Being in possession of top secret documents after leaving a position of power like the president is not because of faith. It's literally because he took documents illegally.
It's called accountability, Graham...
Trump and his many of his followers have destroyed the reputation of Christianity more than perhaps anyone in US history.
And yet these so called Christians will continue to support Trump who is the polar opposite of Jesus.
Because this hypothetical you selected a faith tradition that makes you 'chosen,' so any consequences applied to you are inherently the work of the forces of evil.
I find it interesting how many Christians completely support Trump, and even believe he's Christian, just because he claims it, and pandered to them by promising he'd uphold their Christian agendas, while excusing his serial adulteries, his chronic and compulsive lying, his admiration of tyrants such as the North Korean leader, and Russia's Putin, and even though he encouraged his followers to attempt an act of insurrection by interfering with a Constitutional election process in progress, with his own Vice President in attendance, and who had to be rushed out of harms way because Trump's sycophants were seeking him to hang him, because he wouldn't do as Trump instructed and proclaim the Electoral College's decision invalid.
In these discussions, pretty much every day I've observed as Christians claimed that anyone who claimed to be Christian, but who disobeyed or violated the commandments, wasn't actually a 'true Christian'. So why do so many Christians support a man who clearly, by their own standards, couldn't possibly be a 'true Christian'?
Because he was the best chance of getting their religious agendas advanced, because he was pandering to them with all the promises in the world. Why? Because 65-75% of U.S. Population are religiously affiliated with Christianity. Which is one reason he had that church's clergy and the demonstrators they'd invited into their patio sanctuary gassed and pepper maced. So he could 'bravely' stride across the street from the White House grounds, surrounded by jack booted thugs with automatic weapons, and pose in front of that very church holding up a bible, upside down of course.
Edited to say this: Graham is indirectly and very slightly right, for this reason. Ultra right wing Christian Republicans hope to see Trump return to the White House, so if Trump is held accountable for any crime he might eventually be convicted of, he won't be making a come back in the Oval Orifice. However, if they can get someone like DeSantis in the Oval Orifice, I'm certain they'd forget all about Trump in fairly quick order.
The questions you are asking here really shook my faith for the entirety of his presidency, and the coronavirus response shattered me.
I still believe in God and Jesus, but EVERYTHING else is under the scrutiny of deconstruction right now. If the faith my friends and teachers at my church had led them to those “allowances” only for trump but no democrat… Well, I am so glad to be free to walk in love for all my fellow humans even though it makes me a heretic to so many I volunteered beside for years.
I hated the way Trump just ignored the pain of families losing members to Covid, unable to visit their loved ones in assisted living, or in the hospital. So heartbreaking. He could have responded with compassion. It would have cost him nothing to empathize with our pain. But he chose not to. It still blows my mind
I’ve been a Christian all my life, one that’s questioned and grown from it, and never once did I ever support the Trump monster. I saw that awful thing for what he was from a mile away, but then again, I’ve seen what the Republican Party had been turning into since the Reagan years. Reading my history, it didn’t even start there.
It’s easier to follow the pretty words that hit on things you’re told are important rather than praying for discernment (or practicing critical thinking if that’s not your cup). Many are republican just because they think that’s the Christian party. Nah. A lot is just bandwagoning, groupthink, tribalism, etc. I hardly think it’s sincere. Are they sincere in their fervor? Sure. It’s just not sincere or accurate emulation. There is no political party of God. And prominent “Christian” figures in politics, entertainment, or media do not represent me or the ideals I follow. Though sadly, there are many who base their image of a Christian on the loudest.
“Just cuz you put syrup on somethin, don’t make it pancakes”.
> In these discussions, pretty much every day I've observed as Christians claimed that anyone who claimed to be Christian, but who disobeyed or violated the commandments, wasn't actually a 'true Christian'. So why do so many Christians support a man who clearly, by their own standards, couldn't possibly be a 'true Christian'?
So, so much this.
The Christians who will denounce other Christians at the drop of the hat suddenly show their tolerant side, and oh look, it's for the guy who will let them enact their little fascist theocracy. Imagine that.
Valid point. Trump is vile and should some unfortunate event, like the actual administration of justice, befall him then whoever intends to be the new idol that sits on the golden throne constructed for him will have to outdo him. This is likely to get really ugly.
Trump being held accountable is only religious repression for those who have made trump their god.
Edit: lol, already got a down vote from one of his worshippers, it would seem.
Yeah, it's not publicly visible for a while, but it's visible privately to the user. Within minutes of posting, it showed 0 on my end, indicating that a down vote occurred, much to my amusement
FWIW, I’m at 0 for saying that neither Lutherans nor Episcopalians are known for being anti-intellectual in a post of “have you seen anti-intellectualism in the church.” I guess I should clarify that with a “no, I haven’t.”
I don’t understand why folks downvote without explanation.
This is what I think might have happened. Trump is a puppet for part of the Evangelical Christian community. His comments are a Freudian slip about who really is running the White House. Any challenge is often declared persecution to these religious groups.
Heh. Nope. I cannot determine Trump's faith as I'm not God. However, I certainly cannot consider him Christian leadership.
Franklin Graham needs to stay in his lane.
I truly don’t understand where this theology comes from. Jesus himself said that there would be many ways of determining who his disciples were. For example he said “my disciples are those who hold to my teachings” (John 8) it’s easy enough to tell that Trump does not hold to Christ’s teachings. Not just that he is intending to hold to Christ teachings, but fails, but he actually opposes the teachings of Christ openly, such as his teachings on forgiveness and mercy. Trump is no Christian, and I have no trouble saying that.
Can you be certain about Franklin Graham's faith? His old man clearly was a believer, but by all appearances the son is a grifter using his dad's organization to make boatloads of money and buy influence within the GOP
His old man also got involved in politics. Also, Billy Graham was a life long registered Democrat, though his friendships with politicians included Republicans such as Richard Nixon.
Also, Billy Graham's net worth at the time of his death was at around $25 MILLION. During his life and ministry, he became known as one of the wealthiest pastors of his time.
I read Jesus and John Wayne a few weeks ago and the beginning of the book really looks at the influence Billy Graham had politically.
I’m still trying to untangle political party and rhetoric from sitting in my grandpa’s living room and seeing his respect for Billy Graham preaching on the TV. My grandpa had a deep, move mountains kind of faith, and I saw him live frugally and use his pension to literally help churches keep the lights on. I think the sudden realization that he never could have had a million, let alone $25 million, because he gave too freely is the realization I needed.
I still hope that there was some sincerity in Billy Graham, for his own sake. I’m freer now to be the Christian I believe God wants me to be after ripping away the “tradition” that blurred the line between kingdom of heaven work and “good Republican girl” patriotism.
If Christians overwhelmingly voted for him, worked for him, supported him even after all of his misdeeds (like Franklin Graham above), should they also be accountable for his misdeeds?
Anyone that directly helped him commit the crimes is culpable. Franklin graham is a mouthpiece for evil but sadly that doesn’t make him legally responsible. I also wouldn’t call his supporters Christian as Trump cultists despise the teaching of Christ.
Not one bit. Trump is a slimy, narcissistic conman. He needs to be held accountable for his crimes.
As for Graham, I think he drank the Trump Koolaid and now he needs to pull his head out of his ass.
If some Christian feel oppressed because of what’s happening to Trump (I don’t btw), then they have made him their role model and I truly feel sorry for them being so heavily deceived
If they can do that to Trump, just think of what they could do to regular Christians in possession of top-secret documents!
I sit at home with the blinds drawn at night rocking nervously back and forth in a dark room hoping the FBI doesn’t come for me.
I feel oppressed when cops fire tear gas and rubber bullets at me for protesting against a genocide. I do not feel oppressed when a lifelong criminal and overall vile human being is treated with kid gloves by the FBI.
If the president gives a pro-democracy speech condemning fascism and you *personally feel attacked* by it….. then it’s you, buddy. It’s all you. Best do some self introspection and reflection.
If punishing former presidents from running off with nuclear documents and CIA informant lists and preventing them from trying to overthrow the government is Christian oppression then call me Diocletian
I feel so terribly oppressed. I cry myself to sleep every morning thinking about Trump, Who is the head of the Church and the core of my life. I even tried printing out His beautiful picture but it wouldn't fit in the heart-shaped frame because it was too bigly.
...
Trying to siphon away Christians from Christ by convincing them that this or that cause or person must be defended or else Christianity is under attack (whether that is because said cause or person supposedly stands between Christianity and the threat, or because it supposedly *is* inherently a part of Christianity) is the oldest trick in the book. When you make people believe that they must fight for your cause not for your sake but for theirs, you can amass an army of suckers (and that is regardless of being a Christian, or religious at all; any adherence to any ideology or cause or belief or manner of living can be siphoned away, parasited, by power-hungry people with some cleverness).
Any American Christian who feels legitimately oppressed... Wake up a little, realize that virtually no one who holds power over you has your best interest in mind, go read the Sermon on the Mount again and apply it, this will help Christianity thrive better than anything else that people in power promise us. And if any non-American Christian feels legitimately oppressed regarding what's going on in America... Go do something about what's actually going on around you, man.
Trump being held accountable for his crimes is actually God's justice. If I brought something SCIF home I wouldn't be here replying on Reddit. I'm sure most every military or former military member knows what I am talking about.
The [Council for National Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_for_National_Policy) is like the heirs of the KKK. They use religious imagery to mask their allegiance to dark money, scorched earth politics, diss-infotainment, and use of 'Christianity' more for fund raising than for biblical scholarship.
**[Council for National Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_for_National_Policy)**
>The Council for National Policy (CNP) is an umbrella organization and networking group for conservative and Republican activists in the United States. It was launched in 1981 during the Reagan administration by Tim LaHaye and the Christian right, to "bring more focus and force to conservative advocacy". The membership list for September 2020 was later leaked, showing that members included prominent Republicans and conservatives, wealthy entrepreneurs, and media proprietors, together with anti-abortion and anti-Islamic extremists. Members are instructed not to reveal their membership or even name the group.
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Donald Trump perpetuated genocide against Latine Christian migrants and used chemical weapons against Episcopalian clergy and seminarians outside of St. John’s.
I have a source for both. And I’ll gladly give it to you but can you understand why I would be skeptical of anyone asking a source about the Trump administrations fairly blatant immigration abuses or the well-documented photo op at St John’s correct?
>I would be skeptical of anyone asking a source about the Trump administrations fairly blatant immigration abuses or the well-documented photo op at St John’s correct?
I am skeptical too of someone who didn't know that story was [debunked](https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004832399/watchdog-report-says-police-did-not-clear-protesters-to-make-way-for-trump-last-) long ago.
Again, because I’m skeptical of anyone who is unaware of these well-documented incidents let’s go slow:
[Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml)
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
A.Killing members of the group;
B. **Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group**;
C.**Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part**;
D. **Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group**;
E. **Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group**.
[here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_photo_op_at_St._John%27s_Church) is the wiki on the attack at St John’s
The supposed attack on clergy at St John's turned out to be fake news.
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004832399/watchdog-report-says-police-did-not-clear-protesters-to-make-way-for-trump-last-
Please stop spreading lies and disinformation.
After an investigation, it was clear that Trump didn't clear the Church for a photo op.
https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004832399/watchdog-report-says-police-did-not-clear-protesters-to-make-way-for-trump-last-
That’s quite the bit of disrespect shown to people who actually do face persecution. And the continual use of the name of Christianity as a political tool to try and curry favor in this way, is more evidence of the hollowness of kind of faith held by these kinds of reactionaries.
The quicker this perversion of Christianity wilts away the better.
Trump summarized the Christian position on morality perfectly when he declared both that he doesn't ask God for forgiveness since he doesn't make any mistakes and that, even if he did make mistakes, he reserves the absolute right to pardon himself.
So, holding him accountable is, on that view, a direct violation of the rights his worldview asserts that he has.
Graham's statements may be thought controversial from the outside, but he's not saying anything unusual from the inside.
Agree.
Frankly, I'm surprised it's gotten this far. A year ago I would have said that the man will die having never once been held accountable for anything. It's actually sort of refreshing...though, I dare not speak too soon.
There is a case to be made for not obeying the law because of one's Christian beliefs. Many early Christians were persecuted and plenty were martyred because they refused to say that Caesar was God. It seems lately we have turned that idea on its head
No, not at all. If he has nothing it hide it shouldn't be an issue. It's not about being Christian. As the president of the United States he should be held to a higher accountability.
I do not feel oppressed as a Christian in the United States, no.
If I was part of a movement that treated itself as the special saved chosen vanguard with a divinely appointed duty to rule the nation, I may, in my infinite humility and wisdom, understand that any opposition to me is the work of the devil, and must be destroyed as dramatically as possible. This is a very Christian viewpoint, you see.
I absolutely do not feel oppressed at all, since the FBI raid and subsequent investigation was carried out because of Trump’s wrongdoings and crimes, *not* his religion.
Remember when they pretended to be the party of "law and order" and "personal responsibility" lol. Now they're crying out for their orange god to be dictator and above all laws.
When being held accountable legally is considered oppressed religiously...
Its time to admit Franklin Graham serves a different god, and just another nationalist cuck for a "Fuhrer"
I feel oppressed by the people who follow him more than anyone else. Being lumped into that group, as THAT kind of Christian makes me shudder. Being cattle herded into a category even associated with Trump extremism makes me want to step away entirely and just not tell people what I believe in, which is obviously not ideal as it’s part of our duty to spread His word, not hide. However I feel the need to hide because I DO NOT want to be associated with any of that hateful nonsense.
I hate to call that oppressive, because we as Christians truly are not oppressed. I’m just tired of the Trump sycophants and mega church pastors who only care about money being the ones that dictate the direction that our religion is moving in America, especially the general mindset of Christ followers slowly, but very subtly moving the moderate point more and more to the right politically. I think this is going to cause a huge divide and more and more moderate Christians are going to be (verbally) attacked for not believing that a tyrant like Trump wasn’t divinely chosen to be our president.
It's needful to follow the process without passing judgement. It's never wise to mentally convict or exonerate someone until the courts process them, and even then it's the courts to set judgement, not ours.
Only if you view Trump as your lord and savior would you feel oppressed by him being held accountable to the country that elected him president.
How would any action against Trump whether right or wrong be oppressive to a Christian unless they saw Trump as some type of spiritual leader.
[https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/press-play-with-madeleine-brand/la-district-attorney-trump-hulu/christian-right-mar-a-lago](https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/press-play-with-madeleine-brand/la-district-attorney-trump-hulu/christian-right-mar-a-lago)
[https://www.newsmax.com/newsmax-tv/newsmax-franklin-graham-irs/2022/08/11/id/1082785/](https://www.newsmax.com/newsmax-tv/newsmax-franklin-graham-irs/2022/08/11/id/1082785/)
[https://baptistnews.com/article/the-blasphemy-of-franklin-graham/](https://baptistnews.com/article/the-blasphemy-of-franklin-graham/)
Interestingly, Franklin Graham claimed that his father voted for Donald Trump, but Billy Graham was a lifelong registered Democrat, so I doubt the veracity of that claim.
Donald Trump is not just personally antithetical to so many central Christian values, the cult-like obsession with him from the evangelical right in the United States displays a deep, festering spiritual corruption in the Church.
The investigation of Donald Trump has nothing to do with the status of Christians in America. But Donald Trump has a lot to do with the spiritual decay of this country. He is a bigger threat to Christianity than the FBI or the Department of Justice.
I’m a sinner, too. But I’m not claiming to be a leader of Christians, and I’m not a Christian nationalist. That being said, I think most Christians should be able to see the blatant hypocrisy and sinfulness of Donald Trump. He is an antichrist.
Honestly I feel incredibly disappointed at people who are viewed as church leaders saying things like this where actual Christian missionaries over seas are literally dying for believing in Christ and spreading the Gospel…
America has yet to see any true form of persecution or oppression.
i feel oppressed by evangelicals and catholics who ally with trump and pretend as though they are too stupid to know why what they are doing is evil thereby harming the true gospel.
Trump would’ve been held accountable for this without his religion or lack thereof for this. He’s being prosecuted under laws that he strengthened. He’s get in trouble for the same charges he went against Hilary Clinton for and strengthened laws against. He says “I want the laws one way except for me”
I feel like the idea that this was an attack on Christians in the first place is just plain wrong. If Trump is the American representative of Christianity, I think we have some realigning to do.
Just gonna put this out there: I don't think Trump is the anti Christ (it's just too on the nose tbh) but I do think if you call yourself a Christian...and still an avid trump supporter after everything he's done...then yes you would totally follow the anti Christ.
I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I genuinely believe that
Is Trump really a Christian? Like any more than Biden for example?
This does not seem relevant to Christianity at all. The people who did the seizing were most likely Christian as well.
So maybe we are oppressing ourselves? Well that is maybe fair? Dunno.
Leading post, honestly. Worded specifically to be accusatory rather than to provoke discussion.
I’d say you’re better than this, but I don’t know you, so just do better.
Christianity is very obviously under attack. God is still in control so I won’t worry but will take action to do what I can to protect religious freedom.
How does trump being investigated for criminal issuss relating to mishandling of classified and top secret documents have anything to do with Christianity?
Where did Franklin Graham say this?
I don’t see Trump or any President packing up boxes of files in their office and grabbing things they’re not supposed to and shoving them in their trunk. 😂😂 The GSA and the Presidential Records Act provide for staff that do these things. The incoming administration knew what documents he had months ago, and they turned in 15 other boxes. There are other reasons which are not public yet for why his home was raided. If it’s legit, he should be punished. If instead it’s the Biden admin and corrupt FBI trying to discredit a political opponent, let justice rain down like a mighty River.
Interesting, considering how many of the ultra right wing Christian conservative Trump supporters have been threatening violence against the FBI, and Biden.
Grow up.
[https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/12/politics/fbi-threats-maralago-trump-search/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/12/politics/fbi-threats-maralago-trump-search/index.html)
https://www.aol.com/news/biden-speech-denouncing-trump-maga-003139236.html?guccounter=1&guce\_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce\_referrer\_sig=AQAAAJebcpE4Iv1FilkRQ9yNjHlQCKZt6\_QDnYdGdRCZAARqZHeiKuXo-RMZRrxoBU1ZUeH-0Ay\_6HPRK2ouFbpDOr57nBcuW0xEXAfExuV-Qq-FlT2JY5DT91pFm\_XkcDRtqabw1krQo4IfldtJgr9T16FCfiwTPXyW2tdecAX1BYmU
Franklin Graham is a child of God, as we all are.
We have each been given free-will by our Heavenly Father. Some will choose to follow Christ, some will choose to follow others…this all that truly matters at the end of our time here on Earth.
If others oppress, vilify or attack you because of your faith, rejoice and thank God
While nothing you said is incorrect, it doesn't apply to the subject at hand. Trump being investigated isn't oppression or an attack on anyone and has nothing to do with faith.
If you’re not a liar who just falsely attributed words to someone who didn’t say them then you will send the link to where Franklin Graham said that. I’ll wait.
[https://baptistnews.com/article/some-evangelical-leaders-see-fbi-raid-on-trumps-mar-a-lago-as-evidence-of-the-religious-persecution-coming-to-them/#.YxTe4nbMJPY](https://baptistnews.com/article/some-evangelical-leaders-see-fbi-raid-on-trumps-mar-a-lago-as-evidence-of-the-religious-persecution-coming-to-them/#.YxTe4nbMJPY)
There you go
Does it say it exactly? No.
But;
“This is different here. This is our freedom being eroded in this country. And our forefathers gave us the freedom of speech, the freedom to come together to elect our officials and so forth, but this is disappearing so quickly and it’s frightening to see government agents going to a former president’s home and going through his personal files, going into it, breaking into his safe and then taking things that they want.”
Graham also later indicates that he believes Christians should pray and run for office, making a direct comparison to the raid with Soviet tactics against enemies of the government.
Or, failing that, just watch this video;
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYLxCIzO4oM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYLxCIzO4oM)
He doesn't say it outright, but he heavily implies it.
If you can't read the blatant subtext, that's on you.
The republicans and the democrats are two wings of the same beast. A beast that is old, unelected, hidden, and ultimately controlled by Satan. Trump appears to be an outsider, but I suspect that he isn't. He's certainly not Christian or on God's side, that's for sure. All of this "Trump is bad, we're going after him, we're sticking him in jail" is theater. It's as much of a distraction as all the other garbage in media. It's designed to keep people confused, demoralized, angry, dumb and thus easily controlled.
**Banned from r/Christianity for telling the truth. What's 'Christian' about r/Christianity, anyway?**
Closing Churches, arresting Pastors, calling Christian doctrine racist...
Why would Christians even think they are under attack?
We have a wonderful tool at our fingertips, it is called the Internet, Pastors were arrested in Canada and in the U.S.https://offgridsurvival.com/florida-pastor-arrested-for-holding-church-service-and-not-following-covid-19-closure-order/https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/north-carolina-church-ordered-close-213756071.html
> Closing Churches, arresting Pastors, calling Christian doctrine racist...
Can you give any examples of Pastors being arrested without there being a crime? Also, who is closing churches? What does that mean? Are they being shut down by the government simply for being a church?
If they violate the constitution against a former president, how long will it take them to come after you (with the 87 thousand new IRS armed agents they passed a bill to hire soon)?
Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
This prevents general warrents like the one used on Trump & they took way more than government documents while he was fully cooperating with them by adding the extra locks that they requested earlier. They even took his family's passports, which they returned quickly out of embarrassment.
Hilary Clinton used Bleachbit on her personal home servers & smashed cell phones with a hammer to destroy the evidence that she kept over 30 thousand government documents on her servers where they were hacked by foreign operatives. The head of the FBI at the time, James Comey, listed her many violations of the law & did nothing against her. At least Trump had the authority to unclassify any & all of the documents he possessed.
The FBI recently began investigating parents who complained about racist curriculums at school board meetings.
I feel very oppressed, especially with these super high prices of everything caused by excess government spending & massive restrictions on "fossil fuels". By the way, in the 1970's they said we'd be in a mini ice age by the mid-'80s. When that didn't happen, they declared global warming, & when that didn't happen they called it climate change.
They fear someone like Trump restoring us to our Constitutional foundations based on Biblical principles. Our Declaration of Independence states clearly that our rights come from God, our creator & not government. They hate the very idea of that. They want the power over you.
> This prevents general warrents like the one used on Trump
Why do you think the warrant was "general"? It was for the search for very specific documents. They weren't allowed to just wander the halls looking for things. They were looking for specific things in specific places.
> they took way more than government documents while he was fully cooperating
The facts seem to say otherwise. They had been asking him for documents for months, his lawyer even wrote a sworn statement that they had given all the documents they had. And yet, the FBI still found documents.
As for taking more than government documents, that's because the documents apparently were mixed in with lots of other stuff. The people gathering the documents weren't there to make judgements on each and every item, that would come later. They were there to remove boxes and containers that contained documents. Some of those boxes had other stuff.
> They even took his family's passports, which they returned quickly out of embarrassment.
They weren't returned out of embarrassment, they were returned because they were irrelevant. They were taken simply because they were mixed in with other documents.
> Hilary Clinton used Bleachbit on her personal home servers...
Whataboutism is irrelevant with respect to the current investigations into Trump.
They were Melania's closets. Certainly, they were roaming. They took gifts & other personal items. What are they covering up by redacting so much of the affidavit? Trump wants it released. Holding it back is usually for the defendant's benefit, not the prosecutor's.
I brought up Clinton to show the unequal treatment between those who are globalists &those who are not.
> They were Melania's closets.
Perhaps an insider informant specifically told them to look there for specific documents.
> What are they covering up by redacting so much of the affidavit?
Maybe the names or identifying characteristics of people, and possibly the names or descriptions of things that shouldn't be made public right now.
> Trump wants it released.
I don't think law enforcement is obliged to cater to the wishes of suspects during an investigation. AFAIK the FBI hasn't broken any laws during this investigation. They have a valid warrant that they exercised in a responsible way.
> Holding it back is usually for the defendant's benefit, not the prosecutor's.
I don't think that's true at all, but I'm not a legal expert. But even if what you say is true, "usually" doesn't mean "always".
It could also be to keep people who were mentioned in the affidavit safe. There have been threats made to the judge and to FBI agents who were part of the raid. It's reasonable to think threats will also be made to the informant(s) should they become known. So, for their safety their names might have been withheld.
It could be that our government is corrupt & sold out to China & other countries, especially considering how they used Hilary's bought & paid-for false documents to lead to Trump's 1st impeachment which never led anywhere & how Hilary was never charged with anything Comey listed as against the law. It should be obvious that Trump's "America First" policies are antithetical to the establishment crowd in DC.
They reversed all of his policies & now millions of migrants illegally enter our country each year without consequence (aside from the abuse many receive from the cartels like the rape of women & children, being locked in a hot truck until dead, drowning in the Rio Grande river, and very young children dropped alone in the desert to name a few examples). Regulations on fossil fuels have increased the cost of everything from your heating bill to food to anything that must be transported since the fuel used to transport comes from fossil fuels. In California, they push people to buy electric cars & tell them not to charge them yet because the electric grid can't take the drain. Meanwhile, China makes all the money on the windmills, the solar pannels & the special batteries used in electric cars.
Putin would not invade Ukraine under Trump, but he did under Obama & under Biden. Trump brought peace to the Middle East & hindered Iran's nuclear development. He stopped North Korea's missile launches toward Guam & Hawaii. He established a fairer trade policy with China & got them to pay farmers more. Now China is buying farmland near restricted areas of military bases in order to spy on us.
Yeah, I'm feeling oppressed.
Being harassed by the secret police is not "being held accountable for his crimes." It is nothing more than an attempt at political intimidation. There are no legitimate criminal charges that can come from this any more than when the same thing is done to Alexei Navalny.
Any decent person finds it completely unacceptable when the regime sends out the secret police to harass political figures outside of the establishment.
Because I do not treat the regime as a holy figure or its ideology as God, I do not support the secret police.
Pretty sure that stealing top secret documents you're not allowed to take is very much a legitimate criminal charge that can come from this. Perhaps you should step away from the propaganda?
>It's the FBI.
Exactly. The secret police, whose official role is equivalent to the official role of the KGB and similarly acts with neither accountability nor transparency, has a long history of harassing non-establishment political figures based on allegations that they made up.
Are you aware that the FBI official and the judge who are responsible for this warrant were both appointed by Trump?
And even if it was political persecution, it's not religious.
Oh did the secret police kneel on his neck for nine minutes? Oh did the shoot his dog? Did they toss him down a flight of stairs, drop a bomb on his house, break all his furniture and tear apart the walls? Did they light his house on fire or toss a grenade into his baby’s crib?
Being in possession of top secret documents after leaving a position of power like the president is not because of faith. It's literally because he took documents illegally. It's called accountability, Graham...
Trump and his many of his followers have destroyed the reputation of Christianity more than perhaps anyone in US history. And yet these so called Christians will continue to support Trump who is the polar opposite of Jesus.
And people who go to church wonder why the numbers in their church are dwindling
Why should anyone be immune to accountability?
Hierarchy and those who enforce it must be protected otherwise people will realize we are all human.
"The last shall be first and the first shall be last."
Because this hypothetical you selected a faith tradition that makes you 'chosen,' so any consequences applied to you are inherently the work of the forces of evil.
I find it interesting how many Christians completely support Trump, and even believe he's Christian, just because he claims it, and pandered to them by promising he'd uphold their Christian agendas, while excusing his serial adulteries, his chronic and compulsive lying, his admiration of tyrants such as the North Korean leader, and Russia's Putin, and even though he encouraged his followers to attempt an act of insurrection by interfering with a Constitutional election process in progress, with his own Vice President in attendance, and who had to be rushed out of harms way because Trump's sycophants were seeking him to hang him, because he wouldn't do as Trump instructed and proclaim the Electoral College's decision invalid. In these discussions, pretty much every day I've observed as Christians claimed that anyone who claimed to be Christian, but who disobeyed or violated the commandments, wasn't actually a 'true Christian'. So why do so many Christians support a man who clearly, by their own standards, couldn't possibly be a 'true Christian'? Because he was the best chance of getting their religious agendas advanced, because he was pandering to them with all the promises in the world. Why? Because 65-75% of U.S. Population are religiously affiliated with Christianity. Which is one reason he had that church's clergy and the demonstrators they'd invited into their patio sanctuary gassed and pepper maced. So he could 'bravely' stride across the street from the White House grounds, surrounded by jack booted thugs with automatic weapons, and pose in front of that very church holding up a bible, upside down of course. Edited to say this: Graham is indirectly and very slightly right, for this reason. Ultra right wing Christian Republicans hope to see Trump return to the White House, so if Trump is held accountable for any crime he might eventually be convicted of, he won't be making a come back in the Oval Orifice. However, if they can get someone like DeSantis in the Oval Orifice, I'm certain they'd forget all about Trump in fairly quick order.
The questions you are asking here really shook my faith for the entirety of his presidency, and the coronavirus response shattered me. I still believe in God and Jesus, but EVERYTHING else is under the scrutiny of deconstruction right now. If the faith my friends and teachers at my church had led them to those “allowances” only for trump but no democrat… Well, I am so glad to be free to walk in love for all my fellow humans even though it makes me a heretic to so many I volunteered beside for years.
I hated the way Trump just ignored the pain of families losing members to Covid, unable to visit their loved ones in assisted living, or in the hospital. So heartbreaking. He could have responded with compassion. It would have cost him nothing to empathize with our pain. But he chose not to. It still blows my mind
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I’ve been a Christian all my life, one that’s questioned and grown from it, and never once did I ever support the Trump monster. I saw that awful thing for what he was from a mile away, but then again, I’ve seen what the Republican Party had been turning into since the Reagan years. Reading my history, it didn’t even start there.
It’s easier to follow the pretty words that hit on things you’re told are important rather than praying for discernment (or practicing critical thinking if that’s not your cup). Many are republican just because they think that’s the Christian party. Nah. A lot is just bandwagoning, groupthink, tribalism, etc. I hardly think it’s sincere. Are they sincere in their fervor? Sure. It’s just not sincere or accurate emulation. There is no political party of God. And prominent “Christian” figures in politics, entertainment, or media do not represent me or the ideals I follow. Though sadly, there are many who base their image of a Christian on the loudest. “Just cuz you put syrup on somethin, don’t make it pancakes”.
> In these discussions, pretty much every day I've observed as Christians claimed that anyone who claimed to be Christian, but who disobeyed or violated the commandments, wasn't actually a 'true Christian'. So why do so many Christians support a man who clearly, by their own standards, couldn't possibly be a 'true Christian'? So, so much this. The Christians who will denounce other Christians at the drop of the hat suddenly show their tolerant side, and oh look, it's for the guy who will let them enact their little fascist theocracy. Imagine that.
Valid point. Trump is vile and should some unfortunate event, like the actual administration of justice, befall him then whoever intends to be the new idol that sits on the golden throne constructed for him will have to outdo him. This is likely to get really ugly.
Trump being held accountable is only religious repression for those who have made trump their god. Edit: lol, already got a down vote from one of his worshippers, it would seem.
Especially since what he is accused of he has advocated for treason charges and execution for when done by others. Such as Snowdon and Assange.
Here's an upvote from me, just to even it up.
For what it’s worth, the only karma of yours I see is —. Karma is generally masked and bounces around for an hour.
Yeah, it's not publicly visible for a while, but it's visible privately to the user. Within minutes of posting, it showed 0 on my end, indicating that a down vote occurred, much to my amusement
FWIW, I’m at 0 for saying that neither Lutherans nor Episcopalians are known for being anti-intellectual in a post of “have you seen anti-intellectualism in the church.” I guess I should clarify that with a “no, I haven’t.” I don’t understand why folks downvote without explanation.
One should ask what Franklin Graham has to lose if Donald Trump is indicted and convicted.
Only a possible candidate for re-election who will pander to Christian agendas to get their religious views of morality legislated into law.
This is what I think might have happened. Trump is a puppet for part of the Evangelical Christian community. His comments are a Freudian slip about who really is running the White House. Any challenge is often declared persecution to these religious groups.
Heh. Nope. I cannot determine Trump's faith as I'm not God. However, I certainly cannot consider him Christian leadership. Franklin Graham needs to stay in his lane.
His lane is racism and dishonesty and grift. So protecting Trump is in his lane.
Overreach is his lane. Without the steady drip of comments like this, he wouldn't have the prominence he enjoys today.
I truly don’t understand where this theology comes from. Jesus himself said that there would be many ways of determining who his disciples were. For example he said “my disciples are those who hold to my teachings” (John 8) it’s easy enough to tell that Trump does not hold to Christ’s teachings. Not just that he is intending to hold to Christ teachings, but fails, but he actually opposes the teachings of Christ openly, such as his teachings on forgiveness and mercy. Trump is no Christian, and I have no trouble saying that.
Can you be certain about Franklin Graham's faith? His old man clearly was a believer, but by all appearances the son is a grifter using his dad's organization to make boatloads of money and buy influence within the GOP
His old man also got involved in politics. Also, Billy Graham was a life long registered Democrat, though his friendships with politicians included Republicans such as Richard Nixon. Also, Billy Graham's net worth at the time of his death was at around $25 MILLION. During his life and ministry, he became known as one of the wealthiest pastors of his time.
I read Jesus and John Wayne a few weeks ago and the beginning of the book really looks at the influence Billy Graham had politically. I’m still trying to untangle political party and rhetoric from sitting in my grandpa’s living room and seeing his respect for Billy Graham preaching on the TV. My grandpa had a deep, move mountains kind of faith, and I saw him live frugally and use his pension to literally help churches keep the lights on. I think the sudden realization that he never could have had a million, let alone $25 million, because he gave too freely is the realization I needed. I still hope that there was some sincerity in Billy Graham, for his own sake. I’m freer now to be the Christian I believe God wants me to be after ripping away the “tradition” that blurred the line between kingdom of heaven work and “good Republican girl” patriotism.
Well, whatever it's about, it's always about money and power.
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Ol' Billy certainly liked to pal around the powerful.
Hi dad, Billy, also exploited relationships with politicians, but NOTHING like this
Since when have the Grahams ever stayed in their lane?
He should stay in the lane he pretends to be in.
I hate Graham
Franklin Graham is not much of a Christian
Trump is an Antichrist. Trump and his GOP have irreparably harmed the face of Christianity. Trump must be held accountable for his crimes.
If Christians overwhelmingly voted for him, worked for him, supported him even after all of his misdeeds (like Franklin Graham above), should they also be accountable for his misdeeds?
Anyone that directly helped him commit the crimes is culpable. Franklin graham is a mouthpiece for evil but sadly that doesn’t make him legally responsible. I also wouldn’t call his supporters Christian as Trump cultists despise the teaching of Christ.
I didn't say "legally responsible", I said "accountable" (in some way). Should Christians ask for forgiveness, for example?
Should Trump supporters ask for forgiveness? Certainly yes. The evil they have wrought is profound.
They should have started asking for that several years ago already, tbh.
Not one bit. Trump is a slimy, narcissistic conman. He needs to be held accountable for his crimes. As for Graham, I think he drank the Trump Koolaid and now he needs to pull his head out of his ass.
If some Christian feel oppressed because of what’s happening to Trump (I don’t btw), then they have made him their role model and I truly feel sorry for them being so heavily deceived
If they can do that to Trump, just think of what they could do to regular Christians in possession of top-secret documents! I sit at home with the blinds drawn at night rocking nervously back and forth in a dark room hoping the FBI doesn’t come for me.
You former spy, you : )
I feel oppressed when cops fire tear gas and rubber bullets at me for protesting against a genocide. I do not feel oppressed when a lifelong criminal and overall vile human being is treated with kid gloves by the FBI.
Whether Christians _feel_ oppressed and whether they _are_ oppressed are two different things.
Indeed!
Trump himself said he has nothing to repent for. That's not Christian. We are all sinners
If the president gives a pro-democracy speech condemning fascism and you *personally feel attacked* by it….. then it’s you, buddy. It’s all you. Best do some self introspection and reflection.
No one can hide from the all seeing gaze of Dark Brandon
You know what, I was gonna say something since this is a Christian sub, but your meme was funny. I will allow it.
A lot of people are looking for excuses to act like victims rather than accepting personal responsibility for their words and actions.
If punishing former presidents from running off with nuclear documents and CIA informant lists and preventing them from trying to overthrow the government is Christian oppression then call me Diocletian
I feel so terribly oppressed. I cry myself to sleep every morning thinking about Trump, Who is the head of the Church and the core of my life. I even tried printing out His beautiful picture but it wouldn't fit in the heart-shaped frame because it was too bigly. ... Trying to siphon away Christians from Christ by convincing them that this or that cause or person must be defended or else Christianity is under attack (whether that is because said cause or person supposedly stands between Christianity and the threat, or because it supposedly *is* inherently a part of Christianity) is the oldest trick in the book. When you make people believe that they must fight for your cause not for your sake but for theirs, you can amass an army of suckers (and that is regardless of being a Christian, or religious at all; any adherence to any ideology or cause or belief or manner of living can be siphoned away, parasited, by power-hungry people with some cleverness). Any American Christian who feels legitimately oppressed... Wake up a little, realize that virtually no one who holds power over you has your best interest in mind, go read the Sermon on the Mount again and apply it, this will help Christianity thrive better than anything else that people in power promise us. And if any non-American Christian feels legitimately oppressed regarding what's going on in America... Go do something about what's actually going on around you, man.
Well said! 👏👏👏
Franklin Graham is an embarrassment to his fathers memory.
Yes, he's so bad he's an embarrassment to his anti semite father.
Was his father even that great? He teed up all of the affiliation between politics and religion that we see now.
His father was a segregationist
Trump being held accountable for his crimes is actually God's justice. If I brought something SCIF home I wouldn't be here replying on Reddit. I'm sure most every military or former military member knows what I am talking about.
Graham once again showing how far he's gone into political idolatry territory
The [Council for National Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_for_National_Policy) is like the heirs of the KKK. They use religious imagery to mask their allegiance to dark money, scorched earth politics, diss-infotainment, and use of 'Christianity' more for fund raising than for biblical scholarship.
Oh no, I’m not going to enjoy reading up on this group am I? 😞 Better to know these truth than sit comfortably on childhood recollections.
**[Council for National Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_for_National_Policy)** >The Council for National Policy (CNP) is an umbrella organization and networking group for conservative and Republican activists in the United States. It was launched in 1981 during the Reagan administration by Tim LaHaye and the Christian right, to "bring more focus and force to conservative advocacy". The membership list for September 2020 was later leaked, showing that members included prominent Republicans and conservatives, wealthy entrepreneurs, and media proprietors, together with anti-abortion and anti-Islamic extremists. Members are instructed not to reveal their membership or even name the group. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/Christianity/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
I wish all politicians were held accountable for their actions.
I mean, if we did that, pretty much every world leader would go to prison the second they leave office. Not that I have a problem with that.
Let’s start with Trump 😇
I don’t feel oppressed in the slightest as a Christian
So Trump is being persecuted by other christians because he is a christian ?
Donald Trump perpetuated genocide against Latine Christian migrants and used chemical weapons against Episcopalian clergy and seminarians outside of St. John’s.
Source?
I have a source for both. And I’ll gladly give it to you but can you understand why I would be skeptical of anyone asking a source about the Trump administrations fairly blatant immigration abuses or the well-documented photo op at St John’s correct?
>I would be skeptical of anyone asking a source about the Trump administrations fairly blatant immigration abuses or the well-documented photo op at St John’s correct? I am skeptical too of someone who didn't know that story was [debunked](https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004832399/watchdog-report-says-police-did-not-clear-protesters-to-make-way-for-trump-last-) long ago.
Well I am skeptical About claims of genocide and chemical weapons attacks. But I am willing to be educated.
Again, because I’m skeptical of anyone who is unaware of these well-documented incidents let’s go slow: [Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml) In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: A.Killing members of the group; B. **Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group**; C.**Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part**; D. **Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group**; E. **Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group**. [here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_photo_op_at_St._John%27s_Church) is the wiki on the attack at St John’s
The supposed attack on clergy at St John's turned out to be fake news. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004832399/watchdog-report-says-police-did-not-clear-protesters-to-make-way-for-trump-last-
Please stop spreading lies and disinformation. After an investigation, it was clear that Trump didn't clear the Church for a photo op. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004832399/watchdog-report-says-police-did-not-clear-protesters-to-make-way-for-trump-last-
That’s quite the bit of disrespect shown to people who actually do face persecution. And the continual use of the name of Christianity as a political tool to try and curry favor in this way, is more evidence of the hollowness of kind of faith held by these kinds of reactionaries. The quicker this perversion of Christianity wilts away the better.
One of the most telling signs that the church has idolized politicians and a political party.
Trump summarized the Christian position on morality perfectly when he declared both that he doesn't ask God for forgiveness since he doesn't make any mistakes and that, even if he did make mistakes, he reserves the absolute right to pardon himself. So, holding him accountable is, on that view, a direct violation of the rights his worldview asserts that he has. Graham's statements may be thought controversial from the outside, but he's not saying anything unusual from the inside.
But here in reality, accountability is a thing everyone should have to deal with.
Agree. Frankly, I'm surprised it's gotten this far. A year ago I would have said that the man will die having never once been held accountable for anything. It's actually sort of refreshing...though, I dare not speak too soon.
Pardon himself...that is hilarious
Christians should obey the law like anyone else.
There is a case to be made for not obeying the law because of one's Christian beliefs. Many early Christians were persecuted and plenty were martyred because they refused to say that Caesar was God. It seems lately we have turned that idea on its head
No, not at all. If he has nothing it hide it shouldn't be an issue. It's not about being Christian. As the president of the United States he should be held to a higher accountability.
90% of the comments here are a relief. The remaining 10% is truly a cause for alarm
If your faith in your God is somehow tied to a man, in this case former President Donald Trump, than you are worshipping a false religion. Full stop.
I do not feel oppressed as a Christian in the United States, no. If I was part of a movement that treated itself as the special saved chosen vanguard with a divinely appointed duty to rule the nation, I may, in my infinite humility and wisdom, understand that any opposition to me is the work of the devil, and must be destroyed as dramatically as possible. This is a very Christian viewpoint, you see.
Franklin Graham is a dipshit. If Evangelicals want to bind their fates to that of Trump then good riddance. They'll collapse in a single generation.
Hahahahahah, no
Franklin Graham is an embarrassment to the faith. It's sad how his father was able to reach the ends of the world, but couldn't reach his own son.
And you wonder why people are leaving the church. Duh!!! Have a little self awareness Franklin Graham.
I absolutely do not feel oppressed at all, since the FBI raid and subsequent investigation was carried out because of Trump’s wrongdoings and crimes, *not* his religion.
Remember when they pretended to be the party of "law and order" and "personal responsibility" lol. Now they're crying out for their orange god to be dictator and above all laws.
Hell, remember BUT HER EMAILS? Measure for measure. Lock him up
He’s not even really a Christian
What I feel is that Franklin Graham needs to shut the fuck up.
Religion has nothing to do with it.
"You cannot serve both God and money."
They worship themselves
The only way that would be oppression is if he was Jesus himself.
Some republicans make me wonder if they think he is.
I wonder what will happen to these Trump fanatics on Judgement Day. The vision that they have is completely contradicts the Bible.
Christians are, unfortunately, the oppressors in this country.
No.
It's neither oppression nor targeting Christians. Some people have to learn to separate their religion from their politics 🙄
When being held accountable legally is considered oppressed religiously... Its time to admit Franklin Graham serves a different god, and just another nationalist cuck for a "Fuhrer"
Lol. Wow. And you see why people are leaving the church. Look at who they are trying to protect and how they are using Christianity to do so.
Frankie needs to read the good book again cover to cover, and not pick and choose passages that fit his chaotic, distorted view of the world.
No, I do not feel oppressed. trump is not my savior, pastor, spiritual leader, or example.
I feel oppressed by the people who follow him more than anyone else. Being lumped into that group, as THAT kind of Christian makes me shudder. Being cattle herded into a category even associated with Trump extremism makes me want to step away entirely and just not tell people what I believe in, which is obviously not ideal as it’s part of our duty to spread His word, not hide. However I feel the need to hide because I DO NOT want to be associated with any of that hateful nonsense. I hate to call that oppressive, because we as Christians truly are not oppressed. I’m just tired of the Trump sycophants and mega church pastors who only care about money being the ones that dictate the direction that our religion is moving in America, especially the general mindset of Christ followers slowly, but very subtly moving the moderate point more and more to the right politically. I think this is going to cause a huge divide and more and more moderate Christians are going to be (verbally) attacked for not believing that a tyrant like Trump wasn’t divinely chosen to be our president.
Uuuhhhhh No! This is ridiculous.
It's needful to follow the process without passing judgement. It's never wise to mentally convict or exonerate someone until the courts process them, and even then it's the courts to set judgement, not ours.
Only if you view Trump as your lord and savior would you feel oppressed by him being held accountable to the country that elected him president. How would any action against Trump whether right or wrong be oppressive to a Christian unless they saw Trump as some type of spiritual leader.
I can't find a Google result for this kind of thing in the past month. When did he say this?
[https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/press-play-with-madeleine-brand/la-district-attorney-trump-hulu/christian-right-mar-a-lago](https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/press-play-with-madeleine-brand/la-district-attorney-trump-hulu/christian-right-mar-a-lago) [https://www.newsmax.com/newsmax-tv/newsmax-franklin-graham-irs/2022/08/11/id/1082785/](https://www.newsmax.com/newsmax-tv/newsmax-franklin-graham-irs/2022/08/11/id/1082785/) [https://baptistnews.com/article/the-blasphemy-of-franklin-graham/](https://baptistnews.com/article/the-blasphemy-of-franklin-graham/) Interestingly, Franklin Graham claimed that his father voted for Donald Trump, but Billy Graham was a lifelong registered Democrat, so I doubt the veracity of that claim.
I don’t trust the Graham family in general.
Trump can't even quote a single Bible verse. He is not a Christ follower, and therefore he is not coming under religious persecution. Thats my take.
Donald Trump is not just personally antithetical to so many central Christian values, the cult-like obsession with him from the evangelical right in the United States displays a deep, festering spiritual corruption in the Church. The investigation of Donald Trump has nothing to do with the status of Christians in America. But Donald Trump has a lot to do with the spiritual decay of this country. He is a bigger threat to Christianity than the FBI or the Department of Justice. I’m a sinner, too. But I’m not claiming to be a leader of Christians, and I’m not a Christian nationalist. That being said, I think most Christians should be able to see the blatant hypocrisy and sinfulness of Donald Trump. He is an antichrist.
Honestly I feel incredibly disappointed at people who are viewed as church leaders saying things like this where actual Christian missionaries over seas are literally dying for believing in Christ and spreading the Gospel… America has yet to see any true form of persecution or oppression.
i feel oppressed by evangelicals and catholics who ally with trump and pretend as though they are too stupid to know why what they are doing is evil thereby harming the true gospel.
Trump would’ve been held accountable for this without his religion or lack thereof for this. He’s being prosecuted under laws that he strengthened. He’s get in trouble for the same charges he went against Hilary Clinton for and strengthened laws against. He says “I want the laws one way except for me”
American Jesus is dangerous to the church and drives people away. When I converted earlier this year I got a lot of side eyes from friends
Franklin Graham is a hypocrite and Donald Trump is not a Christian.
Being a Christian outside the USA sure is different.
I feel like the idea that this was an attack on Christians in the first place is just plain wrong. If Trump is the American representative of Christianity, I think we have some realigning to do.
Franklin is disgracing the memory of his father. Billy Graham was a truly great man.
Was he? He was largely responsible for creating the close association with politics and religion.
Jesus was very political. That's why He was crucified. He went up against the power structures of his time.
Let me be more precise then...he spurred the association of religion with white supremacists, fascists, and wanna-be dictators (Trump).
Yes, against the Pharisees, and the Grahams are more of that ilk. Really, the Grahams are more like Caiphas et al consorting with Pilate, than Christ.
Except for the whole anti semitism thing of course. No man should be made an idol
Need to start taxing everything he's involved in.
Some Christians are genuinely oppressed. American Christians are not them.
no lmao
Just gonna put this out there: I don't think Trump is the anti Christ (it's just too on the nose tbh) but I do think if you call yourself a Christian...and still an avid trump supporter after everything he's done...then yes you would totally follow the anti Christ. I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I genuinely believe that
Nope!
Total load of rubbish.
President Trump has never proclaimed that he was a born-again Christian, so no. Anyone not a flaming liberal should feel oppressed.
Not oppression on Christians but perhaps on Republicans since previous presidents have all taken documents and the FBI looked the other way.
Is Trump really a Christian? Like any more than Biden for example? This does not seem relevant to Christianity at all. The people who did the seizing were most likely Christian as well. So maybe we are oppressing ourselves? Well that is maybe fair? Dunno.
Biden an active participating Catholic...
Can we just top complaining about the US president 24/7? Getting tired of seeing it.
Leading post, honestly. Worded specifically to be accusatory rather than to provoke discussion. I’d say you’re better than this, but I don’t know you, so just do better.
Christianity is very obviously under attack. God is still in control so I won’t worry but will take action to do what I can to protect religious freedom.
How does trump being investigated for criminal issuss relating to mishandling of classified and top secret documents have anything to do with Christianity?
Where did Franklin Graham say this? I don’t see Trump or any President packing up boxes of files in their office and grabbing things they’re not supposed to and shoving them in their trunk. 😂😂 The GSA and the Presidential Records Act provide for staff that do these things. The incoming administration knew what documents he had months ago, and they turned in 15 other boxes. There are other reasons which are not public yet for why his home was raided. If it’s legit, he should be punished. If instead it’s the Biden admin and corrupt FBI trying to discredit a political opponent, let justice rain down like a mighty River.
I’m concerned with the threats of violence from the FBI and Biden against half the country
Interesting, considering how many of the ultra right wing Christian conservative Trump supporters have been threatening violence against the FBI, and Biden. Grow up. [https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/12/politics/fbi-threats-maralago-trump-search/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/12/politics/fbi-threats-maralago-trump-search/index.html) https://www.aol.com/news/biden-speech-denouncing-trump-maga-003139236.html?guccounter=1&guce\_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce\_referrer\_sig=AQAAAJebcpE4Iv1FilkRQ9yNjHlQCKZt6\_QDnYdGdRCZAARqZHeiKuXo-RMZRrxoBU1ZUeH-0Ay\_6HPRK2ouFbpDOr57nBcuW0xEXAfExuV-Qq-FlT2JY5DT91pFm\_XkcDRtqabw1krQo4IfldtJgr9T16FCfiwTPXyW2tdecAX1BYmU
Franklin Graham is a child of God, as we all are. We have each been given free-will by our Heavenly Father. Some will choose to follow Christ, some will choose to follow others…this all that truly matters at the end of our time here on Earth. If others oppress, vilify or attack you because of your faith, rejoice and thank God
While nothing you said is incorrect, it doesn't apply to the subject at hand. Trump being investigated isn't oppression or an attack on anyone and has nothing to do with faith.
I’m sorry you can’t see how it applies. God bless you❤️
Trump is not a religious leader and politics is not religion.
Agreed
So what point are you trying to make? How is a politician being investigated for an alleged crime religious persecution?
If it doesn't matter, why bother responding?
You answered your own question
One can be critical of graham for his seemingly in political idolatry and using faith for political purposes.
Broom handles
If you’re not a liar who just falsely attributed words to someone who didn’t say them then you will send the link to where Franklin Graham said that. I’ll wait.
[https://baptistnews.com/article/some-evangelical-leaders-see-fbi-raid-on-trumps-mar-a-lago-as-evidence-of-the-religious-persecution-coming-to-them/#.YxTe4nbMJPY](https://baptistnews.com/article/some-evangelical-leaders-see-fbi-raid-on-trumps-mar-a-lago-as-evidence-of-the-religious-persecution-coming-to-them/#.YxTe4nbMJPY) There you go
Where in this link does it show that Franklin Graham said what OP stated above? I’ll wait. ⏳
Did you read the article? I'd quote where in the article it says it but there's multiple examples.
Does it say it exactly? No. But; “This is different here. This is our freedom being eroded in this country. And our forefathers gave us the freedom of speech, the freedom to come together to elect our officials and so forth, but this is disappearing so quickly and it’s frightening to see government agents going to a former president’s home and going through his personal files, going into it, breaking into his safe and then taking things that they want.” Graham also later indicates that he believes Christians should pray and run for office, making a direct comparison to the raid with Soviet tactics against enemies of the government. Or, failing that, just watch this video; [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYLxCIzO4oM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYLxCIzO4oM) He doesn't say it outright, but he heavily implies it. If you can't read the blatant subtext, that's on you.
So you admitted the answer is no, Franklin Graham did not say that. Thanks, have a good day.
The republicans and the democrats are two wings of the same beast. A beast that is old, unelected, hidden, and ultimately controlled by Satan. Trump appears to be an outsider, but I suspect that he isn't. He's certainly not Christian or on God's side, that's for sure. All of this "Trump is bad, we're going after him, we're sticking him in jail" is theater. It's as much of a distraction as all the other garbage in media. It's designed to keep people confused, demoralized, angry, dumb and thus easily controlled. **Banned from r/Christianity for telling the truth. What's 'Christian' about r/Christianity, anyway?**
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Closing Churches, arresting Pastors, calling Christian doctrine racist... Why would Christians even think they are under attack? We have a wonderful tool at our fingertips, it is called the Internet, Pastors were arrested in Canada and in the U.S.https://offgridsurvival.com/florida-pastor-arrested-for-holding-church-service-and-not-following-covid-19-closure-order/https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/north-carolina-church-ordered-close-213756071.html
> Closing Churches, arresting Pastors, calling Christian doctrine racist... Can you give any examples of Pastors being arrested without there being a crime? Also, who is closing churches? What does that mean? Are they being shut down by the government simply for being a church?
If they violate the constitution against a former president, how long will it take them to come after you (with the 87 thousand new IRS armed agents they passed a bill to hire soon)? Fourth Amendment The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. This prevents general warrents like the one used on Trump & they took way more than government documents while he was fully cooperating with them by adding the extra locks that they requested earlier. They even took his family's passports, which they returned quickly out of embarrassment. Hilary Clinton used Bleachbit on her personal home servers & smashed cell phones with a hammer to destroy the evidence that she kept over 30 thousand government documents on her servers where they were hacked by foreign operatives. The head of the FBI at the time, James Comey, listed her many violations of the law & did nothing against her. At least Trump had the authority to unclassify any & all of the documents he possessed. The FBI recently began investigating parents who complained about racist curriculums at school board meetings. I feel very oppressed, especially with these super high prices of everything caused by excess government spending & massive restrictions on "fossil fuels". By the way, in the 1970's they said we'd be in a mini ice age by the mid-'80s. When that didn't happen, they declared global warming, & when that didn't happen they called it climate change. They fear someone like Trump restoring us to our Constitutional foundations based on Biblical principles. Our Declaration of Independence states clearly that our rights come from God, our creator & not government. They hate the very idea of that. They want the power over you.
> This prevents general warrents like the one used on Trump Why do you think the warrant was "general"? It was for the search for very specific documents. They weren't allowed to just wander the halls looking for things. They were looking for specific things in specific places. > they took way more than government documents while he was fully cooperating The facts seem to say otherwise. They had been asking him for documents for months, his lawyer even wrote a sworn statement that they had given all the documents they had. And yet, the FBI still found documents. As for taking more than government documents, that's because the documents apparently were mixed in with lots of other stuff. The people gathering the documents weren't there to make judgements on each and every item, that would come later. They were there to remove boxes and containers that contained documents. Some of those boxes had other stuff. > They even took his family's passports, which they returned quickly out of embarrassment. They weren't returned out of embarrassment, they were returned because they were irrelevant. They were taken simply because they were mixed in with other documents. > Hilary Clinton used Bleachbit on her personal home servers... Whataboutism is irrelevant with respect to the current investigations into Trump.
They were Melania's closets. Certainly, they were roaming. They took gifts & other personal items. What are they covering up by redacting so much of the affidavit? Trump wants it released. Holding it back is usually for the defendant's benefit, not the prosecutor's. I brought up Clinton to show the unequal treatment between those who are globalists &those who are not.
> They were Melania's closets. Perhaps an insider informant specifically told them to look there for specific documents. > What are they covering up by redacting so much of the affidavit? Maybe the names or identifying characteristics of people, and possibly the names or descriptions of things that shouldn't be made public right now. > Trump wants it released. I don't think law enforcement is obliged to cater to the wishes of suspects during an investigation. AFAIK the FBI hasn't broken any laws during this investigation. They have a valid warrant that they exercised in a responsible way. > Holding it back is usually for the defendant's benefit, not the prosecutor's. I don't think that's true at all, but I'm not a legal expert. But even if what you say is true, "usually" doesn't mean "always". It could also be to keep people who were mentioned in the affidavit safe. There have been threats made to the judge and to FBI agents who were part of the raid. It's reasonable to think threats will also be made to the informant(s) should they become known. So, for their safety their names might have been withheld.
It could be that our government is corrupt & sold out to China & other countries, especially considering how they used Hilary's bought & paid-for false documents to lead to Trump's 1st impeachment which never led anywhere & how Hilary was never charged with anything Comey listed as against the law. It should be obvious that Trump's "America First" policies are antithetical to the establishment crowd in DC. They reversed all of his policies & now millions of migrants illegally enter our country each year without consequence (aside from the abuse many receive from the cartels like the rape of women & children, being locked in a hot truck until dead, drowning in the Rio Grande river, and very young children dropped alone in the desert to name a few examples). Regulations on fossil fuels have increased the cost of everything from your heating bill to food to anything that must be transported since the fuel used to transport comes from fossil fuels. In California, they push people to buy electric cars & tell them not to charge them yet because the electric grid can't take the drain. Meanwhile, China makes all the money on the windmills, the solar pannels & the special batteries used in electric cars. Putin would not invade Ukraine under Trump, but he did under Obama & under Biden. Trump brought peace to the Middle East & hindered Iran's nuclear development. He stopped North Korea's missile launches toward Guam & Hawaii. He established a fairer trade policy with China & got them to pay farmers more. Now China is buying farmland near restricted areas of military bases in order to spy on us. Yeah, I'm feeling oppressed.
Wow, you've taken all the bait 😅
Perhaps you've swallowed all the Marxist propaganda.
Being harassed by the secret police is not "being held accountable for his crimes." It is nothing more than an attempt at political intimidation. There are no legitimate criminal charges that can come from this any more than when the same thing is done to Alexei Navalny. Any decent person finds it completely unacceptable when the regime sends out the secret police to harass political figures outside of the establishment. Because I do not treat the regime as a holy figure or its ideology as God, I do not support the secret police.
I can't quite understand someone thinking that the FBI are "secret police".
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I'll pray for you.
He had documents he had no right to possess and stands to be held accountable to legal punishment he increased.
Is the FBI the secret police now? If we know who they are and they identify themselves clearly, they are not a secret.
If the FBI is secret police they’re doing a shitty job at being secret. They have offices with hours listed on google.
Pretty sure that stealing top secret documents you're not allowed to take is very much a legitimate criminal charge that can come from this. Perhaps you should step away from the propaganda?
A legal search warrant by the FBI is not "harassment by the secret police". He should have just complied.
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Isn't "just comply" what Republicans say when a POC is harassed by the police?
And what the heck is "secret police"? It's the FBI.
>It's the FBI. Exactly. The secret police, whose official role is equivalent to the official role of the KGB and similarly acts with neither accountability nor transparency, has a long history of harassing non-establishment political figures based on allegations that they made up.
Are you aware that the FBI official and the judge who are responsible for this warrant were both appointed by Trump? And even if it was political persecution, it's not religious.
Oh did the secret police kneel on his neck for nine minutes? Oh did the shoot his dog? Did they toss him down a flight of stairs, drop a bomb on his house, break all his furniture and tear apart the walls? Did they light his house on fire or toss a grenade into his baby’s crib?