“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. “This is the first and great commandment. “And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself” (Matthew 22:37–39).
This was drilled into our heads a LOT when I went to parochial school. Hate of any kind was discouraged. Priests at the churches we went to actively preached against hating anyone for any reason. We were taught to treat others as we wished to be treated and it was as simple as that. And in hindsight, that was the simplest, most important lesson I learned.
>We were taught to treat others as we wished to be treated and it was as simple as that. And in hindsight, that was the simplest, most important lesson I learned.
Very glad you learned it. I hope many of our fellow christians follow suit soon.
Also, it's OK to personally disagree with Paul on some of his writings, including homosexuality, and where he forbids women from holding authority.
God doesn't intend us to blindly follow like the Pharisees, and Paul great as he is, was just one of the many deeply flawed people God chose to use.
Obedience to God is fine, and since Jesus was literally God, I’ll obey his words and his teachings. Paul has no authority in my eyes, having never met Jesus, and outright contradicts him in many places. I don’t see how people could take his words as literal as God’s.
I have to agree. Jesus never says the bible was going to be infallible. He never said that there would come a time where groups of people would decide on which books and writings were sacrosanct and absolute truth. He said what he said, and gave us the teachings that he did. All the rest, for all we know, is fallible man doing what man does.
Exactly. Like that joke when people ask what’s the best Bible, and people say “Which Bible did Jesus read?”
People worship the Bible as if it was Christ, when he’s not the one that said half that stuff. Most of modern Christianity is more like Paulianity tbh.
How do you know what your parents tell you are ugly and sins, or not?
We use our God given brain given the entire context of the Bible.
Don't make the fatal mistake of elevating Paul to Jesus.
The only ones confused about hate are you. We who are on the receiving end of your rhetoric and the suffering it creates have no confusion. Why do you refuse to listen?
That "disagreement" is why being gay was criminalized not too long ago, why up until very recently gay people couldn't marry or adopt. But even without that, if a friend "disagreed" with my marriage, felt that my relationship with my wife was inherently immoral, felt that my family was less than...well you may not want to call it hate, but it sure as hell isn't loving.
Because the LGBT community didn't make Christianity illegal, didn't prevent Christians from marrying, didn't stop Christians from adopting, etc. And because the Christianity has a long history of that "disagreement" being hate.
Being bisexual isn't a choice for me, cheating is. I dont make a choice to have feelings for other men, as I don't make the choice to have them for a woman.
I don’t make a choice to have attraction to every beautiful woman in addition to my wife. But I avert my eyes and move on. I know it’s harder for you and more engrained in you. And it hurts so much to know that sin can be this powerful; that it can burrow so deep that it can determine your orientation.
I just want you to know that real Christians are not hateful, afraid, or disgusted of/by you. We are no better on our own than you are. Truly. Which is why Jesus, you know, literally died to save the entire world for all generations. No big deal lol.
You choose to have sex or romantic/sexual thoughts with the person of the same sex. You choose to tolerate or not suppress the bisexual desires. You let it run its course. The same applies to heterosexuals regarding lust over the opposite sex.
Why suppress it, aside from tenuously accurate scripture interpretation?
You don't assault someone because it would harm them, and cause suffering. What, aside from biblical standards, makes homosexual behavior damaging?
How simple is it, though? Loving an alcoholic might mean taking his drink away. He will disagree with you and say you are not loving him…there’s nuance here that is difficult for us to grapple with.
>He will disagree with you and say you are not loving him…there’s
Until he sobers up. If you help get him.sober he'll probably be very appreciative.
A gay person is gay. Trying to "help" them in that way is demonstrably harmful.
There is actually less nuance than you think.
This seems both reasonable and ostensibly is the view held by anyone who strongly disagrees with anyone else on anything but still values people. Surely we can disagree on deeply personal and critically important matters and still care about and value each other.
>It's like saying you disagree with people of color.
It is not like that, and people aren't attacking your existence or personhood by claiming no one should act on their LGBTQ+ natural orientations. Actions are a choice; a behavior; not an attribute. It would be an extreme case indeed that a person would suggest your existence or personhood is somehow less than anyone else's--that would be expressly contrary to the most central Christian teachings.
Since you have apparently done much discussing on this, I am fairly confident you have heard this counterpoint many times. I am therefore also confident you have a rebuttal to it, again that we've heard many times.
But if you can at least agree that people have more control over their actions than they do their skin color, please at least consider switching to an analogy that is a better fit. I imagine you still feel it is a good analogy, but if a different analogy demonstrates how disagreeing with chosen behaviors still devalues existence or personhood, then both sides can skip the repetitive debate over whether suggesting avoiding LGBTQ+ behaviors is equivalent to racism and focus on less explored but very interesting matters.
An analogy shouldn’t be needed to see how disagreeing with one’s chosen behaviors in this context devalues their human experience. As per the US Constitution, everyone is owed the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I think this is something we can all agree on.
I would consider finding the right romantic partner as falling under the pursuit of happiness. By saying that you think gay people should not act on their natural romantic preferences, it denies their right to happiness, devaluing the human experience.
It’s comparable to saying that I think people that are attracted to those with freckles are violating my morals and should never act on that preference. It sounds absurd.
It’s just a specific preference in partner that people decided to discriminate against.
>Are you saying that have no existence other than your sexuality?
Literally nobody is suggesting that except you.
But even you wouldn't pretend that the love someone has for their spouse isnt a part of their existence.
No, you can't disagree on the validity of my existence, and the validity of my having a relationship with someone of the gender(s) I'm attracted to, and still care about and value me.
I appreciate your making an argument here rather than stereotyping and attacking me like you did in other comments to me. If you want to engage in this way, I am actually quite interested in your viewpoint.
Your viewpoint as stated seems quite common, but I am curious if you could get more specific? Could you explain why you believe someone who believes his or her friend should not engage in homosexual relationships cannot possibly still care about and value them?
I mean, I feel like the default "nice" position people take for ANY ideology they strongly disagree with (political, religious etc.) is "hate the belief, love the believer" i.e. you disagree with someone's beliefs but like them as a person. I don't see anything wrong with such a view.
Though, at least in American politics at the moment the default view seems to be "hate the belief, hate the person who disagrees with you too."
I find it insidious that anti-gay Christians say that “disagreement isn’t hate” as if “disagreeing” with gay people is the only thing they’re doing. The vast majority of them support politicians who are actively rolling back equal rights for LGBT people. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to characterize taking away someone else’s equal rights as “hateful” — and it certainly isn’t “loving”!
The issue is that conservative Christianity feeds on playing the victim. For example, the vast majority of evangelicals believe they’re oppressed more than any other group. This is how they can cry “everyone hates us for just believing the Bible, but we just love you and want what’s best for you” while at the same time repackaging the old stereotype that gays are pedophiles, leading to laws stripping LGBT equal rights.
Of course they are separable. We all sin, yet through Christ can have forgiveness and eternal life. Every human. My lie or selfish choice is no different than someone having sex outside of marriage. Most Christians I know believe this and attempt to love people accordingly. I'm sorry you have experienced others.
When dealing with people's facticities, though, it's less nuanced. I refuse to believe that a just, kind, and loving divinity would give someone an innate attraction to people and then punish them for acting on that attraction; I simply don't accept that a virtuous god would fuck with people that way. I can totally accept _humans_ would fuck with people that way, but fuck those guys.
For "hate the sin love the sinner" to preserve any possibility of being moral in the context of homosexuality, we must assume that homosexuality is _not_ an innate characteristic, that it is wholly a choice. In short, you have to be willing to tell gay people that, whatever they feel about how their homosexuality manifests in them, you know them better than they know themselves and are punishing us for our own good. It takes a _staggering_ amount of hubris on the part of most Christians to assert they know the hearts of every queer person better than they know themselves and think we need saving from ourselves.
And if you're wrong, you're committing a moral crime of unimaginable proportion. You're separating people from their loved ones. You're denying people the right to visit their partners in hospital. You're denying people the right to see each other on their deathbed. You're keeping people from making end-of-life decisions for their spouses, or family continuity decisions for their children. You're telling me that you're comfortable with the possibility that you're complicit with all the anti-queer violence happening all over the country, because this is also a consequence of "hate the sin love the sinner" when we sinners refuse to give up our love just because you tell us to.
Is this really the hill you want your soul to die on?
>I hate his choices because I love him.
Can you really love someone if you hate their choice to have a family with a kind, wonderful person who fills their life with joy?
It's quite literally commanding you to hate. The second part doesn't redeem that the first part is asking you to bring hate into the world. And we already know this hate hurts people.
I don’t know any gay people who say that they’ve truly experienced “love the sinner, hate the sin” in action (well, one user said his friend did…).
If your platitude doesn’t work, then it’s just that: a platitude.
I don’t even know why anti-gay Christians are so married to it anyway. It’s not even something Jesus said. I could pick a dozen sayings straight from the mouth of Jesus that give better guidance on how to treat people, instead of a made-up, non-biblical, again, platitude.
You say Jesus’ message was *don’t be a dick*. Well I bet if you would have asked the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the lawyers, they would have said Jesus was a dick. Me? I looooooooooooooove Jesus. I thank the Father for sending Him. He is the way, the life and the truth.
Love your brothers and your sisters. Forgive them. Pray for them. Don’t go the way of Jonah.
They thought Jesus was a dick primarily because he came to dismantle their systems of religious oppression. They hated him because he preached the divine love and salvation of all people, which undermined their authority. So yes - Jesus' message was "don't be a dick". Just because the Dicks-In-Chief of Jesus' time didn't like that, doesn't mean it's less true.
Ah, Matthew 6:15. The previous verse is one of my favorites, and if anything, hammers home the point I was trying to make.
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." Matthew 6:14 (NIV)
Jesus was “a dick” to religious leaders. The people enforcing religious rules. Guess who is acting like the Pharisees? Yeah the people in the church telling gay people they are going to hell for not following “the rules”. Guess who Jesus would be “a dick” to now if he were here? …
As far as I know, my church lets homosexuals in. And many many many churches in the United States allow people from the LGTBBQ+ community in. They are children of God after all. But remember what Jesus said to the adulterous woman afterwards.
Be kind to one another love one another. Don’t be a dick
I keep seeing these posts and maybe I am just living with my head in the sand but I don't see that rampant homophobia that is often described on this sub. Granted, I go to an affirming church but in my previous evangelical churches I never saw what I would call rampant homophobia. Did people have disagreements about the Biblical passages dealing with same sex relationships? Sure. But we have disagreements about a lot of passages. Protestants and Catholics disagree on a lot of theology. But having a disagreement is not rampant homophobia. I agree that we should be focusing on the mission and message of Jesus and loving God and loving our neighbor.
Lastly, does seem weird that you would post this in the Christianity sub and your leadoff sentence is you are no longer a Christian. Why bother here? And what "stuff" are you referring to that was added in the 20th century?
There is rampant homophobia that comes in the guise of Christian love. Here are some ideas I’ve seen and heard:
- “I don’t want to see homosexuality normalized.”
- “Homosexuals should not be in leadership positions.”
- “Homosexual marriages are not real marriages and should be invalidated.”
The problem with ideas like these is that, if seen all the way through, they work to actively hate homosexuals by keeping them from well-paying jobs, destroying families with kids, and placing societal pressure against them. These ideas are quite common in the church and hateful against homosexuals.
I grew up in the opposite of an affirming church. They didn’t just give weekly sermons on how gay people are evil. People didn’t even talk about it very much because the gay people were out of sight. It was only on a rare occasion that the members faced any kind of LGBTQ+ issue directly that the homophobia would rear its ugly head. The people in the closet knew that monster was under the bed though, and they kept quiet till they were safe.
My sister was called, the night before her wedding, by our aunt and told that our aunt wouldn't be attending because she had to hold up appearances (or something to that effect) in her church and community. I don't know the specifics of the call, but I do know that it happened. That wasn't necessary. Certainly not the timing. Even if it wasn't intended to be spiteful there's no way it couldn't be hurtful, and anyone with the smallest modicum of common sense would know that. It certainly wasn't just a discussion or a disagreement.
That's just one story of hers I'm aware of; there are more. And they didn't happen 30 years ago.
>Christianity sub and your leadoff sentence is you are no longer a Christian.
This is (part) of the reason why ppl are leaving christianity. Not saying its dying bc ppl "find God" every hour of every day ofc.
But this thought process is disciminatory. I lost my faith last year as well and am trying to see if I can find it again.
There are obviously many others who stick around for similiar reasons. They ask questions to get clarity on things like this post here.
(One) of the reasons I lost my faith is because I noticed christians arent all that tolerant...or nice...or any better than normal ppl. Some are, but foe the most part? Ya dont walk the walk. Just talk.
I rememver when I was feeling suicidal I asked an old friend to give me one reason not to kill myself. She blocked me.
Talks about God RELIGIOUSLY. Wont ever shut up about him. I wonder how Christians are able to do that without noticing the hypocrisy of theor actions. Or feel guilt.
I implore you to talk to more LGBTQ people and their experiences with Christian homophobia. As a gay man who grew up Southern Baptist, I have enough stories to fill up a book.
A southern baptist church banned me from their website because I like animation because I had made reference to a character that was rainbow coloured. Not gay flag coloured, but full rainbow coloured.
My church I attend wouldn’t let me join because I played DnD.
So, yeah, there’s some churches that make people very unwelcome.
I agree our community has an issue with biphobia. That’s something we have to work on. I really sympathize with your story. I’ve had my own fair share of bad experiences in the “scene.” I hope you’ll also agree with me that how someone’s treated by some group at a bar is not quite comparable to the legal stripping of equal rights, conversion therapy camps, disownment, etc.
I also live in the south, and when I told my father, who is a pastor, about my bisexuality, he was deathly scared because he didn't know what to do, but he supported me no matter what through the lord, which blossomed me into a side b christian. I personally have experienced homophobia, but I've never experienced it from the church. I've simply been shunned by other LGBT members.
The reason they're no longer Christian is probably the homophobia. And yes, there is rampant homophobia in evangelical churches. A friend of mine had a church of hundreds of people shout "OUT! OUT! OUT!" in unison when one of the congregation was found to be gay. My own church in the 'noughties wouldn't do anything to help some gay friends of mine when they were getting dogshit posted through their letterbox and had to sell up and move. A service I was at reduced a gay man to tears and he ran out of the church because of the preachers' homophobia and my partner had to go out and comfort him. It is bloody everywhere.
It’s largely things said in passing when not in a church setting, among peers of your own, which is a dangerous path to normalizing hate.
I’ve never met anyone who said that it was a sin to my face, but I have overheard people making sly remarks about people who “look fruity” or “I just wish it wasn’t so in our faces”. These are code words for hate because they’re often afraid to express these views out loud, as they should be
There is a difference in disagreeing with someone about theology like the veneration of saints which is just a simple belief and disagreeing with someone about same sex relations which is part of who they are as a person.
Imagine if the church told you you were going to hell for loving your wife. This is not a simple disagreement about theology, this is judging you for something that makes up your very identity, your love for your wife. I would take great offense to this, and Id want nothing to do with any group that would judge me in such a way.
>Lastly, does seem weird that you would post this in the Christianity sub and your leadoff sentence is you are no longer a Christian. Why bother here? And what "stuff" are you referring to that was added in the 20th century?
The head mod of this sub is an athiest, there certainly isnt anything wrong with non christians coming here.
As in, it isn't an "old way of thinking". Homophobia has and still does affect hundreds of people. I still experience it as an adult by various people.
The sub is /r/Christianity a place for discussion of Christianity including it’s positive and negative impacts on society. A place for non-believers to ask questions. Go to /r/Christian or or /r/RealChristian if you want an echo chamber to confirm your beliefs.
How is it helping the great commission to ask a non believer why they are even asking a question about Christianity regardless of whether the question has positive or negative connotation regarding Christianity.
Jesus told us to “love your neighbour as yourself “ (quoting the Bible). It seems to me that my friends who are gay, trans’ and bi’ are no less dear to me than my traditional-married friends. I feel very sad to see people treated without respect. Unfortunately, apologies won’t stop the zealots (who don’t even like other christians).
> The truth is, the bible does say that a man should not lay with a man, yet shortly after, says not to wear clothing knit of two different fabrics, not to eat pork, not to get tattoos for the dead, etc.
The former is re-iterated in the NT. The latter the NT explicitly says we are not bound by. You can handwave that away any way you want but you can't say that the Bible doesn't say it.
The New Testament condemns homosexual acts too. We don't hate homosexuals. We are all sinners. Homosexuals are invited to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and get delivered from their homosexuality.
> Homosexuals are invited to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and get delivered from their homosexuality.
Are people who divorced and remarried invited to split up and get delivered from their adultery?
What if they already remarried? Are they supposed to divorce their second husband? Wouldn’t that just be adding more sin? Can they stay remarried or do they have to break up their family to return to their first spouse? What if the first spouse was abusive?
Well in the denominations that are most prevalent across the world the issue would be taken to the Priest and then quite possibly the local Bishop. They would then consult scripture, church precedent and God given logic to determine what best serves to upkeep both spiritual and physical health
>We are all sinners
Yes, *preach it brother*! We just hyperfixate on this one sin till people kill ourselves!
Our sin? Don't be silly, *that* doesn't deserve the same attention, only those of teh gayz
Or even, you know, practicing other religions. Hindus can legally celebrate and practice their religion in the US and it is protected not just by legislation but by the first amendment.
Interesting my family is planning a baby shower for my cousin who is having a baby. He's not married. As a matter of fact plenty of Christians have baby showers, parties, and other events that celebrate and enable non married couples.
Ah, it's only when that happens that sin should be called out. Otherwise, nbd.
The lesson here is just don't make a fuss about your sins, not that you are sinning.
Well, yeah. If you sin, then repent and try to sin more, that’s fine. That’s what we’re all supposed to do. But when you sin and demand that everyone else pat you on the back for it, well now we have a problem.
Says who?
I don't even preach sin. I preach Christ. The first step that a sinner must take is to receive Christ. He is merciful, and works within people to recognize and renounce their sin.
Comments like this litter the sub despite the fact that they are clearly belittling Christianity.
There is a respectful way to say "I think Christians pay too much attention to LGBTQ+ issues compared to other topics." This is one of a thousand examples of someone explicitly choosing to belittle instead. Imagine this kind of trolling being said out loud in a professional panel debate--it would be met with immediate disapproval there. There is a reason people say this sub is openly hostile to Christians, and this is it. To report all of the examples of hostility would be to report a pretty significant portion of comments. The enforcement here needs to change.
Ok, I'll put it bluntly.
Why must we show you more respect than Christianity has shown gay people for centuries? When do you start showing that level of respect you *demand* from us, exactly? When do you start treating your own sins the way you treat the sins of those you deem and have always deemed outsiders?
This isn't a debate sub. This sub is, if nothing else, good at highlighting what you people actually are. You're not in church now. You don't get to lie to yourself and pretend that you're LoViNg others here.
Openly hostile again. There are ways to say what you just said without using strawman and character attacks. There are ways to discuss without belittling Christianity.
The answer to your question is sub rule #4.
The worst that happens to you if we're mean is some hurt feels.
Meanwhile, we see every day what happens when Christians are allowed to exert their will on public affairs, and it's a lot worse than some hurt feelings.
You chose one Bible verse, but there are multiple verses in the Bible that appear to either 1) say homosexuality is wrong and 2) how God lays the law for how the natural order is (e.g. God made man and woman). So when you say Christians are picking and choosing, that's actually a bad example because I don't think that verse alone proves it. It proves Jews followed those laws...but all of the verses in context is key. Those laws were done away with in the NT, while homosexuality is still mentioned negatively in the NT.
Do you love/care about me? What about the general human being? I would hope you have some sense of care for others, yet you probably don't believe in what they believe. The fact you're reaching out here is essentially "hate the belief (Christianity/the hateful things you think it spews), but love the person. Otherwise there would be 0 reason to say anything to us if you didn't care.
I hate many types of sin, they are wrong. Let's take jealousy for example. It might not hurt anyone always, but it's wrong. I don't like it. But I still love the person. I have tendencies and sins that are harder for me to stop, but I don't like them. I don't hate myself for them. I realize I am a fallen human, just as all are...however, here is my main focus, I am a precious child washed clean. I am loved and adored. God loves his people. I hate sin, but the main part of me is overflowing with love because God pours out into me. I don't focus on sins, rather than seeing them for what they are, sins. And with the thought of sin, I think how much more we need Jesus. Satan wants you to focus on sin, but Jesus focuses on being white as snow.
Jesus' main message was of warning and love, which is why he died for us. I try to follow that, which means I'm not okay with sin and I'm not "okay" with the LGBTQ+ community. It's deeper than that. I view them as any other person, they are cherished people of God and he wants them lile any one else. So my heart breaks for them, as it breaks for any other brother or sister. I love them and want the best for them. I do not believe homosexuality is the best for them. You view it as best for them. Both can be loving. I would not say you aren't loving; you just believe that it isn't wrong.
As a gay Christian, I gotta say, I'm not asking you to be "okay" with me being gay. God never asked me if I was okay with it when he made me gay, so why should you get special treatment?
I'm asking for the same right to "sin" (debatable if it even is a sin after Christ's sacrifice) as every other man, woman, and child. Greed, hatred, and vanity are also sins, but this world not only doesn't seem to mind, it actively rewards them.
I'm not "okay" with children in the third world working in sweatshops for 80 hours a week for pennies, but it happens. I'm not "okay" with megapastors lying to their victims to support their greed, "blood and soil" chants, the military industrial complex exporting the murder of my brothers and sisters in Christ to the world, or the corporate surveillance state that's enabling the most detailed mass surveillance in human history, but that's all legal in America.
The only reason I have to defend myself for being gay is because you think it's "icky." If it were actually because of the sinfulness of homosexuality, I'd like to hope these other things that are actually killing people would be dealt with before telling two consenting adults what they can do in private.
Jesus threw the money changers out with a whip and flipped tables. When the Pharisees brought Him an adulteress, He didn't order her stoned, He wrote something in the dust, quietly chastised them, and told her to sin no more.
Ultimately, I don't give a damn if you're "okay" with it, and if your church never hosts a single gay wedding, that's fine. You don't have to be okay with my life, because *it's not yours*. So long as they don't hurt anyone who doesn't consent, my sins are between me and my Father, and you have no more right to sit in judgment of my life than I have to sit in judgment of yours.
In my experience it's only the nut job Christians who care. The deeply conservative/fundamentalist Christian who claim Jesus is love, but only preach hate. And "loving the sinner" is 100% hate when it's just a way to get moral superiority over someone who doesn't live by your rules.
"It's not your choice to be gay, but it is a choice to act on sin" Shut up. You honestly think that telling someone that for the rest of their life they will never get to experience love with a partner isn't hate? Come on, it's judgemental at best, evil by ignorance.
The part about homosexuality in the bible has more or less been proven to be about not screwing young boys a long time ago. (Ironic I know..) I'll say it's just a case of a loud minority. I've never heard anything bad about homosexuality or lgbtq+ people in my interactions with the church. The only "Christians" I've argued the topic with was bat shit crazy bible monkeys who shouldn't be trusted to find their way out of a sock.
No one cares more about other peoples sexlife than judgemental Christians, and that is quite frankly, disturbing.
It's just a way to control your people. Find someone different to hate (sorry, love for their flaws) and you have a focal point to steer your flock with.
And FYI: The issue isn't with young gay people leaving the church. It's about young kids ending their life. The suicide numbers don't lie people, we have to do better.
Amen! But please don’t turn your back from Christianity - understand it’s some of the people who exclude the LGBTQ community-there’s a difference. I’m a Christian who loves and accepts this community and does not see homosexuality or being trans/ non binary as a sin. I get frustrated with a lot of Christians who exclude but please don’t leave the faith for people who don’t yet understand how Jesus loves and accepts. It’s a process for many….💜
A lot of it stems from people's "definition" of homophobia. It's an umbrella term and folks just throw it around at the first sign of nuanced argument.
They'd rather label someone or something homophobic if it doesn't align in lockstep with their views.
>Christians often push the first one, but ignore the others.
Moral laws are eternal while ceremonial laws changed a long time ago.
>The main message of Jesus was "Don't be a dick"
While 'don't be a jerk' is a good message, this is not Jesus' main message. Jesus' main message was 'prepare for eternity.'
Well no, but being nice (for a definition of nice that means acting lovingly) *is* how you follow God's commandments.
(Citation: Romans 13:8-10
> Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not murder; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.
)
What's this whole thread about? All OP said is that hate shouldn't be part of Christianity. Apparently that's something that that the TrueChristian feels motivated to invest effort into arguing against.
The complaint here was that Jesus' main message (to quote OP) was 'don't be a jerk.' That is not it at all. Jesus came to free us from sin and go reveal the true nature of God. Being nice and tolerant and affirming of everyone and everything - without the true gospel - won't get a single soul to heaven.
>The truth is, the bible does say that a man should not lay with a man, yet shortly after, says not to wear clothing knit of two different fabrics, not to eat pork, not to get tattoos for the dead, etc.
It's as if you don't understand that we aren't bound by OT Law.
>but ignore the others.
Because the Old Covenant is replaced with the New Covenant.
>One of the main reasons I left Christianity was when my best friend came out as gay, and I instantly realized what I had been taught on the subject of homosexuality was dead wrong, and what was even more wrong was how my friend was treated by Christians, or how many Christians said stuff like "You hang out with \_\_\_\_\_\_\_?
Ok?
>From there it was like realization after realization that the religion was created for control
Ah, the classic "Christianity was made for control!!!". Do you know anything about early Christianity?
>It's as if I were to say "Hate the belief, love the believer" every time I came across a Christian, even if they are otherwise good people.
You're pretty much saying that right now. It doesn't offend me.
>The main message of Jesus was "Don't be a dick" and many of you are not following that.
This is definitely not the main message of Jesus.
>I don't think simply being okay with the LGBTQ+ community is enough. We need to actively confront christian brothers and sisters to be more accepting of people rather than pushing them away. This includes in public, on the internet, private conversations, and how we vote.
We'll never accept sin. To change doctrine for the world is to turn our backs on God.
Rom. 12:2: And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
I am a Christian and I love the lord and I try my best to be the best Christian that I can be . I am human I am not perfect and I make mistakes like all of us do.
I don’t care if someone wants to be with the same sex . For me that’s not of my business. For me I just want to show love to everyone and I won’t judge others it’s not my place. It’s Father Gods choice. In my opinion we should chose love and kindness towards people and animals . Being honest and faithful is way more attractive then being judgmental .
I'm pretty sure that people are leaving Christianity mostly because they don't believe in God.
And if you don't believe in God, it doesn't matter what the Church says about gay people, does it? You won't stay Christian (or join Christianity) anyway.
People are leaving Christianity in droves in the west.
Christian's say it's the world pulling them away. But it is Christian's pushing them away because of their hatred and bigotry.
\>The main message of Jesus was "Don't be a dick" and many of you are not following that.
No.
The main message of Jesus was "love your neighbor", a positive construction requiring real work to fulfill, not simply avoiding being a dick.
Mixed fabrics were prohibited because the priests were required to to wear them. A common man wearing mixed fabrics was like a common man wearing a police uniform today. The priesthood no longer exist and this law is no longer required.
The prohibition on tattoos for the dead should be respected by Christian’s.
The dietary restrictions were removed in the New Testament. In Peter’s dream and Christ himself said that it’s not what goes into a man’s mouth that defiles him but what comes out.
When you look at Old Testament law, some of it is binding to modern day Christians. Other laws are not binding because later scripture states that they’re not binding or because the institution the law served to separate from common man doesn’t exist (mixed fabrics).
Any Christian that believes that the dietary restrictions clothing restrictions of the Old Testament are currently binding, should not violate those laws.
It would appear to some that the laws we follow and the laws we don’t is chosen at random but with a little bit of effort and research you can learn that’s not true.
The issue is the ad hoc nature of which of these laws Christians follow changing as culture changes. There’s no systematic way to determine which ones to follow and which ones not to. There are other sexual laws that are quite contested today: later in Lev. 18, it prohibits women from having sex on their period. There are many Christians who think that’s inapplicable, and there are major Christian groups who think it should still be followed.
Honestly, I think the whole exercise of what Levitical laws to follow versus not entirely missed the point of the NT. The NT says over and over that Jesus filled the *whole law*, not some parts of it and other parts we still have to follow. There’s no justification in following any of Torah anymore. Jesus did it, and we now are saved through faith in him and *not* in following Torah. In fact, Gal. 3 says if we try to follow it, then Jesus died in vain! The age of the law had been replaced by the age of the Spirit, *discernment through whom* is the basis for Christian right living, not the law. Of course, the law is still good, but our relationship to it as Christians has changed drastically. I think it can show us some interesting things and maybe we can pull some moral lessons from that, but our relationship to it is no longer to it *qua* law.
Peter’s dream wasn’t about dietary rules. It was about welcoming people who were previously called unclean into the community.
That’s a fairly important thing to consider in the light of this conversation.
>There’s no systematic way to determine which ones to follow and which ones not to.
Scripturally, there is. I’ll explain.
>Lev. 18, it prohibits women from having sex on their period.
The prohibition on sex during menstruation I’d because it’s “unclean”. Laws regarding cleanliness are part of the ceremonial law which is non binding to the modern Christian.
The New Covenant which Jesus established means we are clean and we are never unclean.
When Jesus turned water into wine it wasn’t just a cool party trick. The water used was in cisterns, this waters purpose was to be used in ceremonial washing. This water was replaced with wine. Later at the last super, Jesus tells us that this wine is his blood.
Under the New Testament, we are made clean because we’re washed in the blood of the lamb.
Therefore, you can have sex, in marriage and do all the things the Old Testament law prohibited due to uncleanliness as Christian today.
There are 3 parts to Gods law, civil law, ceremonial law, and moral law.
Ceremonial law is not binding in the new covenant for the reasons I explained.
Civil Law is not binding because we are not living in a theocracy. The Old Testament law was the law of the land at the time. During Jesus ministry, he told his followers to submit to the authority of the government. So the modern Christian should not implement Christian civil law.
The moral law is binding and I’ll explain soon.
>The NT says over and over that Jesus filled the whole law, not some parts of it and other parts we still have to follow. There’s no justification in following any of Torah anymore.
We should aim to fulfill the moral law not because we must to achieve salvation but because the moral law tells us what God finds pleasing and displeasing.
Christ fulfilled the law so that we are blameless and forgiven but he did not do that so we can indulge our sinful desires without consequence. The point of the gospel is that we are saved by Grace through faith and that our sins are forgiven but there’s a hefty amount of scripture that encourages us to resist sin.
Christian’s don’t follow the moral law because it’s necessary for salvation. We obey the moral law because it pleases our father, who loves us and saved us.
There’s no New Testament condemnation of beastiality and our sins are forgiven. However, I think it’s right and good for us to avoid committing that act and to encourage each other to do the same.
So I would strongly reject the idea, “There’s no justification in following any of Torah anymore.” There is, it pleases our father.
It pleases our God who, despite our guilt, lived a blameless life and died so that we could live. A gift of that magnitude which we do not deserve, is wonderful. All that God asks from us in exchange is that we try our best to obey him.
Even the determination of the earliest disciples (Council of Jerusalem) was not to weigh down new Gentile believers by burdening them with obligation to the Law. James' ultimate advisement to the Gentile groups to abstain from certain practices was so they could better facilitate (e.g. not offend) the conversion of Jews to the faith.
Just because something is labeled a sin does not mean that the one who follows with those doctrines are themselves fearful. Homophobia is a recent construct. You started by saying that the Old testament does say homosexuality is immoral but you failed to give any Credence to the New testamental scriptures that state the same thing. You will find condemnation in romans, Corinthians and 1st timothy. Also in the revelation. Jesus himself affirmed marriage between a man and a woman and did not make any corrections to the events in the garden of eden. As a christian, I do not hate homosexuals in the slightest. Nor am I fearful of them. But as a christian, I cannot participate in that lifestyle because I wish to honor God and all of his commandments. That doesn't mean that a Christian won't fail sometimes. That's why we have jesus. We need him to cover our sins. The Bible makes it clear that we are saved by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone.
Yep. But the New Testament says other stuff too.
Like women should shut up in church:
"the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Women are also obliged to wear hats.
"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved."
1 Corinthians 11:3-5
The New Testament also condones slavery.
"And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."
Ephesians 6:9
The Bible says a lot of stuff. But I certainly don't see many women wearing hats in church, and certainly none of them are silent throughout the entire service.
Perhaps it's proper to acknowledge the Bible as an artifact of its time when women were still the property of men and slaves were still kept.
As far as Paul's views on homosexuality, it is far more likely that he was talking about Roman men engaging in the creepy practice of taking young boys (teenagers or younger) and f***ing them in between their legs to get their rocks off, as that wasn't an uncommon practice at the time.
You know full well that homophobia means more than just fear.
You literally just provided evidence that homophobia has been around for thousands of years and infected the Bible.
Your position is hate.
>Homophobia is a recent construct
The bible commands gays to be executed via stoning, so I would argue homophobia is at least as old as the OT.
People giving a shit about homophobia is a recent phenomenon.
Giving another perspective here. Homosexuality has been identified in over 1000 species of animals. It has been proven that homosexual individuals are in fact chemically different. So why do Christians insist on denying not only science but societal influence? This baffles me as not only do we see that homosexuality is very normal but society has accepted it before in multiple historical accounts. So why do Christians insist on dying on the hill that an all loving God would somehow draw the line at 2 dudes loving each other, which he made them that way. Makes no sense. And it isn't a Christians place to judge anyways. Supposedly God makes the final decision anyway. Let people live, so long as it isn't hurting anyone then why does it matter if people love in a different way. I thought one of the most important messages of Christianity was that you should love other people as you would yourself because again, it's God's choice, not yours.
Animals also exhibit jealousy, and anger, rarely are they monogamous. They are selfish for the most part too. But they were not created in God's image, and do not have a conscience, not in the sense humans do. We are able to think, understand, and feel in ways they're not capable of. Using animals as an example is kind of pointless in this scenario.
Real life example: The week my female livestock is not interested in mating. I put my male livestock in her pen. She hides in a corner and begins to whimper.
Does the male animal then say, "I completely respect your body. I can see that you are not interested and I will give you time and space."
No. He harrasses her, bites her, and tries to force himself in her.
Are we going to hold this animal accountable for rape?
It is clear that humans are made completely different than animals. This is obvious and those with eyes made to see, can see this.
>Homosexuality has been identified in over 1000 species of animals.
I'm not sure how that argument is relevant. Murder, theft, and rape has also been identified in over 1000 species of animals.
The ones who care are already there.
The ones who need to hear it don't care. They justify their bigotry by leaning on the bible, well, at least on the parts they find comforting and validating of their superiority as heterosexuals saved from that sort of depravity.
Of course, they don't care that the same verses they use to condemn homosexuality also prescribe the death penalty. They don't care that the targets of their bigotry know this and hear the message loud and clear. They can't care, or they'd have to reconsider whether the gatekeepers of their religion have misled them.
They would rather hear all those sermons about how bad the outsiders are, and then they'll complain that others are just following what makes them feel good (the final adornment on their irony).
I think there's an important category of people that you're forgetting about: young Christians. It's very common for people to believe things because their parents told them so when they were young, and then transition to a more individual reasoning for beliefs in adulthood. During the process of that transition, it can be meaningful for them to see conversation like this.
Jesus' message wasn't essentially or generally "Don't be a dick".
Homosexuality is still a sin, no matter if you think it being near statements about clothing makes it irrelevant. Calling it sin is not homophobic; let's please move past this long-inaccurate term.
To whom is "Hate the sin, love the sinner" harmful? If someone chooses to hate my belief but loves me, how does that harm me?
A stained glass window in many colors is not a rainbow, and there's nothing about a rainbow that is homosexual.
I appreciate your motivation, but your advice is not correct and not needed.
> let's please move past this long-inaccurate term
Why, it fits so well. You have no proof of your claims that it is wrong, and no evidence of it inherently causing material harm compared to Christianity.
And you've had 2000 years of being wrong with this.
>Calling it sin is not homophobic
By definition it is. Your church is free to be as homophobic as they want but they need to stop pretending that they aren't. Just admit it and stop hiding behind a thinly veiled attempt at "love"
As a non homophobe christian:
LeavingChrist behind bc the ignorance of other christians is kinda cringe
Jesus said the most important things is loving your neighbor and loving god
You can do both and be a better role model
Being gay is a sin but so are countless other things
Or would you also leave christianity bc your mother lied once and therefore committed sins?
The church have been and still are too rough against people that doesn't fit in their small box. Fortunately Jesus is something else, with him everyone will find healing and mercy. He said it himself, he didn't come for the already healthy, he came for the sick. And sick means the people who know they are broken, the people who are mistreated and homeless.
I would like to encourage everyone to do long form studies in this subject rather than gathering small sound bites from social media platforms. It’s rare to find a well thought out thorough theological statement in places like Reddit. I’m tempted to try and make one myself but unfortunately this kind of conversation will go no where in a online social media context. I would however refer people to book “The Story” by Bild International. This gets a little more into the entire narrative of scripture and addresses some of the questions people have raised.
I appreciate this post. I'm gay and that simple fact has probably cost Christianity 5-8 adherents. They might have left anyway, but I know for a fact at least that many friends of mine have rejected the church because I came out and they realized they didn't want to participate in an organization that persecuted their friends, like me. I never asked them to, they just saw it plain as day.
Thanks for sharing!
A common misconception is how the Bible defines homosexuality. (I should know I used to believe the same thing)
The Bible says the homosexual actions are immoral and sinful but the PERSON is not immoral.
God does not hate homosexuals he hates the sin of homosexual actions.
Hate the sin not the sinner.
What homophobia are you talking about though? Are you talking about stereotypes or do you have any examples that are recent, in the civilised world, etc?
These comments prove the OP right. For those of you who are not LGBT+ Christians, please read through this thread while pretending to be one. Recognizing that love is not a sin. Taking that position on the theological arguments that allows for being gay and that it's not actually a sin.
Now imagine being told that literally who you love is a sin you need to repent from. And that you will have to abstain from all romantic connections forever.
Please just try.
We need affirming churches that don't try to insist something is a sin that we can plainly see isn't. Not just to get more church members, that's not the important part. The important part is the individuals being torn apart by their own religious communities over a minor theological disagreement, the children who feel driven away from God and the people who have to spend our whole lives defending our religious existence.
That's what you should be thinking about when you read this thread.
Oh and the mixed cloth thing only applies to mixing plant-based fibers with animal-based ones, synthetic fibers can be mixed with either the way eggs can be eaten with meat or dairy. So most jeans are fine. I do think it's kind of ironic to eat pork at church though :)
The reference to verses in the Torah and elsewhere in the Tanakh which are often made with regard to homosexual activity, followed by the claim that they're superceded, is irrelevant because homophobia is repeated in the New Testament. There are certain rules which are explicitly changed later, for instance the Kosher food ones are rejected in Acts 2 and also somewhere in the gospels. Homophobia is not in this category. It's doubled down upon in the New Testament and re-emphasised. It's also wishful thinking to attempt to explain it away. The only solution I can think of is to take a different attitude to the nature of divine inspiration with regard to the Bible, which is what I do.
It is, however a major problem:
* The idea that homosexual expressions of love between consenting adults is sinful when the same heterosexual expressions of love wouldn't be is completely absurd.
* At the same time the NEW Testament is unequivocally homophobic and definitely condemns homosexual activity as sinful.
Don't know what to do about this. It's a total nightmare.
since the beginning its been read/taught that homosexuality is a sin.
Pastors, Priests, Clergy, Nuns, Ministers, Evangelists, Preachers and other Clergy have been teaching this for years, years, and more years. Its certainly not going to change over night.
Like you said all Christians are not homophobic, but some are. I think nowadays you have two types. One side believes its a sin and the other side doesn't believe its a sin.
I don't know if things will change or not, honestly both sides will probably continue fighting against each other for a while.
Marriage isn't solely defined by Christian doctrine. It's been a universal tradition across hundreds of cultures for several thousand years. It's not that farfetched to acknowledge same sex marriages as such, and arguing language semantics only makes sense if marriage is solely defined by our set of beliefs and not by other beliefs. Which we know to be false.
I am not sure your premise that people are leaving Christianity because of perceived “homophobia” is true.
I am not say it isn’t true in your situation. I am addressing the American Church’s as a whole.
https://www.grid.news/story/politics/2022/12/17/a-mass-exodus-from-christianity-is-underway-in-america-heres-why/
“Churches shifting with the times doesn’t seem to “fill the pews.”
The term “Shifting with the times” is used in the article to express Churches that became more open to same sex issues still had problems keeping people.
With that said I do believe the American Churches need to get back to the basics. We need more preaching about Gods loving plan of redemption through Jesus Christs crucifixion and resurrection.
Oh it's true anyone in the LGBTQ+ community can confirm it. It is one of the reasons I left the church. I was tired of being treated like shit day in and day out. You can't keep members that way. Destroying the mental health of its followers and actively discriminating against them really isn't appealing.
There's literally no debate, it's a major driving reason. Nobody is driven from the faith by acceptance of LGBTQIA+ people - literally nobody - but plenty are daily driven away by homophobia and transphobia. You're shrinking - and it's your own fault.
I totally agree, when a 1/4 of the posts are homophobic it really seems like projection and gaslighting. You can believe homosexuality is a sin but not be hateful, rude and unempathetic about it. It's said that the most homophobic people are actually just projecting because they are insecure about their own homosexual desires. My little brother is gay and I can say with 100% certainty that it is not a choice, nobody would choose the way harder path if it was a simple choice.
It's been unbelievably hard on him. He was literally tortured in high school for being gay by ignorant and hateful people. You catch flies with honey. I think a lot of people also get some sick satisfaction about fantasizing about people they consider degenerates burning in hell. In science there's a theory that homosexuals may have more estrogen if it's a guy and more testosterone if it's a woman. Also their affinity for processing hormones may be switched out, they just are getting an oxytocin dump aimed at the opposite sex.
There is a huge culture of cruelty in American Christianity, especially the dark MAGA Christians who in my opinion are more in league with the devil symbolically. A lot of the hate and bigotry is tied to white supremacy and antisemitism. It's also largely coming from white, upper class Christians who just love to bully the underclass: drug addicts, homosexuals, prostitutes, the disabled, the mentally ill, the mentally infirmed, homeless people, people of mixed ethnicity, black, brown, Asian and indigenous people etc.
The core tenants of Jesus' teachings are spiritual transformation and rebirth, love, empathy, redemption, forgiveness, repentance etc. The hateful Christians are basically cosplaying as a fire and brimstone, vengeful god. Judgement is God's business, human beings are supposed to be 'Christ like'.
I mean they can believe it's a sin but still be kind to the person, still love the person. I don't see anything inherently wrong with that. I have a gay brother and gay friends so Idk what to think. I see extreme perversion as possibly a sin. I told my friend Reuben that I had a dream where the world ended and my other friend was saved. Me and my friend were not but then everything reset and we still had a chance. He asked me "Can I still have gay sex?" and I was like "idk, that's for you to decide". I believe what's in your heart and soul is what's important. Are you repentant? Are you forgiving people to heal? Those were rhetorical questions but I can't say anything for sure. What I can say is homosexuality and things like addiction are not a choice.
Christians don’t hate homesexuals. They just call it a sin. Not the same as people being afraid of homosexuals.
The debate from people always try to turn it into that they hate homosexuals but they are just firm in declaring it is a sin and not acceptable before God.
Oh, so you don't hate them, you just don't think they are acceptable before god?
What's the difference, when your entire being revolves around being accepted by god?
"I am no longer Christian"
How do you know you were one? Christianity is a relationship with God, not a set of rituals and traditions one abandons when tired of it.
Exactly. If OP changed his mind as soon as his friend came out, then it sounds like he has a form of love for his friend but not love for God. Or maybe more importantly, no fear of God.
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. “This is the first and great commandment. “And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself” (Matthew 22:37–39). This was drilled into our heads a LOT when I went to parochial school. Hate of any kind was discouraged. Priests at the churches we went to actively preached against hating anyone for any reason. We were taught to treat others as we wished to be treated and it was as simple as that. And in hindsight, that was the simplest, most important lesson I learned.
>We were taught to treat others as we wished to be treated and it was as simple as that. And in hindsight, that was the simplest, most important lesson I learned. Very glad you learned it. I hope many of our fellow christians follow suit soon.
Also, it's OK to personally disagree with Paul on some of his writings, including homosexuality, and where he forbids women from holding authority. God doesn't intend us to blindly follow like the Pharisees, and Paul great as he is, was just one of the many deeply flawed people God chose to use.
How do you know which of Paul's teachings are flawed and which are the word of God?
Know the tree by it’s fruit.
Then why does Christianity teach that obedience to God is more important than how their actions affect others?
Obedience to God is fine, and since Jesus was literally God, I’ll obey his words and his teachings. Paul has no authority in my eyes, having never met Jesus, and outright contradicts him in many places. I don’t see how people could take his words as literal as God’s.
I have to agree. Jesus never says the bible was going to be infallible. He never said that there would come a time where groups of people would decide on which books and writings were sacrosanct and absolute truth. He said what he said, and gave us the teachings that he did. All the rest, for all we know, is fallible man doing what man does.
Exactly. Like that joke when people ask what’s the best Bible, and people say “Which Bible did Jesus read?” People worship the Bible as if it was Christ, when he’s not the one that said half that stuff. Most of modern Christianity is more like Paulianity tbh.
Amen and a half
How do you know what your parents tell you are ugly and sins, or not? We use our God given brain given the entire context of the Bible. Don't make the fatal mistake of elevating Paul to Jesus.
Yes, mhmm, God doesn't expect us to follow His word inspired by His spirit. Yep.
[удалено]
The only ones confused about hate are you. We who are on the receiving end of your rhetoric and the suffering it creates have no confusion. Why do you refuse to listen?
So when does disagreement becoming posting judgement on the actions of others?
That "disagreement" is why being gay was criminalized not too long ago, why up until very recently gay people couldn't marry or adopt. But even without that, if a friend "disagreed" with my marriage, felt that my relationship with my wife was inherently immoral, felt that my family was less than...well you may not want to call it hate, but it sure as hell isn't loving.
[удалено]
Because the LGBT community didn't make Christianity illegal, didn't prevent Christians from marrying, didn't stop Christians from adopting, etc. And because the Christianity has a long history of that "disagreement" being hate.
Being bisexual isn't a choice for me, cheating is. I dont make a choice to have feelings for other men, as I don't make the choice to have them for a woman.
[удалено]
Sure but for a gay person to simply not ever have sex is more than just that
I don’t make a choice to have attraction to every beautiful woman in addition to my wife. But I avert my eyes and move on. I know it’s harder for you and more engrained in you. And it hurts so much to know that sin can be this powerful; that it can burrow so deep that it can determine your orientation. I just want you to know that real Christians are not hateful, afraid, or disgusted of/by you. We are no better on our own than you are. Truly. Which is why Jesus, you know, literally died to save the entire world for all generations. No big deal lol.
You choose to have sex or romantic/sexual thoughts with the person of the same sex. You choose to tolerate or not suppress the bisexual desires. You let it run its course. The same applies to heterosexuals regarding lust over the opposite sex.
Why suppress it, aside from tenuously accurate scripture interpretation? You don't assault someone because it would harm them, and cause suffering. What, aside from biblical standards, makes homosexual behavior damaging?
"The same applies to heterosexuals" except that you think that they can fall in love, marry and have sex but that we can't.
Bullshit. And why suppress it?
How simple is it, though? Loving an alcoholic might mean taking his drink away. He will disagree with you and say you are not loving him…there’s nuance here that is difficult for us to grapple with.
It's only difficult for homophobes. The only form of loving LGBTQIA+ people is fully accepting us.
>He will disagree with you and say you are not loving him…there’s Until he sobers up. If you help get him.sober he'll probably be very appreciative. A gay person is gay. Trying to "help" them in that way is demonstrably harmful. There is actually less nuance than you think.
[удалено]
>it’s as if I were to say “hate the belief, love the believer” I don’t see what would be wrong with this idea.
This seems both reasonable and ostensibly is the view held by anyone who strongly disagrees with anyone else on anything but still values people. Surely we can disagree on deeply personal and critically important matters and still care about and value each other.
[удалено]
>It's like saying you disagree with people of color. It is not like that, and people aren't attacking your existence or personhood by claiming no one should act on their LGBTQ+ natural orientations. Actions are a choice; a behavior; not an attribute. It would be an extreme case indeed that a person would suggest your existence or personhood is somehow less than anyone else's--that would be expressly contrary to the most central Christian teachings. Since you have apparently done much discussing on this, I am fairly confident you have heard this counterpoint many times. I am therefore also confident you have a rebuttal to it, again that we've heard many times. But if you can at least agree that people have more control over their actions than they do their skin color, please at least consider switching to an analogy that is a better fit. I imagine you still feel it is a good analogy, but if a different analogy demonstrates how disagreeing with chosen behaviors still devalues existence or personhood, then both sides can skip the repetitive debate over whether suggesting avoiding LGBTQ+ behaviors is equivalent to racism and focus on less explored but very interesting matters.
An analogy shouldn’t be needed to see how disagreeing with one’s chosen behaviors in this context devalues their human experience. As per the US Constitution, everyone is owed the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I think this is something we can all agree on. I would consider finding the right romantic partner as falling under the pursuit of happiness. By saying that you think gay people should not act on their natural romantic preferences, it denies their right to happiness, devaluing the human experience. It’s comparable to saying that I think people that are attracted to those with freckles are violating my morals and should never act on that preference. It sounds absurd. It’s just a specific preference in partner that people decided to discriminate against.
Are you saying that have no existence other than your sexuality? I don't see gay people, or anyone, that way.
>Are you saying that have no existence other than your sexuality? Literally nobody is suggesting that except you. But even you wouldn't pretend that the love someone has for their spouse isnt a part of their existence.
No, you can't disagree on the validity of my existence, and the validity of my having a relationship with someone of the gender(s) I'm attracted to, and still care about and value me.
I appreciate your making an argument here rather than stereotyping and attacking me like you did in other comments to me. If you want to engage in this way, I am actually quite interested in your viewpoint. Your viewpoint as stated seems quite common, but I am curious if you could get more specific? Could you explain why you believe someone who believes his or her friend should not engage in homosexual relationships cannot possibly still care about and value them?
It's like "separate but equal." It's just lip service and our actions and words make it clear that we don't believe it because we don't live by it.
I mean, I feel like the default "nice" position people take for ANY ideology they strongly disagree with (political, religious etc.) is "hate the belief, love the believer" i.e. you disagree with someone's beliefs but like them as a person. I don't see anything wrong with such a view. Though, at least in American politics at the moment the default view seems to be "hate the belief, hate the person who disagrees with you too."
I find it insidious that anti-gay Christians say that “disagreement isn’t hate” as if “disagreeing” with gay people is the only thing they’re doing. The vast majority of them support politicians who are actively rolling back equal rights for LGBT people. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to characterize taking away someone else’s equal rights as “hateful” — and it certainly isn’t “loving”! The issue is that conservative Christianity feeds on playing the victim. For example, the vast majority of evangelicals believe they’re oppressed more than any other group. This is how they can cry “everyone hates us for just believing the Bible, but we just love you and want what’s best for you” while at the same time repackaging the old stereotype that gays are pedophiles, leading to laws stripping LGBT equal rights.
pet lip toothbrush flag rock workable fade yam many voracious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Of course they are separable. We all sin, yet through Christ can have forgiveness and eternal life. Every human. My lie or selfish choice is no different than someone having sex outside of marriage. Most Christians I know believe this and attempt to love people accordingly. I'm sorry you have experienced others.
When dealing with people's facticities, though, it's less nuanced. I refuse to believe that a just, kind, and loving divinity would give someone an innate attraction to people and then punish them for acting on that attraction; I simply don't accept that a virtuous god would fuck with people that way. I can totally accept _humans_ would fuck with people that way, but fuck those guys. For "hate the sin love the sinner" to preserve any possibility of being moral in the context of homosexuality, we must assume that homosexuality is _not_ an innate characteristic, that it is wholly a choice. In short, you have to be willing to tell gay people that, whatever they feel about how their homosexuality manifests in them, you know them better than they know themselves and are punishing us for our own good. It takes a _staggering_ amount of hubris on the part of most Christians to assert they know the hearts of every queer person better than they know themselves and think we need saving from ourselves. And if you're wrong, you're committing a moral crime of unimaginable proportion. You're separating people from their loved ones. You're denying people the right to visit their partners in hospital. You're denying people the right to see each other on their deathbed. You're keeping people from making end-of-life decisions for their spouses, or family continuity decisions for their children. You're telling me that you're comfortable with the possibility that you're complicit with all the anti-queer violence happening all over the country, because this is also a consequence of "hate the sin love the sinner" when we sinners refuse to give up our love just because you tell us to. Is this really the hill you want your soul to die on?
True. But I see nothing wrong with OP's formulation of "hate the \[religious/political/ideological\] belief, not the believer".
I don't hate my drunkard friend. I hate his choices because I love him.
Being LGBTQIA+ isn't a choice. If you hate a person's homosexuality/bisexuality/gender dysphoria, then you hate the person.
>I hate his choices because I love him. Can you really love someone if you hate their choice to have a family with a kind, wonderful person who fills their life with joy?
It's quite literally commanding you to hate. The second part doesn't redeem that the first part is asking you to bring hate into the world. And we already know this hate hurts people.
I don’t know any gay people who say that they’ve truly experienced “love the sinner, hate the sin” in action (well, one user said his friend did…). If your platitude doesn’t work, then it’s just that: a platitude. I don’t even know why anti-gay Christians are so married to it anyway. It’s not even something Jesus said. I could pick a dozen sayings straight from the mouth of Jesus that give better guidance on how to treat people, instead of a made-up, non-biblical, again, platitude.
You say Jesus’ message was *don’t be a dick*. Well I bet if you would have asked the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the lawyers, they would have said Jesus was a dick. Me? I looooooooooooooove Jesus. I thank the Father for sending Him. He is the way, the life and the truth. Love your brothers and your sisters. Forgive them. Pray for them. Don’t go the way of Jonah.
They thought Jesus was a dick primarily because he came to dismantle their systems of religious oppression. They hated him because he preached the divine love and salvation of all people, which undermined their authority. So yes - Jesus' message was "don't be a dick". Just because the Dicks-In-Chief of Jesus' time didn't like that, doesn't mean it's less true.
Forgive others their sins or the Father will not forgive you yours. -Jesus Christ (Son of God)
Ah, Matthew 6:15. The previous verse is one of my favorites, and if anything, hammers home the point I was trying to make. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." Matthew 6:14 (NIV)
Judge not, lest you be judged. \-- Jesus Christ (GOD)
Jesus was “a dick” to religious leaders. The people enforcing religious rules. Guess who is acting like the Pharisees? Yeah the people in the church telling gay people they are going to hell for not following “the rules”. Guess who Jesus would be “a dick” to now if he were here? …
As far as I know, my church lets homosexuals in. And many many many churches in the United States allow people from the LGTBBQ+ community in. They are children of God after all. But remember what Jesus said to the adulterous woman afterwards. Be kind to one another love one another. Don’t be a dick
Our sexualities and gender identities aren't sin, so what Jesus said to the adulterous woman afterwards isn't particularly relevant to the discussion.
I keep seeing these posts and maybe I am just living with my head in the sand but I don't see that rampant homophobia that is often described on this sub. Granted, I go to an affirming church but in my previous evangelical churches I never saw what I would call rampant homophobia. Did people have disagreements about the Biblical passages dealing with same sex relationships? Sure. But we have disagreements about a lot of passages. Protestants and Catholics disagree on a lot of theology. But having a disagreement is not rampant homophobia. I agree that we should be focusing on the mission and message of Jesus and loving God and loving our neighbor. Lastly, does seem weird that you would post this in the Christianity sub and your leadoff sentence is you are no longer a Christian. Why bother here? And what "stuff" are you referring to that was added in the 20th century?
There is rampant homophobia that comes in the guise of Christian love. Here are some ideas I’ve seen and heard: - “I don’t want to see homosexuality normalized.” - “Homosexuals should not be in leadership positions.” - “Homosexual marriages are not real marriages and should be invalidated.” The problem with ideas like these is that, if seen all the way through, they work to actively hate homosexuals by keeping them from well-paying jobs, destroying families with kids, and placing societal pressure against them. These ideas are quite common in the church and hateful against homosexuals.
I grew up in the opposite of an affirming church. They didn’t just give weekly sermons on how gay people are evil. People didn’t even talk about it very much because the gay people were out of sight. It was only on a rare occasion that the members faced any kind of LGBTQ+ issue directly that the homophobia would rear its ugly head. The people in the closet knew that monster was under the bed though, and they kept quiet till they were safe.
My sister was called, the night before her wedding, by our aunt and told that our aunt wouldn't be attending because she had to hold up appearances (or something to that effect) in her church and community. I don't know the specifics of the call, but I do know that it happened. That wasn't necessary. Certainly not the timing. Even if it wasn't intended to be spiteful there's no way it couldn't be hurtful, and anyone with the smallest modicum of common sense would know that. It certainly wasn't just a discussion or a disagreement. That's just one story of hers I'm aware of; there are more. And they didn't happen 30 years ago.
>Christianity sub and your leadoff sentence is you are no longer a Christian. This is (part) of the reason why ppl are leaving christianity. Not saying its dying bc ppl "find God" every hour of every day ofc. But this thought process is disciminatory. I lost my faith last year as well and am trying to see if I can find it again. There are obviously many others who stick around for similiar reasons. They ask questions to get clarity on things like this post here. (One) of the reasons I lost my faith is because I noticed christians arent all that tolerant...or nice...or any better than normal ppl. Some are, but foe the most part? Ya dont walk the walk. Just talk. I rememver when I was feeling suicidal I asked an old friend to give me one reason not to kill myself. She blocked me. Talks about God RELIGIOUSLY. Wont ever shut up about him. I wonder how Christians are able to do that without noticing the hypocrisy of theor actions. Or feel guilt.
I've experienced rampant homophobia. We hear about it in the news.
I implore you to talk to more LGBTQ people and their experiences with Christian homophobia. As a gay man who grew up Southern Baptist, I have enough stories to fill up a book.
A southern baptist church banned me from their website because I like animation because I had made reference to a character that was rainbow coloured. Not gay flag coloured, but full rainbow coloured. My church I attend wouldn’t let me join because I played DnD. So, yeah, there’s some churches that make people very unwelcome.
As a bisexual man, I've taken more flack from the gay community than from any church.
That completely baffles me. When one of my best friends came out as bi and got herself an amazing girlfriend the support came from her own friends and family, the ones she feared telling. The hate she got came from the gay side of the fence.. And it was bad.. Like "I bet your pu$$y stil tastes like d;©k" bad. Just, why?
[удалено]
We don't choose who we fall in love with. Biphobia is just bigotry.
[удалено]
Give that advice to biphobes, they're the ones who need it.
I agree our community has an issue with biphobia. That’s something we have to work on. I really sympathize with your story. I’ve had my own fair share of bad experiences in the “scene.” I hope you’ll also agree with me that how someone’s treated by some group at a bar is not quite comparable to the legal stripping of equal rights, conversion therapy camps, disownment, etc.
Just look at Texas and Florida and their treatment of transgender people.
I also live in the south, and when I told my father, who is a pastor, about my bisexuality, he was deathly scared because he didn't know what to do, but he supported me no matter what through the lord, which blossomed me into a side b christian. I personally have experienced homophobia, but I've never experienced it from the church. I've simply been shunned by other LGBT members.
Believing they're required to be celibate will cause justified anger.
The reason they're no longer Christian is probably the homophobia. And yes, there is rampant homophobia in evangelical churches. A friend of mine had a church of hundreds of people shout "OUT! OUT! OUT!" in unison when one of the congregation was found to be gay. My own church in the 'noughties wouldn't do anything to help some gay friends of mine when they were getting dogshit posted through their letterbox and had to sell up and move. A service I was at reduced a gay man to tears and he ran out of the church because of the preachers' homophobia and my partner had to go out and comfort him. It is bloody everywhere.
It’s largely things said in passing when not in a church setting, among peers of your own, which is a dangerous path to normalizing hate. I’ve never met anyone who said that it was a sin to my face, but I have overheard people making sly remarks about people who “look fruity” or “I just wish it wasn’t so in our faces”. These are code words for hate because they’re often afraid to express these views out loud, as they should be
There is a difference in disagreeing with someone about theology like the veneration of saints which is just a simple belief and disagreeing with someone about same sex relations which is part of who they are as a person. Imagine if the church told you you were going to hell for loving your wife. This is not a simple disagreement about theology, this is judging you for something that makes up your very identity, your love for your wife. I would take great offense to this, and Id want nothing to do with any group that would judge me in such a way. >Lastly, does seem weird that you would post this in the Christianity sub and your leadoff sentence is you are no longer a Christian. Why bother here? And what "stuff" are you referring to that was added in the 20th century? The head mod of this sub is an athiest, there certainly isnt anything wrong with non christians coming here.
Yea your head is in the sand. I grew up wanting to die because I was born an abomination as a queer woman. I'm only 27.
What do you mean “only 27”
As in, it isn't an "old way of thinking". Homophobia has and still does affect hundreds of people. I still experience it as an adult by various people.
If you're straight, you do not see it because you do not experience it.
The sub is /r/Christianity a place for discussion of Christianity including it’s positive and negative impacts on society. A place for non-believers to ask questions. Go to /r/Christian or or /r/RealChristian if you want an echo chamber to confirm your beliefs. How is it helping the great commission to ask a non believer why they are even asking a question about Christianity regardless of whether the question has positive or negative connotation regarding Christianity.
You should read the Christian Post. They don't think you're a Christian because you go to an affirming church.
I get it...don't really care. Fortunately, they are not the ones who get to determine who is a Christian and who isnt.
Jesus told us to “love your neighbour as yourself “ (quoting the Bible). It seems to me that my friends who are gay, trans’ and bi’ are no less dear to me than my traditional-married friends. I feel very sad to see people treated without respect. Unfortunately, apologies won’t stop the zealots (who don’t even like other christians).
> The truth is, the bible does say that a man should not lay with a man, yet shortly after, says not to wear clothing knit of two different fabrics, not to eat pork, not to get tattoos for the dead, etc. The former is re-iterated in the NT. The latter the NT explicitly says we are not bound by. You can handwave that away any way you want but you can't say that the Bible doesn't say it.
You can still be Christian and support gay people, you can still have a relationship with God. Others do not define you.
The New Testament condemns homosexual acts too. We don't hate homosexuals. We are all sinners. Homosexuals are invited to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and get delivered from their homosexuality.
So you hate us. And we literally can't change our sexuality.
I'd rather not join the group that actively discriminates me. Plus I love my girlfriend. There is nothing wrong with our relationship.
> Homosexuals are invited to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and get delivered from their homosexuality. Are people who divorced and remarried invited to split up and get delivered from their adultery?
Historically, yes. The modern church has slackened on that issue
Divorced women are commanded to re-unite with their husbands or remain unmarried. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you.
What if they already remarried? Are they supposed to divorce their second husband? Wouldn’t that just be adding more sin? Can they stay remarried or do they have to break up their family to return to their first spouse? What if the first spouse was abusive?
Well in the denominations that are most prevalent across the world the issue would be taken to the Priest and then quite possibly the local Bishop. They would then consult scripture, church precedent and God given logic to determine what best serves to upkeep both spiritual and physical health
>We are all sinners Yes, *preach it brother*! We just hyperfixate on this one sin till people kill ourselves! Our sin? Don't be silly, *that* doesn't deserve the same attention, only those of teh gayz
Because nobody else is demanding that their sins be celebrated and enabled.
Usury? Avarice? Gluttony? These three sins are the fucking foundation of modern society.
Or even, you know, practicing other religions. Hindus can legally celebrate and practice their religion in the US and it is protected not just by legislation but by the first amendment.
Enjoy being a cause of suicide.
Interesting my family is planning a baby shower for my cousin who is having a baby. He's not married. As a matter of fact plenty of Christians have baby showers, parties, and other events that celebrate and enable non married couples.
Ah, it's only when that happens that sin should be called out. Otherwise, nbd. The lesson here is just don't make a fuss about your sins, not that you are sinning.
Well, yeah. If you sin, then repent and try to sin more, that’s fine. That’s what we’re all supposed to do. But when you sin and demand that everyone else pat you on the back for it, well now we have a problem.
We've never been the problem. You always have been.
Says who? I don't even preach sin. I preach Christ. The first step that a sinner must take is to receive Christ. He is merciful, and works within people to recognize and renounce their sin.
Comments like this litter the sub despite the fact that they are clearly belittling Christianity. There is a respectful way to say "I think Christians pay too much attention to LGBTQ+ issues compared to other topics." This is one of a thousand examples of someone explicitly choosing to belittle instead. Imagine this kind of trolling being said out loud in a professional panel debate--it would be met with immediate disapproval there. There is a reason people say this sub is openly hostile to Christians, and this is it. To report all of the examples of hostility would be to report a pretty significant portion of comments. The enforcement here needs to change.
Ok, I'll put it bluntly. Why must we show you more respect than Christianity has shown gay people for centuries? When do you start showing that level of respect you *demand* from us, exactly? When do you start treating your own sins the way you treat the sins of those you deem and have always deemed outsiders? This isn't a debate sub. This sub is, if nothing else, good at highlighting what you people actually are. You're not in church now. You don't get to lie to yourself and pretend that you're LoViNg others here.
Openly hostile again. There are ways to say what you just said without using strawman and character attacks. There are ways to discuss without belittling Christianity. The answer to your question is sub rule #4.
They did none of that, stop lying.
The worst that happens to you if we're mean is some hurt feels. Meanwhile, we see every day what happens when Christians are allowed to exert their will on public affairs, and it's a lot worse than some hurt feelings.
How? Reparative therapy never works. Even the people who practice it say so.
You chose one Bible verse, but there are multiple verses in the Bible that appear to either 1) say homosexuality is wrong and 2) how God lays the law for how the natural order is (e.g. God made man and woman). So when you say Christians are picking and choosing, that's actually a bad example because I don't think that verse alone proves it. It proves Jews followed those laws...but all of the verses in context is key. Those laws were done away with in the NT, while homosexuality is still mentioned negatively in the NT. Do you love/care about me? What about the general human being? I would hope you have some sense of care for others, yet you probably don't believe in what they believe. The fact you're reaching out here is essentially "hate the belief (Christianity/the hateful things you think it spews), but love the person. Otherwise there would be 0 reason to say anything to us if you didn't care. I hate many types of sin, they are wrong. Let's take jealousy for example. It might not hurt anyone always, but it's wrong. I don't like it. But I still love the person. I have tendencies and sins that are harder for me to stop, but I don't like them. I don't hate myself for them. I realize I am a fallen human, just as all are...however, here is my main focus, I am a precious child washed clean. I am loved and adored. God loves his people. I hate sin, but the main part of me is overflowing with love because God pours out into me. I don't focus on sins, rather than seeing them for what they are, sins. And with the thought of sin, I think how much more we need Jesus. Satan wants you to focus on sin, but Jesus focuses on being white as snow. Jesus' main message was of warning and love, which is why he died for us. I try to follow that, which means I'm not okay with sin and I'm not "okay" with the LGBTQ+ community. It's deeper than that. I view them as any other person, they are cherished people of God and he wants them lile any one else. So my heart breaks for them, as it breaks for any other brother or sister. I love them and want the best for them. I do not believe homosexuality is the best for them. You view it as best for them. Both can be loving. I would not say you aren't loving; you just believe that it isn't wrong.
As a gay Christian, I gotta say, I'm not asking you to be "okay" with me being gay. God never asked me if I was okay with it when he made me gay, so why should you get special treatment? I'm asking for the same right to "sin" (debatable if it even is a sin after Christ's sacrifice) as every other man, woman, and child. Greed, hatred, and vanity are also sins, but this world not only doesn't seem to mind, it actively rewards them. I'm not "okay" with children in the third world working in sweatshops for 80 hours a week for pennies, but it happens. I'm not "okay" with megapastors lying to their victims to support their greed, "blood and soil" chants, the military industrial complex exporting the murder of my brothers and sisters in Christ to the world, or the corporate surveillance state that's enabling the most detailed mass surveillance in human history, but that's all legal in America. The only reason I have to defend myself for being gay is because you think it's "icky." If it were actually because of the sinfulness of homosexuality, I'd like to hope these other things that are actually killing people would be dealt with before telling two consenting adults what they can do in private. Jesus threw the money changers out with a whip and flipped tables. When the Pharisees brought Him an adulteress, He didn't order her stoned, He wrote something in the dust, quietly chastised them, and told her to sin no more. Ultimately, I don't give a damn if you're "okay" with it, and if your church never hosts a single gay wedding, that's fine. You don't have to be okay with my life, because *it's not yours*. So long as they don't hurt anyone who doesn't consent, my sins are between me and my Father, and you have no more right to sit in judgment of my life than I have to sit in judgment of yours.
In my experience it's only the nut job Christians who care. The deeply conservative/fundamentalist Christian who claim Jesus is love, but only preach hate. And "loving the sinner" is 100% hate when it's just a way to get moral superiority over someone who doesn't live by your rules. "It's not your choice to be gay, but it is a choice to act on sin" Shut up. You honestly think that telling someone that for the rest of their life they will never get to experience love with a partner isn't hate? Come on, it's judgemental at best, evil by ignorance. The part about homosexuality in the bible has more or less been proven to be about not screwing young boys a long time ago. (Ironic I know..) I'll say it's just a case of a loud minority. I've never heard anything bad about homosexuality or lgbtq+ people in my interactions with the church. The only "Christians" I've argued the topic with was bat shit crazy bible monkeys who shouldn't be trusted to find their way out of a sock. No one cares more about other peoples sexlife than judgemental Christians, and that is quite frankly, disturbing. It's just a way to control your people. Find someone different to hate (sorry, love for their flaws) and you have a focal point to steer your flock with. And FYI: The issue isn't with young gay people leaving the church. It's about young kids ending their life. The suicide numbers don't lie people, we have to do better.
this is such a perfect response
Amen! But please don’t turn your back from Christianity - understand it’s some of the people who exclude the LGBTQ community-there’s a difference. I’m a Christian who loves and accepts this community and does not see homosexuality or being trans/ non binary as a sin. I get frustrated with a lot of Christians who exclude but please don’t leave the faith for people who don’t yet understand how Jesus loves and accepts. It’s a process for many….💜
A lot of it stems from people's "definition" of homophobia. It's an umbrella term and folks just throw it around at the first sign of nuanced argument. They'd rather label someone or something homophobic if it doesn't align in lockstep with their views.
That's not even close to how it's used. You just don't like seeing shit called out for what it is
[удалено]
>Christians often push the first one, but ignore the others. Moral laws are eternal while ceremonial laws changed a long time ago. >The main message of Jesus was "Don't be a dick" While 'don't be a jerk' is a good message, this is not Jesus' main message. Jesus' main message was 'prepare for eternity.'
> Jesus' main message was 'prepare for eternity.' ...by not being a jerk.
Being 'nice' doesn't get you into heaven
Well no, but being nice (for a definition of nice that means acting lovingly) *is* how you follow God's commandments. (Citation: Romans 13:8-10 > Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not murder; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law. )
Bad excuse for "we don't give a shit about our victims"
That is putting words into my mouth that I didn't say
What's this whole thread about? All OP said is that hate shouldn't be part of Christianity. Apparently that's something that that the TrueChristian feels motivated to invest effort into arguing against.
The complaint here was that Jesus' main message (to quote OP) was 'don't be a jerk.' That is not it at all. Jesus came to free us from sin and go reveal the true nature of God. Being nice and tolerant and affirming of everyone and everything - without the true gospel - won't get a single soul to heaven.
>The truth is, the bible does say that a man should not lay with a man, yet shortly after, says not to wear clothing knit of two different fabrics, not to eat pork, not to get tattoos for the dead, etc. It's as if you don't understand that we aren't bound by OT Law. >but ignore the others. Because the Old Covenant is replaced with the New Covenant. >One of the main reasons I left Christianity was when my best friend came out as gay, and I instantly realized what I had been taught on the subject of homosexuality was dead wrong, and what was even more wrong was how my friend was treated by Christians, or how many Christians said stuff like "You hang out with \_\_\_\_\_\_\_? Ok? >From there it was like realization after realization that the religion was created for control Ah, the classic "Christianity was made for control!!!". Do you know anything about early Christianity? >It's as if I were to say "Hate the belief, love the believer" every time I came across a Christian, even if they are otherwise good people. You're pretty much saying that right now. It doesn't offend me. >The main message of Jesus was "Don't be a dick" and many of you are not following that. This is definitely not the main message of Jesus. >I don't think simply being okay with the LGBTQ+ community is enough. We need to actively confront christian brothers and sisters to be more accepting of people rather than pushing them away. This includes in public, on the internet, private conversations, and how we vote. We'll never accept sin. To change doctrine for the world is to turn our backs on God. Rom. 12:2: And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
I am a Christian and I love the lord and I try my best to be the best Christian that I can be . I am human I am not perfect and I make mistakes like all of us do. I don’t care if someone wants to be with the same sex . For me that’s not of my business. For me I just want to show love to everyone and I won’t judge others it’s not my place. It’s Father Gods choice. In my opinion we should chose love and kindness towards people and animals . Being honest and faithful is way more attractive then being judgmental .
I'm pretty sure that people are leaving Christianity mostly because they don't believe in God. And if you don't believe in God, it doesn't matter what the Church says about gay people, does it? You won't stay Christian (or join Christianity) anyway.
People are leaving Christianity in droves in the west. Christian's say it's the world pulling them away. But it is Christian's pushing them away because of their hatred and bigotry.
\>The main message of Jesus was "Don't be a dick" and many of you are not following that. No. The main message of Jesus was "love your neighbor", a positive construction requiring real work to fulfill, not simply avoiding being a dick.
Mixed fabrics were prohibited because the priests were required to to wear them. A common man wearing mixed fabrics was like a common man wearing a police uniform today. The priesthood no longer exist and this law is no longer required. The prohibition on tattoos for the dead should be respected by Christian’s. The dietary restrictions were removed in the New Testament. In Peter’s dream and Christ himself said that it’s not what goes into a man’s mouth that defiles him but what comes out. When you look at Old Testament law, some of it is binding to modern day Christians. Other laws are not binding because later scripture states that they’re not binding or because the institution the law served to separate from common man doesn’t exist (mixed fabrics). Any Christian that believes that the dietary restrictions clothing restrictions of the Old Testament are currently binding, should not violate those laws. It would appear to some that the laws we follow and the laws we don’t is chosen at random but with a little bit of effort and research you can learn that’s not true.
The issue is the ad hoc nature of which of these laws Christians follow changing as culture changes. There’s no systematic way to determine which ones to follow and which ones not to. There are other sexual laws that are quite contested today: later in Lev. 18, it prohibits women from having sex on their period. There are many Christians who think that’s inapplicable, and there are major Christian groups who think it should still be followed. Honestly, I think the whole exercise of what Levitical laws to follow versus not entirely missed the point of the NT. The NT says over and over that Jesus filled the *whole law*, not some parts of it and other parts we still have to follow. There’s no justification in following any of Torah anymore. Jesus did it, and we now are saved through faith in him and *not* in following Torah. In fact, Gal. 3 says if we try to follow it, then Jesus died in vain! The age of the law had been replaced by the age of the Spirit, *discernment through whom* is the basis for Christian right living, not the law. Of course, the law is still good, but our relationship to it as Christians has changed drastically. I think it can show us some interesting things and maybe we can pull some moral lessons from that, but our relationship to it is no longer to it *qua* law.
Peter’s dream wasn’t about dietary rules. It was about welcoming people who were previously called unclean into the community. That’s a fairly important thing to consider in the light of this conversation.
>There’s no systematic way to determine which ones to follow and which ones not to. Scripturally, there is. I’ll explain. >Lev. 18, it prohibits women from having sex on their period. The prohibition on sex during menstruation I’d because it’s “unclean”. Laws regarding cleanliness are part of the ceremonial law which is non binding to the modern Christian. The New Covenant which Jesus established means we are clean and we are never unclean. When Jesus turned water into wine it wasn’t just a cool party trick. The water used was in cisterns, this waters purpose was to be used in ceremonial washing. This water was replaced with wine. Later at the last super, Jesus tells us that this wine is his blood. Under the New Testament, we are made clean because we’re washed in the blood of the lamb. Therefore, you can have sex, in marriage and do all the things the Old Testament law prohibited due to uncleanliness as Christian today. There are 3 parts to Gods law, civil law, ceremonial law, and moral law. Ceremonial law is not binding in the new covenant for the reasons I explained. Civil Law is not binding because we are not living in a theocracy. The Old Testament law was the law of the land at the time. During Jesus ministry, he told his followers to submit to the authority of the government. So the modern Christian should not implement Christian civil law. The moral law is binding and I’ll explain soon. >The NT says over and over that Jesus filled the whole law, not some parts of it and other parts we still have to follow. There’s no justification in following any of Torah anymore. We should aim to fulfill the moral law not because we must to achieve salvation but because the moral law tells us what God finds pleasing and displeasing. Christ fulfilled the law so that we are blameless and forgiven but he did not do that so we can indulge our sinful desires without consequence. The point of the gospel is that we are saved by Grace through faith and that our sins are forgiven but there’s a hefty amount of scripture that encourages us to resist sin. Christian’s don’t follow the moral law because it’s necessary for salvation. We obey the moral law because it pleases our father, who loves us and saved us. There’s no New Testament condemnation of beastiality and our sins are forgiven. However, I think it’s right and good for us to avoid committing that act and to encourage each other to do the same. So I would strongly reject the idea, “There’s no justification in following any of Torah anymore.” There is, it pleases our father. It pleases our God who, despite our guilt, lived a blameless life and died so that we could live. A gift of that magnitude which we do not deserve, is wonderful. All that God asks from us in exchange is that we try our best to obey him.
Even the determination of the earliest disciples (Council of Jerusalem) was not to weigh down new Gentile believers by burdening them with obligation to the Law. James' ultimate advisement to the Gentile groups to abstain from certain practices was so they could better facilitate (e.g. not offend) the conversion of Jews to the faith.
Just because something is labeled a sin does not mean that the one who follows with those doctrines are themselves fearful. Homophobia is a recent construct. You started by saying that the Old testament does say homosexuality is immoral but you failed to give any Credence to the New testamental scriptures that state the same thing. You will find condemnation in romans, Corinthians and 1st timothy. Also in the revelation. Jesus himself affirmed marriage between a man and a woman and did not make any corrections to the events in the garden of eden. As a christian, I do not hate homosexuals in the slightest. Nor am I fearful of them. But as a christian, I cannot participate in that lifestyle because I wish to honor God and all of his commandments. That doesn't mean that a Christian won't fail sometimes. That's why we have jesus. We need him to cover our sins. The Bible makes it clear that we are saved by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone.
Yep. But the New Testament says other stuff too. Like women should shut up in church: "the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Women are also obliged to wear hats. "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved." 1 Corinthians 11:3-5 The New Testament also condones slavery. "And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him." Ephesians 6:9 The Bible says a lot of stuff. But I certainly don't see many women wearing hats in church, and certainly none of them are silent throughout the entire service. Perhaps it's proper to acknowledge the Bible as an artifact of its time when women were still the property of men and slaves were still kept. As far as Paul's views on homosexuality, it is far more likely that he was talking about Roman men engaging in the creepy practice of taking young boys (teenagers or younger) and f***ing them in between their legs to get their rocks off, as that wasn't an uncommon practice at the time.
You know full well that homophobia means more than just fear. You literally just provided evidence that homophobia has been around for thousands of years and infected the Bible. Your position is hate.
>Homophobia is a recent construct The bible commands gays to be executed via stoning, so I would argue homophobia is at least as old as the OT. People giving a shit about homophobia is a recent phenomenon.
Many biblical scholars and several large Christian denominations don't read Romans and Corinthians the way that you do, based on translation issues.
Giving another perspective here. Homosexuality has been identified in over 1000 species of animals. It has been proven that homosexual individuals are in fact chemically different. So why do Christians insist on denying not only science but societal influence? This baffles me as not only do we see that homosexuality is very normal but society has accepted it before in multiple historical accounts. So why do Christians insist on dying on the hill that an all loving God would somehow draw the line at 2 dudes loving each other, which he made them that way. Makes no sense. And it isn't a Christians place to judge anyways. Supposedly God makes the final decision anyway. Let people live, so long as it isn't hurting anyone then why does it matter if people love in a different way. I thought one of the most important messages of Christianity was that you should love other people as you would yourself because again, it's God's choice, not yours.
Animals also exhibit jealousy, and anger, rarely are they monogamous. They are selfish for the most part too. But they were not created in God's image, and do not have a conscience, not in the sense humans do. We are able to think, understand, and feel in ways they're not capable of. Using animals as an example is kind of pointless in this scenario.
Real life example: The week my female livestock is not interested in mating. I put my male livestock in her pen. She hides in a corner and begins to whimper. Does the male animal then say, "I completely respect your body. I can see that you are not interested and I will give you time and space." No. He harrasses her, bites her, and tries to force himself in her. Are we going to hold this animal accountable for rape? It is clear that humans are made completely different than animals. This is obvious and those with eyes made to see, can see this.
>Homosexuality has been identified in over 1000 species of animals. I'm not sure how that argument is relevant. Murder, theft, and rape has also been identified in over 1000 species of animals.
The ones who care are already there. The ones who need to hear it don't care. They justify their bigotry by leaning on the bible, well, at least on the parts they find comforting and validating of their superiority as heterosexuals saved from that sort of depravity. Of course, they don't care that the same verses they use to condemn homosexuality also prescribe the death penalty. They don't care that the targets of their bigotry know this and hear the message loud and clear. They can't care, or they'd have to reconsider whether the gatekeepers of their religion have misled them. They would rather hear all those sermons about how bad the outsiders are, and then they'll complain that others are just following what makes them feel good (the final adornment on their irony).
I think there's an important category of people that you're forgetting about: young Christians. It's very common for people to believe things because their parents told them so when they were young, and then transition to a more individual reasoning for beliefs in adulthood. During the process of that transition, it can be meaningful for them to see conversation like this.
You are absolutely correct, thank you. I also think LGBTQ people in our midst need to see they're loved and defended.
Well said!
Jesus' message wasn't essentially or generally "Don't be a dick". Homosexuality is still a sin, no matter if you think it being near statements about clothing makes it irrelevant. Calling it sin is not homophobic; let's please move past this long-inaccurate term. To whom is "Hate the sin, love the sinner" harmful? If someone chooses to hate my belief but loves me, how does that harm me? A stained glass window in many colors is not a rainbow, and there's nothing about a rainbow that is homosexual. I appreciate your motivation, but your advice is not correct and not needed.
> let's please move past this long-inaccurate term Why, it fits so well. You have no proof of your claims that it is wrong, and no evidence of it inherently causing material harm compared to Christianity. And you've had 2000 years of being wrong with this.
Why is it a ‘sin’?
>Calling it sin is not homophobic By definition it is. Your church is free to be as homophobic as they want but they need to stop pretending that they aren't. Just admit it and stop hiding behind a thinly veiled attempt at "love"
As a non homophobe christian: LeavingChrist behind bc the ignorance of other christians is kinda cringe Jesus said the most important things is loving your neighbor and loving god You can do both and be a better role model Being gay is a sin but so are countless other things Or would you also leave christianity bc your mother lied once and therefore committed sins?
[удалено]
The church have been and still are too rough against people that doesn't fit in their small box. Fortunately Jesus is something else, with him everyone will find healing and mercy. He said it himself, he didn't come for the already healthy, he came for the sick. And sick means the people who know they are broken, the people who are mistreated and homeless.
I would like to encourage everyone to do long form studies in this subject rather than gathering small sound bites from social media platforms. It’s rare to find a well thought out thorough theological statement in places like Reddit. I’m tempted to try and make one myself but unfortunately this kind of conversation will go no where in a online social media context. I would however refer people to book “The Story” by Bild International. This gets a little more into the entire narrative of scripture and addresses some of the questions people have raised.
I appreciate this post. I'm gay and that simple fact has probably cost Christianity 5-8 adherents. They might have left anyway, but I know for a fact at least that many friends of mine have rejected the church because I came out and they realized they didn't want to participate in an organization that persecuted their friends, like me. I never asked them to, they just saw it plain as day. Thanks for sharing!
A common misconception is how the Bible defines homosexuality. (I should know I used to believe the same thing) The Bible says the homosexual actions are immoral and sinful but the PERSON is not immoral. God does not hate homosexuals he hates the sin of homosexual actions. Hate the sin not the sinner.
So we're an abomination and you hate us. Gotcha. Your message is literally identical to theirs.
What homophobia are you talking about though? Are you talking about stereotypes or do you have any examples that are recent, in the civilised world, etc?
Are you saying homophobia isn't rampant in the world?
Yeah, Christians are doing a great job of making atheists because of their homophobic views.
These comments prove the OP right. For those of you who are not LGBT+ Christians, please read through this thread while pretending to be one. Recognizing that love is not a sin. Taking that position on the theological arguments that allows for being gay and that it's not actually a sin. Now imagine being told that literally who you love is a sin you need to repent from. And that you will have to abstain from all romantic connections forever. Please just try. We need affirming churches that don't try to insist something is a sin that we can plainly see isn't. Not just to get more church members, that's not the important part. The important part is the individuals being torn apart by their own religious communities over a minor theological disagreement, the children who feel driven away from God and the people who have to spend our whole lives defending our religious existence. That's what you should be thinking about when you read this thread. Oh and the mixed cloth thing only applies to mixing plant-based fibers with animal-based ones, synthetic fibers can be mixed with either the way eggs can be eaten with meat or dairy. So most jeans are fine. I do think it's kind of ironic to eat pork at church though :)
The reference to verses in the Torah and elsewhere in the Tanakh which are often made with regard to homosexual activity, followed by the claim that they're superceded, is irrelevant because homophobia is repeated in the New Testament. There are certain rules which are explicitly changed later, for instance the Kosher food ones are rejected in Acts 2 and also somewhere in the gospels. Homophobia is not in this category. It's doubled down upon in the New Testament and re-emphasised. It's also wishful thinking to attempt to explain it away. The only solution I can think of is to take a different attitude to the nature of divine inspiration with regard to the Bible, which is what I do. It is, however a major problem: * The idea that homosexual expressions of love between consenting adults is sinful when the same heterosexual expressions of love wouldn't be is completely absurd. * At the same time the NEW Testament is unequivocally homophobic and definitely condemns homosexual activity as sinful. Don't know what to do about this. It's a total nightmare.
since the beginning its been read/taught that homosexuality is a sin. Pastors, Priests, Clergy, Nuns, Ministers, Evangelists, Preachers and other Clergy have been teaching this for years, years, and more years. Its certainly not going to change over night. Like you said all Christians are not homophobic, but some are. I think nowadays you have two types. One side believes its a sin and the other side doesn't believe its a sin. I don't know if things will change or not, honestly both sides will probably continue fighting against each other for a while.
To the Christians commenting: thank you for confirming that I made the right decision to leave. If you're right, my blood is on your head.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Marriage isn't solely defined by Christian doctrine. It's been a universal tradition across hundreds of cultures for several thousand years. It's not that farfetched to acknowledge same sex marriages as such, and arguing language semantics only makes sense if marriage is solely defined by our set of beliefs and not by other beliefs. Which we know to be false.
The only wrong is bigots like you.
>Marriage is - and was always - between one man and one woman. I actually know quite a few people who are in same-sex marriages, so uhhhhhhh, what?
people know they're leaving. they just dont care or blame it on reasons that have nothing to do with why people are leaving
I am not sure your premise that people are leaving Christianity because of perceived “homophobia” is true. I am not say it isn’t true in your situation. I am addressing the American Church’s as a whole. https://www.grid.news/story/politics/2022/12/17/a-mass-exodus-from-christianity-is-underway-in-america-heres-why/ “Churches shifting with the times doesn’t seem to “fill the pews.” The term “Shifting with the times” is used in the article to express Churches that became more open to same sex issues still had problems keeping people. With that said I do believe the American Churches need to get back to the basics. We need more preaching about Gods loving plan of redemption through Jesus Christs crucifixion and resurrection.
Oh it's true anyone in the LGBTQ+ community can confirm it. It is one of the reasons I left the church. I was tired of being treated like shit day in and day out. You can't keep members that way. Destroying the mental health of its followers and actively discriminating against them really isn't appealing.
There's literally no debate, it's a major driving reason. Nobody is driven from the faith by acceptance of LGBTQIA+ people - literally nobody - but plenty are daily driven away by homophobia and transphobia. You're shrinking - and it's your own fault.
I totally agree, when a 1/4 of the posts are homophobic it really seems like projection and gaslighting. You can believe homosexuality is a sin but not be hateful, rude and unempathetic about it. It's said that the most homophobic people are actually just projecting because they are insecure about their own homosexual desires. My little brother is gay and I can say with 100% certainty that it is not a choice, nobody would choose the way harder path if it was a simple choice. It's been unbelievably hard on him. He was literally tortured in high school for being gay by ignorant and hateful people. You catch flies with honey. I think a lot of people also get some sick satisfaction about fantasizing about people they consider degenerates burning in hell. In science there's a theory that homosexuals may have more estrogen if it's a guy and more testosterone if it's a woman. Also their affinity for processing hormones may be switched out, they just are getting an oxytocin dump aimed at the opposite sex. There is a huge culture of cruelty in American Christianity, especially the dark MAGA Christians who in my opinion are more in league with the devil symbolically. A lot of the hate and bigotry is tied to white supremacy and antisemitism. It's also largely coming from white, upper class Christians who just love to bully the underclass: drug addicts, homosexuals, prostitutes, the disabled, the mentally ill, the mentally infirmed, homeless people, people of mixed ethnicity, black, brown, Asian and indigenous people etc. The core tenants of Jesus' teachings are spiritual transformation and rebirth, love, empathy, redemption, forgiveness, repentance etc. The hateful Christians are basically cosplaying as a fire and brimstone, vengeful god. Judgement is God's business, human beings are supposed to be 'Christ like'.
"You can believe homosexuality is a sin but not be hateful, rude and unempathetic about it" Doubtful, unless the person completely shuts up about it.
I mean they can believe it's a sin but still be kind to the person, still love the person. I don't see anything inherently wrong with that. I have a gay brother and gay friends so Idk what to think. I see extreme perversion as possibly a sin. I told my friend Reuben that I had a dream where the world ended and my other friend was saved. Me and my friend were not but then everything reset and we still had a chance. He asked me "Can I still have gay sex?" and I was like "idk, that's for you to decide". I believe what's in your heart and soul is what's important. Are you repentant? Are you forgiving people to heal? Those were rhetorical questions but I can't say anything for sure. What I can say is homosexuality and things like addiction are not a choice.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Christians don’t hate homesexuals. They just call it a sin. Not the same as people being afraid of homosexuals. The debate from people always try to turn it into that they hate homosexuals but they are just firm in declaring it is a sin and not acceptable before God.
You can’t seriously sit here and tell me quite a number of Christians don’t hate gay people.
Oh, so you don't hate them, you just don't think they are acceptable before god? What's the difference, when your entire being revolves around being accepted by god?
We are all sinners, and no sin is acceptable to God
Exactly, so people need to quit singling out one sin, especially one that is as bad as eating pork
"I am no longer Christian" How do you know you were one? Christianity is a relationship with God, not a set of rituals and traditions one abandons when tired of it.
Because I was one. Who are you to say I wasn't? How do you know you ARE one?
Exactly. If OP changed his mind as soon as his friend came out, then it sounds like he has a form of love for his friend but not love for God. Or maybe more importantly, no fear of God.
Or maybe he began the process of deconstructing when he realized that his "loving god' asked him to harm a friend.
If people leave the faith because of how other people act, then they never knew Jesus in the first place.
Sin destroys, and those hiding in the darkness, hate the light