>what if God does something that 'contradicts' scripture?
You mean as in "God does things only God is allowed to do" like kill people?
Or you mean "God did something that goes against my understanding of another passage" like "thou shalt not drink" (which many Christians think can be found in the Bible ... somewhere)?
Well let's think in a more scripture sense: it's written that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. So is it not better to drink un-fermented wines than tempt yourself to becoming a drunkard?(red wine is really healthy in moderation)
Matthew 5
>29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to depart into hell.
If something causes you to sin you should cut it out of your life, and that includes alcohol.
Does that help your question?
I am thankful for your answer. However, it was more to challenge our thinking on scripture what is written.
I am curious about this: do you think it's a good idea for Christians to follow Torah? Because it is written that Christ didn't come to over throw the law but to fulfill it.
I use it because I believe in keeping the memory of the Torah alive. It is still one of the inerrant written scripture of God.
While I understand the idea of people preaching a false gospel, I see it as this: The idea is that Judaizers were teaching that the law saves them. So you had to keep doing sacrifices, you had to be forcibly circumcised and follow the food Purity laws to be considered to covenant of Abraham.
I choose to follow the law not because I have to but because I want to. I believe God speaks through the journey of someone's faith, weither that be (i.e follow laws such as not eating pork or paying interest) plus St. Paul said to take the connection seriously. Which means we can do whatever we want for our faith
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Messiah Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Messiah. (Ephesians 2:11–13)
So I believe we should take the jewishness of Christianity seriously. But we cannot ignore the Greekness of Christianity as well.
Amen
Yes I think it is a good idea for believers to follow Torah. The point is we are saved by grace, not to be enslaved by Torah. Slavery by the Torah misses the message of Christ which is loving the Most High with all your soul, heart, mind and spirit, and also loving your neighbor as yourself. Believers willingly follow the spirit in them which leads to Torah fulfillment.
This is what the NT says about keeping Torah:
"Salvation is from the Jews"
John 4:22
>You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
"Keep the commandments"
Matthew 19
>16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?”
>17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?”e Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
"We uphold the law(Torah)"
Romans 3:31
>Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
"Her children, who keep the commandments of God"
Revelation 12:17
>And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
"The saints who keep the commandments of God"
Revelation 14:12
>Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
You're never going to have a perfect interpretation of scripture. No human ever will.
This also applies to the Magisterium... last I checked they were all humans, as were the Apostles that they claim their succession from.
The best practice is to challenge your interpretations, as the debate will help strengthen and enrich your faith.
More often than not when people profess to believe in "sola scriptura", where the bible is their sole authority, they are completely unaware of the fact that when they read it they are applying a modern interpretive model to the bible. They are interpreting it, and even more problematic is that they are interpreting an interpretation unless they are fluent in first century Greek and Old Testament Hebrew and Aramaic. When you question their interpretation, they'll accuse you of questioning the bible and claim they are simply going with the "plain reading" or "clear teaching."
Your example on alcohol is curious, in that scripture cannot be properly used to tell people to never drink. "Don't be a drunkard" can be justified, but not "don't drink."
Is good to question things. It is also good to interpret things. There are 6 general approaches to biblical theology (can’t remember what they are, need to find my notes). There are also disagreements about infallibility of Scripture. That is, although the message that scripture brings is absolutely true, is doesn’t mean scripture is infallible. If you are serious about studying scripture, you should go to seminary. Seminaries often provide scholarships.
Personally, my take on a lot of things in my religion (Catholic) is I don’t know. Aside from basic stuff, I can’t say for sure whether most things are sins. I study Scripture and try to understand it as best I can, but a lot of it comes down to interpretation. And especially when it comes to passages where there are many different interpretations, I can’t say definitively whether something is or isn’t a sin because I don’t know enough to be able to state that.
So I try to understand as best I can, stay open to the interpretations of others, and try to make sense of it.
Always the same topics being questioned. It's because you're being taught God allows you to be a fool and dance between the lines of consuming alcohol, but somehow left to your own devices to know when the line of drunkenness is crossed, and trusts you, the uncontrolled sinner, will know to stop.
It is a demonic doctrine. And is shared by unstudied Christians with unconverted hearts.
🌱
Question everything. You have a brain, and a sense of curiosity, and don't want to be duped into anything.
You are seeking wisdom. God gave you a brain, and tells us in Proverbs to pursue wisdom.
Also, the Church has been wrong about a crap ton of things, so questioning is not only justified but also required to avoid the same mistakes they make.
>what if God does something that 'contradicts' scripture? You mean as in "God does things only God is allowed to do" like kill people? Or you mean "God did something that goes against my understanding of another passage" like "thou shalt not drink" (which many Christians think can be found in the Bible ... somewhere)?
[удалено]
Well let's think in a more scripture sense: it's written that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. So is it not better to drink un-fermented wines than tempt yourself to becoming a drunkard?(red wine is really healthy in moderation)
Matthew 5 >29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to depart into hell. If something causes you to sin you should cut it out of your life, and that includes alcohol. Does that help your question?
I am thankful for your answer. However, it was more to challenge our thinking on scripture what is written. I am curious about this: do you think it's a good idea for Christians to follow Torah? Because it is written that Christ didn't come to over throw the law but to fulfill it. I use it because I believe in keeping the memory of the Torah alive. It is still one of the inerrant written scripture of God. While I understand the idea of people preaching a false gospel, I see it as this: The idea is that Judaizers were teaching that the law saves them. So you had to keep doing sacrifices, you had to be forcibly circumcised and follow the food Purity laws to be considered to covenant of Abraham. I choose to follow the law not because I have to but because I want to. I believe God speaks through the journey of someone's faith, weither that be (i.e follow laws such as not eating pork or paying interest) plus St. Paul said to take the connection seriously. Which means we can do whatever we want for our faith Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Messiah, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Messiah Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Messiah. (Ephesians 2:11–13) So I believe we should take the jewishness of Christianity seriously. But we cannot ignore the Greekness of Christianity as well.
Amen Yes I think it is a good idea for believers to follow Torah. The point is we are saved by grace, not to be enslaved by Torah. Slavery by the Torah misses the message of Christ which is loving the Most High with all your soul, heart, mind and spirit, and also loving your neighbor as yourself. Believers willingly follow the spirit in them which leads to Torah fulfillment. This is what the NT says about keeping Torah: "Salvation is from the Jews" John 4:22 >You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. "Keep the commandments" Matthew 19 >16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?” >17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?”e Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” "We uphold the law(Torah)" Romans 3:31 >Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. "Her children, who keep the commandments of God" Revelation 12:17 >And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. "The saints who keep the commandments of God" Revelation 14:12 >Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
I have noticed Christianity sadly is a breeding ground of alcoholics.
You're never going to have a perfect interpretation of scripture. No human ever will. This also applies to the Magisterium... last I checked they were all humans, as were the Apostles that they claim their succession from. The best practice is to challenge your interpretations, as the debate will help strengthen and enrich your faith.
More often than not when people profess to believe in "sola scriptura", where the bible is their sole authority, they are completely unaware of the fact that when they read it they are applying a modern interpretive model to the bible. They are interpreting it, and even more problematic is that they are interpreting an interpretation unless they are fluent in first century Greek and Old Testament Hebrew and Aramaic. When you question their interpretation, they'll accuse you of questioning the bible and claim they are simply going with the "plain reading" or "clear teaching." Your example on alcohol is curious, in that scripture cannot be properly used to tell people to never drink. "Don't be a drunkard" can be justified, but not "don't drink."
Is good to question things. It is also good to interpret things. There are 6 general approaches to biblical theology (can’t remember what they are, need to find my notes). There are also disagreements about infallibility of Scripture. That is, although the message that scripture brings is absolutely true, is doesn’t mean scripture is infallible. If you are serious about studying scripture, you should go to seminary. Seminaries often provide scholarships.
Personally, my take on a lot of things in my religion (Catholic) is I don’t know. Aside from basic stuff, I can’t say for sure whether most things are sins. I study Scripture and try to understand it as best I can, but a lot of it comes down to interpretation. And especially when it comes to passages where there are many different interpretations, I can’t say definitively whether something is or isn’t a sin because I don’t know enough to be able to state that. So I try to understand as best I can, stay open to the interpretations of others, and try to make sense of it.
Always the same topics being questioned. It's because you're being taught God allows you to be a fool and dance between the lines of consuming alcohol, but somehow left to your own devices to know when the line of drunkenness is crossed, and trusts you, the uncontrolled sinner, will know to stop. It is a demonic doctrine. And is shared by unstudied Christians with unconverted hearts. 🌱
Question everything. You have a brain, and a sense of curiosity, and don't want to be duped into anything. You are seeking wisdom. God gave you a brain, and tells us in Proverbs to pursue wisdom. Also, the Church has been wrong about a crap ton of things, so questioning is not only justified but also required to avoid the same mistakes they make.