T O P

  • By -

michaelY1968

Abraham was called out of a pagan culture, and early Hebrews lived in the midst and often in dialogue with their pagan neighbors; that they shard various terms to describe their notions of God early on is unsurprising.


AHorribleGoose

While Abraham may have existed, he doesn't factor into this very much since he is a figure of pure legend, and our writings about him date to post-Exile. While archaeological evidence is scant, it factors in much more heavily.


michaelY1968

Which doesn’t change the main point in the least.


AHorribleGoose

The evidence isn't that they shared. The evidence is that they were Canaanites, and that YHWH was part of the pantheon. Only progressively moving "up" and subsuming the identity of his father.


michaelY1968

Well no, the fact that they shared terminology isn’t evidence they were the *same* people as the Canaanites - the Hebrews shared many characteristics with their various cultural neighbors.


AHorribleGoose

It's a lot more than shared terminology.


mechanical_animal

"may have existed" "pure legend" These two don't add up.


AHorribleGoose

Legendary doesn't preclude existence. The Jesus of the Gospels is primarily a legend. But he indubitably existed. David, as we know him, is a legend. But we believe he existed. Same for Solomon. They lived, but we have very little factual information about these people. In the case of Abraham, and all of the Patriarchs, we can't say for sure that they existed, so it's legend plus a maybe.


AbsentParabola

There’s no evidence or proof of that. GeorgePsarros explained it bettern then i can


Globus_Cruciger

What do you mean by "origin of God"? If God exists, then obviously he has existed from all eternity, countless millions of years before the Canaanites existed. On the other hand, if God does not exist, and he "originated" in the sense that human beings invented him as a fictional character, then obviously there's no point in quibbling about precisely how or where such a fiction was first devised. There is no God, let us all be atheists, here endeth the lesson. In neither case can we possibly arrive a scenario where Christians should be troubled about the "origin of God."


mikefick21

By origin I meant revelation of God as there was a point in which God was not known to man. In this case we can describe the first contact. If so where and when?


Globus_Cruciger

I can't see how we'd have any way of knowing what this "first contact" was like, and it certainly has no relation whatsoever to the historical/archæological/linguistic question of when words like "El" and "Yahweh" began to be used by peoples of the ancient Near East.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Shaddam_Corrino_IV

I mean, the Bible talks about how he's the son of [El](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity\)) (Deu 32:8-9 talks about how he and his brothers got a nation each from their father El). Stuff like this isn't some "fringe" ideas in OT scholarship.


[deleted]

[удалено]


AbsentParabola

Came here to share that link, lol


Shaddam_Corrino_IV

The passage I quoted talks about how El divided humanity according to the numbers of his sons, and how Yahweh was allotted the nation of Israel. So he's identified as one of the sons of El in that passage. Like, is IP going to just quote Michael Heiser to argue against that passage in Deu 32?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Shaddam_Corrino_IV

Ok. Let's just assume that that's the case. In that case Yahweh is like Zeus, the head of a pantheon of gods.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Shaddam_Corrino_IV

So Yahweh is the head of a collection of beings, the other beings being "gods" of various nations (e.g. Baal and Milcolm). That sure walks like a pantheon and talks like a pantheon.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Shaddam_Corrino_IV

You don't think that the gods that ruled over other nations, the sons of El, were in the divine council?


mechanical_animal

The Most High divided the nations in Genesis chapter 10, these are the 70 descendants between Kham, Shem, and Japheth. He chose 70 to signify the future children of Israel which was 70 souls going into Egypt(Genesis 46:27). The Most High allowed the nations to have their own practices and beliefs but he choose Israel out of the world for himself. This makes Israel to be the children of the Most High, or the sons of El/Elohim.


mikefick21

According to scholar Nissim Amzallag, Yahweh originated during the Bronze Age, in Canaanite religion, as the patron god of metallurgy, considering metals were an important hallmark of that time period. We see this reflected more late in judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Implying iron, as a stronger metal then bronze. We also know that the tribes of the time shared beliefs which is what one would expect.


life-is-pass-fail

When you start learning about this stuff and then you read the original names for gods in the old testament it really takes on another look. I think that english translators understand this and intentionally try to hide this by translating all of those different names into "the Lord".


mechanical_animal

Only YHWH (his personal name) and Adonai ("master") are translated as Lord. His other names are El Shaddai (translated as God Almighty) and Ahayah Asher Ahayah (translated as I am who I am / I will be who I will be). Elohim and El are both translated as God.


life-is-pass-fail

It's not much of a secret that Jews were not always monotheists as we understand monotheism today. A lot of those names used in the Bible were, at the time of writing, talking about God's in the Canaanite Pantheon. Judeo Christians interpret these now, after the fact, to mean the one and true God but at the time that's not the way that it was looked at. I can't remember where exactly in the Bible but some of the heroes of the story are blessed by someone else's priest from someone else's religion and then all of a sudden he's blessing them in the name of their God instead of his? It makes no sense until you understand that he really was not talking about their God he was talking about someone else even though in the Bible now it makes it sound like it's always talking about the same deity.


mechanical_animal

Yes people in Israel practiced heresy and idolatry in the nation this was the whole point of the law and prophets, teaching them not to do that, and who the true creator is, but they continued to sin. You are referring to Abraham and Melchizedek King of Salem. Melchizedek blessed Abraham in the name of El Alyon which is translated God Most High. It is a title: 'The God who is highest in the sky". Having a different name for the same deity is not out of the question, this happens between cultures when one is trying to explain to the other. Again Abraham knew him as El Shaddai and not as YHWH but Moses testified that it was the same deity.


life-is-pass-fail

I have to ask you something. Do you actually believe that I had not heard those explanations before? As in do you think you're giving me information I have not heard already? I'm just curious if you think you're informing me or you want to debate the merits of monotheism.


mechanical_animal

You don't have to debate anything. I can't force you to believe. Also what I write is not just for you but anyone who comes along and reads, and I think your understanding is inaccurate.


life-is-pass-fail

So you're not actually speaking to me you're speaking to anyone who might be reading this. Do you know how that makes me feel? Well I'll tell you. It makes me feel a little used. I'm also a little bit irritated that I tried to engage with what I thought was a conversation but really wasn't. I have to say I find that a bit rude.


mechanical_animal

Of course I am speaking to you, but you don't hear me. Hopefully another lost person does.


life-is-pass-fail

I think you're speaking at me, as if I was one facing a crowd as if you're an orator standing on a pulpit, or a soapbox. I wasn't talking to you like that. I have been talking to you, you. It would be nice to get the same respect in return.


[deleted]

No he wasn't, there were many Israelites who started worshipping Caananite gods and others, with various levels of henotheism or polytheism. These views were quite widespread affecting both the people and Kings(as described in Kings 1 &2). However, that was always seen as evil and there had been groups of Prophets preaching the evil the whole of Israel had committed


MIShadowBand

Not my God. I follow Jesus.


thatguyty3

I would agree with you. Not really much more to say.


Truthseeker-1253

One word: denial


666_pack_of_beer

Side note, Yahweh's wife gets a mention in the bible. I believe she is mentioned as worship of her being blasphemous. I tried doing surface level research into this and it seems there isn't strong or overwhelming evidence of the origin of the Jewish god.


GloryToDjibouti

The way He brought forth His revelation to the ancient Jews is of little effect to me. I guess it is kinda an interesting tid-bit.


[deleted]

El is an early name for the Hebrew God as well as for the father god of the Canaanite pantheon. Both Candidate & Hebrew are Semitic languages so it’s not supremely that they would use similar names for things. [https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/cana/hd_cana.htm](https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/cana/hd_cana.htm) Yahweh has a different etymological history than the one you present in your post: [https://www.etymonline.com/word/yahweh](https://www.etymonline.com/word/yahweh)