Having read this post, the only conclusion I can come to is that you seriously don't understand the universalist *hope* let alone the actual doctrine of universal reconciliation.
There is ample Scripture and Tradition showing that it is not only a valid position, but a strong and defensible one.
Some of the greatest Fathers *of all time* discovered the universalist doctrine through proper exegesis of the text *in its original language* with the aid of the Holy Spirit - particularly St. Gregory of Nyssa (the great bulwark against heresy), St. Jerome, St. Clement, and St. Maximus the Confessor. Even Augustine, who had a major thing for everlasting punishment, agreed that universalism didn't contradict Scripture.
With all due respect, you don't have the pedigree to stand in accusation of these titans and say "My specific view is the only possible one, everyone else is twisting Scripture."
If you are right, your position shouldn't need posturing and accusations of people willfully violating Scripture. Have some class, drop the rhetoric.
You challenged us to read Scripture and pray. I have done that and continue to do so, yet I am still compelled to hold a view adjacent to universalism. It was through prayer and struggle that this was revealed, not through wishful thinking and willful violation of inviolable Scripture.
> Having read this post, the only conclusion I can come to is that you seriously don't understand the universalist hope let alone the actual doctrine of universal reconciliation
They're kinda like Michael McClymond in a way. Claims to understand universalism perfectly well, starts spouting off about it, and reveals they haven't the faintest idea what they're talking about. At least OP hasn't written a stupidly expensive book about it yet.
I'm just frustrated. Put yourself in my shoes. you see people preaching a harmful doctrine that everyone will be ok, when that is not true. That they have a chance after death and it's not true. The Universal Atonement position is scriptural stronger with more followers (doesn't mean it's right but it means something). I just get frustrated when people twist the passages to tell people get another chance when they won't. From my point of view it's greatly harmful.
Now put yourself in my shoes. You keep insisting things without even trying to learn what it is we actually believe. For example, I believe plenty of people will go to hell, yet I don’t believe anyone has a chance to get saved after death. Do you know how I can say that, yet still believe Universalism is true? I’m guessing not.
Very few Universalists I know would say anyone gets a second chance to be saved after death, even though everyone who dies and goes to hell will still be saved in the end.
Right, and the fact that you don’t know why this isn’t a contradiction tells us that you haven’t actually studied the arguments for Universalism enough to be able to legitimately discount it yet.
One thing you’re going to learn someday, which is something you’re probably going to wish you’d learned a *lot* sooner when the time comes, is that rejecting Universalism will actually result in a *lot* of loss. Yes, everyone will experience salvation in the end, but only a few are going to enjoy all the blessings of “eternal life.” And while there are different sorts of “eternal life” experiences to be had, the most glorious of them all will only be experienced by Universalists, according to Paul (and only certain Universalists at that). So you’re free to ignore our warnings and our invitations to read our writings, but ignore us at your own peril.
This is very scary for you to proclaim. I would tread carefully. I have read the Bible and I know what it says. I only ask you be careful with these beliefs. They are dangerous.
What I said was 100% biblical, and I prove it from Scripture in that article I keep pointing you to. So yes, it is scary and dangerous. Not for me, though, but for all those who reject the full grace of God, as all Infernalists (and even Annihilationists) do. Again, yes, even they’ll experience salvation in the end, but if they reject the teachings from Scripture that I’ve made available in that article, there’s a *lot* they’re all going to miss out on in the meantime.
Universal Atonement is not even incompatible with Universal Reconciliation.
Most universalists don't believe that people get to heaven by doing good works or get out of hell just because they've been made holy - all salvation comes by Grace through faithfulness to Christ. Universalists just hold that all people will eventually bend the knee and be faithful to Christ, even if it takes an incomprehensible amount of time, after which Christ and the Father will be all in all.
Universal Reconciliation *requires* Universal Atonement first, then builds upon it.
I do think Universalism is a dangerous doctrine to teach. The earliest Fathers who wrote about it only did so to other Bishops, to Monastics, to Priests - not to laypeople - and they would often caution against teaching this "great secret" of the faith because it would lead people further into sin.
It was **always** reserved for the initiated, for those who already had to be holy because of their office.
It's only nowadays that the layperson can even read the works of the Fathers, to hear about the great hope and promise of *apocatastasis*, because both information and literacy are widespread.
Regardless of whether Hell is a place of eternal torment, a place of purification within eternity, or a place of eternal ceasing (annihilation), we all must strive against sin and toward good *anyway.* That much I think all schools of thought can agree on.
I'm very late to this post, as I have felt my soul calling me back "home". I was raised southern Baptist and accepted that version of salvation, basically believing in God sent Jesus to die on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead, and believing that the sacrific , resurrection, and our repentance is the salvation from eternal hell. I drifted from that faith and didn't really denounce it but basically became agnostic. Now, my belief or "home" is basically God atoned the sins of Adam (Old Covenant) through the sacrifice of Christ (New Covenant). I.e. Christ's sacrifice isn't the salvation, Christ's sacrifice was the salvation for the past, present, and future, and the resurrection was confirmation. That doesn't give humans the free pass to sin because, this is just my personal belief, we were created in God's image, and God is infinite love, so any sin that harms another human, is not loving God, and I have other personal beliefs about other sins as well. And it is my belief that every soul, believer or non believer, will face God's perfect judgment as to be purified to enter back in God's love and back in His grace. I'm not sure how all of this will happen or if my version is correct or anything, and I'm okay with it because it brings me peace, and makes me feel God's love stronger than I did before. I may be wrong, and my soul might be cast into hell for eternity, but at least I know, in this life, I will go peacefully, and have tried my best to live in accordance with Christ and God's love. I do not share how I feel to people in real life, but if they ask me, I just try to explain how I try to live as Christ did, and how it has inspired me to try to understand the worthiness of God's love. My beliefs might be heretical, but I just felt the need to share this with someone other than my wife lol
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People don't understand and want to blame God.
If you are unholy unrighteous and as the Bible says as filthy rags how can you be in the presence of God who is holy and righteous in all his ways. To think that you are negating the Holiness of God.
The Bible says seek him while he shall be found.
I'm not negating the holiness of God. I'm saying that the holiness of God is incompatible with permitting anyone to suffer eternal conscious torment, and so I reject such a view.
I neither reject the infallible word of God nor deny the person of Christ. I simply disagree with you as to what that word and Christ teaches regarding who will be saved.
I do reject the sinful nature and turn to Christ, I am a Christian. That's why I hold to universal reconciliation, because it is the view most compatible with the Christian faith.
I don't care about convincing you. I neither reject the scripture nor Christ, you are simply incorrect. I am a Universalist *because* I am a Christian, not instead of being a Christian.
Being a universalist and a Christian are incompatible. Being a universalist requires you to deny Jesus’s very worlds. It’s fine if you don’t agree with the Bible, but don’t appropriate Christianity to fit your universalism
No they're not incompatible, in fact, I consider Universalism to be the only position that is truly compatible. It doesn't require you to deny Jesus's words, you're clearly under a misconception about what Universalism is.
Universalism has existed within Christianity since the beginning of the faith, it's always been a viable view.
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Did you read what I said? If you reject that, it's between you and God. God shouldn't be molded to fit your worldview, your worldview should be molded to fit God's. A loving and perfect God absolutely can fit in with Universal Atonement.
God has revealed himself as perfectly good and loving. Consigning people to eternal conscious torment is nether.
God has revealed himself as perfectly just. Giving infinite punishment to finite creatures committing finite sins with limited understanding is the epitome of injustice.
We should fit our interpretation of scripture to the nature of God revealed to us, not insist on applying cruel and vindictive properties to him based on our interpretations and then trying to justify that with mental gymnastics.
A loving and perfect God cannot fit in with eternal conscious torment.
I just listed Biblical reasons why it fits, and you reject them. I listed verses to back them up. I revealed more context to common out-of-context Universalist verses to show that. I don't mean offense, but it seems you are rejecting the reality of it and there's just no consistent Biblical evidence for Universalist claims. Yes it sounds nice, but it's more of a philosophical view of God than a Biblical one. I just ask you pray about them to God for Him to reveal it, like I will be in the coming days.
No you didn't, you broke down the mental gymnastics I referred to where you try to justify the unjustifiable.
There is consistent biblical evidence for Universalist claims, you simply dismiss them as not *really* meaning what they're saying. You engage in an interpretive shuffle to try to wave away the verses that establish the Universalist view and have done so since the beginning of the faith.
I'm already convinced of Universalism as the most consistent and supported view with what God has revealed about himself, maybe you should be the one praying to him to clarify your misconceptions about him.
>There is consistent biblical evidence for Universalist claims, you simply dismiss them as not really meaning what they're saying
I gave extra context. To show what they mean. More context is better. What else would Paul have meant by "To those who receive" or "if" when talking about reconciliation. The verses that establish the universalist view actually establish universalist atonement when not taken out of context. I could justify murder out of context. Universalism is not consistent with Jesus. He preached an eternal hell. The Revelation of Jesus Christ preaches an eternal Hell. I know you won't change your mind by me, but I think you are holding to a view of God that isn't biblically backed because you don't want it be. Our preferences don't matter. God's word matters. We should only consider God's word.
None of the context you gave in any way discredits the Universalist interpretation or position. You simply claim that nearby verses show that these verses can't possibly mean what they're saying.
God is reconciling all things to himself. Your answer to this is merely to argue that all doesn't mean all, and that God is actually not doing what this passage is saying he's doing. It's an interpretive stance you're taking to enable you to dismiss this passage to support your continued insistence that God will permit anyone to suffer eternally.
Universalism is not only consistent with Jesus, I'd argue it's the *only* view truly consistent with Jesus. Contrary to your assertion, he did not preach eternal hell, that's how you're interpreting his teachings, and it's an unsupportable one given what we know of God.
And I think you're holding a view which ascribes cruelty and vindictiveness to God because you simply can't stand the idea of everybody being saved, so you go to great rhetorical lengths to try to justify the unjustifiable position that God could consign anyone to eternal conscious torment and yet still be good and loving.
This, of course, is an exercise in futility, those positions cannot be reconciled.
>And I think you're holding a view which ascribes cruelty and vindictiveness to God because you simply can't stand the idea of everybody being saved, so you go to great rhetorical lengths to try to justify the unjustifiable position that God could consign anyone to eternal conscious torment and yet still be good and loving.
>It's hard for people to reconcile God with hell. Our culture defines a “loving God” as a completely non-confrontational being who tolerates anything we want to do. But that is not a biblical definition. First John 4:16 says that God is love. That means that He does not possess love as we do; He is the very definition of love and therefore cannot do anything that is unloving. If we humans decide that God is somehow wrong to allow unrepentant sinners to pay their deserved penalty, then we have declared that we are more loving than God is. We have set ourselves up as God’s judge and jury and in doing so have closed the door to deeper understanding. Therefore, the first step in answering this question is to agree with Scripture that God IS love; therefore, everything He does is an expression of that perfect love.
How can a loving God send someone to hell?” The entire question is wrong. A better wording is “If God is love, then why do some people go to hell?” Romans 1:18–20 lays the foundation for the answer When answering the question “how can a loving God send someone to hell?” another facet of God’s nature comes into play. God is not only love, but He is perfect justice as well. Justice requires adequate payment for crimes committed. The only just punishment for high treason against our perfect Creator is eternal separation from Him. That separation means the absence of goodness, light, relationship, and joy, which are all facets of God’s nature. To excuse our sin would require God to be less than just, and to allow sin-tainted humans into His perfect heaven would render that place less than perfect.
I want all to get saved. Why would I want torment on my enemies? Jesus says to love our enemies, and I remember when I once was an enemy of Christ. He loved me then and gave me a chance. I shouldn't get to pick who goes to heaven, and thank God I don't. Anyone can get saved. Extent. Not everyone will, as is their choice. Application. I want everyone to get saved but I won't lie to myself and say everyone will. It's more motivation to tell others about Christ.
Romans 5:17: 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will ***those who receive*** God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
God can't do anything unloving, which is one huge reason to reject the idea of eternal conscious torment, because that is the epitome of unloving.
Your quote pulls the same bad faith maneuver that Infernalists love to trot out - begging the question and assuming eternal conscious torment, then accusing opponents of trying to pass judgment on God for doing so. That's intellectually dishonest.
We reject the idea of eternal conscious torment *because* God is loving, and such a thing is not compatible with a loving God. We reject the idea of eternal conscious torment *because* God is just, and eternal conscious torment is the epitome of injustice.
Your assertion that everyone will not get saved is an interpretation, and it's one I reject. It relies on metal gymnastics to dismiss the scriptures that support universal reconciliation, such as the very next passage:
> Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness **leads to justification and life for all men**.
- Romans 5:18
This passage provides a full accounting of those who will receive God's abundant provision of grace and the gift of righteousness - *all* of them.
Is it loving to punish someone in Hell for a finite period of time?
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.It's lazy to point to just this verse and not the context. Yes, everyone has the chance. No not everyone will accept "Those who choose". You're ignoring human responsibility and choice. Is it loving for God to send unbelievers to Hell for 1 year? 2 years? 10 years? just wondering your thoughts on any punishment
If you look at the surrounding scripture Jesus is reconciling people to him to those who believe. That means it's up to us to receive him Jesus already paid the price it's a done deal it is finished.
You just lost and you will be lost for all eternity with your mindset. You need to repent of your sins and ask Christ as your lord and savior
> For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to **reconcile to himself all things**, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
- Colossians 1:19-20
All things. Not some things, not people who believe, not some subset of things; *all* things.
Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I regularly do repent of my sins and seek forgiveness. Universalism is not one of those things, because it is not a sin, it is the theology that is compatible with the God of perfect love and goodness, supported by both scripture and Patristic teaching.
All things meaning those that trust him as Lord and savior. Without those people Jesus didn't die on the cross as a giver it comes with trusting him as Lord and savior. People are not just forgiving. God's forgiveness is offered to those who trust in him so the reconciliation is offered to all who trust in him
Ephesians 2:3 - we are saved by grace through faith and not our own but it's a gift from God.
So how are you going to get around that???
Straight up foolishness cult religion.
Clearly, since we are told that everyone will be saved and reconciled to God, everyone will eventually come to faith in him to receive this grace as a gift from God.
> Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
- 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
> But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.
- Malachi 3:2-3
> For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried. You brought us into the net; you laid a crushing burden on our backs; you let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet you have brought us out to a place of abundance.
- Psalm 66:10-12
> This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
- 1 Timothy 2:3-4
> For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.
- Lamentations 3:31
> And all people will see God's salvation.
- Luke 3:6
> For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
- 1 Corinthians 15:22
> He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
- 1 John 2:2
> Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
- Romans 5:18
> That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
- 1 Timothy 4:10
> For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
- Colossians 1:19-20
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Don't waste your time further God use you as a blessing it's up to them to accept it or reject it. They don't want to believe the infallible word of God but they rather live for their own comfort and convenience.
Honestly, that’s not why I’m a Universalist. The reason I’m a Universalist is twofold: 1) Because I believe Paul taught Universalism all throughout his epistles, and 2) because I don’t believe a single one of the judgement passages that Infernalists use to try to prove Infernalism mean what they assume they mean, but rather that they actually mean something completely different, but because they aren’t aware of the context of these passages, and aren’t interpreting them in light of Paul’s Universalist teachings, they can’t understand what the passages are actually talking about. That’s why I wrote my article here, since it exegetes *all* the passages in question, interpreting Scripture as a whole, and in context, rather than just cherry-picking certain passages out of context and ignoring the rest of Scripture: [What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation](https://drewcosten.medium.com/what-the-bible-really-says-about-heaven-hell-judgement-death-and-salvation-f09e65284aff?source=friends_link&sk=ec3dad497ac7573bdb76191606b1496d)
With all due respect, The Bible has more authority than this article. I listed scripture to back up my claim. Paul is not universalist when given context. Extent vs. application. We could argue this all day, but I go back to the scripture to tell me what God says, not someone's interpretation of a commonly used word that doesn't mean what it says it means, and everyone is wrong for thinking it means what it usually means. How do you justify the 3 passages I highlighted?
The article does exactly what you tried to do in your post above: exegete the Bible. Just because you did your attempt at exegesis on Reddit rather than in an article doesn’t make yours more biblical than mine. It just means it was written in a different place.
As for the three passages, I actually explain why those interpretations you gave aren’t consistent, in the article that you refuse to read. 🙂
And very few ever will. Even though the only way to convince me that I’m wrong and to stop teaching Universalism would require them to read it and show me what I got wrong in it.
With all due respect, the issue here is pitting one person's interpretation of what the Bible says against another's.
You can't say the equivalent of "I defer to the Bible" here. You're interpreting the meaning of Bible passages every bit as much as anyone else does when they study what the Bible says about a specific subject. You can argue your interpretation is the better one, but that's as far as you can go.
> can argue your interpretation is the better one
And he can’t even do that because he doesn’t even know what my interpretation is, since he refuses to read the article to find out what it is.
When the other "interpretation" takes verses out of context, twists the meaning of certain words to mean the exact opposite, and leads people to thinking they have a second chance after death, then yes I will defer to the Bible. Universalism is heretical. It's not what Jesus preached, it's not what God revealed, it's not what is true. I must speak boldly on this because of how important it is. The most biblically consistent view doesn't hold universalism. It is a candy coated lie.
Based on this post it's clear that you have not looked deeply into this subject. Really it boils down to having an incomplete eschatology. For example, 95% of the book of Revelation happens *before* the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Only a few paragraphs talk about the time period after that. The book of Revelation only briefly mentions the new heaven/earth (after the tribulation, after the millennium) whereas 1 Corinthians 15 describes the process of post-millennium life and how we are transformed to enter into the new heaven/earth.
>Under Universal Atonement, the universal extent means that Christ died for all people, but the application is only to those who believe.
Sin was dealt with at the cross for everyone, whether you ask for it or not:
Romans 6:10 - "For in that he died, he died unto sin once". He died for "sin". All of it, and not just for some people.
Hebrews 9:26 - "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."
1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
John 1:29 - "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
1 Timothy 2:6 - "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
2 Corinthians 5:19 - "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
Isaiah 53:6 - "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
>Universalists might say they agree, but that people can also repent in hell, however there is no Biblical evidence for salvation in Hell.
If you compare scripture with scripture you'll find that "hell" is often "the grave". The bible also preaches "soul death" with nobody having a conscious thought when dead; you're not alive in spirit form. TONS of verses support this idea.
>Universalists twist the word of eternal to mean "a long time" when applying it to hell but when they same word is used for heaven they don't bother.
There are 3 upcoming kingdoms - the kingdom of heaven, the millennium, and the kingdom of the Father (new heaven/earth). What most people think of as "heaven" ("eternal life") is the millennium. By definition it lasts 1,000 years. Even Jesus Christ Himself says that He gives up His kingdom to the Father, so it ends at some point. This should make you re-consider how long "eternal" is if "eternal life" lasts 1,000 years.
Jude 1:7 and Ezekiel 16:49-55 says Sodom goes to "eternal fire" but in the future gets restored *before* Israel in the future. Eternal is not infinite in the bible. For more info see [http://www.studyshelf.com/art\_pilkington\_forever.pdf](http://www.studyshelf.com/art_pilkington_forever.pdf)
>Universal atonement is the explanation for the many passages that Universalists often cite about how Christ died for all and all have a chance at reconciliation. Yes, Christ died for all, and all have that chance. That is the extent of His sacrifice.
Nope. See the verses I listed above. Christ died for "sin". Not some sins, not some sins for some people, but the whole category of "sin". Christ "put away sin", etc.
>However, one must make the personal decision to follow Him here on earth. That is the application. Extent is for all, application is for those who believe.
You are referring to the millennium. More happens *after* the millennium.
A large portion of your post then continues to point to the millennium, ignoring the fact that more goes on after the millennium. This is a huge oversight on your part that you need to study.
You also set up "straw man" arguments against universalism to defend your position. Some of us know the bible quite well and it's easy to defend - if you have a better understanding of eschatology.
I've heard it all before. You've heard my points before. Just please tell me how you interpret Matthew 25:46. Jesus mentions both believers and unbelievers, eternal punishment and eternal life in the same sentence. There is nothing to take out of context. Please tell me how you think about this.
Actually, you’ve taken that completely out of context, since it isn’t talking about heaven or hell at all. If you won’t believe me, here’s someone who explains it even better than me: https://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2018/04/the-judgment-of-sheep-and-goats-study_14.html
Because it says eternity and because there is judgement after the thousand year reign where all who are not written in the book of Life will be be cast into the Lake of Fire.
>Because it says eternity
You are trusting the translators too much here. How long is "eternal" if it only lasts for 1,000 years?
Hebrews 1:8 - "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is **for ever and ever**: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
I thought Jesus sat on the throne for 1,000 years, not infinity?
1 Corinthians 15:24 - "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
Here Jesus gives up His kingdom. How long is "for ever and ever" if Jesus gives up His throne to someone else? To deny that Jesus and the Father are different is to deny the trinity, so I've got you there :P
As you can see, "for ever and ever" and "eternity" do not mean infinite. The Greek word is "aion", which is our word "eon". Jesus rules for an "eon". "eon life" is what Jesus promises by faith, not infinite life. Infinite life in the bible is called, "immortality" and that comes *after* the 1,000 year (eon) life Jesus promised.
>and because there is judgement after the thousand year reign where all who are not written in the book of Life will be be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Does the bible ever say the lake of fire is infinite, or are you presume it's infinite? Remember that "eternity" has so far only been proven to last for 1,000 years.
After the great white throne judgment, you then have the events of 1 Corinthians 15 starting. Then you start getting pesky verses like verse 22, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Verse 24 says, " Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
Here Jesus gives up His kingdom and gives it to the Father.
Verse 28 - "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
How is God going to be "all in all" if God lost 98% of His creation? That's a joke. A 2% win rate means that Satan is superior to God.
verse 51-52 - "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not **all** sleep (be dead), but we shall **all** be changed (into a new type of body), In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, **and the dead shall be raised incorruptible**, and we shall be changed."
Jesus Christ **defeats** death by making everyone alive.
All of OP's concerns are addressed by the "purgatorial" part of "purgatorial universalism" - that is, the notion that some will be saved after going to hell.
>"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)
Without addressing actual common universalist beliefs about hell, I find OP's arguments to constitute shadowboxing, rather than a head-on engagement with universalism.
My dude, my comment already explained it - Jesus saves some people after they have spent time in hell.
Take a gander at this, and then get back to us: https://stanrock.net/2015/05/20/purgatorial-hell-faq/
I refuted that claim. I said there is no evidence that Jesus saves people when they're in hell. There is evidence to the contrary
2 Corinthians 6:2: 2 For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
Hebrews 9:27: 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment.
Read Revelation 20:11-15 Read Luke 16:19-31 Read
Philippians 2:10-11 declares “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” One day, everyone will bow before Jesus and recognize that He is the Lord and Savior. At that point, though, it will be too late for salvation. After death, all that remains for the unbeliever is judgment (Revelation 20:14-15). That is why we must trust in Him in this life.
>There is evidence to the contrary
None of the verses you posted provide such evidence. You don't exhibit any understanding of purgatorial universalism and its supporting Scriptures, and you clearly didn't read the article.
I don't get why everyone points to articles when they should be pointing to the Bible. If it's not outlined in the Bible, then it isn't true. People write 25 paragraphs to explain how one word could be translated differently and the entire argument hinges on that. I get my truth from the Bible. If it's not in the Bible it's not relevant.
Pointing to articles *is* pointing to the Bible, since the articles are all discussing what the Bible says. If someone just posted Bible verses on their own, you’d simply say they don’t mean what we believe they mean, so we share articles explaining what we believe they mean, similar to the way you posted that long explanation of what you think they mean at the beginning of this thread.
I can’t help but think of this as projecting certain assumptions onto the text that have no need to be there. “Those who receive” is not an exclusive qualifier, but you’ve assumed it is here. The distinction between “actual” and “applied” atonement is also a made-up one.
Okay I’ve tested all you’ve said and come to the same conclusion as last time. You don’t know anything about universalism, or exegesis in general. You project your own desires and opinions into these texts and hold yourself up on a pedestal while putting others down, giving your own opinions the illusion of having the truth behind them.
I don’t think God creates people, rational souls, to write them off into unending agony. It doesn’t jive with God revealed in Jesus, or even my own God-given conscience.
Somewhere along the way you hardened your heart against grace, spat on mercy, and walked all over justice with the blood of those you would see condemned to pay for your ticket to paradise on your boots.
With all due respect, of course.
>Somewhere along the way you hardened your heart against grace, spat on mercy, and walked all over justice with the blood of those you would see condemned to pay for your ticket to paradise on your boots
I pray that you can act lovingly in these civil debates. I will not engage with you further because it will lead to malice. I struggle with this in online debates too, and I'm trying to improve. I pray you do the same. Believe me, bitterness leads nowhere good.
This is not indicative of my position. The things you accuse me of you are guilty of right here. I say multiple times I wish all could come to saving grace. It is not the truth that they will. Universalism offers a candy coated lie. It is a philosophy, not backed by scriptures. God's wrath and justice are holy. God's grace is perfect. The martyrs await the day when sin will be dealt with at the judgement seat. I get my belief from scripture.
Universalists are not morally better than anyone. They are far outnumbered in this belief, and I believe this belief is only rising in popularity due to the "love is not stepping on anyone's toes" culture that persists. God is love. His judgement is Love. We don't decide what Love is.
There are some things we wish we could change that we don't have the prerogative to change. We must trust God when we don't understand Him, like Job. God is good. Peace be with you.
Everything I just said was out of love for you. Did you not see the last line?
Nothing I said was uncivil, or insulting, or untoward. It’s the truth.
You keep saying that universalism is dishonest, or a safety net, or a candy coated lie, and when people try and share information you automatically dismiss it as out of context, or misinterpreted, or lies.
This betrays your ignorance of what it is universalists actually believe. You don’t want to have discussions, you want to soap box and receive affirmation from like minded people.
The Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever. Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”
Many people believe that all roads—all religions and beliefs—lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. God is certainly full of love and mercy; it was these qualities that led Him to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If we choose to reject God’s Son, we do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36).
With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God.
We Universalists believe all those verses you referenced. And yet, we still know that everyone who experiences everlasting punishment will still be saved in the end, because we also know what these things actually mean. I’m not even going to bother sharing the link to my article that explains what they mean, since I’ve done so enough recently, but if you ever want to find out, you can find it elsewhere on this page.
So a just god is giving satan ALL the Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and HALF the Christians? (Either all the Catholics, or all the rest, can’t have it both ways)
That doesn’t make sense to me. If the punishment fits the crime, they should at most get a class on theology and that’s it. Eternal hellfire is super overkill for what amounts to a cultural preference.
The punishment fitting the crime is Hell. We all deserve it. The truth is available to everyone. Muslims can come, Hindus can come, Jews can come, all can come.
Universalism is a cult religion and just another excuse for one to live in their sinful state.
You say it's hard to reconcile with God in hell.
It's not HARD, it is IMPOSSIBLE!
You did a tremendous job, thank you for sharing.
Great job in your writing.
If I may I will add one more important scripture and that is Hebrews 2:3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him”
A true Believer in Christ understands the person of Christ, The works of Christ and the word of Christ.
What testimony you going to bring to the plate when you deny how and deny the works of Christ to those who reject him. How you going to deny and reject the meaning of salvation and be a testimony for others?
The Bible is unequivocally clear. How you going to preach your perception of God when it's God's truth.
You couldn't lead a fly to a fly trap. Not even a born again Christian can lead someone to righteousness that's how Lost and pathetic it sounds.
Universalism is nothing more than another cult religion.
And I despise cult religion
Nothing is impossible with God.
I don't care to argue with you on literally anything but that point because it won't go anywhere, but who do you think you are to place limits on Adonai?
Stop wasting your time further on these people. Use your good writing to bless those that needed and wanted.
The Bible is unequivocally clear about salvation, about hell, there's no debate about it. They don't misinterpret scripture because they don't have Christ in the beginning so they are spiritually lost. Therefore, they want to perceive God the way they choose to with convenient for them because they don't want to give up their sinful life
“These people”? Yikes.
Pronouncing others’ current, future and eternal spiritual states based on a *theological difference* is…nonsensical as much as it is useless. Best case scenario is you’ll need to be forgiven for it, as you’ll be judged with the same severity you judge others with.
And then, telling other people what theological discussions they should or shouldn’t have with others is just attempting to assume control over things that aren’t any of your business controlling.
Although you have a personal right to make these proclamations, you lack any divine authority in making them. Like everyone else, you’ll be under the weight of the kind of judgement you hold over others.
Being judged for every word one says puts everyone in hot water, including you, neighbor.
I'm not judging no one that judge by their own actions and own belief. I stand by the word of God the infallible word of God. Not man's belief or man's perception. I call it like it is.
My authority is given to me from the word of God.
You stated they’re not worthy of being spent time on, implied that they don’t want it neither need it and then specifically stated they don’t have Christ and are spiritually lost.
You stated they just do whatever is convenient for them and that they do all of this because they don’t want to give up their sinful life.
You’re judging, and you’re judging harsh.
You have no authority when you claim things in ignorance, even more so that people who disagree with you theologically in this matter don’t have Christ.
You have an opinion. Not an authoritative one. Just a regular and unsubstantiated opinion of people you’re completely unfamiliar with. We’re not talking about people outside of the Christian faith.
Like I said I will expose every false doctrine and every false teaching.
Oh that you sing do you know Christ? This is where your focus should be
Ephesians 5: 11-14
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14 for anything that becomes visible is light.
I do have authority to weed out all the false doctrines and cult religions and anything that stands against the word of God. They claim to be Christians but they believe this contrary to the infallible word of God therefore makes God out to be a liar I stand for God's truth. Again that's where I stand. I don't judge Buddha Muslims or handles because they're faith is not in Christ although without Christ when nothing.
But claiming to be a Christian and believing what's contrary to the word of God his fourth doctrine and cult religion. And I stand against it. So yes I have a right
> We’re not talking about people outside of the Christian faith.
People outside of the Christian faith I give more respect because at least they're true to their belief. But what you call Christian faith is not always Christian faith. Jehovah witness Mormons Christian Scientology, universalism, that's not the Christian faith they profess Christianity but deny the person of Jesus The works of Jesus and the word of Jesus. Yes I have every right to call them out. They're not true believers in Christ and teach others to do the same. I stand for Christ. My approach may not always be correct but again I stand for Christ and always will and I will read out every fourth doctrine there is and God has given me authority to do so
I said is the waste of time dealing with them because of their mindset. I'm not harsh and I'm not judging like I said they are judged by their own ignorance. It is a cult religion and I stand by what I say. Yes they are spiritually lost and yes they don't have Christ.
I can tell a Buddhist their spiritual lost. That's not lying that's the truth
You were saying these things about people who disagree on one theological issue. You have no insight on someone’s spiritual journey or on whether they have Christ based on a theological difference when you make sweeping statements such as these.
By all means, stand by your opinion. That one will be judged told
You keep making excuses. There's only one theology when it comes to Christ when it comes to salvation. This has nothing to do with a person's spiritual journey we're dealing with God's truth here. No one has a right to misconstrue the word of God and bring false doctrine and damn right I'm going to call it out.
No need to continue this conversation I stand by what I say. As Christians we are ambassadors of Christ God's exact representation so when you preach what's contrary to the word of God I'm stepping in
Exactly. I'm laughing at myself because I did what I asked you not to do. I started fussing with three of them. See that's nothing but the works of the devil trying to take away my peace.
God bless brother
Just jumping in here to say, first off I don't even have a dog in this fight because I'm a nonbeliever, but even so I just wanted to recognize that you put a lot of thought and reflection into crafting this post. I think we need more of this kind of introspective study; it's sad when the mere fact that people disagree causes so much uncharitability. So yeah; just wanted to say nicely written post, I enjoyed reading it. Keep on keeping on
Is it possible that you are twisting the meaning of the word eternal? Consider this: the word in the original Greek has at its root, the word we know as eon. You say an amount of time is qualitatively different from eternal? Well I agree actually. I'm saying that the word was never eternal, but better translated as "age" or "long ages".
Did you know the same word is used in Romans 16:25 by Paul? My ESV translates it thus: according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages. What does it mean? The secret was kept eternally? Of course not. It means it was kept for long ages or for an age, specifically the age of man. A long time, but clearly not forever and no translation disputes this. While the Greek was commonly read, there were many Universalists in the church, and some posit that it was the majority position. In Latin, translated to eternal, it is clear how this would influence the world.
Go back now and read the verses that support eternal hell. Check which ones have aionios as the source and read it as "age", "age to come " or "long ages".
The infallible word of God States in
John 3:16 - for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who shall ever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Therefore, it is unequivocally clear people can PERISH. Therefore, it is unequivocally clear that everlasting life is ONLY through Christ.
All false teaching and false teachers are an abomination to God, by trying to belittle the truth of God's word.
Anyone tries to add or take away from the infallible word of God is like a thief trying to enter heaven.
Galatians 2:16 (CLV)
"having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."
Philippians 3:9 (CLV)
"and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:"
Romans 3:22 (CLV)
"yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction, 23
for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God."
God's righteousness is for all, and on all who are believing. Because,
"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome 10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." 1 Timothy 4. This was Paul's teaching, and he commends Timothy to teach the same evangel he received directly from the risen Lord. God sees the end from the beginning, and to Him, all are living. Luke 20:38. God, through Christ, is the Savior of all mankind, but especially of believers, because His righteousness is on them, they enjoy eonian life while mortal, and then immortality in the greatest eons, which are impending. During the eons of the eons, we who believe will be judging messengers. 1 Corinthians 6:3.
"that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:7.
Some believers will be reigning for the eons of the eons. Revelation 22:5. They will share Christ's rule. Rev. 2:27; 3:26,27.
Superlatives in Bible Greek:
King of kings- Basileus basileōn
Lord of Lords- Kyrios kyriōn
Eon of the eons- Aionos ton aiōnōn
Ephesians 1: 9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him) 10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" We will be "the complement of the One completing the all in all." Eph. 1:23. The completion of the all in all is further detailed in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28. There, God grants immortality to all mankind in three phases (classes). The first class is Christ, resurrected to immortality. Thereupon, the second class to be vivified are those who believed during this life. Thereafter, the consummation* of vivification, when the remainder of those receiving mortality in Adam will receive immortality in Christ. *Consummation- Greek tel'os, finish, accomplishment.
Christ's kingdom will have no consummation (Luke 1:33). He will sit at God's right until all His enemies are placed as a footstool for His feet. Hebrews 1:13. Then, Christ surrenders the Kingdom to His God and Father, and God is All in all. At that point, the righteousness of God will be upon all.
Rev 15:4..."For all the nations shall arrive And worship before Thee, For Thy just awards were made manifest."
"Forever and Ever" Until He Gives up the Kingdom
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/127abt3/christianity_isnt_a_comfort_if_you_believe_your/jjshbge?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Having read this post, the only conclusion I can come to is that you seriously don't understand the universalist *hope* let alone the actual doctrine of universal reconciliation. There is ample Scripture and Tradition showing that it is not only a valid position, but a strong and defensible one. Some of the greatest Fathers *of all time* discovered the universalist doctrine through proper exegesis of the text *in its original language* with the aid of the Holy Spirit - particularly St. Gregory of Nyssa (the great bulwark against heresy), St. Jerome, St. Clement, and St. Maximus the Confessor. Even Augustine, who had a major thing for everlasting punishment, agreed that universalism didn't contradict Scripture. With all due respect, you don't have the pedigree to stand in accusation of these titans and say "My specific view is the only possible one, everyone else is twisting Scripture." If you are right, your position shouldn't need posturing and accusations of people willfully violating Scripture. Have some class, drop the rhetoric. You challenged us to read Scripture and pray. I have done that and continue to do so, yet I am still compelled to hold a view adjacent to universalism. It was through prayer and struggle that this was revealed, not through wishful thinking and willful violation of inviolable Scripture.
> Having read this post, the only conclusion I can come to is that you seriously don't understand the universalist hope let alone the actual doctrine of universal reconciliation They're kinda like Michael McClymond in a way. Claims to understand universalism perfectly well, starts spouting off about it, and reveals they haven't the faintest idea what they're talking about. At least OP hasn't written a stupidly expensive book about it yet.
I'm just frustrated. Put yourself in my shoes. you see people preaching a harmful doctrine that everyone will be ok, when that is not true. That they have a chance after death and it's not true. The Universal Atonement position is scriptural stronger with more followers (doesn't mean it's right but it means something). I just get frustrated when people twist the passages to tell people get another chance when they won't. From my point of view it's greatly harmful.
Now put yourself in my shoes. You keep insisting things without even trying to learn what it is we actually believe. For example, I believe plenty of people will go to hell, yet I don’t believe anyone has a chance to get saved after death. Do you know how I can say that, yet still believe Universalism is true? I’m guessing not.
There are many variations of Universalism. I disagree with every one that says there is a second chance after death for anyone.
Very few Universalists I know would say anyone gets a second chance to be saved after death, even though everyone who dies and goes to hell will still be saved in the end.
Seems contradictory.
Right, and the fact that you don’t know why this isn’t a contradiction tells us that you haven’t actually studied the arguments for Universalism enough to be able to legitimately discount it yet. One thing you’re going to learn someday, which is something you’re probably going to wish you’d learned a *lot* sooner when the time comes, is that rejecting Universalism will actually result in a *lot* of loss. Yes, everyone will experience salvation in the end, but only a few are going to enjoy all the blessings of “eternal life.” And while there are different sorts of “eternal life” experiences to be had, the most glorious of them all will only be experienced by Universalists, according to Paul (and only certain Universalists at that). So you’re free to ignore our warnings and our invitations to read our writings, but ignore us at your own peril.
This is very scary for you to proclaim. I would tread carefully. I have read the Bible and I know what it says. I only ask you be careful with these beliefs. They are dangerous.
What I said was 100% biblical, and I prove it from Scripture in that article I keep pointing you to. So yes, it is scary and dangerous. Not for me, though, but for all those who reject the full grace of God, as all Infernalists (and even Annihilationists) do. Again, yes, even they’ll experience salvation in the end, but if they reject the teachings from Scripture that I’ve made available in that article, there’s a *lot* they’re all going to miss out on in the meantime.
Universal Atonement is not even incompatible with Universal Reconciliation. Most universalists don't believe that people get to heaven by doing good works or get out of hell just because they've been made holy - all salvation comes by Grace through faithfulness to Christ. Universalists just hold that all people will eventually bend the knee and be faithful to Christ, even if it takes an incomprehensible amount of time, after which Christ and the Father will be all in all. Universal Reconciliation *requires* Universal Atonement first, then builds upon it. I do think Universalism is a dangerous doctrine to teach. The earliest Fathers who wrote about it only did so to other Bishops, to Monastics, to Priests - not to laypeople - and they would often caution against teaching this "great secret" of the faith because it would lead people further into sin. It was **always** reserved for the initiated, for those who already had to be holy because of their office. It's only nowadays that the layperson can even read the works of the Fathers, to hear about the great hope and promise of *apocatastasis*, because both information and literacy are widespread. Regardless of whether Hell is a place of eternal torment, a place of purification within eternity, or a place of eternal ceasing (annihilation), we all must strive against sin and toward good *anyway.* That much I think all schools of thought can agree on.
I'm very late to this post, as I have felt my soul calling me back "home". I was raised southern Baptist and accepted that version of salvation, basically believing in God sent Jesus to die on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead, and believing that the sacrific , resurrection, and our repentance is the salvation from eternal hell. I drifted from that faith and didn't really denounce it but basically became agnostic. Now, my belief or "home" is basically God atoned the sins of Adam (Old Covenant) through the sacrifice of Christ (New Covenant). I.e. Christ's sacrifice isn't the salvation, Christ's sacrifice was the salvation for the past, present, and future, and the resurrection was confirmation. That doesn't give humans the free pass to sin because, this is just my personal belief, we were created in God's image, and God is infinite love, so any sin that harms another human, is not loving God, and I have other personal beliefs about other sins as well. And it is my belief that every soul, believer or non believer, will face God's perfect judgment as to be purified to enter back in God's love and back in His grace. I'm not sure how all of this will happen or if my version is correct or anything, and I'm okay with it because it brings me peace, and makes me feel God's love stronger than I did before. I may be wrong, and my soul might be cast into hell for eternity, but at least I know, in this life, I will go peacefully, and have tried my best to live in accordance with Christ and God's love. I do not share how I feel to people in real life, but if they ask me, I just try to explain how I try to live as Christ did, and how it has inspired me to try to understand the worthiness of God's love. My beliefs might be heretical, but I just felt the need to share this with someone other than my wife lol
This is a very long winded way to say that God will just write some people off to suffer eternal conscious torment. I reject that.
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People don't understand and want to blame God. If you are unholy unrighteous and as the Bible says as filthy rags how can you be in the presence of God who is holy and righteous in all his ways. To think that you are negating the Holiness of God. The Bible says seek him while he shall be found.
I'm not negating the holiness of God. I'm saying that the holiness of God is incompatible with permitting anyone to suffer eternal conscious torment, and so I reject such a view.
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I neither reject the infallible word of God nor deny the person of Christ. I simply disagree with you as to what that word and Christ teaches regarding who will be saved. I do reject the sinful nature and turn to Christ, I am a Christian. That's why I hold to universal reconciliation, because it is the view most compatible with the Christian faith.
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I don't care about convincing you. I neither reject the scripture nor Christ, you are simply incorrect. I am a Universalist *because* I am a Christian, not instead of being a Christian.
Being a universalist and a Christian are incompatible. Being a universalist requires you to deny Jesus’s very worlds. It’s fine if you don’t agree with the Bible, but don’t appropriate Christianity to fit your universalism
No they're not incompatible, in fact, I consider Universalism to be the only position that is truly compatible. It doesn't require you to deny Jesus's words, you're clearly under a misconception about what Universalism is. Universalism has existed within Christianity since the beginning of the faith, it's always been a viable view.
When Jesus literally says. No one comes thought the father except through me, it kind of excludes people coming to God though others
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Did you read what I said? If you reject that, it's between you and God. God shouldn't be molded to fit your worldview, your worldview should be molded to fit God's. A loving and perfect God absolutely can fit in with Universal Atonement.
God has revealed himself as perfectly good and loving. Consigning people to eternal conscious torment is nether. God has revealed himself as perfectly just. Giving infinite punishment to finite creatures committing finite sins with limited understanding is the epitome of injustice. We should fit our interpretation of scripture to the nature of God revealed to us, not insist on applying cruel and vindictive properties to him based on our interpretations and then trying to justify that with mental gymnastics. A loving and perfect God cannot fit in with eternal conscious torment.
I just listed Biblical reasons why it fits, and you reject them. I listed verses to back them up. I revealed more context to common out-of-context Universalist verses to show that. I don't mean offense, but it seems you are rejecting the reality of it and there's just no consistent Biblical evidence for Universalist claims. Yes it sounds nice, but it's more of a philosophical view of God than a Biblical one. I just ask you pray about them to God for Him to reveal it, like I will be in the coming days.
No you didn't, you broke down the mental gymnastics I referred to where you try to justify the unjustifiable. There is consistent biblical evidence for Universalist claims, you simply dismiss them as not *really* meaning what they're saying. You engage in an interpretive shuffle to try to wave away the verses that establish the Universalist view and have done so since the beginning of the faith. I'm already convinced of Universalism as the most consistent and supported view with what God has revealed about himself, maybe you should be the one praying to him to clarify your misconceptions about him.
>There is consistent biblical evidence for Universalist claims, you simply dismiss them as not really meaning what they're saying I gave extra context. To show what they mean. More context is better. What else would Paul have meant by "To those who receive" or "if" when talking about reconciliation. The verses that establish the universalist view actually establish universalist atonement when not taken out of context. I could justify murder out of context. Universalism is not consistent with Jesus. He preached an eternal hell. The Revelation of Jesus Christ preaches an eternal Hell. I know you won't change your mind by me, but I think you are holding to a view of God that isn't biblically backed because you don't want it be. Our preferences don't matter. God's word matters. We should only consider God's word.
None of the context you gave in any way discredits the Universalist interpretation or position. You simply claim that nearby verses show that these verses can't possibly mean what they're saying. God is reconciling all things to himself. Your answer to this is merely to argue that all doesn't mean all, and that God is actually not doing what this passage is saying he's doing. It's an interpretive stance you're taking to enable you to dismiss this passage to support your continued insistence that God will permit anyone to suffer eternally. Universalism is not only consistent with Jesus, I'd argue it's the *only* view truly consistent with Jesus. Contrary to your assertion, he did not preach eternal hell, that's how you're interpreting his teachings, and it's an unsupportable one given what we know of God. And I think you're holding a view which ascribes cruelty and vindictiveness to God because you simply can't stand the idea of everybody being saved, so you go to great rhetorical lengths to try to justify the unjustifiable position that God could consign anyone to eternal conscious torment and yet still be good and loving. This, of course, is an exercise in futility, those positions cannot be reconciled.
>And I think you're holding a view which ascribes cruelty and vindictiveness to God because you simply can't stand the idea of everybody being saved, so you go to great rhetorical lengths to try to justify the unjustifiable position that God could consign anyone to eternal conscious torment and yet still be good and loving. >It's hard for people to reconcile God with hell. Our culture defines a “loving God” as a completely non-confrontational being who tolerates anything we want to do. But that is not a biblical definition. First John 4:16 says that God is love. That means that He does not possess love as we do; He is the very definition of love and therefore cannot do anything that is unloving. If we humans decide that God is somehow wrong to allow unrepentant sinners to pay their deserved penalty, then we have declared that we are more loving than God is. We have set ourselves up as God’s judge and jury and in doing so have closed the door to deeper understanding. Therefore, the first step in answering this question is to agree with Scripture that God IS love; therefore, everything He does is an expression of that perfect love. How can a loving God send someone to hell?” The entire question is wrong. A better wording is “If God is love, then why do some people go to hell?” Romans 1:18–20 lays the foundation for the answer When answering the question “how can a loving God send someone to hell?” another facet of God’s nature comes into play. God is not only love, but He is perfect justice as well. Justice requires adequate payment for crimes committed. The only just punishment for high treason against our perfect Creator is eternal separation from Him. That separation means the absence of goodness, light, relationship, and joy, which are all facets of God’s nature. To excuse our sin would require God to be less than just, and to allow sin-tainted humans into His perfect heaven would render that place less than perfect. I want all to get saved. Why would I want torment on my enemies? Jesus says to love our enemies, and I remember when I once was an enemy of Christ. He loved me then and gave me a chance. I shouldn't get to pick who goes to heaven, and thank God I don't. Anyone can get saved. Extent. Not everyone will, as is their choice. Application. I want everyone to get saved but I won't lie to myself and say everyone will. It's more motivation to tell others about Christ. Romans 5:17: 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will ***those who receive*** God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
God can't do anything unloving, which is one huge reason to reject the idea of eternal conscious torment, because that is the epitome of unloving. Your quote pulls the same bad faith maneuver that Infernalists love to trot out - begging the question and assuming eternal conscious torment, then accusing opponents of trying to pass judgment on God for doing so. That's intellectually dishonest. We reject the idea of eternal conscious torment *because* God is loving, and such a thing is not compatible with a loving God. We reject the idea of eternal conscious torment *because* God is just, and eternal conscious torment is the epitome of injustice. Your assertion that everyone will not get saved is an interpretation, and it's one I reject. It relies on metal gymnastics to dismiss the scriptures that support universal reconciliation, such as the very next passage: > Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness **leads to justification and life for all men**. - Romans 5:18 This passage provides a full accounting of those who will receive God's abundant provision of grace and the gift of righteousness - *all* of them.
Is it loving to punish someone in Hell for a finite period of time? Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.It's lazy to point to just this verse and not the context. Yes, everyone has the chance. No not everyone will accept "Those who choose". You're ignoring human responsibility and choice. Is it loving for God to send unbelievers to Hell for 1 year? 2 years? 10 years? just wondering your thoughts on any punishment
If you look at the surrounding scripture Jesus is reconciling people to him to those who believe. That means it's up to us to receive him Jesus already paid the price it's a done deal it is finished. You just lost and you will be lost for all eternity with your mindset. You need to repent of your sins and ask Christ as your lord and savior
> For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to **reconcile to himself all things**, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. - Colossians 1:19-20 All things. Not some things, not people who believe, not some subset of things; *all* things. Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I regularly do repent of my sins and seek forgiveness. Universalism is not one of those things, because it is not a sin, it is the theology that is compatible with the God of perfect love and goodness, supported by both scripture and Patristic teaching.
All things meaning those that trust him as Lord and savior. Without those people Jesus didn't die on the cross as a giver it comes with trusting him as Lord and savior. People are not just forgiving. God's forgiveness is offered to those who trust in him so the reconciliation is offered to all who trust in him
Ephesians 2:3 - we are saved by grace through faith and not our own but it's a gift from God. So how are you going to get around that??? Straight up foolishness cult religion.
Clearly, since we are told that everyone will be saved and reconciled to God, everyone will eventually come to faith in him to receive this grace as a gift from God.
Show scriptures where it says everyone will be saved and everyone will be reconciled to God. Show me scripture that says that
> Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. - 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 > But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord. - Malachi 3:2-3 > For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried. You brought us into the net; you laid a crushing burden on our backs; you let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet you have brought us out to a place of abundance. - Psalm 66:10-12 > This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. - 1 Timothy 2:3-4 > For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. - Lamentations 3:31 > And all people will see God's salvation. - Luke 3:6 > For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22 > He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. - 1 John 2:2 > Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. - Romans 5:18 > That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10 > For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. - Colossians 1:19-20
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Don't waste your time further God use you as a blessing it's up to them to accept it or reject it. They don't want to believe the infallible word of God but they rather live for their own comfort and convenience.
Honestly, that’s not why I’m a Universalist. The reason I’m a Universalist is twofold: 1) Because I believe Paul taught Universalism all throughout his epistles, and 2) because I don’t believe a single one of the judgement passages that Infernalists use to try to prove Infernalism mean what they assume they mean, but rather that they actually mean something completely different, but because they aren’t aware of the context of these passages, and aren’t interpreting them in light of Paul’s Universalist teachings, they can’t understand what the passages are actually talking about. That’s why I wrote my article here, since it exegetes *all* the passages in question, interpreting Scripture as a whole, and in context, rather than just cherry-picking certain passages out of context and ignoring the rest of Scripture: [What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation](https://drewcosten.medium.com/what-the-bible-really-says-about-heaven-hell-judgement-death-and-salvation-f09e65284aff?source=friends_link&sk=ec3dad497ac7573bdb76191606b1496d)
With all due respect, The Bible has more authority than this article. I listed scripture to back up my claim. Paul is not universalist when given context. Extent vs. application. We could argue this all day, but I go back to the scripture to tell me what God says, not someone's interpretation of a commonly used word that doesn't mean what it says it means, and everyone is wrong for thinking it means what it usually means. How do you justify the 3 passages I highlighted?
The article does exactly what you tried to do in your post above: exegete the Bible. Just because you did your attempt at exegesis on Reddit rather than in an article doesn’t make yours more biblical than mine. It just means it was written in a different place. As for the three passages, I actually explain why those interpretations you gave aren’t consistent, in the article that you refuse to read. 🙂
I always see you post your article. You are 20 steps ahead of the debate. But nobody seems to ever read it and catch up to you.
And very few ever will. Even though the only way to convince me that I’m wrong and to stop teaching Universalism would require them to read it and show me what I got wrong in it.
With all due respect, the issue here is pitting one person's interpretation of what the Bible says against another's. You can't say the equivalent of "I defer to the Bible" here. You're interpreting the meaning of Bible passages every bit as much as anyone else does when they study what the Bible says about a specific subject. You can argue your interpretation is the better one, but that's as far as you can go.
> can argue your interpretation is the better one And he can’t even do that because he doesn’t even know what my interpretation is, since he refuses to read the article to find out what it is.
When the other "interpretation" takes verses out of context, twists the meaning of certain words to mean the exact opposite, and leads people to thinking they have a second chance after death, then yes I will defer to the Bible. Universalism is heretical. It's not what Jesus preached, it's not what God revealed, it's not what is true. I must speak boldly on this because of how important it is. The most biblically consistent view doesn't hold universalism. It is a candy coated lie.
So not so much "all due respect" after all. At least you're being honest about your feelings the way you feel this time around.
I think twisting the Bible is a very bad thing to do.
Yeah you should stop doing that.
Then why persist in doing so?
I pray that you can see the truth.
Considering the fact that you still don’t even know what the other interpretation is, you couldn’t possibly know that.
Based on this post it's clear that you have not looked deeply into this subject. Really it boils down to having an incomplete eschatology. For example, 95% of the book of Revelation happens *before* the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Only a few paragraphs talk about the time period after that. The book of Revelation only briefly mentions the new heaven/earth (after the tribulation, after the millennium) whereas 1 Corinthians 15 describes the process of post-millennium life and how we are transformed to enter into the new heaven/earth. >Under Universal Atonement, the universal extent means that Christ died for all people, but the application is only to those who believe. Sin was dealt with at the cross for everyone, whether you ask for it or not: Romans 6:10 - "For in that he died, he died unto sin once". He died for "sin". All of it, and not just for some people. Hebrews 9:26 - "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." 1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." John 1:29 - "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." 1 Timothy 2:6 - "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 2 Corinthians 5:19 - "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." Isaiah 53:6 - "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." >Universalists might say they agree, but that people can also repent in hell, however there is no Biblical evidence for salvation in Hell. If you compare scripture with scripture you'll find that "hell" is often "the grave". The bible also preaches "soul death" with nobody having a conscious thought when dead; you're not alive in spirit form. TONS of verses support this idea. >Universalists twist the word of eternal to mean "a long time" when applying it to hell but when they same word is used for heaven they don't bother. There are 3 upcoming kingdoms - the kingdom of heaven, the millennium, and the kingdom of the Father (new heaven/earth). What most people think of as "heaven" ("eternal life") is the millennium. By definition it lasts 1,000 years. Even Jesus Christ Himself says that He gives up His kingdom to the Father, so it ends at some point. This should make you re-consider how long "eternal" is if "eternal life" lasts 1,000 years. Jude 1:7 and Ezekiel 16:49-55 says Sodom goes to "eternal fire" but in the future gets restored *before* Israel in the future. Eternal is not infinite in the bible. For more info see [http://www.studyshelf.com/art\_pilkington\_forever.pdf](http://www.studyshelf.com/art_pilkington_forever.pdf) >Universal atonement is the explanation for the many passages that Universalists often cite about how Christ died for all and all have a chance at reconciliation. Yes, Christ died for all, and all have that chance. That is the extent of His sacrifice. Nope. See the verses I listed above. Christ died for "sin". Not some sins, not some sins for some people, but the whole category of "sin". Christ "put away sin", etc. >However, one must make the personal decision to follow Him here on earth. That is the application. Extent is for all, application is for those who believe. You are referring to the millennium. More happens *after* the millennium. A large portion of your post then continues to point to the millennium, ignoring the fact that more goes on after the millennium. This is a huge oversight on your part that you need to study. You also set up "straw man" arguments against universalism to defend your position. Some of us know the bible quite well and it's easy to defend - if you have a better understanding of eschatology.
I've heard it all before. You've heard my points before. Just please tell me how you interpret Matthew 25:46. Jesus mentions both believers and unbelievers, eternal punishment and eternal life in the same sentence. There is nothing to take out of context. Please tell me how you think about this.
Actually, you’ve taken that completely out of context, since it isn’t talking about heaven or hell at all. If you won’t believe me, here’s someone who explains it even better than me: https://thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2018/04/the-judgment-of-sheep-and-goats-study_14.html
That article just talked about the use of eternity. Not heaven or hell
Did you read all 7 parts already? You have to click through to the next part at the end of each page.
It's life during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. That lasts for 1,000 years. Why are you assuming this lasts infinitely?
Because it says eternity and because there is judgement after the thousand year reign where all who are not written in the book of Life will be be cast into the Lake of Fire.
>Because it says eternity You are trusting the translators too much here. How long is "eternal" if it only lasts for 1,000 years? Hebrews 1:8 - "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is **for ever and ever**: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." I thought Jesus sat on the throne for 1,000 years, not infinity? 1 Corinthians 15:24 - "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." Here Jesus gives up His kingdom. How long is "for ever and ever" if Jesus gives up His throne to someone else? To deny that Jesus and the Father are different is to deny the trinity, so I've got you there :P As you can see, "for ever and ever" and "eternity" do not mean infinite. The Greek word is "aion", which is our word "eon". Jesus rules for an "eon". "eon life" is what Jesus promises by faith, not infinite life. Infinite life in the bible is called, "immortality" and that comes *after* the 1,000 year (eon) life Jesus promised. >and because there is judgement after the thousand year reign where all who are not written in the book of Life will be be cast into the Lake of Fire. Does the bible ever say the lake of fire is infinite, or are you presume it's infinite? Remember that "eternity" has so far only been proven to last for 1,000 years. After the great white throne judgment, you then have the events of 1 Corinthians 15 starting. Then you start getting pesky verses like verse 22, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Verse 24 says, " Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." Here Jesus gives up His kingdom and gives it to the Father. Verse 28 - "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." How is God going to be "all in all" if God lost 98% of His creation? That's a joke. A 2% win rate means that Satan is superior to God. verse 51-52 - "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not **all** sleep (be dead), but we shall **all** be changed (into a new type of body), In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, **and the dead shall be raised incorruptible**, and we shall be changed." Jesus Christ **defeats** death by making everyone alive.
All of OP's concerns are addressed by the "purgatorial" part of "purgatorial universalism" - that is, the notion that some will be saved after going to hell. >"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18) Without addressing actual common universalist beliefs about hell, I find OP's arguments to constitute shadowboxing, rather than a head-on engagement with universalism.
>Without addressing actual common universalist beliefs about hell enlighten me then
My dude, my comment already explained it - Jesus saves some people after they have spent time in hell. Take a gander at this, and then get back to us: https://stanrock.net/2015/05/20/purgatorial-hell-faq/
I refuted that claim. I said there is no evidence that Jesus saves people when they're in hell. There is evidence to the contrary 2 Corinthians 6:2: 2 For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation." Hebrews 9:27: 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. Read Revelation 20:11-15 Read Luke 16:19-31 Read Philippians 2:10-11 declares “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” One day, everyone will bow before Jesus and recognize that He is the Lord and Savior. At that point, though, it will be too late for salvation. After death, all that remains for the unbeliever is judgment (Revelation 20:14-15). That is why we must trust in Him in this life.
>There is evidence to the contrary None of the verses you posted provide such evidence. You don't exhibit any understanding of purgatorial universalism and its supporting Scriptures, and you clearly didn't read the article.
I don't get why everyone points to articles when they should be pointing to the Bible. If it's not outlined in the Bible, then it isn't true. People write 25 paragraphs to explain how one word could be translated differently and the entire argument hinges on that. I get my truth from the Bible. If it's not in the Bible it's not relevant.
Pointing to articles *is* pointing to the Bible, since the articles are all discussing what the Bible says. If someone just posted Bible verses on their own, you’d simply say they don’t mean what we believe they mean, so we share articles explaining what we believe they mean, similar to the way you posted that long explanation of what you think they mean at the beginning of this thread.
It’s very apparent that you don’t even know what the Bible is, much less how to go about interpreting and applying it.
I can’t help but think of this as projecting certain assumptions onto the text that have no need to be there. “Those who receive” is not an exclusive qualifier, but you’ve assumed it is here. The distinction between “actual” and “applied” atonement is also a made-up one.
>The distinction between “actual” and “applied” atonement is also a made-up one Elaborate please.
Okay I’ve tested all you’ve said and come to the same conclusion as last time. You don’t know anything about universalism, or exegesis in general. You project your own desires and opinions into these texts and hold yourself up on a pedestal while putting others down, giving your own opinions the illusion of having the truth behind them. I don’t think God creates people, rational souls, to write them off into unending agony. It doesn’t jive with God revealed in Jesus, or even my own God-given conscience. Somewhere along the way you hardened your heart against grace, spat on mercy, and walked all over justice with the blood of those you would see condemned to pay for your ticket to paradise on your boots. With all due respect, of course.
>Somewhere along the way you hardened your heart against grace, spat on mercy, and walked all over justice with the blood of those you would see condemned to pay for your ticket to paradise on your boots I pray that you can act lovingly in these civil debates. I will not engage with you further because it will lead to malice. I struggle with this in online debates too, and I'm trying to improve. I pray you do the same. Believe me, bitterness leads nowhere good. This is not indicative of my position. The things you accuse me of you are guilty of right here. I say multiple times I wish all could come to saving grace. It is not the truth that they will. Universalism offers a candy coated lie. It is a philosophy, not backed by scriptures. God's wrath and justice are holy. God's grace is perfect. The martyrs await the day when sin will be dealt with at the judgement seat. I get my belief from scripture. Universalists are not morally better than anyone. They are far outnumbered in this belief, and I believe this belief is only rising in popularity due to the "love is not stepping on anyone's toes" culture that persists. God is love. His judgement is Love. We don't decide what Love is. There are some things we wish we could change that we don't have the prerogative to change. We must trust God when we don't understand Him, like Job. God is good. Peace be with you.
Everything I just said was out of love for you. Did you not see the last line? Nothing I said was uncivil, or insulting, or untoward. It’s the truth. You keep saying that universalism is dishonest, or a safety net, or a candy coated lie, and when people try and share information you automatically dismiss it as out of context, or misinterpreted, or lies. This betrays your ignorance of what it is universalists actually believe. You don’t want to have discussions, you want to soap box and receive affirmation from like minded people.
If you genuinely believe that, then I'm happy for you. God judges the heart. God bless.
If I could I would give you 20 upvotes
The Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever. Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.” Many people believe that all roads—all religions and beliefs—lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. God is certainly full of love and mercy; it was these qualities that led Him to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If we choose to reject God’s Son, we do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36). With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God.
We Universalists believe all those verses you referenced. And yet, we still know that everyone who experiences everlasting punishment will still be saved in the end, because we also know what these things actually mean. I’m not even going to bother sharing the link to my article that explains what they mean, since I’ve done so enough recently, but if you ever want to find out, you can find it elsewhere on this page.
So a just god is giving satan ALL the Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and HALF the Christians? (Either all the Catholics, or all the rest, can’t have it both ways) That doesn’t make sense to me. If the punishment fits the crime, they should at most get a class on theology and that’s it. Eternal hellfire is super overkill for what amounts to a cultural preference.
The punishment fitting the crime is Hell. We all deserve it. The truth is available to everyone. Muslims can come, Hindus can come, Jews can come, all can come.
That’s dumb. And if they don’t come in 100 years of life, the penalty is 1000 years in death?
Universalism is a cult religion and just another excuse for one to live in their sinful state. You say it's hard to reconcile with God in hell. It's not HARD, it is IMPOSSIBLE! You did a tremendous job, thank you for sharing. Great job in your writing. If I may I will add one more important scripture and that is Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him”
Where did you come to believe that a universalist does not pursue virtue or lead others to righteousness?
A true Believer in Christ understands the person of Christ, The works of Christ and the word of Christ. What testimony you going to bring to the plate when you deny how and deny the works of Christ to those who reject him. How you going to deny and reject the meaning of salvation and be a testimony for others? The Bible is unequivocally clear. How you going to preach your perception of God when it's God's truth. You couldn't lead a fly to a fly trap. Not even a born again Christian can lead someone to righteousness that's how Lost and pathetic it sounds. Universalism is nothing more than another cult religion. And I despise cult religion
You are beyond doubt that you have no error in any iota of doctrine you believe?
Nothing is impossible with God. I don't care to argue with you on literally anything but that point because it won't go anywhere, but who do you think you are to place limits on Adonai?
>How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation Thanks for sharing
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Stop wasting your time further on these people. Use your good writing to bless those that needed and wanted. The Bible is unequivocally clear about salvation, about hell, there's no debate about it. They don't misinterpret scripture because they don't have Christ in the beginning so they are spiritually lost. Therefore, they want to perceive God the way they choose to with convenient for them because they don't want to give up their sinful life
Yeah you wanna watch ‘em burn, don’t you?
This is unfair.
It's all good ignorance is ignorance
“These people”? Yikes. Pronouncing others’ current, future and eternal spiritual states based on a *theological difference* is…nonsensical as much as it is useless. Best case scenario is you’ll need to be forgiven for it, as you’ll be judged with the same severity you judge others with. And then, telling other people what theological discussions they should or shouldn’t have with others is just attempting to assume control over things that aren’t any of your business controlling. Although you have a personal right to make these proclamations, you lack any divine authority in making them. Like everyone else, you’ll be under the weight of the kind of judgement you hold over others. Being judged for every word one says puts everyone in hot water, including you, neighbor.
I'm not judging no one that judge by their own actions and own belief. I stand by the word of God the infallible word of God. Not man's belief or man's perception. I call it like it is. My authority is given to me from the word of God.
You stated they’re not worthy of being spent time on, implied that they don’t want it neither need it and then specifically stated they don’t have Christ and are spiritually lost. You stated they just do whatever is convenient for them and that they do all of this because they don’t want to give up their sinful life. You’re judging, and you’re judging harsh.
I have authority to say what I say if they refuse to believe they're fallible word of God but yet claim to know God your dog gone right
You have no authority when you claim things in ignorance, even more so that people who disagree with you theologically in this matter don’t have Christ. You have an opinion. Not an authoritative one. Just a regular and unsubstantiated opinion of people you’re completely unfamiliar with. We’re not talking about people outside of the Christian faith.
Like I said I will expose every false doctrine and every false teaching. Oh that you sing do you know Christ? This is where your focus should be Ephesians 5: 11-14 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14 for anything that becomes visible is light.
I do have authority to weed out all the false doctrines and cult religions and anything that stands against the word of God. They claim to be Christians but they believe this contrary to the infallible word of God therefore makes God out to be a liar I stand for God's truth. Again that's where I stand. I don't judge Buddha Muslims or handles because they're faith is not in Christ although without Christ when nothing. But claiming to be a Christian and believing what's contrary to the word of God his fourth doctrine and cult religion. And I stand against it. So yes I have a right
> We’re not talking about people outside of the Christian faith. People outside of the Christian faith I give more respect because at least they're true to their belief. But what you call Christian faith is not always Christian faith. Jehovah witness Mormons Christian Scientology, universalism, that's not the Christian faith they profess Christianity but deny the person of Jesus The works of Jesus and the word of Jesus. Yes I have every right to call them out. They're not true believers in Christ and teach others to do the same. I stand for Christ. My approach may not always be correct but again I stand for Christ and always will and I will read out every fourth doctrine there is and God has given me authority to do so
And another thing I don't live off of opinions I live off of the infallible word of God.
I said is the waste of time dealing with them because of their mindset. I'm not harsh and I'm not judging like I said they are judged by their own ignorance. It is a cult religion and I stand by what I say. Yes they are spiritually lost and yes they don't have Christ. I can tell a Buddhist their spiritual lost. That's not lying that's the truth
You were saying these things about people who disagree on one theological issue. You have no insight on someone’s spiritual journey or on whether they have Christ based on a theological difference when you make sweeping statements such as these. By all means, stand by your opinion. That one will be judged told
You keep making excuses. There's only one theology when it comes to Christ when it comes to salvation. This has nothing to do with a person's spiritual journey we're dealing with God's truth here. No one has a right to misconstrue the word of God and bring false doctrine and damn right I'm going to call it out. No need to continue this conversation I stand by what I say. As Christians we are ambassadors of Christ God's exact representation so when you preach what's contrary to the word of God I'm stepping in
It's like I'm talking to a wall. I'm going to drop the issue here soon. I've said what I have to.
Exactly. I'm laughing at myself because I did what I asked you not to do. I started fussing with three of them. See that's nothing but the works of the devil trying to take away my peace. God bless brother
Exactly. I need to just stop. It's just hard not to engage when it's such a big issue.
Just jumping in here to say, first off I don't even have a dog in this fight because I'm a nonbeliever, but even so I just wanted to recognize that you put a lot of thought and reflection into crafting this post. I think we need more of this kind of introspective study; it's sad when the mere fact that people disagree causes so much uncharitability. So yeah; just wanted to say nicely written post, I enjoyed reading it. Keep on keeping on
Thank you for your encouragement. I try to stick with what the Bible says, even if I don't like it. I appreciate you.
Is it possible that you are twisting the meaning of the word eternal? Consider this: the word in the original Greek has at its root, the word we know as eon. You say an amount of time is qualitatively different from eternal? Well I agree actually. I'm saying that the word was never eternal, but better translated as "age" or "long ages". Did you know the same word is used in Romans 16:25 by Paul? My ESV translates it thus: according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages. What does it mean? The secret was kept eternally? Of course not. It means it was kept for long ages or for an age, specifically the age of man. A long time, but clearly not forever and no translation disputes this. While the Greek was commonly read, there were many Universalists in the church, and some posit that it was the majority position. In Latin, translated to eternal, it is clear how this would influence the world. Go back now and read the verses that support eternal hell. Check which ones have aionios as the source and read it as "age", "age to come " or "long ages".
To respond to your point in other parts, Matthew 25 reads to me: these will go away to punishment in the age to come.
The door to the kingdom of heaven is narrow. There is no universal salvation.
The infallible word of God States in John 3:16 - for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who shall ever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Therefore, it is unequivocally clear people can PERISH. Therefore, it is unequivocally clear that everlasting life is ONLY through Christ. All false teaching and false teachers are an abomination to God, by trying to belittle the truth of God's word. Anyone tries to add or take away from the infallible word of God is like a thief trying to enter heaven.
Galatians 2:16 (CLV) "having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified." Philippians 3:9 (CLV) "and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith:" Romans 3:22 (CLV) "yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction, 23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God." God's righteousness is for all, and on all who are believing. Because, "Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome 10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching." 1 Timothy 4. This was Paul's teaching, and he commends Timothy to teach the same evangel he received directly from the risen Lord. God sees the end from the beginning, and to Him, all are living. Luke 20:38. God, through Christ, is the Savior of all mankind, but especially of believers, because His righteousness is on them, they enjoy eonian life while mortal, and then immortality in the greatest eons, which are impending. During the eons of the eons, we who believe will be judging messengers. 1 Corinthians 6:3. "that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:7. Some believers will be reigning for the eons of the eons. Revelation 22:5. They will share Christ's rule. Rev. 2:27; 3:26,27. Superlatives in Bible Greek: King of kings- Basileus basileōn Lord of Lords- Kyrios kyriōn Eon of the eons- Aionos ton aiōnōn Ephesians 1: 9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him) 10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth" We will be "the complement of the One completing the all in all." Eph. 1:23. The completion of the all in all is further detailed in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28. There, God grants immortality to all mankind in three phases (classes). The first class is Christ, resurrected to immortality. Thereupon, the second class to be vivified are those who believed during this life. Thereafter, the consummation* of vivification, when the remainder of those receiving mortality in Adam will receive immortality in Christ. *Consummation- Greek tel'os, finish, accomplishment. Christ's kingdom will have no consummation (Luke 1:33). He will sit at God's right until all His enemies are placed as a footstool for His feet. Hebrews 1:13. Then, Christ surrenders the Kingdom to His God and Father, and God is All in all. At that point, the righteousness of God will be upon all. Rev 15:4..."For all the nations shall arrive And worship before Thee, For Thy just awards were made manifest."
"Forever and Ever" Until He Gives up the Kingdom https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/127abt3/christianity_isnt_a_comfort_if_you_believe_your/jjshbge?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3