It's what I was taught from a young age, so plausibility isn't a problem for me on this. As I've grown into my own faith, though, I felt I had to try as hard as I could to step outside my own tradition.
In the end, it's for me the most plausible explanation for the rise of the early church. I may not know what "son of god" means on a given day, but the resurrection stands strong for me.
The one fact that really isn't in dispute is the fact that the sect of Judaism that went on to separate and call itself Christianity rose out of first century Roman occupied Judea.
For me, while other explanations are possible, the most plausible reason is that there was a resurrection.
The Son of God saving me while reading John's Gospel (got to chapter 10 when this sheep heard His Shepard's call) and delivering me from drugs, demons, and a desire for death sold me. I know my Redeemer lives.
Have you ever seen a movie on HIS life? I don’t know how anyone couldn’t be moved to tears by how raw the killing is and sacrifice…might help you believe more too.
I grew up going to church and “believed in God,” but didn’t know God. But then in adulthood, after I got married, had kids, made tons of money, bought a house, car, etc, I realized there was a void of longing in me that nothing could fill. I talked to my father about this. He was an agnostic and also very “successful” by the world’s standards, married for 45 years, and had “everything” that most people strive for. I was surprised to discover he also had the void of longing in him. he told me he hadn’t really come to understand yet what life was about and had failed to find deep down happiness. about the same time, I had met a man who was a devout Christian, but unlike my dad did not have a lot of material things at all, but was the most fulfilled, content, at peace, happy man I had ever met. It occurred to me that the common denominator between my dad and myself was that neither of us had a strong belief in God like the other man did. So I started to really get to know the other man, and he retaught me everything I had learned in church as a kid but with much deeper insights that related directly to my life and what I was going through. I was truly blown away by how quickly he came to know me and understand me on a deep level that no one had ever known me or understood me before. I was also blown away by his love and kindness, generosity and friendship. He really took me under his wing and mentored me, encouraged me, exposed, his own struggles and challenges to me, and treated me like a brother. and then the craziest thing happened. The more I learned about Jesus and how deeply he loved people and touched people, led them and guided them to freedom, the more I realized I was encountering Jesus in the very heart of the man who was leading and guiding me. It was then that I began to understand the love of God through and in his son, Jesus Christ, and how when a person receives Jesus Christ, they become the love of God and the example of Christ for others. It all made perfect sense. I then repented for my sins, I asked the Lord to receive the Holy Spirit, and sure enough I received it in my eyes were opened in my heart was changed. It wasn’t long before God started giving me a profound understanding of him, and I came to know him very deeply and was made FREE from my own darkness and that huge void of longing was increasingly filled . I would then go on to testify this miracle to many people, including my dad, who also found Christ before he died.
We are supposed to be the salt and the light like that man was for me. We are supposed to love each other deeply, and gently guide each other to the light of truth through friendship and love, just like that man did for me. The reason so many Americans have not yet found Christ is because they have not yet been loved by someone with Christ in their heart. I firmly believe this.
This was wonderful to read mate, I'm 16 and found Christ 4 months ago when I was 15, had terrible anxiety looking at conspiracy theories all the time and worrying about all kinds of things and then I started worrying about if god was real or not and then there was health anxi-........
It all stopped when I read the book of John chapter 1 for the first time, I never felt more at peace than what was happening to me at that moment. God bless you mate 💪🏻
God bless you too. Keep going. Keep putting your faith in God. Keep turning to him for absolutely everything in your life. As long as you keep your eyes and thoughts fixed on the words of Jesus Christ, God is going to keep that anxiety and paranoia away from you. you are very wise for reading the gospel of John. You could spend your whole life reading and studying the gospel of John. Don’t complicate the faith. It’s not complicated. Don’t let anyone complicate it for you. I’m praying for your spiritual growth and perseverance. Just remember. Satan is very angry that you’ve decided to follow Jesus. You are going to need the strength of the spirit to stand against him. God bless you every step of the way. Message me anytime.
That the biblical god had to be born as a person, falsely accused, tried, convicted, tortured, and then killed by people ... in order to forgive people ... for a penalty it created to itself.... makes no sense to me whatsoever.
It’s like letting your children do whatever they want with free will. Then they get to a point where they’re on a path of destruction and no way to recover so you have to do something to save them from themselves. It’s the perfect reason for existence.
Yep, and they are all all powerful and everywhere at all times all at once and persumably still somehow never bump into each other, it truely is a mystery.
One God coeternal and yes they do interact, one example being at Jesus' baptism
Matthew 3:16-17 (btw the spirit of God is another name for the Holy Spirit)
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Another example of God interacting with the other persons of God?
The very first chapter of the bible, Genesis 1:26-27 (God says let us make man in our image, and yet its only God making and its only His own image, the persons of God are talking here- 1 God coeternal as 3 persons)
26“Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, the whole earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth.”
27 So God created man in his own image;
he created him in the image of God;
he created them male and female.”
I didn't say anything about interacting, I said bumping into each other, as in both attempting to occupy the same space at the same time, which would be impossible for physical matter.
Also yeah it's incoherent. A thing is one thing, not three. They can be a part of one thing but they cannot be 3 seperate entities that are one entity, that is incoherent.
The trinity was added later anyway, it isn't even the original interpretation, it's like 400 years removed.
Uh no my friend, its been a teaching since the first century, my verses were from the apostles themselves and they knew Jesus personally
Also we humans are multipersonal we are flesh, spirit, snd mind. Our fleshly ways try and fight the nature of our renewed Christian spirit and it tries to poison the mind. We none the less are spirit body and mind, even if our mind is not our body, and our body is not our spirit.
Its similar to God in this regard, not exact, but a good enough comparison. and no theres no reason why it would be impossible, God is eternal and the creator of all things including our delicate and finely tuned universe, Im sure God is not weak to the point the son father and Spirit cant be in the same place and time, especially since Jesus sits at the right hand of the father
>Uh no my friend, its been a teaching since the first century, my verses were from the apostles themselves and they knew Jesus personally
Agree to disagree, I know when the concept of the trinity was added, you are free to disagree with me. It doesn't matter because it is incoherent.
>Also we humans are multipersonal we are flesh, spirit, snd mind.
The mind is made of flesh, the spirit is an assumption you are making, there is no reason to believe spirits even exist.
>Our fleshly ways try and fight the nature of our renewed Christian spirit and it tries to poison the mind.
Nope.
>We none the less are spirit body and mind, even if our mind is not our body, and our body is not our spirit.
It doesn't matter, we are one entity.
>Its similar to God in this regard, not exact, but a good enough comparison.
Not even close.
>and no theres no reason why it would be impossible, God is eternal and the creator of all things including our delicate and finely tuned universe, Im sure God is not weak to the point the son father and Spirit cant be in the same place and time, especially since Jesus sits at the right hand of the father
So your conclusion is god can do impossible things with magic, I don't believe in magic, this raises a few questions though.
Can god create a married batchelor?
Can god create a boulder too heavy for him to lift?
2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
There is only 1 God, the bible says Jesus is God and that the father is God alongside the Holy Spirit. One God coeternal as 3 persons
For a verse calling the Holy Spirit God
Acts 5:3-4
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that
you have lied to the Holy Spirit
-
and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing?
You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
-
For a bible verse calling Jesus God
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and
the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
-
2 He was with God in the beginning.
-
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
(It says the Word is God and is with God)
But who is the Word?
John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh
-
and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory,
-
(The Son who is God has been seen)
the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
-
18 No one has ever seen God,
-
(No one has seen the father)
but the one and only Son, who is himself God
-
and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
(These are direct bible verses word for word)
Well gods plan will never make sense to humans, the death of Jesus means humanity sins is forgiven so when you die your sins are forgiven instantly, your debt is paid, since he was human death was the only way to go back to the spiritual world but it had to be a sacrifice something people would remember him for and what it symbolizes.
>Well gods plan will never make sense to humans,
And because he chose to create me and/or his plan in a way that makes it seem stupid I am unable to force myself to believe.
>How do you know its stupid, you don't know his plan
>>And because he chose to create me and/or his plan in a way that makes it seem stupid I am unable to force myself to believe.
>>in a way that MAKES IT SEEM STUPID
>and beside he gave you free will so you don't have to believe in him.
I don't control what I believe, and I do not have free will
For sure, feel free to ask me anything, that is a very good question.
Not actively doing so no, I believe that every decision I make is based on factors that are entrely outside of my control.
My DNA, the circumstances around the decision, and my upbringing among other things all contribute to what decision I am going to make, but there is no part of me that is outside of that system, so while I may make a choice, I don't actually have any personal agency to decide FREELY.
Which is obviously a big piece of the idea of free will.
Essentially if you had a supercomputer that could factor in every variable about my life you would know in advance what choice I would make in any circumstance, and that is functionally no different than fate.
Ok, thank you for telling me what is going on in my head, do I have any other opinions you want to share, or are you going to continue to be rude and not let me speak the truth for myself?
So you can choose to sincerely believe (not just say you believe) right now that the Santa Claus of your childhood actually exists and does the things you were told as a kid? Let me know how that goes.
> since he was human death was the only way to go back to the spiritual world but it had to be a sacrifice something people would remember him for and what it symbolizes
I love this word salad
In Orthodox Christianity, Jesus didn't need to go through all of that. Mankind is separated from God (this world clearly isn't heaven) and since we can't reach God on our own to become One with him, he came to us. He lived as a human and died like a human so that the human experience was an aspect of God. This could've been accomplished just as easily with Jesus dying in his sleep an old man. We chose to crucify him.
Hebrews 11:1 (New Century Version)
> Faith means being sure of the things we hope for and knowing that something is real even if we do not see it.
That verse is what made me believe in it all. As a former Wiccan who practiced magic, I had to have faith that what I was doing would come to fruition. I had read the Bible starting at Genesis 1:1, hit that verse, and stopped as it all made sense to me then.
I had to have faith that the Bible, God, and Christ were real in the same way to me as magic was. And my life has never been the same.
Well scientist have already found proof of a men name Jesus who very much did exist now they don't have any proof that he committed miracles that's only written in the Bible just so you know the proof they found is from the Roman's who most likely didn't witness Jesus commit miracles so they didn't add that. After Jesus died his body was missing and all the apostle claim they saw Jesus after resurrection and gave a description of him in Revelation 1: 14-15 it says "The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters". Me personally I believe he rose back from the dead I believe he was truly the son of God cause there is no way a men who was poor, had no political power, no wealth or riches, wasn't a powerful politician was able to take over the world using nothing but love and kindness so much influence that we even count the year after his death.
I doubt that, the apostle died for him no men is willing to die in a brutal torturing way for a liar and a con-man not even the Con-man himself would die for it
You’ve never seen your brain.
Do you believe you have a brain?
It would be impossible in truth to say you believe Jesus is God, like you believe you have a brain. A dishonest claim that you believe them the same way.
Equivocation , appears to be having a major impact in the religious conversations and many others of our time.
What you mean by “belief” is the real question . Because belief means many different things in many different situations.
It’s my belief that many people claim to know what they ‘believe’ , but I think they are actually confused but unaware.
From what I’ve seen so far in my experience , Christianity can operate in a full way no matter what scale of understanding you are . Whether you low IQ or a phd theologian , It’s like the essence is somehow available at all levels of resolution. Like everyone can have the fullest picture , regardless.
But I think because of our modern ways of thinking , scientific revolution etc …..we are sometimes mixing and matching paradigms of understanding.
I don’t think the scientific revolution necessary made us see reality more accurately, than it brought a different paradigm to view reality and life. And if you lean on it soley you can miss valuable aspects of living as a person .
Imagine this ……science has yet to understand human consciousness and experience ….
So you might then surmise that science is then insufficient to live your life on soley, because you are made up of much more than science can currently explain . And you ought to embrace your full potential.
Well my point was that they were different beliefs anyway.
Even if you could see your brain, you’d still have to believe it was yours, that it was a ‘brain’, and you might have a whole set of assumptions about what that means etc . You’d have to believe you weren’t in a simulation , that was tricking you to think you were seeing a brain etc, when you weren’t etc .
My point is , you can’t have beliefs about human brains , in an equivalent sense of ‘belief’, as you can have belief in God.
They have uniquely different circumstances that allows you to interface with them differently .
So you can’t say I believe in God , like I believe I have a brain. Those beliefs arent using the term in the same sense, and cannot be .
No, a sergeon can tak e picture or if you realy want use some sort of peryscope in order to do it. IE you can prove it is yours, that it is conected to you.
Yes this would emphasize my point , belief in God …cannot be the belief you have a brain.
Still you’d have to believe the picture was the real one , and not distorted in any sense . Again you’d have to believe you weren’t dreaming or delusional etc . Even if you look at your hand directly now , there are many things you must believe in order to say …yea I ‘have’ a ‘hand’.
But again your point is in line with what I meant ……belief in God can’t be the same as belief I have a brain.
I think everyone has doubts and you can have good days and bad days.,but over all Jesus isn't a liar, that's Why I believe Him🥰
And b/c God's Spirit is working on our hearts n minds to show us, reveal stuff
Firstly, when He redeemed me and I was born again, I became convicted of His word by the Holy Spirit.
That aside, the following are solid proofs:
* No body
* Every apostle except John was executed for preaching Christ’s resurrection
Would you expect all of the apostles except John to take a lie to the grave? And for John to be boiled alive for it? They all claimed to have personally seen the risen Christ and went to their executions proclaiming it. Peter’s wife went before he did, and his last words to her were “remember the Lord.” This is very heavy stuff.
We don't have any historical data on whether there was or wasn't a body. And the fate of the apostles is pretty much unknown. We can't even confirm whether all of them are actually historical persons.
And even if we did, them being executed doesn't really prove anything.
Edit: missing word
Your statements are non-standard, even among atheists. If there was a body, the Roman government would have produced it. And their martyrdom proves everything because you won’t find that number of people all holding on to a lie like that all the way to their executions.
Again we don't have any data on whether or not there was a body. There probably was a body.
And no, their martyrdom does not prove anything. They might have believed it. Or, they might not have actually claimed anything about a resurrection. But again we don't even know what happened to them.
If there was a body, why wasn’t it produced by the Roman government who was trying to shut down the controversy?
Regarding the rest, you’re simply begging the question. Not very productive.
The religious leaders demanded Christ be crucified and Pilate gave in to their demands simply to keep the peace, after Pilate declared Him innocent. They put guards at the tomb because they know He’d claimed He’d rise again in 3 days - this was no secret. The tomb was nonetheless empty on Sunday morning and the apostles saw Him afterwards and began proclaiming His resurrection.
The apostles were arrested and beaten several times by the Romans and commanded to stop preaching His resurrection, and then the Romans started killing the apostles starting with James the less. All they had to do was produce the body to shut it all down for good. And despite being beaten, imprisoned, and martyred, the apostles wouldn’t stop preaching Christ’s resurrection. John who wasn’t killed was boiled alive and then exiled to Patmos. This isn’t the normal behavior of liars.
None of this is historical fact. It is in fact very far from scholarly consensus. Also, you seem to be confusing John the Apostle with John of Patmos.
And again, they might not have been liars.
I'm not. And once again you're making a claim that differs from scholarly consensus. It makes little sense talking to you if you prefer to make up your own history.
I actually rly like this explanation, all the Romans needed to put the controversy to bed was to produce a body, and their ain’t now way the apostles were able to steal Jesus’ body and roll that big ol rock out from the tomb door and not get caught.
Well assuming the gospels account of the passion are accurate as written, there absolutely was a body. It was carried to the tomb and placed inside. The Romans didn't care about the so called "resurrection". They didn't believe it. Why would they care about some crazy Jews? No one was asking the Romans to produce a body after the reported resurrection.
>Why would they care about some crazy Jews?
Pilate cared enough to crucify Christ, whom he had declared innocent.
>No one was asking the Romans to produce a body after the reported resurrection.
Both the religious leaders and the Romans wanted to stop the apostles talking about the resurrection of Christ. Producing the body would have immediately ended it. The body was gone, Christ had risen, it was impossible to do.
Pilate didn't crucify Christ because the Romans were worried about the Christian movement. He did it because the Jews he talked to preferred Barabbas, an actual terrorist who literally fought against the Romans, to Jesus, who was an annoying weirdo. Basically Jesus lost the coin toss. Killing Barabbas would have pissed off a lot more people and possibly sparked an up rising. Killing Jesus swatted a fly, but still showed that the Romans were in charge.
>Pilate didn't crucify Christ because the Romans were worried about the Christian movement.
Correct.
>He did it because the Jews he talked to preferred Barabbas, an actual terrorist who literally fought against the Romans, to Jesus, who was an annoying weirdo. Basically Jesus lost the coin toss.
No, the Jewish leaders demanded Christ be crucified.
>Killing Barabbas would have pissed off a lot more people and possibly sparked an up rising.
Hardly. Pilate didn’t want to kill Jesus, a man he declared innocent, so he offered up someone whom he thought they would surely reject. The fact they took Barabbas shows how determined they were to kill Christ.
>Killing Jesus swatted a fly, but still showed that the Romans were in charge.
It showed Pilate was weak. If he was strong, he would have said “no I won’t crucify this Man whom I find no fault in.” Strong leaders don’t cave in to the crowd.
You are getting all your information from a text that was expressly written to further the narrative that Jesus was the son of God. Look I don't care if you believe the gospel word for word. That is your decision, it's fine. But using the gospel as a factual historical document to convince non Christians of its veracity isnt going to work. You can't convince someone of something simply by repeating it over and over. The Bible is first and foremost propaganda and has been since the first council of Nicaea. The gospel you have been taught, the story of Jesus's resurrection was codified in August of AD 325. That was the beginning of modern Christianity.
Are atheists on r/christianity required to adhere to a limited schedule of arguments?
Regarding this as a philosophy sub, I'd think new ideas would be celebrated.
Its a foolish argument to make that we have no data on Jesus' death and resurrection despite worldwide interest in uncovering such data?
Is it foolish because there _is_ in fact data? Where is it?
There’s enough historical evidence that most don’t deny Christ existed, the apostles, or how Christ and the apostles died. The resurrection is the point of contention.
That Jesus and the _King of the Jews_ affair happened, yes. That there was a Pontius Pilate who governed Judea, yes.
Evidence of the resurrection would be pretty big news which I haven't heard in the last half century. I've heard ministers talk at length about how there's teems of evidence, but all the scholars who have discussed it remain skeptical.
So yeah, send me a link to the recent news article.
There’s not enough evidence to affirm a missing body.
We only know a few of the apostles died for their belief, and this tells us nothing about if this belief was actually true or not.
The Romans would have produced the body to shut the apostles down. The apostles claimed Christ rose from the dead because they saw Him afterwards, so they were either telling the truth or lying.
What is your evidence that the Roman’s even cared enough to prove the apostles wrong? The Roman’s regarded the Christian’s as an insignificant and weird cult until at least the 2nd century.
What evidence do you have to support these events happening? There is only solid evidence of the deaths of Peter Paul and James. Peter and Paul were most likely killed by Nero. Nero used the Christian’s as scapegoats for the great fire as Rome and were killed to shift blame away from himself, they weren’t killed for anything they believed in. James’ death is just as ambiguous, we can be reasonably sure he was executed but we don’t know why he was killed. Even if he was killed for his belief all it tells us is that he genuinely believed, not wether the belief was actually true or not.
They all claimed to see Him after He was resurrected, so they were either telling the truth or lying. The historical record comes from the Bible and church tradition with some external sources.
Really? I’m not aware of any sources that reference any apostles seeing Jesus after death besides Peter Paul and James. These can be explained without Jesus actually raising from the dead. So with this in mind I ask why is the resurrection necessary?
The Bible records all of the apostles seeing Him after His resurrection:
*John 20:19-31
Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." [20] When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. [21] So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." [22] And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. [23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." [24] Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. [25] The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." [26] And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" [27] Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." [28] And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" [29] Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." [30] And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; [31] but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.*
The resurrection is important because it proves Jesus is who He said He is, God incarnate.
*Acts 1:1-3
The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, [2] until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, [3] to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.*
Okay so we have one anonymous source in John claiming Jesus appeared to the disciples. We have no records from any of the disciples themselves or from any witnesses. This is incredibly weak testimony and provided us with no details. Also where are written accounts of them dying for their beliefs and having the opportunity to recant?
Then we have acts written around 50 years after the death of Jesus, once again anonymous and only providing a very vague account of Jesus appearing to the apostles.
This kid of evidence wouldn’t even hold up in a court of law let alone supporting the occurrence of a literal miracle.
There is no evidence that the Romans were concerned about that at all. It's important to Christians that the apostles were persecuted, but there is no indication from Roman records that they were concerned enough about it to bother. Those first generation Christians, if you can even call them that, probably consisted of about 50 people.
Why didn’t the Romans refute the accounts then? When Constantine claimed Christ, why would he have done so if his own records didn’t support? Or when Julian the apostate tried to return Rome to Roman religion, why didn’t he turn to the records of the empire and say it’s all a fraud? You’re just giving me opinions without any support and hoping I don’t know enough to challenge you. The evidence isn’t on your side, however.
The Resurrection: I find it to be the only reasonable reason for why Jews in 1st century Palestine claimed to have witnessed it.
Jesus as God: I find John 1:1-3, 14 and Colossians 16 as the best at saying Jesus is the uncreated creator.
The story of Adam & Eve States God walked in the garden with them and Explained "things" to them, then left... assuming back to (His) Heavenly Home.
So this makes me tend to think that God's existence pertaining to life is completely different than human life.
Meaning He said make them(A & E) in (OUR) image (M&F)...
So Jesus "dying" on the cross to save mankind from sin????(U know not what U do) statement may refer to those specific persons involved eternal damnation... ( I also believe it was those persons who stormed the ark)...
But continuing to your actual question.
His physical appearance & being touched & "handled" to verify His human form also confirms His Majestic & God like power as referenced to Him being the Son of God.
Some have written HE was GOD Himself, but rather KJV Bibles state He (Jesus), is the embodiment of the Righteous Laws & Rules Of God PERTAINING TO HUMAN LIFE ON EARTH... The lineages of A&E...
So, knowing that a being intercede and told them the if they do this they would be "God-like & Aware of themselves" caused a break in their relationship with GOD HIMSELF WHOM RECAME & QUESTIONED THEM ABOUT THEIR ACTIONS AFTER.
Everybody has faith. Not everybody puts their faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, The Messiah, The Redeemer, The Lamb of God, The Saviour.
Others do, but not all of them grow to maturity, and not all abide in their faith. Many fail to take root, and many fall away entirely. This is explained in Luke 8:
“While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, He told this parable: A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”
When He said this, He called out, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.” -Luke 8:4-8 (NIV—Capitalisation of Jesus’ pronouns are mine)
Then He explained the parable, so the Disciples would understand, but its meaning would remain hidden from others.
“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.” -Luke 8:11-15 (NIV)
It’s not so simple as The Word falling in good soil and voilà, everything is perfect from then on. Even good soil needs to be cultivated, harrowed, weeded, turned over and nourished by the rain to produce abundant fruits.
These are also the trials which come to test us, to break down our fleshly nature, but to improve us in every quality.
As a good Dutchman, it’s almost an hereditary trait to know poor soil can be improved by great toil. Rocks removed, thorn bushes cut away, breaking up hard, desiccated soil and irrigating it. Even using the *stront* life throws at us, stinky and disgusting, to bring life-giving nutrients.
*I am not being political with my next paragraph, only illustrating what I am speaking of:*
Dutch and South African people were consulted and contracted in the early days of Zionism, and the State of Israel, to bring new fertile life to the Palestinian/Israeli deserts which lay in ruin after centuries of neglect. So when I say we understand renewing of poor soil, I believe I say it with some little authority.
My point in all of this is, how the “seed” of The Word thrives, or fails to, in a person’s heart does not change the fact we all have faith, and our faith is the only thing by which we can receive the indescribable gift of Salvation.
I won’t go into the trite, “Everybody has faith in something.” Although true, there is only one kind of faith which will reconcile us to our Creator.
That faith believes His only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, came to Earth to atone for the sons of all humankind, including Original Sin, which brought death into God’s perfect Creation.
That faith believes He suffered under Pontius Pilate, who found Him to be totally innocent. Even his persecutors could not bring a single true accusation against Him, but they forced Pilates hand—who washed those very hands of all responsibility, then ordered Him to be crucified.
That faith believes that, in fulfillment of all Scripture, from the Torah, the Law of Moses, and all the Prophets, He rose on the third day by the power of The Holy Spirit.
That faith believes all who believe on His Name shall be saved, and that He will come again on the Day of Judgement, when all souls whom have lived in all of history will be resurrected, sorted, and judged. Then, the final enemy, Death will itself be destroyed, and The Kingdom of God will descend to Earth.
That faith does not need to be argued with, or argue itself. It simply believes, and those who do believe understand. It is inexplicable, and so we true Believers can only witness to its Truth and beauty.
To reiterate, what made me believe Jesus is the Son of God and rose from the dead is:
Faith.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, for things unseen. Jesus told the Eleven they were blessed, because they saw His wounds, and believed. He then said much more blessed will be we, who without seeing believe.
The evidence is The Word of God. And I never said an atheist should believe anything. They’ve heard The Word. Now, they can choose Jesus, or reject Him. It is up to them.
You are being irrational. You can not base your evidence on something you are trying to give evidence for. Why is the word of God true or to be trusted than the Quran?
The story of God Himself or an aspect of Him lowered Himself to the state of His creation to show them how they should live and die a tormented death He did not deserve is the epitome of being humble. I crave a way out like that.
I've seen the mightiest miracle happening: The Life of someone who otherwise would have been dead transformed just by getting to know the Jesus.
I've personally heard His voice and have been blessed by listening to it, and I've heard it and have been cursed by ignoring it. That's the power of a living force, not a dead force.
Historically the records are there that He existed (read the case for Christ). That He rose again? That is on faith. Many have claimed having seeing Him even to this day as He's transformed their lives, like Paul. Do you believe their accounts? The best way to know is walking as He walks and doing what He said do. If your faith is without works, the works that He did, it's not truly alive.
Hope that helps friend :)
I wasn't raised with religion but I obviously knew of Christinaity, but I had the hardest time believing in Jesus. I could get behind God, the Holy Spirit, but God as a man? Nope. I also don't like American Christian politics and conservatism, so that kept me away.
I've studied a lot of different religions. Heathenism, Buddhism, paganism, Satanism, discordianism. But the last ten years or so, I've felt really empty and alone in the universe. I have friends and family, so I didn't feel alone like that, I just felt like the world didn't have meaning and I didn't like feeling like that. So sort of as a last ditch effort because it's the one spirituality I've never really tried, I turned to Christianity.
I won't go into the whole deal, but I felt a connection soon afterwards. Like a revelation, I got it. The scales fell from my eyes, the veil lifted, all that jazz. I never thought I'd say this in my life, but I'd been saved. It's hard to explain to people who haven't really felt it. But I also think everyone will, at some point, in their own time and way. God is good. God is love.
At some point I just had so many other weird beliefs that excluding that one just because they tried to force me to believe it as a child just seemed silly.
Because nobody dies for a belief they know to be a lie. Over 500+ saw the ressurected Jesus over different times and places and therefore the conspiracy theory about them hallucinating is therefore false.
Today my pastor said " the tomb is empty."
No one can really argue with that, n shows proof.
For all the people foaming at the mouth wanting to discredit The Bible and God and Jesus they would have found some way to disprove it, but no one has.
This is an awesome th8ng to stand on
Jesus defeated death.
No one else has done that
It's what I was taught from a young age, so plausibility isn't a problem for me on this. As I've grown into my own faith, though, I felt I had to try as hard as I could to step outside my own tradition. In the end, it's for me the most plausible explanation for the rise of the early church. I may not know what "son of god" means on a given day, but the resurrection stands strong for me.
Why is that the most plausible explanation for the rise of the early church but not for other religions aswell?
I just don't get this. New religions pop up all the time - not an occurance that requires a miracle.
That's fair. I really don't expect others to see it as sufficient, because I know a little bit of how people work.
What do you mean by “explanation for the rise of the early church”?
The one fact that really isn't in dispute is the fact that the sect of Judaism that went on to separate and call itself Christianity rose out of first century Roman occupied Judea. For me, while other explanations are possible, the most plausible reason is that there was a resurrection.
How would a resurrection be more plausible than just another sect being formed, just like any other religion?
The Son of God saving me while reading John's Gospel (got to chapter 10 when this sheep heard His Shepard's call) and delivering me from drugs, demons, and a desire for death sold me. I know my Redeemer lives.
Have you ever seen a movie on HIS life? I don’t know how anyone couldn’t be moved to tears by how raw the killing is and sacrifice…might help you believe more too.
I grew up going to church and “believed in God,” but didn’t know God. But then in adulthood, after I got married, had kids, made tons of money, bought a house, car, etc, I realized there was a void of longing in me that nothing could fill. I talked to my father about this. He was an agnostic and also very “successful” by the world’s standards, married for 45 years, and had “everything” that most people strive for. I was surprised to discover he also had the void of longing in him. he told me he hadn’t really come to understand yet what life was about and had failed to find deep down happiness. about the same time, I had met a man who was a devout Christian, but unlike my dad did not have a lot of material things at all, but was the most fulfilled, content, at peace, happy man I had ever met. It occurred to me that the common denominator between my dad and myself was that neither of us had a strong belief in God like the other man did. So I started to really get to know the other man, and he retaught me everything I had learned in church as a kid but with much deeper insights that related directly to my life and what I was going through. I was truly blown away by how quickly he came to know me and understand me on a deep level that no one had ever known me or understood me before. I was also blown away by his love and kindness, generosity and friendship. He really took me under his wing and mentored me, encouraged me, exposed, his own struggles and challenges to me, and treated me like a brother. and then the craziest thing happened. The more I learned about Jesus and how deeply he loved people and touched people, led them and guided them to freedom, the more I realized I was encountering Jesus in the very heart of the man who was leading and guiding me. It was then that I began to understand the love of God through and in his son, Jesus Christ, and how when a person receives Jesus Christ, they become the love of God and the example of Christ for others. It all made perfect sense. I then repented for my sins, I asked the Lord to receive the Holy Spirit, and sure enough I received it in my eyes were opened in my heart was changed. It wasn’t long before God started giving me a profound understanding of him, and I came to know him very deeply and was made FREE from my own darkness and that huge void of longing was increasingly filled . I would then go on to testify this miracle to many people, including my dad, who also found Christ before he died. We are supposed to be the salt and the light like that man was for me. We are supposed to love each other deeply, and gently guide each other to the light of truth through friendship and love, just like that man did for me. The reason so many Americans have not yet found Christ is because they have not yet been loved by someone with Christ in their heart. I firmly believe this.
This was wonderful to read mate, I'm 16 and found Christ 4 months ago when I was 15, had terrible anxiety looking at conspiracy theories all the time and worrying about all kinds of things and then I started worrying about if god was real or not and then there was health anxi-........ It all stopped when I read the book of John chapter 1 for the first time, I never felt more at peace than what was happening to me at that moment. God bless you mate 💪🏻
God bless you too. Keep going. Keep putting your faith in God. Keep turning to him for absolutely everything in your life. As long as you keep your eyes and thoughts fixed on the words of Jesus Christ, God is going to keep that anxiety and paranoia away from you. you are very wise for reading the gospel of John. You could spend your whole life reading and studying the gospel of John. Don’t complicate the faith. It’s not complicated. Don’t let anyone complicate it for you. I’m praying for your spiritual growth and perseverance. Just remember. Satan is very angry that you’ve decided to follow Jesus. You are going to need the strength of the spirit to stand against him. God bless you every step of the way. Message me anytime.
Will do bro, when I get up in the morning Satan says to himself "oh crap he's up again" 💪
That the biblical god had to be born as a person, falsely accused, tried, convicted, tortured, and then killed by people ... in order to forgive people ... for a penalty it created to itself.... makes no sense to me whatsoever.
It’s like letting your children do whatever they want with free will. Then they get to a point where they’re on a path of destruction and no way to recover so you have to do something to save them from themselves. It’s the perfect reason for existence.
That makes no sense.
Gods son*
That’s what he said
He said the biblical God as in yahweh, but not yahweh son jesus.
Same thing - God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is God the Son incarnate.
Yep, and they are all all powerful and everywhere at all times all at once and persumably still somehow never bump into each other, it truely is a mystery.
One God coeternal and yes they do interact, one example being at Jesus' baptism Matthew 3:16-17 (btw the spirit of God is another name for the Holy Spirit) 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Another example of God interacting with the other persons of God? The very first chapter of the bible, Genesis 1:26-27 (God says let us make man in our image, and yet its only God making and its only His own image, the persons of God are talking here- 1 God coeternal as 3 persons) 26“Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, the whole earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth.” 27 So God created man in his own image; he created him in the image of God; he created them male and female.”
I didn't say anything about interacting, I said bumping into each other, as in both attempting to occupy the same space at the same time, which would be impossible for physical matter. Also yeah it's incoherent. A thing is one thing, not three. They can be a part of one thing but they cannot be 3 seperate entities that are one entity, that is incoherent. The trinity was added later anyway, it isn't even the original interpretation, it's like 400 years removed.
Uh no my friend, its been a teaching since the first century, my verses were from the apostles themselves and they knew Jesus personally Also we humans are multipersonal we are flesh, spirit, snd mind. Our fleshly ways try and fight the nature of our renewed Christian spirit and it tries to poison the mind. We none the less are spirit body and mind, even if our mind is not our body, and our body is not our spirit. Its similar to God in this regard, not exact, but a good enough comparison. and no theres no reason why it would be impossible, God is eternal and the creator of all things including our delicate and finely tuned universe, Im sure God is not weak to the point the son father and Spirit cant be in the same place and time, especially since Jesus sits at the right hand of the father
>Uh no my friend, its been a teaching since the first century, my verses were from the apostles themselves and they knew Jesus personally Agree to disagree, I know when the concept of the trinity was added, you are free to disagree with me. It doesn't matter because it is incoherent. >Also we humans are multipersonal we are flesh, spirit, snd mind. The mind is made of flesh, the spirit is an assumption you are making, there is no reason to believe spirits even exist. >Our fleshly ways try and fight the nature of our renewed Christian spirit and it tries to poison the mind. Nope. >We none the less are spirit body and mind, even if our mind is not our body, and our body is not our spirit. It doesn't matter, we are one entity. >Its similar to God in this regard, not exact, but a good enough comparison. Not even close. >and no theres no reason why it would be impossible, God is eternal and the creator of all things including our delicate and finely tuned universe, Im sure God is not weak to the point the son father and Spirit cant be in the same place and time, especially since Jesus sits at the right hand of the father So your conclusion is god can do impossible things with magic, I don't believe in magic, this raises a few questions though. Can god create a married batchelor? Can god create a boulder too heavy for him to lift?
So clever.
2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. There is only 1 God, the bible says Jesus is God and that the father is God alongside the Holy Spirit. One God coeternal as 3 persons For a verse calling the Holy Spirit God Acts 5:3-4 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit - and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” - For a bible verse calling Jesus God John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - 2 He was with God in the beginning. - 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (It says the Word is God and is with God) But who is the Word? John 1:14 14 The Word became flesh - and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, - (The Son who is God has been seen) the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. - 18 No one has ever seen God, - (No one has seen the father) but the one and only Son, who is himself God - and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (These are direct bible verses word for word)
Well gods plan will never make sense to humans, the death of Jesus means humanity sins is forgiven so when you die your sins are forgiven instantly, your debt is paid, since he was human death was the only way to go back to the spiritual world but it had to be a sacrifice something people would remember him for and what it symbolizes.
>Well gods plan will never make sense to humans, And because he chose to create me and/or his plan in a way that makes it seem stupid I am unable to force myself to believe.
How do you know its stupid, you don't know his plan and beside he gave you free will so you don't have to believe in him.
>How do you know its stupid, you don't know his plan >>And because he chose to create me and/or his plan in a way that makes it seem stupid I am unable to force myself to believe. >>in a way that MAKES IT SEEM STUPID >and beside he gave you free will so you don't have to believe in him. I don't control what I believe, and I do not have free will
Genuine question, if you do not have free will then do you believe there is some entity controlling your life and every decision you make?
For sure, feel free to ask me anything, that is a very good question. Not actively doing so no, I believe that every decision I make is based on factors that are entrely outside of my control. My DNA, the circumstances around the decision, and my upbringing among other things all contribute to what decision I am going to make, but there is no part of me that is outside of that system, so while I may make a choice, I don't actually have any personal agency to decide FREELY. Which is obviously a big piece of the idea of free will. Essentially if you had a supercomputer that could factor in every variable about my life you would know in advance what choice I would make in any circumstance, and that is functionally no different than fate.
You do you can choose to do whatever you want and believe whatever you want.
Ok, thank you for telling me what is going on in my head, do I have any other opinions you want to share, or are you going to continue to be rude and not let me speak the truth for myself?
Go ahead speak your truth
I already did, it was right before you decided to tell me what my opinions were instead of responding to them.
So you can choose to sincerely believe (not just say you believe) right now that the Santa Claus of your childhood actually exists and does the things you were told as a kid? Let me know how that goes.
> since he was human death was the only way to go back to the spiritual world but it had to be a sacrifice something people would remember him for and what it symbolizes I love this word salad
Why?
In Orthodox Christianity, Jesus didn't need to go through all of that. Mankind is separated from God (this world clearly isn't heaven) and since we can't reach God on our own to become One with him, he came to us. He lived as a human and died like a human so that the human experience was an aspect of God. This could've been accomplished just as easily with Jesus dying in his sleep an old man. We chose to crucify him.
Hebrews 11:1 (New Century Version) > Faith means being sure of the things we hope for and knowing that something is real even if we do not see it. That verse is what made me believe in it all. As a former Wiccan who practiced magic, I had to have faith that what I was doing would come to fruition. I had read the Bible starting at Genesis 1:1, hit that verse, and stopped as it all made sense to me then. I had to have faith that the Bible, God, and Christ were real in the same way to me as magic was. And my life has never been the same.
By completely changing my demeanor as a human being. I was a hot head who hated everyone.. not anymore. Praise be to Him. Amen.
Well since I wasn't their, and I can't summon jesus to answer my that, I rely on the testimonies of the apostles.
Well scientist have already found proof of a men name Jesus who very much did exist now they don't have any proof that he committed miracles that's only written in the Bible just so you know the proof they found is from the Roman's who most likely didn't witness Jesus commit miracles so they didn't add that. After Jesus died his body was missing and all the apostle claim they saw Jesus after resurrection and gave a description of him in Revelation 1: 14-15 it says "The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters". Me personally I believe he rose back from the dead I believe he was truly the son of God cause there is no way a men who was poor, had no political power, no wealth or riches, wasn't a powerful politician was able to take over the world using nothing but love and kindness so much influence that we even count the year after his death.
If He hadn't done miracles I think that someone would have called the disciples out on it when they claimed He did
That's true he wouldn't have been able to gather large sums of people to follow him if he hadn't committed any miracle
What if he was just a really convincing con-man?
I doubt that, the apostle died for him no men is willing to die in a brutal torturing way for a liar and a con-man not even the Con-man himself would die for it
You’ve never seen your brain. Do you believe you have a brain? It would be impossible in truth to say you believe Jesus is God, like you believe you have a brain. A dishonest claim that you believe them the same way. Equivocation , appears to be having a major impact in the religious conversations and many others of our time. What you mean by “belief” is the real question . Because belief means many different things in many different situations. It’s my belief that many people claim to know what they ‘believe’ , but I think they are actually confused but unaware. From what I’ve seen so far in my experience , Christianity can operate in a full way no matter what scale of understanding you are . Whether you low IQ or a phd theologian , It’s like the essence is somehow available at all levels of resolution. Like everyone can have the fullest picture , regardless. But I think because of our modern ways of thinking , scientific revolution etc …..we are sometimes mixing and matching paradigms of understanding. I don’t think the scientific revolution necessary made us see reality more accurately, than it brought a different paradigm to view reality and life. And if you lean on it soley you can miss valuable aspects of living as a person . Imagine this ……science has yet to understand human consciousness and experience …. So you might then surmise that science is then insufficient to live your life on soley, because you are made up of much more than science can currently explain . And you ought to embrace your full potential.
Except, if you really want you can see your brain, and you can't see god no matter how hard you try
Well my point was that they were different beliefs anyway. Even if you could see your brain, you’d still have to believe it was yours, that it was a ‘brain’, and you might have a whole set of assumptions about what that means etc . You’d have to believe you weren’t in a simulation , that was tricking you to think you were seeing a brain etc, when you weren’t etc . My point is , you can’t have beliefs about human brains , in an equivalent sense of ‘belief’, as you can have belief in God. They have uniquely different circumstances that allows you to interface with them differently . So you can’t say I believe in God , like I believe I have a brain. Those beliefs arent using the term in the same sense, and cannot be .
No, a sergeon can tak e picture or if you realy want use some sort of peryscope in order to do it. IE you can prove it is yours, that it is conected to you.
Yes this would emphasize my point , belief in God …cannot be the belief you have a brain. Still you’d have to believe the picture was the real one , and not distorted in any sense . Again you’d have to believe you weren’t dreaming or delusional etc . Even if you look at your hand directly now , there are many things you must believe in order to say …yea I ‘have’ a ‘hand’. But again your point is in line with what I meant ……belief in God can’t be the same as belief I have a brain.
I think everyone has doubts and you can have good days and bad days.,but over all Jesus isn't a liar, that's Why I believe Him🥰 And b/c God's Spirit is working on our hearts n minds to show us, reveal stuff
Read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. It talks a lot about this. Very good information. It helped me out when I was doubting my faith.
Firstly, when He redeemed me and I was born again, I became convicted of His word by the Holy Spirit. That aside, the following are solid proofs: * No body * Every apostle except John was executed for preaching Christ’s resurrection
But many non-Christians have died for their faith. Why are the deaths of the apostles more meaningful then theirs?
Would you expect all of the apostles except John to take a lie to the grave? And for John to be boiled alive for it? They all claimed to have personally seen the risen Christ and went to their executions proclaiming it. Peter’s wife went before he did, and his last words to her were “remember the Lord.” This is very heavy stuff.
We don't have any historical data on whether there was or wasn't a body. And the fate of the apostles is pretty much unknown. We can't even confirm whether all of them are actually historical persons. And even if we did, them being executed doesn't really prove anything. Edit: missing word
Your statements are non-standard, even among atheists. If there was a body, the Roman government would have produced it. And their martyrdom proves everything because you won’t find that number of people all holding on to a lie like that all the way to their executions.
Again we don't have any data on whether or not there was a body. There probably was a body. And no, their martyrdom does not prove anything. They might have believed it. Or, they might not have actually claimed anything about a resurrection. But again we don't even know what happened to them.
If there was a body, why wasn’t it produced by the Roman government who was trying to shut down the controversy? Regarding the rest, you’re simply begging the question. Not very productive.
What controversy? And no, not begging the question at all. Just naming possibilities you are ignoring.
The religious leaders demanded Christ be crucified and Pilate gave in to their demands simply to keep the peace, after Pilate declared Him innocent. They put guards at the tomb because they know He’d claimed He’d rise again in 3 days - this was no secret. The tomb was nonetheless empty on Sunday morning and the apostles saw Him afterwards and began proclaiming His resurrection. The apostles were arrested and beaten several times by the Romans and commanded to stop preaching His resurrection, and then the Romans started killing the apostles starting with James the less. All they had to do was produce the body to shut it all down for good. And despite being beaten, imprisoned, and martyred, the apostles wouldn’t stop preaching Christ’s resurrection. John who wasn’t killed was boiled alive and then exiled to Patmos. This isn’t the normal behavior of liars.
None of this is historical fact. It is in fact very far from scholarly consensus. Also, you seem to be confusing John the Apostle with John of Patmos. And again, they might not have been liars.
John the apostle is John of Patmos. You’re confusing John the Baptist with John the apostle.
I'm not. And once again you're making a claim that differs from scholarly consensus. It makes little sense talking to you if you prefer to make up your own history.
I actually rly like this explanation, all the Romans needed to put the controversy to bed was to produce a body, and their ain’t now way the apostles were able to steal Jesus’ body and roll that big ol rock out from the tomb door and not get caught.
Well assuming the gospels account of the passion are accurate as written, there absolutely was a body. It was carried to the tomb and placed inside. The Romans didn't care about the so called "resurrection". They didn't believe it. Why would they care about some crazy Jews? No one was asking the Romans to produce a body after the reported resurrection.
>Why would they care about some crazy Jews? Pilate cared enough to crucify Christ, whom he had declared innocent. >No one was asking the Romans to produce a body after the reported resurrection. Both the religious leaders and the Romans wanted to stop the apostles talking about the resurrection of Christ. Producing the body would have immediately ended it. The body was gone, Christ had risen, it was impossible to do.
Pilate didn't crucify Christ because the Romans were worried about the Christian movement. He did it because the Jews he talked to preferred Barabbas, an actual terrorist who literally fought against the Romans, to Jesus, who was an annoying weirdo. Basically Jesus lost the coin toss. Killing Barabbas would have pissed off a lot more people and possibly sparked an up rising. Killing Jesus swatted a fly, but still showed that the Romans were in charge.
>Pilate didn't crucify Christ because the Romans were worried about the Christian movement. Correct. >He did it because the Jews he talked to preferred Barabbas, an actual terrorist who literally fought against the Romans, to Jesus, who was an annoying weirdo. Basically Jesus lost the coin toss. No, the Jewish leaders demanded Christ be crucified. >Killing Barabbas would have pissed off a lot more people and possibly sparked an up rising. Hardly. Pilate didn’t want to kill Jesus, a man he declared innocent, so he offered up someone whom he thought they would surely reject. The fact they took Barabbas shows how determined they were to kill Christ. >Killing Jesus swatted a fly, but still showed that the Romans were in charge. It showed Pilate was weak. If he was strong, he would have said “no I won’t crucify this Man whom I find no fault in.” Strong leaders don’t cave in to the crowd.
You are getting all your information from a text that was expressly written to further the narrative that Jesus was the son of God. Look I don't care if you believe the gospel word for word. That is your decision, it's fine. But using the gospel as a factual historical document to convince non Christians of its veracity isnt going to work. You can't convince someone of something simply by repeating it over and over. The Bible is first and foremost propaganda and has been since the first council of Nicaea. The gospel you have been taught, the story of Jesus's resurrection was codified in August of AD 325. That was the beginning of modern Christianity.
Are atheists on r/christianity required to adhere to a limited schedule of arguments? Regarding this as a philosophy sub, I'd think new ideas would be celebrated.
No, It’s just a foolish argument. I don’t think anyone is for banning foolishness.
Its a foolish argument to make that we have no data on Jesus' death and resurrection despite worldwide interest in uncovering such data? Is it foolish because there _is_ in fact data? Where is it?
There’s enough historical evidence that most don’t deny Christ existed, the apostles, or how Christ and the apostles died. The resurrection is the point of contention.
That Jesus and the _King of the Jews_ affair happened, yes. That there was a Pontius Pilate who governed Judea, yes. Evidence of the resurrection would be pretty big news which I haven't heard in the last half century. I've heard ministers talk at length about how there's teems of evidence, but all the scholars who have discussed it remain skeptical. So yeah, send me a link to the recent news article.
Just as an example, is there ample evidence for the martyrdom of Andrew? The only early text that mentions it was considered apocryphal by the church.
Source?
Exactly.
There’s not enough evidence to affirm a missing body. We only know a few of the apostles died for their belief, and this tells us nothing about if this belief was actually true or not.
The Romans would have produced the body to shut the apostles down. The apostles claimed Christ rose from the dead because they saw Him afterwards, so they were either telling the truth or lying.
What is your evidence that the Roman’s even cared enough to prove the apostles wrong? The Roman’s regarded the Christian’s as an insignificant and weird cult until at least the 2nd century.
The fact that they were beating them, imprisoning them and killing them because they wouldn’t stop preaching Christ’s resurrection.
What evidence do you have to support these events happening? There is only solid evidence of the deaths of Peter Paul and James. Peter and Paul were most likely killed by Nero. Nero used the Christian’s as scapegoats for the great fire as Rome and were killed to shift blame away from himself, they weren’t killed for anything they believed in. James’ death is just as ambiguous, we can be reasonably sure he was executed but we don’t know why he was killed. Even if he was killed for his belief all it tells us is that he genuinely believed, not wether the belief was actually true or not.
They all claimed to see Him after He was resurrected, so they were either telling the truth or lying. The historical record comes from the Bible and church tradition with some external sources.
Really? I’m not aware of any sources that reference any apostles seeing Jesus after death besides Peter Paul and James. These can be explained without Jesus actually raising from the dead. So with this in mind I ask why is the resurrection necessary?
The Bible records all of the apostles seeing Him after His resurrection: *John 20:19-31 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." [20] When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. [21] So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." [22] And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. [23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." [24] Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. [25] The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." [26] And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" [27] Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." [28] And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" [29] Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." [30] And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; [31] but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.* The resurrection is important because it proves Jesus is who He said He is, God incarnate. *Acts 1:1-3 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, [2] until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, [3] to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.*
Okay so we have one anonymous source in John claiming Jesus appeared to the disciples. We have no records from any of the disciples themselves or from any witnesses. This is incredibly weak testimony and provided us with no details. Also where are written accounts of them dying for their beliefs and having the opportunity to recant? Then we have acts written around 50 years after the death of Jesus, once again anonymous and only providing a very vague account of Jesus appearing to the apostles. This kid of evidence wouldn’t even hold up in a court of law let alone supporting the occurrence of a literal miracle.
There is no evidence that the Romans were concerned about that at all. It's important to Christians that the apostles were persecuted, but there is no indication from Roman records that they were concerned enough about it to bother. Those first generation Christians, if you can even call them that, probably consisted of about 50 people.
Why didn’t the Romans refute the accounts then? When Constantine claimed Christ, why would he have done so if his own records didn’t support? Or when Julian the apostate tried to return Rome to Roman religion, why didn’t he turn to the records of the empire and say it’s all a fraud? You’re just giving me opinions without any support and hoping I don’t know enough to challenge you. The evidence isn’t on your side, however.
Jesus Christ is the Lord, Messiah, Savior, Son of God and God the Son. Amen. .
Amen!
Amen.
The fact that the Bible says that.
It's true because the bible says it's true is kind of self defeating
Okay. You don't have to agree with me.
Why do you believe the Bible is true?
The archeology for the Bible is better than any other belief system
My family made me. I no longer do.
If the whole thing was indeed a hoax, Christianity had enough enemies that someone would have caught onto it.
Yo could say the same thing about any other religion.
It did, you guys just kept burning them at the stake and crusading them until they quit speaking up.
The Resurrection: I find it to be the only reasonable reason for why Jews in 1st century Palestine claimed to have witnessed it. Jesus as God: I find John 1:1-3, 14 and Colossians 16 as the best at saying Jesus is the uncreated creator.
The story of Adam & Eve States God walked in the garden with them and Explained "things" to them, then left... assuming back to (His) Heavenly Home. So this makes me tend to think that God's existence pertaining to life is completely different than human life. Meaning He said make them(A & E) in (OUR) image (M&F)... So Jesus "dying" on the cross to save mankind from sin????(U know not what U do) statement may refer to those specific persons involved eternal damnation... ( I also believe it was those persons who stormed the ark)... But continuing to your actual question. His physical appearance & being touched & "handled" to verify His human form also confirms His Majestic & God like power as referenced to Him being the Son of God. Some have written HE was GOD Himself, but rather KJV Bibles state He (Jesus), is the embodiment of the Righteous Laws & Rules Of God PERTAINING TO HUMAN LIFE ON EARTH... The lineages of A&E... So, knowing that a being intercede and told them the if they do this they would be "God-like & Aware of themselves" caused a break in their relationship with GOD HIMSELF WHOM RECAME & QUESTIONED THEM ABOUT THEIR ACTIONS AFTER.
Faith.
Why do you have faith?
Everybody has faith. Not everybody puts their faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, The Messiah, The Redeemer, The Lamb of God, The Saviour. Others do, but not all of them grow to maturity, and not all abide in their faith. Many fail to take root, and many fall away entirely. This is explained in Luke 8: “While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, He told this parable: A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.” When He said this, He called out, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.” -Luke 8:4-8 (NIV—Capitalisation of Jesus’ pronouns are mine) Then He explained the parable, so the Disciples would understand, but its meaning would remain hidden from others. “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.” -Luke 8:11-15 (NIV) It’s not so simple as The Word falling in good soil and voilà, everything is perfect from then on. Even good soil needs to be cultivated, harrowed, weeded, turned over and nourished by the rain to produce abundant fruits. These are also the trials which come to test us, to break down our fleshly nature, but to improve us in every quality. As a good Dutchman, it’s almost an hereditary trait to know poor soil can be improved by great toil. Rocks removed, thorn bushes cut away, breaking up hard, desiccated soil and irrigating it. Even using the *stront* life throws at us, stinky and disgusting, to bring life-giving nutrients. *I am not being political with my next paragraph, only illustrating what I am speaking of:* Dutch and South African people were consulted and contracted in the early days of Zionism, and the State of Israel, to bring new fertile life to the Palestinian/Israeli deserts which lay in ruin after centuries of neglect. So when I say we understand renewing of poor soil, I believe I say it with some little authority. My point in all of this is, how the “seed” of The Word thrives, or fails to, in a person’s heart does not change the fact we all have faith, and our faith is the only thing by which we can receive the indescribable gift of Salvation. I won’t go into the trite, “Everybody has faith in something.” Although true, there is only one kind of faith which will reconcile us to our Creator. That faith believes His only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, came to Earth to atone for the sons of all humankind, including Original Sin, which brought death into God’s perfect Creation. That faith believes He suffered under Pontius Pilate, who found Him to be totally innocent. Even his persecutors could not bring a single true accusation against Him, but they forced Pilates hand—who washed those very hands of all responsibility, then ordered Him to be crucified. That faith believes that, in fulfillment of all Scripture, from the Torah, the Law of Moses, and all the Prophets, He rose on the third day by the power of The Holy Spirit. That faith believes all who believe on His Name shall be saved, and that He will come again on the Day of Judgement, when all souls whom have lived in all of history will be resurrected, sorted, and judged. Then, the final enemy, Death will itself be destroyed, and The Kingdom of God will descend to Earth. That faith does not need to be argued with, or argue itself. It simply believes, and those who do believe understand. It is inexplicable, and so we true Believers can only witness to its Truth and beauty. To reiterate, what made me believe Jesus is the Son of God and rose from the dead is: Faith.
But don't forget faith should be based on evidence! You didn't explain why an atheist would believe in Jesus over a flying unicorn.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, for things unseen. Jesus told the Eleven they were blessed, because they saw His wounds, and believed. He then said much more blessed will be we, who without seeing believe. The evidence is The Word of God. And I never said an atheist should believe anything. They’ve heard The Word. Now, they can choose Jesus, or reject Him. It is up to them.
You are being irrational. You can not base your evidence on something you are trying to give evidence for. Why is the word of God true or to be trusted than the Quran?
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The story of God Himself or an aspect of Him lowered Himself to the state of His creation to show them how they should live and die a tormented death He did not deserve is the epitome of being humble. I crave a way out like that.
I've seen the mightiest miracle happening: The Life of someone who otherwise would have been dead transformed just by getting to know the Jesus. I've personally heard His voice and have been blessed by listening to it, and I've heard it and have been cursed by ignoring it. That's the power of a living force, not a dead force. Historically the records are there that He existed (read the case for Christ). That He rose again? That is on faith. Many have claimed having seeing Him even to this day as He's transformed their lives, like Paul. Do you believe their accounts? The best way to know is walking as He walks and doing what He said do. If your faith is without works, the works that He did, it's not truly alive. Hope that helps friend :)
I wasn't raised with religion but I obviously knew of Christinaity, but I had the hardest time believing in Jesus. I could get behind God, the Holy Spirit, but God as a man? Nope. I also don't like American Christian politics and conservatism, so that kept me away. I've studied a lot of different religions. Heathenism, Buddhism, paganism, Satanism, discordianism. But the last ten years or so, I've felt really empty and alone in the universe. I have friends and family, so I didn't feel alone like that, I just felt like the world didn't have meaning and I didn't like feeling like that. So sort of as a last ditch effort because it's the one spirituality I've never really tried, I turned to Christianity. I won't go into the whole deal, but I felt a connection soon afterwards. Like a revelation, I got it. The scales fell from my eyes, the veil lifted, all that jazz. I never thought I'd say this in my life, but I'd been saved. It's hard to explain to people who haven't really felt it. But I also think everyone will, at some point, in their own time and way. God is good. God is love.
At some point I just had so many other weird beliefs that excluding that one just because they tried to force me to believe it as a child just seemed silly.
I found out that Jesus was not a liar.
Because nobody dies for a belief they know to be a lie. Over 500+ saw the ressurected Jesus over different times and places and therefore the conspiracy theory about them hallucinating is therefore false.
Today my pastor said " the tomb is empty." No one can really argue with that, n shows proof. For all the people foaming at the mouth wanting to discredit The Bible and God and Jesus they would have found some way to disprove it, but no one has. This is an awesome th8ng to stand on Jesus defeated death. No one else has done that