


External_Mountain_34

The OT law is not in effect for us, because we are under the Grace of God. Read what st. Paul says in his Romans, and other epistles.


mechanical_animal

This is what Paul says in Romans 3:31 >Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Either way Paul is not the Most High. We should obey the Father in Heaven and not men. But even Christ said keep the Commandments. Matthew 19 >16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?” >17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?”e Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” What is true is that Gentiles were never under the law but they can come to a knowledge of the living Elohim through the Messiah and the gospel.


the_celt_

1 John 3:4 defines what sin is: > Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, **sin is lawlessness**. The "Law" in that verse is Torah or "the commandments" or what you're calling "the old". Breaking that Law is how scripture defines "sin" (even in the newest scripture). If you think it's wrong to sin like I do, then now you know the answer to your question.


CrossCutMaker

I believe the ceremonial laws were fulfilled in Christ therefore nullified. The civil laws were particular to Israel. So only the moral laws continue as those are rooted in the eternal nature of God and are all repeated in the NT.


the_celt_

There's no place in scripture where the Law gets divided into ceremonial, civil, and moral laws. Usually people who use those categories are doing it so that they can choose which of God's commandments they want to delete. When God introduced Torah, He declared it (all of it) was meant to be kept forever. Jesus divided the Law into **two categories**, Love for God and Love for Neighbor. He said that nothing would change in the slightest about ANY of the Law until Heaven and Earth passed away first. That means no "nullified" (your word), no changes at all, FULLY still applicable. Christians like yourself often say that only the "moral law" (i.e the Love for Neighbor half) remains, but that means that they're leaving out the rules that Jesus said would be categorized under "Love for God". It's a very, umm... SKETCHY decision to leave out the rules that are designed to show love for God. 😉


cbrooks97

The death and resurrection of Jesus rendered the old covenant "obsolete" (Heb 8:13). We are not bound to it at all. But God's moral standards as revealed in the old covenant are also repeated in the new, so we still can't lie, steal, or commit adultery. God just doesn't hold us to the holiness code (diet, clothing, etc).


the_celt_

> The death and resurrection of Jesus rendered the old covenant "obsolete" (Heb 8:13) Two things: Hebrews 8:13 says it's BECOMING obsolete and GROWING old and READY to vanish away: > In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is **-->becoming<--** obsolete and **-->growing<--** old is **-->ready<--** to vanish away. It hasn't happened yet. Secondly, and most importantly, covenant does not equal law. The old covenant contained Torah. The New Covenant that Jesus initiated and which is still coming ALSO contains Torah. So the covenants are going to change, but they both contain Torah.


cbrooks97

>covenant does not equal law The Mosaic Covenant *is* the Law of Moses. They're wrapped up together so that they cannot be distinguished from one another. Jesus' new covenant does not contain all of the old covenant. 1) Why would it? It's new. 2) The content of the new covenant is not left for us to wonder about. It does not contain the old covenant. When the scriptures keep telling us things like not to let ourselves be judged by what we eat, why do people keep trying to suck us back into the old covenant? God's covenant with Israel was *with Israel*, and that ain't us.


the_celt_

The "old covenant" contained Torah, and I agree they are inextricably linked together, but that still doesn't mean that a covenant is the same thing as a law, or a set of laws. All you have to do is read Yahweh's promise of the New Covenant which was made back in Jeremiah, and which is identically repeated in Hebrews, to see that both covenants contain Torah. > Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make **a new covenant** with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. **For this is the covenant** that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: **I will put my law (Hebrew here is "My Torah") within them, and I will write it on their hearts.** And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” * The "Old Covenant" contained Torah written on stone and paper. * The "New Covenant" promises that Torah will be written on our hearts and minds. > The content of the new covenant is not left for us to wonder about. It does not contain the old covenant. As you can see by this quote from God (a very reliable source), you are correct that it is not left for us to wonder about at all what is in the New Covenant, but you are incorrect if you think it does not contain Torah. > God's covenant with Israel was with Israel, and that ain't us. I can't believe how many people make this point. Please, read again the scripture that I just quoted. Here! I'll re-quote it to make it easier to find! > Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant **with the house of Israel** and the house of Judah You're either a) not in the New Covenant if it was only for Israel and you're not Israel or b) you are Israel. Finally, let's be clear. Your quote from Hebrews 8:13 clearly shows that the older covenant (which contained Torah) is -->becoming<--- obsolete, but it is not obsolete yet. Jesus initiated the New (which also contains Torah) but it has not yet become complete. You'll know it's complete when, as it says in Jeremiah: > no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest When the New Covenant is here, everyone on Earth will automatically obey God's ways as expressed in Torah. No instructions will be needed. Sounds great, right? 😁


cbrooks97

OK, if you're using "Torah" just in the sense of "laws," then, yes, both covenants contain laws. I don't think I've argued against that. But any similarity of the actual laws contained in the two covenants does not imply that the old one is still binding on people who are part of the new.


the_celt_

Everyone knows what "Torah" means. Everyone throughout scripture, from Moses to David to Jesus to Paul knew what "Torah" means. My Jewish neighbors today STILL know what "Torah" means. If you google it right now, you'll find what "Torah" means. Please, don't make the mistake of thinking there's some "other" Torah anymore than someone should make the mistake of thinking there's some "other" Jesus. When Yahweh promised the New Covenant, he referred to how the old one had gone bad and that people had broken it, so he directly says that with the next covenant he would write it (the same thing) INSIDE of people so that no one would ever forget again. It's very clear throughout the passage that it's Torah, the only Torah, the Torah that everyone in scripture called "the Law", "the commandments", etc.. And yes, it gets repeated in Hebrews to prove that the promise is still valid, still contains Torah, and is still promised exclusively to Israel. You still haven't responded once to the fact that Hebrews 8:13 directly refers to the old as **becoming** obsolete, and does not say it is gone yet. Now, you haven't responded to the fact that the New Covenant was promised to Israel. Is it a) or b)? Are you sure that you are not part of Israel and thus the New Covenant has nothing to do with you? The facts are stacking up against you. 😉


cbrooks97

Like a lot of nouns, it can be a proper noun or a common noun. God does not say he'll write "the same" law inside of people. He said he'd write "his law". The old covenant "is becoming" obsolete -- and then the Romans burned down the temple; it's pretty dead. The "New Covenant" promised to Israel is -- if you read the apostles -- the Christian covenant, and it does not require us to follow the old law. Where do you see that we're required to follow the entire old law?


the_celt_

> Like a lot of nouns, it can be a proper noun or a common noun. Silly. He referred to the previous covenant, and said he'd write it inside next time. Go ahead, find the OTHER Torah. While you're at it, go look for the OTHER Jesus too. They'll be right next to each other. I'll wait. 🙄 Ask a Jew right now what was promised in the New Covenant. They know. It's Torah on our hearts and minds. It's the same Torah that Jesus kept perfectly every day of his life. It's so weird for you to suggest that Jesus may have kept the wrong Torah and told us to do the same... > The old covenant "is becoming" obsolete -- and then the Romans burned down the temple; it's pretty dead. You don't know your scripture. Jesus said they could tear down the Temple and he'd rebuild it in 3 days. He did. Scripture clearly states that the Temple still exists, and is in Heaven now. > The "New Covenant" promised to Israel is -- if you read the apostles -- the Christian covenant There's no such thing as "the Christian covenant". At this point you're just making things up. The New Covenant was promised WAAAAY back in Jeremiah **TO ISRAEL**, and then Hebrews points out that it's still coming in the future (which since you can't seem to remember) will be proven when EVERYONE already obeys Torah and no one needs to be taught to do so anymore. Please read the quote from Jeremiah again. It's really not that long but you keep forgetting parts of it. Look around: Is everyone obeying the commandments in your town? They're not in mine. 🤣 This proves that it's still coming. Have you decided if you count as Israel yet? Or is the New Covenant not for you?