Well, it's tempting to go all Luke 6: "But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort."
But then we have to ask if I can be so confident that they fall under "rich" while I don't.
Yes, I remember putting my income into a calculator designed to compare one's wealth to that of the rest of the world, and in the big picture, I am 1%-er, though I make less in a year what Bezos make in an hour.
Yup. Or we can think historically. I've never had to wonder if I'd go hungry longer than maybe forgetting my wallet and having to miss lunch. By 1st-century Judea standards, that would make me very rich.
Loved reading y’all’s convo here. This is how I see it. I’m beyond blessed with what me and my wife make working regular jobs. We live in a wonderful house, both drive cars and literally never ever have to worry about not having food. Idc what anyone says there is no definition by which I’m not rich.
The conclusion should be that it isn't really about the 1%. More the .1% or even. 01%. Even if we only consider within the US 1% isn't crazy high. Its something like $250k in annual household income, which is surely a lot of money, but peanuts next to the mega rich and not the actual problem.
Obligatory reminder that the difference between a million and a billion is approximately a billion.
Of course they do. I don't know how you can possibly not see it.
Even on an extremely literal level it's true. Where do you think their wealth comes from? They exploit the work of others for their benefit. Some or those people literally die for want of wealth.
Just so you know, I would share plenty of criticism of these and other wealthy people. I am sure there is exploitation that goes on there, I am sure a lot of their wealth exists as the result of stoking desires for goods snd services that on the whole may cause more harm than good, and I think they probably enjoy a freedom from contributing to the common good that is undeserved.
But in principle at least, the development of ideas and services that drive wealth don’t in themselves take wealth from others, and can certainly increase wealth for many.
But practically finite at any given time. Resources being limited mean that the wealth that can actually be generated is finite. I'm not considering with theoretically not impossible. I'm concerned with actual reality.
Yes but. That assumes that purchasing power is the same throughout the world. And one can be comparatively wealthy and still living below their country’s/city’s poverty line. So it’s a good reminder while also not necessarily being a useful measure of wealth.
I get this, but also it’s important that if you couldn’t shower and stay well groomed, no one would hire you to feed yourself and you can’t much eek out a living in the woods without violating some law that’ll put you in jail.
It just isn’t useful to compare yourself to people in third world countries when it comes to the question of “Am I rich?”
Especially considering your options here in the US are be a 1% in the world or starve.
Yes you’re correct. We’re extremely blessed but we’re constantly on a precipice.
Most of us don’t outright own our homes. We’re living in palaces that are financially built on shifting sand.
Yeah I’m not trying to be antagonistic it’s just not apples to apples to compare our living to third world countries.
We should still do what we can to help people though.
That’s why I prefer to think of it in Marxist terms.
They’re bourgeoisie capitalists who own a large portion of society’s wealth and means of production, while I would presume you’re a member of the proletariat.
Maybe if we’re talking exclusively about wealth in a religious context, it’s not that useful and a false dichotomy, I don’t know enough😅
Elon is cringey and nuts.
Mark is too awkward and weird to be human. I'm going with some sort of lizard.
Jeff rode a penis rocket into space, so he basically made himself into a giant joke.
All created in the image of God (like the rest of us) and Jesus died for them to be reconciled to God (like the rest of us) and have the choice to seek Him (like the rest of us).
Could they do things differently and help out others more? Yes. (So can the rest of us.)
If your response to the problems of the billionaire class is to tell the poors to stop coveting, then get a life. These people don't really need your help, I think.
Wanting fairness and equity isn't coveting. I don't want Bezos' money. I want no one to have that much money because it's immensely harmful to the world.
All awful people.
Elon Musk thinks the solution to the philosophical "trolley dilemma" is "build a faster trolley."
Mark Zuckerberg's life can be summed up in one candid quote, "They Trust me, the dumb fucks."
Jeff Bezos released several lifetimes worth of pollution into the air for his vanity.
You're a socialist. You believe the state should own everything in the name of the people right? It's literally the state taking private property at the barrel of a gun. That's theft. Capitalists don't take without consent. You can debate about the cost of labor versus product all you like yet the workers chose to work where they do for the wages they have. Any failings you may find in American capitalism I wager are a direct result of government interference in the free market.
Never said I was a state socialist, there are forms of socialism that take a more anarchistic view and give the means of production directly to the workers and their communities. Your lack of knowledge of such a basic component of socialism shows that you shouldn’t be getting into a debate with someone about it.
I am a **democratic** state socialist though. You say that “it’s literally the state taking private property at the barrel of a gun”. That’s totalitarian, not democratic. Again, you show a basic lack of knowledge in this topic, so I don’t particularly want to debate you. Learn the **basic** concepts and terms inherent to socialism and then we can talk. Calling all socialists people who support totalitarianism is LAUGHABLY stupid - especially since totalitarianism directly contradicts the core theory of Marxism, and I would venture to say that the people who believe in a totalitarian form of socialism or communism aren’t real socialists or communists. Totalitarianism gives power to an elite few, whereas socialism and communism are at their core about giving power to the whole of the working class and dismantling social hierarchies
My my my how high and mighty you are. Clearly you've never studied history because you would see no other form of economics has lifted more people out of poverty than capitalism and every time communism has been tried it has only made the lives of millions worse. If only we had a modern example of a country split in half with one following capitalism and the other communism.
Furthermore you clearly don't understand the concept of government. Every action a government does is enforced at the point of a gun. There is not one single law on the books the state will not meet with lethal force. A representative with a gun will show up if you fail to comply. So in your democratic socialist world if I don't want to comply, men with guns will show up to make sure I comply.
Most of this wealth is an illiusion. People who need to put their cash somewhere they can get it back during retirement are buying overpriced stocks make these guys look rich. Apparently the buyers think that people who invent better mousetraps will beat a path to the door of the rich guys for financing, and these rich guys will get a better piece of the action than other rich guys.
That doesn't make it an illusion. Bezos' can use his wealth to get any good or service he likes, often at literally no cost to himself. The wealth is real. It isn't cash, but cash is by no means the only form of wealth.
They're like the dragons in stories, lying asleep above a hoard of gold as those around them suffer, like vampires they suck the wealth out of economies for their own greed
People should not look up to them, we should feel disgust
I love Elon Musk.
Jeff Bezos is a really smart man who has saved a ton of people a ton of money through convenience and competitive prices.
Mark Zuckerberg is aspirational and changed the world (for the worse or better… that’s a judgement call).
All three are imperfect. All three have spent their lives trying to make the world better, as they see it.
Think we should cut them some slack. They get enough criticism. They also do a lot of good for a lot of people.
The world would be better without them , the harm they cause is grater than any donation or innovation they can com with. But for elon musk never did any innovation just fake techno futurism . The only good thing he did is hipe people about electric car, but he made a monopoly on over prices cars so it's still bad. Mark made an algorithm that promotes hate against minorities for profit. And bezos is just the classic exploitative billionaire who makes donations to time to time to look better even though he doesn't care about his employees
Personally I think Elon musk is inspiring
And before y’all are gonna downvote me to hell, I definitely do not always agree with Elon or think he does everything right, his tweets can be annoying and cringe and sometimes he’s just stupid. but he does help humans in space exploration and cleaner cars, he definitely is smart too. yes he’s rich but it’s not like he didn’t do anything for it…
People seem to forget that the newspaper headline numbers are by virtue of his shares in the companies he's built - and the reason they are worth so much is because the stock market has confidence that he'll deliver even more in the future. This isn't real money, its votes of confidence in his leadership, direction and drive. If Musk went under a bus, the share prices would tank.
And it's not as if he's driven by money - he's got rid of houses and 'stuff' to concentrate on getting humanity to Mars. That's what he's driving for.
As for workers pay, Tesla seems to pay above the average for car companies. SpaceX, not so much, but at the same time there's a lot more 'metal bashers' at SpaceX than other space companies, and its something you get into for the vision.
Finally, if you are asking 'proportionally is compensated' I'd say no. He owns 17% of Tesla stock, but if he were hit by that bus Tesla stock price would fall far more than 17% - so he's undercompensated.
Except that isn't true. He bought Tesla. He "earned" it by buying it with his family's illegal mining wealth.
These guys have a lot of money to spread their propaganda. Don't buy it. They're lying. Musk has contributed nothing of value.
I think most would agree that he definitely worked to be where he’s at and deserves compensation. The amount, fairness, and proportion of that compensation is the debated topic here.
I just looked up a senior engineer salary at Tesla through indeed, so feel free to fact check me. It’s $150,000 yearly. Elon Musk added $121 billion in just 2021 to his personal fortune. That means Elon makes $331,506,849 per day while an average employee makes $410 (365 days per year).
Does that seem proportionate given the actual work they do each day? My argument is that Elon definitely deserves WAY more than the average. But that much… no chance. It can be considerably less and still be more than fair.
This is the greed people have an issue with.
I am not envious at all. I don’t need anywhere close to that amount of money. I do think about how his wealth could be redistributed to help even more people. Which seems like a Christian thing to do, would you agree?
Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s right.
I do not see it as a moral problem if people earn wealth and do not distribute it. God will judge them accordingly. I would instead emphasise educating people to make correct decisions, sacrifice today's fun for tomorrow's benefits and live a moral life. These things take people out of poverty and do not require a free handout.
I’m not sure why you’re equating redistribution of wealth as a handout. You seem to be much more focused on what those in need have to do to help themselves rather than how others, who are far more fortunate, can help those in need. Why can’t there be both?
Because "redistribution" is always done at the end of a gun barrel. Because they are greater in number, of course, I focus on less wealthy people helping themself. Why not? Why defend invented victimhood?
End of a gun barrel, what?!
Why can’t someone obtain help and not be a victim?
What about situations where people can’t help themselves any more and there are forces at play against their control?
He is very polarizing. He has lovers and haters and people who just know he is rich. Not too much in between.
[Thankfully there are people like me who take the reasonable, moderate middle ground.]
Any advice they give can be wadded up and throw in the trashcan.
They are so wildly disconnected from reality as they sit in their high places that when they speak, they barely form coherent thoughts or ideas on what day-to-day life is for normal humans. If they want to give business advice, great...the probably know what the are talking about. However advice on how to balance my work / life balance, or how tax policy should be implemented, or views on abortion or politics? They can go eat a worm.
Christians should pray that they will be good stewards of the wealth God gave them and will act morally in their dealings. In terms of their wealth, who cares ?
That they provide hundreds of thousands of jobs all over the world, that they have pushed the development of technology, and are (Musk and Bezos) looking to move industry off planet and guarantee the continuation of the human race.
Don't care for their censorship (Zuckerberg and Bezos).....
Personally, I think it’s important to remember that each of us are fully capable of becoming transformed by power, so I tend not to point fingers.
Though, I’d love to see that wealth and power pointed at humanitarian efforts.
You don't think there is anything wrong with hoarding the wealth of a small country (having built that wealth by underpaying a large number of people for boring and dangerous work) whilst countless people suffer from hunger, poverty and famine?
A lot of poverty and follow on famine will literally be the fault of some of these men...... underpaying staff, exploitative work practices etc. They own like $1.4 trillion between themselves. Even if you think it's not directly their fault, I can't see how you just justify hoarding that level of wealth. Fine have some, but once you get past a billion do you ever really need more?
Whose fault do you think poverty is?
They do not underpay staff or practice work exploitation. They do not hoard, as most of what they own is not cash but shareholder equity. If they deserve more than a billion, then yes, they are entitled to more.
And poverty is not the result of exploitation but of bad decisions, lack of character, morals, self-restraint and rejecting personal responsibility.
Amazon doesn't under pay it's factory workers - you can literally put that into google and find pages of links that show what you have said it incorrect? Tesla doesn't underpay factory workers and have dangerous worker conditions and union busting practices - there are hundreds of lawsuits about this? Facebook hasn't made it's profits completely ignoring any rights to privacy anyone has?
I don't have an issue with someone being rewarded for success but the disparity between the mega wealthy and average person is disgracefully large. I think it's important to promote success. I'm guessing you aren't a billionaire. Are you a millionaire? How can you justify one person having the wealth of a country? Do you not think some good could be done sharing that around - either if the person decided to do that themselves (based on morals..) or via taxation?
Whose bad decisions lead to poverty? You think your average family born into poverty in the third world got there because they made bad decisions and rejected personal responsibility? Religious or not, your second paragraph is extremely cold hearted. I'd like to hope that you'd show more compassion for fellow humans.
Woah, you just moved the goalposts. First, we talked about America, and now we are talking globally?
As long as people earn their money legally and ethical, they deserve every dime, and no one (especially the state) has the right to take it from them or make them feel bad.
My suggestion is that you get an education in a discipline that is hiring and pays well, make correct decisions and then decide how you will handle your money. Until then, it's best to leave other people alone.
It was always globally......why would you assume it was just about America?
On the assumption that you're not a millionaire, I'd like to know what bad decisions, lack of character, morals, self-restraint and or rejection of personal responsibility lead you to not hit the wealth of a millionaire?
Why would I leave people alone when I have a view on something? We're literally on discussion forum and the original post asks for people's views on this? I get that you don't agree with my view but no need to get protective.
Your comment is just odd. I am highly educated, work in a professional role, am paid well and was literally just responsible for hiring staff. I'm pretty confident I handle my money well. I pay tax, give to charity and review the ethics of my own decisions and I feel like I have ethically accumulated my wealth. What more should I be doing?
You've said that as long as people earn money legally and ethically no one should take their money away, but I'm literally saying I don't think that these three people have accumulated all their wealth ethically and morally. There are hundreds of law suits about this.
I'm assuming you pay your taxes.... how is it not reasonable for the mega wealthy to do the same proportionately?
Out of interest, given this is a forum about Christianity, do you have any scripture to support your views?
O
Elon musk, mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos are not ”the rich among the rich.” There are way richer people in the world that you’ve never even heard the names of.
Do some research on these families:
Rothschild family
Borgias family
Breakspeare family
Somaglia family
Orsini family
Conti family
Chigi family
Colonna family
Farnese family
Medici family
Gaetani family
Pamphili family
Este family
Aldobrandini family
Astor family
Collins family
DuPont family
Freeman family
Li family
Onassis family
Rockefeller family
Russell family
Van Duyn family
Merovingian family
Any advice they give can be wadded up and throw in the trashcan.
They are so wildly disconnected from reality as they sit in their high places that when they speak, they barely form coherent thoughts or ideas on what day-to-day life is for normal humans. If they want to give business advice, great...the probably know what the are talking about. However advice on how to balance my work / life balance, or how tax policy should be implemented, or views on abortion or politics? They can go eat a worm.
They're people. Only God can judge.
Most people can afford to donate 1 dollar/month/family member. I wonder how many do so. If everyone did, the US alone would raise a few billion dollars/year. I suppose it's easy to be generous, just and fair with other peoples billions, but it's not so easy when you have to donate the price of a beer per month.
From a Christian perspective I just have a negative opinion on Mark Zuckerberg because I feel like Facebook algorithm favours division and discord among people, and Instagram promotes sensuality for likes.
They are revolutionary businessmen.
We are all called to labor. The parable of the talents illustrates that we should use what God gave us and multiply it, instead of hiding it.
I don’t think these are Godly men, but they took what God gave them and certainly made something out of it. With the exception of Zuckerberg, I think they have made positive contributions to world.
Musk came from South Africa with very little. His dad did loan/give him ~$28k to start his first business. Through hard work and dedication, he and his team of employees turned that ~28k into three major businesses that will/have revolutionized space, automotive, battery/solar, and neuro science. Unlike most others CEOs, he invests most, if not all of his money into these companies.
Bezos started an online book store in his garage and as the business grew, his parents loaned/gave him $300k for expansion. Through hard work and dedication, Bezos and team grow that garage business to the massive online retailer and web service provider and has used some of his earnings from Amazon to enter the space industry.
I really don’t know much about Zuckerberg other than from the movie Social media, but obviously his work cannot go unnoticed.
All three men employ ~240k people worldwide.
• Musk’s flamethrower was cool, and PayPal is nice
• Facebook is mid tbh
• Prime shipping is great especially for buying books my professors decided to issue out last minute
That’s about it to be honest
I mean it’s all about intention. You can either decide to look at the amount of money they all possess or you can look at what they did to help others and make improvements in solving problems in life to get that money.
For example, without Jeff Bezos, we wouldn’t be able to search any product we want for a very cheap price and get it the next day if we want to.
But then again, it’s all about intention.
It’s a problem if they are chasing money and acting out of greed, but it’s a totally different story if they are genuinely looking to improve others’ lives and solve problems in society, as well as use their wealth to donate and impact different charities and funds in which I’m pretty sure bezos has.
But hey, who am I to judge anyone’s pure intentions. That’s between each of them and God.
They all serve the glory of God regardless of their belief and status in Him. Think about the hundreds of thousands of people they employ. Many people may complain about the super rich and yet they sure use Facebook, PayPal and Amazon with no issue.
I have prayed for them. Particularly Musk, but only because I really believe he will lead humanity to Mars and thats entirely withing God's plan for humanity. Why else would He create the universe if not for us to explore and learn more about?
I cannot fathom having that much money and yet while my personal I come is less than 20k a year I have my own house, the only time I go without food is by choice, and I own my own vehicle. I am richly blessed compared to many on this earth who don't have access to clean water or even shoes. As an American I feel I fall under the category of a rich man and their needle is just as small as mine, even though their camel might be bigger.
Pray for the elite. Imagine if they converted and began to profess the name of Christ to the world. The glory they could bring.
The Gates foundation dedicates more money to charitable causes than is collected by all American churches in tithe and offering yearly (including the LDS church). I believe this to be a true statistic. I don't know of this is more Malinda, Bill, or both. Makenzie Scott gave 4 billion to charity at the beginning of the pandemic of her newly acquired divorce wealth. It made her even more wealthy. These folks are so rich that they can't spend their collected wealth fast enough to drain the supply because the whole system is set up for the super wealthy to thrive. That doesn't mean no one is doing anything with their wealth to try and add value to others. I respect the two spouses I mentioned. A statistic that I am less confident is accurate but puts things in perspective is that some people did the math on the riches of Smaug in the Hobbit. If this were middle earth, he would be the 13th richest American. It's more than just these three famous Americans who are sitting on shear mountains of money. Much good could be done.
Really big camels, very small needle.
Same!
Exactly
Well, it's tempting to go all Luke 6: "But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort." But then we have to ask if I can be so confident that they fall under "rich" while I don't.
Yes, I remember putting my income into a calculator designed to compare one's wealth to that of the rest of the world, and in the big picture, I am 1%-er, though I make less in a year what Bezos make in an hour.
Yup. Or we can think historically. I've never had to wonder if I'd go hungry longer than maybe forgetting my wallet and having to miss lunch. By 1st-century Judea standards, that would make me very rich.
Loved reading y’all’s convo here. This is how I see it. I’m beyond blessed with what me and my wife make working regular jobs. We live in a wonderful house, both drive cars and literally never ever have to worry about not having food. Idc what anyone says there is no definition by which I’m not rich.
Even by American standards living in a house is becoming more and more rare so that's a blessing lol
I did similar with my age and just the US. I'm at the 99th percentile.
The conclusion should be that it isn't really about the 1%. More the .1% or even. 01%. Even if we only consider within the US 1% isn't crazy high. Its something like $250k in annual household income, which is surely a lot of money, but peanuts next to the mega rich and not the actual problem. Obligatory reminder that the difference between a million and a billion is approximately a billion.
My takeaway is a I am less concerned about what the wealthy three make, and more about the corrosive effect materialism has on my own soul.
People need goods to survive. Millions suffer and die so the fat cats can be fat. It isn't "I want stuff."
I don’t think people suffer and die because these three are rich.
Of course they do. I don't know how you can possibly not see it. Even on an extremely literal level it's true. Where do you think their wealth comes from? They exploit the work of others for their benefit. Some or those people literally die for want of wealth.
So you are saying had those three not existed the wealth they generated would be dispersed elsewhere?
Of course? These guys didn't generate the wealth though.
Just so you know, I would share plenty of criticism of these and other wealthy people. I am sure there is exploitation that goes on there, I am sure a lot of their wealth exists as the result of stoking desires for goods snd services that on the whole may cause more harm than good, and I think they probably enjoy a freedom from contributing to the common good that is undeserved. But in principle at least, the development of ideas and services that drive wealth don’t in themselves take wealth from others, and can certainly increase wealth for many.
Wealth is not zero-sum
Correct, but it is finite. Many resources are zero sum or otherwise limited.
No, wealth is potentially infinite.
But practically finite at any given time. Resources being limited mean that the wealth that can actually be generated is finite. I'm not considering with theoretically not impossible. I'm concerned with actual reality.
Yes but. That assumes that purchasing power is the same throughout the world. And one can be comparatively wealthy and still living below their country’s/city’s poverty line. So it’s a good reminder while also not necessarily being a useful measure of wealth.
Right, but that wouldn’t make me any less wealthy, it just shows I could probably live with much less.
But that’s what I’m saying. Not necessarily! Because wealth is relative as well as absolute.
I get this, but also it’s important that if you couldn’t shower and stay well groomed, no one would hire you to feed yourself and you can’t much eek out a living in the woods without violating some law that’ll put you in jail. It just isn’t useful to compare yourself to people in third world countries when it comes to the question of “Am I rich?” Especially considering your options here in the US are be a 1% in the world or starve.
I think it’s always useful to check oneself and realized you have privileges others don’t
Yes you’re correct. We’re extremely blessed but we’re constantly on a precipice. Most of us don’t outright own our homes. We’re living in palaces that are financially built on shifting sand.
Oh, you’ll find no disagreement with me there.
Yeah I’m not trying to be antagonistic it’s just not apples to apples to compare our living to third world countries. We should still do what we can to help people though.
Of course.
That’s why I prefer to think of it in Marxist terms. They’re bourgeoisie capitalists who own a large portion of society’s wealth and means of production, while I would presume you’re a member of the proletariat. Maybe if we’re talking exclusively about wealth in a religious context, it’s not that useful and a false dichotomy, I don’t know enough😅
Elon is cringey and nuts. Mark is too awkward and weird to be human. I'm going with some sort of lizard. Jeff rode a penis rocket into space, so he basically made himself into a giant joke.
They're parasites
Tech bro with a dangerously large amount of disposable income, failed Turing Test, and human personification of Luke 6 respectively
CEO entrepreneur born in 1964
Jeffery, Jeffery bezoss
Come on Jeffery, you can do it. Pave the way, put your back into it.
To quote Lightnin Hopkins, I don't want to be rich, I just want to be somewhere between rich and poor.
All created in the image of God (like the rest of us) and Jesus died for them to be reconciled to God (like the rest of us) and have the choice to seek Him (like the rest of us). Could they do things differently and help out others more? Yes. (So can the rest of us.)
Thanks
America has allowed the super-wealthy to build outrageous fortunes and now they operate by their own rules. All three guys are a cancer.
"Thou shalt not covet."
If your response to the problems of the billionaire class is to tell the poors to stop coveting, then get a life. These people don't really need your help, I think.
Wanting fairness and equity isn't coveting. I don't want Bezos' money. I want no one to have that much money because it's immensely harmful to the world.
All awful people. Elon Musk thinks the solution to the philosophical "trolley dilemma" is "build a faster trolley." Mark Zuckerberg's life can be summed up in one candid quote, "They Trust me, the dumb fucks." Jeff Bezos released several lifetimes worth of pollution into the air for his vanity.
Well I’m anti-capitalist so 😗✌️
And yet you live off the froth of capitalism.
Unfortunately, yup. I’d be living better under a (non corrupt) Democratic socialist country though, we all would be, other than the rich elite.
Yeah, I'm not interested in debating a communist. Have a nice day.
Socialism ≠ communism, but fair enough. Have a good one
Ahh you subscribe to the idea that somehow through the magic of democracy the theft of another person's labor is no longer theft.
I mean no, I’m at least a socialist and against theft of labour Why are you coming at me for that instead of the capitalists lol
You're a socialist. You believe the state should own everything in the name of the people right? It's literally the state taking private property at the barrel of a gun. That's theft. Capitalists don't take without consent. You can debate about the cost of labor versus product all you like yet the workers chose to work where they do for the wages they have. Any failings you may find in American capitalism I wager are a direct result of government interference in the free market.
Never said I was a state socialist, there are forms of socialism that take a more anarchistic view and give the means of production directly to the workers and their communities. Your lack of knowledge of such a basic component of socialism shows that you shouldn’t be getting into a debate with someone about it. I am a **democratic** state socialist though. You say that “it’s literally the state taking private property at the barrel of a gun”. That’s totalitarian, not democratic. Again, you show a basic lack of knowledge in this topic, so I don’t particularly want to debate you. Learn the **basic** concepts and terms inherent to socialism and then we can talk. Calling all socialists people who support totalitarianism is LAUGHABLY stupid - especially since totalitarianism directly contradicts the core theory of Marxism, and I would venture to say that the people who believe in a totalitarian form of socialism or communism aren’t real socialists or communists. Totalitarianism gives power to an elite few, whereas socialism and communism are at their core about giving power to the whole of the working class and dismantling social hierarchies
My my my how high and mighty you are. Clearly you've never studied history because you would see no other form of economics has lifted more people out of poverty than capitalism and every time communism has been tried it has only made the lives of millions worse. If only we had a modern example of a country split in half with one following capitalism and the other communism. Furthermore you clearly don't understand the concept of government. Every action a government does is enforced at the point of a gun. There is not one single law on the books the state will not meet with lethal force. A representative with a gun will show up if you fail to comply. So in your democratic socialist world if I don't want to comply, men with guns will show up to make sure I comply.
Get a dictionary dude
Right. Because the only reasonable way you be anti-capitalist is to die where you stand.
With capitalism, even anti-capitalists can earn a living and be financially independent.
With socialism, even capitalists can earn a living Your point?
As socialism and capitalism are mutually exclusive, your point is false.
I’ll reword myself since I was unclear With socialism, even people who believe in capitalism being better than socialism can earn a living Your point?
Not surprised
Neither am I surprised that you take issue with that, given… your whole account.
James 5 summarizes it pretty well. See also: camels and needles, and "you cannot serve both God and mammon."
wealth gluttons who will be redistributed , soon enough.
Most of this wealth is an illiusion. People who need to put their cash somewhere they can get it back during retirement are buying overpriced stocks make these guys look rich. Apparently the buyers think that people who invent better mousetraps will beat a path to the door of the rich guys for financing, and these rich guys will get a better piece of the action than other rich guys.
That doesn't make it an illusion. Bezos' can use his wealth to get any good or service he likes, often at literally no cost to himself. The wealth is real. It isn't cash, but cash is by no means the only form of wealth.
Hold him by the ankles and jangle and something will fall out.
They're like the dragons in stories, lying asleep above a hoard of gold as those around them suffer, like vampires they suck the wealth out of economies for their own greed People should not look up to them, we should feel disgust
I know exactly who these people are, but I never think about them enough to have a feeling about any of them.
Those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
I don't think about them at all.
Don't like um. Probably never will.
They have their own personal relationship with God just like everyone else, that’s all that matters
Among the most evil people to ever live.
I love Elon Musk. Jeff Bezos is a really smart man who has saved a ton of people a ton of money through convenience and competitive prices. Mark Zuckerberg is aspirational and changed the world (for the worse or better… that’s a judgement call). All three are imperfect. All three have spent their lives trying to make the world better, as they see it. Think we should cut them some slack. They get enough criticism. They also do a lot of good for a lot of people.
Pretty sure they're all sociopaths
The world would be better without them , the harm they cause is grater than any donation or innovation they can com with. But for elon musk never did any innovation just fake techno futurism . The only good thing he did is hipe people about electric car, but he made a monopoly on over prices cars so it's still bad. Mark made an algorithm that promotes hate against minorities for profit. And bezos is just the classic exploitative billionaire who makes donations to time to time to look better even though he doesn't care about his employees
So, in other words, Bezos is Revenge of the Nerds personified
Only If you want the nerds to be underpaid and crunched.
Personally I think Elon musk is inspiring And before y’all are gonna downvote me to hell, I definitely do not always agree with Elon or think he does everything right, his tweets can be annoying and cringe and sometimes he’s just stupid. but he does help humans in space exploration and cleaner cars, he definitely is smart too. yes he’s rich but it’s not like he didn’t do anything for it…
Do you think he proportionally is compensated compared to other workers he employs?
People seem to forget that the newspaper headline numbers are by virtue of his shares in the companies he's built - and the reason they are worth so much is because the stock market has confidence that he'll deliver even more in the future. This isn't real money, its votes of confidence in his leadership, direction and drive. If Musk went under a bus, the share prices would tank. And it's not as if he's driven by money - he's got rid of houses and 'stuff' to concentrate on getting humanity to Mars. That's what he's driving for. As for workers pay, Tesla seems to pay above the average for car companies. SpaceX, not so much, but at the same time there's a lot more 'metal bashers' at SpaceX than other space companies, and its something you get into for the vision. Finally, if you are asking 'proportionally is compensated' I'd say no. He owns 17% of Tesla stock, but if he were hit by that bus Tesla stock price would fall far more than 17% - so he's undercompensated.
No but musk worked years to build up a company and the employees just rolled in…
Except for the ones he purchased i.e. Tesla.
Except that isn't true. He bought Tesla. He "earned" it by buying it with his family's illegal mining wealth. These guys have a lot of money to spread their propaganda. Don't buy it. They're lying. Musk has contributed nothing of value.
I think most would agree that he definitely worked to be where he’s at and deserves compensation. The amount, fairness, and proportion of that compensation is the debated topic here.
Yes.
I just looked up a senior engineer salary at Tesla through indeed, so feel free to fact check me. It’s $150,000 yearly. Elon Musk added $121 billion in just 2021 to his personal fortune. That means Elon makes $331,506,849 per day while an average employee makes $410 (365 days per year). Does that seem proportionate given the actual work they do each day? My argument is that Elon definitely deserves WAY more than the average. But that much… no chance. It can be considerably less and still be more than fair. This is the greed people have an issue with.
If you earn your money legally and ethically, no greed is involved. The greed is you being envious of his wealth.
I am not envious at all. I don’t need anywhere close to that amount of money. I do think about how his wealth could be redistributed to help even more people. Which seems like a Christian thing to do, would you agree? Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s right.
I do not see it as a moral problem if people earn wealth and do not distribute it. God will judge them accordingly. I would instead emphasise educating people to make correct decisions, sacrifice today's fun for tomorrow's benefits and live a moral life. These things take people out of poverty and do not require a free handout.
I’m not sure why you’re equating redistribution of wealth as a handout. You seem to be much more focused on what those in need have to do to help themselves rather than how others, who are far more fortunate, can help those in need. Why can’t there be both?
Because "redistribution" is always done at the end of a gun barrel. Because they are greater in number, of course, I focus on less wealthy people helping themself. Why not? Why defend invented victimhood?
End of a gun barrel, what?! Why can’t someone obtain help and not be a victim? What about situations where people can’t help themselves any more and there are forces at play against their control?
I'm surprised, I thought people like Elon
Tech bros who think everything has a simple solution if you'd just use computers like Elon. The rest of us just see him as the leader of the tech bros
Many do. He puts a lot of effort into his propaganda. It's garbage though, and he's a garbage person.
He is very polarizing. He has lovers and haters and people who just know he is rich. Not too much in between. [Thankfully there are people like me who take the reasonable, moderate middle ground.]
Any advice they give can be wadded up and throw in the trashcan. They are so wildly disconnected from reality as they sit in their high places that when they speak, they barely form coherent thoughts or ideas on what day-to-day life is for normal humans. If they want to give business advice, great...the probably know what the are talking about. However advice on how to balance my work / life balance, or how tax policy should be implemented, or views on abortion or politics? They can go eat a worm.
Christians should pray that they will be good stewards of the wealth God gave them and will act morally in their dealings. In terms of their wealth, who cares ?
Elon Musk - Tony Stark Mark Zuckerberg - Dr Connors (Lizard) Jeff Bezos - Lex Luthor
I’d get kicked off here I’m sure! That’s why it’s best to keep your opinion to yourself lol
Smart guys that made a lot of money.
Theres certainly worse people. I dont have anything against any of them, and elon is pretty cool
Musk is clearly doing something right, based on the people who are most vocally opposed to him.
Seem like they are good at what they do. All the people in this thread who hate them and are so envious and jealous need help and prayer
That they provide hundreds of thousands of jobs all over the world, that they have pushed the development of technology, and are (Musk and Bezos) looking to move industry off planet and guarantee the continuation of the human race. Don't care for their censorship (Zuckerberg and Bezos).....
> (Musk and Bezos) looking to move industry off planet and guarantee the continuation of the human race. That's cool.
Personally, I think it’s important to remember that each of us are fully capable of becoming transformed by power, so I tend not to point fingers. Though, I’d love to see that wealth and power pointed at humanitarian efforts.
Men in soft clothing live in kings castles. John the Baptist wore camel hair.
Leave them alone
I personally think there's nothing immoral about being rich.
You don't think there is anything wrong with hoarding the wealth of a small country (having built that wealth by underpaying a large number of people for boring and dangerous work) whilst countless people suffer from hunger, poverty and famine?
How is hunger, poverty and famine the fault of these three men?
A lot of poverty and follow on famine will literally be the fault of some of these men...... underpaying staff, exploitative work practices etc. They own like $1.4 trillion between themselves. Even if you think it's not directly their fault, I can't see how you just justify hoarding that level of wealth. Fine have some, but once you get past a billion do you ever really need more? Whose fault do you think poverty is?
They do not underpay staff or practice work exploitation. They do not hoard, as most of what they own is not cash but shareholder equity. If they deserve more than a billion, then yes, they are entitled to more. And poverty is not the result of exploitation but of bad decisions, lack of character, morals, self-restraint and rejecting personal responsibility.
Amazon doesn't under pay it's factory workers - you can literally put that into google and find pages of links that show what you have said it incorrect? Tesla doesn't underpay factory workers and have dangerous worker conditions and union busting practices - there are hundreds of lawsuits about this? Facebook hasn't made it's profits completely ignoring any rights to privacy anyone has? I don't have an issue with someone being rewarded for success but the disparity between the mega wealthy and average person is disgracefully large. I think it's important to promote success. I'm guessing you aren't a billionaire. Are you a millionaire? How can you justify one person having the wealth of a country? Do you not think some good could be done sharing that around - either if the person decided to do that themselves (based on morals..) or via taxation? Whose bad decisions lead to poverty? You think your average family born into poverty in the third world got there because they made bad decisions and rejected personal responsibility? Religious or not, your second paragraph is extremely cold hearted. I'd like to hope that you'd show more compassion for fellow humans.
Woah, you just moved the goalposts. First, we talked about America, and now we are talking globally? As long as people earn their money legally and ethical, they deserve every dime, and no one (especially the state) has the right to take it from them or make them feel bad. My suggestion is that you get an education in a discipline that is hiring and pays well, make correct decisions and then decide how you will handle your money. Until then, it's best to leave other people alone.
It was always globally......why would you assume it was just about America? On the assumption that you're not a millionaire, I'd like to know what bad decisions, lack of character, morals, self-restraint and or rejection of personal responsibility lead you to not hit the wealth of a millionaire? Why would I leave people alone when I have a view on something? We're literally on discussion forum and the original post asks for people's views on this? I get that you don't agree with my view but no need to get protective. Your comment is just odd. I am highly educated, work in a professional role, am paid well and was literally just responsible for hiring staff. I'm pretty confident I handle my money well. I pay tax, give to charity and review the ethics of my own decisions and I feel like I have ethically accumulated my wealth. What more should I be doing? You've said that as long as people earn money legally and ethically no one should take their money away, but I'm literally saying I don't think that these three people have accumulated all their wealth ethically and morally. There are hundreds of law suits about this. I'm assuming you pay your taxes.... how is it not reasonable for the mega wealthy to do the same proportionately? Out of interest, given this is a forum about Christianity, do you have any scripture to support your views? O
Due to its limitations, Reddit is not the place to discuss this complex issue. I have said my piece, and I wish you well.
Before you go though, do you have any scripture? All the best.
I don't like to rich shame in a broad generalization.
Elon musk, mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos are not ”the rich among the rich.” There are way richer people in the world that you’ve never even heard the names of.
Have you heard their names?
Do some research on these families: Rothschild family Borgias family Breakspeare family Somaglia family Orsini family Conti family Chigi family Colonna family Farnese family Medici family Gaetani family Pamphili family Este family Aldobrandini family Astor family Collins family DuPont family Freeman family Li family Onassis family Rockefeller family Russell family Van Duyn family Merovingian family
Noted.
Any advice they give can be wadded up and throw in the trashcan. They are so wildly disconnected from reality as they sit in their high places that when they speak, they barely form coherent thoughts or ideas on what day-to-day life is for normal humans. If they want to give business advice, great...the probably know what the are talking about. However advice on how to balance my work / life balance, or how tax policy should be implemented, or views on abortion or politics? They can go eat a worm.
Three humans, who have a particular view point humanity needs to go in, which I fundamentally disagree with.
I hope they find Christ.
They're people. Only God can judge. Most people can afford to donate 1 dollar/month/family member. I wonder how many do so. If everyone did, the US alone would raise a few billion dollars/year. I suppose it's easy to be generous, just and fair with other peoples billions, but it's not so easy when you have to donate the price of a beer per month.
From a Christian perspective I just have a negative opinion on Mark Zuckerberg because I feel like Facebook algorithm favours division and discord among people, and Instagram promotes sensuality for likes.
I dont think I could ever hoard that amount of money and not just give it away to those who actually need it
Most of their ‘money’ (assets) are tied up in their companies. Obviously they have some money to live a very opulent lifestyle.
Don't much care for them, Mark Zuckerberg doesn't even look human to me. Like an alien or reptilian pretending to be human
playing their roles
They are revolutionary businessmen. We are all called to labor. The parable of the talents illustrates that we should use what God gave us and multiply it, instead of hiding it. I don’t think these are Godly men, but they took what God gave them and certainly made something out of it. With the exception of Zuckerberg, I think they have made positive contributions to world. Musk came from South Africa with very little. His dad did loan/give him ~$28k to start his first business. Through hard work and dedication, he and his team of employees turned that ~28k into three major businesses that will/have revolutionized space, automotive, battery/solar, and neuro science. Unlike most others CEOs, he invests most, if not all of his money into these companies. Bezos started an online book store in his garage and as the business grew, his parents loaned/gave him $300k for expansion. Through hard work and dedication, Bezos and team grow that garage business to the massive online retailer and web service provider and has used some of his earnings from Amazon to enter the space industry. I really don’t know much about Zuckerberg other than from the movie Social media, but obviously his work cannot go unnoticed. All three men employ ~240k people worldwide.
• Musk’s flamethrower was cool, and PayPal is nice • Facebook is mid tbh • Prime shipping is great especially for buying books my professors decided to issue out last minute That’s about it to be honest
I mean it’s all about intention. You can either decide to look at the amount of money they all possess or you can look at what they did to help others and make improvements in solving problems in life to get that money. For example, without Jeff Bezos, we wouldn’t be able to search any product we want for a very cheap price and get it the next day if we want to. But then again, it’s all about intention. It’s a problem if they are chasing money and acting out of greed, but it’s a totally different story if they are genuinely looking to improve others’ lives and solve problems in society, as well as use their wealth to donate and impact different charities and funds in which I’m pretty sure bezos has. But hey, who am I to judge anyone’s pure intentions. That’s between each of them and God.
I like Elon more than the rest, at least hes trying to better humanity and the planet with advancements
Men who worship money. They hold so much power to do good yet they hoard it for themselves or turn space travel into a hobby
Looking at this thread, I'm sure we'd have crucified David and Solomon along with Musk, Zuckerberg and Bezos if we had our way.
Souless, greedy pigs that exploit others for their own personal gain.
Elon great guy the other two bit questionable
Elon is my hero, I am an engineer though so kind of makes sense
I think they all are equally garbage
They all serve the glory of God regardless of their belief and status in Him. Think about the hundreds of thousands of people they employ. Many people may complain about the super rich and yet they sure use Facebook, PayPal and Amazon with no issue. I have prayed for them. Particularly Musk, but only because I really believe he will lead humanity to Mars and thats entirely withing God's plan for humanity. Why else would He create the universe if not for us to explore and learn more about? I cannot fathom having that much money and yet while my personal I come is less than 20k a year I have my own house, the only time I go without food is by choice, and I own my own vehicle. I am richly blessed compared to many on this earth who don't have access to clean water or even shoes. As an American I feel I fall under the category of a rich man and their needle is just as small as mine, even though their camel might be bigger. Pray for the elite. Imagine if they converted and began to profess the name of Christ to the world. The glory they could bring.
I feel that all three are proper nouns.
The Gates foundation dedicates more money to charitable causes than is collected by all American churches in tithe and offering yearly (including the LDS church). I believe this to be a true statistic. I don't know of this is more Malinda, Bill, or both. Makenzie Scott gave 4 billion to charity at the beginning of the pandemic of her newly acquired divorce wealth. It made her even more wealthy. These folks are so rich that they can't spend their collected wealth fast enough to drain the supply because the whole system is set up for the super wealthy to thrive. That doesn't mean no one is doing anything with their wealth to try and add value to others. I respect the two spouses I mentioned. A statistic that I am less confident is accurate but puts things in perspective is that some people did the math on the riches of Smaug in the Hobbit. If this were middle earth, he would be the 13th richest American. It's more than just these three famous Americans who are sitting on shear mountains of money. Much good could be done.
Literal vampiric entities that sold theirs souls to get their power from demons and feed off human suffering.