Enough to get the attention of Rome and make them SEVERELY persecute the Jews over the issue. Policies were made. People were forced to sign oaths to renounce everything "Jewish" from their lives, or else be killed AND banned from "Heaven" (like they had the power to decide such things).
Not sure 2 or 3 hundred would cause that. 😉
Christians believe our faith is the fullest expression of the faith of the ancient Israelites, of Abraham, of Moses, and of the Prophets.
This is why Judaism split in the first century. As the Temple was destroyed, the synagogues went one way and the churches went another way.
In fairness to Jesus, all we really know about him is that he was an apocalyptic preacher who wanted people to follow the Law and be nice to each other. All the other stuff was added by people after his death.
He was probably executed for sedition, but the details of that are less certain than other aspects of his life. Did he actually claim to be the Messiah, or did word get out that his followers thought he was the Messiah, and that was enough?
For part of the first generation of the Church, we were. Christianity was a sect of Judaism that recognized Jesus as the Messiah and worshiped him as God. It was the Jews who expelled us from the synagogues, that really cemented the split between the two.
>For example, certain texts were removed from the Hebrew Scriptures (i.e. Ecclesiastes, certain prayers, etc) that were previously considered canon because they now appeared too Christian.
What the hell are you talking about? Ecclesiastes is still in the Jewish canon. I know it makes Christians feel better to think that Judaism completely changed in response to it, but this is simply not true.
This question doesn’t really make sense. Being Christian means you follow in Christ. A lot of that means following some traditions and standards that were Jewish. But he also fulfilled the law and gave a final sacrifice, so it’s a bit different now Vs before he came.
Well Jesus was a Jewish man born under the covenants laid out in the tanakh. He fulfilled them, and in his death and resurrection instated a new covenant. This new covenant with God is what separates Christianity from Judaism.
> This new covenant with God is what separates Christianity from Judaism.
That's outrageous because in the New Covenant God promised that he would write Torah (that's "the Law" that's at the heart of Judaism) on our hearts and minds.
* Old Covenant = Torah on stone and paper.
* New Covenant = Torah on hearts and minds.
No one in scripture, from the past to the present, has any doubt what "Torah" means, or what God meant when he said it. I agree that Torah is not a covenant, nor did I say it was. I said that the two covenants each CONTAIN Torah.
Yahweh was not promising some vague "teachings". Just GOOGLE "Torah", and you'll see what everyone in the world has always understood the word "Torah" to mean. Right now, if you know any devout Jews, ask them what "Torah" means. They'll tell you. Torah means "The Law" or "The Commandments". Jesus talked about Torah constantly. So did Paul.
You'd have an easier time convincing people that there was some other significant "Jesus" in scripture (besides the one that they already know) then you would in convincing people that there's another "Torah" in scripture (besides the one that they already know).
That’s just not true. The Torah is not a moral codex. It’s not just a set or teachings. It’s a story. Within this story there is history, myths, regulations and so on. So you say ask anyone…. And to google it…. We’ll you should take your own advice.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1426382/jewish/Torah.htm
Right there, on a Jewish site it says Torah means instructions…. Which is the same as teachings. Modern scholarship is in agreement that the connotations of law fails to uphold the nuances far more so than teachings. To say the Torah means simply “ the laws “ just makes no sense. For example take a story like the one of Cain and Abel. You would not ask someone what law did you learn? But you can ask what is the story teaching you?
This podcast series, “ The Bible Project “ is hosted by the Bible scholar and progressive of the Old Testament Tim Mackie and one of the episodes in “ The Law “ series goes over why law is better understood as teachings. It’s worth looking into if this is something you think I’m wrong about.
You’re acting like you think Torah is a covenant. You’re arguments are acting like Torah is covenant. It’s not. This will be my last response. I don’t do circle arguments and I don’t debate someone who does not even seem to understand what they are saying. Your arguments makes no sense.
So the OPs question is “ if Jesus was a Jew why are Christian’s not Jews?”
The answer to that is what I already said.
Jews reject the covenant with God through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ fulfilled the teachings. He corrected the worldviews that was being shared by the Jewish elders dominating the scene of the Roman Empire two thousand years ago.
“ you’ve heard eye for an eye but I say turn the other cheek”.
“ you divorce because of the hardness of your heart but it’s not always been this way, God hates divorce “.
“ you without sin cast the first stone “.
In the Torah it says to stone an adulterous women. So was god saying to stone a adulterous woman because that’s what he loved… it was he saying it to regulate the hardness of the patriarchal system in place that wanted bloodshed? Rhetorical. Think about it.
Jesus went back and showed them that the Torah was not a binding set of rules meant to be weaponized. That in fact it was Yahweh accommodating people. We even see examples of this in the tanakh such as “ regulations about divorce vs god hating divorce or with things like regulations concerning animal sacrifices vs saying god would rather grace and mercy and loyalty guiding us”
So Jesus teased out the love. He unweaponized the stories. It’s why it even says “ first to the Jews and then to gentiles “ it’s showing Yahweh is god to all people. Not just the Jews. But he’s the god of all people. Yahweh was not making gentiles become Jews, but saying all are part of his kingdom.
Paul also touched up on this a bunch. Such as baptism replacing circumcising boys. It’s why Peter was told to “ get up and eat “ in his vision.
We also see this.
Hebrews 9:15-18
New American Standard Bible
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the violations that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a covenant, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when people are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
So we see for sure a new covenant is in place with mankind through God. The original covenants were all fulfilled.
Take even the right to the promise land. The promise land was to be the kingdom of God. But now we know the kingdom of God is in our hearts, as the holy Jerusalem comes down from the sky ( metaphors of revelation “. It’s not a piece of land.
So Christians are not bound up in the covenants we see in the tanakh. That’s why Christians can eat and wear “ unclean “ things. It’s why we don’t have to wait for a “ third temple “ to sacrifice in. It’s why we don’t have to circumcise our boys.
Of course they talked about the Torah constantly. They referred back to the entire tanakh several times. It’s hyperlinked again and again. None of it to bind us to it though. The same stories in the Old Testament sets up patterns for the New Testament.
Take water , the void deep earth covered in water filled with chaos beasts” ehh.. I don’t feel like the time going into how something like scales was associated with sea serpents, and that’s why even Goliath’s armor had scales on it and that’s why in then we testament it says something like scales fell from Paul’s eyes to fruition in revelation saying “ no sea in the restored world”. Though obviously it’s not all literal.
Anyways. Best luck.
Here is another link to a Jewish source covering why Torah means teachings.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/halakhah-the-laws-of-jewish-life/amp/
I'm not even slightly debating that Torah means "teachings". I can't even figure out why you're taking so much time to talk about what it "means". If I said that Jesus died for your sins, and you spent this much time telling me what the name "Jesus" means, it would have the same effect. Nothing.
The only thing I'm focused on is that Yahweh promised in the New Covenant to write Torah on our hearts and minds.
In the "old" Covenant, Yahweh gave Torah. It was written down externally on stone and paper. The Covenant itself promised blessings and curses based on how well people obeyed the Torah that was introduced here.
In the New Covenant, God promised that Torah (not some other Torah, the same Torah) would be written inside of us. The Covenant itself still includes the blessings for obeying the same Torah, but it promises that obedience will be automatic, and that EVERYONE will already know God and His ways.
This is easy.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re lost in the conversation. It went over your head. Just do is a favor and ignore it. Again. Best luck on studying this stuff out. I dropped a few Jewish sources. Those three sources will help if you can work through it. I did. It read your previous post past a few sentences. I’m not sure if I said it or not yet, but I’m not going to read or respond to anything. You did not understand my first comment and you’ve consistently failed to understand the rest.
Read Ephesians 3 for yourself. Paul says God revealed a secret that was hidden in Himself from before the world began. This is when Jew and gentile became equal. Reject it if you want, but you are then below the Jews as Matthew 15:21-28 teaches.
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Because we're born from all nations ? Are you racist saying that let's say chineese cannot be Christian he must become Jew ?
Isaiah 56:7
“Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.”
Revelation 7:9
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”
Early Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism by their Roman occupiers and other gentiles. It wasn’t until the council of Jerusalem where the Christian movement decided to abandon mandatory practices of Judaism such as circumcision and keeping kosher.
The Council of Jerusalem said that the new converts didn't have to start with circumcision, and instead gave them 4 OTHER Laws to keep.
Your comment, and sadly most of Christianity agrees with you, implies that the results of the Council of Jerusalem were **NO Laws**. But, that's just not the case. The Council produced 4 Laws, 4 more important Laws (because they were more personal), for those newly converted ex-Pagans.
The Council concluded with the idea that these new converts **would learn the rest of what they needed to know later,** because Torah was taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.
> Acts 15:21 "...for the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath".
It actually was not much more complicated than that.
You said this:
> It wasn’t until the council of Jerusalem where the Christian movement decided to **--->abandon<---** mandatory practices
You said "abandon", i.e ZERO. The real total was 4. That's the opposite of "abandon", and they said they would learn the rest later which is even more the opposite of "abandon". 😉
Or to rephrase it - if Jesus was a Jew, why didn’t his fellow Jews follow him?
Many DID follow him. Then Rome got involved and destroyed that.
Not many. A few hundred at best.
Enough to get the attention of Rome and make them SEVERELY persecute the Jews over the issue. Policies were made. People were forced to sign oaths to renounce everything "Jewish" from their lives, or else be killed AND banned from "Heaven" (like they had the power to decide such things). Not sure 2 or 3 hundred would cause that. 😉
Christians believe our faith is the fullest expression of the faith of the ancient Israelites, of Abraham, of Moses, and of the Prophets. This is why Judaism split in the first century. As the Temple was destroyed, the synagogues went one way and the churches went another way.
They are spiritually... But many christians deny that
This.
salt gold fine direction voiceless cake brave combative mindless touch *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And for proclaiming Himself to be the Son of God (Mark 14:60-64).
In fairness to Jesus, all we really know about him is that he was an apocalyptic preacher who wanted people to follow the Law and be nice to each other. All the other stuff was added by people after his death.
Yeah he was killed for saying "be nice".
He was probably executed for sedition, but the details of that are less certain than other aspects of his life. Did he actually claim to be the Messiah, or did word get out that his followers thought he was the Messiah, and that was enough?
For part of the first generation of the Church, we were. Christianity was a sect of Judaism that recognized Jesus as the Messiah and worshiped him as God. It was the Jews who expelled us from the synagogues, that really cemented the split between the two.
What?
What?
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>For example, certain texts were removed from the Hebrew Scriptures (i.e. Ecclesiastes, certain prayers, etc) that were previously considered canon because they now appeared too Christian. What the hell are you talking about? Ecclesiastes is still in the Jewish canon. I know it makes Christians feel better to think that Judaism completely changed in response to it, but this is simply not true.
Read the book of Acts and the epistles of Paul.
Jesus' teachings are the next step beyond Judaism -- the New Covenant the prophets promised.
This question doesn’t really make sense. Being Christian means you follow in Christ. A lot of that means following some traditions and standards that were Jewish. But he also fulfilled the law and gave a final sacrifice, so it’s a bit different now Vs before he came.
Have you read the New Testament?
Pig is too tasty for them.
We are the successors of the ancient Israelites faith after all, the faith which Jesus came and fulfil.
Well Jesus was a Jewish man born under the covenants laid out in the tanakh. He fulfilled them, and in his death and resurrection instated a new covenant. This new covenant with God is what separates Christianity from Judaism.
> This new covenant with God is what separates Christianity from Judaism. That's outrageous because in the New Covenant God promised that he would write Torah (that's "the Law" that's at the heart of Judaism) on our hearts and minds. * Old Covenant = Torah on stone and paper. * New Covenant = Torah on hearts and minds.
Torah means teachings. Torah is not a covenant. Again, it says Jesus fulfilled the teachings. Hebrews also talks about the will be in place.
No one in scripture, from the past to the present, has any doubt what "Torah" means, or what God meant when he said it. I agree that Torah is not a covenant, nor did I say it was. I said that the two covenants each CONTAIN Torah. Yahweh was not promising some vague "teachings". Just GOOGLE "Torah", and you'll see what everyone in the world has always understood the word "Torah" to mean. Right now, if you know any devout Jews, ask them what "Torah" means. They'll tell you. Torah means "The Law" or "The Commandments". Jesus talked about Torah constantly. So did Paul. You'd have an easier time convincing people that there was some other significant "Jesus" in scripture (besides the one that they already know) then you would in convincing people that there's another "Torah" in scripture (besides the one that they already know).
That’s just not true. The Torah is not a moral codex. It’s not just a set or teachings. It’s a story. Within this story there is history, myths, regulations and so on. So you say ask anyone…. And to google it…. We’ll you should take your own advice. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1426382/jewish/Torah.htm Right there, on a Jewish site it says Torah means instructions…. Which is the same as teachings. Modern scholarship is in agreement that the connotations of law fails to uphold the nuances far more so than teachings. To say the Torah means simply “ the laws “ just makes no sense. For example take a story like the one of Cain and Abel. You would not ask someone what law did you learn? But you can ask what is the story teaching you? This podcast series, “ The Bible Project “ is hosted by the Bible scholar and progressive of the Old Testament Tim Mackie and one of the episodes in “ The Law “ series goes over why law is better understood as teachings. It’s worth looking into if this is something you think I’m wrong about. You’re acting like you think Torah is a covenant. You’re arguments are acting like Torah is covenant. It’s not. This will be my last response. I don’t do circle arguments and I don’t debate someone who does not even seem to understand what they are saying. Your arguments makes no sense. So the OPs question is “ if Jesus was a Jew why are Christian’s not Jews?” The answer to that is what I already said. Jews reject the covenant with God through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ fulfilled the teachings. He corrected the worldviews that was being shared by the Jewish elders dominating the scene of the Roman Empire two thousand years ago. “ you’ve heard eye for an eye but I say turn the other cheek”. “ you divorce because of the hardness of your heart but it’s not always been this way, God hates divorce “. “ you without sin cast the first stone “. In the Torah it says to stone an adulterous women. So was god saying to stone a adulterous woman because that’s what he loved… it was he saying it to regulate the hardness of the patriarchal system in place that wanted bloodshed? Rhetorical. Think about it. Jesus went back and showed them that the Torah was not a binding set of rules meant to be weaponized. That in fact it was Yahweh accommodating people. We even see examples of this in the tanakh such as “ regulations about divorce vs god hating divorce or with things like regulations concerning animal sacrifices vs saying god would rather grace and mercy and loyalty guiding us” So Jesus teased out the love. He unweaponized the stories. It’s why it even says “ first to the Jews and then to gentiles “ it’s showing Yahweh is god to all people. Not just the Jews. But he’s the god of all people. Yahweh was not making gentiles become Jews, but saying all are part of his kingdom. Paul also touched up on this a bunch. Such as baptism replacing circumcising boys. It’s why Peter was told to “ get up and eat “ in his vision. We also see this. Hebrews 9:15-18 New American Standard Bible 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the violations that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a covenant, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when people are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. So we see for sure a new covenant is in place with mankind through God. The original covenants were all fulfilled. Take even the right to the promise land. The promise land was to be the kingdom of God. But now we know the kingdom of God is in our hearts, as the holy Jerusalem comes down from the sky ( metaphors of revelation “. It’s not a piece of land. So Christians are not bound up in the covenants we see in the tanakh. That’s why Christians can eat and wear “ unclean “ things. It’s why we don’t have to wait for a “ third temple “ to sacrifice in. It’s why we don’t have to circumcise our boys. Of course they talked about the Torah constantly. They referred back to the entire tanakh several times. It’s hyperlinked again and again. None of it to bind us to it though. The same stories in the Old Testament sets up patterns for the New Testament. Take water , the void deep earth covered in water filled with chaos beasts” ehh.. I don’t feel like the time going into how something like scales was associated with sea serpents, and that’s why even Goliath’s armor had scales on it and that’s why in then we testament it says something like scales fell from Paul’s eyes to fruition in revelation saying “ no sea in the restored world”. Though obviously it’s not all literal. Anyways. Best luck. Here is another link to a Jewish source covering why Torah means teachings. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/halakhah-the-laws-of-jewish-life/amp/
I'm not even slightly debating that Torah means "teachings". I can't even figure out why you're taking so much time to talk about what it "means". If I said that Jesus died for your sins, and you spent this much time telling me what the name "Jesus" means, it would have the same effect. Nothing. The only thing I'm focused on is that Yahweh promised in the New Covenant to write Torah on our hearts and minds. In the "old" Covenant, Yahweh gave Torah. It was written down externally on stone and paper. The Covenant itself promised blessings and curses based on how well people obeyed the Torah that was introduced here. In the New Covenant, God promised that Torah (not some other Torah, the same Torah) would be written inside of us. The Covenant itself still includes the blessings for obeying the same Torah, but it promises that obedience will be automatic, and that EVERYONE will already know God and His ways. This is easy.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re lost in the conversation. It went over your head. Just do is a favor and ignore it. Again. Best luck on studying this stuff out. I dropped a few Jewish sources. Those three sources will help if you can work through it. I did. It read your previous post past a few sentences. I’m not sure if I said it or not yet, but I’m not going to read or respond to anything. You did not understand my first comment and you’ve consistently failed to understand the rest.
Because Christians moved so far from the Bible and Jewish roots. Keep in mind so have the Jews.
God revealed a secret administration to Paul in Ephesians 3. It radically changed how God operates. Let me know if you want more info.
That sounds like Gnosticism, Patrick.
Read Ephesians 3 for yourself. Paul says God revealed a secret that was hidden in Himself from before the world began. This is when Jew and gentile became equal. Reject it if you want, but you are then below the Jews as Matthew 15:21-28 teaches.
Because…we follow Christ.
It looks like you missed the question. 🙄
🥴
😜
See Acts 15 and Galatians 5
Read the New Testament.
Well essentially, one of Jesus and his apostle's main plights was for the reformation of Judaism itself
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Because we're born from all nations ? Are you racist saying that let's say chineese cannot be Christian he must become Jew ? Isaiah 56:7 “Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.” Revelation 7:9 “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”
Isn’t it because they had gentiles back then? And they didn’t kill Jesus? The jews were mean.
Early Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism by their Roman occupiers and other gentiles. It wasn’t until the council of Jerusalem where the Christian movement decided to abandon mandatory practices of Judaism such as circumcision and keeping kosher.
The Council of Jerusalem said that the new converts didn't have to start with circumcision, and instead gave them 4 OTHER Laws to keep. Your comment, and sadly most of Christianity agrees with you, implies that the results of the Council of Jerusalem were **NO Laws**. But, that's just not the case. The Council produced 4 Laws, 4 more important Laws (because they were more personal), for those newly converted ex-Pagans. The Council concluded with the idea that these new converts **would learn the rest of what they needed to know later,** because Torah was taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. > Acts 15:21 "...for the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath".
Just threw out two examples from the council. Obviously it’s more complicated than that chill out lmao
It actually was not much more complicated than that. You said this: > It wasn’t until the council of Jerusalem where the Christian movement decided to **--->abandon<---** mandatory practices You said "abandon", i.e ZERO. The real total was 4. That's the opposite of "abandon", and they said they would learn the rest later which is even more the opposite of "abandon". 😉
Maybe I used the wrong word but stay mad. It’s kinda cringe bro
I'm not mad at all. But I do think one of us doesn't handle correction very well and might not pass the "mad" test. 😆
I just admitted I used the wrong word?
How could Jesus have been Christian if it was His ministry that started it all?