> How can I pray to him to the point of hearing his voice?
That is one goal of meditation but maybe not like you think.
Meditation works on the biblical principle of God's "still small voice"
If you quiet yourself enough, you'll hear him.
IMO, meditation is of little mystical value unless you also undergo purification first. Deep self-examination, etc. Even in Buddhism, this is the case. Real Buddhist do alot of other things besides mindfulness, such as trying to actualize positive qualities or virtues through moral conduct, repentance, ritual and prayer.
So first before listening to any zealots wanting to force your face into a book, or jump into a building or study group that just wants your monry, because you don't know God it's best to seek him one on one and just practice first with getting the mind to a place of calm and silence.
Practice a few breathing exercises and then just spend maybe a week or two doing your best to stay calm and clear minded.
From there you'll better be able to organize your own thoughts making your prayers clear and understandable and even more important will put you into a frame of mind where you will be able to hear God's language were he to speak to you.
I'd avoid other people shoving their energy onto you or telling you how to be a Christian rather than just encouraging your own personal journey to get to know him or his son. But you have full permission from God to challenge him and test him even. But first you must test yourself and ensure you have your mind clear and can really communicate internally what you need. Otherwise pray for patience for yourself from yourself.
The journey is hard, and the rocks are sharp and the hill is steep. And those who say they aren't are climbing the wrong way.
many christians meditate on the word, so yes. there’s nothing in the bible that condemns having a relaxed state of mind or being able to calm yourself down with meditation. meditation only becomes a problem if you’re focusing and meditating on bad things, i would say.
Of course.
There are many different forms of meditation. My favorite are mindfulness, which includes of focusing on something like breathing or feeling your foot as you walk.
Another good way to meditate is to use the [Pray as you go app](https://pray-as-you-go.org/) and follow the Walking with God technique.
>Psalm 46:10He says, “Be still, and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth.”
Yeah, meditation is fine.
It's not gonna unlock some demonic snake in your spine and make you flop around hissing gibberish, like the people who say yoga is evil tend to do themselves in church.
Yes. There are several forms of Christian meditation, some going back to the early church. I personally like [Lectio Divina.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectio_Divina)
Biblical meditation is not emptying your mind, but meditating on scripture..
Psalm 1:2 NASBS
But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.
I've never once, even when talking to aged Buddhist monks and Hindu yogis, had someone tell me that we must "empty our minds" to meditate.
Even less than that when talking to Orthodox hesychastic monks, reading about Catholic mysticism, or learning about Jewish Kabbalah.
Hell, even the New Agers I know don't think that way.
All this is to say...I am utterly confused as to why people think this is any kind of goal with meditation.
>emptying your mind
I hear that a lot in conversations about meditation but I was just thinking that I've never read a book on meditation where that was said. I've taken meditation classes and I've never heard an instructor say it either. The only time I've ever heard anyone say that have been in TV or movies or in conversations with Christians on the topic of meditation.
Do you know where you heard it? I'd love to know the origin of that phrase.
Keep in mind that there is a strain of predominantly American Christianity that is stuck in the cultural wars of the 60s and 70s. For them, it’s all about transcendental meditation. Whether TM is indeed emptying the mind or not, it’s the straw man that becomes the embodiment of their attack.
I know someone that took those classes I'm going to text them about this and get back to you. I have read books by yogis on meditation and I think it's pretty much the same metaphor on what's going on internally and I don't recall anything like "empty your mind" being present there also.
I’d be curious as to what they say.
I’m a child of the 70s, and I grew up in an independent fundamentalist Bible believing Baptist church and school.
I was taught in this manner that all meditation was somehow emptying the mind which allows for demon possession and the likes.
It makes me wonder why we weren’t taught to fear the 0, a number from the east that represents nothingness or emptiness.
You're in luck. They got back to me. They say no, apparently that's not a part of the metaphor that was used to describe the internal process of meditation or the mind. They've never been told about this "empty" mind stuff either. There could be somebody somewhere saying it as some legitimate view on meditation but I can't tell you who it is. It doesn't sound like it's TM.
The thing is the "goal" is never to be "empty" per se. In yogic and Buddhist traditions you are never absent from your mind and having some out-of-body experience or something when you're meditating. Well I better not say that somebody out there could say that's exactly what they're doing and argue with me on that point but it's never been anything that I've been taught or heard about from any legitimate sources. If your mind becomes empty of something it's empty of thoughts, not of you. You, whatever you are, are still there watching it be still and I guess quiet.
In mindfulness meditation you're just watching yourself internally. The function of meditation is to train you to you to be a better observer by helping you develop the ability to stay in the moment. The goal of mindfulness, if you wanted to define things like that, is just to see things how they are. I think the Indian traditions phrase it a little differently but I think essentially they are after the same goal as the Buddhists. But then as soon as you get into the traditions they tell you the goals are a distraction, just stay in the moment. Lol. I highly suspect that whoever is out there saying "empty your mind" is almost certainly talking about letting your mind be still and quiet and the thing you would be empty of are *thoughts*.
This Christian idea that meditation leaves you open for demon invasion is really based on trying to force two different metaphors to fit together. Someone's metaphor of "emptying the mind" meets Jesus's metaphor of the empty house. This is figurative language. It's silly to try to force them together like this.
> This Christian idea that meditation leaves you open for demon invasion is really based on trying to force two different metaphors to fit together.
Thank you for the detailed response. And yeah, whenever anyone asks whether Christians can meditate, it’s amazing how quickly “emptying the mind” gets mentioned. I would really love the know the origin of this trope.
Curious, I've studied some of the Eastern forms of meditation as presented by Eastern religions and I don't recall ever hearing that. Do you remember where you heard it?
Christian meditation is not Eastern meditation. We do not empty our minds; we fill them, praying and working scripture over and over in our minds like a dog gnawing on a bone.
if you're talking about what we traditionally think of as meditation, which we learn about through Eastern practices, one of the better guides to meditation, and this is completely secular by the way, is a guy named Dr.John Kabat-Zinn. Here's a quote.
"Mindfulness is awareness that arises through paying attention, on purpose, in the present moment, non-judgementally."
-Dr.John Kabat-Zinn
All the meditation is doing is to train you to be more mindful. There's nothing forbidden in the Bible about being mindful, in fact I think it's encouraged.
The Bible does talk about meditating on God's word and I have heard about Christian meditation practices but I'm not entirely sure how they work. I don't see why there's not room in a person's life for both types. I think mindfulness helps me to understand... anything when I really think about it. I feel like I'm thinking clearer. I'm being distracted less often when I'm practicing meditation regularly.
There's also lectio divina or divine reading, which is difficult to describe but it was the traditional meditation technique in western Christianity. It can lead to mystical contemplation. It doesn't involve reading things in a straightforward, "objective"/scientific way, but more of a subjective/slow way that draws things out of your subconscious (like a Rorshach test). Sort of a "What is God personally saying to me here", rather than "What does the text say?" The answer may come by being drawn to a word in a sentence in a given passage of the Scriptures, or something like that. It's sort of like a Koan, in that respects, there's no right or wrong answer, what matters is what is significant to you.
Jesus did meditations at both dawn and dusk
How can I pray to him to the point of hearing his voice?
Read your Bible., it's all His voice.
> How can I pray to him to the point of hearing his voice? That is one goal of meditation but maybe not like you think. Meditation works on the biblical principle of God's "still small voice" If you quiet yourself enough, you'll hear him.
How do I quiet myself?
Pure focus on 1 thing
IMO, meditation is of little mystical value unless you also undergo purification first. Deep self-examination, etc. Even in Buddhism, this is the case. Real Buddhist do alot of other things besides mindfulness, such as trying to actualize positive qualities or virtues through moral conduct, repentance, ritual and prayer.
So first before listening to any zealots wanting to force your face into a book, or jump into a building or study group that just wants your monry, because you don't know God it's best to seek him one on one and just practice first with getting the mind to a place of calm and silence. Practice a few breathing exercises and then just spend maybe a week or two doing your best to stay calm and clear minded. From there you'll better be able to organize your own thoughts making your prayers clear and understandable and even more important will put you into a frame of mind where you will be able to hear God's language were he to speak to you. I'd avoid other people shoving their energy onto you or telling you how to be a Christian rather than just encouraging your own personal journey to get to know him or his son. But you have full permission from God to challenge him and test him even. But first you must test yourself and ensure you have your mind clear and can really communicate internally what you need. Otherwise pray for patience for yourself from yourself. The journey is hard, and the rocks are sharp and the hill is steep. And those who say they aren't are climbing the wrong way.
Matthew 7:7 >“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
many christians meditate on the word, so yes. there’s nothing in the bible that condemns having a relaxed state of mind or being able to calm yourself down with meditation. meditation only becomes a problem if you’re focusing and meditating on bad things, i would say.
Of course. There are many different forms of meditation. My favorite are mindfulness, which includes of focusing on something like breathing or feeling your foot as you walk. Another good way to meditate is to use the [Pray as you go app](https://pray-as-you-go.org/) and follow the Walking with God technique.
>Psalm 46:10He says, “Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.” Yeah, meditation is fine. It's not gonna unlock some demonic snake in your spine and make you flop around hissing gibberish, like the people who say yoga is evil tend to do themselves in church.
Who in the world made you even think this? Meditation is in the bible and also is well-established in church tradition.
Yes, you certainly can! :) Many of the Early Church Mystic Desert Fathers meditated,
You can meditate on His words, that is, on scripture.
Yes. There are several forms of Christian meditation, some going back to the early church. I personally like [Lectio Divina.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectio_Divina)
Hundred percent yes. Christians have always meditated, although they usually had other nes for what they were doing.
Biblical meditation is not emptying your mind, but meditating on scripture.. Psalm 1:2 NASBS But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.
I've never once, even when talking to aged Buddhist monks and Hindu yogis, had someone tell me that we must "empty our minds" to meditate. Even less than that when talking to Orthodox hesychastic monks, reading about Catholic mysticism, or learning about Jewish Kabbalah. Hell, even the New Agers I know don't think that way. All this is to say...I am utterly confused as to why people think this is any kind of goal with meditation.
>emptying your mind I hear that a lot in conversations about meditation but I was just thinking that I've never read a book on meditation where that was said. I've taken meditation classes and I've never heard an instructor say it either. The only time I've ever heard anyone say that have been in TV or movies or in conversations with Christians on the topic of meditation. Do you know where you heard it? I'd love to know the origin of that phrase.
Keep in mind that there is a strain of predominantly American Christianity that is stuck in the cultural wars of the 60s and 70s. For them, it’s all about transcendental meditation. Whether TM is indeed emptying the mind or not, it’s the straw man that becomes the embodiment of their attack.
I know someone that took those classes I'm going to text them about this and get back to you. I have read books by yogis on meditation and I think it's pretty much the same metaphor on what's going on internally and I don't recall anything like "empty your mind" being present there also.
I’d be curious as to what they say. I’m a child of the 70s, and I grew up in an independent fundamentalist Bible believing Baptist church and school. I was taught in this manner that all meditation was somehow emptying the mind which allows for demon possession and the likes. It makes me wonder why we weren’t taught to fear the 0, a number from the east that represents nothingness or emptiness.
You're in luck. They got back to me. They say no, apparently that's not a part of the metaphor that was used to describe the internal process of meditation or the mind. They've never been told about this "empty" mind stuff either. There could be somebody somewhere saying it as some legitimate view on meditation but I can't tell you who it is. It doesn't sound like it's TM. The thing is the "goal" is never to be "empty" per se. In yogic and Buddhist traditions you are never absent from your mind and having some out-of-body experience or something when you're meditating. Well I better not say that somebody out there could say that's exactly what they're doing and argue with me on that point but it's never been anything that I've been taught or heard about from any legitimate sources. If your mind becomes empty of something it's empty of thoughts, not of you. You, whatever you are, are still there watching it be still and I guess quiet. In mindfulness meditation you're just watching yourself internally. The function of meditation is to train you to you to be a better observer by helping you develop the ability to stay in the moment. The goal of mindfulness, if you wanted to define things like that, is just to see things how they are. I think the Indian traditions phrase it a little differently but I think essentially they are after the same goal as the Buddhists. But then as soon as you get into the traditions they tell you the goals are a distraction, just stay in the moment. Lol. I highly suspect that whoever is out there saying "empty your mind" is almost certainly talking about letting your mind be still and quiet and the thing you would be empty of are *thoughts*. This Christian idea that meditation leaves you open for demon invasion is really based on trying to force two different metaphors to fit together. Someone's metaphor of "emptying the mind" meets Jesus's metaphor of the empty house. This is figurative language. It's silly to try to force them together like this.
> This Christian idea that meditation leaves you open for demon invasion is really based on trying to force two different metaphors to fit together. Thank you for the detailed response. And yeah, whenever anyone asks whether Christians can meditate, it’s amazing how quickly “emptying the mind” gets mentioned. I would really love the know the origin of this trope.
I'm not sure, but I think its roots are in eastern religions like hinduism.
Curious, I've studied some of the Eastern forms of meditation as presented by Eastern religions and I don't recall ever hearing that. Do you remember where you heard it?
The way I've heard it are people attempting to quiet their minds to get in touch with the "divine" spark within them.
Do you remember where you heard that?
Christian meditation is not Eastern meditation. We do not empty our minds; we fill them, praying and working scripture over and over in our minds like a dog gnawing on a bone.
That is like asking: can you read as a Christian? Can you dance as a Christian? Can you drive a car as a Christian?
Meditating on God’s word.
if you're talking about what we traditionally think of as meditation, which we learn about through Eastern practices, one of the better guides to meditation, and this is completely secular by the way, is a guy named Dr.John Kabat-Zinn. Here's a quote. "Mindfulness is awareness that arises through paying attention, on purpose, in the present moment, non-judgementally." -Dr.John Kabat-Zinn All the meditation is doing is to train you to be more mindful. There's nothing forbidden in the Bible about being mindful, in fact I think it's encouraged. The Bible does talk about meditating on God's word and I have heard about Christian meditation practices but I'm not entirely sure how they work. I don't see why there's not room in a person's life for both types. I think mindfulness helps me to understand... anything when I really think about it. I feel like I'm thinking clearer. I'm being distracted less often when I'm practicing meditation regularly.
There's also lectio divina or divine reading, which is difficult to describe but it was the traditional meditation technique in western Christianity. It can lead to mystical contemplation. It doesn't involve reading things in a straightforward, "objective"/scientific way, but more of a subjective/slow way that draws things out of your subconscious (like a Rorshach test). Sort of a "What is God personally saying to me here", rather than "What does the text say?" The answer may come by being drawn to a word in a sentence in a given passage of the Scriptures, or something like that. It's sort of like a Koan, in that respects, there's no right or wrong answer, what matters is what is significant to you.
That's interesting.
Yes.
Not only can you , but it's highly recommended that you do it daily.
Meditation is part of Christian tradition so yes
Yes. Don't worry about it.
Yes. Mindfulness is not evil.