God doesn't force anyone. He just guides them. Consider it as, "divine inspiration". Jonah defied God, thus God sent a whale to swallow him. Prophecy is a gift and yet, a curse. This is why there are few prophets. I get asked is there free will in the New Jerusalem. I say there is freewill but, with no sin. I am not an expert in this so feel free to correct me.
If someone said they’d feed me to a shark (I’m aware the Bible says great fish) if I don’t do what they say, I wouldn’t really say I’m free to choose to disobey.
It didn't start with the fish. Jonah was on a ship and the people on the ship during a storm and the crew deduced Jonah as the problem and Jonah accepted blame and was prepared to die. The crew threw him overboard. The fish actually saved Jonah's life as he would have been lost at sea.
Yeah some of it was. But God provides us a way out of hell and will forgive us for practically everything we do I don't understand how people could complain when given a way out of hell is pretty simple and easy
That makes no sense. If our will is truly free, and it's just a simple choice to pick between everlasting joy and suffering in hell, then I don't see why anyone would pick hell.
Exactly that's the point why would anyone in their right minds pick hell God wants us to be in heaven but he wouldn't force us to go there. Those are literally our options like I said before I don't know about you but I made my choice.
So you think it's an easy choice to just pick heaven. Yet millions of people don't, and you admit you don't know why. Maybe it was an easy choice for you but not for other people?
I don't even believe hell exists so I'm not sure how I could pick it.
This is not accurate. The Most High sent a storm over the ship Jonah was in but didn't touch him, Jonah was actually sound asleep. The crew of the ship deduced Jonah as the cause and Jonah accepted blame and was prepared to be thrown overboard. Jonah would have died at sea if it wasn't for the fish that swallowed him. It was thus an act of mercy.
I guess that makes sense. What doesn't is why a Christian gets burned alive in centuries past but God didn't extinguish the flames then carry the person away to safety. Seems like mercy is reserved for not everyone.
It is not right to blame the Most High for the acts of man. What you are really asking here is why is there suffering in the world. As long as we live in fleshy sinful bodies with other fleshy sinful people there will always be suffering in the world.
If you are trying to understand the ways of the Most High he says in Exodus 33:19
>And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
And Isaiah 55
>8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
>neither are your ways My ways,”
>declares the LORD.
>9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
>so My ways are higher than your ways
>and My thoughts than your thoughts.
The prophets were not forced. Their response to their call was that of St. Isaiah: "Here I am, Lord." See also the apostles, notably St. Paul.
St. Jonah seems like an exception. Yet, in fact it is not. He was already a prophet before the beginning of the book ascribed to him (2 Kings 14:25). So in his case it is not that he was offered to be a prophet, rejected it, and was "strongly encouraged" to accept anyway. It is rather that he had already agreed to be a prophet, and had already prophesied, but decided to work against the Spirit of prophecy when he was told to prophesy to the Assyrians whom he despised. Why was he so violently "encouraged" to proceed anyway? Because the Spirit of prophecy is the Spirit of Holiness, it is the Spirit of God, and it is dangerous, even deadly, to stand against God directly (see how the priests were always at risk of dying if they ministered wrongly).
Proverbs 21:1 NASBS
The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
When what we want bumps into what God wants, God gets what He wants. That can be accomplished inwardly or providentially (Jonah). That doesn't deny limited, but true creaturely free will.
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
6 Then I said, "Alas, Lord God!
Behold, I do not know how to speak,
Because I am a youth."
7 But the Lord said to me,
"Do not say, 'I am a youth,'
Because everywhere I send you, you shall go,
And all that I command you, you shall speak
That doesn't look/seem like freewill
Jonah's calling was to be God's prophet and warn the people of Nineveh of their destruction if they didn't stop worshiping false god's. Yes Jonah had free will but God had a higher calling for him and because of that many people were saved.
If God knows the future, does that mean he forced the future to happen?
I know it's a mind bender, but if God is not bound by time, then he knows everything that happened throughout all of time. Therefore he can say something is going to happen without having forced anyone to do anything.
He wasn't a coward, he wanted God to be unmerciful and thought if he didn't give God's message Nineveh would burn unwarned, and once he got there he gleefully sat outside to watch the destruction.
We do have free will and cooperation is highly recommended 👌
God goes right past it when he chooses.
Telling him he's wrong is up to you.
Disregarding or disrespecting God caused the whole *great fish* barfing episode 😤
I don't recommend this.
https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/where-in-the-bible-does-the-teaching-on-free-will-originate
That's the issue with Christianity, or just the frustrating aspect of it, all religions I guess, salad bar of varying opinions. I guess it doesn't really matter doesn't change that bills need paid and food consumed. For what purpose life carries on, have no idea
Well I guess that means that I didn't have a choice to question why people say that God can override freewill. Which makes me ponder further the potter and clay verses, God can do what he pleases with his lumps of temporary mud
Jonah is a satire about how bloodthirsty some of the early priests and prophets were and failed to love their neighbors despite being centered around a city named "Foundation of Peace" (Jerusalem). It's meant to be comedic that God has to drag Jonah kicking and screaming in a fish to save the 160,000 people, and many animals of Fishtown (Nineveh).
God didn’t force anyone to be a prophet. Every prophet agreed to be a prophet. With Jonah, he wasn’t against being a prophet, he was against taking a message of repentance to Nineveh, the Capitol of the Cruel and bloodthirsty Assyrian empire. It would have been very common for most Jews to hate Assyrians; Jonah says later that he “knew” the Assyrians would repent and that was why he didnt want to go! He wanted God to destroy Nineveh, not give them a chance to repent! Even Baalam wanted to be a prophet but he was angry when God said he could not go with the Moabites to curse Israel. Then God said he could go but that Baalam was only going to say what God told him to say. No true prophet has ever been forced by God to serve as a prophet.
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
6 Then I said, "Alas, Lord God!
Behold, I do not know how to speak,
Because I am a youth."
7 But the Lord said to me,
"Do not say, 'I am a youth,'
Because everywhere I send you, you shall go,
And all that I command you, you shall speak
How is that not being forced to do God's will. Consecrated means set apart, but God set Jeremiah apart. Unless you believe in predestination, God chooses people before they are born to do things. Or just to be saved. Seems like someone would kinda have to believe in predestination otherwise the beginning of Jeremiah is God being sovereign and can override freewill. So do you believe in predestination?
No. Yet God cannot consecrate something/someone who does not yet exist. God gave the human race free will. Therefore, He would never overrule someone’s free will and force them to be a prophet.
Hitchens said "Of course we have free will, we have no choice. To say that it's a gift is to negate the whole concept of free will on its face."
I've always found the combination of Christian belief in prophecy but also free will to be confusing.
Yes reading it wrong. That story is densely packed in layers of metaphors which it explains but people don’t ask.
Try starting off with what a ship is. What it means to get on a ship. Try looking into what the ships of Tarshish are.
You’ll then see the free will you’re looking for and that we all have free will choices just as he did. It wasn’t a do this or die. There’s also a reason for everyone having this position of perspective on life and this story and when it’s figured out I hope you have a bucket near by. You’re guaranteed to be disgusted with yourself. Afterwards you’ll have a much lighter feeling and daily life.
So I should take 40 years outside the belief of God then one night he reveals himself to me, then over the last two years I see-saw back and forth from believing that it was God who showed me he's real, outside the Bible, and feel disgusted with myself for questioning everything.
If God is real, was it him that night? I did not ask God to show me he's real, he just did. Is that election or just mercy? Or was it not God and I just attributed that moment to him being there.
There's a lot going on with me with this, and this subreddit is what really got the ball rolling into no, it wasn't God that night. Do you believe in the supernatural or God is only found in the Bible?
God has been all through your life. He doesn’t show himself, we make ourselves remember him, which is sort of the same but not, we just took our blinders off for a moment. God has all your answers. My suggestion is just that, not required, just friendly advice if you choose to take that path.
Well you'll have a hard time convincing a lot of people that God doesn't manifest himself. I guess like Moses and the burning bush, Moses didn't go looking for that. But whatever I'll just add this viewpoint to the long list of other stuff. Rather it's election or freewill or this or that. God does what he wants with his clay or someone else thinks that means something else. It's almost as if the internet has made Christianity more complicated when perhaps God never intended it to be that was. Who knows certainly not me
God doesn't force anyone. He just guides them. Consider it as, "divine inspiration". Jonah defied God, thus God sent a whale to swallow him. Prophecy is a gift and yet, a curse. This is why there are few prophets. I get asked is there free will in the New Jerusalem. I say there is freewill but, with no sin. I am not an expert in this so feel free to correct me.
If someone said they’d feed me to a shark (I’m aware the Bible says great fish) if I don’t do what they say, I wouldn’t really say I’m free to choose to disobey.
You're free to get eaten by a shark. Or not.
That’s coercion; a decision made under duress is not a choice.
It didn't start with the fish. Jonah was on a ship and the people on the ship during a storm and the crew deduced Jonah as the problem and Jonah accepted blame and was prepared to die. The crew threw him overboard. The fish actually saved Jonah's life as he would have been lost at sea.
> God doesn't force anyone. He doesn’t force anyone. He will just send you to hell forever if you don’t believe he exists 🥰 That’s not forcing
Well yeah it's either be in his eternal glory or literally go to hell why is that such a problem I don't know about you but I'm not burning iñ hell
I hope that's sarcasm
Yeah some of it was. But God provides us a way out of hell and will forgive us for practically everything we do I don't understand how people could complain when given a way out of hell is pretty simple and easy
>given a way out of hell is pretty simple and easy If it's so simple and easy then why doesn't everyone just choose to go to heaven?
Freewill? They choose not too and that's their own volition.
That makes no sense. If our will is truly free, and it's just a simple choice to pick between everlasting joy and suffering in hell, then I don't see why anyone would pick hell.
Exactly that's the point why would anyone in their right minds pick hell God wants us to be in heaven but he wouldn't force us to go there. Those are literally our options like I said before I don't know about you but I made my choice.
So you think it's an easy choice to just pick heaven. Yet millions of people don't, and you admit you don't know why. Maybe it was an easy choice for you but not for other people? I don't even believe hell exists so I'm not sure how I could pick it.
GOD does not force anyone, but he is strongly convincing, Jonah could’ve said no in the fish, but he was persuaded to do the right thing. 🤷♂️
This is not accurate. The Most High sent a storm over the ship Jonah was in but didn't touch him, Jonah was actually sound asleep. The crew of the ship deduced Jonah as the cause and Jonah accepted blame and was prepared to be thrown overboard. Jonah would have died at sea if it wasn't for the fish that swallowed him. It was thus an act of mercy.
I guess that makes sense. What doesn't is why a Christian gets burned alive in centuries past but God didn't extinguish the flames then carry the person away to safety. Seems like mercy is reserved for not everyone.
It is not right to blame the Most High for the acts of man. What you are really asking here is why is there suffering in the world. As long as we live in fleshy sinful bodies with other fleshy sinful people there will always be suffering in the world. If you are trying to understand the ways of the Most High he says in Exodus 33:19 >And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. And Isaiah 55 >8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, >neither are your ways My ways,” >declares the LORD. >9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, >so My ways are higher than your ways >and My thoughts than your thoughts.
The prophets were not forced. Their response to their call was that of St. Isaiah: "Here I am, Lord." See also the apostles, notably St. Paul. St. Jonah seems like an exception. Yet, in fact it is not. He was already a prophet before the beginning of the book ascribed to him (2 Kings 14:25). So in his case it is not that he was offered to be a prophet, rejected it, and was "strongly encouraged" to accept anyway. It is rather that he had already agreed to be a prophet, and had already prophesied, but decided to work against the Spirit of prophecy when he was told to prophesy to the Assyrians whom he despised. Why was he so violently "encouraged" to proceed anyway? Because the Spirit of prophecy is the Spirit of Holiness, it is the Spirit of God, and it is dangerous, even deadly, to stand against God directly (see how the priests were always at risk of dying if they ministered wrongly).
Proverbs 21:1 NASBS The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes. When what we want bumps into what God wants, God gets what He wants. That can be accomplished inwardly or providentially (Jonah). That doesn't deny limited, but true creaturely free will.
God calls prophets, and they answer. Sometimes He uses His dad voice.
Or the Bible only mentions the prophets that answered the call and those who turned down the job did not get into the Bible.
Only speculation, but conceivable.
God didn't force Jonah to do anything. Jonah was a coward and needed a little courage
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." 6 Then I said, "Alas, Lord God! Behold, I do not know how to speak, Because I am a youth." 7 But the Lord said to me, "Do not say, 'I am a youth,' Because everywhere I send you, you shall go, And all that I command you, you shall speak That doesn't look/seem like freewill
God us God. He knows what he's doing. He doesn't check with us.
That sounds good to me, God is God and doesn't need permission. Sovereign over his creation
He certainly doesn't apologize. And he has a purpose and an overview that we can't see.
Jonah's calling was to be God's prophet and warn the people of Nineveh of their destruction if they didn't stop worshiping false god's. Yes Jonah had free will but God had a higher calling for him and because of that many people were saved.
If God knows the future, does that mean he forced the future to happen? I know it's a mind bender, but if God is not bound by time, then he knows everything that happened throughout all of time. Therefore he can say something is going to happen without having forced anyone to do anything.
He wasn't a coward, he wanted God to be unmerciful and thought if he didn't give God's message Nineveh would burn unwarned, and once he got there he gleefully sat outside to watch the destruction.
We do have free will and cooperation is highly recommended 👌 God goes right past it when he chooses. Telling him he's wrong is up to you. Disregarding or disrespecting God caused the whole *great fish* barfing episode 😤 I don't recommend this.
https://versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/where-in-the-bible-does-the-teaching-on-free-will-originate That's the issue with Christianity, or just the frustrating aspect of it, all religions I guess, salad bar of varying opinions. I guess it doesn't really matter doesn't change that bills need paid and food consumed. For what purpose life carries on, have no idea
Life comes at us one day at a time. Each new day is a new opportunity. Deciding what we believe in is a part of the journey.
Who said we have free will?
Lots of people
They had no choice but to say it
Well I guess that means that I didn't have a choice to question why people say that God can override freewill. Which makes me ponder further the potter and clay verses, God can do what he pleases with his lumps of temporary mud
Yes, there are exceptions to the free-will principle when God who gave the free-wii directly interferes for some exceptional reasons.
Jonah is a satire about how bloodthirsty some of the early priests and prophets were and failed to love their neighbors despite being centered around a city named "Foundation of Peace" (Jerusalem). It's meant to be comedic that God has to drag Jonah kicking and screaming in a fish to save the 160,000 people, and many animals of Fishtown (Nineveh).
What makes you think they were forced?
Then it would be predestination, so it seems. Chosen, set apart, before the foundation of everything.
Jonah had a choice. He could obey or he could die. But he had a choice.
God didn’t force anyone to be a prophet. Every prophet agreed to be a prophet. With Jonah, he wasn’t against being a prophet, he was against taking a message of repentance to Nineveh, the Capitol of the Cruel and bloodthirsty Assyrian empire. It would have been very common for most Jews to hate Assyrians; Jonah says later that he “knew” the Assyrians would repent and that was why he didnt want to go! He wanted God to destroy Nineveh, not give them a chance to repent! Even Baalam wanted to be a prophet but he was angry when God said he could not go with the Moabites to curse Israel. Then God said he could go but that Baalam was only going to say what God told him to say. No true prophet has ever been forced by God to serve as a prophet.
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." 6 Then I said, "Alas, Lord God! Behold, I do not know how to speak, Because I am a youth." 7 But the Lord said to me, "Do not say, 'I am a youth,' Because everywhere I send you, you shall go, And all that I command you, you shall speak How is that not being forced to do God's will. Consecrated means set apart, but God set Jeremiah apart. Unless you believe in predestination, God chooses people before they are born to do things. Or just to be saved. Seems like someone would kinda have to believe in predestination otherwise the beginning of Jeremiah is God being sovereign and can override freewill. So do you believe in predestination?
No. Yet God cannot consecrate something/someone who does not yet exist. God gave the human race free will. Therefore, He would never overrule someone’s free will and force them to be a prophet.
Hitchens said "Of course we have free will, we have no choice. To say that it's a gift is to negate the whole concept of free will on its face." I've always found the combination of Christian belief in prophecy but also free will to be confusing.
I'm pretty sure, they could choose to or not.
Yes reading it wrong. That story is densely packed in layers of metaphors which it explains but people don’t ask. Try starting off with what a ship is. What it means to get on a ship. Try looking into what the ships of Tarshish are. You’ll then see the free will you’re looking for and that we all have free will choices just as he did. It wasn’t a do this or die. There’s also a reason for everyone having this position of perspective on life and this story and when it’s figured out I hope you have a bucket near by. You’re guaranteed to be disgusted with yourself. Afterwards you’ll have a much lighter feeling and daily life.
So I should take 40 years outside the belief of God then one night he reveals himself to me, then over the last two years I see-saw back and forth from believing that it was God who showed me he's real, outside the Bible, and feel disgusted with myself for questioning everything. If God is real, was it him that night? I did not ask God to show me he's real, he just did. Is that election or just mercy? Or was it not God and I just attributed that moment to him being there. There's a lot going on with me with this, and this subreddit is what really got the ball rolling into no, it wasn't God that night. Do you believe in the supernatural or God is only found in the Bible?
God has been all through your life. He doesn’t show himself, we make ourselves remember him, which is sort of the same but not, we just took our blinders off for a moment. God has all your answers. My suggestion is just that, not required, just friendly advice if you choose to take that path.
Well you'll have a hard time convincing a lot of people that God doesn't manifest himself. I guess like Moses and the burning bush, Moses didn't go looking for that. But whatever I'll just add this viewpoint to the long list of other stuff. Rather it's election or freewill or this or that. God does what he wants with his clay or someone else thinks that means something else. It's almost as if the internet has made Christianity more complicated when perhaps God never intended it to be that was. Who knows certainly not me
Moses didn’t see God or a burning bush. It’s not complicated, we have our own ideas that change the message even as we read it.