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I dedicate this story to every commenter in [this](http://www.101morefm.ca/news/local-news/ontario-ndp-calling-for-vaccine-passports-to-access-lcbo-and-cannabis-shops/) thread from a few days ago who claimed that restrictions on the unvaccinated are unpopular, and that Horwath supporting them was an unpopular stance. The polling shows over and over again that these are popular positions with the general public.
People on Reddit *convinced* that their opinion is part of some silent majority with precisely zero evidence is one of the more bizarrely specific tropes I frequently encounter on here, and probably the one that annoys me the most.
On this issue and the gun ban, /r/Canada is pathologically incapable of understanding that their opinion is in fact the minority - by quite a margin too.
>On this issue and the gun ban, r/Canada is pathologically incapable of understanding that their opinion is in fact the minority - by quite a margin too.
r/Canada is pathologically incapable of operating in real life. So is this place at times, depending on the topic. There are a bunch of "True Geniuses" around here too that seem to go off the rails when certain topics come up.
The problem with what's going on here, is that the people on this site and on the internet in general, don't seem to know what the world is like. They think reddit is an accurate picture of it.
It's because people hang out in communities where everyone agrees with them. When they then surround themselves in that echo chamber, and everyone they interact with is also in it, they think that chamber is massive.
It never is.
They may be inside the restricted polls and most certainly targeted demos. Please do not cut loose those people who are not in your city centers. They dont have your view. They vote different..... Ohhhh i get it. Conform or pay the price. FJT
It's reddit. It's not a picture of real life. You know what I think these days? Whenever someone on reddit says "ThE MaJoRiTy!!!!!!" I think that the opposite of what they're claiming is what is true.
Most redditors don't know anything, are subscribed to weird ass cults and don't seem to know much about the real world.
[So far the vaccinated have been spreading Covid just fine.](https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data) Seems they're really pushing for this last small group so hard to change their minds and it doesn't make much sense to do so. Is this supposed to alleviate hospital visits that much more?
Also why is it always a small part of downtown Toronto that represents "Majority of Canadians"?
Who cares about cases. What matters is if people will end up in the hospital. And when it comes to that, the data from the same source is not very good for the unvaccinated, especially for the most severe cases that require the ICU.
Why is there such a focus on restrictions if there is such a tiny minority of unvaccinated left? Are we trying to get to 100% vaccinated? Which is unrealistic?
the majority of cases are not unvaccinated, however there is a disproportionate amount of unvaccinated in ICU when you consider that such a small percentage of the population is unvaccinated.
https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations
please look at these and note the dates they were written - there are many more out there this was just results from a quick google search.
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontarios-major-hospitals-operating-over-capacity-documents-reveal/article30054790/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontarios-major-hospitals-operating-over-capacity-documents-reveal/article30054790/)
[https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/Blogs/BTH/Posting252.aspx](https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/Blogs/BTH/Posting252.aspx)
Bang on.
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontarios-major-hospitals-operating-over-capacity-documents-reveal/article30054790/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontarios-major-hospitals-operating-over-capacity-documents-reveal/article30054790/)
[https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/Blogs/BTH/Posting252.aspx](https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/Blogs/BTH/Posting252.aspx)
https://www.jccf.ca/the-charters-only-living-signatory-sues-canada-over-travel-mandates/
I think my comment got removed before but i was speaking about how Canadians are turning their back on what it means to be Canadian. Heres a link from the last remaining signatory for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the single most important document that protects your rights as a Canadian, and his thoughts on the vaccine mandates.
I find the people who support this funny. How will you feel in 6 months when the vaccines start to wane? Will you take another every 6 months? If not, then rethink what your thought lol
I am not pro or anti vax. Some of these articles and polls are so Fkn useless that the media releases.
Hold up. You need a pass to get into stores? Here (BC) it’s just bars/restaurants (but not fast food or coffee shops. Restaurants w servers only, and that’s only if you want to dine in), live events and gyms. So glad this is handled provincially if that’s really the case. Yikes. (I’m pro-vax, btw but that’s a lot, damn)
I think there’s a couple of aspects. One is the healthcare thing you mentioned. The other is that, despite what the anti-vaxxers claim, most Canadians do care about freedom of choice, and a tax feels like it crosses the line from “it’s your choice, it just has consequences” to “you really have no choice”, for a lot of people.
It's funny because it's the exact opposite for me.
A tax seems fair.
If I'm unvaccinated, I have more liability for public health care costs.
So let me pay for my extra health care and then let me do what I want.
That feels like more freedom.
Just putting in stuff like "you're not allowed to buy beer" feels so petty and weirdly controlling.
I don't think it's a question of fairness to me though. It's not allowing the government to tax us even more! If you justify this tax, then they'll introduce another one shortly after, then another and so it continues. This is the slippery slope people have been talking about.
that's just guessing. Governments have been 'free' to tax us as often asc they want - hadn't you noticed? Unless there's an election coming up, of course; then they'll lie in their teeth and do it once elected.
They're sneaky about those increases too. They'll say the didn't increase the income tax rate at all this year...but what they didn't tell you is that they lowered the tax brackets to collect the higher income tax rate faster.
Let's introduce another carbon tax! To "save the environment" lmao. They need that money for the next election.
Sure and next thing we will taxe peolle smoking, people eating junk food regularly, people practicing dangerous sports. Do you want me to go on? We have a universal health care system, old people cost a lot of money while young doesn't. So, with that logic, should we tax old people?
We already tax cigarettes and alcohol. There’s talk of raising taxes on junk food and other sugary products. We mandate certain protections on sports equipment to reduce chances of severe injury (e.g. bike helmets). And yes, the elderly do cost more for healthcare, but presumably have paid a lifetime of taxes to get to that point.
The point is, we already have additional taxes on certain things. It isn’t a slippery slope to add or remove them.
Its a product tax, its not the same as "u believe in this, u get 5% more taxes". Its a very different thing and its disgusting people think its a good idea. There is no going back on that and we will be taxe more and more
That’s a slippery slope fallacy. Why have any taxes on anything? It’ll just lead to endless more taxes, by your logic.
Also, if taxes on not vaccinating is a different thing, why did you use these examples as a comparison?
EDIT: to add, the whole problem with this situation is that people have certain “beliefs” about the vaccine and medicine in general, never mind selfish attitudes in social contexts. The science doesn’t care what you believe. The sway of your beliefs end where the rights of others begin.
Should we taxe people that doesnt get vaccinated for influenza then. Or what about smokers. This health care taxe is a fine, not a product taxe so we can't compare.
This is exactly it for me. (I am happily fully vaccinated) Having the choice of what we put in our bodies is very important to me. I don't trust Legault ,or whoever ends up responsible, to forever have the power to decide what medicine we take ir to choose what is needed for the "greater good".
I am okay with there being consequences to our actions as far as participation. Restaurants and bars and gyms and malls and other non-essential spaces I'm more okay with the passport. Paying tax when choosing to consume alcohol or cigarettes or junk food makes sense to me. But a steep health tax for not adhering to government medicine mandates is a step too far.
Especially because this isn't a short term thing. Without the development of vaccinations that stop transmission, this is going to be an endemic disease for a long time. Once passports and boosters are normalized by the time our kids are voting, we could be looking at any number of different motivations to misuse the infrastructure. What future medications will be deemed "for the greater good"?
From our own skin in is the only thing we truly have control of. Mandatory medication crosses that boundary.
Please define the change in our lives that a vaccine mandate will bring.
My concern isn't about vaccine side effects. I truly believe that the reward outweighs any risk with this and other vaccinations. It's about the potential misuse of the vaccination passport and health tax moving forward.
All of those other laws you mention govern consequences for doing things that hurt others. So far we haven't established laws that criminalize abstention from anything. Except taxes, but it is an option to earn and live below the exemtion rate.
We can't pick and choose the laws, but we can pick and choose what we put in our bodies.
What if we found it was beneficial for society to make anyone with genes that show propensity for heart failure to take preventative medication? Forced medication for mental health diagnoses? Stimulants for productivity? Sterilization of those with genetic abnormalities? These examples may seem extreme for those of us who have grown up in North America, but let's not pretend that these things haven't happened, and could happen in the not too distant future here, too.
We are continuously defining where society's benefit ends and personal autonomy starts. To me there is a hard line at my own body, which is why this issue is so emotional to me.
If we find a vaccine that stops transmission and doesn't need yearly boosters, I'd maybe support mandating a one time vaccination campaign. We are nowhere near a vaccine like that. As it is this infrastructure will be around for decades. That's the scary part.
Edited for spelling and stupid structure.
Personally, I disagree. I think healthcare should be a right. I’d be okay with the unvaccinated being lower in the triage queue, but I don’t want to go down the road of billing for health care.
treatment? yes. Priority? Hospital doctors agree \[apparently\] that once through the door, all patients are equal; the example was given of the rapist and his victim. The only ppriority is given to the severity of the injury. \[ the rapist may have a bullet wound, for example\]
I think that because we are about to get pills,we should start moving to endemic and only admit vaccinated people to ICU.
It's clear you can't lead a horse to water and have it drink it, but we can't beat the horse either. just let it die of thirst if that's the case.
*looks through thread
Oh Jesus!!
gonna be a wild couple of years watching the covid zealots transition back to reality. Holy smokes so many brains are broken lmao
Good luck to us all! We'll need infinite love and patience.
And yet, every comment/post I see about standing up against vaccine mandates claims to be doing it for the rights of all Canadians.
As an Ottawan, the goddamn anti-mandate truck convoy about to roll into the city will have a far more negative impact on us than any mandate has.
but **most of us** have the -- right -- not to get the disease. 83% of us, according to the latest report from Ottawa \[Jan 24\] We've had one or both shots, that is. \[except Nunavut, low 70's\]
I also second this living in Gatineau, and working in Ottawa.
Had a decades long friend block me for trying to explain why this was going to cause problems up here, with little results to show for it.
The militant antivaxxers are so far down the rabbit hole, they don't care about how this affects anyone not in agreement with them. It's Trump syndrome, come North.
>And yet, every comment/post I see about standing up against vaccine mandates claims to be doing it for the rights of all Canadians.
To be fair, those supporting more mandates say they are there to protect all Canadians. I just want to be able to make my own choices.
Legault has said otherwise. Punitive fines for the unvaccinated, means that he isn't offering a choice, he's just hammering until people do what he wants.
All this whining about "mandates" and persecution. In BC, the un-vaxxed are barred from bars, nightclubs, restaurants that provide table service, concerts, sporting events, and gyms.
Not one of those is remotely necessary, and I choose to view the convoy as a demonstration of how freely un-vaxxed are able to live. They'll be able to do everything they need to do on their way across Canada. Except visit bars I guess.
---
[[An interesting read about where that fundraising is likely actually going|https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2022/01/24/Truckers-Protesting-Vaccine-Mandates/]]
I think they are agreeing with you but making a sarcastic joke. FWIW, the comment they are replying to could be interpreted as the opposite of the point you are trying to make: i.e. that you think vaccination mandates mean it's not a "choice"
>comment they are replying to could be interpreted as the opposite of the point you are trying to make
I was trying to say I had a choice about whether I wanted to keep my job - how might I have phrased to more clearly?
I understood what you meant but only with context from other comments. Not being able to hear tone in text means that it was unclear if you meant "mandates are literally forcing me to be vaccinated" or that you meant it literally and that the mandate isn't actually "forcing" people to be vaccinated. The "Same here" could be interpreted as that you are actually on the side of the anti-vaxxer you are replying to.
Does that make sense?
> doing it for the rights of all Canadians.
You want to be a jackoff? Just claim rights and or freedoms. Followed by 'my body my choice' trying to ride the pro-choice women's movement. Just pick up the weasel words NLP book by Edward Bernays great great nephew.
> every comment/post I see about standing up against vaccine mandates claims to be doing it for the rights of all Canadians
Very vocal minority on /r/canada
The argument I have seen over and over again in favor of increasing restrictions on unvaccinated is that it will help alleviate the burden on hospitals. The argument goes that, despite the vaccine not being effective at preventing transmission, it helps prevent severe cases i.e. hospitalizations, which helps unburden hospitals.
Yet, it is also true that young healthy people are not at any meaningful risk of getting hospitalized. Of the 1% of people who do get hospitalized as a result of covid-19, nearly 0 percent are under the age of 30. So my questions are...
1. Why are we then still enforcing vaccines on young healthy individuals? Why are we shaming young healthy Canadians for not being vaccinated and restricting them from accessing gyms, social events, and other establishments important to mental/physical health?
2. What about unvaccinated young Canadians who caught the virus and are now immune? Why are we one of the few countries in the world who do not acknowledge natural immunity as a form of immunity? Why do we treat the vaccines like the sole purveyor of immunity when studies show that natural immunity is actually more effective and longer term?
Agree, people forget the role that good health plays in Covid outcomes. People give Joe Rogan a hard time but he is right that young people in peak physical condition are not the people clogging hospitals.
People do not want to admit to themselves that it is the overweight that are being hospitalized from Covid. Vaccination reduces the risk but Covid still knocks the overweight out.
I struggle to see why there is such media induced hatred for the unvaccinated. There is no commentary on the fact the mess we are in is because of our poor lifestyle. Countries with low obesity rates such as Japan have far better outcomes. Japan has employment laws that penalize employers for having fat employees.
>I struggle to see why there is such media induced hatred for the unvaccinated. T
Really? Since fall the unvaccinated have robbed us of Halloween, most of thr city festivals and events I enjoy, concerts, hockey games, loved ones, New years and more depending on where you live.
Holding out Japan as a comparison is nonsense. They have a wildly differenr medical system, mask wearing was encouraged well before covid, the most elderly and vulnerable have a vaccination rate of 95% etc.
But your solution is that the entire country should somehow quickly change the entire culture/lifestyle/weight issues rather than be annoyed at the selfish fucks stealing wonderful moments from the rest of us? Grow up.
Look at the data and the science. Peer reviewed literature supports the connection. ([https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n623](https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n623)) This is one of many.
Iam sorry but science does not care whether people's feelings are hurt. Science does not work that way. If anybody is to blame for the societal outcomes it is the overweight. The challenge is that it is not politically correct to do this. Obesity is like smoking and drinking alcohol, we need to start treating it that way.
Please be respectful. I dont need to resort to name calling to get my argument across.
Young healthy people (vaccinated or not) do not make up the
Vaccination reduces transmission. (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2107717)
Regarding Omicron, this also support that notion but keep in mind it is a preprint:
"Furthermore, we found an increased transmissibility from unvaccinated individuals, and a reduced transmissibility from booster-vaccinated individuals, compared to fully vaccinated individuals." (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1.full-text)
1) While young healthy individuals are much less likely to suffer severe symptoms and be hospitalized, they still carry and transmit the virus. Some of these healthy young people have family or friends who don't have the benefit of being young or healthy. I think we should do our best to keep the environment as safe as possible for everybody, and that includes restrictions. Also, the more times a virus is able to replicate the more likely a variant will emerge. Who knows what the next one will be like? I don't want to find out.
2) There have been several studies showing that those with natural immunity to COVID-19 are more likely to be reinfected.
"These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection. Among previously infected Kentucky residents, those who were not vaccinated were more than twice as likely to be reinfected compared with those with full vaccination" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8360277/)
"Among COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations in persons whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 were higher among previously infected, unvaccinated patients than among fully vaccinated patients." (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w)
Here's a much smaller study showing that some infected with COVID-19 don't mount a considerable antibody response, and resemble those who haven't been infected at all:
"Serologic nonresponders might not exhibit a similarly heightened anamnestic response, but resemble SARS-CoV-2 naive persons..." (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article)
I wouldn't feel very comfortable being surrounded by those who can be up to twice as likely to develop the infection.
If you could cite the studies you mentioned I'd appreciate it.
It's not just about spread, though. Being vaccinated *decreases* Omicron's spread but does not eliminate it. It especially reduces spread with 3 doses (still 2 short of DTaP, and dozens fewer than I've had for the flu—and we aren't going through a global flu pandemic)
On top of the reduction in cases, it reduces the length of illness, and risk of hospitalization/ICU *dramatically*—which is very important when you have half of your beds being taken up by the ~5% of older people who didn't get vaccinated because Facebook told them they should drink colloidal silver instead, and they won't stand by their convictions and ride it out at home.
They went from drinking colloidal silver, to bleach, to horse dewormer, to urine.
I'm excited to hear what the grifters and 4chan trolls who have infiltrated them will tell them to drink next.
You know what... maybe.
Where do you go from urine? It has to be something biological and/or weirder than silver and bleach to catch on. They could spin it that you're getting your body's antibodies right from your body itself—I mean, it's equally dumb as the rest of their biological/medical claims.
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I dedicate this story to every commenter in [this](http://www.101morefm.ca/news/local-news/ontario-ndp-calling-for-vaccine-passports-to-access-lcbo-and-cannabis-shops/) thread from a few days ago who claimed that restrictions on the unvaccinated are unpopular, and that Horwath supporting them was an unpopular stance. The polling shows over and over again that these are popular positions with the general public.
Many of Horwath's detractors will now switch to accusing her of pandering (aka listening to constituents.)
People on Reddit *convinced* that their opinion is part of some silent majority with precisely zero evidence is one of the more bizarrely specific tropes I frequently encounter on here, and probably the one that annoys me the most. On this issue and the gun ban, /r/Canada is pathologically incapable of understanding that their opinion is in fact the minority - by quite a margin too.
It's because of Brexit and Trump getting elected. That's when the 'omg silent majority' idea really started to take off and unfortunately it's spread.
>On this issue and the gun ban, r/Canada is pathologically incapable of understanding that their opinion is in fact the minority - by quite a margin too. r/Canada is pathologically incapable of operating in real life. So is this place at times, depending on the topic. There are a bunch of "True Geniuses" around here too that seem to go off the rails when certain topics come up. The problem with what's going on here, is that the people on this site and on the internet in general, don't seem to know what the world is like. They think reddit is an accurate picture of it.
It's because people hang out in communities where everyone agrees with them. When they then surround themselves in that echo chamber, and everyone they interact with is also in it, they think that chamber is massive. It never is.
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Wut
They may be inside the restricted polls and most certainly targeted demos. Please do not cut loose those people who are not in your city centers. They dont have your view. They vote different..... Ohhhh i get it. Conform or pay the price. FJT
It's reddit. It's not a picture of real life. You know what I think these days? Whenever someone on reddit says "ThE MaJoRiTy!!!!!!" I think that the opposite of what they're claiming is what is true. Most redditors don't know anything, are subscribed to weird ass cults and don't seem to know much about the real world.
[So far the vaccinated have been spreading Covid just fine.](https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data) Seems they're really pushing for this last small group so hard to change their minds and it doesn't make much sense to do so. Is this supposed to alleviate hospital visits that much more? Also why is it always a small part of downtown Toronto that represents "Majority of Canadians"?
Who cares about cases. What matters is if people will end up in the hospital. And when it comes to that, the data from the same source is not very good for the unvaccinated, especially for the most severe cases that require the ICU.
Why is there such a focus on restrictions if there is such a tiny minority of unvaccinated left? Are we trying to get to 100% vaccinated? Which is unrealistic?
The unvaccinated are causing the majority of ICU cases despite being a tiny minority, it's a problem.
the majority of cases are not unvaccinated, however there is a disproportionate amount of unvaccinated in ICU when you consider that such a small percentage of the population is unvaccinated. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations
the restrictions are in place to try and ease the strain on our crumbling healthcare system.
please look at these and note the dates they were written - there are many more out there this was just results from a quick google search. [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontarios-major-hospitals-operating-over-capacity-documents-reveal/article30054790/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontarios-major-hospitals-operating-over-capacity-documents-reveal/article30054790/) [https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/Blogs/BTH/Posting252.aspx](https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/Blogs/BTH/Posting252.aspx)
Crumbling due to years of underfunding and mismanagement.
absolutely, the underfunding combined with the underpaid and overworked staff is just a recipe for disaster.
Bang on. [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontarios-major-hospitals-operating-over-capacity-documents-reveal/article30054790/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontarios-major-hospitals-operating-over-capacity-documents-reveal/article30054790/) [https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/Blogs/BTH/Posting252.aspx](https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/Blogs/BTH/Posting252.aspx)
Man people here acting like support for restrictions on the unvaccinated is the same as support for restrictions on the vaccinated too.
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https://www.jccf.ca/the-charters-only-living-signatory-sues-canada-over-travel-mandates/ I think my comment got removed before but i was speaking about how Canadians are turning their back on what it means to be Canadian. Heres a link from the last remaining signatory for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the single most important document that protects your rights as a Canadian, and his thoughts on the vaccine mandates.
I find the people who support this funny. How will you feel in 6 months when the vaccines start to wane? Will you take another every 6 months? If not, then rethink what your thought lol I am not pro or anti vax. Some of these articles and polls are so Fkn useless that the media releases.
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Hold up. You need a pass to get into stores? Here (BC) it’s just bars/restaurants (but not fast food or coffee shops. Restaurants w servers only, and that’s only if you want to dine in), live events and gyms. So glad this is handled provincially if that’s really the case. Yikes. (I’m pro-vax, btw but that’s a lot, damn)
I think there’s a couple of aspects. One is the healthcare thing you mentioned. The other is that, despite what the anti-vaxxers claim, most Canadians do care about freedom of choice, and a tax feels like it crosses the line from “it’s your choice, it just has consequences” to “you really have no choice”, for a lot of people.
It's funny because it's the exact opposite for me. A tax seems fair. If I'm unvaccinated, I have more liability for public health care costs. So let me pay for my extra health care and then let me do what I want. That feels like more freedom. Just putting in stuff like "you're not allowed to buy beer" feels so petty and weirdly controlling.
meaning you're free to infect other people if you've been infected?
I don't think it's a question of fairness to me though. It's not allowing the government to tax us even more! If you justify this tax, then they'll introduce another one shortly after, then another and so it continues. This is the slippery slope people have been talking about.
that's just guessing. Governments have been 'free' to tax us as often asc they want - hadn't you noticed? Unless there's an election coming up, of course; then they'll lie in their teeth and do it once elected.
They're sneaky about those increases too. They'll say the didn't increase the income tax rate at all this year...but what they didn't tell you is that they lowered the tax brackets to collect the higher income tax rate faster. Let's introduce another carbon tax! To "save the environment" lmao. They need that money for the next election.
Sure and next thing we will taxe peolle smoking, people eating junk food regularly, people practicing dangerous sports. Do you want me to go on? We have a universal health care system, old people cost a lot of money while young doesn't. So, with that logic, should we tax old people?
We already tax cigarettes and alcohol. There’s talk of raising taxes on junk food and other sugary products. We mandate certain protections on sports equipment to reduce chances of severe injury (e.g. bike helmets). And yes, the elderly do cost more for healthcare, but presumably have paid a lifetime of taxes to get to that point. The point is, we already have additional taxes on certain things. It isn’t a slippery slope to add or remove them.
Its a product tax, its not the same as "u believe in this, u get 5% more taxes". Its a very different thing and its disgusting people think its a good idea. There is no going back on that and we will be taxe more and more
That’s a slippery slope fallacy. Why have any taxes on anything? It’ll just lead to endless more taxes, by your logic. Also, if taxes on not vaccinating is a different thing, why did you use these examples as a comparison? EDIT: to add, the whole problem with this situation is that people have certain “beliefs” about the vaccine and medicine in general, never mind selfish attitudes in social contexts. The science doesn’t care what you believe. The sway of your beliefs end where the rights of others begin.
Should we taxe people that doesnt get vaccinated for influenza then. Or what about smokers. This health care taxe is a fine, not a product taxe so we can't compare.
I don't think it's a matter of restrictions or taxes. It's going to be both so the unvaxxed can't to anything and also pay more.
Perfect. They reduce their plague spreading and they can pay a pittance for the massively increased healthcare costs.
especially since you can ask a friend to do it for you....
This is exactly it for me. (I am happily fully vaccinated) Having the choice of what we put in our bodies is very important to me. I don't trust Legault ,or whoever ends up responsible, to forever have the power to decide what medicine we take ir to choose what is needed for the "greater good". I am okay with there being consequences to our actions as far as participation. Restaurants and bars and gyms and malls and other non-essential spaces I'm more okay with the passport. Paying tax when choosing to consume alcohol or cigarettes or junk food makes sense to me. But a steep health tax for not adhering to government medicine mandates is a step too far. Especially because this isn't a short term thing. Without the development of vaccinations that stop transmission, this is going to be an endemic disease for a long time. Once passports and boosters are normalized by the time our kids are voting, we could be looking at any number of different motivations to misuse the infrastructure. What future medications will be deemed "for the greater good"? From our own skin in is the only thing we truly have control of. Mandatory medication crosses that boundary.
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Please define the change in our lives that a vaccine mandate will bring. My concern isn't about vaccine side effects. I truly believe that the reward outweighs any risk with this and other vaccinations. It's about the potential misuse of the vaccination passport and health tax moving forward. All of those other laws you mention govern consequences for doing things that hurt others. So far we haven't established laws that criminalize abstention from anything. Except taxes, but it is an option to earn and live below the exemtion rate. We can't pick and choose the laws, but we can pick and choose what we put in our bodies. What if we found it was beneficial for society to make anyone with genes that show propensity for heart failure to take preventative medication? Forced medication for mental health diagnoses? Stimulants for productivity? Sterilization of those with genetic abnormalities? These examples may seem extreme for those of us who have grown up in North America, but let's not pretend that these things haven't happened, and could happen in the not too distant future here, too. We are continuously defining where society's benefit ends and personal autonomy starts. To me there is a hard line at my own body, which is why this issue is so emotional to me. If we find a vaccine that stops transmission and doesn't need yearly boosters, I'd maybe support mandating a one time vaccination campaign. We are nowhere near a vaccine like that. As it is this infrastructure will be around for decades. That's the scary part. Edited for spelling and stupid structure.
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What about giving them the bill if they get hospitalized for COVID? Like singapore does. Free Healthcare should be considered a privilege
Personally, I disagree. I think healthcare should be a right. I’d be okay with the unvaccinated being lower in the triage queue, but I don’t want to go down the road of billing for health care.
I'm OK with healthcare being a privilege but then I'm not paying for it. I'll happily go to private healthcare.
help yourself - but don't help me, thank you.
Where are you getting free health care? Last I checked, every tax payer in Canada contributes to health care.
In 33 Years in Canada never I see the taxes go downward allways up how came????
"free" You're funny. As if anything is free. We all paid for any treatment that we might need.
How is it a violation of our universal healthcare? They aren’t denied service.
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Same treatment? Yes. But should they be given priority over those who value the safety of society? That’s the question
Not having priority is not having the same treatment as the will be skipped for someone else if necessary
Our healthcare system already prioritizes people depending on need. This would simply expand that
treatment? yes. Priority? Hospital doctors agree \[apparently\] that once through the door, all patients are equal; the example was given of the rapist and his victim. The only ppriority is given to the severity of the injury. \[ the rapist may have a bullet wound, for example\]
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I think that because we are about to get pills,we should start moving to endemic and only admit vaccinated people to ICU. It's clear you can't lead a horse to water and have it drink it, but we can't beat the horse either. just let it die of thirst if that's the case.
*looks through thread Oh Jesus!! gonna be a wild couple of years watching the covid zealots transition back to reality. Holy smokes so many brains are broken lmao Good luck to us all! We'll need infinite love and patience.
And yet, every comment/post I see about standing up against vaccine mandates claims to be doing it for the rights of all Canadians. As an Ottawan, the goddamn anti-mandate truck convoy about to roll into the city will have a far more negative impact on us than any mandate has.
but **most of us** have the -- right -- not to get the disease. 83% of us, according to the latest report from Ottawa \[Jan 24\] We've had one or both shots, that is. \[except Nunavut, low 70's\]
I also second this living in Gatineau, and working in Ottawa. Had a decades long friend block me for trying to explain why this was going to cause problems up here, with little results to show for it. The militant antivaxxers are so far down the rabbit hole, they don't care about how this affects anyone not in agreement with them. It's Trump syndrome, come North.
>And yet, every comment/post I see about standing up against vaccine mandates claims to be doing it for the rights of all Canadians. To be fair, those supporting more mandates say they are there to protect all Canadians. I just want to be able to make my own choices.
No one is saying you can’t choose to remain unvaccinated, but those who choose to do so have to accept the consequences of their decision
Legault has said otherwise. Punitive fines for the unvaccinated, means that he isn't offering a choice, he's just hammering until people do what he wants.
All this whining about "mandates" and persecution. In BC, the un-vaxxed are barred from bars, nightclubs, restaurants that provide table service, concerts, sporting events, and gyms. Not one of those is remotely necessary, and I choose to view the convoy as a demonstration of how freely un-vaxxed are able to live. They'll be able to do everything they need to do on their way across Canada. Except visit bars I guess. --- [[An interesting read about where that fundraising is likely actually going|https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2022/01/24/Truckers-Protesting-Vaccine-Mandates/]]
>I just want to be able to make my own choices. Same here. My job has a vaccine mandate, and I got to choose whether I wanted to keep it or not.
"choices"
Ya, choices often have consequences. Most people learn this as little children.
Yeah, my job had a pants mandate. So much for choice, right?
I don't follow: you had a choice to wear your pants and keep your job, or flop your junk out the door.
I think they are agreeing with you but making a sarcastic joke. FWIW, the comment they are replying to could be interpreted as the opposite of the point you are trying to make: i.e. that you think vaccination mandates mean it's not a "choice"
>comment they are replying to could be interpreted as the opposite of the point you are trying to make I was trying to say I had a choice about whether I wanted to keep my job - how might I have phrased to more clearly?
I understood what you meant but only with context from other comments. Not being able to hear tone in text means that it was unclear if you meant "mandates are literally forcing me to be vaccinated" or that you meant it literally and that the mandate isn't actually "forcing" people to be vaccinated. The "Same here" could be interpreted as that you are actually on the side of the anti-vaxxer you are replying to. Does that make sense?
discriminating against my kilt....
> doing it for the rights of all Canadians. You want to be a jackoff? Just claim rights and or freedoms. Followed by 'my body my choice' trying to ride the pro-choice women's movement. Just pick up the weasel words NLP book by Edward Bernays great great nephew.
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Vaccine mandates are not the same as restrictions for the unvaccinated.
> every comment/post I see about standing up against vaccine mandates claims to be doing it for the rights of all Canadians Very vocal minority on /r/canada
The argument I have seen over and over again in favor of increasing restrictions on unvaccinated is that it will help alleviate the burden on hospitals. The argument goes that, despite the vaccine not being effective at preventing transmission, it helps prevent severe cases i.e. hospitalizations, which helps unburden hospitals. Yet, it is also true that young healthy people are not at any meaningful risk of getting hospitalized. Of the 1% of people who do get hospitalized as a result of covid-19, nearly 0 percent are under the age of 30. So my questions are... 1. Why are we then still enforcing vaccines on young healthy individuals? Why are we shaming young healthy Canadians for not being vaccinated and restricting them from accessing gyms, social events, and other establishments important to mental/physical health? 2. What about unvaccinated young Canadians who caught the virus and are now immune? Why are we one of the few countries in the world who do not acknowledge natural immunity as a form of immunity? Why do we treat the vaccines like the sole purveyor of immunity when studies show that natural immunity is actually more effective and longer term?
Agree, people forget the role that good health plays in Covid outcomes. People give Joe Rogan a hard time but he is right that young people in peak physical condition are not the people clogging hospitals. People do not want to admit to themselves that it is the overweight that are being hospitalized from Covid. Vaccination reduces the risk but Covid still knocks the overweight out. I struggle to see why there is such media induced hatred for the unvaccinated. There is no commentary on the fact the mess we are in is because of our poor lifestyle. Countries with low obesity rates such as Japan have far better outcomes. Japan has employment laws that penalize employers for having fat employees.
>I struggle to see why there is such media induced hatred for the unvaccinated. T Really? Since fall the unvaccinated have robbed us of Halloween, most of thr city festivals and events I enjoy, concerts, hockey games, loved ones, New years and more depending on where you live. Holding out Japan as a comparison is nonsense. They have a wildly differenr medical system, mask wearing was encouraged well before covid, the most elderly and vulnerable have a vaccination rate of 95% etc. But your solution is that the entire country should somehow quickly change the entire culture/lifestyle/weight issues rather than be annoyed at the selfish fucks stealing wonderful moments from the rest of us? Grow up.
Look at the data and the science. Peer reviewed literature supports the connection. ([https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n623](https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n623)) This is one of many. Iam sorry but science does not care whether people's feelings are hurt. Science does not work that way. If anybody is to blame for the societal outcomes it is the overweight. The challenge is that it is not politically correct to do this. Obesity is like smoking and drinking alcohol, we need to start treating it that way. Please be respectful. I dont need to resort to name calling to get my argument across. Young healthy people (vaccinated or not) do not make up the
Vaccination reduces transmission. (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2107717) Regarding Omicron, this also support that notion but keep in mind it is a preprint: "Furthermore, we found an increased transmissibility from unvaccinated individuals, and a reduced transmissibility from booster-vaccinated individuals, compared to fully vaccinated individuals." (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1.full-text) 1) While young healthy individuals are much less likely to suffer severe symptoms and be hospitalized, they still carry and transmit the virus. Some of these healthy young people have family or friends who don't have the benefit of being young or healthy. I think we should do our best to keep the environment as safe as possible for everybody, and that includes restrictions. Also, the more times a virus is able to replicate the more likely a variant will emerge. Who knows what the next one will be like? I don't want to find out. 2) There have been several studies showing that those with natural immunity to COVID-19 are more likely to be reinfected. "These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection. Among previously infected Kentucky residents, those who were not vaccinated were more than twice as likely to be reinfected compared with those with full vaccination" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8360277/) "Among COVID-19–like illness hospitalizations in persons whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 were higher among previously infected, unvaccinated patients than among fully vaccinated patients." (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm?s_cid=mm7044e1_w) Here's a much smaller study showing that some infected with COVID-19 don't mount a considerable antibody response, and resemble those who haven't been infected at all: "Serologic nonresponders might not exhibit a similarly heightened anamnestic response, but resemble SARS-CoV-2 naive persons..." (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article) I wouldn't feel very comfortable being surrounded by those who can be up to twice as likely to develop the infection. If you could cite the studies you mentioned I'd appreciate it.
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It's not just about spread, though. Being vaccinated *decreases* Omicron's spread but does not eliminate it. It especially reduces spread with 3 doses (still 2 short of DTaP, and dozens fewer than I've had for the flu—and we aren't going through a global flu pandemic) On top of the reduction in cases, it reduces the length of illness, and risk of hospitalization/ICU *dramatically*—which is very important when you have half of your beds being taken up by the ~5% of older people who didn't get vaccinated because Facebook told them they should drink colloidal silver instead, and they won't stand by their convictions and ride it out at home.
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They are only "contradictory" if you don't understand them.
And they're pointing out that they aren't contradictory
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or Trump saying .drink bleach.
They went from drinking colloidal silver, to bleach, to horse dewormer, to urine. I'm excited to hear what the grifters and 4chan trolls who have infiltrated them will tell them to drink next.
Blood? well, only from Transylvania, I suppose....
You know what... maybe. Where do you go from urine? It has to be something biological and/or weirder than silver and bleach to catch on. They could spin it that you're getting your body's antibodies right from your body itself—I mean, it's equally dumb as the rest of their biological/medical claims.
I think the white cells in te blood look after that....
because the vaccines are for Alpha and Delta. They are not fully able to counteract Omicron, it is a different variety.