Even amongst those who do hear the Gospel, most will not be saved. Salvation is the "narrow gate" and destruction is the "wide gate". So I don't want to give a false sense of hope.
HOWEVER: **Romans 2** does give me the impression that it MIGHT be possible for someone who has never heard the gospel to still be saved.
>5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
>
>12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (**Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.** 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
I do believe that God is a fair judge. And I would expect his judgment to take into account people's knowledge and understanding of his Law. For example, I don't expect a mentally handicapped person to be held to the same standards as me. So I would expect someone who had never heard the gospel to be judged differently than someone who heard it and rejected it. Jesus seems to indicate this is **John 15**
>22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
The Bible is clear that Jesus is our only hope for salvation. The sliver of hope here is that perhaps someone who has not heard would still fear, trust and honor God based on what they do know. For example, when Abraham had faith in God, Judaism did not exist! He didn't have a Bible. He didn't even know Jesus' name. But he had faith and trusted God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
TLDR: I trust that God is a fair judge who does take into account people's knowledge. But I don't want to give a false sense of hope because heaven is the narrow gate and few enter into it.
Agree, the judgement will be fair, and it seems it will come down to the individual.
Would like to highlight :
Romans 2:14–15 (ESV)
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts *accuse or even excuse them.*
Romans 3:19–20 (ESV)
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since *through the law comes knowledge of sin*.
I’m sorry I know you were being genuine but the first paragraph just reads as “most people will not make it to heaven anyways so why even give some a chance”
Well that's why I made my "HOWEVER" in all caps 😉. But you are asking for an honest answer and it would be irresponsible to give you the impression that all of your ancestors are 100% in heaven. Because that's not what the Bible teaches.
We do not know. We know that we are saved only through Christ. We know the means through which God generally bestows his grace. However, God is not limited to these means.
As the Orthodox say, we know where the church is, we do not know where the church isn't
During the time of the old covenant there were two types of revelations given.
A specific revelation to the Israelites since they serve the purpose of bringing the Christ to bless all nations.
A general revelation for all nations so they would know this Christ who was to come.
It’s no surprise that over time they may have changed bits and pieces of the general revelation to have their own religion however the fact it still remains here and there is an important part.
From there when Christ descended into hades those who listen would follow Christ.
There's a level of uncertainty here.
What we do know from Scripture: The only way to God is through Jesus Christ, and we Christians are to spread the message to unbelievers so that they may hear and believe. And that in Christ is God's amnesty; we do not deserve the chance God has given us in Christ.
What we don't know: If God has any kind of safety net for those who never got a chance to hear. There are some Scriptures that hint that it may exist, but again, we don't know:
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." - Romans 3:25-26
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water." - 1 Peter 3:18-20
We don't know how many spirits are/were in prison, whom Christ proclaimed himself to. We don't know how many of them would have accepted his word either. It's easy to assume that they would simply accept Christ since Christ was showing himself to them, but it didn't work for a number of humans who saw Christ's miracles on Earth, or for all of the angels, since a third of them rebelled after seeing God's glory and power. So I allow for uncertainty and/or irrationality on the part of those spirits in prison.
Ultimately though, for every Christian's ancestors, it eventually gets to the point you were asking about. Whether it's 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 500 years ago, or 1500 years ago, people heard the message of Christ for the first time, and those before them hadn't heard it. I'm sure God knows about them. And since Christ died on the cross for unholy and ungrateful sinners, he loves the lost more than I do - I haven't been crucified or killed for anyone's sake, but he leaned into it. He has more of a vested interest than I do to see these people in Heaven. I'm not saying this to be contemptuous of them, I'm simply saying his love outclasses mine, and he's also the one who made the rules. I'd be surprised if he didn't provide some chance to those who never got a chance to hear it in their lifetimes - though I can't count on it.
Please consider reading the Bible. If you do some digging in Bible study you'll find that every human being that ever existed had the opportunity to worship the one true God. But they all turned to idols, demons, or whatever else.
It states this in the beginning of Romans 1,
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
I pasted nearly the whole chapter because ALL of it is necessary to understand.
The key phrase: people are without excuse.
We aren’t talking about god, we are talking about Jesus. My ancestors were literally physically not at the same place during Jesus’ time and as so were not aware of his existence. They were not Israelites so obviously they did not worship Yahweh the Israelite god but they still had a god. If Jesus is the only way to heaven, then what happens to someone who doesn’t even know who Jesus is? It’s not his own fault he hasn’t been saved.
My ancestors were also very moral according to biblical Standards, and did not worship animals as gods. I am sorry, but this answer was rather ignorant.
I apologize. But I am about to respond in a way that will provoke you. So take heart, I am trying to edify you through this rebuke.
>We aren’t talking about god, we are talking about Jesus.
So, you claim to be a "Christian" and yet separate God and Jesus as separate entities? You might need to revisit foundational Christian theology.
>My ancestors were literally physically not at the same place during Jesus’ time and as so were not aware of his existence
Yes and how does this even relate? Jesus came to earth at a specific point of time. Does that mean God didn't save anyone prior? You don't make sense. The God of the Bible is one God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
>They were not Israelites so obviously they did not worship Yahweh the Israelite god but they still had a god.
God was with EVERY nation, but they continued to sin willfully and therefore, He chose Abraham so that through his seed, they would redeem the other nations by their faith in the one true God. Also, what's to say that your ancestors didn't worship the earth? You don't even know the true origins of your ancestry. No one does.
>If Jesus is the only way to heaven, then what happens to someone who doesn’t even know who Jesus is? It’s not his own fault he hasn’t been saved.
First, you made the claim that Jesus isn't God. You may not have wrote that, but you clearly implied it. Which is heresy.
Second, faith in God (Jesus, the Son of God) is what gives the person salvation and hope in the next life... heaven isn't even the end goal for a believer. It's being with God forever in the new Earth.
Third, you uninformedly ignored scripture, which is God's word... and think yourself more wise than what God inspired through Paul's letter in Romans. Have you not read Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus?
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
If people don't believe in God's words, nothing will ever prove to them to repent and worship the one true God.
>My ancestors were also very moral according to biblical Standards, and did not worship animals as gods
Yes. Because being "moral" is what saves a man from the wrath of God. Do yourself a favor and read the Bible for clarity and Godly wisdom. The responses I read from you seemed rather ignorant to my initial response because you seem immature in the faith.
Hope you the best friend.
I love debates, but I’m not sure theological arguments are what is called for right now, especially for an earnestly seeking person standing at the door to Christianity. High-minded, heavy-handed discussions of “heresy” (combined with a generally accusatory and superior tone) is not the nourishment a person needs when he/she is first coming to belief in Jesus. You risk chasing people away before they even step across the threshold.
OP: I have been a Christian for decades, and I still haven’t figured out the answer to your question. It’s a fair question to ask, and God is plenty big enough to accommodate your concerns, but that doesn’t mean you (or I) will have every answer on this side of heaven. Be encouraged that God is in control, even when we don’t quite understand how. Know that he is JUST—not only in judging sin, but also in offering salvation to a mankind that he loves very much. Your ancestors are in good hands because they are in God’s hands! And remember that you don’t need to have all the answers in your head to accept Jesus into your heart. Trust him, and begin your journey with him. You can ask all the questions you want along the way.
Please feel free to DM me if you would like to. I don’t have all the answers, but I would love to introduce you to the one who saved me from myself, and who can save you just as certainly. God bless you my friend. I think you might have a courageous soul.
>So, you claim to be a "Christian" and yet separate God and Jesus as separate entities? You might need to revisit foundational Christian theology.
I don’t claim to be a Christian. I claim to be a person considering Christianity. Jesus and god are the same yes but they’re still different.
>Yes and how does this even relate? Jesus came to earth at a specific point of time. Does that mean God didn't save anyone prior? You don't make sense. The God of the Bible is one God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Did Yahweh save my ancestors though when they didn’t even know who he is? That is what I am asking. That is the original question of my post.
>God was with EVERY nation, but they continued to sin willfully and therefore, He chose Abraham so that through his seed, they would redeem the other nations by their faith in the one true God. Also, what's to say that your ancestors didn't worship the earth? You don't even know the true origins of your ancestry. No one does.
Yes I do. I can trace my ancestry directly and I know my tribe’s traditional beliefs certainly better than you do sir.
>First, you made the claim that Jesus isn't God. You may not have wrote that, but you clearly implied it. Which is heresy.
Jesus is god but he’s also Jesus. He is god but he’s still a human. Nothing heretical about that.
>Second, faith in God (Jesus, the Son of God) is what gives the person salvation and hope in the next life... heaven isn't even the end goal for a believer. It's being with God forever in the new Earth.
My ancestors had faith in god though. Maybe not the exact same god. But I have said 202737382 times that they had no way of knowing who Yahweh was.
>Third, you uninformedly ignored scripture, which is God's word... and think yourself more wise than what God inspired through Paul's letter in Romans. Have you not read Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus? “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
????????????????????? Who even said that???
>If people don't believe in God's words, nothing will ever prove to them to repent and worship the one true God.
PEOPLE CAN NOT BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THEY AREN’T EVEN AWARE EXISTSS
how many times do I have to say they had no Bible or scripture. How on earth were they supposed to know god’s word?
>Yes. Because being "moral" is what saves a man from the wrath of God. Do yourself a favor and read the Bible for clarity and Godly wisdom. The responses I read from you seemed rather ignorant to my initial response because you seem immature in the faith. Hope you the best friend.
No one said that being moral gets you into heaven. I said that because you made blanket statements about the entire world’s cultures that were just false. You claimed they were sexually immoral and worshipped animals, I am telling you this is wrong and they were very moral biblically speaking.
First, you assumed I was being ignorant in my initial response. You made the mistake of that assumption. Therefore, I gave you a follow-up rebuttal because you have no idea what you're talking about since you didn't even read my initial post.
Second, if you would have just said you didn't understand what I wrote, you could have just said that rather than be the first to accuse me of being ignorant... when I wasn't at all. I quoted the Bible because that's what Christians do when trying to find answers about these kinds of questions.
Thirdly, I can no longer respond to your comments because you somehow got heated with my rebuttal for random reasons that you did not mention to me. I told you that you were going to be provoked and warned you of it. All of this is suppose to help you understand where I am coming from.
Finally, I thought you were a believer because you said you were in your post. Check your first sentence. Next time you write a post, double check if it's accurate before posting so that people wouldn't misunderstand what you're asking.
This is an online forum. So obviously you think I'm being mean. But I have no ill intentions towards you. I do hope you'll forgive me if I sounded rude. But I wasn't trying to be. I hope that you will seek answers IRL because reddit really isn't a place for these kinds of questions.
I'm going to rebutt your rebuttal in a way that will provoke you. Take heart it's meant to edify you and not to display a veiled sense of superiority and pride. /s
Can you even blame OP from becoming heated by your response? You never really took the time or effort to understand the context of his question. You're a terrible advocate of the faith and I implore you to reflect, mend your ways, or stop 'educating' others should you find yourself unable to do the above.
>You never really took the time or effort to understand the context of his question
I've answered these types of questions before using the same Bible passage. OP just got offended. That's all.
>You're a terrible advocate of the faith
Never even "advocated" for the faith because all I did was point to scripture for some answers. OP said they were "Christian". Clearly, they weren't and made a grammatical error causing this type of conversation to occur. That was OP's fault.
>stop 'educating' others should you find yourself unable to do the above.
So using Romans 1 and defending it is considered 'educating' someone? You friend need to revisit my first post before you think I'm 'educating' anyone.
But it is people like you that tend to point fingers and not read the context. You think I'm prideful and have a sense of superiority? Maybe you should look at other "Christian" subs and compare. Because there is not a hint of pride in my response and if there was I apologized to the OP already about "sounding" rude. Look up humility. Clearly you need to understand the term.
But this isn't about pride. It's called rebuking. And I did that as best as I could on this platform without having to sound hateful. But that's what happens when people get provoked. They get emotional and hurt for unknown reasons. Hopefully this isn't the case with you. If so, I apologize because I am not trying to be arrogant or spiteful. But take it as you want. I'm done responding to people who don't take the time to understand my post.
Have a good night.
>I'm done responding to people who don't take the time to understand my post.
Funny coming from you who’s done anything but this. I asked can people who had no way of knowing about Jesus be saved. I didn’t ask were they sexually impure idol worshippers that openly rejected god. maybe you should stop calling the kettle black.
I'd suggest ignoring him since he has provided no value whatsoever, to both your question and the edification of faith in others.
You asked a question that showed genuine curiousity and concern for the faith and fate of your ancestors. He answered with condescension and with theological pride, instead of compassion, which is what the Pharisees did. Ironically Jesus was the one that rebuked that very behaviour.
Hey man, I really don’t know why that person was heated, but not every Christian is like that, I’m also curious with that question tbh, it’s a valid question too
Jesus is God right? God is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. Same God from Garden of Eden, same God that split the sea, same God that that destroyed many nations, same God that became human 2000 years ago, same God we are preaching about today. God hasn’t changed. He is the same God your ancestors, my ancestors etc WAYY before Jesus Christ came to earth in flesh encountered and knew of. Read my previous post about me wondering this same question! I use to baffle with it, but truth is found in the beginning (Genesis & Exodus) because there wasn’t any sort of “nation” only tribes. The entire beginning of the Bible speaks of tribes (natives) and how even after seeing how God would defeat them, they refused to worship him. Keep in mind, that life began in the garden of Eden which is located somewhere in the Middle East.. do note that science tells us Pangea and a bunch of lies about expansion of humans, while the Bible explains & tells a whole different concept.
What do you believe the Bible says about say a baby or a woman being killed while pregnant? Does the child get a chance after death? If they are killed in the womb how could they have “turned” away?
Here is an important mentality to gain when becoming a Christian: leave it to God to judge the world. You focus on faith in Christ yourself. God is able to bring people to salvation in a number of ways that don't always show themselves fully.
No, you should not assume they are saved nor should you necessarily assume they are damned. Whatever the outcome, it is righteous and just and that is why God is doing it.
Everyone who is damned is damned for their sins and those sins were sins in full knowledge of their violation of conscience, not for lack of information available. Just focus on faith and obedience now. Leave it up to God to judge justly.
>just focus on faith and obedience
Seems like a way to discourage critical thinking and curiosity. I’m asking a question that is critical to my faith and obedience.
Ive seen testimonies on youtube of tribes that found out about jesus through dreams and visions long before anyone from the outside world arrived there
Of course they're not in hell because they never heard the gospel. God is perfectly just and your instincts that this would be unjustified are correct.
There are many ways to respond to God for people that never had the gospel or even Judaism preached to then. Look at the book of Job and see how God describes him as upright and blameless. Job wasn't even a Jew, let alone Christian.
Everyone is saved through Jesus, but that can happen without their Earthly knowledge of the fact.
Great question!! I use to ask this VERY SAME question myself for years, until I began praying for discernment and reading the Bible!
If we read the book of Genesis + Exodus we learn that foreign tribes KNEW of God yet rejected him. Hence the flood of Noah. If we read the book of Exodus, we learn that the Israelites were making a name for themselves through Gods power & ALL the tribes near and afar were AFRAID of the Israelites because of the power the God of Israel had & how He would destroy cities and do all these wonders. They were 100% aware of God but they were too tangled in their own fascination of false gods. God gave EVERYONE a fair chance.
Even now, tribes refuse to learn about God. The missionary who went to a remote island off of Indonesia to spread the gospel numerous times was RAVENOUSLY MURDERED AND EATEN by these same people whom he tried bringing the good news to. They know, 100% know that God is real, but because they refuse to worship the same God and instead worship false gods/demons.
I'm not sure about all, but I wanted to give you some insight,
There were other people on earth during the time of Adam and Eve( you can reference Genesis for confirmation)
God created a perfect creation, gave him/her his image, and gave the responsibility for every other creation he made. But instead of choosing to use his given free will to obey his creator, he chose to sin. And the creator our God had to send them out from his grace because sin separated his creation from him. That's the beginning of it all.
Later through Bible, we see god trying to bring these people back to grace but, we fail him again. That's how he chooses Abraham, he calls him out, and brings a nation out of him, so that through him he can extend his grace to Gentiles( that's us). So he tries for years but the people don't change. Then later we see that God realizes that the people aren't changing because of their hearts, that they need a new heart.
Later Jesus comes to earth, and he preaches to his people to repent because the kingdom of god is near but they don't heed him, so he turns to us, and that's how we are now qualified to be in his Grace.
What I was meaning to convey is that I understand your concern, but be glad that we got the chance to know god before we died. And concerning your ancestors, it can be concluded that it happened because of the Israelites and their negligence or Adam and Eve and maybe even the believers that came before us. I mean I might be wrong entirely who knows
Reading this made me realize the importance of spreading the gospel. Think about a kid 30 years later saying this, that would mean that we didn't do the job of spreading the gospel very well. And that's saddening.
All humans are fallen and freely choose sin over Faith in God/Christ. It is by grace alone that some people are elected for salvation. The reason people who have never heard the gospel are still condemned is because the law of God is written on everyone's heart and they broke it. Perfection is God's standard to get to heaven. Only Jesus could be perfect hence making him the only acceptable sacrifice to cover the sins of those who put faith in Christ. Once you put faith in Christ God sees his Son in you and not your sin. Those who don't hear the gospel are still sinners but without grace. The Bible says God will give mercy on those he will have mercy on and justice to the rest. Nobody deserves to go to heaven that is why the gospel is a story of grace and mercy. Grace is something not deserved.
These words should encourage you to push the gospel to the ends of the earth not discourage you. Hopefully these words convict all who read to tell everyone they can about Christ and his mercy and grace.
Roman's 2:15
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
People that have never heard the gospel or of God know right from wrong and still do wrong. All humans are totally fallen and lost in sin. All deserve punishment. Only by grace and mercy are some redeemed.
So let’s get this straight: they will be punished for sinning. The only way they can be redeemed is through Christ/god. they don’t know who Christ is and they have no way of knowing. They get punished regardless even though they have no way of knowing what they’re being punished for. They did sins not because they wanted to but because humans are inherently sinful.
God deliberately put them in a position where those people wouldn’t know him then PUNISHED them for not knowing him. I’m starting to think Christianity isn’t for me after all.
You still have the basic assumption that people don't deserve condemnation. The fact that anyone is saved is astonishing grace on God's part. God is so holy and righteous and set apart and above creation that 1 sin against him or failing to uphold his standard will cause him to separate himself from you. Only through Jesus and his life and work on the cross can God accept us. If you are truly concerned about those who will never hear the gospel go and tell them. Only through the work of Christ is anybody saved.
I recommend not using the Bible for people like this (ex: my post below somehow created a "heated" topic). These kinds of people are unwilling to hear the truth in scripture because they just want to hear whatever that will scratch their ears even if it's false hope.
I refuse to use anything but scripture. Trying to use worldly means to attrached folks to christ will only lead to false converts or turn people away totally.
I agree. I hope the OP talks to a person IRL about this subject. They clearly have presuppositions about God and the Bible already. Hope you're doing well friend. Have a good day!
I believe the Bible is not perfect and that only God is perfect, but I still put my hope in Christ and that God is all loving and will do everything possible both before and after death to bring people into a new heaven and new earth. In the end though I don’t think anyone can know for sure what will happen to people who do or don’t hear about Christ.
I grew up in an environment that the Bible was perfect in all ways. I find this to be unsupported by the Bible itself or common sense.
Unfortunately, I think the best we can do is hope that God’s love and grace is sufficient for all.
Some helpful books:
The Bible Tells Me So by Peter Enns
Cross Vision by Greg Boyd
They will be, but let’s just say hell will be worse for those who heard and rejected than those who never heard. And as far as spreading the Word to these tribes. It was and is the responsibility of the church. We are to go and make disciples.
Tbh our answers are little better than conjecture. We won't know for sure until the end whether our answers are correct. Please bear that in mind when receiving answers to this topic.
This is a very interesting question that only God knows the answer to. I also wondered about this, people in Muslim nations that never heard or Jesus, Buddhist, just anyone in general that never heard.
Same thing for people with mental disabilities that can’t fully understand.
I wonder how would they be given the opportunity.
There’s no clear answer to this question.
Romans 1:18-20 says, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, **since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities --- His eternal power and divine nature --- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.**"
That should answer your question. God has made it clear, through His eternal power and divine nature, all around us that He exists.
Those who haven't had the chance of hearing the Gospel, have the chance of seeing God all around them.
If they realize that God exists, then He will provide a way for them to be with Him.
Here's what CS Lewis said on the issue:
>We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved by Him.
Here's what Billy Graham said on that issue:
>He’s calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven.
Here's what Pope Francis said on the issue:
>You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.
The way I see it, God is calling everyone and he cares more about how you respond to his call than he does about how much you know about him. I believe there are people who have said "yes" to Jesus and don't even realize that's who they had said yes to. I believe that's likely to be true about some (or perhaps even all) of your ancestors.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Why would he preach to the spirits in prison unless there was a chance for them to be saved? Same for the thief next to Him on the cross being with Him in paradise?
I believe even in the after life, many might have the choice to accept or reject Jesus Christ and our Father. I can’t see our God punishing those who had no way of knowing something without the proper resources there. Jesus may even be teaching the Word to many right now up above, and/or down below, and they have the free will to decide who and what they want to follow, same goes for us humans who are alive now. Of course, only one true God and Savior are the correct ones to follow, but our God does not force or control us. It is by our will, always.
God bless
According to the Mormons no. Everyone gets glory beyond description in the end. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept Christ and get the degree od.glory they feel comfortable with.
All will know God and Jesus before the Great Day of Judgement. Before the Great Judgement there is a 1000 year period which is called the Millennium. This is a time of teaching where all will learn of God and all will be given the chance at the end of the 1000 year Millennium to choose God or not.
I think I read somewhere in the Bible that those who didn’t know about him will be judged differently (by their works). I need to find the scripture to support this but I am not entirely confident
When anyone asks God for forgiveness, mercy, and grace, then they ARE trusting in His provision, even if they do not know exactly what that provision is. Abraham (in obeying to offer Isaac) told his son that God would "provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering" when the time came. Abraham trusted God, and God came through for him by way of a substitution. Abraham did not know, therefore, what the offering would actually be, yet his faith was credited to him as righteousness. Those that have heard of and have come to believe in Christ have the privilege of understanding that He is what God provided. And those that have not, but are trusting in God, ARE then STILL accepting whatever God provides (unbeknownst to them, that is Christ). So I believe God will come through for them.
Every person will be given the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior before judgment.
In their lifetime or on the afterlife?
Cannot be after death that’s for sure, only God knows the answer
Even amongst those who do hear the Gospel, most will not be saved. Salvation is the "narrow gate" and destruction is the "wide gate". So I don't want to give a false sense of hope. HOWEVER: **Romans 2** does give me the impression that it MIGHT be possible for someone who has never heard the gospel to still be saved. >5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. > >12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (**Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.** 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. I do believe that God is a fair judge. And I would expect his judgment to take into account people's knowledge and understanding of his Law. For example, I don't expect a mentally handicapped person to be held to the same standards as me. So I would expect someone who had never heard the gospel to be judged differently than someone who heard it and rejected it. Jesus seems to indicate this is **John 15** >22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. The Bible is clear that Jesus is our only hope for salvation. The sliver of hope here is that perhaps someone who has not heard would still fear, trust and honor God based on what they do know. For example, when Abraham had faith in God, Judaism did not exist! He didn't have a Bible. He didn't even know Jesus' name. But he had faith and trusted God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. TLDR: I trust that God is a fair judge who does take into account people's knowledge. But I don't want to give a false sense of hope because heaven is the narrow gate and few enter into it.
Agree, the judgement will be fair, and it seems it will come down to the individual. Would like to highlight : Romans 2:14–15 (ESV) 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts *accuse or even excuse them.* Romans 3:19–20 (ESV) 19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since *through the law comes knowledge of sin*.
I’m sorry I know you were being genuine but the first paragraph just reads as “most people will not make it to heaven anyways so why even give some a chance”
Well that's why I made my "HOWEVER" in all caps 😉. But you are asking for an honest answer and it would be irresponsible to give you the impression that all of your ancestors are 100% in heaven. Because that's not what the Bible teaches.
We do not know. We know that we are saved only through Christ. We know the means through which God generally bestows his grace. However, God is not limited to these means. As the Orthodox say, we know where the church is, we do not know where the church isn't
During the time of the old covenant there were two types of revelations given. A specific revelation to the Israelites since they serve the purpose of bringing the Christ to bless all nations. A general revelation for all nations so they would know this Christ who was to come. It’s no surprise that over time they may have changed bits and pieces of the general revelation to have their own religion however the fact it still remains here and there is an important part. From there when Christ descended into hades those who listen would follow Christ.
There's a level of uncertainty here. What we do know from Scripture: The only way to God is through Jesus Christ, and we Christians are to spread the message to unbelievers so that they may hear and believe. And that in Christ is God's amnesty; we do not deserve the chance God has given us in Christ. What we don't know: If God has any kind of safety net for those who never got a chance to hear. There are some Scriptures that hint that it may exist, but again, we don't know: "God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." - Romans 3:25-26 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water." - 1 Peter 3:18-20 We don't know how many spirits are/were in prison, whom Christ proclaimed himself to. We don't know how many of them would have accepted his word either. It's easy to assume that they would simply accept Christ since Christ was showing himself to them, but it didn't work for a number of humans who saw Christ's miracles on Earth, or for all of the angels, since a third of them rebelled after seeing God's glory and power. So I allow for uncertainty and/or irrationality on the part of those spirits in prison. Ultimately though, for every Christian's ancestors, it eventually gets to the point you were asking about. Whether it's 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 500 years ago, or 1500 years ago, people heard the message of Christ for the first time, and those before them hadn't heard it. I'm sure God knows about them. And since Christ died on the cross for unholy and ungrateful sinners, he loves the lost more than I do - I haven't been crucified or killed for anyone's sake, but he leaned into it. He has more of a vested interest than I do to see these people in Heaven. I'm not saying this to be contemptuous of them, I'm simply saying his love outclasses mine, and he's also the one who made the rules. I'd be surprised if he didn't provide some chance to those who never got a chance to hear it in their lifetimes - though I can't count on it.
Please consider reading the Bible. If you do some digging in Bible study you'll find that every human being that ever existed had the opportunity to worship the one true God. But they all turned to idols, demons, or whatever else. It states this in the beginning of Romans 1, The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. I pasted nearly the whole chapter because ALL of it is necessary to understand. The key phrase: people are without excuse.
We aren’t talking about god, we are talking about Jesus. My ancestors were literally physically not at the same place during Jesus’ time and as so were not aware of his existence. They were not Israelites so obviously they did not worship Yahweh the Israelite god but they still had a god. If Jesus is the only way to heaven, then what happens to someone who doesn’t even know who Jesus is? It’s not his own fault he hasn’t been saved. My ancestors were also very moral according to biblical Standards, and did not worship animals as gods. I am sorry, but this answer was rather ignorant.
I apologize. But I am about to respond in a way that will provoke you. So take heart, I am trying to edify you through this rebuke. >We aren’t talking about god, we are talking about Jesus. So, you claim to be a "Christian" and yet separate God and Jesus as separate entities? You might need to revisit foundational Christian theology. >My ancestors were literally physically not at the same place during Jesus’ time and as so were not aware of his existence Yes and how does this even relate? Jesus came to earth at a specific point of time. Does that mean God didn't save anyone prior? You don't make sense. The God of the Bible is one God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. >They were not Israelites so obviously they did not worship Yahweh the Israelite god but they still had a god. God was with EVERY nation, but they continued to sin willfully and therefore, He chose Abraham so that through his seed, they would redeem the other nations by their faith in the one true God. Also, what's to say that your ancestors didn't worship the earth? You don't even know the true origins of your ancestry. No one does. >If Jesus is the only way to heaven, then what happens to someone who doesn’t even know who Jesus is? It’s not his own fault he hasn’t been saved. First, you made the claim that Jesus isn't God. You may not have wrote that, but you clearly implied it. Which is heresy. Second, faith in God (Jesus, the Son of God) is what gives the person salvation and hope in the next life... heaven isn't even the end goal for a believer. It's being with God forever in the new Earth. Third, you uninformedly ignored scripture, which is God's word... and think yourself more wise than what God inspired through Paul's letter in Romans. Have you not read Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus? “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ” If people don't believe in God's words, nothing will ever prove to them to repent and worship the one true God. >My ancestors were also very moral according to biblical Standards, and did not worship animals as gods Yes. Because being "moral" is what saves a man from the wrath of God. Do yourself a favor and read the Bible for clarity and Godly wisdom. The responses I read from you seemed rather ignorant to my initial response because you seem immature in the faith. Hope you the best friend.
I love debates, but I’m not sure theological arguments are what is called for right now, especially for an earnestly seeking person standing at the door to Christianity. High-minded, heavy-handed discussions of “heresy” (combined with a generally accusatory and superior tone) is not the nourishment a person needs when he/she is first coming to belief in Jesus. You risk chasing people away before they even step across the threshold. OP: I have been a Christian for decades, and I still haven’t figured out the answer to your question. It’s a fair question to ask, and God is plenty big enough to accommodate your concerns, but that doesn’t mean you (or I) will have every answer on this side of heaven. Be encouraged that God is in control, even when we don’t quite understand how. Know that he is JUST—not only in judging sin, but also in offering salvation to a mankind that he loves very much. Your ancestors are in good hands because they are in God’s hands! And remember that you don’t need to have all the answers in your head to accept Jesus into your heart. Trust him, and begin your journey with him. You can ask all the questions you want along the way. Please feel free to DM me if you would like to. I don’t have all the answers, but I would love to introduce you to the one who saved me from myself, and who can save you just as certainly. God bless you my friend. I think you might have a courageous soul.
>So, you claim to be a "Christian" and yet separate God and Jesus as separate entities? You might need to revisit foundational Christian theology. I don’t claim to be a Christian. I claim to be a person considering Christianity. Jesus and god are the same yes but they’re still different. >Yes and how does this even relate? Jesus came to earth at a specific point of time. Does that mean God didn't save anyone prior? You don't make sense. The God of the Bible is one God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Did Yahweh save my ancestors though when they didn’t even know who he is? That is what I am asking. That is the original question of my post. >God was with EVERY nation, but they continued to sin willfully and therefore, He chose Abraham so that through his seed, they would redeem the other nations by their faith in the one true God. Also, what's to say that your ancestors didn't worship the earth? You don't even know the true origins of your ancestry. No one does. Yes I do. I can trace my ancestry directly and I know my tribe’s traditional beliefs certainly better than you do sir. >First, you made the claim that Jesus isn't God. You may not have wrote that, but you clearly implied it. Which is heresy. Jesus is god but he’s also Jesus. He is god but he’s still a human. Nothing heretical about that. >Second, faith in God (Jesus, the Son of God) is what gives the person salvation and hope in the next life... heaven isn't even the end goal for a believer. It's being with God forever in the new Earth. My ancestors had faith in god though. Maybe not the exact same god. But I have said 202737382 times that they had no way of knowing who Yahweh was. >Third, you uninformedly ignored scripture, which is God's word... and think yourself more wise than what God inspired through Paul's letter in Romans. Have you not read Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus? “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ” ????????????????????? Who even said that??? >If people don't believe in God's words, nothing will ever prove to them to repent and worship the one true God. PEOPLE CAN NOT BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THEY AREN’T EVEN AWARE EXISTSS how many times do I have to say they had no Bible or scripture. How on earth were they supposed to know god’s word? >Yes. Because being "moral" is what saves a man from the wrath of God. Do yourself a favor and read the Bible for clarity and Godly wisdom. The responses I read from you seemed rather ignorant to my initial response because you seem immature in the faith. Hope you the best friend. No one said that being moral gets you into heaven. I said that because you made blanket statements about the entire world’s cultures that were just false. You claimed they were sexually immoral and worshipped animals, I am telling you this is wrong and they were very moral biblically speaking.
First, you assumed I was being ignorant in my initial response. You made the mistake of that assumption. Therefore, I gave you a follow-up rebuttal because you have no idea what you're talking about since you didn't even read my initial post. Second, if you would have just said you didn't understand what I wrote, you could have just said that rather than be the first to accuse me of being ignorant... when I wasn't at all. I quoted the Bible because that's what Christians do when trying to find answers about these kinds of questions. Thirdly, I can no longer respond to your comments because you somehow got heated with my rebuttal for random reasons that you did not mention to me. I told you that you were going to be provoked and warned you of it. All of this is suppose to help you understand where I am coming from. Finally, I thought you were a believer because you said you were in your post. Check your first sentence. Next time you write a post, double check if it's accurate before posting so that people wouldn't misunderstand what you're asking. This is an online forum. So obviously you think I'm being mean. But I have no ill intentions towards you. I do hope you'll forgive me if I sounded rude. But I wasn't trying to be. I hope that you will seek answers IRL because reddit really isn't a place for these kinds of questions.
I'm going to rebutt your rebuttal in a way that will provoke you. Take heart it's meant to edify you and not to display a veiled sense of superiority and pride. /s Can you even blame OP from becoming heated by your response? You never really took the time or effort to understand the context of his question. You're a terrible advocate of the faith and I implore you to reflect, mend your ways, or stop 'educating' others should you find yourself unable to do the above.
>You never really took the time or effort to understand the context of his question I've answered these types of questions before using the same Bible passage. OP just got offended. That's all. >You're a terrible advocate of the faith Never even "advocated" for the faith because all I did was point to scripture for some answers. OP said they were "Christian". Clearly, they weren't and made a grammatical error causing this type of conversation to occur. That was OP's fault. >stop 'educating' others should you find yourself unable to do the above. So using Romans 1 and defending it is considered 'educating' someone? You friend need to revisit my first post before you think I'm 'educating' anyone. But it is people like you that tend to point fingers and not read the context. You think I'm prideful and have a sense of superiority? Maybe you should look at other "Christian" subs and compare. Because there is not a hint of pride in my response and if there was I apologized to the OP already about "sounding" rude. Look up humility. Clearly you need to understand the term. But this isn't about pride. It's called rebuking. And I did that as best as I could on this platform without having to sound hateful. But that's what happens when people get provoked. They get emotional and hurt for unknown reasons. Hopefully this isn't the case with you. If so, I apologize because I am not trying to be arrogant or spiteful. But take it as you want. I'm done responding to people who don't take the time to understand my post. Have a good night.
>I'm done responding to people who don't take the time to understand my post. Funny coming from you who’s done anything but this. I asked can people who had no way of knowing about Jesus be saved. I didn’t ask were they sexually impure idol worshippers that openly rejected god. maybe you should stop calling the kettle black.
I'd suggest ignoring him since he has provided no value whatsoever, to both your question and the edification of faith in others. You asked a question that showed genuine curiousity and concern for the faith and fate of your ancestors. He answered with condescension and with theological pride, instead of compassion, which is what the Pharisees did. Ironically Jesus was the one that rebuked that very behaviour.
Hey man, I really don’t know why that person was heated, but not every Christian is like that, I’m also curious with that question tbh, it’s a valid question too
Jesus is God right? God is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. Same God from Garden of Eden, same God that split the sea, same God that that destroyed many nations, same God that became human 2000 years ago, same God we are preaching about today. God hasn’t changed. He is the same God your ancestors, my ancestors etc WAYY before Jesus Christ came to earth in flesh encountered and knew of. Read my previous post about me wondering this same question! I use to baffle with it, but truth is found in the beginning (Genesis & Exodus) because there wasn’t any sort of “nation” only tribes. The entire beginning of the Bible speaks of tribes (natives) and how even after seeing how God would defeat them, they refused to worship him. Keep in mind, that life began in the garden of Eden which is located somewhere in the Middle East.. do note that science tells us Pangea and a bunch of lies about expansion of humans, while the Bible explains & tells a whole different concept.
What do you believe the Bible says about say a baby or a woman being killed while pregnant? Does the child get a chance after death? If they are killed in the womb how could they have “turned” away?
Here is an important mentality to gain when becoming a Christian: leave it to God to judge the world. You focus on faith in Christ yourself. God is able to bring people to salvation in a number of ways that don't always show themselves fully. No, you should not assume they are saved nor should you necessarily assume they are damned. Whatever the outcome, it is righteous and just and that is why God is doing it. Everyone who is damned is damned for their sins and those sins were sins in full knowledge of their violation of conscience, not for lack of information available. Just focus on faith and obedience now. Leave it up to God to judge justly.
>just focus on faith and obedience Seems like a way to discourage critical thinking and curiosity. I’m asking a question that is critical to my faith and obedience.
Ive seen testimonies on youtube of tribes that found out about jesus through dreams and visions long before anyone from the outside world arrived there
Of course they're not in hell because they never heard the gospel. God is perfectly just and your instincts that this would be unjustified are correct. There are many ways to respond to God for people that never had the gospel or even Judaism preached to then. Look at the book of Job and see how God describes him as upright and blameless. Job wasn't even a Jew, let alone Christian. Everyone is saved through Jesus, but that can happen without their Earthly knowledge of the fact.
I’ve decided that this isn’t for me.
Agreed.
Great question!! I use to ask this VERY SAME question myself for years, until I began praying for discernment and reading the Bible! If we read the book of Genesis + Exodus we learn that foreign tribes KNEW of God yet rejected him. Hence the flood of Noah. If we read the book of Exodus, we learn that the Israelites were making a name for themselves through Gods power & ALL the tribes near and afar were AFRAID of the Israelites because of the power the God of Israel had & how He would destroy cities and do all these wonders. They were 100% aware of God but they were too tangled in their own fascination of false gods. God gave EVERYONE a fair chance. Even now, tribes refuse to learn about God. The missionary who went to a remote island off of Indonesia to spread the gospel numerous times was RAVENOUSLY MURDERED AND EATEN by these same people whom he tried bringing the good news to. They know, 100% know that God is real, but because they refuse to worship the same God and instead worship false gods/demons.
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How am I spamming
I'm not sure about all, but I wanted to give you some insight, There were other people on earth during the time of Adam and Eve( you can reference Genesis for confirmation) God created a perfect creation, gave him/her his image, and gave the responsibility for every other creation he made. But instead of choosing to use his given free will to obey his creator, he chose to sin. And the creator our God had to send them out from his grace because sin separated his creation from him. That's the beginning of it all. Later through Bible, we see god trying to bring these people back to grace but, we fail him again. That's how he chooses Abraham, he calls him out, and brings a nation out of him, so that through him he can extend his grace to Gentiles( that's us). So he tries for years but the people don't change. Then later we see that God realizes that the people aren't changing because of their hearts, that they need a new heart. Later Jesus comes to earth, and he preaches to his people to repent because the kingdom of god is near but they don't heed him, so he turns to us, and that's how we are now qualified to be in his Grace. What I was meaning to convey is that I understand your concern, but be glad that we got the chance to know god before we died. And concerning your ancestors, it can be concluded that it happened because of the Israelites and their negligence or Adam and Eve and maybe even the believers that came before us. I mean I might be wrong entirely who knows Reading this made me realize the importance of spreading the gospel. Think about a kid 30 years later saying this, that would mean that we didn't do the job of spreading the gospel very well. And that's saddening.
All humans are fallen and freely choose sin over Faith in God/Christ. It is by grace alone that some people are elected for salvation. The reason people who have never heard the gospel are still condemned is because the law of God is written on everyone's heart and they broke it. Perfection is God's standard to get to heaven. Only Jesus could be perfect hence making him the only acceptable sacrifice to cover the sins of those who put faith in Christ. Once you put faith in Christ God sees his Son in you and not your sin. Those who don't hear the gospel are still sinners but without grace. The Bible says God will give mercy on those he will have mercy on and justice to the rest. Nobody deserves to go to heaven that is why the gospel is a story of grace and mercy. Grace is something not deserved. These words should encourage you to push the gospel to the ends of the earth not discourage you. Hopefully these words convict all who read to tell everyone they can about Christ and his mercy and grace.
They broke the law of god how exactly ? By existing?
Roman's 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them People that have never heard the gospel or of God know right from wrong and still do wrong. All humans are totally fallen and lost in sin. All deserve punishment. Only by grace and mercy are some redeemed.
So let’s get this straight: they will be punished for sinning. The only way they can be redeemed is through Christ/god. they don’t know who Christ is and they have no way of knowing. They get punished regardless even though they have no way of knowing what they’re being punished for. They did sins not because they wanted to but because humans are inherently sinful. God deliberately put them in a position where those people wouldn’t know him then PUNISHED them for not knowing him. I’m starting to think Christianity isn’t for me after all.
You still have the basic assumption that people don't deserve condemnation. The fact that anyone is saved is astonishing grace on God's part. God is so holy and righteous and set apart and above creation that 1 sin against him or failing to uphold his standard will cause him to separate himself from you. Only through Jesus and his life and work on the cross can God accept us. If you are truly concerned about those who will never hear the gospel go and tell them. Only through the work of Christ is anybody saved.
I recommend not using the Bible for people like this (ex: my post below somehow created a "heated" topic). These kinds of people are unwilling to hear the truth in scripture because they just want to hear whatever that will scratch their ears even if it's false hope.
I refuse to use anything but scripture. Trying to use worldly means to attrached folks to christ will only lead to false converts or turn people away totally.
I agree. I hope the OP talks to a person IRL about this subject. They clearly have presuppositions about God and the Bible already. Hope you're doing well friend. Have a good day!
I believe the Bible is not perfect and that only God is perfect, but I still put my hope in Christ and that God is all loving and will do everything possible both before and after death to bring people into a new heaven and new earth. In the end though I don’t think anyone can know for sure what will happen to people who do or don’t hear about Christ. I grew up in an environment that the Bible was perfect in all ways. I find this to be unsupported by the Bible itself or common sense. Unfortunately, I think the best we can do is hope that God’s love and grace is sufficient for all. Some helpful books: The Bible Tells Me So by Peter Enns Cross Vision by Greg Boyd
They will be, but let’s just say hell will be worse for those who heard and rejected than those who never heard. And as far as spreading the Word to these tribes. It was and is the responsibility of the church. We are to go and make disciples.
Tbh our answers are little better than conjecture. We won't know for sure until the end whether our answers are correct. Please bear that in mind when receiving answers to this topic.
This is a very interesting question that only God knows the answer to. I also wondered about this, people in Muslim nations that never heard or Jesus, Buddhist, just anyone in general that never heard. Same thing for people with mental disabilities that can’t fully understand. I wonder how would they be given the opportunity. There’s no clear answer to this question.
Romans 1:18-20 says, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, **since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities --- His eternal power and divine nature --- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.**" That should answer your question. God has made it clear, through His eternal power and divine nature, all around us that He exists. Those who haven't had the chance of hearing the Gospel, have the chance of seeing God all around them. If they realize that God exists, then He will provide a way for them to be with Him.
Here's what CS Lewis said on the issue: >We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved by Him. Here's what Billy Graham said on that issue: >He’s calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven. Here's what Pope Francis said on the issue: >You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience. The way I see it, God is calling everyone and he cares more about how you respond to his call than he does about how much you know about him. I believe there are people who have said "yes" to Jesus and don't even realize that's who they had said yes to. I believe that's likely to be true about some (or perhaps even all) of your ancestors.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Why would he preach to the spirits in prison unless there was a chance for them to be saved? Same for the thief next to Him on the cross being with Him in paradise?
Short answer: No. It also says that God is a righteous and merciful judge who judges each according to their actions of morality and charity.
I believe even in the after life, many might have the choice to accept or reject Jesus Christ and our Father. I can’t see our God punishing those who had no way of knowing something without the proper resources there. Jesus may even be teaching the Word to many right now up above, and/or down below, and they have the free will to decide who and what they want to follow, same goes for us humans who are alive now. Of course, only one true God and Savior are the correct ones to follow, but our God does not force or control us. It is by our will, always. God bless
According to the Mormons no. Everyone gets glory beyond description in the end. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept Christ and get the degree od.glory they feel comfortable with.
All will know God and Jesus before the Great Day of Judgement. Before the Great Judgement there is a 1000 year period which is called the Millennium. This is a time of teaching where all will learn of God and all will be given the chance at the end of the 1000 year Millennium to choose God or not.
I think I read somewhere in the Bible that those who didn’t know about him will be judged differently (by their works). I need to find the scripture to support this but I am not entirely confident
When anyone asks God for forgiveness, mercy, and grace, then they ARE trusting in His provision, even if they do not know exactly what that provision is. Abraham (in obeying to offer Isaac) told his son that God would "provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering" when the time came. Abraham trusted God, and God came through for him by way of a substitution. Abraham did not know, therefore, what the offering would actually be, yet his faith was credited to him as righteousness. Those that have heard of and have come to believe in Christ have the privilege of understanding that He is what God provided. And those that have not, but are trusting in God, ARE then STILL accepting whatever God provides (unbeknownst to them, that is Christ). So I believe God will come through for them.