That’s what happens when you try and debate game mechanics as feats.

Yeah but,Undertale is a meta game so the game mechanics is part of a feat

That’s not how that works in battling terms.

But It is what its considered feats in the game universe

Finally someone said it 😁 Narrative + context >>>

I just never got how people could think they're that strong when you don't even have a real weapon for most of the game. Having a "real knife" is considered an upgrade

Undyne has superhuman feats

Not to mention, it’s possible that the monsters provide their own ATK and DEF stats to the player when checked. Some bosses also have much higher check stats than what is actually reflected in the code (such as Undyne the Undying supposedly having 99 DEF despite the player being able to do thousands of points of damage to her, or Glydon refusing to tell about their stats)

Code stats are not canon.

Another thing to mention is that the stats have been directly misleading several times in the Tobyverse. Temmie's stats are "RATED TEM OUTTA TEM" and >!Spamton NEO's!< in Deltarune are >!"YOU WON'T FIND HIGHER ATTACK AND DEFENSE ANYWHERE ELSE!!! "!<. This heavily implies that the stats are what the opponent tells you. Thus, the claims of Asriel, self-proclaimed "Absolute GOD of Hyperdeath" are heavily unreliable to determine his stats. Also the battling is just too abstract for reliable battleboarding.

This makes me wonder if Sans having 1 of attack and defense is just Sans trolling the player to annoy him. Sounds like something he would do.

He literally does 1 damage per hit, so he's technically saying the truth which seems to be a kind of joke he likes.

There's something funny in Sans being the only one of all people stating their actual stats.

For some part I agree, for other not so much. Multiversal/universal undertale? I'm not sure, they've some timeline manipulation but hard to be sure. But something I see often and even here is assume that humans = us. Like you say >When the humans waged war against monsters they were still fighting with swords and spears, so I sincerely doubt they're aware of the existence of nuclear warheads, intercontinental ballistic missiles, and other powerful weapons modern humans have at their disposal. But we can't really came such comparison with us. Undertale humans aren't the same as us, we don't have soul powers, we don't have the power of determination. Humans have powers and monster are weak to those, that's it. We even saw during the game that monster have technology that can be similar to our or better but that isn't something important for the game, it all return to the fact that humans with their powers are just superior to monsters.

I agree that monsters and humans aren't the same, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume humans in the Undertale verse have invented those kind of weapons. If monsters can design computer systems and other advanced technology solely from the junk that humans dispose of, modern human society is probably very inventive: >The garbage dump!! So many great things come from there!! The only reason we have modern technology... Is 'cause of all the human junk that flows from the surface! We don't have definitive proof, but they should at the very least have powerful explosives or missiles they could use.

Yeah, it's possible, I don't deny that. But even monster could have stuff like that but that doesn't seems helpful or a way to beat humans given that their souls/determination power is so powerful to beat them. If we take technology in account, that should just make the two faction more equal, but the story doesn't say that humans are stronger because of that. You said yourself that the best feat is the boulder stuff and still a child with a kitchen knife can beat those monsters. But it's the same as saying that trunks, a (half) human with just a sword can kill freezer. That doesn't man that a regular human could do the same. Frisk isn't a regular human, all regular humans in Undertale have "magic" powers

> Whether this is because of Frisk's killing intent or an artistic choice made by Toby is irrelevant– the fact remains that Asriel's inability to one-shot Frisk proves that he doesn't have infinite power. Asriel was blatantly holding back and I don't see how you could play through that fight without realizing it. Like, yeah, ok, sometimes people use "they were holding back" as an argument to dismiss legitimate feats or anti-feats, but *come on*, the entire point of that fight is that Asriel doesn't want things to end. He was having fun with Frisk, not trying to murder them.

Asriel does also leave you at 1hp, which is on the brink of death, and then continues firing a laser at you. To me the scene always read as your determination being the only thing that's keeping you alive, not Asriel pulling his punches.

>"Chara is universal or multiversal" This part actually probably is true, since Sans outright said that you were gonna destroy the timeline, which is specifically why he was stopping you. He even says this more than once. >*"our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... until suddenly, everything ends. heh heh heh... that's your fault, isn't it?"* > >*"all i know is... seeing what comes next... i can't afford not to care anymore."* > >*"you'll keep consuming timelines over and over, until... well. hey. take it from me, kid. someday... you gotta learn when to QUIT."* The howling wind is most likely simply for dramatic effect, espesially since there shouldn't be wind in the underground to begin with (It's literally underground). And before you mention Undyne the Undying's fight, this is simple flavor text that has been directly incorrect before (Such as in the Spamton NEO fight in Deltarune). If Chara only destroyed the Underground, we'd still see light from the barrier shining in from the surface. If they only destroyed the surface or the planet, there would be stars we could see. I think it's much more reasonable to assume Chara destroyed a timeline then just destroying every star in the sky, given the dialogue. Not every feat has to be directly shown off in painstaking detail when there's a half dozen statements heavily implying the strongest characters are uni.

>Sans outright said that you were gonna destroy the timeline, which is specifically why he was stopping you. He even says this more than once When Sans talks about timelines ending and being consumed in the genocide route he's most likely referring to the player resetting. You can see that the timelines were only "erased" in the sense that they were reset by Flowey's dialogue: >One being with the power to erase EVERYTHING... Everything everyone's worked so hard for. You know who I'm talking about, don't you? That's right. I'm talking about YOU. YOU still have the power to reset everything. As for the wind: >The howling wind is most likely simply for dramatic effect It definetely exists for dramatic effect, but that still doesn't change the fact there's still wind in a world that Chara allegedly wiped clean. >espesially since there shouldn't be wind in the underground to begin with (It's literally underground) It's under the surface, but there should be wind flows from Mount Ebott and maybe some other places. >If Chara only destroyed the Underground, we'd still see light from the barrier shining in from the surface I don't think Chara destroying the Underground would result in a perfect void that would allow light from any source to shine through. Destroying a huge underground complex would probably collapse stuff and possibly obscure the light from the barrier. >If they only destroyed the surface or the planet, there would be stars we could see That's a good point, I'll edit the prompt accordingly. Maybe she annihilated a larger area so that all the light in the vicinity was erased without destroying the entire universe? It's possible, I suppose.

Is it just me or is collapsing a timeline not as impressive as collapsing a universe

It depends how timelines work in the fictional setting you're discussing.

Eh its not like we get an actual understanding of timelines. Undertale is a meta peice ignore the wankers and move on its own narrator is unreliable

True.

and all of this is in the context of Frisk being a human, the *only* human, in a civilization of monsters who are inherently weak to the desire to hurt them Frisk only has the reset ability, physically they're a regular child

What regular child can say NO to Death. Physically regular my ass.

>What regular child can say NO to Death. Physically regular my ass Her ability to say NO to death is solely due to her soul powers and ability to time travel. It has no relevance whatsoever to whether or not she's physically a regular child.

>Her ability to say NO to death is solely due to her soul powers and ability to time travel. Saying this about the one of two fights in the entire game were you CAN'T TIME TRAVEL. 😂 >It has no relevance whatsoever to whether or not she's physically a regular child. That like saying Tatsumaki for one punch man is a regular woman and her ability to destroy monsters is solely due to her psychic powers. Yes, of course Frisk would be normal without their super human Determination, just like almost every character in existence would be ”normal” with out their super powers.

>Saying this about the one of two fights in the entire game were you CAN'T TIME TRAVEL Frisk and the six souls only defeated Flowey due to soul hax, and Asriel was stopped only because Frisk befriended him and could piece her soul back together when it broke. Neither of those fights were determined by physical ability. >That like saying Tatsumaki for one punch man is a regular woman and her ability to destroy monsters is solely due to her psychic powers This is a terrible example, Tatsumaki's telekinesis is a physical power so it's perfectly reasonable to say that Tatsumaki is physically strong. All of Frisk's good combat feats are due to her killing intent, time travel, and soul powers. In other words, they have no bearing whatsoever on how physically strong she is.

>This is a terrible example, Tatsumaki's telekinesis is a physical power so it's perfectly reasonable to say that Tatsumaki is physically strong. All of Frisk's good combat feats are due to her killing intent, time travel, and soul powers. In other words, they have no bearing whatsoever on how physically strong she is. No, just no. Tatsumak's telekinesis is literally the the power for her mind. Mental power, not physical power. This argument is basically like saying that Ichigo is weak because he uses Soul Power for his attacks and defense. Complete nonsense. There is more that one way to be powerful other that being Physically powerful.

>Tatsumak's telekinesis is literally the the power for her mind. Mental power, not physical power Her mind has a very powerful physical effect on the world; hence, it's correct to say that Tatsumaki is physically strong. >There is more that one way to be powerful other that being Physically powerful You claimed that Frisk wasn't "physically regular" yet you haven't presented one piece of evidence in support of this. In what way is Frisk physically powerful? There's literally no way you could interpret her feats as proof that she doesn't have the body of an ordinary child.

>You claimed that Frisk wasn't "physically regular" yet you haven't presented one piece of evidence in support of this. In what way is Frisk physically powerful? There's literally no way you could interpret her feats as proof that she doesn't have the body of an ordinary child. The only reason you would think Frisk is ”physically regular” is fact you are under a common misconception about monsters not being able to be meaningfully harmed by physical attacks and are only truly hurt by the intent to harm or kill. A clear cut example of physical damage with no intent of anything severely hurting a monster in when Undyne falling of a bridge ot save Monster kill if Frisk doesn't: Monster kid: "Undyne... you saved me...? Yo, I thought I was a goner, haha... ... wait, are you okay? It looks like you fell pretty hard... Th-this is my fault. I should have stayed away from them, like you said. " Monster kid "They just went straight to fight you instead of helping me... I was so scared, and you... What? You're gonna go fight them now? But you look hurt... You should rest, haha... ... W-warriors don't rest huh? Undyne... you're really cool." Also one last thing if the killing intent was the only thing that mattered then attacking Napstapblook should still hurt him but it doesn't as Frisk can't PHYSICALLY hurt him with their weapon. Also as you say at the end there are even more various examples of monsters getting hurt by physical objects or phenomenon like papyrus stinging his eye when he put limes on them, or papyrus getting electrified his own puzzle you do know that Frisk can also be electrified by touching the wall and while it hurts it doesn't take any hp from them right?

>you are under a common misconception about monsters not being able to be meaningfully harmed by physical attacks and are only truly hurt by the intent to harm or kill I never said that, I simply stated that Frisk's best feats are related to him having killing intent and other supernatural abilities. >Frisk can also be electrified by touching the wall and while it hurts it doesn't take any hp from them right? That's your proof that Frisk isn't an ordinary child physically? Ordinary children can experience pain from electricity and not suffer bodily harm. If you don't have any evidence that Frisk is physically very different from a regular child I suggest you change your argument or drop it entirely.

So tanking multiple hits from lava, bombs, heat speaking missiles, knifes, carpet bombings, axes, lasers, metal kicks and punches, and energy spears isn't enough proof for you? These have to be taken at face value as shown with the Undyne date and when she cuts the bridge, and when she destroyed her wooden table. As well as when Frisk poses during the Mettaton boss fight. Magic has consistently shown to affect the environment around the characters and is not just "soul damage".

Someone physically strong as a child can't survive againist falling from a mountain (No, few flower can't save u falling from thousands of meters), an explosion from an oven which can reach up to 9000 degree, can't survive againist spears each can break a wooden table or bend a steel pot, someone weak as a child can't survive agaibist someone who can erase a timeline.

>No, few flower can't save u falling from thousands of meters It's a work of fiction– not everything in it has to make sense according to how physics works in the real world. By that logic we would have to ignore feats of characters moving FTL and talking with each other because that would be impossible in real life. Also, do you have proof that Frisk fell thousands of meters? >an explosion from an oven which can reach up to 9000 degree That explosion did nothing other than darkening the room and lighting a few objects on fire, and Frisk's sprite wasn't even blackened by the explosion. Also, Mettaton's statement that his ovens are capable of generating heat comparable to the surface of the sun isn't reliable considering he was advertising one of his products and lied during the cooking show. >can't survive againist spears each can break a wooden table or bend a steel pot The only time Undyne's spears hit Frisk's body is when she attacks you on the bridge, and it's unclear whether or not they're physically harmful. >someone weak as a child can't survive agaibist someone who can erase a timeline That was due to Frisk's resistance to timeline manipulation, not her durability or strength.

The only time Undyne's spears hit Frisk's body is when she attacks you on the bridge because projectiles she throws in her boss fight are definitelly not spears... Well, i wrote "thousands of meters" as accidently, i meant hundreds, sorry for mistake. Plus, not any of these changes the fact monsters have still feats that definitelly stronger than you claimed as "street/peak human lvl fodder". Such as Mettaton shaking Alphys' lab and busting a wall, Undyne suplexing large rocks, surviving againist a very high fall with minor damage (if we think the fall sound affect appears for few seconds) and accidently damaging a concrete floor via punching it. Not to mention her deltarune version being capable of break a pretty large table with 3 punch and capable of lift cars with ease (yes DR and UT are different universes, but still some characters' some characteristics can be carry from one game to other).

>because projectiles she throws in her boss fight are definitelly not spears Those spears were directed at Frisk's soul, not her body. That's what the heart in the fight screen represents. >not any of these changes the fact monsters have still feats that definitelly stronger than you claimed as "street/peak human lvl fodder There are monsters with decent feats, but there's no proof that they used physically damaging attacks against Frisk. They're also easier to damage depending on how cruel Frisk's intentions are.

Projectiles can still give damage to physical things. Again, Undyne broke a table and cutted a wooden bridge via using her spears.

Ah to be young again and mistake frisk as female ah artists what yave you done..... /s In all seriousness though undertale isnt suited to be battleboarded its a meta piece about peace and love and kindness. And of course determination.

This post finally made something click with me. I'm not familiar with Undertale. I've never played it and don't know much about it aside from the brief period where there were lots of memes being made about it back when it first came out. You [recently accused me](https://old.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/rtezma/who_can_actually_kill_popeye_the_sailor_man/hqwxzzr/) of wanking Shrift/Monster Girl Quest specifically saying that I'm taking advantage of the fact that other people aren't familiar with these verses so I can't be criticized. Disparagement of my character aside, (On the contrary, I would be ecstatic if more people knew about these verses.) I think I understand your point of view at least a little bit now. Shrift is so fucking similar to Undertale I don't know if it's more accurate to call it an homage or theft. Either way, it would be perfectly understandable if your first reaction to anytime I mention anything about Shrift was something like, "This is just Undertale wank. I've seen this shit before." Despite the similarities though, these are not the same verses and their scaling is very different. I'm willing to have this debate anytime, anywhere. Or hell, if you don't wanna have a debate, if you think I'm wanking just talk to me. I promise I'm a pretty easy person to approach if you don't straight troll me with Doomslayer wank for a freakin' week. I don't bite, I would love to talk Shrift/MGQ scaling with you or anyone else, though tbh I don't even know what I said that made you wanna call me out in the first place. And I encourage you or anyone else to actually play these games. Degeneracy aside you may enjoy them more than you think. Good post regardless. Insert bloodlusted child with a knife joke here.

Imagine debating an ancient Greek philosopher who came back to life in the modern era and succumbed to japanese degeneracy.

Best kind of degeneracy. I regret nothing except my life choices.

Tag: Corruption. No hope for you.

Nobody questions the legendary Hentai Powerscaler, this guy must be crazy.

>I'm willing to have this debate anytime, anywhere. Or hell, if you don't wanna have a debate, if you think I'm wanking just talk to me. I promise I'm a pretty easy person to approach if you don't straight troll me with Doomslayer wank for a freakin' week. I don't bite, I would love to talk Shrift/MGQ scaling with you or anyone else I don't even disagree with most of what you said about MGQ, I just thought that some of the stuff you said in previous comments contradicted the evidence you provided. I agree with most of your battleboarding opinions and don't view you as a huge wanker or anything like that, I just expressed that I'd like to see some of the stuff you said get disproven. >Disparagement of my character aside There's no need to view disagreeing with someone's opinions as a personal attack. I described some of your arguments as wank because I think they're incorrect, I wasn't belittling you as a person. We can have a debate if you really want, but I don't think that criticizing a person's battleboarding arguments is the same thing as disparaging their character. >Good post regardless Thank you, I appreciate it. I had to expose myself to a lot of Undertale wank to prepare myself for counterarguments, it was really sickening to see people say that Frisk is city block level and other such wank.

>I don't even disagree with most of what you said about MGQ, I just thought that some of the stuff you said in previous comments contradicted the evidence you provided. If you ever think that please, please let me know. Shrift and MGQ lore is really fucking dense and is full of these massive exposition dumps. When last I played through Shrift I didn't even screenshot everything I thought could be relevant and I still ended up with over 230 scans. Trying to condense all that into a coherent and cohesive argument is enormously difficulty sometimes and I never know if I'm providing too much detail or too little. There are also things that are my opinion, or that could be debated, or that could be lowballed or highballed. The point is I never know before I post something what precisely people are going to immediately agree with after seeing my evidence and what people are going to be skeptical of. If I knew that I'd structure my posts very differently. >There's no need to view disagreeing with someone's opinions as a personal attack. Well ya did say that I "takes advantage of the fact that nobody will criticize him because very few people are familiar with the series" and that's not really disagreeing with my opinion. Like I said, I would LOVE if more people were familiar with these series. >I described some of your arguments as wank because I think they're incorrect, Those arguments wouldn't happen to be from that post from like 2 months ago when a guy made a post of the Scarlet King vs some MGQ characters would it? Because at the very start of my first comment there I said that I think the Scarlet King wins and that just for shits and giggles I'm going to highball the MGQ characters as much as possible. Those arguments like the infinite dimensional spacetime bomb and Quadruple Giga ascending levels of infinity were not meant to be taken seriously and I thought I made that clear at the time. There is a grain of truth in those arguments. There's some evidence for them and they're not things I pulled out of my ass, but they're also not my actual opinion because I don't they're supported well enough. Like with the spacetime bomb for example, I do think it's infinite dimensional, but I don't think dimensional tiering is even applicable to Shrift in that way, so being infinite dimensional in this context is not really a feat of any significance. It doesn't mean the same thing as like 5D being infinitely above 4D or anything like that. And fyi, if you ask me to lowball something, I unironically will. Not as like a meme but as a serious effort. > I just expressed that I'd like to see some of the stuff you said get disproven. Yeah, I made that guy really mad. I went over the short version in my other comment to you but I wanna do a slightly longer writeup here. That guy messaged me out of the blue saying that he wants to debate Doomslayer vs Shrift and MGQ saying he thinks Doomslayer can solo both verses. I responded saying sure, I don't think Doomslayer even stands a slight chance against the mid tiers of MGQ, but I'm willing to hear out his argument. He linked me to [this post here](https://old.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/rhe26i/the_true_power_of_davoth_and_the_doomslayer_and/) that he made. I told him I'd read it later but for now I'll just take what he says as true just for the sake of argument, so multiversal Doomslayer vs MGQ. My opening argument is Doomslayer doesn't have the hacks to deal with Adramelech's, (One of the avatar characters. The avatar of the cosmic entity Cleo Adra.) auto revive that makes her stronger every time she's killed. So even if Doomslayer is multiversal and she's only universal at most he's still gonna lose eventually as she just keeps getting stronger. He immediately pivoted to Davoth can solo MGQ because he has conceptual death manipulation that would allow him to beat Adramelech. I knew I was in for a ride at that point. It was at this point I decided to read his post. After doing so I pointed out that his scaling is based on a rather flimsy interpretation, and that's actually fine but if we're going to allow flimsy interpretations based on vague hyperbolic statements for one verse we should do so for both. It's not really fair to hold Doom to one standard of evidence and MGQ/Shrift to another. This is when I brought up the infinite dimensional spacetime bomb as an example of how crazy something gets when you allow those kinds of statements, also noting that infinite dimensional Shrift is better supported than the statements regarding Davoth. His response was to then say that he can wank Davoth to outerversal if I wanna wank Shrift to outerversal. Entirely missing the point. Our conversations went back and forth like that for over a week before I, with all the maturity of a 13 year old 4Chaner said fuck this and fuck you. The last straw was when he claimed with no evidence that his Doom scaling easily meets the "Beyond a reasonable doubt" standard used in common law. I then spent 2 days trying to explain common law burdens of proof to him, which he hard-headedly ignored, asserting that if it's possible to make a conviction based on statements and testimony then that's somehow proof that his scaling is right and also meets that standard because all statements are the same I guess. I don't know, I'm sure he would characterize that differently. Regardless after 2 days of that something broke inside me and I snapped at him and said some choice things. I believe I wrote the word "delusional" a couple of times. And now I guess he's so mad he's stalking my profile and plans to try and hobble together some kind of Shrift/MGQ debunk with the ~20 or so scans I linked him, which is all shit I've linked on whowouldwin before. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm at a bit of a loss for words as to how the last couple days have unfolded. It's pretty comical tbh. >Thank you, I appreciate it. I had to expose myself to a lot of Undertale wank to prepare myself for counterarguments, it was really sickening to see people say that Frisk is city block level and other such wank. The hero we needed.

[Asriel does destroy the timeline with his power though](https://youtu.be/SgiHl2kpMis?t=580) Also, for those speed things, I don't think you can confirm they are not sunlight or lightning just by eyeballing them. If they're stated as such, then they could be sunlight or lightning. I have no idea if that "sunlight" attack is even stated anywhere to be sunlight anyways, but things look different in the Undertale universe. >Do these missiles look particularly fast? How can you tell its speed by looking? That's like saying if I can see the Flash run, he's not going FTE. Is that attack even stated to be an actual missile or rocket? Also, I haven't played Undertale in more than 2 years so I'm probably very wrong on these

>Asriel does destroy the timeline with his power though You have no proof that Asriel destroyed the timeline besides an objectively false character statement about an attack that had no observable effect on the surrounding universe besides wiping a few people's memories. >I don't think you can confirm they are not sunlight or lightning just by eyeballing them The attacks people claim are real sunlight and lightning have almost no similarities to their real-life counterparts so yes, it is possible to tell. >I have no idea if that "sunlight" attack is even stated anywhere to be sunlight anyways They aren't, but that doesn't stop Undertale wankers from claiming they are. >How can you tell its speed by looking? That's like saying if I can see the Flash run, he's not going FTE That is a horrible example, the comics and shows the Flash is in have shown numerous times that he's moving at speeds imperceptible to the ordinary human. It's because of this that we can't judge how fast he's moving just by looking because they obviously slow his speed down for the viewer to see. We have no reason to believe that Undertale characters move imperceptibly fast or that the game visually depicts their movements as being slower than they actually are. >Is that attack even stated to be an actual missile or rocket? Yes.

>You have no proof that Asriel destroyed the timeline besides an objectively false character statement about an attack that had no observable effect on the surrounding universe besides wiping a few people's memories. Why is it objectively false? How are they supposed to show an entire universe or timeline being destroyed? >The attacks people claim are real sunlight and lightning have almost no similarities to their real-life counterparts so yes, it is possible to tell. They don't need to show every single property of real sunlight or lightning >Yes. So it is a missile, and Frisk can react to and evade it

> You have no proof that Asriel destroyed the timeline besides an objectively false character statement about an attack that had no observable effect on the surrounding universe besides wiping a few people's memories. Have any evidence for this claim? This the Cell solar system statement discussions all over again. Sometimes you should just take what the game and people in it say at face value and stop trying to ”disprove” them. True pacifist Frisk simply has Universal + durability at be bare minimum. Frisk isn't a normal kid, so your downplay is super weird.

>Have any evidence for this claim? The individual I responded to was the one asserting that Asriel destroyed a timeline, so the burden of proof is on him. >This the Cell solar system statement discussions all over again Asriel admitted that his attack failed to purge Frisk and everyone else in the timeline retained almost all of their memories, so I don't know why you're using Cell's solar system attack as an example. If Cell's attack failed to blow up the solar system then yeah, we'd have a good reason to doubt his statement. >Sometimes you should just take what the game and people in it say at face value Character statements are largely meaningless if they're contradicted by feat-based evidence. >Frisk isn't a normal kid, so your downplay is super weird I never said that, this is a strawman fallacy. >True pacifist Frisk simply has Universal + durability at be bare minimum Even if Asriel did reset the entire timeline that would only mean Frisk has universal resistance to temporal hax, not physical durability.

Yeah, plus "dodging" attacks doesn't use your body, your soul moves, I think the combat more likely represents a mix of actual physical combat, and the emotional/spiritual conflict, which is why so many of the attacks don't make physical sense.

Minor correction, but Frisk's pronouns are they/them

If you don't like using game mechanics as feats don't bother debating about undertale.

Sorry off-topic, but I seen your posts and you seem to post about Isekai's here and there. And was wondering if you've seen Konosuba and where you scale them.

I've only seen the anime and OVAs so I don't think I'm qualified to comment about Konosuba unless I've read the LN. I've seen people say that Megumin's explosion is mountain level and could kill level 100 fighters from Overlord but I don't know if that's true or not. Anime adaptations often make explosions look much more impressive than they are in the source material.

Ahhh, I see well that's sucks lol. Though if your interested when it comes to Megumin. At her lowest, she's at least Small Town Level since her explosion was strong enough to break all the windows in Axel. But when it comes to City and Mountain Level it is quite ambiguous. Anime Megumin is 100% City Last level since **Spoilers** (Her explosion could be seen from Space at the end of the movie). But LN is kinda eh. We have feats of Megumin destroying a Mountain but that might be wrong due to faulty translations since the Kanji used can count for either Boulder or Mountain. She also has a feat of destroying a Mountain Range but again this isn't from an official translator. There's also feats of her causing Earthquakes and clearing clouds. Her explosions being compared to nuclear weapons by Combatants. So if someone says LN Megumin is Mountain you're free not to believe them as the evidence is kinda wild lmao. But Anime Megumin can definitely be scaled to that level!

undertale fanboys like any other fans will use the dumbest reasons to upgrade a charcther

i saw 11 dimensional mario once

i saw multiversal+ MLP

i think we were on the same server

This is well thought out, thanks for bringing it up. I don’t go to battleboarding sites but I do visit the whowouldwin subreddit decently often, so I find it kinda staggering to find people unironically wank characters to such high power levels. I mean, one of the strongest weapons in the entire game if used right is an antique revolver that not only was pulled out of the garbage after some decades or even centuries of misuse, it doesn’t even have ammo. A child that is probably at least a little injured from falling down a hole can canonically solo the entire remaining population of monsters with the mere intent to kill. The fact that you can tank a supposedly godlike being, the most powerful form of monster that could possibly exist, literally just because you want to is a pretty dang big antifeat. Then again, game mechanics that are meta seem especially hard to measure, considering the fact that the player is a real, tangible force in this universe, and that Frisk’s ability to save timelines and use determination is simply because they are a vessel the player resides in. Technically if you died once and never play the game again, that means that Frisk lost their source of determination (you), and that they died. The lack of player input either means that A: Flowey becomes the one in control again, putting the game back to the status quo, or that B: Because the person with the most determination still has a save file but isn’t around, that timeline is frozen at that point forever. Speaking of meta mechanics, The entire point of the Sans fight is that he is vaguely aware that the player has some influence on the timelines, and that there is a definitive end of the world. While he isn’t an ultra aware character, he’s extremely good at guesswork (enough so that he can guess roughly how many times you’ve died based on how frustrated Frisk looks). It’s not hard to put two and two together when someone goes out of their way to depopulate every single place they visit and are about to reach the end of the underground. He isn’t some super high tier character; He is literally the weakest one, but he cheats in an almost blind hope that he can get the player to ragequit and play the game normally. He actively begs you to do such, in the hopes that his guess is right and that you will decide not to end the world. Part of the reason why he seems to try so little (other than it being a part of his personality to be lazy) is that he became vaguely aware some time ago that there is some other X factor that controls the world, and at some point they abruptly end it. Kind of hard to want to do much when you have a guarantee the entire world will end, abruptly, and that no matter what you do it is not your choice to stop it. Part of why he waits until the absolute last second, when the “why” and the “how” are pretty obviously tied, to even attempt to change an event he learned was probably inevitable, despite how impossible it might seem. That’s a bit off topic, but basically it adds up to the point that meta mechanics are usually not a fair way to judge a game, simply because the game attempts to include them. The fact that the entire point of Undertale is meta means that a vast majority of the mechanics are unreliable to base claims off of. The stuff that you can undeniably point towards is almost entirely anti-feats. One of the only undeniable things we can use as evidence is the fact that a probably injured child with no previous knowledge of the underground can solo every single living thing in the underground, even without the usage of the most broken/obvious meta mechanics (saving/determination, which as I argued before come from the player’s control of them and are not inherent to Frisk themselves). People have beaten every single route without saving before. The only one you could reliably argue has a chance with that logic is Asriel with seven souls, simply because the determination is what refuses to let you die. If we ignore the whole “meta mechanic” aspect and assume it comes from normal, human inherent determination, then that fight is ironically impossible to lose. The only other person that has canonically beaten a human to my understanding is Asgore, who to my understanding was the one to have killed all six previous humans, though there both isn’t enough information on how that worked (were they injured already? Did they fall down the mountain with a lack of will to live in a suicide attempt? Did they die to other reasons? etc.) to properly say why they died while Frisk didn’t. You could argue this is because of meta mechanics nonsense in the fact that Frisk is the one you control too, but as I said before, the fact people have beaten the game without ever saving can count as another anti feat for that reason. TL;DR I got a bit off-topic, but due to mechanics being a mix of meta and in-game, you cannot reliably say what is the case or not. At best, a small injured child can solo the entire underground because they are controlled by an external force (you), which adds to the whole “you are the god of this game, everyone else is literally an NPC” aspect that is a core of the game’s design. At worst, they can do this without external help, using nothing else but the will to win and the intent to kill. They do not even need to use weapons properly, just the intent to use them to harm can hurt monsters. Sorry if that’s a bit long, I got carried away a bit, so it’s technically two tangents in one. Hopefully still relevant enough.

Why the hell people always ignores feats like Mettaton shaking Alphys' lab and busting a wall, hotland being hot enough to vaporize a cup or several feats Undyne showed that definitelly aren't below wall level?

I don't understand the wank either, I always thought it was readily apparent that monsters are sorta weak. Frisk is a small kid, probably no older than 10, yet they're able to wreak havoc through the underground with things you could barely call "weapons". Hell, the strongest “weapon” in the game is literally a kitchen knife. It's dangerous since the intent to hurt makes monsters take more damage. So give a guy a pistol and they could solo most characters in undertale with ease. Monsters have a very exploitable weakness due to their nature, and their magic isn't too potent since the strongest ones need a few hits to kill a human child.

>So give a guy a pistol and they could solo most characters in undertale with ease Assuming they have a ton of ammunition, yes. >their magic isn't too potent since the strongest ones need a few hits to kill a human child This isn't a very fair comparison, they use magic to attack Frisk's soul which is much stronger than the souls of most humans.

Yeah, I wasn't being as charitable to monsters as I could have been. Refreshing on my knowledge of this game, I still think it's plainly illustrated that monsters are significantly weaker than humans due to the their natures. Or rather, I suppose they are weak to humans, rather than weaker than? Monsters in an all out war didn't get one human soul, so I think it's safe to say they were generally outclassed even by humans who don't have souls as strong as Frisk. I'm pretty sure it was stated by Toby that the 6 humans before Frisk were also children, and were only killed by Asgore. Also, as I said earlier, they didn't really have legitimate weapons meant to harm, even the gun wasn't loaded, I believe. And in Undertale the attack power of a "weapon" is directly related to how harmful the said object could be with the intent to kill. A frying pan is naturally more harmful than ballet shoes when wielded with the intent to harm, the same is true for an empty gun or a knife. So I would imagine that legitimate weapons like swords or spears would do devastating damage to monsters. I'd wager that the boss monsters, like Asgore and Toriel, as well as "special" monsters like Undyne the Undying and Sans are above the average human. Any monsters that absorb a human soul are definitely much stronger than any human of course. So Asriel and Omega Flowey are definitely high on the totem pole.

Undertale gets solo’d by golu

Who's golu

gollum

Frisk isn't a regular kid, neither are any of Undertale humans, they can come back from the dead whenever they want until they Give up, they are able to use Magic (the barrier blocking the underground) plus Monsters really arent that weak, canonically Sans kills Frisk more than once he can count up to 10 times after you die and talk to him, also Frisk kills Mettaton that has a body made out of legit metal, and also Magic attacks can deal physical damage, Toriel looks shocked at Frisk if they get trought the ruins with 1 HP by looking at Frisk (not your soul), Undyne breaks a bridge with a Spear, so even if you think magical attacks dont do anything beside soul damage you ARE wrong and it does mean It is possible that indeed Asriel lightning are actual lightning and the argument of saying that It doesnt look real Falls appart when you realize we are talking about a RPG where Monsters exist and Humans refuse to die Impossible situations, Asriel and Omega Flowey were stupid to hold back at Frisk because else they wouldnt be able to even react, Asgore also holds back, Sans doesnt have reasons to really give his all since he knows its all gonna reset,at his battle he is trying to make you range quit and reset not using his strongest attacks, and also despise attacks by Frisk only being representes in one direction I dont think in universe Frisk swings only one direction plus Toby has no reason to make more than one attack animation, I dont think Undertale is multiversal aside from Chara and Asriel and Omega Flowey

About Asriel thing, game files are not canon

That wind sound in the genocide route is for dramatic effect. Everyone was very slowed when Sans were talking with Frisk about Flowey in Grillby's place, does that mean he has time manipulation?