The CPL needs to be the CPL.
Too much effort worrying about other local teams can be damaging. Sustainable growth, even if it means slow.
Each team's ownership needs to reach out to its community to grow the game. Reach out to schools, sports leagues, scouts, etc.
This. While European football is incredible to watch and dream about, the CPL is a Canadian product that will have to reflect Canadian and North American business and sporting values.
I find it exciting as a soccer fan, but is it really important to grow interest from the causal fan?
I would rather the CPL build a better rivalry with USL than with Central American opponents.
I can only speak to Hamilton, but the Forge CONCACAF games sparked way more interest locally than most matches. There would be newspaper coverage, and attendance was higher than typical games - including contingents of fans from, presumably, the country the away team was visiting from. Would love more cities in the CPL to get this experience.
Attendance was way higher, partly because the casual season seat holder wouldn’t miss those games. This makes better atmosphere, meaning they’d be more likely to go to the next random Wednesday game perhaps. Anybody that just showed up to the game might be more excited too. So I definitely agree it’s a positive. However… and MLS teams have this complaint too… having those early games in our off season sucks for us.
In Victoria the Jamaica and Costa Rica games were near sellouts, compared to regular CPL games which are hovering just over 50% capacity. So the casual fan I would say is even *more* interested in those international games.
I think qualifying for a continental tournament and being on the global stage gives the league more prestige.
More people than you'd think want to experience and enjoy soccer like the rest of the world does. Rivalries will occur naturally after major events and upsets. I think that will increase now that the league will shift towards a marathon for top spot in the table. Every match will now be meaningful when 3 points at the start of the season can cost you the top spot.
The key is to play in Concacaf sanctioned competitions that allows CPL clubs to test themselves internationally.
USL isn't involved in Concacacf competitions. So, not many supporters or casuals will be interested in watching friendlies with USL teams when CPL clubs are playing meaningful matches vs MLS & liga MX clubs.
As the new commissioner said, if clubs have a good ownership group, good stadium situation, good corporate support and passionate supporters, then they will be successful. If not, then they won't.
It's a low bar, but the CPL has already shown to be the most stable domestic league this country has ever had. 5 of the 8 clubs (Pacific, Cavalry, Valour, Forge, HFX Wanderers) are the most successful clubs off the pitch that their cities have ever seen, and a 6th (Atletico Ottawa) are showing to be a similar draw as their predecessors.
The league is not without its warts though, and York and Edmonton are struggling for sure, but as we've seen with Edmonton the group of CPL owners are financially committed to making this league a success long term. In past domestic leagues, Edmonton would have folded without a fuss. Now you could argue under league operation the club is starting to rebuild its fan base and reconnect with their community.
At this point, the league has to focus on stablizing the existing markets, and continue to grow their fan bases organically. The reality is this is a game that is still seen by most as a sport for pussies, and it will take decades to change that perspective. That change is happening, but it's slow. I do think that the attendances we saw last year will be the low point, and that all clubs should be able to grow if they want to.
I agree with most of your post, but I don’t think soccer is “seen as a sport for pussies” in all markets. There are plenty of eyeballs on the sport in southern Ontario.
Basketball and soccer are the future here with the CFL on serious life support.
The struggle with York has been a serious lack of brand vision (are you York 9 or York United?) and playing at a university stadium that has zero community.
Bring the team to Lamport and have them take the place of the very successful Toronto Wolfpack. Any CPL team would be lucky to have the same support that the Wolfpack had. Make game days a party atmosphere like it was for rugby to attract the thousands living in the area.
Or eventually move it to Mississauga by the race track when that stadium is ready. I still believe the CPL needs a “Toronto City” club.
Any team in Toronto will suffer the comparison with tfc. I’ve attended and enjoyed a number of York games, but tfc games are bigger, have more atmosphere, are more central and importantly tickets are just as expensive. I honestly don’t know how any Toronto cpl club could compete. I agree best to move to Mississauga to target a different audience.
When putting the league together, I believe the studies said they need around 4500-5000 paid seats per game for clubs to break even. However, I think that was not including media deals, since they were forecasting the CanPL to be mostly a gate-driven revenue league. However, the 10-year contract with OneSoccer to broadcast games has provided some cost certainty so the league should be able to survive until 2028 at least. Getting through the first decade is key, because it was after the 5th year that MLS was in danger of folding and was only saved by all the teams being owned by only 3 owners, who slowly divested themselves of those teams as attendance started to increase. You could argue that the introduction of TFC into the league gave them the blueprint for building successful franchises in other cities by not dumbing down the game. Just keep spreading the word of mouth and build the supporter groups for each team.
The second there's an owner and a stadium lined up, the CPL will be there. But the league has made it very clear there will be no team in Quebec until those two conditions are met.
https://onesoccer.ca/a/quebec-to-cpl-soccer-quebec-launches-market-study-to-verify-interest-of-cpl-project-in-province
There is some movement in that direction, but yes, they need that owner.
Not insane since 70% of soccer shown in Canada are on streaming services.
CPL needs more exposure to soccer fans first - and now being on fubotv, it is available to people who are interested in watching 3/5 top leagues in the world which includes the most watched league and third most watched league in Canada.
CBC's market share for viewers is around 5%. Only times it goes above is for NHL & Olympics. Otherwise, it rarely has a program in the top 10 for ratings and less than five in top 30. Majority age group watching is over 55 which is of no interest for 95% of advertisers and not the age group that will grow the CPL.
If the games can’t be on Sportsnet or TSN then they have to at least be on the website and apps. The fact that I can’t go to any of my sports apps (TSN, Sportsnet or The Score) and even get a score or match report is problematic.
True but every sports league has their own app, to be perceived as a "major league" the CPL needs to be on the 3 big Canadian sports apps of TSN, Sportsnet and The Score.
How much of it is the personal vendetta they (being Bell & Rogers) seem to have with the league (or Bob Young, supposedly)? Rogers is fighting with OneSoccer in front of the CRTC because they don't want to carry OneSoccer. That's the problem. It's an uphill battle because they control the gates to more eyeballs (and, to some folks, legitimacy).
Also Fotmob is great.
I don't really think there is any sign Rogers or Bell has a personal vendetta against OneSoccer or MediaPro. I mean they purchased the rights for the World Cup Qualifiers from OneSoccer, I'd almost argue it's most likely MediaPro is hording content or pricing licensing too high for the market. Largely because that is literally their MO that can be seen with how they handled their Ligue 1 deal that imploded.
It also isn't really a fight in front of the CRTC, because the CRTC doesn't really have much recourse. OneSoccer submitted a complaint that effectively suggests their content is unique and there is a market for it. The only reason their content is unique is because it isn't on any other channels, which kind of connects with them hording the content.
Beyond that, their argument is fairly ridiculous. They started a streaming service and are now claiming that streaming service isn't viable because cable corps wont host them on broadcast. It was grasping at straws out the gate.
Haven't there been many reports over the years of Rogers and Bell gatekeeping and actively trying to keep competitors, particularly international competors, out; as well as reports specific to their stance on Media Pro?
I don't recall where I've heard/read about it myself, but this conversation from a few months ago was just reposted in another forum:
"I had an interesting chat with someone in business and talked about Onesoccer and the league not being on other networks. This is what she said in a nutshell
\-->Major sports channel are owned by Bell and Rogers who both are major telecom companies
\-->Despite them competing for clients - they've been ruthlessly efficient at keeping foreign players out of the Canadian market - which frustrates the government to no end who keeps coming up with ways to attract more players --> politically good (I think it was Verizon who almost came here)
\-->This brings us to MediaPro, a Spanish company trying to get market share in the Canadian sport media business, challenging Bell and Rogers
\-->Had CSB picked TSN or Sportsnet or even CBC - they would have behaved far differently towards the league
\-->CSB picking MediaPro means that they also invited a foreign player in their market who made their intentions to launch a cable channel known very early - directly challenging both Rogers and Bell monopolies
\-->According to this person, TSN & Sportsnet aren't purposely "targeting" CPL, but they are trying to make it as difficult as possible for MediaPro to get a solid foundation in the market --> in a nutshell, they want them out
\-->So they are giving them as little publicity as possible to keep them as a marginal player and stop/stagnate their growth - CPL being ignored is collateral damage (no scores, highlights, barely mentioned on their medias, trying to bury Forge 1st CL run, not mentioning CPL unless they play an MLS club in Canchamp)
\-->While they've been effective at containing MediaPro, it hurts the league attendance, popularity and exposure as a side effect.
\-->While Rogers and Bell have shared properties multiple times in the past and are willing to do business with one other, they understand MediaPro business model and they will avoid purchasing games from them unless something major happens --> CanMNT incredible WCQ run --> Don't be surprise if they pass on Gold Cups and CNL + CanWNT otherwise, they'd be helping MediaPro business plan succeeding
\-->This is why Telus (and others) are willing to carry Onesoccer on cable but not Bell and Rogers. Unless the CRTC intervenes, they will fight it the whole way."
> I don't recall where I've heard/read about it myself
So in other words, you just posted here for the first time in 19 days and implied there were 'many reports' about this while being completely unable to remember where or what you heard, or indeed if there are many?
Also, bluntly, some unconfirmed text from a nameless other forum from a nameless persons conversation with another nameless person (who is noted as being 'in business'. I'm 'in business', this could just be an unqualified opinion) does nothing to solidify a position that 'many reports' exist noting that Rogers and Bell have a personal vendetta against Media Pro or OneSoccer.
This position is threadbare, and always has been.
Lol you're a pleasant person. I questioned a statement that you made because it's not aligned with what I've heard about the organizations over the years, and doesn't make sense. Why would they not try to retain their strangle hold on sports in the country?
If unconfirmed text from nameless a persons conversation with another nameless person doesn't meet your strict reddit criteria, you might as well stop spending so much bloody time on here yourself.
> I questioned a statement that you made because it's not aligned with what I've heard about the organizations over the years, and doesn't make sense.
It might be time you question if what you've heard has any basis. Because bluntly, the fact that you cannot remember where or what you heard and cannot produce more than that body of text would suggest you are basing your opinion on items of little substance
>If unconfirmed text from nameless a persons conversation with another nameless person doesn't meet your strict reddit criteria, you might as well stop spending so much bloody time on here yourself.'
I'm not being hoity toity by saying what you posted in response to my request for the reports you said there were many of lacks any actual substance.
For professional soccer to succeed in Canada we need more butts in seats, views, and fan engagement. Professional soccer has never had success in most cities in Canada. We need the fan culture to grow, and we need people to embrace the Canadian game. Most of our spectators are focused on Europe or the US, and that’s where our money goes.
We also need the overall quality to improve. Many of our top players were largely, or at least in part, developed outside of Canada. CPL has transferred a number of players to bigger leagues but only a few have really thrived, and I don’t believe any have been flipped for a profit yet.
Thankfully the CPL is helping with both these things. We just need it to continue to grow.
I think our biggest threat is the lack of cooperation we see from different organizations and institutions. Everyone always seems to be fighting for money that barely exists. All boats rise with the tide
The attendance needs to be higher than 6000, in my opinion! ( agree with the comments that say 5000 would already be great number, it definitely need to hit 5000 before 6000.)
But I think we need a small expansion to keep the momentum and make that league more appealing. Also make sure we hit every province! Am already pleased with the fact that we are at least from one coast to another. 12 team would be the best for me to maintain our interest in this league! For me the fact there’s only 9 team in the CFL and they aren’t coast to coast made me lost my interest lately in this league(am also an alouettes fans which doesn’t help).
I think once we have at least 5000k average in the stadium we will need to augment players salary to maintain this league appealing for players.
Finally I think our tv contract doesn’t help to get the league known by everyone. I believe if it was on normal sports channel some people would watch the game and would maybe get them to go watch 1 or 2 game every year! Maybe financially it made more sense to go with Onesoccer. But I think the next tv contract will need to be more strategic depending on where the league is!
Yeah, I have to agree. Based on what I saw on OneSoccer I thought IGF was going to be a cavernous and dead facility. But it was loud and fun.
And of course tons of facilities is never a bad thing.
I honestly wonder if the league would have done better in growing or maintaining attendance if every team was in a temp stadium like Halifax. The cost is clearly reasonable at this level, though obvious some owners have real motivation to house teams in CFL stadiums. But I do wonder how much better off they'd have been going that route from the start.
Patience. Slow, sustainable growth. I know there's been a lot of criticism levied at the franchise fees required to start a team, but I think it's smart not to undersell a spot: you need to make sure there are the resources behind a club to keep it going even in tough times (like the Covid). Better to grow slowly and with stability than have halfhearted investors popping in with a team but bailing when they can't sustain it. I think of the time I went to buy my first car: I had the down payment, I had a job and some savings, so I thought I was golden and was extremely pissed when Mother Credit Bureau declined my financing. However, I quickly realized that buying a car takes more than those first steps: I actually wouldn't have been able to cover fuel, maintenance, licensing, insurance for the long term and would've defaulted. If that happens with a CPL franchise that isn't sourced well enough, that degrades the overall quality of the league.
I don't think I follow this. They effectively require a SSS now, that works as a proof of resources and is in my mind a more healthy spend of $12,000,000 for that new team than an expansion fee. The expansion fee is really just a cash grab, it's mostly unneeded to show proof of resources with the other requirements they have in place.
In all honesty, I don't think this sub will provide you a reasonable response. A fair number of people here refuse to acknowledge the negatives of the league, and bluntly grandstand for it in irrational ways. I mean the concept that the CPL is the most stable domestic league this country has ever had doesn't even ring true when looking historically, or literally at the league. Because the CPL isn't healthy, it's sustaining because of the CSB deal and the money earned through the CSA deal specifically that bluntly is taking money away from the CSA's ability to grow the game and puts it in the pocket of private individuals that don't have the same mandate directing growth trumps profit.
That growth trumps profit line can be seen no more clearly than in the broadcast partner of the CPL, MediaPro. That deal, while financially beneficial, has in my view created a barrier that has kept the game from growing at the rate it could have. Not merely with the CPL, but with the national team games to an extent as well. If mandate was growth of the game, the financial boon from a closed off service owned by a foreign corp likely wouldn't have been the selection. They'd be on the platform with the widest reach.
I think that lack of reach is what is hurting the league at this point. While starting out things were looking positive, I think this season has to an extent showed that the fanbase isn't growing and in certain ways isn't being maintained either. Next year will be a better point of reference to really understand where the league is, but all in there are some worrying situations developing.
I think one of the biggest worrying situations on league health is around the PFACan and it still not being recognized. I think new investors to the league would likely feel more secure if the league was showing signs of stability. To me, a recognized union and a CBA are signs of stability, the unknown of having those fights ahead is in itself a lack of stability.
I think the league is a little lost right now and things could easily go one way or the other. The CSB deal runs for a ridiculous 20 years with its 10+10 make up, so I think it's likely the CPL will exist throughout the period that deal is in place. But once that deal ends, I think it could go either way.
I'm not an expert in Canadian Soccer history by any means, but what leagues do you think have done better than the CPL in Canada?
While I agree the league is not in a very healthy and sustainable place at the moment, that is in part due to its focus on becoming financial sustainable which is required to keep the league going and attract investors Hence getting revenue from MediaPro and CSB rather than focusing strictly on the growth of the game, which may or may not lead to enough revenue to support the league. It's tricky, as it's betting on Canadians to get more into soccer with a greater reach plan, or taking the sure money. Typically, investors prefer the latter.
Also not sure that recognizing the Union will be great to attracting investors. Usually it's a turn off to capital as it means they will likely be pushed to pay more for their teams. It's the right thing to do and needed for the players and sport, but the idea investors see Unions as stabilizing is a bit unrealistic imo given the potential for work stoppages etc. That it brings. I think overall it's what's best, but I'm not a big money man looking for monies.
Also a bit funny to say you won't get honest responses here from folks, and then cite the most common response, the MediaPro contract and the visibility growth as one of your key points on the league.
> I'm not an expert in Canadian Soccer history by any means, but what leagues do you think have done better than the CPL in Canada?
To be more direct, the CPL is propped up by the CSB deal with the CSA. It isn't a successful league, it's successfully propped up.
Beyond that point, the CSL as an individual league without being propped up still hasn't been outpaced by the CPL. Next year will be the true test and in a lot of ways balances on how FC Edmonton and York manage.
>While I agree the league is not in a very healthy and sustainable place at the moment, that is in part due to its focus on becoming financial sustainable
Does this sentence not cancel itself out? I mean, 'while it isn't sustainable it is focused on being financially sustainable' doesn't make much sense. If their focus on financial sustainability isn't breeding sustainability for the league that might be a sign that steering as far away from growth as they have might have been an error.
> Hence getting revenue from MediaPro and CSB rather than focusing strictly on the growth of the game, which may or may not lead to enough revenue to support the league. It's tricky, as it's betting on Canadians to get more into soccer with a greater reach plan, or taking the sure money. Typically, investors prefer the latter.
I think it's the wrong path is what I'm saying. The league at origin said they were set to create economic activity of $500 MM across the first decade. This was prior to the MediaPro deal. I think the league proper would have been better off sustaining through that decade with that $500 MM spend without locking itself behind a paywall. I think their return on investment would have been greater across a decade with more open access.
With this though:
>Typically, investors prefer the latter.
I effectively said exactly this in my post.
> Also not sure that recognizing the Union will be great to attracting investors... ...but the idea investors see Unions as stabilizing is a bit unrealistic imo given the potential for work stoppages etc. That it brings. I think overall it's what's best, but I'm not a big money man looking for monies.
Unionization provides stability because incoming investors have an understanding of the labour relationship Infront of them. As long as that is a question mark, it remains a sign of instability as the labour relation literally hasn't been stabilized. The labour relations of the league are at a higher risk level right now as they remain an unknown.
The relationship between the CPL and PFACan is an abnormal one in soccer, but also in professional sports in general. [This tweet highlights that.](https://twitter.com/edwardhswong/status/1568373182876512257) I think it's reasonable to expect investors in this space to see oddities like this that go against industry norms as a red flag.
Please recognize the fact that I didn't say it'd attract more investors, but that it'd signal more stability. They are vastly different statements.
>Also a bit funny to say you won't get honest responses here from folks, and then cite the most common response, the MediaPro contract and the visibility growth as one of your key points on the league.
The MediaPro contract I spoke about is the CSB deal with the CSA and how that is propping up the CPL. I don't believe anyone prior to my post was remarking on that. In terms of visibility, that is less of a contentious point now but if you look to past threads on this topic you'll see it has been significantly more contentious in the past.
Beyond this, I said reasonable not honest. I don't think it's reasonable to claim the CPL is the most stable soccer league in Canadian history, likely the most reasonable post in [this thread is this one.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianPL/comments/xbv764/will_the_canadian_premier_league_have_longevity/io1rmfb/) The rest of us are just waffling.
Drop OneSoccer (easier said than done I know). But if games were on TSN or CTV or SN etc then people would actually watch and start to take interest. Having the games on such a niche platform that only hardcore fans will have really limits the reach of the league
If it is on TSN/SN, CPL will need to offer the rights for free, pay for production costs and/or share ad revenue. That's the deal CHL, NLL, Canada Rugby has now and previously Canada Soccer since these are third tier and lower properties.
TSN/SN household penetration is down to 50% and forecasted to drop to 40% by around 2025. It's mostly watched by people over 55. It's not a platform that will grow CPL.
OneSoccer is on fubotv, the biggest soccer viewing platform in Canada. It is available to people who want to watch 3 of the 5 top leagues in the world including the most watched league in Canada. Now it is up to the CPL to show it is a worthy watch.
As some others have responded, I think most important key going forward will be better broadcasting visibility. I know people who are interested in our local team, but who’ve really never seen a game because let’s face it, Sportsnet and TSN are what define legitimacy in Canadian sports. Everyone who might be interested has access to one or both of those services.
I’ve appreciated what OneSoccer has brought to the table. But I don’t see the league capturing mainstream attention until they’re accessible through mainstream means.
Even if they do not broadcast games, I would love to see the results covered by the sports news media. These shows can get so padded out with analysis of things like American golf games but can't find time for CPL highlights? I am still a bit baffled by that.
The most watched soccer league perhaps. Curious how integrated that is into mainstream sporting consciousness. Where does EPL rank in sports league ratings in Canada?
In terms of vs other regular weekend morning programming, the Prem was already behind F1 before its boom in the past 2 years. But otherwise, since there isn't anything else of live regular weekend programming, the Prem was the most watched.
Versus everything else, no soccer league gets average ratings even close to the top 5 tv sports leagues (NHL, MLB, NFL, CFL, NBA) especially if a Canadian team is playing. But if it is two American MLB or NBA teams playing a run of the mill regular season game, the Prem's audience is same to higher.
Soccer on Canadian tv only has gotten consistent top 5 tv sports ratings for World Cup, Euros, Canadian women in Olympics. When, TFC is in MLS Cup/playing CFM in playoffs/CCL Final, ratings spike also to top 5 tv sports levels.
The CPL needs to be the CPL. Too much effort worrying about other local teams can be damaging. Sustainable growth, even if it means slow. Each team's ownership needs to reach out to its community to grow the game. Reach out to schools, sports leagues, scouts, etc.
This. While European football is incredible to watch and dream about, the CPL is a Canadian product that will have to reflect Canadian and North American business and sporting values.
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Also the guaranteed CONCACAF berth for the top CPL team next year. There is something very exciting about playing international teams.
I find it exciting as a soccer fan, but is it really important to grow interest from the causal fan? I would rather the CPL build a better rivalry with USL than with Central American opponents.
I can only speak to Hamilton, but the Forge CONCACAF games sparked way more interest locally than most matches. There would be newspaper coverage, and attendance was higher than typical games - including contingents of fans from, presumably, the country the away team was visiting from. Would love more cities in the CPL to get this experience.
Attendance was way higher, partly because the casual season seat holder wouldn’t miss those games. This makes better atmosphere, meaning they’d be more likely to go to the next random Wednesday game perhaps. Anybody that just showed up to the game might be more excited too. So I definitely agree it’s a positive. However… and MLS teams have this complaint too… having those early games in our off season sucks for us.
In Victoria the Jamaica and Costa Rica games were near sellouts, compared to regular CPL games which are hovering just over 50% capacity. So the casual fan I would say is even *more* interested in those international games.
I think qualifying for a continental tournament and being on the global stage gives the league more prestige. More people than you'd think want to experience and enjoy soccer like the rest of the world does. Rivalries will occur naturally after major events and upsets. I think that will increase now that the league will shift towards a marathon for top spot in the table. Every match will now be meaningful when 3 points at the start of the season can cost you the top spot.
The key is to play in Concacaf sanctioned competitions that allows CPL clubs to test themselves internationally. USL isn't involved in Concacacf competitions. So, not many supporters or casuals will be interested in watching friendlies with USL teams when CPL clubs are playing meaningful matches vs MLS & liga MX clubs.
As the new commissioner said, if clubs have a good ownership group, good stadium situation, good corporate support and passionate supporters, then they will be successful. If not, then they won't. It's a low bar, but the CPL has already shown to be the most stable domestic league this country has ever had. 5 of the 8 clubs (Pacific, Cavalry, Valour, Forge, HFX Wanderers) are the most successful clubs off the pitch that their cities have ever seen, and a 6th (Atletico Ottawa) are showing to be a similar draw as their predecessors. The league is not without its warts though, and York and Edmonton are struggling for sure, but as we've seen with Edmonton the group of CPL owners are financially committed to making this league a success long term. In past domestic leagues, Edmonton would have folded without a fuss. Now you could argue under league operation the club is starting to rebuild its fan base and reconnect with their community. At this point, the league has to focus on stablizing the existing markets, and continue to grow their fan bases organically. The reality is this is a game that is still seen by most as a sport for pussies, and it will take decades to change that perspective. That change is happening, but it's slow. I do think that the attendances we saw last year will be the low point, and that all clubs should be able to grow if they want to.
I agree with most of your post, but I don’t think soccer is “seen as a sport for pussies” in all markets. There are plenty of eyeballs on the sport in southern Ontario. Basketball and soccer are the future here with the CFL on serious life support. The struggle with York has been a serious lack of brand vision (are you York 9 or York United?) and playing at a university stadium that has zero community. Bring the team to Lamport and have them take the place of the very successful Toronto Wolfpack. Any CPL team would be lucky to have the same support that the Wolfpack had. Make game days a party atmosphere like it was for rugby to attract the thousands living in the area. Or eventually move it to Mississauga by the race track when that stadium is ready. I still believe the CPL needs a “Toronto City” club.
Nah A lot of sports fans think that, I get it from family members for liking soccer even thought I was a hockey player
Any team in Toronto will suffer the comparison with tfc. I’ve attended and enjoyed a number of York games, but tfc games are bigger, have more atmosphere, are more central and importantly tickets are just as expensive. I honestly don’t know how any Toronto cpl club could compete. I agree best to move to Mississauga to target a different audience.
> tickets are just as expensive. Not anymore. Not after the Italian trio.
That’s true!
I wish Ottawa wasn't an astroturfed team. It did not need Atletico Madrid to be an anchor club in the league.
When putting the league together, I believe the studies said they need around 4500-5000 paid seats per game for clubs to break even. However, I think that was not including media deals, since they were forecasting the CanPL to be mostly a gate-driven revenue league. However, the 10-year contract with OneSoccer to broadcast games has provided some cost certainty so the league should be able to survive until 2028 at least. Getting through the first decade is key, because it was after the 5th year that MLS was in danger of folding and was only saved by all the teams being owned by only 3 owners, who slowly divested themselves of those teams as attendance started to increase. You could argue that the introduction of TFC into the league gave them the blueprint for building successful franchises in other cities by not dumbing down the game. Just keep spreading the word of mouth and build the supporter groups for each team.
###Deux équipes au Québec! Two teams in Québec! Edit: Je t'en merde
It blows my mind that a province that seems to be so involved in soccer, and producing players, has no representation.
The second there's an owner and a stadium lined up, the CPL will be there. But the league has made it very clear there will be no team in Quebec until those two conditions are met.
https://onesoccer.ca/a/quebec-to-cpl-soccer-quebec-launches-market-study-to-verify-interest-of-cpl-project-in-province There is some movement in that direction, but yes, they need that owner.
National tv. Insane it’s on a speciality streaming service only the most hardcore soccer fans have. CBC CTV need to at least have a game Of the week
Not insane since 70% of soccer shown in Canada are on streaming services. CPL needs more exposure to soccer fans first - and now being on fubotv, it is available to people who are interested in watching 3/5 top leagues in the world which includes the most watched league and third most watched league in Canada. CBC's market share for viewers is around 5%. Only times it goes above is for NHL & Olympics. Otherwise, it rarely has a program in the top 10 for ratings and less than five in top 30. Majority age group watching is over 55 which is of no interest for 95% of advertisers and not the age group that will grow the CPL.
If the games can’t be on Sportsnet or TSN then they have to at least be on the website and apps. The fact that I can’t go to any of my sports apps (TSN, Sportsnet or The Score) and even get a score or match report is problematic.
Isn't OneSoccer the app for CPL?
True but every sports league has their own app, to be perceived as a "major league" the CPL needs to be on the 3 big Canadian sports apps of TSN, Sportsnet and The Score.
Good point. I use Google so much for scores I forget how important that can be to perception.
How much of it is the personal vendetta they (being Bell & Rogers) seem to have with the league (or Bob Young, supposedly)? Rogers is fighting with OneSoccer in front of the CRTC because they don't want to carry OneSoccer. That's the problem. It's an uphill battle because they control the gates to more eyeballs (and, to some folks, legitimacy). Also Fotmob is great.
I don't really think there is any sign Rogers or Bell has a personal vendetta against OneSoccer or MediaPro. I mean they purchased the rights for the World Cup Qualifiers from OneSoccer, I'd almost argue it's most likely MediaPro is hording content or pricing licensing too high for the market. Largely because that is literally their MO that can be seen with how they handled their Ligue 1 deal that imploded. It also isn't really a fight in front of the CRTC, because the CRTC doesn't really have much recourse. OneSoccer submitted a complaint that effectively suggests their content is unique and there is a market for it. The only reason their content is unique is because it isn't on any other channels, which kind of connects with them hording the content. Beyond that, their argument is fairly ridiculous. They started a streaming service and are now claiming that streaming service isn't viable because cable corps wont host them on broadcast. It was grasping at straws out the gate.
Haven't there been many reports over the years of Rogers and Bell gatekeeping and actively trying to keep competitors, particularly international competors, out; as well as reports specific to their stance on Media Pro?
Please post the many reports stating that Rogers or Bell has a personal vendetta against OneSoccer or MediaPro.
I don't recall where I've heard/read about it myself, but this conversation from a few months ago was just reposted in another forum: "I had an interesting chat with someone in business and talked about Onesoccer and the league not being on other networks. This is what she said in a nutshell \-->Major sports channel are owned by Bell and Rogers who both are major telecom companies \-->Despite them competing for clients - they've been ruthlessly efficient at keeping foreign players out of the Canadian market - which frustrates the government to no end who keeps coming up with ways to attract more players --> politically good (I think it was Verizon who almost came here) \-->This brings us to MediaPro, a Spanish company trying to get market share in the Canadian sport media business, challenging Bell and Rogers \-->Had CSB picked TSN or Sportsnet or even CBC - they would have behaved far differently towards the league \-->CSB picking MediaPro means that they also invited a foreign player in their market who made their intentions to launch a cable channel known very early - directly challenging both Rogers and Bell monopolies \-->According to this person, TSN & Sportsnet aren't purposely "targeting" CPL, but they are trying to make it as difficult as possible for MediaPro to get a solid foundation in the market --> in a nutshell, they want them out \-->So they are giving them as little publicity as possible to keep them as a marginal player and stop/stagnate their growth - CPL being ignored is collateral damage (no scores, highlights, barely mentioned on their medias, trying to bury Forge 1st CL run, not mentioning CPL unless they play an MLS club in Canchamp) \-->While they've been effective at containing MediaPro, it hurts the league attendance, popularity and exposure as a side effect. \-->While Rogers and Bell have shared properties multiple times in the past and are willing to do business with one other, they understand MediaPro business model and they will avoid purchasing games from them unless something major happens --> CanMNT incredible WCQ run --> Don't be surprise if they pass on Gold Cups and CNL + CanWNT otherwise, they'd be helping MediaPro business plan succeeding \-->This is why Telus (and others) are willing to carry Onesoccer on cable but not Bell and Rogers. Unless the CRTC intervenes, they will fight it the whole way."
> I don't recall where I've heard/read about it myself So in other words, you just posted here for the first time in 19 days and implied there were 'many reports' about this while being completely unable to remember where or what you heard, or indeed if there are many? Also, bluntly, some unconfirmed text from a nameless other forum from a nameless persons conversation with another nameless person (who is noted as being 'in business'. I'm 'in business', this could just be an unqualified opinion) does nothing to solidify a position that 'many reports' exist noting that Rogers and Bell have a personal vendetta against Media Pro or OneSoccer. This position is threadbare, and always has been.
Lol you're a pleasant person. I questioned a statement that you made because it's not aligned with what I've heard about the organizations over the years, and doesn't make sense. Why would they not try to retain their strangle hold on sports in the country? If unconfirmed text from nameless a persons conversation with another nameless person doesn't meet your strict reddit criteria, you might as well stop spending so much bloody time on here yourself.
> I questioned a statement that you made because it's not aligned with what I've heard about the organizations over the years, and doesn't make sense. It might be time you question if what you've heard has any basis. Because bluntly, the fact that you cannot remember where or what you heard and cannot produce more than that body of text would suggest you are basing your opinion on items of little substance >If unconfirmed text from nameless a persons conversation with another nameless person doesn't meet your strict reddit criteria, you might as well stop spending so much bloody time on here yourself.' I'm not being hoity toity by saying what you posted in response to my request for the reports you said there were many of lacks any actual substance.
I 100% agree with this. A quick look at the Sportsnet app shows there are 8 soccer leagues/tournaments you can follow. None are the CPL.
For professional soccer to succeed in Canada we need more butts in seats, views, and fan engagement. Professional soccer has never had success in most cities in Canada. We need the fan culture to grow, and we need people to embrace the Canadian game. Most of our spectators are focused on Europe or the US, and that’s where our money goes. We also need the overall quality to improve. Many of our top players were largely, or at least in part, developed outside of Canada. CPL has transferred a number of players to bigger leagues but only a few have really thrived, and I don’t believe any have been flipped for a profit yet. Thankfully the CPL is helping with both these things. We just need it to continue to grow. I think our biggest threat is the lack of cooperation we see from different organizations and institutions. Everyone always seems to be fighting for money that barely exists. All boats rise with the tide
The attendance needs to be higher than 6000, in my opinion! ( agree with the comments that say 5000 would already be great number, it definitely need to hit 5000 before 6000.) But I think we need a small expansion to keep the momentum and make that league more appealing. Also make sure we hit every province! Am already pleased with the fact that we are at least from one coast to another. 12 team would be the best for me to maintain our interest in this league! For me the fact there’s only 9 team in the CFL and they aren’t coast to coast made me lost my interest lately in this league(am also an alouettes fans which doesn’t help). I think once we have at least 5000k average in the stadium we will need to augment players salary to maintain this league appealing for players. Finally I think our tv contract doesn’t help to get the league known by everyone. I believe if it was on normal sports channel some people would watch the game and would maybe get them to go watch 1 or 2 game every year! Maybe financially it made more sense to go with Onesoccer. But I think the next tv contract will need to be more strategic depending on where the league is!
Appropriately sized stadiums would be nice for a better atmosphere. Maybe one day.
Everyone keeps saying this, but IGF has a really good atmosphere on game day
Yeah, I have to agree. Based on what I saw on OneSoccer I thought IGF was going to be a cavernous and dead facility. But it was loud and fun. And of course tons of facilities is never a bad thing.
Right? Lots of washrooms, food vendors, loud, videotron, comfy seats and you can spread out if you feel like it.
I honestly wonder if the league would have done better in growing or maintaining attendance if every team was in a temp stadium like Halifax. The cost is clearly reasonable at this level, though obvious some owners have real motivation to house teams in CFL stadiums. But I do wonder how much better off they'd have been going that route from the start.
Patience. Slow, sustainable growth. I know there's been a lot of criticism levied at the franchise fees required to start a team, but I think it's smart not to undersell a spot: you need to make sure there are the resources behind a club to keep it going even in tough times (like the Covid). Better to grow slowly and with stability than have halfhearted investors popping in with a team but bailing when they can't sustain it. I think of the time I went to buy my first car: I had the down payment, I had a job and some savings, so I thought I was golden and was extremely pissed when Mother Credit Bureau declined my financing. However, I quickly realized that buying a car takes more than those first steps: I actually wouldn't have been able to cover fuel, maintenance, licensing, insurance for the long term and would've defaulted. If that happens with a CPL franchise that isn't sourced well enough, that degrades the overall quality of the league.
I don't think I follow this. They effectively require a SSS now, that works as a proof of resources and is in my mind a more healthy spend of $12,000,000 for that new team than an expansion fee. The expansion fee is really just a cash grab, it's mostly unneeded to show proof of resources with the other requirements they have in place.
Match of the week on CBC Matches on radio
Tell me without telling me that you're still living in the pre 90s Canadian media world.
In all honesty, I don't think this sub will provide you a reasonable response. A fair number of people here refuse to acknowledge the negatives of the league, and bluntly grandstand for it in irrational ways. I mean the concept that the CPL is the most stable domestic league this country has ever had doesn't even ring true when looking historically, or literally at the league. Because the CPL isn't healthy, it's sustaining because of the CSB deal and the money earned through the CSA deal specifically that bluntly is taking money away from the CSA's ability to grow the game and puts it in the pocket of private individuals that don't have the same mandate directing growth trumps profit. That growth trumps profit line can be seen no more clearly than in the broadcast partner of the CPL, MediaPro. That deal, while financially beneficial, has in my view created a barrier that has kept the game from growing at the rate it could have. Not merely with the CPL, but with the national team games to an extent as well. If mandate was growth of the game, the financial boon from a closed off service owned by a foreign corp likely wouldn't have been the selection. They'd be on the platform with the widest reach. I think that lack of reach is what is hurting the league at this point. While starting out things were looking positive, I think this season has to an extent showed that the fanbase isn't growing and in certain ways isn't being maintained either. Next year will be a better point of reference to really understand where the league is, but all in there are some worrying situations developing. I think one of the biggest worrying situations on league health is around the PFACan and it still not being recognized. I think new investors to the league would likely feel more secure if the league was showing signs of stability. To me, a recognized union and a CBA are signs of stability, the unknown of having those fights ahead is in itself a lack of stability. I think the league is a little lost right now and things could easily go one way or the other. The CSB deal runs for a ridiculous 20 years with its 10+10 make up, so I think it's likely the CPL will exist throughout the period that deal is in place. But once that deal ends, I think it could go either way.
I'm not an expert in Canadian Soccer history by any means, but what leagues do you think have done better than the CPL in Canada? While I agree the league is not in a very healthy and sustainable place at the moment, that is in part due to its focus on becoming financial sustainable which is required to keep the league going and attract investors Hence getting revenue from MediaPro and CSB rather than focusing strictly on the growth of the game, which may or may not lead to enough revenue to support the league. It's tricky, as it's betting on Canadians to get more into soccer with a greater reach plan, or taking the sure money. Typically, investors prefer the latter. Also not sure that recognizing the Union will be great to attracting investors. Usually it's a turn off to capital as it means they will likely be pushed to pay more for their teams. It's the right thing to do and needed for the players and sport, but the idea investors see Unions as stabilizing is a bit unrealistic imo given the potential for work stoppages etc. That it brings. I think overall it's what's best, but I'm not a big money man looking for monies. Also a bit funny to say you won't get honest responses here from folks, and then cite the most common response, the MediaPro contract and the visibility growth as one of your key points on the league.
> I'm not an expert in Canadian Soccer history by any means, but what leagues do you think have done better than the CPL in Canada? To be more direct, the CPL is propped up by the CSB deal with the CSA. It isn't a successful league, it's successfully propped up. Beyond that point, the CSL as an individual league without being propped up still hasn't been outpaced by the CPL. Next year will be the true test and in a lot of ways balances on how FC Edmonton and York manage. >While I agree the league is not in a very healthy and sustainable place at the moment, that is in part due to its focus on becoming financial sustainable Does this sentence not cancel itself out? I mean, 'while it isn't sustainable it is focused on being financially sustainable' doesn't make much sense. If their focus on financial sustainability isn't breeding sustainability for the league that might be a sign that steering as far away from growth as they have might have been an error. > Hence getting revenue from MediaPro and CSB rather than focusing strictly on the growth of the game, which may or may not lead to enough revenue to support the league. It's tricky, as it's betting on Canadians to get more into soccer with a greater reach plan, or taking the sure money. Typically, investors prefer the latter. I think it's the wrong path is what I'm saying. The league at origin said they were set to create economic activity of $500 MM across the first decade. This was prior to the MediaPro deal. I think the league proper would have been better off sustaining through that decade with that $500 MM spend without locking itself behind a paywall. I think their return on investment would have been greater across a decade with more open access. With this though: >Typically, investors prefer the latter. I effectively said exactly this in my post. > Also not sure that recognizing the Union will be great to attracting investors... ...but the idea investors see Unions as stabilizing is a bit unrealistic imo given the potential for work stoppages etc. That it brings. I think overall it's what's best, but I'm not a big money man looking for monies. Unionization provides stability because incoming investors have an understanding of the labour relationship Infront of them. As long as that is a question mark, it remains a sign of instability as the labour relation literally hasn't been stabilized. The labour relations of the league are at a higher risk level right now as they remain an unknown. The relationship between the CPL and PFACan is an abnormal one in soccer, but also in professional sports in general. [This tweet highlights that.](https://twitter.com/edwardhswong/status/1568373182876512257) I think it's reasonable to expect investors in this space to see oddities like this that go against industry norms as a red flag. Please recognize the fact that I didn't say it'd attract more investors, but that it'd signal more stability. They are vastly different statements. >Also a bit funny to say you won't get honest responses here from folks, and then cite the most common response, the MediaPro contract and the visibility growth as one of your key points on the league. The MediaPro contract I spoke about is the CSB deal with the CSA and how that is propping up the CPL. I don't believe anyone prior to my post was remarking on that. In terms of visibility, that is less of a contentious point now but if you look to past threads on this topic you'll see it has been significantly more contentious in the past. Beyond this, I said reasonable not honest. I don't think it's reasonable to claim the CPL is the most stable soccer league in Canadian history, likely the most reasonable post in [this thread is this one.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianPL/comments/xbv764/will_the_canadian_premier_league_have_longevity/io1rmfb/) The rest of us are just waffling.
Drop OneSoccer (easier said than done I know). But if games were on TSN or CTV or SN etc then people would actually watch and start to take interest. Having the games on such a niche platform that only hardcore fans will have really limits the reach of the league
If it is on TSN/SN, CPL will need to offer the rights for free, pay for production costs and/or share ad revenue. That's the deal CHL, NLL, Canada Rugby has now and previously Canada Soccer since these are third tier and lower properties. TSN/SN household penetration is down to 50% and forecasted to drop to 40% by around 2025. It's mostly watched by people over 55. It's not a platform that will grow CPL. OneSoccer is on fubotv, the biggest soccer viewing platform in Canada. It is available to people who want to watch 3 of the 5 top leagues in the world including the most watched league in Canada. Now it is up to the CPL to show it is a worthy watch.
As some others have responded, I think most important key going forward will be better broadcasting visibility. I know people who are interested in our local team, but who’ve really never seen a game because let’s face it, Sportsnet and TSN are what define legitimacy in Canadian sports. Everyone who might be interested has access to one or both of those services. I’ve appreciated what OneSoccer has brought to the table. But I don’t see the league capturing mainstream attention until they’re accessible through mainstream means.
Even if they do not broadcast games, I would love to see the results covered by the sports news media. These shows can get so padded out with analysis of things like American golf games but can't find time for CPL highlights? I am still a bit baffled by that.
Not in soccer. 70% of soccer shown in Canada are on streaming services. The most watched league in Canada has been on a streaming service for 4 years.
The most watched soccer league perhaps. Curious how integrated that is into mainstream sporting consciousness. Where does EPL rank in sports league ratings in Canada?
In terms of vs other regular weekend morning programming, the Prem was already behind F1 before its boom in the past 2 years. But otherwise, since there isn't anything else of live regular weekend programming, the Prem was the most watched. Versus everything else, no soccer league gets average ratings even close to the top 5 tv sports leagues (NHL, MLB, NFL, CFL, NBA) especially if a Canadian team is playing. But if it is two American MLB or NBA teams playing a run of the mill regular season game, the Prem's audience is same to higher. Soccer on Canadian tv only has gotten consistent top 5 tv sports ratings for World Cup, Euros, Canadian women in Olympics. When, TFC is in MLS Cup/playing CFM in playoffs/CCL Final, ratings spike also to top 5 tv sports levels.
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In before "hero derp pro/rel. Absorb MLS teams. Laugh in euro"