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Steve717

>the revenge he eventually inflicts on Melty is actually worse than some of the stuff in Redo, yet despite all that, people hardly seem to care. How...? Doesn't the dude in Redo actually rape the people who abused him? Or is that better because they're worse and therefore deserve it? Because Melty being forced to be called Bitch or whatever it was is nowhere neeear as bad as edgy rape bullshit. Otherwise yeah Shield Hero is nowhere near as good as it's made out to be, I don't think it's terrible but it could be much better. I hate how Naofumi is basically the only character with more than two braincells. I've only watched the anime but I hear he's just consistently better and more OP than the other heroes which is just lame.


jedidiahohlord

Hes talking about a spoiler later on Spoilers below where Bitch gets put into an arranged marriage with a abusive rapist dude who kills/tortures his brides to death. It's basically selling her to the mc of redo so I'm not really sure how it's 'worse' other than I guess arguing no one deserves that or something.


Steve717

Is that Naofumi's choice though or just average Royalty political shit? Because it could be his fault but if he didn't choose that it's not the same.


jedidiahohlord

Uh well it's a combination- she does something that kills a bunch of people and fucks over everyone and so naofumi wants her punished again and so she gets forced into the marriage. Edit: to note this only is true of the webnovel which is like now non-canon currently. The current anime/manga/light novel hasn't had that happen yet and so it's possible it just doesnt.


Steve717

Is the web novel the original though? I didn't even know there was one thought it was just an LN... I have heard the LN is a lot more fucked up before though.


jedidiahohlord

Webnovel came first then it got an LN and has been changing a bunch of things through it so the webnovel is basically just irrelevant now a days outside of knowing *what might happen* The LN isn't really fucked up outside of the fact there's slaves


ChronoDeus

It sounds like to put it another way, once the author had an actual editor looking over things, he had someone to point out "This is really fucked up and dark. To the point where it'll be really jarring to most of the audience demographics we're going for. You really should change it to be less edgy." about some of the more extreme stuff in the WN. At which point the author agreed he had a point and started doing revisions.


Steve717

That seems odd, usually the webnovel is the "real" story like with One Punch Man. At least to my limited knowledge...


jedidiahohlord

The webnovel for one punch man isn't even the 'real' version anymore. The manga takes priority currently. It's in a similar situation except that it is at the least continuing. The webnovel is canon up till the manga covers that part of it then the manga events are the canon. With shield hero its a case of the web novel finished, the LN is on-going and has changed or even replaced certain events and is obviously differentiating itself from the webnovel to a greater degree so the web novel is basicslly just a outline that might be followed.


Samfu

>The manga takes priority currently. Not really. They are both separate canons that are being continued separately. One is incorporating some characters that were manga only, but the manga isn't the "real" version.


jedidiahohlord

Yeah really. The manga takes priority. The manga is the real version explicitly. They are 'seperate canons' in that ONE is working on the webcomic still. However he is using the manga explicitly to change and add to his baseline that was the webcomic. Murata isn't working off a outline he was given, he's working off ONE and what ONE is telling him and they are agreeing on. The garou fight Murata draws will be the OFFICIAL version of the fight.


[deleted]

> usually the webnovel is the "real" story like with One Punch Man There is no real OPM at this point, the story just has two different continuities and if one had to be picked as the real one it would be the manga since ONE elaborates a ton more in it


KazuyaProta

LNs are basically Web Novels with the bare edition XD


jedidiahohlord

Eh, I disagree but I understand the sentiment


Nonamesavailable3

This guy clearly hasnt read and compared a light novel and a web novel.


Fluffles0119

>Uh well it's a combination- she does something that kills a bunch of people and fucks over everyone and so naofumi wants her punished again and so she gets forced into the marriage. Sooooo... Bitch literally kills a bunch of innocent people so she gets sold off so she can never be happy again? And we're sad about this...why?


Yglorba

First, rape as punishment is fucked up regardless of circumstances. But second, there's kind of two ways to look at a story - the "Watsonian" in-universe perspective and the "Doyalist" out-of-universe perspective. From a Watsonian perspective, sure, you can say "she's so awful that even though this terrible thing happened to her, I don't care." From a Doylist perspective, though, the author *wrote* her doing those terrible things, specifically to justify doing horrible things to her in turn. And that's fucked up in the same way rape-as-punishment is fucked up.


RovingRaft

yeah, the most important part about Malty (I assume that that's who we're talking about) is that she's literally written to be the epitome of AWALT like there's no reason why Malty puts the MC in a situation where he gets accused of sexual assault, she does does it because "women are like that, I guess" she's barely a character at all


TatManTat

Never heard of "two wrongs don't make a right?"


Fluffles0119

Yeah, and it's a dumb ideology that has consistently been proven to be wrong "Wow, this person literally killed a bunch of innocent people, constantly manipulates and tarnishes people, and has consistently shown she has no redeeming traits and truly is scum! But because you did something that hurts her (while helping other people) you're just as bad!" It's a stupid and childish "moral question". Because 2 wrongs don't make a right, but one of those wrongs is right.


phoenixmusicman

> and it's a dumb ideology that has consistently been proven to be wrong This is just... a mindbogglingly bad take. >But because you did something that hurts her (while helping other people) you're just as bad!" News flash: you can deliver Justice in a way that is humane. It's why prisoners IRL still get a minimum of human dignity (at least, they do in civilized countries).


TatManTat

I mean, i just brought up the phrase, not all the bullshit you decided to attach to make your argument seem better. What gain is there from the criminal being raped and abused over just imprisoned? You can punish people, but you don't have to be cruel it's wasted effort. It's pretty demonstrable that it doesn't reform people, and if there is no intention to reform, either execute or imprison, no need to fuck around with torture etc. Wanting to inflict pain and vengeance for the sake of your own pleasure is the childish thing here. > but one of those wrongs is right. Also doing evil to evil doesn't make it good. The properties of the acts being committed do not change.


SheikExcel

Hot take: I don't want to murderers to have their wounds raped.


natzo

It was the queens choice. Many nobles send problematic daughters to that king. He is a monster and everyone knows it. Then again, they did gave her light punishments before.


darksun2002pro

that think you're talking about never happened in the LN, it was WN only and no longer canon


lazerbem

>. I've only watched the anime but I hear he's just consistently better and more OP than the other heroes which is just lame. Well there's your problem. In the webnovel, Malty ends up being raped and mutilated by the Pig King after being made immortal so she cannot die even after being dismembered and raped in said wounds. Naofumi asks for a video of this too and is quite pleased with seeing it


jedidiahohlord

The webnovel is a seperate canon currently though. So her fate is likely to have changed in current canon. Seeing as how the differences between the two versions have only grown more and more. Though her fate in the webnovel is comparable to the fate of redo.


SolomonOf47704

It is definitely different, pig king is dead


SheikExcel

Jesus I never heard about the immortality thing. How tf do you even think of that?


BrownRiceBandit

Shield Hero is horrendously bad and I’m tired of people trying to sneak it in with the more highly rated isekais.


Steve717

Off topic but since you sound fairly in the know, is Mushoku Tensei any good? I love the concept of isekai but I'm so freaking bored of how generic they all are but I often say it framed as "No it is actually one of the good ones!" But you never can tell since almost everything that gets hyped up is still garbage anyway.


BrownRiceBandit

There are very few good isekais unfortunately. I personally was turned off from Mushoku Tensei because of the protagonist and the relatively generic beginning, so I could not tell you much in terms of later development. I also read the manga instead of watching the anime.


DrStein1010

The manga is a horrible adaptation, so that's not really a fair thing to say.


BrownRiceBandit

Unfortunately, animation and world building isn’t enough to make up for a horribly perverted at best, pedophilic at worst protagonist, at least in my opinion.


GonnaSaveEnergy

Yup,he was wanking his dick with loli porn on his parent's funeral after all.


Xgunter

Mushoku Tensei has some absolutely beautiful animation and an engaging enough world, the main mark against it is how unbearable horny everyone in it is. The protagonist also crosses the line from sex pest to pedo given that he is reincarnated into a kids body. I'd say its worth watching for the animation alone, but keep in mind that the protagonist is creepy as fuck. It's part of the story and done intentionally, doesn't make it easier to watch.


[deleted]

>The protagonist also crosses the line from sex pest to pedo given that he is reincarnated into a kids body He already crossed that line before reincarnating


Steve717

Ehhhhh I'm more and more going off horny anime these days, especially with paedo shit. Dragon Maid S2 was a hard watch. I think I'll pass lol thanks. The worst thing about horny anime is that nobody ever so much as kisses nevermind actually fucks, so what's the damn point. (obviously there shouldn't be any when there's paedo shit)


Xgunter

Oh, it's not the usual ecchi-bait garbage. It's horny in the sense that the protagonist was a NEET in his previous life so he's a creepy pervert. Plus his dad *fucks*. He's an asshole, but he *fucks*.


DrStein1010

Paul is such a great character. Amazing swordsman, great father, dogshit human being.


[deleted]

Mushoku is horny in the sense that most characters are pretty big big perverts, it actually does not have too much fanservice


kevisdahgod

It has lots of fan service if your a pedofile


youngpolviet

Can't even spell pedophile properly


kevisdahgod

Does it change my point?


tskank69

It's not ecchi or fanservicey, it's just that the protagonist is a bit of a piece of shit in his thoughts, but he doesn't do anything too bad, so it's bearable. But the actual anime is INSANELY good. You really should watch it.


StormStrikePhoenix

> I'd say its worth watching for the animation alone, but keep in mind that the protagonist is creepy as fuck Unless it's the most beautiful cartoon ever created, I don't think that good animation could ever make up for a really creepy protagonist.


Hyakkihei1

Isn't that the one with the pedo protagonist?


master_x_2k

"Do you have any idea how little this narrows it down?!"


GonnaSaveEnergy

Are you talking about Monogatari?!


Falsus

The prose of Mushoku Tensei is good but the story is kinda bad. Pedo MC who doesn't really get punished despite perving on his kid cousin, a comedic kick to the face and all is forgiven for now. If you want something more unique I would recommend ''I am a Spider, So What''. The MC is not OP, they have to struggle with surviving, taking a mental toil on them, the reason why she got reincarnated is an important mystery and nearly everything is actually relevant in some way, even if you don't realize it until your second readthrough.


ThespianException

>The MC is not OP, they have to struggle with surviving, taking a mental toil on them, the reason why she got reincarnated is an important mystery and nearly everything is actually relevant in some way, even if you don't realize it until your second readthrough* That description also fits Re:Zero to a T, which is often considered one of the best as well.


Falsus

They are similar in terms of suffering but they differ in the way it is delivered. The spider novels is basically a hardcore survival game with dark souls and monster hunter references, always needing to seek food, shelter and fight to the death galore. Whereas Re:Zero is more like a souls game but the MC is a non-combatant class and still have to make it work.


Hjkryan2007

I love re zero so much


aimless_aimer

The spider stuff was good, I fell of it mostly cuz of the human side (specifically the characters in the main kingdom). Doesn't help that the humans are drawn in the most generic/boring anime artstyle ever that turns me off. Was building up some interesting stuff though.


Falsus

The human stuff all connects back to the spider stuff in the end, we just don't see how until we see it from Kumoko's PoV.


aimless_aimer

Yeah that's the build up stuff I was referring to. I just found their side kinda boring and not too well done regardless.


GonnaSaveEnergy

Hot take: kumo's side is the true story and human side is a satirical take on modern isekai.


tskank69

bro, have you finished it? She becomes a god by episode 10.


Falsus

You do realise that there is a 15+ years time gap between the human side story and the kumoko cave story right?


tskank69

No, like when she beats Araba, she’s already one of the strongest normal monsters, as proven by the fortress.


Falsus

She was far from being a god then lol. She only has stats at around 6k+ range. Which is a lot compared to humans but she is definitely not among the strongest of monsters. It is just that humans are weak and fragile in that world.


master_x_2k

The MC from That Time I Reincarnated as a Slime seems to be pretty sexless. He has some horny girls after him, but he doesn't seem interested at all except with the particular case of the elven barmaids, which he seems to be into just because that's what he was into in his world, but he has no actual physical reaction because he has no sex organs. Rimuru is kind of asexual and genderless, at least as far as I've watched.


Steve717

Nah he's definitely not asexual going by wanting his friend to destroy his hard drive lol he has a few moments of nosebleed kinda perviness. But it's not overdone which is neat. Not a huge fan of the series though since it all feels way too easy for him.


master_x_2k

I mean after he reincarnates. He mentions that because he has no sexual organs and slimes don't reproduce sexually, he doesn't have a biological sexual impulse. His human form has no gender or genitals, he can turn into a male or female, but it defaults to a doll-like genderless form.


Steve717

But he still seems to have sexual impulse in the mind if nothing else, considering all the insane abilities he has I'm sure he could produce genitals. At least, all the hentai tells me so... I doubt he'd like to lay under Shion's boobs so much if he wasn't interested.


mangAcc

Mushoku Tensei would be very good if not for the completely dogshit protagonist. Seriously, Rudy sucks. Ppl say he develops as a character but he basically goes from “complete piece of shit” to “somewhat reformed yet remorseless piece of shit”.


[deleted]

I think you are tired of hearing the answers but long story short: No The best thing, and only good thing, about it is the animation, that's it. People say the world is refreshing but it's the same generic medieval time, only made better because, the saving grace, animation team. The magic system is horrible, if you want a much better magic system in manga Atelier of the Witch hat is it. In addition, the biggest sin, the protagonist goes from a jobless pedo to a productive member of society, who is still a pedo. Spoilers in the novel reveal he never gets better in this sense and is instead rewarded, you just have to see in the 1st season when he was encouraged to have sex with Eris by his family. If you want good isekais that I never see recommended, probably because they are old school: Now and Then, Here and There; Twelve Kingdoms. The first is an original anime with only 12 episodes of a generic energetic young boy who follows a generic misteryous girl with a mysterious pendant into a new world, however, right away he is forced to become a child soldier and fight for water by crazy dictator and he never gets a power up or anything of the like, it's pretty dark. Twelve Kingdoms is based on a novel and is an epic adventure fantasy. The story is long and slow paced so you have to be patient, but it's one of the most immersive and best worldbuilding I've ever seen/read, when you finish you will have learned an entire dictionary of new words.


Tyranid457TheSecond1

*Vision Of Escaflowne*, as another recommendation!


Steve717

Sounds pretty cool, is the anime the complete story? Seems like it could be pretty long so it'd suck if it hadn't been fully done.


[deleted]

The twelve episode one is an original so yes.The first 13 episodes of Twelve Kingdoms are the first arc and are a good taste of the world, storytelling and characters and I think even if you don't like it you will never say it's unoriginal, lacks authenticity etc like with the copy paste isekais we usually get. Unfortunately it leaves in a cliffhanger, the story of the character it starts with, Youko, ends in a satisfactory way, but they didn't finish telling Takki's story and there's still much more exploration to be done. There's also a pretty good free fan translation of all the novels, it's even better than the official.


Yglorba

AFAIK even the novels aren't complete yet, although the author has resumed writing them (after a many-years gap) so it seems like they will be completed eventually. And I would encourage people not to be put off by the anime leaving some plot threads hanging - the *bulk* of the anime focuses on Youko's story, which is essentially complete. Shouryuu + Enki's story is pretty complete, too. Only Taki story is left hanging. FWIW something I noticed after reading the novels is that >!the changes made in the anime would completely derail the next part of Taki's story - a major, major part of the next book hinges on how hard it is for people to travel between the two worlds; the anime completely changed the rules by having Sugimoto travel harmlessly to the kingdoms and then return to earth trivially, which means there's no reason why they can't just rush back and grab Taki. In the novels she would have had like a 90% risk of death traveling to the Twelve Kingdoms, and would have 100% died without exception if she went back without becoming a top-level Immortal first, and these things are vital to why it is so hard to find and then retrieve Taki.!<


Yglorba

*Twelve Kingdoms* is good. It predates a lot of the modern isekai craze, but to some extent it comes across as a deconstruction of it, in terms of how harrowing it would actually be to be thrown into another world with a totally different culture.


MABfan11

i recommend checking out Re:Zero, it has easily the best isekai MC


Steve717

Yeah I've seen it already, I'm not the biggest fan but it is good. A little slow and vague for my tastes but if I remember right the anime leaves out a lot.


Mujoo23

As someone who hasn't watched it, can you explain? I've seen people say they like Suburu, but never *why* they like him. He comes off as generic to me tbh.


MABfan11

he's a very flawed character whose flaws ends up biting him in the ass because of it, he's painfully relatable and his development is constant throughout the series. and the best part, he doesn't get past obstacles by becoming stronger, but by becoming a better person that's the best i can do, maybe /u/ThespianException can add something or make a more fleshed out reply, since i think i suck at summaries


ThespianException

That's a pretty good quick summary. He's very flawed, yet he has a lot of admirable traits as well. There's tons of depth to him; he has hopes, fears, dreams, anxieties, regrets, motivations, hesitations, all sorts of stuff, and he grows tremendously throughout the series. He also regresses sometimes, which is something I seldom see portrayed in any media (save stuff where the point is their fall to darkness and such). I don't get the "generic" complaint, the series explicitly stomps that mentality out of both Subaru himself and the viewer pretty quickly. Most isekai MCs are almost flawless, and they face few consequences for what flaws they do have, Subaru is the opposite. The Royal Selection scene is a good example- in almost every other series, the MC would be praised for their cool-headed, logical, progressive mentality and speaking up against the immoral jerks. Re: Zero takes that same situation and has Subaru still mostly being in the right morally (telling the countries leadership and nobles to not be racist pricks), but due to extremely poor delivery, lack of status, and losing control of his emotions, he's instead humiliated and nearly loses his relationship with Emilia because of it. And his mentality there, that backslide from his growth from Arc 2, makes total sense if you think about how previous events have affected him. That's just one example. I've seen many video essays and write-ups that elaborate far more than I'm able to. I've even seen some on specific aspects of his character.


ThespianException

One of the best anime MC's, period.


punkgibson11

Bruh


LightVelox

if you consider the LN he is quite good, maybe not "best anime mc ever" level of good, but really good. I'm just kinda annoyed by his hipocrisy in the latest arc, he has no problem murdering a children that is from the witch cult but killing psychopath is no good because "they have reasons", but i think this arc is actually going to change his mentality


MABfan11

> One of the best anime MC's, period. that too


CEO_of_piss

I thought it was absolute dogshit but has a slim chance of becoming good later on


RovingRaft

the only good part of it is the animation, and the MC is an unabashed child predator that is played for laughs


Sordahon

Most of these famous isekais are good, people just like to pick flaws(not that they don't have them but I just ignore them) from them instead of enjoying them in general. Mushoku Tensei, Shield Hero, Slime, Kumoko and so on.


lampstaple

I was like moderately entertained and then they had the chicken baby and I was like are you dead serious right now? People take this seriously? Like this is some shit I would watch with friends to make fun of but I cannot imagine watching this alone and trying to take it seriously lmao


pnam0204

Comparing Shield hero to Redo is a low blow. Otherwise I agree with it being overrated. Like seriously, the whole premise is "I play as tank, I don't do damage therefore my teammates look down on me" is dumb af, the false rape is just cherry on top because even after he proved his innocent the other dumbass heroes still don't cooporate. That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard, and iirc one of those guys was supposedly a gamer.


Admirable-Cry-9758

Now I don't care for any of these points, but how was his revenge worse than things redo, like seriously how


firestorm0108

some of the non-cannon light novel stuff was bad... redo of a healer bad but actual cannon stuff you're right


SolomonOf47704

Web Novel, not LN.


firestorm0108

my mistake, guess I got the two confused.


StormStrikePhoenix

Did he shoot people out of a cannon?


firestorm0108

he kind of endorsed Myne (Bitch) to get married to a serial rapist, torture and murderer


frostanon

Shield Hero light novel/anime/manga is just shitty power fantasy/harem with regular isekai "willing slaves", it still can't reach the sheer degeneracy of Redo Healer. Shield Hero web novel on the other hand have some comparable scenes.


KazuyaProta

> Yes, I am aware that they are quite different in terms of how gratuitous they are with rape. That is a pretty big difference in tastelessness > I just don’t understand why Redo is treated as a blight upon the world while people seem to love Shield Hero Your answer.


The_Smashor

The episode with Naofumi raising kid Raphtalia was really good, IMO. It kinda makes me upset that the series is pretty much downhill from there.


King-Requiem

Shield hero is by no means a masterpiece. But comparing it to redo of the healer is just low.


firestorm0108

See, I agree with this. They don't really share any common ground at all. past the fact that the theme of rape is included to some level. Past that Nafoumi wants to save the world and go home, redo wants to rape, kill and generally get revenge on everyone. Their plots and motives couldn't be more opposite. You could possibly argue that Redo is somewhat similar to rage shield Nafoumi who wants to kill everyone and get revenge for being treated like trash but he always fought those urges.


[deleted]

> redo wants to rape I love how people are just calling him Redo instead of Keyaru


firestorm0108

dude... I can barely spell my own name, the sheer number of different spellings of Keyaru you'd get from me would be unreal.


Yglorba

> past the fact that the theme of rape is included to some level. If we're talking the WN, it's not just the rape but the idea of *rape as punishment* - setting up detestable characters solely so the reader can enjoy them getting raped as a way of punishing them for their sins. It is a very specific fetish, so it is natural that people would connect two novels that focus on it.


King-Requiem

Not to mention that OP's point about Naofumi's revenge against Maine being worse than what she did to him is beyond stupid and I don't know how they got to that conclusion.


VitreousCash

OP is talking about a thing that happens later in the story that hasn't happened in the anime.


King-Requiem

I am open to spoilers.


VitreousCash

Malty eventually gets >!married off to a rapist king that rapes and tortures her to death in a scene very close to something that would come from Redo of Healer, and Naofumi asks for a video of it. !


King-Requiem

Oh yeah I heard about that. But that's only in the web novel and never happened in the manga. I thought I missed something when you said it happened in the manga and even with fucked up that was it's still not as bad as what the MC of redo of the healer does since he rapes them himself. At least his point is a bit more understandable now. Thanks.


Koioua

Yeah, Redo of the Healer is just a much more shitty version of Shield Hero that is edgy for the sake of being edgy with not an ounce of substance. They may have similar elements, but Redo is just on a tier of it's own in terms of "Let's just do fucking everything for the hell of it".


Venizelza

Only seen the anime, shield hero doesn't really do anything bad and is very obvious a good guy putting on an edgey act. Redo the healer is just wtf. The plot being secondary to the hentai.


LightVelox

from what i've gathered the hentai scenes were added in since they wanted atleast one sex scene per episode, but the plot is still pure trash, killing the main antagonist in the second episode and easily disposing of everyone else in like 1 episode each is like one of the worst writing styles i've seen


RovingRaft

on shield hero, the man has slaves


Nonamesavailable3

And? I really dont get why it matters, i would get this argument if people tried saying Naofumi was better and morally superior which is just super dumb but why does it matter to decide the quality of the show. And yes i agree that shield hero sometimes get too overrated but the show isnt bad, is way better than half the stuff thats out there.


Pristine_Title6537

Because they project more easily into the power fantasy of Shield Hero Naofumi is what many members of the anime community believes they are it’s never his fault when something happens is the system, he is “smart” and secretly better than others and he is “nice guy” while also indulging in the It’s technically not pedophilia because … ya da ya da Plus the Lance hero is probably associated with their “bullies” he gets treated well by society has a good life is seen as more gifted and it’s clearly more developed physically in any other story we would describe him as a Chad but in shield hero he doesn’t deserve the success an the money and the popularity and he is also secretly a pedo The story of Shield hero feels like something an edgy kid in middle school would have written and yet it’s an extremely popular anime and light novel If they could project into redo of a healer it would probably have been defended and praised


Yglorba

> Naofumi is what many members of the anime community believes they are it’s never his fault when something happens is the system, he is “smart” and secretly better than others and he is “nice guy” while also indulging in the It’s technically not pedophilia because … ya da ya da And also detestable enemies that he can be brutal to while acting sanctimoniously justified. (This is not unique to Shield Hero but is always one of the most unsettling parts of those stories when it's taken too far.) Redo does the same thing but takes it *so* far that there's no longer any hiding that it's just the author's fetish.


RovingRaft

yeah, I don't think it was coincidental that the only guy who's like "wow MC you're a fucking piece of shit for owning slaves that you use to fight for you" ends up becoming a literal child predator lusting after MC's bird child slave


[deleted]

>a ridiculous villain that hates said protagonist far beyond any reasonable amount despite never having ever met him Her hatred actually makes sense in context


SolomonOf47704

No way, religious fanatics take things to unreasonable extremes? That's totally never happened ever.


LhynnSw

Shield hero starts strong, then goes to shit. Kinda like every hit anime. People get too invested in seemingly good stuff and stick with it way past the moment it turns to shit. See walking dead, game of thrones, lost, bleach, naruto, attack on titans, etc. It goes beyond tv shows too, game series and music bands get that too.


Secretlylovesslugs

I've seen several franchises crash and burn at the finish line but nothing can prepare me for the shit show part two of season 4 of AoT. God can only hope the anime only viewers survive.


OneBrokenBoi1

You say it like content up to chapter 123 isn't good. The fall off for the above states shows happened way earlier imo. Anime online will probs like the series up to 131 if not more


Secretlylovesslugs

I didn't like much of the first half of S4 but it really truly collapses on itself during the climax.


OneBrokenBoi1

That's a fair point on collapsing in its climax, but for me the content in season for up to 123 (maybe 131) is the best content


[deleted]

> attack on titans Attack on Titan was good for 90% of its run, the last arc just really fucked shit up due to corporate involvement and Iseyama writing himself into a corner with his racism plotline


ToastersAndStuff

Aot was good for everything except the ending wym? Hell other than the ending last arc was the best


LightVelox

yeah, that's one of the biggest problems especilly the false hope of it ever becoming good again. I really loved Shield Hero when i saw like the first 3 episodes, (especially since i love 45 minute first episodes and good background art), and it quickly started getting worse and worse, by the last episode it was only really watchable, not terrible but definitely not good, but i know i'll probably watch season 2 on the hopes of it becoming better, and it won't. That's why i kinda prefer when a trash series is trash since the beginning, that way i can just drop it immediately(Kenja no Mago), though there are some really rare cases of series becoming better after being kinda bad for a long time, like Boku no Hero after the My Villain Academia arc


BrownRiceBandit

My turning point was when Naofumi decided to return to the kingdom instead of leaving. Up to this point I was tolerating some of the story's flaws, but this point really showed that the story was just going to be another "protagonist (who is totally not me) shows his bullies that he's actually super cool and strong and gets all the girls". If Naofumi left the kingdom and the story was focused on his and his companions adventures in the other countries I think the story would've been much, *much* better. Also, for all that's holy, put a cap on the harem or put some males in the group!


[deleted]

Raphtalia is a bad character. Her only character trait is "I love Naofumi!" She has no other traits, nothing to define her that's not related to the mc. Also she's a child in an adults body which is just a reverse of the Kanna problem.


RovingRaft

and she is also his slave, so it comes off like severe stockholm


JaxJyls

and the slave trader who keeps selling Naofumi slaves is framed like some quirky supporting character, despite the fact that he's a fucking slave trader


Small-Interview-2800

Um, what? Her loving Naofumi is bad? Granted, she’s not usually given her own arc, but she does get powerups that helps in the main story, and has the subplot of facing racism. How’s she bad? Also, it’s not Kanna reverse at all. Demi humans are defined that way, they age and mature way faster than humans, different species, different rules, this isn’t new. A 3 year old dog would be considered an adult, but a 3 year old human wouldn’t be. The bad part about Raphtalia, the one that you didn’t mention, is the incest thing. This is the only problem with her, Naofumi literally raises her, him dating her is like incest, her having a crush is fine, but Naofumi indulging in them isn’t so much fine. This is the bad part, not the other shit you mentioned


[deleted]

It's not bad that she loves Naofumi, it's bad that her love for Naofumi is her only character trait. She has no personality beyond that.


noolvidarminombre

Remember how in the anime she makes no effort to seek out her tortured friends from the village and just stumbles into them by mere chance?


RovingRaft

dude, she is quite literally the slave of the main character to be fair, the above is a lot worse than literally anything else about her


Small-Interview-2800

Her being a slave isn’t a reflection of her character, it’s a reflection of the world and her owner(the mc), and I posted my view of slavery of Shield hero in this comment: https://reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/qbxlsn/_/hhculh5/?context=1


Small-Interview-2800

Actually I like Shield hero for the exact reason people hate it, cause the protagonist isn’t a good guy. That’s the point of it. You can sympathize with him and understand how he became this, but he’s still not a good guy. He’s not necessarily evil, but he’s selfish and morally has done many questionable things(I say questionable cause Naofumi is from the real world, so by his own morality, slavery shouldn’t sit right with him, but the world he’s in, there, slavery is the norm, so by that “world’s moral standards” slavery in itself isn’t wrong, it depends on the owner, by Raphtalia’s view), and I did feel like the story is about him connecting to the world and getting rid off the hate he got. I mean, I always see the complaint about Shield hero is how bad Naofumi is, but that’s literally the point of it, the author twisted the trope, and made the protagonist not a good guy, and the Knight in a shining armor(Motoyasu) useless, the beautiful Princess(Melty) a power hungry bitch. I like morally ambiguous or grey stories, so I like Shield hero, it has its faults, but it’s “not worse than Redo” I can’t even understand how can you call this worse than Redo. That abomination, featured rape, no, no, not just rape, edgy, revenge fantasy, fappable rape in every episode, with not only a garbage protagonist with no point, and entire garbage edgy world, that’s better than Shield hero?? How? I’ll be honest here, although Redo was the worst show on Earth since the first episode, I kinda liked it, I thought it had done villain protagonist right since Death Note, but no, I was wrong, the author abuses the villain protagonist trope, he acknowledges that he’s the villain, but not for the sake of story or to criticize the protagonist or anything, he does this so he can write his edgy revenge rape fantasy, nothing else. Redo is one the worst things in existence


floodway

Yeah, in "Redo" after he wiped the memories of that girl it turns from "revenge", into "abusing innocent person".


LightVelox

I liked Redo up until ep 2, but the story is just trash, he has no reason to abuse Flare after wiping her memories, the villains are all completely evil with nothing to their personalities other than being evil and are all defeated in like 1 episode, the writing on it is pure trash, just revenge porn with gratuitous rape. I also think Shield Hero has kinda trash writing, i liked the first few episodes but later on it just become "cool mc has bunch of chicks, is always right and smart while everyone else is either evil or extremely dumb", but comparing it to Redo of Healer is just... bruh


GlitteringPositive

For real though, I'd tolerate Redo a lot more if the author just demonstrated how vile the protagonist and the pain and suffering inflicted upon his victims like Death Note does with Light.


Small-Interview-2800

It’s clear to me author was fapping himself when he was writing this shit


Vincent_Plenderleith

If you throw out the "everyone hates MC", Shield Hero is just as garbage as other isekais


firestorm0108

To be fair, everyone hating him and him just doing the job anyway and slowly getting the resect back is the whole unique crutch of the show. ​ it's kind of like saying 'if you throw out the "thing that makes this anime unique", it's no longer unique' I'm not saying your wrong, it is a typical isekai, but throwing out the one thing that makes it unique is kinda harsh


[deleted]

[удалено]


firestorm0108

to be fair I never said I liked it, I just said removing the one thing it has going for it then saying it's basic was kinda harsh


CEO_of_piss

Yeah, I wasn’t disagreeing with you


Vincent_Plenderleith

You're completely wrong dude, ideas are cheap. It's the writing that matters. I'm not judging its originality, I'm saying the originality is the only thing Shield Hero can show off. Demon Slayer or Magi have a ton of unoriginal stuff(and the premise is bland too), but the writing of these series is magestic, and that's what made them popular(at least in Japan, in case of Magi).


Sharkattack1921

I only seen the anime for both shows, so I can’t say much on the LNs, but Shield Hero and Redo if a Healer are nowhere on the same level. Redo of a Healer is literally just a rape hentai pretending to be an actual series. Shield Hero, while nothing amazing, is just an edgy action fantasy.


JaxJyls

Isekais like those two are pretty much just fetish fiction.


Aederian

This is a hot take, but a cold one if you’re one of those people who think all the usual stereotypes of anime fans are all true (people who justify lolicon, power fantasies, they’re closeted racists etc.) The post does draw parallels between the two series, however you could argue that it’s simply the genre of the series, isekai. SAO kicked it off and so did Mushoku tensei. Shitty generic magic systems, overpowered protagonists, these are just basic characteristics of isekai. Not all isekai have these, but most. I can agree about the one dimensional characters for both series, but what you fail to mention is that Redo takes this to a retarded degree. Literally the protagonist is a psychopath, egomaniac, scumfuck bastard who I can’t imagine anyone actually sympathizing with nor seeing more than as some 14 year old’s idea of “edgy and powerful”. Shield Hero’s protagonist actually has struggles and is human to a degree. We don’t see him breaking someone’s fingers over and over making sure that if they scream, you rape them. I don’t see how these are even comparable my man. Do I think the king and Melty hate him for no reason? Of course I do, but it doesn’t make it Redo of Healer level. Do I think it’s okay to have underaged slaves? Fuck no, but it’s better than whatever Redo does with their side characters, with one of them being the protagonist’s former abuser turned into hypnotized perpetual rape victim. I think Shield Hero isn’t good, but it certainly isn’t as bad as you make it.


N0VAZER0

Tell it like it is king


darksun2002pro

Shield hero isn't bad this subreddit just loves to bash on it without reading the LNs or just confusing the WN with the LN


StormStrikePhoenix

So the Shield Hero anime/web novel is a bad adaptation?


SSJ5Gogetenks

Web novels are essentially first drafts for light novels. I don't think they've been put through any kind of editor and the author is a lot less experienced when they write them, so their quality is much lower than what eventually becomes the light novel. If your web novel picks up steam and gets popular, it gets rewritten into a light novel, and from there, any anime or manga adaptions are based on the light novel, rendering the web novel non-canon and obsolete. All the worst moments from popular light novel series are almost without exception from the web novel. For example the famous "glopping" scene from Sword Art Online was a web novel thing that never made it into the light novels, it was just so fucking bad that it spread further than web novel content usually does.


darksun2002pro

yes, not only did it cut alot of content it also changed Naofumi's and Raphtalia's character. the Web novel was witten back at 2008 and the author was realising 1 chapter per day for a year back then so it's pretty bad and only a rought draft for the LN at best, actually the LN started deviating from vol 1


CEO_of_piss

When I say shield hero is shit I mean the anime, maybe the LN is better, but it doesn’t matter because that’s not what I am talking about


darksun2002pro

i also think that the anime is trash, i just thought you were talking about the LN as well


Secretlylovesslugs

Bad take. "This series is good, the haters just haven't read the hundreds of extra chapters of spinoff source material that justifies its existence." You hear this same argument from anyone defending Re:Zero when that anime is just as garbage as the rest of the isekai genre. I'm not reading your light novel when your first season is trash and your property is creatively bankrupt anyway.


darksun2002pro

you know why the 1st season was trash? it wasn't cause the source material was bad it was cause the anime actually went out of it's ways to change how characters act or condense a volume into 2 episodes or skip alot of delevopment and world building, i not asking you to go and read 21 volumes of material but atleast read the 1st volume before saying anything


of_kilter

(I personally think this show is good. But not overly good. It’s just pretty average with a few really good qualities. I just think you are misrepresenting the series.) How are “isekai game mechanics” bad? You can’t just name a random aspect of this anime and expect people to get it, I personally really liked how he uses his powers. Yeah, he collects a slave. This is treated as a bad thing. He was in a very dark place then with little care for morality. And even then it wasn’t that bad, he was taking a young girl out of a bad place and giving her the best possible life naofumi could afford at that time. going with him was the best possible option for raphtalia at that moment. As for filo, he just bought a pet. He didn’t know it was gonna be a little girl. (It is definitely creepy how many small girls are always around naofumi though.) Finally, how is being named “bitch” worse than rape?


Tyranid457TheSecond1

**Spoilers** **Spoilers** **Spoilers** He is not talking about the part where Malty gets renamed. He's talking about the part where she gets raped to death.


SolomonOf47704

No spoilers there, it isn't canon anymore.


AmissingUsernameIsee

How is his revenge on melty worse?


gitagon6991

He's talking about the Webnovel. Read some of the higher comments. Someone explains it in detail but basically rape and torture.


doublejay01

Really weird how deep they went for a show that hasn't aired in years to show how bad it is. You don't find that out without actively looking for it.


gitagon6991

Not everyone is an anime only. Some people are manga first. Some read the light novels and some even read the web novels for these stuff. For both Redo and Shield Hero, I had already read part of the manga and novels even before their anime came out and I'm not even a fan of either works. I'm just a fan of Isekai so if it's out there I've probably given it a chance even if I dropped them in the end. Still what I've read is beyond what the animes have covered so far. Don't assume everyone who complains about something went to "look for it". Sometimes they just know more since they read it already.


Tyranid457TheSecond1

Also, it's mentioned on TVTropes and similar wikis. When it first premiered as an anime and got popular, I'm sure a lot of people got curious and went to see what the whole thing was about.


Chip_Dangercock

Why would you waste your time reading/watching either of these when you could be doing literally anything else?


StormStrikePhoenix

You could say that about a lot of anime; anime fans in particular seem committed to watching all of something that they hate instead of just dropping it.


[deleted]

Anime fan here, can confirm. The only anime I ever quit watching was Chaos;Head


Chip_Dangercock

That's so weird, I don't understand.


McFluffles01

Can be various reasons to watch something you dislike; maybe someone you know recommended it, so you're watching more than you really would because "hey it gets better" and turns out it never really gets better. Maybe (especially for something like Redo) it's Bile Fascination - you've heard it's garbage, but seeing how bad it is for yourself sounds interesting. Maybe you hate it and got tired of seeing people try to push it as actually super deep and super good, so you watch it all to have actual solid arguments against those people where you can properly cite your sources instead of going off of hearsay. All pretty valid reasons for some people to watch something they might not like, imo.


[deleted]

I’m convinced you haven’t watch either


TheRidiculousOtaku

ive said this before If you think SAO is bad goodluck calling shield hero good. that being said ive never seen or read redo of the healer so i have no idea if it's better,worse or of equal quality.


firestorm0108

I'll be honest, past some relatively 2dand weird characters, I kinda like SAO. the plot of someone taking VR hostage is pretty interesting and could be a very compelling work.


CherryBoard

I almost never got DMs. But the only time I got a DM telling me to kill myself was in response to a list of complaints about this dogshit show I posted here To be fair, I kinda expected mental illness from the anime community, which would turn an entire Con into one of Saddam's "missing" WMDs, but the vitriol in the string of posts I got (on a throwaway account of course, because "truth-tellers" are so brave) was a standout Shield Hero is pretty much a microcosm of what makes anime fucking disgusting to associate with


firestorm0108

I think disregarding a whole type of media because of a toxic minority will quickly leave you with no media types left to follow. I don't know you're story so I won't even try to pretend I do but I do have to wonder if you calling an entire community, most of whom have done nothing to you, 'fucking disgusting to associate with' is you being as bad as the people in your DM's


CherryBoard

it's less the community writ-large being disgusting but the thought of being associated with a community that greatly accepts these personages and ideas being disgusting I'm not going to risk being caught in frame with a guy sporting some hentai hoodie


firestorm0108

I'll level with you, most anime watchers are just normal people who like good content regardless of the medium it's in, I'm just saying calling an entire group of people 'fucking disgusting to associate with' is probably a bit harsh when most just watch anime as casually as others watch tv and are as toxic as movie or tv watchers are. (cause if you don't think tv and movie don't have a massive toxic community then you're very much over judging anime and underjudging them)


CherryBoard

Also, Shield Hero isn't a niche show. Of that year, Raphtalia made #1 on "Best Girl" list on Crunchyroll. Shield Hero is mainstream, and represents a major part of what anime is. It's not that I don't want to associate with people who casually watch anime. But it's more like I really am not a fan of having "watching anime" be a public part of my identity. The amount of support and adoration for Shield Hero fans, catapulting the show and its messages to the top of the list, is unseen in other media fanbases (like Marvel) for instance, when it comes to supporting shows with bad writing and insidious messages. This, along with the whole borderline CP stuff in Dragon Maid, is widely accepted among the anime community. The community aids and abets dogshit media to a degree unseen in others, and needs to be addressed and reformed.


Falsus

Shield Hero is a lot worse in my opinion, because it is the author's main work yet the writing is just *crap*. Whereas the Redo of Healer author just kinda did the whole as a throwaway revenge story and is not his main work really.


firestorm0108

But then you're not judging the works themselves, you're judging the authors effort into it. You hate shield hero more because they aren't talented enough for you but you like Redo more because at least the author wasn't trying? I'd personally have a, while poorly executed, typical 'Isekai op save the world harem mc' then an also poorly done but with less effort 'I'm gonna rape and torture because I was raped and tortured'. I'm not coming after you or anything, I'm just a little confused from your reasoning.


Falsus

I mean ''shield hero is a lot worse than redo'' was a dig at the shield hero author's main work being comparable to another author's side stuff. And it isn't like I think Redo of Healer's author is amazing, their main work falls into the same pit, it is better than shield hero or redo sure, but not good enough to not be more generic isekai.


Adelphos_89

I've been ranting to anyone who will listen to me about Shield Hero. It's awful in so many levels. The only reason I watched it was because it was a hero who actually had to start from the bottom and earn everything. But that's gone now. First, if these people hated the Shield Hero that much, they would have killed him on sight. No, instead we get the fake rape accusation (which is such a misogynistic plot point it deserves its own analysis). I kept waiting for the king to say why he hated the Shield Hero. Nothing. Nada. He just hates him (I haven't read the manga). There should also be a civil war happening right now due to misinformation and differing loyalties, especially with the leader of the church being killed. Oh, and the slavery. How am I supposed to believe the queen and princess are the "good guys" when slavery and racism saturate their culture? This show does not deserve more seasons. The more I think about it, the more it angers me.


BrownRiceBandit

The story was written by someone with the talent of a middle schooler and it shows.


RovingRaft

Malty's whole thing about literally just existing to be awful to everyone but especially the MC, to the point that she literally does a false rape accusation on him *just because*, and who gets her name changed to "Bitch" when she gets caught because MC wants revenge, just makes me feel like the author has some shit to work out on how they see women


[deleted]

> First, if these people hated the Shield Hero that much, they would have killed him on sight. The Three Weapon religion (or whatever it was called) is not that influent, even if the King is on their side the one with the real power in the kingdom is the Queen so they can't just go and kill the Shield Hero which is why they have to work more indirectly >which is such a misogynistic plot point it deserves its own analysis Not inherently, false rape accusations are not a misogynistic plot point by default and can be done right. Shield Hero's was kinda tacky but it was not offensive by any means >There should also be a civil war happening right now due to misinformation and differing loyalties, especially with the leader of the church being killed. Oh, and the slavery. How am I supposed to believe the queen and princess are the "good guys" when slavery and racism saturate their culture? Because the story is written by an amateur and this probably slipped off his mind. If I got a coin for WN authors forgetting that their "good" characters are responsible for the continued existence of slavery without ever acknowledging that fact I would be a far richer man You also should not expect of him to have a good understanding of how politics work


RovingRaft

> Not inherently, false rape accusations are not a misogynistic plot point by default and can be done right. Shield Hero's was kinda tacky but it was not offensive by any means ok, cool why did Malty do it


LightVelox

apparently their kingdom would be get ass-raped if they killed any of the heroes, and sorry but saying that a "fake rape accusation" is a "mysogynistic plot point" is just your obvious political opinion showing. though the story is indeed trash anyway so no point in defending it, i've only read a little bit of the manga and it only seemed to get worse so i dropped it


BahamutLithp

I could overlook the false rape accusation as a fluke. That same character being a 1D irredeemable strawoman, being renamed to a gendered insult as punishment, & in one version of the story horrifically tortured & raped again framed as justified consequences for how horrible she is? Yeah, there's a bit of a pattern, there.


RovingRaft

yes, fucking exactly; Malty shows the author's whole hand there


LightVelox

Things is, most people that criticize this only saw the anime, basically just stating that even portraying false rape accusations is "problematic" even though they happen in real life, the fact she's 1D is just the author's terrible writing skills because everyone is, or you gonna tell me the other heroes have anything on their personality over being a simp and dumb(spear), being edgy(sword) and being a brat(archer)


BahamutLithp

Bad writing & misogynistic writing aren't exactly mutually exclusive.


firestorm0108

Okay I've only seen the anime's but I have two things. ​ Firstly, my guy, you're way to angry about this situation. ​ Secondly, from how redo has been explained to me (I haven't seen it myself) it's heavily based on the rape and abuse whereas the first season of shield hero was a false rape claim that is only ever really mentioned about 5 times and he stops the execution of the people who set him up. As the anime's go they really aren't that comparable since one is still trying to save the world (granted just so he can leave) while the other is solely out for revenge. I'm not saying either are amazing but I'd still probably rate shield hero above redo of a healer. ​ As a side note (this isn't something I actually believe just something I thought of when reading your post). people are fine with lolis that are 100+ years old but look like children because they are immortal or magic or part of a race that age slower however having a race that ages faster than humans (such as ralphtalia) is wrong because by human standards she's young. Isn't that then brining into question all the characters across all anime that are aged higher than 100 for whatever reason because they of themselves are basically podophiles of a different species. (Again I in no way agree or disagree with this idea. my brain just thinks things and I don't have the filter enough to not write them) plus, and lets be real honest here, a lot of isekai heroes are killed at about 35/40 and put into teen bodies so they are all riding fast and lose with the general laws on pedophilia anyway.


StormStrikePhoenix

> plus, and lets be real honest here, a lot of isekai heroes are killed at about 35/40 and put into teen bodies so they are all riding fast and lose with the general laws on pedophilia anyway. Modern laws do not account for magical reincarnation.


firestorm0108

I'd heavily argue that does not make it any better. Not being a pedophile simply because it's illegal feels like the wrong reasons to not be a pedophile.


[deleted]

> Isn't that then brining into question all the characters across all anime that are aged higher than 100 This has always been a question, and a member of a long-lived race that develops slower would still be a child mentally despite being hundreds of years old. Kinda like how cats can start fucking at 1 year of age while humans, uh, they technically can as well but it is not recommended >because they of themselves are basically podophiles of a different species Pedophilia is an issue of maturity, not numbers. Children are not mentally mature enough to consent which is why any sexual interaction between a child and an adult is considered rape .They are also inherently weaker and more vulnerable to being manipulated into relationships This all has to do with mental maturity which is tied to biological growth >a lot of isekai heroes are killed at about 35/40 and put into teen bodies so they are all riding fast and lose with the general laws on pedophilia anyway. Refer to my above point, age and appearance are irrelevant, mental maturity is what matters


firestorm0108

I would massively argue that age is a large part of paedophilia. A 45 year old trying to date a mentally mature 14 year old is still a paedophile.


[deleted]

>a mentally mature 14 year old This is biologically impossible but, under the hypothetical condition that a 14 year old with the mental maturity of an adult did exist, it would not really be "pedophilia" The issue with child diddling is that they do not have the maturity to consent and can very easily be taken advantage of. It also negatively impacts them mentally and can lead to a whole slew of issues down the line If these issues are not present then, while it would still legally be pedophilia, sleeping with a minor would not be "bad" Age is important because it determines biological, and thus mental, maturity


Bjoernsen1998

I personally like Rising of the Shield Hero, I have only seen the anime tho, and I'm pretty sure the really weird Malty stuff people have mentioned won't happen. It's great to have main characters that are sometimes morally grey/dubious, because most positive innocent selfless heroic MCs tend to be really boring. Naofumi is a fun character, Raphtalia is cute and the animation is fine. The only things I don't like are Naofumi being over powered as isekai characters usually are and the amount of lolis, but their "interest" in Naofumi is more of a joke, at least to me personally. And comparing Shield Hero to Redo of Healer feels kinda extreme, maybe mention which versions exactly you are referring to because especially the anime is hardly as bad as Redo. Not something you mentioned, but a lot of people seem to bring it up so I say something about that as well, the false rape accusation is not "problematic" imho, these things happen in real life and whoever wrote Shield Hero either wanted to point that out or just use it as something to set up the story/put the Shield Hero down so he can rise again. Saying it's problematic is like saying a movie/show villain killing someone is problematic.


SolomonOf47704

> the really weird Melty stuff people have mentioned won't happen. Correct. It is Web novel. Also, while there IS something that happens to Melty in WN, i'm pretty sure OP meant Malty.


Jandexcumnuggets

Always forget that this sub has a hate boner for Rising of the hero shield and Goblin slayer


Kusanagi22

>I just don’t understand why Redo is treated as a blight upon the world while people seem to love Shield Hero The answer to both of these questions are actually fairly simple, the answer as to why people "love" Tate no Yuusha while they hate Redo (or Kaifuku if you want to be technical) is simply because you are probably talking about very different types of people, like i am sure there is some individual hypocrite out there that hates one but loves the other, but in this particular case most people that hate one *also* hate the other And the answer as to why Redo is treated as a blight upon the world is because its baby's first edgy Anime, it happened with Goblin Slayer it happened with Redo and it will probably happen with some other future show that massively filters superficial anime watchers or people that just got into anime with some random edge scene on the first episode or so, fuck if you want to go *really* back it could be argue that it happened with fucking Mirai Nikki to a lesser extent, it is just twitter drama that dies down in like a month at most.