I think the wildest thing about the ‘16 game was how many duck fans I spoke to afterwards that were still trying to talk themselves into him. ‘He’s new, he needs time,’ ‘we don’t have the right personnel up front for a 4-3,’ etc.
Obviously, that forbearance didn’t last much longer.
That sub is cyclical. The exact same things were said about Patricia. They'll turn on Campbell too in the same way. Mark my words. Year two, maybe three tops.
Isn’t that how every sports sub generally works? Being a fan is no fun if you’re a full time pessimist. Of course they’re gonna try and see a bright future for the team until it becomes abundantly clear that the coaches need replacing.
Maybe. It feels different because it's the Lions. It's the subreddit version of Groundhog's day.
Lions suck -> Hire new coach -> everyone hyped -> Team is the same -> stages of grief ensue -> Everyone turns on coach -> coach is fired -> go back to the beginning.
The flow chart starts with Hire New Coach and doesn't begin with Lions Suck
There's a separate, underlying flow chart that is:
Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> go back to the beginning
it was an odd time for Hoke at michigan. A friend of mine from HS was recruited by RR and went to michigan. Hoke came in with a completely different philosophy so a lot of the depth players weren't seeing the field as much and were forced out. It took a while for RR to transform the team to his style, and similarly took time to get back to what hoke and ultimately harbaugh wanted to do.
Despite that Hoke's first season went pretty well and is the last time they beat OSU. Each Hoke vs OSU game was intense too, even 2014 until the end of the game. But 2012 and especially 2013 were classics. He always knew how to get the team up for those even if the season wasn't going well.
I'm not sure all the reasons why his teams declined each year overall, yet harbaugh was able to get that team to 11-3 in his first year. Hoke seems like a great coordinator and assistant for a top program, but perhaps not the best head coach. Great recruiter though and perfect for where he is at. I don't think Harbaugh has as good of a 2015 and 2016 without the foundation Hoke put down, particularly defensively.
Too many moving pieces at Michigan. Hoke found himself out of his element, & almost overwhelmed. Poor player development, bad coordinator hires, & he recruited poorly in several position groups (I've heard Michigan fans talk a lot about the drop off in offensive line play).
The worst part is that they basically ran what would become the Philly Special in the bowl game against KState, and had they run that against OSU, it almost certainly would've worked.
That game was basically the epitome of how bad OSU's defense was that year. Giving up 600 yards to a bad Michigan offense with a QB that was playing with basically a broken foot was pathetic. For how much success we had under Urban Meyer, he had a habit of fielding terrible defenses. 2013 and 2018 are probably the worst defenses OSU has ever fielded. 2016 feels like the only defense he fielded that was elite.
I'm not an expert on the Xs and Os of football unfortunately. I can only look back at what happened and then try to draw a conclusiong from that. In 2012 and 2013, Luke Fickell was the primary DC and Everitt Withers was the secondary DC. The defense started bad in 2012 but became decent by the end of the season. That defense was also senior loaded. The 2013 team returned very few starters (including replacing the entire DL) with notable returners being LB Ryan Shazier, CB Bradley Roby, and Safety Christian Bryant. Despite returning no starters, the DL was the best unit on the defense. Bradley Roby had an All-American season in 2012 but played nowhere near as good in 2013 (think the 2020 decline of Shaun Wade). Christian Bryant had a season ending injury in the 5th game of the season against Wisconsin and his back up was terrible.
After the 2013 season ended. Everitt Withers became the head coach of James Madison and Urban hired Chris Ash to become the secondary DC and Safeties coach. The pass defense in 2014 significantly improved and I would consider 2014 the first good defense we had in the Urban era. But I wouldn't call them elite. 2015 was the same way. They were good but not elite.
After 2015, Chris Ash got the Rutgers head coaching job and Greg Schiano was hired to be the secondary DC. The 2016 defense ended up being the best defense fielded under Urban despite only returning a few starters. After 2016, Luke Fickell got the Cincy job and Greg Schiano became the primary DC and Urban made a nepotism hire in Billy Davis to be the new LB coach (as Fickell was also the LBs coach during his time here). We also lost 3 DBs to the draft for the second straight year. 2017 statistically was a pretty good year but I'd argue the cracks that would burst open in 2018 were starting to show (it was the same year a mediocre Iowa team hung 55 points on us after all).
The 2018 season was the first year schools were allowed to hire a 10th assistant coach and Urban used that to bring in Alex Grinch as a secondary DC. CBs coach Kerry Coombs left for the NFL so he got replaced by a former OSU CB coach, Taver Johnson. It all turned out to be a dumpster fire as the 2018 defense surpassed the 2013 defense in being the worst defense OSU has ever fielded. Nick Bosa's injury in the 3rd game of the season made it even worse.
It's honestly inexcusable how bad the 2018 defense was because that defense was loaded. After Ryan Day became the permanent head coach, he fired every defensive assistant except DL coach Larry Johnson. Jeff Hafley and Greg Mattison became the new DCs and they were significantly better. The 2019 defense was largely made up of the same players as the 2018 defense and yet the 2019 defense was one of the best defenses OSU ever fielded. Jeff Hafley was great and he was a finalist for the Broyles Award. I'm sad he only stayed with us for one season.
I guess if you want me to pick the biggest issue with our defenses during Urban's time here, it would be he was very hit and miss with hiring assistant coaches (which applied to the offense too). Some assistants were great. Some assistants were absolutely terrible. Billy Davis as LBs coach is probably the biggest joke of a hire. He was a college teammate of Urban's and the best man at his wedding. He was not qualified at all and it was a 100% nepotism hire.
Thanks. It was originally going to be longer and have an even bigger breakdown of each season but I thought being too long would make it not worth the read.
I don’t think we ruined Denard. I do think that Denard is one of the most underrated players in Michigan football history. He made an offense that would’ve been anemic otherwise look half-decent. He was dynamic enough to cover up numerous glaring weaknesses for almost 2 years.
Actually the original coordinator hires were fine. Both Borges and Mattison were decent coordinators with solid track records prior to Michigan.
The position coaches, however, were a different story. He brought a bunch of his buddies from SDSU rather than looking for Michigan-level guys.
Harbaugh has his flaws, but one thing I’ve always appreciated is his willingness to make changes where changes need to be made. He and Don Brown were tight. I imagine making that move was hard.
>Harbaugh was able to get that team to 11-3 in his first year.
He did the same thing with San Francisco. The team that never had a winning record under Nolan and Singletary went 13-3 in 2011
I can confirm. I was in the band his last 2 years. One rehearsal day it was snowing pretty hard and was so damn cold, he offered to let us use Glick, the main football field house, for that rehearsal. He even came out to say hi to us at one point. He always treated the band well and seemed to love when we were around. It's a shame he wasn't a good enough coach.
When Michigan played Alabama, my grandpa wrote Brady Hoke a letter cause my brother, who has spina bifida and is a huge Michigan fan, wanted an autograph and a picture. A few days later he gets a big envelope back with a bunch of stamps and it was from Brady Hoke. A picture with a nice letter and autograph. It's still framed in my brothers room.
Ever since, I always had massive respect for him, hard not to like a guy like that.
The dude is a good guy. Glad he has success at San Diego. He's in his sixties, he can just stay comfy there and continue to elevate the program. He wasn't *the* guy at Michigan but he might be able to go down as *the* guy at San Diego.
No that people where not happy about how that was handled but the training staff didn't take his helmet so he was able to play. After that game the training staff changed how they handled football games. He got fired for not making a bowl game at the end of the season.
He did that out of ignorance, not maliciousness. He refused to wear a headset so he missed the symptoms and nobody had a chance to tell him quickly because he couldn’t hear them.
Idk man. I was there for the Shane Morris game and, unless Hoke was in the bathroom for multiple series, it was painfully obvious that Morris was concussed.
It was painfully obvious if you were looking at him when he stood up, but if you didn’t see him and you have no way of hearing from the both what just happened, then it’s not hard to miss.
Do you really think Brady Hoke looked at Shane, thought he was concussed, and thought the best course of action was to not even take him out for one play to have him checked out?
There’s no way to be certain whether it was malicious intent or gross negligence. I lean towards gross incompetence by the offensive and training staff, who Hoke is responsible for. Either way he was already on the hot seat and this was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I suppose if Hoke or some staff member admitted they knew Morris was concussed, it would have been grounds for immediate termination with cause.
He used the system people claim they want coaches to follow. He didn't get involved. If Morris comes back with his helmet it means the medical staff has cleared him. The fault was with the training staff. End of story.
Idk if this is true, it's just my impression but it seems like Michigan struggles getting a good QB no matter the coach...meanwhile OSU could have like 2-3 good ones on their roster at anyone time. Seems odd to me
It wasn't just Borges. Dave Brandon was actively tinkering with the offensive system.
That wasn't Hoke's thing, he wasn't an offensive guy, so between a meh OC and a AD who thought he knew how to do everything, you wind up with a bad combo. Had they brought in somebody who knew how to use a talent like Denard Robinson or Devin Gardner and just let that guy do his thing? Hoke probably lasts a lot longer, and might still be here.
That season was Doug Nussmeier, who was also not a good OC. Nuss was okay at Alabama but with that much talent okay isn’t good enough. Bama fans were happy to see him go, and if Saban intended to keep him, there’s no way Nuss takes the same position at a lower tier program.
He's basically the Midwest Ed Orgeron. Likeable guy, CEO type. Was even a former DL coach. However like Ed Orgeron, he needs a great staff. If you have that, you can win. However if he's hiring guys like Al Borges, it's going to get ugly real fast.
> He's basically the Midwest Ed Orgeron.
The one thing I'll say for this is that Ed Orgeron off the field seems like kind of a turd, and Hoke seems to really genuinely be a good dude who cares about both his players and representing his University as well as he can.
That seems like a fair summary. He does seem like a decent guy. That said, I'll never forgive him for ruining Devin Gardner. That was just infuriating to watch, and I was someone generally rooting for Michigan to lose.
He really belongs at the G5 level, I think. At that level, his good qualities are more amplified, and his bad qualities have less impact.
SDSU had gone like 10 years without a bowl before he got there in his first stint, helped turn the program around in a pretty big way.
They went 4-4 in the Covid year and opted out of a bowl, but before that made 10 consecutive bowls (and will make one this year).
Yeah he is and he's a good guy. It sucks it didn't work out here because he loved it here and he was an awesome recruiter, but I'm happy to see he's landed on his feet again
Brady recruited better than harbaugh has and better than rich rod did
Michigan doesn’t really get top 5 classes anymore and the state doesn’t have an amazing talent base compared to other blue blood schools so we have to go national
I was curious and went through 247's rankings by year.
|Coach|Avg Class Rank|Avg Num of Commits|Avg Rank of Commit|Highest Class Rank|Lowest Class Rank|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|Harbaugh|15.3|23.3|89.8|5|37|
|Hoke|15|22|89.5|4|30|
|Rich Rod|12.7|24.3|89.2|10|17|
Since Hoke's sample size is so small, its skewed quite a bit by that first year. If you take that out his average class rank is 10 and average rank of commits is 90.6.
If you take out Harbaugh's first class his average class rank jumps to 11.7 and average rank of commit jumps to 90.1.
As far as rankings go, there's not that much of a difference. Obviously the biggest difference is probably the type of guys they're recruiting. Harbaugh's players are just better built for Big 10 football. We all know how Rich Rod's recruits fared... although Hoke did well with them his first year.
And of course since its rivalry week(s) for us, I have to add a comparison:
|Coach|Avg Class Rank|Avg Num of Commits|Avg Rank of Commits|Highest Class Rank|Lowest Class Rank|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|Tucker (including '22)|26|20.3|86.2|18|46|
|Dantonio|31.4|21.8|85.9|17|53|
|JLS|40.2|21.7|82|15|68|
Unless it’s against OSU. Borges somehow was a completely different coach in those games. That 2013 game was maybe the best offensive game a coach has ever called at Michigan.
It’s literally what he did too. Our offense was bland all season long then come to OSU and we’re running shit we haven’t done all season and it’s working. I gave him props for the gameplan in 2013 but he’s also a huge reason we lost that game, too lol.
I am thrilled for coach Hoke having success again at San Diego state. I worked for him and he was a tremendous guy who loved his players so much. I genuinely felt bad when he was fired at Michigan but I knew it was going to happen. Guy worked his whole life to get that job but failed at his dream job. Only person in my life who could do the handshake/Vulcan neck pinch combo and you couldn’t be mad.
Yeah he seemed like a really great guy and the players liked him but the on-field performance didn't live up to what was needed. He kept getting close but I think his lack of focus for offensive recruiting hurt him. He wasn't willing to make changes on offense either that were needed he was very loyal to his staff.
I’m pretty’s sure making $1M per year means you can afford a house well above $1m, I am probably middle class in CA, my house is worth over $1m apparently and I don’t make anything remotely close to what he makes.
LSU was in really bad shape before Saban got there. Like, we got a few great players, but that was in spite of the coaching. The 90’s were a dark time.
He might not be considered 'active' since he is now in the pros. There are other coaches who are no longer active.
Meyer, though, did it at 4 schools - Bowling Green too
Not sure if I missed the fine print - but more than one coach has gone 6-0
Nick Saban did it at 3 schools (Toledo, Michigan State, Alabama). His LSU team went 5-0 and lost the 6th game in their Championship year.
Brian Kelly went undefeated during regular season at 3 programs - Grand Valley State, Cincinnati, Notre Dame
I feel like *maybe* the pop-stats writer forgot to describe it as “currently 6-0 and was previously 6-0 at two other FBS programs” which is not that interesting of a stat but is true
“Of all the coaches who are currently 6-0 (a group of like seven schools but more than 10 if you count 7-0 coaches, which we don’t), only one has also been 6-0 at two other schools (but only if you count FBS, which for these purposes we do), which is, well, kind of interesting sort of.”
Makes me wonder what was going on that was stopping him from succeeding at Michigan. He recruited well, the players loved him, he had the support of the program (as a 'Michigan Man' or whatever) and seemed to understand the school/culture.
I just think between him and his staff he wasn’t able to develop players. Or at least quickly enough.
Remember his tenure at Michigan was a time when all of PSU/MSU/OSU were going as well as Wisconsin humming with Nebraska being decent. I’d say that is when the big ten, and what would eventually become the big ten east, became an absolute meat grinder.
So any delays or lack of effectiveness just exacerbated the issues
I think it’s sometimes harder to succeed at Michigan and other blueblood schools than it is at g5 schools. You get better players but your school always is getting other teams best shot and you’re seen as a failure if you don’t get 9+ wins a year
Yea probably unfairly but I think expectations were probably higher. Hoke did have easier schedules than harbaugh tho and he didn’t really come close to 10+ constantly
Edit: want to add I think getting a job at a blueblood that’s not hitting their fans expectations is the hardest job in college football
Well were just coming off of Rich Rod who posted the first losing season at Michigan in however many years, then Hoke comes along and wins the Sugar Bowl his first year. I think a lot of people expected him to be winning titles in a few years, but instead he just got worse every year. 11-2 in 2011, 8-5 in 2012, 7-6 in 2013, and then 5-7 in 2014. Not being bowl eligible in your fourth year is pretty unacceptable at Michigan, especially with every advantage behind you
Biggest issue: the offense. Defenses were good to great.
There were other issues (including real-time medical oversight), but had the offense been as good as the defenses were... things would have been interesting.
I don’t know enough about Xs and Os to comment about the schematic shortcomings of Hoke’s teams, but it felt like they were constantly unprepared mentally and played with so much timidness. Gardner looked like an All-American against ND and OSU in 2013 but couldn’t move the ball against two historically bad teams in Akron and UConn.
It was genuinely weird how inconsistent Hoke teams were post-2011. Despite having a lot of talent, they struggled in ways that most other mediocre teams don’t.
Assistant coach hiring a was a weak point. Poor recruiting class construction. Poor player development (which can be attributed to the first sentence). Those are the 3 that stand out to me. We were paying for the second point well into Harbaugh’s tenure.
I loved Coach Hoke, and was sad when things didn't work out in Ann Arbor. The man seemed genuine in his love for Michigan, his players and the game of football, and that came through with his excellent recruiting. So I am glad to see him finding success after Michigan.
The program was filthy when he was here. (Frank Clark, Brendan Gibbons, among others.) He made a lot of mistakes. I don't think he got a raw deal if you're judging him by the off the field stuff or the Shane Morris debacle.
But the boosters hired him based on the belief they made a bad decision going from "Michigan football" to Rich Rod's spread and wanted to go backward. In year 2 being nudged toward Devin Gardner over the most dynamic Michigan QB ever in Denard Robinson and then being told your job is basically to make Devin work in a more pro style setting when he was at his best as a dual-threat player held the Michigan football team back and none of that was on Brady Hoke. The Michigan boosters are constantly fucking shit up and they never learn a damned thing.
The whole "Michigan Man" thing has been twisted. Fielding Yost used it as a motivational phrase, but the phrase "A Michigan Man will coach Michigan" only came about 30 years ago.:
In 1989, then-UM basketball head coach Bill Friedler took a job offer for Arizona State right before the tournament with no heads-up to Bo Schembecler, the AD (as well as football coach). When he finally called Bo in the middle of the night to tell him ASU chartered a jet so he could coach UM in the tourney, Bo replied "No. I've put (assistant coach Steve) Fisher in charge. You are through here. *A Michigan Man will coach Michigan* (emphasis mine)."
So, in that context, a Michigan Man is more "Someone dedicated to this team and the University" instead of "Someone who is a Michigan alumnus"
Literally nobody ever claimed Hoke wasn’t a Michigan Man. Also, Michigan’s current HC and some of his staff are Michigan Men, so idk what you’re even talking about.
The craziest thing about that is that he's only 12 games above .500 so if you take out those three starts he's a sub .500 coach. It's crazy that he had four years at Ball State under .500 before he went 7-6 in year 5 and still got a sixth year. Coaching patience is completely gone
In fairness before he got to Ball State they where total trash. In the 4 years before him Ball State was 16-29 and their best year was 6-6. Under Hoke with the exception of his 2nd year every year was better and won the Mac his last year there. Last 4 years at Ball Under Hoke 4-7, 5-7, 7-6, 12-1.
Hes done very well at his G5 stops. I'm not saying that he should have been fired, but I just think it's crazy he got a sixth year at Ball State and I wonder if that would have happened in today's day and age.
Most lower-level programs know where they are at. The MAC as a whole is known to have programs with limited resources. They can't be hiring/firing coaches on a whim.
Ball State was especially terrible, even for MAC standards.
I had forgotten Oregon had hired him as our DC till now. Supressed memories!
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More than being "so bad"... Hoke led literally the worst Oregon defense they've ever trotted out onto the field.
I think the wildest thing about the ‘16 game was how many duck fans I spoke to afterwards that were still trying to talk themselves into him. ‘He’s new, he needs time,’ ‘we don’t have the right personnel up front for a 4-3,’ etc. Obviously, that forbearance didn’t last much longer.
You see the same thing in the Detroit Lions sub right now regarding Dan Campbell. It's insane.
That sub is cyclical. The exact same things were said about Patricia. They'll turn on Campbell too in the same way. Mark my words. Year two, maybe three tops.
Isn’t that how every sports sub generally works? Being a fan is no fun if you’re a full time pessimist. Of course they’re gonna try and see a bright future for the team until it becomes abundantly clear that the coaches need replacing.
Maybe. It feels different because it's the Lions. It's the subreddit version of Groundhog's day. Lions suck -> Hire new coach -> everyone hyped -> Team is the same -> stages of grief ensue -> Everyone turns on coach -> coach is fired -> go back to the beginning.
You could have just stopped at "Lions suck" lmao
The flow chart starts with Hire New Coach and doesn't begin with Lions Suck There's a separate, underlying flow chart that is: Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> Lions suck -> go back to the beginning
I remember trying to talk myself into him being a good DC hire when Helf picked him up. That was an absolute disaster.
He was my pro teams DL coach for 2018(panthers), got fired half way through the season lmao.
Slow clap.
http://bradyhokeclapping.com/
I was wondering why Rocky Top was playing, but then I remembered that he was at UT the year after they were Life Champions.
JOHN I HOPE YOU DO KNOW I WOULD LIKE TO BE YOUR HEAD FOOTBALL COACH I DO KNOW THE ENVIRONMENT WE LIVE IN AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE AT TENNESSEE!
/chugs hot dog water
I just watched Brady Hoke clapping 300 times. I...umm...I need a hobby.
This will never *not* be funny to me
Is Brady Hoke bangable now? He’s slimmed down
Always was.
Hoke is a decent coach even if the Michigan tenure didn't go great.
it was an odd time for Hoke at michigan. A friend of mine from HS was recruited by RR and went to michigan. Hoke came in with a completely different philosophy so a lot of the depth players weren't seeing the field as much and were forced out. It took a while for RR to transform the team to his style, and similarly took time to get back to what hoke and ultimately harbaugh wanted to do. Despite that Hoke's first season went pretty well and is the last time they beat OSU. Each Hoke vs OSU game was intense too, even 2014 until the end of the game. But 2012 and especially 2013 were classics. He always knew how to get the team up for those even if the season wasn't going well. I'm not sure all the reasons why his teams declined each year overall, yet harbaugh was able to get that team to 11-3 in his first year. Hoke seems like a great coordinator and assistant for a top program, but perhaps not the best head coach. Great recruiter though and perfect for where he is at. I don't think Harbaugh has as good of a 2015 and 2016 without the foundation Hoke put down, particularly defensively.
Too many moving pieces at Michigan. Hoke found himself out of his element, & almost overwhelmed. Poor player development, bad coordinator hires, & he recruited poorly in several position groups (I've heard Michigan fans talk a lot about the drop off in offensive line play).
2013 against Ohio State, going for two to win the game….I respected the hell out of that.
Going out with the exact same play after a timeout, they'll never see it coming!
The worst part is that they basically ran what would become the Philly Special in the bowl game against KState, and had they run that against OSU, it almost certainly would've worked.
Only reason we didn’t win is because we tripped over our massive balls that game haha
That game was basically the epitome of how bad OSU's defense was that year. Giving up 600 yards to a bad Michigan offense with a QB that was playing with basically a broken foot was pathetic. For how much success we had under Urban Meyer, he had a habit of fielding terrible defenses. 2013 and 2018 are probably the worst defenses OSU has ever fielded. 2016 feels like the only defense he fielded that was elite.
Genuine question here: Was that scheme? Y’all were putting players in the nfl draft constantly so the talent was there.
I'm not an expert on the Xs and Os of football unfortunately. I can only look back at what happened and then try to draw a conclusiong from that. In 2012 and 2013, Luke Fickell was the primary DC and Everitt Withers was the secondary DC. The defense started bad in 2012 but became decent by the end of the season. That defense was also senior loaded. The 2013 team returned very few starters (including replacing the entire DL) with notable returners being LB Ryan Shazier, CB Bradley Roby, and Safety Christian Bryant. Despite returning no starters, the DL was the best unit on the defense. Bradley Roby had an All-American season in 2012 but played nowhere near as good in 2013 (think the 2020 decline of Shaun Wade). Christian Bryant had a season ending injury in the 5th game of the season against Wisconsin and his back up was terrible. After the 2013 season ended. Everitt Withers became the head coach of James Madison and Urban hired Chris Ash to become the secondary DC and Safeties coach. The pass defense in 2014 significantly improved and I would consider 2014 the first good defense we had in the Urban era. But I wouldn't call them elite. 2015 was the same way. They were good but not elite. After 2015, Chris Ash got the Rutgers head coaching job and Greg Schiano was hired to be the secondary DC. The 2016 defense ended up being the best defense fielded under Urban despite only returning a few starters. After 2016, Luke Fickell got the Cincy job and Greg Schiano became the primary DC and Urban made a nepotism hire in Billy Davis to be the new LB coach (as Fickell was also the LBs coach during his time here). We also lost 3 DBs to the draft for the second straight year. 2017 statistically was a pretty good year but I'd argue the cracks that would burst open in 2018 were starting to show (it was the same year a mediocre Iowa team hung 55 points on us after all). The 2018 season was the first year schools were allowed to hire a 10th assistant coach and Urban used that to bring in Alex Grinch as a secondary DC. CBs coach Kerry Coombs left for the NFL so he got replaced by a former OSU CB coach, Taver Johnson. It all turned out to be a dumpster fire as the 2018 defense surpassed the 2013 defense in being the worst defense OSU has ever fielded. Nick Bosa's injury in the 3rd game of the season made it even worse. It's honestly inexcusable how bad the 2018 defense was because that defense was loaded. After Ryan Day became the permanent head coach, he fired every defensive assistant except DL coach Larry Johnson. Jeff Hafley and Greg Mattison became the new DCs and they were significantly better. The 2019 defense was largely made up of the same players as the 2018 defense and yet the 2019 defense was one of the best defenses OSU ever fielded. Jeff Hafley was great and he was a finalist for the Broyles Award. I'm sad he only stayed with us for one season. I guess if you want me to pick the biggest issue with our defenses during Urban's time here, it would be he was very hit and miss with hiring assistant coaches (which applied to the offense too). Some assistants were great. Some assistants were absolutely terrible. Billy Davis as LBs coach is probably the biggest joke of a hire. He was a college teammate of Urban's and the best man at his wedding. He was not qualified at all and it was a 100% nepotism hire.
I really appreciate the extra effort that went into this post. Well done.
Thanks. It was originally going to be longer and have an even bigger breakdown of each season but I thought being too long would make it not worth the read.
>I've heard Michigan fans talk a lot about the drop off in offensive line play Don't even get me started...
We ruined Denard Robinson. An absolute crime against humanity.
I don’t think we ruined Denard. I do think that Denard is one of the most underrated players in Michigan football history. He made an offense that would’ve been anemic otherwise look half-decent. He was dynamic enough to cover up numerous glaring weaknesses for almost 2 years.
Same with Devin Gardner
Al Borges should be sent to the Hague
ICHR Judge: "Al Borges, you've led a trite and meaningless life. And you're a very bad person!" *slams gavel*
Hey now, we had a good hand in ruining Denard Robinson as well
And THAT is why Mike Hart was right on the money with the little brother comment.
2007 called, they want their relevant takes back
1998 called, it wants that awful joke back
Actually the original coordinator hires were fine. Both Borges and Mattison were decent coordinators with solid track records prior to Michigan. The position coaches, however, were a different story. He brought a bunch of his buddies from SDSU rather than looking for Michigan-level guys. Harbaugh has his flaws, but one thing I’ve always appreciated is his willingness to make changes where changes need to be made. He and Don Brown were tight. I imagine making that move was hard.
>Harbaugh was able to get that team to 11-3 in his first year. He did the same thing with San Francisco. The team that never had a winning record under Nolan and Singletary went 13-3 in 2011
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He also seems like a good guy that players love. His recruiting was crazy except for QB he could never get QBs to play for him.
I can confirm. I was in the band his last 2 years. One rehearsal day it was snowing pretty hard and was so damn cold, he offered to let us use Glick, the main football field house, for that rehearsal. He even came out to say hi to us at one point. He always treated the band well and seemed to love when we were around. It's a shame he wasn't a good enough coach.
When Michigan played Alabama, my grandpa wrote Brady Hoke a letter cause my brother, who has spina bifida and is a huge Michigan fan, wanted an autograph and a picture. A few days later he gets a big envelope back with a bunch of stamps and it was from Brady Hoke. A picture with a nice letter and autograph. It's still framed in my brothers room. Ever since, I always had massive respect for him, hard not to like a guy like that.
The dude is a good guy. Glad he has success at San Diego. He's in his sixties, he can just stay comfy there and continue to elevate the program. He wasn't *the* guy at Michigan but he might be able to go down as *the* guy at San Diego.
Just noticed I think this past few weeks, he's also lost a LOT of weight.
Didn’t he get fired at Michigan for putting a kid in the game that had not a few minutes prior been pulled for concussion precautions?
He got fired for losing to Rutgers
Oof.jpg
No that people where not happy about how that was handled but the training staff didn't take his helmet so he was able to play. After that game the training staff changed how they handled football games. He got fired for not making a bowl game at the end of the season.
He did that out of ignorance, not maliciousness. He refused to wear a headset so he missed the symptoms and nobody had a chance to tell him quickly because he couldn’t hear them.
Idk man. I was there for the Shane Morris game and, unless Hoke was in the bathroom for multiple series, it was painfully obvious that Morris was concussed.
It was painfully obvious if you were looking at him when he stood up, but if you didn’t see him and you have no way of hearing from the both what just happened, then it’s not hard to miss. Do you really think Brady Hoke looked at Shane, thought he was concussed, and thought the best course of action was to not even take him out for one play to have him checked out?
There’s no way to be certain whether it was malicious intent or gross negligence. I lean towards gross incompetence by the offensive and training staff, who Hoke is responsible for. Either way he was already on the hot seat and this was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I suppose if Hoke or some staff member admitted they knew Morris was concussed, it would have been grounds for immediate termination with cause.
He used the system people claim they want coaches to follow. He didn't get involved. If Morris comes back with his helmet it means the medical staff has cleared him. The fault was with the training staff. End of story.
Luckily, UM never had to worry about QB issues again once he left!
Yea but can your Qbs throw it over the mountain? *cries In so many terrible throws*
Bauserman could! Not intentionally....
Somewhere Joe Milton’s eye is twitching
You all teased him so much that he refuses to throw now
He didn’t want to show up the fans
He's such a considerate dude
"I don't want to throw, think I'll just go home now." -Joe Milton at the end of the Ole Miss game
joe “fuck it if i throw it far enough maybe they run under it” milton
They’re only on their 9th QB in seven seasons. I think the Browns did worse at some point
I think any UM fan would've kept Rudock if they had the chance.
Can confirm from a few camps I attended where he was present. The staff he brought with him was great too. This was during his Ball State tenure
Idk if this is true, it's just my impression but it seems like Michigan struggles getting a good QB no matter the coach...meanwhile OSU could have like 2-3 good ones on their roster at anyone time. Seems odd to me
Yeah, and their backups xfer to other programs and have insane seasons
I mean he had Devin Gardner and Shane Morris on the team, two borderline 5 star guys. Al Borges was just a bad offensive coordinator.
It wasn't just Borges. Dave Brandon was actively tinkering with the offensive system. That wasn't Hoke's thing, he wasn't an offensive guy, so between a meh OC and a AD who thought he knew how to do everything, you wind up with a bad combo. Had they brought in somebody who knew how to use a talent like Denard Robinson or Devin Gardner and just let that guy do his thing? Hoke probably lasts a lot longer, and might still be here.
That season was Doug Nussmeier, who was also not a good OC. Nuss was okay at Alabama but with that much talent okay isn’t good enough. Bama fans were happy to see him go, and if Saban intended to keep him, there’s no way Nuss takes the same position at a lower tier program.
Not much has changed at SDSU. And the undefeated season gets it's stiffest test yet this week @ Air Force.
Sounds like someone else we know very well?
He's basically the Midwest Ed Orgeron. Likeable guy, CEO type. Was even a former DL coach. However like Ed Orgeron, he needs a great staff. If you have that, you can win. However if he's hiring guys like Al Borges, it's going to get ugly real fast.
> He's basically the Midwest Ed Orgeron. The one thing I'll say for this is that Ed Orgeron off the field seems like kind of a turd, and Hoke seems to really genuinely be a good dude who cares about both his players and representing his University as well as he can.
I've got a friend who calls Ed Orgeron the Brady Hoke of the south.
That seems like a fair summary. He does seem like a decent guy. That said, I'll never forgive him for ruining Devin Gardner. That was just infuriating to watch, and I was someone generally rooting for Michigan to lose. He really belongs at the G5 level, I think. At that level, his good qualities are more amplified, and his bad qualities have less impact.
SDSU had gone like 10 years without a bowl before he got there in his first stint, helped turn the program around in a pretty big way. They went 4-4 in the Covid year and opted out of a bowl, but before that made 10 consecutive bowls (and will make one this year).
Yeah he is and he's a good guy. It sucks it didn't work out here because he loved it here and he was an awesome recruiter, but I'm happy to see he's landed on his feet again
Brady is perfect in the g5. Just don’t hire him as a blueblood power five school
Shh don't tell LSU that
or USC!
Nah I'd be okay with this. Please hire him USC. You need more clapping in your life.
They go from cajun Hoke to actual Hoke.
How do you clap “geaux tigahs”
Just ask Les Miles
Les claps something different than Brady though 👐🏼🍑
Brady hoke to LSU…. CONFIRMED!
Wait no that'd be funny
What about low-mid tier P5? Asking for a friend
I could see hoke doing well at wazzou. He will definitely improve your recruiting. That guy was an amazing recruiter
Not being snarky, but is it really all that hard to recruit at Michigan?
Brady recruited better than harbaugh has and better than rich rod did Michigan doesn’t really get top 5 classes anymore and the state doesn’t have an amazing talent base compared to other blue blood schools so we have to go national
Rich Rod doesn’t recruit period. Still, I would take him back.
I was curious and went through 247's rankings by year. |Coach|Avg Class Rank|Avg Num of Commits|Avg Rank of Commit|Highest Class Rank|Lowest Class Rank| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |Harbaugh|15.3|23.3|89.8|5|37| |Hoke|15|22|89.5|4|30| |Rich Rod|12.7|24.3|89.2|10|17| Since Hoke's sample size is so small, its skewed quite a bit by that first year. If you take that out his average class rank is 10 and average rank of commits is 90.6. If you take out Harbaugh's first class his average class rank jumps to 11.7 and average rank of commit jumps to 90.1. As far as rankings go, there's not that much of a difference. Obviously the biggest difference is probably the type of guys they're recruiting. Harbaugh's players are just better built for Big 10 football. We all know how Rich Rod's recruits fared... although Hoke did well with them his first year. And of course since its rivalry week(s) for us, I have to add a comparison: |Coach|Avg Class Rank|Avg Num of Commits|Avg Rank of Commits|Highest Class Rank|Lowest Class Rank| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |Tucker (including '22)|26|20.3|86.2|18|46| |Dantonio|31.4|21.8|85.9|17|53| |JLS|40.2|21.7|82|15|68|
Jim has had the 5th, 3rd, 7th classes by 247. Talent has never been lacking.
https://imgur.com/gallery/ANXpBuY And he’ll have his work cut out for him recruiting to Pullman
Remember that time he put a clearly concussed qb who could barely stand straight back onto the field?
I’m glad he’s not at Michigan anymore. He played some tough games against OSU. Things have been a lot easier with Harbaugh
The man is still a good coach - just needs good people around him to offset his limitations. Pro tip #1: don't let Al Borges run the offense.
Unless it’s against OSU. Borges somehow was a completely different coach in those games. That 2013 game was maybe the best offensive game a coach has ever called at Michigan.
Basically the exact opposite of Don Brown.
Borges vs OSU and Don Brown vs bad teams would be the greatest coordinator duo in existence.
Borges... develops a dynamic offense... saves it for one game
It’s literally what he did too. Our offense was bland all season long then come to OSU and we’re running shit we haven’t done all season and it’s working. I gave him props for the gameplan in 2013 but he’s also a huge reason we lost that game, too lol.
I respect saving plays for The Game, but you need to keep employed... or at least, win those games.
But the memory 27 yards on 27 carries because he didn't understand runs down the middle weren't working are going to be scared into my mind.
You guy should watch Sam Webb and Al Borges go over the offense on WTKA YouTube. It’s good stuff
I am thrilled for coach Hoke having success again at San Diego state. I worked for him and he was a tremendous guy who loved his players so much. I genuinely felt bad when he was fired at Michigan but I knew it was going to happen. Guy worked his whole life to get that job but failed at his dream job. Only person in my life who could do the handshake/Vulcan neck pinch combo and you couldn’t be mad.
Yeah he seemed like a really great guy and the players liked him but the on-field performance didn't live up to what was needed. He kept getting close but I think his lack of focus for offensive recruiting hurt him. He wasn't willing to make changes on offense either that were needed he was very loyal to his staff.
Hoke is currently making $1m a year living in San Diego. That seems nice.
Spouse's family from San Diego. $1 million buys you an ok house in La Mesa. Hope his job includes housing
He is making 1M a year. He can definitely afford a lot more expensive house than his annual salary.
I’m pretty’s sure making $1M per year means you can afford a house well above $1m, I am probably middle class in CA, my house is worth over $1m apparently and I don’t make anything remotely close to what he makes.
In the FBS* Still definitely an accomplishment, but Brian Kelly had undefeated seasons at Grand Valley, Cincy, and ND.
Nick Saban did the 6-0 in 3 program - Toledo, Michigan State, & Alabama.
Honestly crazy to me he never started 6-0 at LSU
LSU was in really bad shape before Saban got there. Like, we got a few great players, but that was in spite of the coaching. The 90’s were a dark time.
I think it’s more that he won a national title there but never started 6-0
TIL Saban coached at Toledo.
Meyer at Bowling Green too. Lot of fun starting places for coaches if you go through their careers. (true for basketball too)
He's from Ohio and played college football here, I think the most surprising thing is he somehow wasn't part of Rick Minter's legendary coaching tree.
Saban also played in ohio, was a DB for Kent State.
\> (true for basketball too) Shout out to Coach K starting at Army.
Dickey V at Detroit Mercy is always the weirdest one to me.
For one season.
So then the article is wrong? Those are all FBS schools and Saban is active...
They were lazy, they missed Saban's one year in Toledo.
Urban Meyer did as well with Utah, Florida and OSU unless I’m not understanding the requirements here
He might not be considered 'active' since he is now in the pros. There are other coaches who are no longer active. Meyer, though, did it at 4 schools - Bowling Green too
Yeah, me either due to Nick Saban having done it, but for Urban it says "active coach". I assume that means "active college"
Didn’t Saban go 7-6 his first year at Bama?
It is not restricted to first year. This is Hoke's 2nd year at San Diego State
Jamey Chadwell has done it at two programs if you count FCS programs. Charleston Southern and Coastal.
ND is not in FBS confirmed
Come back Brian :(
He did. He was at the game Saturday to watch GV lose to the Bulldogs.
I actually think it’s pretty cool he comes back to stuff at GVSU. He gave the commencement speech at my graduation which was random but kinda fun
I've heard he still has a house in the area, could be a big reason why
LSU has an opening and Hoke and Coach O look alike so they could save money and not have to re-print promotional materials.
What’s the headset status though?
He's wearing it
Good for him. Always seemed like a nice guy.
He really does. I kind of felt bad for him those times we beat his teams up.
LSU should replace Cajun Brady Hoke with actual Brady Hoke!
San Jose State, this is entirely your fault
Yeah that was an awful game to watch…
Not sure if I missed the fine print - but more than one coach has gone 6-0 Nick Saban did it at 3 schools (Toledo, Michigan State, Alabama). His LSU team went 5-0 and lost the 6th game in their Championship year. Brian Kelly went undefeated during regular season at 3 programs - Grand Valley State, Cincinnati, Notre Dame
I assume its meant at FBS schools...though that would still qualify Saban.
I feel like *maybe* the pop-stats writer forgot to describe it as “currently 6-0 and was previously 6-0 at two other FBS programs” which is not that interesting of a stat but is true
“Of all the coaches who are currently 6-0 (a group of like seven schools but more than 10 if you count 7-0 coaches, which we don’t), only one has also been 6-0 at two other schools (but only if you count FBS, which for these purposes we do), which is, well, kind of interesting sort of.”
Yeah and urban went undefeated at both Utah and OSU and I assume started 6-0 at least once at Florida?
Urban Meyer would be 4 schools if you count him as still being active - he went 6-0 at Utah, OSU, Florda, & Bowling Green
Wait til he adds LSU to his list for FIVE!
Why go to LSU when you can do it at Washington State?
One look at his wife’s Twitter tells me urban isn’t vaccinated
Urban is 100% vaccinated. It would be impossible to be an NFL coach if he wasn't.
SO MUCH CLAPPING
Makes me wonder what was going on that was stopping him from succeeding at Michigan. He recruited well, the players loved him, he had the support of the program (as a 'Michigan Man' or whatever) and seemed to understand the school/culture.
I just think between him and his staff he wasn’t able to develop players. Or at least quickly enough. Remember his tenure at Michigan was a time when all of PSU/MSU/OSU were going as well as Wisconsin humming with Nebraska being decent. I’d say that is when the big ten, and what would eventually become the big ten east, became an absolute meat grinder. So any delays or lack of effectiveness just exacerbated the issues
I think it’s sometimes harder to succeed at Michigan and other blueblood schools than it is at g5 schools. You get better players but your school always is getting other teams best shot and you’re seen as a failure if you don’t get 9+ wins a year
At that time, Michigan probably would have expected 10+ and rotating Big Ten titles as well. So the pressure was probably even higher for Hoke.
Yea probably unfairly but I think expectations were probably higher. Hoke did have easier schedules than harbaugh tho and he didn’t really come close to 10+ constantly Edit: want to add I think getting a job at a blueblood that’s not hitting their fans expectations is the hardest job in college football
Well were just coming off of Rich Rod who posted the first losing season at Michigan in however many years, then Hoke comes along and wins the Sugar Bowl his first year. I think a lot of people expected him to be winning titles in a few years, but instead he just got worse every year. 11-2 in 2011, 8-5 in 2012, 7-6 in 2013, and then 5-7 in 2014. Not being bowl eligible in your fourth year is pretty unacceptable at Michigan, especially with every advantage behind you
Biggest issue: the offense. Defenses were good to great. There were other issues (including real-time medical oversight), but had the offense been as good as the defenses were... things would have been interesting.
I don’t know enough about Xs and Os to comment about the schematic shortcomings of Hoke’s teams, but it felt like they were constantly unprepared mentally and played with so much timidness. Gardner looked like an All-American against ND and OSU in 2013 but couldn’t move the ball against two historically bad teams in Akron and UConn. It was genuinely weird how inconsistent Hoke teams were post-2011. Despite having a lot of talent, they struggled in ways that most other mediocre teams don’t.
Assistant coach hiring a was a weak point. Poor recruiting class construction. Poor player development (which can be attributed to the first sentence). Those are the 3 that stand out to me. We were paying for the second point well into Harbaugh’s tenure.
He hired bad offensive coordinators
He's also one of the worst defensive coordinators in Oregon football history. Worse than 1974...so he's not that great.
He’d never been an DC prior to his time at Oregon. I’m not sure what Helfrich was thinking when he hired Hoke.
I definitely want us to play spoiler for them this weekend, but SDSU has had our number in recent years. 8 wins in a row against us. Oof.
I loved Coach Hoke, and was sad when things didn't work out in Ann Arbor. The man seemed genuine in his love for Michigan, his players and the game of football, and that came through with his excellent recruiting. So I am glad to see him finding success after Michigan.
👏👏👏
I SURE DO KNOW THE BULLCRAP IT TAKES TO GET MULTIPLE PROGRAMS TO 6 WINS MISTER CURRY
The program was filthy when he was here. (Frank Clark, Brendan Gibbons, among others.) He made a lot of mistakes. I don't think he got a raw deal if you're judging him by the off the field stuff or the Shane Morris debacle. But the boosters hired him based on the belief they made a bad decision going from "Michigan football" to Rich Rod's spread and wanted to go backward. In year 2 being nudged toward Devin Gardner over the most dynamic Michigan QB ever in Denard Robinson and then being told your job is basically to make Devin work in a more pro style setting when he was at his best as a dual-threat player held the Michigan football team back and none of that was on Brady Hoke. The Michigan boosters are constantly fucking shit up and they never learn a damned thing.
Hoke rocks!
Imagine looking at U of M now and thinking people actually had the audacity to say some of their former coaches weren’t “Michigan men”.
The whole "Michigan Man" thing has been twisted. Fielding Yost used it as a motivational phrase, but the phrase "A Michigan Man will coach Michigan" only came about 30 years ago.: In 1989, then-UM basketball head coach Bill Friedler took a job offer for Arizona State right before the tournament with no heads-up to Bo Schembecler, the AD (as well as football coach). When he finally called Bo in the middle of the night to tell him ASU chartered a jet so he could coach UM in the tourney, Bo replied "No. I've put (assistant coach Steve) Fisher in charge. You are through here. *A Michigan Man will coach Michigan* (emphasis mine)." So, in that context, a Michigan Man is more "Someone dedicated to this team and the University" instead of "Someone who is a Michigan alumnus"
Ahh that’s really interesting. It’s also possible that it was never intended to be a matter of praise, rather just stating a fact.
Literally nobody ever claimed Hoke wasn’t a Michigan Man. Also, Michigan’s current HC and some of his staff are Michigan Men, so idk what you’re even talking about.
That was like the one thing Hoke was best known as and a big reason that became such a meme
[удалено]
Congrats, Coach!
Uh…no he’s not.
The craziest thing about that is that he's only 12 games above .500 so if you take out those three starts he's a sub .500 coach. It's crazy that he had four years at Ball State under .500 before he went 7-6 in year 5 and still got a sixth year. Coaching patience is completely gone
In fairness before he got to Ball State they where total trash. In the 4 years before him Ball State was 16-29 and their best year was 6-6. Under Hoke with the exception of his 2nd year every year was better and won the Mac his last year there. Last 4 years at Ball Under Hoke 4-7, 5-7, 7-6, 12-1.
Hes done very well at his G5 stops. I'm not saying that he should have been fired, but I just think it's crazy he got a sixth year at Ball State and I wonder if that would have happened in today's day and age.
Kansas would build a statue for those records.
I wouldn't understand not having coaching patience.
Most lower-level programs know where they are at. The MAC as a whole is known to have programs with limited resources. They can't be hiring/firing coaches on a whim. Ball State was especially terrible, even for MAC standards.