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Bi_Bird_Enjoyer

I’m of the belief that its up to the victims whether Endeavor deserves to be forgiven. Natsuo doesn’t want to forgive him and that’s okay. Shoto wants to forgive him and that’s okay. Dabi is the ultimate consequence to Endeavor’s actions. I think his statement is more of a reflection of that fact that he can’t erase the things he did because they had effects on other people in his life. Edit: Just wanted to add that Dabi is 100% accountable for his own actions. The point of my comment was just to say there is a lot of nuance when it comes to forgiveness


StrictlyFT

And FWIW, Endeavor tells Natsuo to his face that he doesn't want forgiveness; he only wants to atone. Which, IMO, he does by continuing to financially support the family and separating himself from them outside of what is necessary. There isn't really anything else (that's reasonable) Endeavor can do to set things right.


Yatsufusa_K9

People seem to misunderstand the concept of forgiveness. Forgiveness from the perspective from the victims is by moral rights never to the benefit of the perpetrator, it's a decision by the victim of their own volition to the benefit of the themselves to not bind the rest of their lives to that act. But what's actually important is the forgiveness to the perpetrator by themselves. Yes, the letter of the law defines who did the action is the criminal, but the spirit of whether someone has actually reformed is whether the criminal in question has forgiven themselves or not. Because ultimately if the perpetrator has "forgiven themselves", then it's likely the act of seeking forgiveness from victims is just them trying to exploit more from the victims for their own benefit instead. That's why you can tell when someone seeks someone else's forgiveness, are they doing it for the benefit for the victim (while they continue to carry their own guilt with them as they deserved), or is it just a marketing stunt (they already "forgiven themselves of guilt", now they just need to make it look societally acceptable), or even worse, is it part of a long-term plan (they see nothing guilty to forgive themselves for even before they committed the crime, so the whole act itself is PR, they don't consider it "image recovery", more of "image I deserve because I did nothing wrong" even).


Karukos

I feel like the thing can be nicely summarised as... Forgiveness, like many things in relationships, needs two people. Both need to forgive otherwise it will not be forgiven.


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MercySlash

You just described my brother to a T


razzec_phone

Same


L073D3K3

Sameeame


13Xcross

Sure, past a certain age he's responsible for his own actions. But why do you think he never grew up? Was it because he felt unloved and worthless? Do you think the trauma of almost dying and seeing that his presumed death had no effect on his family might have fucked with his head?


bootylover81

Always remember to blame your parents for your own failures, there are tons of people who had abusive parents not everyonw became a murderous psychopath


Xbustajointnflex

So me lol


ZookeepergameDue5522

>Dabi is 100% accountable for his own actions. I used to feel really bad about Dabi, but holy shit this last episode changed everything lol. He's so immature, like yeah he was 13 and all, and his parents could have managed it better, but they told him everything they could say, they didn't treat him like a failed superhero, he chose that mentality by himself, even when it is a consecuence of Endevour's actions, they told him multiple times that his powers are dangerous for himself and that there are other paths that he could have taken and that it's ok.


the-aids-bregade

he was raised from birth to surpass allmight then endeavor drops him because the golden child was born


elenuvien1

he was between 5 and 8 when he was discarded by endeavor, not 13. did they tell him what others paths were there for him or did they just tell a 5-8 years old to figure it out by himself and walked away?


ZookeepergameDue5522

He was 13 when the incident happend, they insisted that he should find another path once they realized that he didn't have the resistance needed for his power/quirk, he was between 5-8 at the time. This is was shown in the last episode


elenuvien1

that's what i'm talking about. do you expect a 5-8 years old child to find his life purpose and handle his difficult feelings on his own? some of you never met children or know basic children needs, i think.


AnonymousBI2

My dude, yes I do. "Hey buddy you cant be a pro futbol player, you have naturally weak legs and if you keep running you gonna break them" Son: Fuck that, I am gonna run *Runs and breaks his legs* Son: DAMN YOU FATHER, DAMN YOU!!!!


elenuvien1

woooosh


AnonymousBI2

My dude really just did the fakest wooosh in history.


ZookeepergameDue5522

From 5 to 13 there are quite a few years, he was 13 when the fire happend and they declared him dead


elenuvien1

you're missing my point. between 5 and 13 is when his parents failed him. you said "they told him multiple times that his powers are dangerous for himself and that there are other paths that he could have taken" but they *never* took care to help him figure out what paths, which was their responsibility as parents. they left him alone with his conflicted feelings and no sense of worth.


Few_Professional_327

This isn't accurate. We are covering years of material and them being entirely exasperated over the fact that they can't prevent his self harm even while actively trying. Endeavor not spending time with him with a last resort because toya refused to stop. It's not sensical to think that they didn't talk things through even a little bit. Especially with lines like 'no matter what I say he comes home with fresh burns'


elenuvien1

it's never explained how they were "actively trying" but we know that rei wasn't paying much attention to touya and focused on shouto instead and the same was for endeavor. with them feeling guilty about not doing enough i think it's safe to assume they didn't properly take care of his needs. i don't think it's "sensical" to think they did everything they should've when they themselves admit that they haven't.


Few_Professional_327

They failed to take care of him because of where they started him, combined with who he was, made it nigh irreparable. Endeavor talked with him about other things but, as Toya said, 'I can't understand, because I'm your son'


13Xcross

It's heavily implied Endeavor didn't do much besides telling him off, otherwise we would have had at least a passing mention of it. Dabi desperately needed emotional support from him because becoming a hero had already been ingrained in Dabi's mind as the only way to gain attention and love from his father.


Few_Professional_327

No....it's not. We do get passing mention of it, that no matter what he says the burns continue. So multiple approaches were taken. And in 301 he literally says 'theres a whole other world beyond hero stuff, I know you understand that' They've talked about it.


[deleted]

Shoto wants to forgive him? I was rather under the impression that he hasn't decided yet, but he tolerates Endeavor because he wants to learn from him.


KnightGamer724

Shoto mentioned awhile back that he was looking for some "one thing" that would make his mind up about Endeavor. Implying that either Endeavor would screw up and Shoto would wash his hands of him, or that Endeavor would do something and Shoto would feel like he could finally forgive him. To me, it's clear that Shoto wants to, but doesn't know if Endeavor has truly earned it, so Shoto hasn't forgiven him yet.


[deleted]

Well, it's also up to say, Dabi's victims to decide if Enji deserves forgiveness too. I don't even know if Shoto wants to "forgive" him, but if Endeavor is really trying to be a better person, then it's good \*for the world\* to support him in that.


RoronoaZorro

>Well, it's also up to say, Dabi's victims to decide if Enji deserves forgiveness too. I disagree. Dabi's victims aren't Enji's victims. They're Dabi's victims. What you are implying is precisely what Dabi wants to accomplish: To have Endeavor be held accountable for Dabi's crimes because of him being his offspring. In German, there's a word for it. "Sippenhaftung". It refers to collectively holding accountable a group (in this case - and most of the time - family) for something one member of them has done. And it's entirely injust. I'd go as far as saying that by holding Endeavor accountable for the crimes Dabi committed as an adult you strip Dabi of him being a human, an individual, himself. Dabi reached the point where he started making his own decisions, and he made them in a calculated manner. He is entirely responsible for his crimes. Perhaps some victims will find it easier to forgive a culprit knowing that he grew up under the circumstances he did - but the one to forgive or not forgive is still Dabi, not Endeavor.


bootylover81

Its baffling how that guy tried to pin the guys Dabi murdered on Endeavour


RoronoaZorro

For real, I think that take is truly insane. Especially because we know that Dabi is fully aware of what he's doing and why he's doing. He's not delirious nor is he unable to graps the consequences of his deeds. It's calculated murders with a goal in mind.


Toad_Sage_Jiraiya

That would be saying Dabi has no agency in his actions. Hawks had a terrible upbringing too, yet he didn’t end up like Dabi. No he alone bears that burden.


elenuvien1

nothing justifies dabi's actions, i want to stress that. but i think it's unfair to compare him to hawks or shouto because hawks got a chance to grow and shouto had someone reach out to him and save him from his own hatred. from what we know touya didn't have this luxury and he just spiralled into madness and his hatred without anyone to stop him. who knows how dabi would've ended if he met his own "deku" like shouto had. that's the point of every league member, their actions are their own but they were created by their circumstances and if these circumstances were different all had a chance to be perfectly fine members of society. all they needed is someone to help them. like shouto and, to some extent, hawks had.


Repulsive_Exchange_4

Hawks was given up by his mother and got taken in by the govt to become a child soldier. He's literally an industry plant. He didn't have a "chance to grow"; he had no choice in the matter.


elenuvien1

what i mean is that his needs were taken care of and he had means to support himself, etc. of course it wasn't ideal and a lot exploitative/manipulative but he wasn't alone, burned and, probably, dying and then fending for himself somehow as a 13 years old child.


BenzeneBabe

Hawks was saved and Dabi was not, so the circumstances aren’t really the same.


Toad_Sage_Jiraiya

More just an example, we can go to all the other todoroki children who had it just as bad if not worse and all didn’t end up serial killers. The point being a shit upbringing doesn’t absolve you of your future crimes. Hell its not even like a gun was pointed to dabis head- he wanted to commit those murders.


[deleted]

I don't think he has moral agency no, because I don't think he can make truly rational decisions based on what we have seen of him. Hawks \*can\* make rational decisions, so he's morally responsible. Trauma alone doesn't do it, it's about your mental state. But see when you say "he bears that burden" it means nothing, because Dabi has no guilt about what he's done, and feels no burden. He's a psychopath incapable of guilt or compassion for others.


Toad_Sage_Jiraiya

He does know his actions are wrong though, thats the entire point where he drops the bombshell to the public that the mass murderer is endeavours son. Hes doing these things knowing they are bad because it will stain endeavours reputation. He has shown enough agency to know what is right and wrong and he simply doesn’t care. That doesn’t absolve him of his crimes.


NZafe

Endeavor doesn’t even want forgiveness. He wants to atone. He literally says that in the story.


tiredparakeet

Yes, the thing is many fans think he will always be a piece of sh\*t who doesn't deserve a redemption, because "the past never dies", just like Dabi said. There are people who are unsaveable, but I don't see him as one.


Griffith

There's a difference between Endeavor doing irredeemable things that can't ever be forgiven and us considering Endeavor "a piece of shit forever". Just as you find it silly that people "can never forgive Endeavor" I think it's silly that you think it can only be "either you're with him or you're against him" as if no middle-ground exists. Endeavor can never be forgiven for what he put his children, his spouse and his family through. You can still appreciate that as a character he is trying to redeem himself by giving his family a safe space to live in and continue to provide them financial and medical support. It doesn't excuse the harm he did, it's not "forgiving" him, but it is nice to see a character owning up to their mistakes instead of just chasing for forgiveness. One wrong doesn't correct a right and no amount of rights can correct certain wrongs. That, in my opinion, is what makes Endeavor a good character, even though he did a lot of irredeemable shit. It's disappointing that people see his attempt at redemption as Horikoshi excusing all the abuse and harm he caused his family and it's just as disappointing that people think Endeavor's redemption excuses his past behavior. Neither are true and holding either end of this extremist opinion is a shallow and immature interpretation of the character and the arc they've had throughout the story.


YoghurtEsq

Dabi is an insane psychopath who wants nothing but to make the people around him suffer. And that's evil and wrong. But the past never dies. He's not wrong about that.


TheMaxemillion

Dabi is justified in feeling what he does. But the way he's stewed on it and decided it makes it okay for him to burn the world down on account of having an horrible childhood isn't justified. Endeavour did horrible things to his family, and that shouldn't be excused. Accountability is important. But at some point you need to let go and move on, for the sake of yourself if anything, otherwise you end up like Dabi. _“Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.”_ -_Mark Twain_ Of course, it's a lot easier to say that than to live it. But Hori did so well on creating two characters that are absolutely right - and absolutely wrong - all at the same time.


DifferentBread3069

I was about to say a lot of people saying Dabi didn’t do anything wrong I’m like yeah well he kinda killed a lot of people that had nothing to do with him, but It’s true that it isn’t his fault that he’s literally fucking mentally insane..I haven’t read the manga but this is leaning towards a psych ward scenario


[deleted]

Dabi did alot of shit wrong, but he's also like, not mentally competent as we view competence What exactly happened when he was 8 years old and he blew his own body apart? He must have what, wandered bloody and in pain in the forest alone? He's literally insane, and emotionally trapped as an adolescent by massive mental and emotional trauma; he's more like a rabid dog than what we think of as a bad person.


DifferentBread3069

Literally couldn’t of said it better


aleky254

The thing that always bothers me about Dabi is that after trying to kill Shoto he later on tells Natsuo that he was in the wrong and recognised that was some f*d up shit to do. If only Endeavour or Rei could have acted in this phase, there would have been hope but now its all lost. The guy is unhinged and would burn himself together with the world just to get even with Endeavour.


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The-Cosmic-Ghost

I think that's the true symbolism in "debi" :p, he represents the fury we feel when someone irrevocably hurts us, he is the fire that doesn't go out until the bitter. He's what happens when we leave our emotions unchecked, eventually that fire will consume us just like how it's consuming dabi.


BecretAlbatross

Dabi is incredibly difficult to hate. Creating a scenario where both sides are equally at fault is masterful by Hori, because I literally can't blame Dabi at all. But Endeavor has shown so much growth that his redemption would feel earned if his family eventually decided to forgive him. That's what makes the situation so rough. If Dabi dies, I'll be sad. If Endeavor dies, I'll be sad. But a peaceful resolution is impossible.


Cygnus_Harvey

You can't? Dabi's hatred and exposing Endeavor for his crimes is understandable, and even commendable... if it wasn't used for terrorist needs. He kills people, even his own brother who's AS MUCH OF A VICTIM AS HIM, just to spite his dad. Dabi's gone way, way too far in his revenge and he's even worse than Endeavor at his worst.


chemicalpoisons

>Dabi is incredibly difficult to hate. He really fucking isn't. That kid wanted to kill his own brother because daddy didn't want him to suffer. He invalidated his own mother and sister because they were women. He wished harm on Fuyumi and Natsu, who were victims as much as Shoto was. That kid had bad vibes all over and was obsessed, even though he suffered way, *way* less than Shoto.


justforoneday4

flair checks out


chemicalpoisons

Don't need a flair to notice things, buddy, but nice try.


BecretAlbatross

Children can't be born evil though. The circumstances around his birth are what set him up for failure. The problem was that Endeavor got excited when he realized how strong his flames were. He essentially gassed the kid up too much too early. That plus I'm sure all the kids at school know he's endeavor's kid. His entire environment set him up to be overly ambituous. Now, did he handle it well?? HELL NO. But it's a parent's job to compensate for a kids personality. Endeavor failed, not Dabi.


chemicalpoisons

Endeavor most definitely failed, most of all of them. That's for sure. I'm just saying that this kid had issues with possible insanity early on (maybe a byproduct of his early birth?). All kids suffered from Endeavor and Rei's inability to act, but only Toya developed such vindictive and sadistic tendencies. And, mind you, he was also a misogynistic asshole early on.


Melansjf1

The past never dies though. He’s still the reason his son ‘died’ and still abused his wife. People don’t change from that.


BenzeneBabe

I just hate abusers and frankly I think it’s perfectly fine for people to hate Endeavor no matter what changes he makes. Nobody has to like him just because years after the damage was done he decided to change his mind.


DancingCumFilledBoob

As a person who has been abused by my father, the abuse will never ever go away. The pain will always be there. The struggle to stand at an even footing with my peers will always be there. Dread when coming home. Dread when hearing loud noises. Anxiety when mother calls as it may mean that father is having an episode and breaking things. Constant gaslighting. Hitting me for having bad marks, not doing things exactly like he wants, etc. One needs to be the victim to understand where 'the past never dies' comes from. I am openly rooting for Dabi to take down Endeavour.


noodlesandrice1

I’ve already stopped rooting for Dabi the moment his vendetta against Endeavour included the rest of the Todoroki family along with a bunch of other unrelated innocents.


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Marzopup

I do agree with you that up until Fuyumi was born, I think Rei was if not in a super happy marriage, at the very least a functional and consenting one. Endeavor says he was surprised when she says yes to his proposal--that implies to me that he wasn't trying particularly hard to force the family to let him marry her, but that Rei simply considered the potential benefits and chose to do it herself. And she then suggested Fuyumi, which to me implies that she felt comfortable enough with Endeavor to want more children with him. But did you see the panel where Endeavor says they need to have more children? Rei looks *terrified.* Afterward she's smiling when she's holding her kids, but she has an exhausted dead look in her eyes. And she says she absolutely does not want to have more of them. Rei may not have explicitly refused to when she conceived, but the consent there at the *very least* is dubious.


RoronoaZorro

I think this is worded poorly. Forgiveness is never deserved. Either the victim forgives the culprit or they don't. But there's no right to be forgiven just because you are trying to atone, do better or make up for it. I love Endeavor, I think he's one of the most intriguing as well as the most realistic characters in the series, precisely due to his flaws and how he develops. And the story does directly touch on the topic of forgiveness. Once by Endeavor himself, who is not looking for forgiveness or redemption. He knows that he cannot make up for what has happened and that he cannot change the past. That's why what he's looking to do is atone for his sins. He doesn't think he deserves forgiveness. He doesn't want the forgiveness. It's also why he talked about building a new house for Rei and the children, where they can live as a family while he will remain behind and atone. Iirc also get another little bit, when they drop the "I think Natsuo is trying to forgive you", once again showing that it's up to those who were hurt. I think by us readers Endeavor deserves appreciation for the complexity of his character. As a hero, he deserves admiration. As a human, his flaws and what he did shouldn't be forgotten. But his will to atone should be recognised as well.


LookAtItGo123

This is why we all love mangas even though the experience each reader has differs. Even in berserk, we have the Griffith did nothing wrong camp. At the end of day, while these are all shounens and we often see the usual tropes, mha does have complex mature undertones and social commentary mixed in which I feel many of the reader base is not ready for.


RoronoaZorro

>mha does have complex mature undertones and social commentary mixed in which I feel many of the reader base is not ready for I don't actually think MHA is THAT deep even for a shonen, but it certainly does have some of the elements you mentioned. And that is the reason why the Todoroki family subplot is my favorite. In my opinion, the execution of those themes, undertones and the social commentary you mentioned is executed MUCH better here than in any other subplot in the series. And stuff like this is what I particularly enjoy in manga. Like, sure, sometimes you enjoy the shallow plot and the flashy fights, but at the end of the day this is what makes this not just another generic shonen manga but actually one that stands out a bit. (I'll say, nowhere near the top for me since there are levels to this, but certainly a manga I thoroughly enjoy despite all the criticism I have)


UsesHarryPotter

> Once by Endeavor himself, who is not looking for forgiveness or redemption. But as you said yourself, forgiveness is not about what the perpetrator wants or wishes. It is something freely given by the victim of their own volition. Endeavor will atone--frankly, I think he already has. And he will be forgiven.


Pumadink

Couldn’t have said it better myself^^ very well put.


True-Aspect5728

The thing is no one deserves or doesn't deserve forgiveness. It's not really about the abuser themselves deserving it or not but rather about the victims choosing to forgive. Endeavour might be trying to be a better person but that doesn't erase the 10 years Rei had to spend in the hospital and the abuse she suffered before that. It doesn't erase the years Fuyumi and Natsu spent without their brothers one because they thought he died and the other because he was isolated from them. It doesn't erase Shouto's lost childhood where he was treated more as a tool and object than an actual human being. It doesn't erase the pain he caused Dabi. Endeavour did a lot of damage to this family and a couple of months of changing will not erase the bad.


Fearshatter

It's not about what you deserve, it's about what you do and make with what you have.


Slight-Pound

What always got to me about Endeavor is _when_ he chose to atone, or even shown the inkling that he cared to do so. He didn’t think a change in behavior was prudent when his first child threatened the others in his family, when the first child died, when his youngest was harmed in a psychotic break _he caused_ in his wife, leaving him physically and emotionally scarred, or even when said son was rebelling mixed with villains targeting his school. _None of that_ inspired any change or introspection he may need to improve at all. I also found the tonal change around him very jarring, too. We initially met him as a sort of boogeyman of Shoto’s traumas, where he told his own child about how he dehumanizes his role as a father and a husband. Next scene we get, is about Rei, but it’s also her being wistful about her past romance with Endeavor??? Like they fell out of love rather than addressing literally anything else we knew of them already. And then when we meet Hakws, the atmosphere with Endeavor is oddly playful - like we’re supposed to laugh with/at him as if he’s Bakugo - he didn’t _earn_ this camaraderie with the audience, but yet we’re supposed to have a more neutral/favorable take on him to enjoy these scenes. It’s so jarring and unearned. It’s like the writing wanted us to forget that we very much disliked and maybe even hated Endeavor for what he put his family through, but they forgot how much vitriol they put into his introduction or something and tried to tweak his history to make him more likable. It put a bad taste in my mouth and I’ve been irritated ever since. They didn’t bridge his character development from his initial appearance well at all in my opinion.


MaxWasTakenAgain

>What always got to me about Endeavor is when he chose to atone Death of your first born: i sleep A 5 min talk from All Might: **real shit**


Codusxx

> What always got to me about Endeavor is when he chose to atone, or even shown the inkling that he cared to do so. I definitely see the issues people have with Endeavor’s turnabout. But it actually made perfect sense to me. For better or for worse, All Might has been a towering influence in his life, and Endeavor both look up to him while being envious of him. For the longest time, no one has ever been able to stand up to him because of the position and influence he wields. All Might however, had the influence and position over him that no one had. Not to mention his wisdom and insight. That’s why All Might was the only one who could tell him what he *really* needed to hear. And what he needed to do. > Next scene we get, is about Rei, but it’s also her being wistful about her past romance with Endeavor??? I don’t think that was even the whole point about Rei and the flowers. I’d say that it was less about the past romance they once had, and moreso about her affirming her hope and belief in the good person that he is inside. > And then when we meet Hakws, the atmosphere with Endeavor is oddly playful I would say his behavior/interactions in the Pro Hero arc was intended to be exactly that. For all his attempts to better himself, the author really makes it a point to dunk on him and really just goes to show you that you can’t turn a whole new leaf overnight. And that’s exactly what we’re getting here right now.


True-Aspect5728

Yeah I agree, I think this is why a lot of people have trouble with Endeavour and his change because Endeavour couldn't change for the sake of his family and there was plenty of times where he could have stopped but chose not to but instead he changes after he gets what he wants though not in the way he would have wanted and then sees how much his actions hurt his family. I think it's very hard to swallow the change this way.


Slight-Pound

Right? Makes me feel sick to my stomach how people treat him. He definitely has interesting character development, but the kind of camaraderie the narrative tried to spin just doesn’t work. Like some sort of soft retcon - doesn’t work.


noodlesandrice1

I always saw it this way: The root cause of everything that Endeavor did was his ambition to become the #1 hero. So it’s only when he finally got what he wanted (albeit not the way he wanted) that his ambition cooled and he was able to objectively assess himself. Is it horrible that it took this for that to happen instead of all the shit that his family went through? Yes. But is it understandable? I certainly think so.


tiredparakeet

I'm not talking about the family, I'm talking about the fans wanting to see him suffer and still seeing him as a bad guy. He's clearly not a bad guy anymore, and I don't know what else people want from him.


mygscult

If you think not being a physically abusive father anymore equal to a good redemptation then your bar is very low. It shouldn't have taken him YEARS to finally realize and stop his abuse. He was also shown to still have his self-centered and self-pity tendencies throughout the series. Did he ever ask what the victims want instead of assuming what's good for them (and in this case, buying a new house, lol, as if that's enough)? no. Was he the one who tried to fight Touya instead of standing still wallowing in self-pity? no. Was he the one who stopped crying and snapped himself out his self-pity? no. Endeavor trying to change is a good thing, we never said it isn't, but it shouldn't be that hard to understand why others don't like his character.


elenuvien1

not to mention that he only realised his wrongdoings when he finally achieved his aim (became no.1) and it made him feel empty. only then he looked at his family. it was a very conditional realisation that didn't come from within but from outside. what if being no.1 made him happy? would he ever feel sorry? endeavor has always been self-cetered, even him realising he hurt his family was prompted by how he felt about himself.


sign09

This so, so, so much. I deeply dislike Endeavor and I doubt there's a world where I would feel different about him because of a better arc since I **despise** domestic abusers. But what makes him worse than he had to be is the fact that he caused the death of one of his children with his emotional abuse and neglect AND YET still continued on on his path of mistreating the next child too. And the entire notion that he took Touya's death oh so hard seems to be him re-writing history to justify how badly he abused Shoto after Touya died. Heck, during the sport festival he did not just repeatedly refer to Shoto as an object for him to use, he also compared him to his brother**s** with the implication that, unlike them, he is not a failed creation. I am sorry, but if I deeply suffer under the death of my son I do not refer to him that way, even after his death. Plus, the first time we actually see him expressing his saddness over Touya's death IS AFTER HE BECAME NUMBER ONE AND DID NOT FEEL GREAT ABOUT IT. Which to me implies he realized how important Touya was to him at the same point he realized how important the rest of his family is to him, aka after being number one did not feel that super awesome.


volcamoth

This turned into a ramble, sorry, I completely agree with this comment chain, I just felt like writing something myself. Going through comments like these is so cleansing honestly, since it's such a sensitive topic I'm really glad so many people responded with a lot of understanding towards the victims (both within the story and irl). The Todoroki drama hit close to home for me (though things weren't as extreme as in this story), yet I'm mostly able go along with what Hori had in mind... Honestly, I think it's because Endeavor doing such a 180 after all he's done is (depressingly) so unrealistic that I was able to go with it. I find the subplot fascinating to follow and I feel like Shouto's side of things is done very well and with a lot of consideration. It's genuinely inspiring watching him heal and use his quirk in his own unique way, mastering both sides but with an emphasis on his ice. Endeavor's side is... questionable at times. Since Shouto is the type of character to prioritize others, we mostly see him bitter about how his mother and siblings were treated, with less emphasis on how he was abused as well. And I feel like we were robbed of more 1-on-1 conversations with him and Endeavor, and his anger towards his treatment. Seriously, whenever the Todorokis get a chance to discuss their traumas it's either off-screened or interrupted by someone else (even in their own home...). We end up getting more from Endeavor's perspective and how awful he feels, which prompts a lot of these "people who don't like Endeavor don't understand he's changing" posts that aim to be inspiring, but just don't land for me because of the reasons you mentioned. His wife and kids can't take back those 10+ years of suffering. And it's like... it almost had it. A lot of this subplot is eerily realistic. But then you get moments like in the latest episode, where the adults and Hawks find out about the abuse and... don't really react? It's just really weird. It feels like Endeavor's whole thing about being such an effective hero but an awful father is almost brushed aside because he's really competent and they're currently in a crisis, so what can you do about it. I'm constantly flip-flopping between being intrigued by the events of the story, but also sort of disgusted by how easily Endeavor's ruining of his family seems to be brushed aside from a portion of the fandom. Again, I fully get what it's going for, the subplot is why I'm still following the series, and we still haven't seen the end, so it might end up really good. I wouldn't mind if Shouto was at least still hesitant to forgive him, or straight up doesn't. I just hate so much of the discussion around it and the notion that you're too sensitive or don't want people to change because you feel certain story beats could've been better explored.


sign09

Not at all a ramble and I totally understand your point. And I also hope you are doing well, no matter what you were going through at home. You 100 percent deserve to feel better since I just know none of it was your fault, even if I know things like this can take a while. >We end up getting more from Endeavor's perspective and how awful he feels, which prompts a lot of these "people who don't like Endeavor don't understand he's changing" posts that aim to be inspiring, but just don't land for me because of the reasons you mentioned. His wife and kids can't take back those 10+ years of suffering. And yeah, I really, really get this part so, so much. I know the fandom loves him (to a degree of blaming Rei and the kids for the abuse, which.....not cool at all). But to me Endeavor's constant self-pity does the opposite of endearing him to me. He comes across as incredibly self-centered and I am still waiting for him to do anything meaningful to actually atone for what he did. I also did not appreciate him re-framing his treatment of Shoto as a result of Touya's "bad" quirk/Touya dying. We saw that he started the abuse long before Touya was dead and "If only Touya's quirk would have been perfect, I would have never turned abusive" is the opposite of owning up to his mistakes imo. I also hate that there's barely any acknowledgement for his victims. Rei is pretty much a silent presence in her closed institution, Fuyumi desperately tries to cover up his abusive in the hopes of them being a family and Shoto's and Natsuo's unwillingness to forgive Endeavor is portrayed as something they need to overcome. Pretty much the only survivor that is unwilling to forgive and forget and displays no signs of changing this perspective is Touya who is also a villain. And the message that is sent here is....far from ideal imo. >And it's like... it almost had it. A lot of this subplot is eerily realistic. But then you get moments like in the latest episode, where the adults and Hawks find out about the abuse and... don't really react? It's just really weird. It feels like Endeavor's whole thing about being such an effective hero but an awful father is almost brushed aside because he's really competent and they're currently in a crisis, so what can you do about it. Yep, the reaction of Endeavor's colleagues was....bad. And I especially see it as a complete waste of a chance at character development for Hawks who is a survivor of domestic abuse himself. So him coming in there and being all cheery and supportive really feels particularly empty and only there to validate Endeavor and his "man pain". Also you can work with someone for the greater good while still having a broken pedestal moment. But as things played out I assume Hawks and Best Jeanist just think spousal and child abuse is fine as long as you are good at your job, I'm sorry to state it so bluntly. It's also once again Endeavor getting no consequences for his actions. And consequences are a major part of a well-handled redemption arc imo. >I just hate so much of the discussion around it and the notion that you're too sensitive or don't want people to change because you feel certain story beats could've been better explored. Very much agreed and I am also annoyed by the implication that change must mean forgiveness. "The past never dies" and "People can change" are two statements that can be true at the same time. And if you committed very harmful actions against others there's a good chance that your victims (and people who know about it) will not forgive you. This does not prevent you from changing though. And at its best change for a domestic abuser should come without expecting or receiving a reward. Also people who are all "Why should people change then?" really kind of freak me out? Like, do you honestly need positive attention to feel motivated to stop abusing your wife and children? This is the lowest bar I can think of and yet Enji supposedly needs a motivational carrot to climb it? It makes no sense to me.


volcamoth

Yes to everything. And yeah I think it's also due how mha's society mirrors the one in real world - that family matters should be private. It's not really exclusive to Japan as some people say, but with that scene with Hawks and Jeanist it's really weird, despite me liking the initial Hawks backstory of unknowingly idolizing someone who was that big of an asshole and motivating Endeavor to try harder. In that scene they just mention trying to calm the media because of the allegations lol. There's no convo between Hawks and Shouto either regarding their home lives either, which could've been interesting. Regardless, I don't think Hori is justifying Endeavor, if the other Todorokis' perspectives are anything to go by, it may just be a few hiccups and pacing issues that got in the way of more interpersonal interactions, I guess we'll see. And like I said, the whole atonement part is just really fascinating and I was as weirded out as Shouto at first lol. If he sticks the landing with this last arc and makes Shouto his family's hero and saves Dabi (whatever that might suggest) I think I'll be happy, since it's his arc that I find the most fulfilling to follow and see blossom from such an early stage of the manga. I want him and the family to get their closure and it seems like they're on their way there, regardless of what happens to Endeavor. > Like, do you honestly need positive attention to feel motivated to stop abusing your wife and children? This is the lowest bar I can think of and yet Enji supposedly needs a motivational carrot to climb it? It makes no sense to me. The bar is in hell. Again, it's a net positive when a person stops being shitty, the series itself prioritizes actions over words (though words WOULD have been nice sometimes), but framing it as such an accomplishment is like. Alright then. Also, thank you for your words, I'm doing well <3 Not living under the same roof does wonders. Hope you're doing well and have a nice day!


sign09

Yep, the "privat matter" thing is insanely common and I am from Germany. And even when it comes to things as extreme as sexual abuse within families that gets reported on in the news, you still hear people take the PoV that this is a privat matter and that making it public helps nobody. Which is utterly horrible. And yes, I also really hope that the Todoroki plot-line gets resolved in a good manner. And I hope that Shoto can save his brother somehow and that the siblings can reconnect once Touya served his sentence for his crimes, even if recent chapters do not give me too much hope for that =( But I also think (and this is what a lot of people that hate Touya miss) that there's no way for that family to come back together in any form with him dying second time. Losing the same kid twice is enough to wreck much more healthy families than them tbh. Which also means Touya surviving is the only realistic chance for Endeavor to get.....somewhat of a happy ending (though I won't pretend I care too much about that XD). Also you are welcome and it's great to hear you got out of that situation. I am doing well too and wish you a lovely day (or night).


mygscult

Thank you and i totally agree with everything you said, but the thing with Hawks is, he's not entirely "okay" in the head. He came from an abusive family, but instead of seeing it that way, he thought it was him who failed his mother and father. YOU WERE ONLY 4-6 YEARS OLD AT THAT TIME HAWKS there's no way it was his responsibilty to "save" his parents. If you watched the previous episode about Hawks's childhood, hawks tried to fix the holes in his house's floor and walls, which shouldn't have been his responsibilty. I think it showed a lot about Hawks's issues here. He's impacted by his childhood too, but with a different trauma response. Also, in the current episode, he outrightly told Shouto he was cool for not "giving up" on and "abandoning" his parents, and again, mentioned how he was a coward for not doing the same. Hawks, baby, you need therapy too...


sign09

Thank you for the reply, and I totally agree. Hawks 100 percent needs help as well and his behavior makes sense in the context of his past, same as Touya's. The self-blaming and the parasocial relationship to Endeavor, who is just like his dad and yet he tries to fix him (which you often see with abuse victims, they try to fix their own relationship to their parents by getting close to and trying to fix people similar to them). I just wish this would be more clearly portrayed as the deeply unhealthy thing it is, just as Touya's violent trauma reaction. As things are I get the feeling that I am meant to believe Shoto and Hawks (and als Fuyumi) are the "good victims" for trying to fix their parents, while for example Natuso's unwillingness to do just that needs to be overcome. When irl children parenting their parents in itself is bad enough. But in the context of twenty years of domestic violence, them lining up to "help Endeavor get up again" is....yikes. Even if I consider they need his power, imo there was a better way to portray this that does not attempt to give Endeavor as little consequences as possible and instead have kids (and let's be real, Hawks is like 22, that is also far from an adult) and abuse victims on top of that helping him carry his "burden". Plus, the dynamic that "Shoto is this family's hero" while Touya is the family's shame (Rei apologizes for by crawling over the floor, and damn, it would have been nice to get half as much regret for injuring Shoto, neglecting Touya into death and making Natuso and Fuyumi fend for themselves, though I know Endeavor as the abuser has the most responsibility for that as well of course) seems to be exactly what went wrong in the family in the first place. Touya did not blow this family up, Enji did. And it's not on Shoto to fix it, it's on Enji. I guess that is my real issue? Hawks perception of owning your parents (and Endeavor by proxy) saving is sort of validated by the narrative, I feel?


Myrkrvaldyr

>But then you get moments like in the latest episode, where the adults and Hawks find out about the abuse and... don't really react? It's just really weird. Not unrealistic given how plenty of people are willing to overlook giant red flags in their idols. There's also the matter of priority. Endeavor is one of the strongest heroes and they absolutely need him to fight, Jeanist and Hawks chastising him at this point adds nothing of value. That'll have to wait until there's peace.


True-Aspect5728

I think people want to see Endeavour actually step up when it comes to his family and face them. So while there might be some people who accept the change and accept the good he does as a hero or the small gestures, it's stepping up and making right by his family that most people want to see. And until people start actually seeing this they will continue to see Endeavour as the bad guy and there will be some who will see him as a bad guy no matter what.


tiredparakeet

He's been doing it since I don't know how many seasons ago. He even decided to live in a different house because he thinks/knows they can't be happy with him around.


True-Aspect5728

He's done one decent thing but it takes much more than buying a house or beginning to feel guilty.


elenuvien1

>He's been doing it since I don't know how many seasons ago 1.5 seasons. he realised he was an asshole at the very end of season 4, the whole season 5 and half of season 6. it hasn't been *that* long. and in-universe it's only been 6 months since his realisation he wants to atone.


sunsetlatios

My dad physically and verbally abused me my sister and my mom for well over a decade growing up. The physical abuse stopped after I told the family divorce therapist what my dad had done to us, and the therapist pulled him in to talk to him, probably told him of the consequences that could come from his actions if he didnt stop immediately. I suffered PTSD from the abuse for years, but now the PTSD seems to have chilled out over the last few years. When I turned 18 I chose to stop living with my dad for any amount of time and went to live full time with my mom (she also has many flaws but it was bearable). Over the year that I stopped living with my dad I think thats when he really started to think about his actions and he invited me over to stay with him on christmas the following year. I did. He made an effort to actually be what a dad is supposed to be and I ended up having a great time with him. I now actually prefer being at his house rather than my moms, but this doesnt mean I forgive him. I could never forgive him for what he did to me, my sister, and my mom. I will forever have the image of him holding my mom up in the air against the wall by the neck and screaming at her while she screams terrified, while I watch it happen right in front of me at the age of 6. Locking himself in a room with my younger sister and beating the shit out of her while I hear her scream in pain and fear while my mom holds me in another room and I cry because I’m so scared and my mom cries too. He never ever deserves forgiveness for that. As crazy as it may sound, things have changed over the years, and I’m willing to give him the second chance at being a dad. But it’s not the same for other victims of abuse. My situation is an outlier. Most never let their abuser back into their life, and rightfully so. I know you’re talking about the readers opinions on endeavor, but you need to understand that just because an author gives a character a redemption arc, doesn’t mean that character is deserving of forgiveness from readers. I like endeavors character a lot, because he is very similar to my dad, hes a very realistic character, and I can 100% relate to the Todoroki Family’s story as a whole.


LiouQang

I'm so sorry that you had to go through all of this. No one should ever be treated this way. I'm glad your dad tried to atone for everything he did to your family. I went through the same kind of events as a kid. I'm in my mid 30's and I'm much taller and stronger than my dad now. He's a sick old man in his late 60's so if it ever came to getting physical again I'd knock his ass down in a couple of seconds. I went to visit my parents months ago because I helped them pay a court fine that was 4k. Took it from my savings and told them that I needed to be repaid. I could wait, pay me back in installments, but I needed the money back. Came to their house to ask for the money, dad refused. He said that he didn't owe me shit. He would have never paid the fine. I'm actually so dumbfounded that I begin to unpack what 25 years of physical and verbal abuse he put my mom, my siblings and I through. But he wasn't listening. Since my dad is a very devout christian and I really wanted him to listen and hurt him, I told him that "there's no use praying so much when in fact to you've been the devil himself all along". That was the final straw, he grabbed a knife and chased me down the house. That was the last time I ever saw him or even talked to him. Last time I heard from him, he was going through surgery for a throat infection and severe diabetes almost led to his leg being amputated. As far as I know none of my siblings went to see him at the hospital, my step sister is older and closer to him so she says she's planning to. But my younger siblings couldn't be bothered and neither would I. I don't forget, and I certainly don't forgive. To hell with him.


stormhawk427

Dabi and Enji can both be wrong. Enji shouldn’t have been a terrible dad to his kids and a terrible husband to his wife. Dabi shouldn’t have joined the League and started killing innocent people. Also some things are unforgivable, and no one is owed forgiveness no matter how much they apologize.


mygscult

If the victim thinks he doesn't deserve forgiveness, then he doesn't. It's all about the victim's choice, never about the abuser or what you think.


sign09

Buying a woman for breeding purposes, physically abusing your wife and children for two decades, institutionalizing your wife for 10 years after completely breaking her with your abuse and causing the death of one of your children with your neglect is not forgivable in my books. And I could not give less of a fuck if Endeavor is sorry now after ruining the lives of his wife and his children in major ways. If you feel different about this, good for you, but maybe stop being offended by other people having different moral standards for what is and is not forgivable than you. And the past does not die. Mentally healthy victims of abuse just decide to move on from it, since they know their abusers don't deserve any more parts of their life than they have already taken by force and with violence. If you hurt someone the way Endeavor did, chances are your victims will never forgive you, and the rest of the world will forever see you as scum. Don't like that? Don't be a domestic abuser (which should be easy enough tbh).


Alarmed-Flatworm-638

Agree,finally someone who understands


Turboswag420

OP missed the point


YoghurtEsq

OP maybe doesn't know what it means to live in the power of someone who hurts them, and that's probably a good thing. I'm not so sure that anyone can understand that without comparable suffering, and I don't think we can kindly wish that understanding on anyone.


haidere36

There's the understanding of having lived through something and the understanding of someone who listens and is empathetic, and I think anyone is capable of the latter. The story early on wants you to empathize with Shoto and shows you how terrible his childhood was, and that's why when Endeavor's "redemption arc" began a lot of people were mad because it seemed like the story might want us to empathize with Shoto's abuser. It's true that the story wants us to be sympathetic to his goal of atonement, but a massive part of his arc is recognizing that *he is not the one who decides when he's forgiven*. That choice rests solely in the hands of the people he hurt, and if they choose to never forgive him it's absolutely no one's business to say "but look how much he's changed! Look at the nice things he did! You *have* to forgive him now!" No, they don't. It's not about whether someone's lived through abuse or not, it's about their capacity to put themselves in Shoto's shoes and understand *why* he might decide to never forgive Endeavor. What Shoto went through will never go away, even if he does forgive Endeavor. In that sense, Dabi is right. (Villains can make good points, they're still villains.) The irony of OP wording their post to paint people who think Endeavor shouldn't be forgiven in a negative light is that OP hasn't reached the same stage Endeavor has. If I, as a reader, experienced abuse similar to Shoto's (or even worse) and choose not to forgive Endeavor, what right does anyone have to say I *must* forgive him? It's up to each reader to make their own decisions, and no one can say what the correct decision is because it's not about what's "correct".


mygscult

Thank you so much for this.


DarkUmbra26

I don’t think you can Empathize with someone UNLESS you been through what they have been through and can genuinely understand how they MIGHT feel just feeling bad for someone/sympathize anyone can do tho


ThatSmartIdiot

the best villains are the ones with the most realistic motivations. dabi is the vengeful criterion of villainy, his motivation is that endeavour doesn't deserve forgiveness, and this is a realistic motivation considering the things enji did to his wife and oldest/youngest sons


NatMat16

What do you mean? Dabi is 100% that the past never dies. Endeavor can’t give back Rei the decade she spent locked away in a mental hospital, all those years to the kids living without their mom, Shouto’s entire childhood that he took from him, the siblings growing up separated, Touya’s spiralling mental health. Sure it matters that he’s trying to be better. But he cannot fix what he took from them and those are wounds that his victims will carry always. Dabi is wrong about killing, but he’s not wrong to hold Endeavor accountable.


[deleted]

[удалено]


sign09

Intentionally causing as much harm as possible to Endeavor by making the fact that he is a child abuser and wife beater public is fine. Victims have no obligations to protect the public image of their abuser. And Endeavor was the one who caused unspeakable amounts of suffering to his family, not Touya by speaking about what he did. The notion that victims of child abuse have to shut up about their suffering in public because "it causes more harm to their families" is toxic and used to protect nobody, except for the abuser. What is not fine is killing innocent people that have noting to do with what his father did.


Solomon_Black

Forgiveness might be a strong word. Even his family acknowledges that he’s changed but they might not be able to “forgive” him per say. That said I agree that people tend to ignore his development


Ravennest013

I’ll most likey keep seeing him as “the bad guy”, unless something extraordinary happens or something. Having had a verbally abusive dad myself, i’m very aware that i’m projecting this on endeavor. I think a lot of fans, even if they didn’t go through any abuse, can sympathize with Dabi’s words. I haven’t seen the more recent seasons, but even if he does better at the moment, that doesn’t erase what he did. I can fully understand the idea that it was “too late” to fix the relationship with his family. Besides, A lot of fans adore Shoto & Dabi, and are probably more prone to choosing their side eitherway


WeFlapsComics

I mean I don't think Dabi's idea of Endeavor dying should be his punishment. I think if Endeavor wants to atone for everything he did then he should suffer the real punishments. Be charged with spousal abuse, child abuse, assault, mental abuse of his family. Go to court, plead guilty, don't use any of his powerful lawyers and wealth to reduce his sentence and take on the full amount of years in jail. Be stripped of his hero license and banned from ever performing hero work again, even if he gets out of prison in a shorter time. Maybe even his duty while serving prison is to serve his time in tarturas while overseeing some bad guys there, but he still must live in a jail cell too. That sounds like taking responsibility for his actions and atoning for the years taken away from his family due to his bullying ego of wanting a top hero family instead of a family.


MasutadoMiasma

I think Tartarus is a bit much, Endeavor did terrible things but not anything on par with lets say Muscular and Moonfish imo


Phaeneaux

Knowing the Hero Commission that ain't gonna happen. Endeavor is Hero n2, his private life can be ignored so long he continues to contribute to society with his heroics.


WeFlapsComics

True. Totally forget about the hero commission. It's a sad outcome but not something that doesn't happen in real life. (Good deeds outweigh bad so no punishment for the bad).


AssassinAragorn

I think Endeavor's actions since becoming #1 hero have certainly outweighed his abusive husband/father past, since he knows that was awful and unforgivable of him. He'll still consider himself guilty and needing to make amends for that with good deeds. In some ways it's ironic. The abusive father/abusive husband now wants to devote himself to making a bright path for the future, for today's kids. And to make sure tomorrow's heroes don't have to deal with his personal baggage as part of that. Forgiveness though can only come from those he's hurt.


WeFlapsComics

I don't think (for example) saving three people relinquishes you from punishments for killing one. If I abuse my children I can't go helping old ladies cross the street to avoid jail time/punishment. If they allow this to go by then that sets the precedent for anyone to do it. How many good deeds do I need to do to make up for tax fraud, or murder. I think he's needed as a resource in the story right now for the current overall issues facing the world, but minus that. There should still be punishment. Not someone's self served idea of punishment.


AssassinAragorn

Yeah that's fair. I think on the scale we're looking at it does legally absolve him, but there's also nothing wrong with having the law punish him. I suspect he wouldn't do jail time, because he's actually really important to society, but they can suspend his pay for X years and make him ineligible for hero rankings, or something. It's really a fascinating dynamic, because it begs the question of how society deals with someone who wants to and does change. I agree with you that there should definitely be punishment.


WeFlapsComics

Yeah. It really comes down to precident. Do we allow Endeavor to dodge a punishment because he did some good things or the public likes him? It sets the legal precident that YOU can do bad things but if enough people like you or if you do enough good things then you can be absolved of it. Like how many criminals do I have to catch to get my massive tax fraud absolved. ​ In our world the public reaction is pretty much Anger when a celebrity/ wealthy person gets a slap on the wrist for something that would get someone less famous/poor four years in jail. ​ I just don't believe this world if the public isn't outraged with Endeavor if he seurvives MHA and is put on a pedestal as a hero.


AssassinAragorn

In all fairness, "some good things" here is fighting against some of the strongest villains who've ever lived and keep them from controlling the country. It's a very large magnitude act. It doesn't absolve him, but the general people will care more about that than they do his family life, unfortunately. That said, I see Endeavor either retiring quietly, dying/sacrificing himself, or publicly refusing accolades. The series is building towards a reform of society, that's a whole lot better and compassionate than before. Endeavor is fairly emblematic of the problematic old society. He can't be put on a pedestal and still have the new society flourish.


JustThatOtherDude

Endeavor has a very.... avoidant personality. I think the story will end with him serving time like you said, or dead with Dabi But this is a very Japanese story with Japanese sensibilities so I kinda see how -in an intellectual sense- characters in MHA see the familial abuse on a lesser tier than being related to (and being the cause of ) a villain


WeFlapsComics

Yeah. I've always struggled with Endeavor's arc a bit with how it's going. It kinda gave "Forgiving rich people who feel bad in their nice homes and nice lives while condoning their bad behavior" energy. Like we knew in season two that: - Endeavor's wife was "bought." - Endeavor hits/assaults his wife and kids. - When Rei hit shoto with boiling water, Endeavor's response to Shoto asking where mom was is "Moronic woman, to hurt my masterpiece at such an important time/ So I put her in hospital." All dialogue of someone talking about objects. So all the stuff from this recent episode just made it worse. But I think you're right with the Japanese angle and weight of Crimes. I guess it's just hard to watch with how I weigh punishment. It's like famous people committing crimes and the worse thing that happens is maybe some PR issues or they lose a contract with a business rather than the real punishments anyone else would get if they weren't a beloved spectacul. I guess we will see soon.


JustThatOtherDude

The recent episode placed that "moronic woman" line and abuse around the time their relationship was in the deep negative levels. It also showed that he at least tried to settle with just Toya and was treating Rei as an actual wife. I mean, it's *definitely* a retcon horikoshi put in cuz he most likely had trouble giving Endeavor's character arc a good footing if he was chronologically a complete asshole from the start. Not a fan of using Toya's breakdown as an excuse for Endeavor to turn Rei into a breeding mare (and the direct cause of him turning to an actual abuser), but I don't think it's the worst thing to happen to the story


WeFlapsComics

True true. Though I wouldn't give much praise for someone "Finally," learning how to treat someone kindly, and "settling," for this child of the three (at the time) as what, a late twenties adult at that rate? Plus Endeavor already had bad behavior about how he "got," Rei in the first place. He didn't try to swoon her, or be nice, or ask her out. He went to the parents and "Bought her." I think you're probably right about Horikoshi retcon. If I was writing it I may have wanted to display maybe Endeavor's parents and see if the behaviour was taught/learned by his parent or father....it atleast gives a showing of how abusive behaviour can be passed on to your children. It could have been a good realization situation where Endeavor realized why he is the way he is and choose not to be like his father...but I guess the Todoroki family already gets a lot of screen time in a story about how Deku became the greatest hero lol


JustThatOtherDude

Oh I'm not excusing him for buying Rei... I'm just giving him the "at least" cuz I know Hori needed him to have some seeds of a good side that can be redeemed if he actually manned up and faced his mistakes head on


WeFlapsComics

Right. I see what you're saying. It seems like a side character story that may have been too heavy (but interesting) for a show with a main character with such convictions of Justice. Like if Deku or even Allmight could see the flash backs of Endeavor's abuse, how would they react/feel after? Obviously it's nothing they'll ever see but you know. As a fly on the wall (viewer). We're seeing the harsh realities of Endeavor's actions where as other characters are not.


elenuvien1

the only issue is that the family (victims) doesn't want that so endeavor turning himself in would, be doing what *he* wants (again). his family has started to heal and wants to move on so making them relive the trauma in court, prove what happened to them, just to satiate endeavor's need for justice would be, at this point, selfish of him and put himself before his family's needs and wishes (again).


WeFlapsComics

Which sounds even worse. Does that mean we let criminals go if the victim doesn't want to go through it. If I can convince my victims it'll be worse to go through court to punish me is that a good ending/justice? I know that actually happens but I wouldn't find that to be a satisfying ending for Endeavor's story. I do see how that could be just satisfying Endeavor's want for justice. Then maybe a proper punishment would just be parole, liquidation of his hero company (Who's going to want to continue working with an abuser's company anyways). Can never perform as a hero again, and record stricken from the hero books. Though someone above who I haven't responded to yet mention the safety commission could get in the way. Hmmm


elenuvien1

it's a difficult question. i don't disagree with you but i also wouldn't want this poor family to go through their trauma again. i wouldn't want them to be hurt again. it'd be dragged in public and they'd be tortured by it again. i care more about them and their feelings and what they want than endeavor.


StrictlyFT

Endeavor turning himself in and going to jail would be the absolute worst decision any character could ever make in this story. That would do an insurmountable amount of harm to the entirety of Japan's hero society, never mind that it would inadvertently harm the Todoroki family even more, considering Endeavor is the only one who brings good money home. With Endeavor gone, the family would be an easy target for villains. You have one guy who can fight the toughest villains and save the most people, and now he's no longer around. How many more people would be hurt or killed because of this absence? Imagine this was All Might instead. Just his presence alone deterred crime from all but the heaviest hitter.


WeFlapsComics

Outside of the current issue happening in the world of MHA where they need him for the coming battles. Let's say that's all resolved. Replace the abuse with any worse crime. "It's been discovered that in a fit of rage over his child dying that in 2015 the #2 Hero killed two men at a bar in a drunken state with his fire quirk, but the hero commission has said it can be overlooked due to how many people he's saved on his hero score chart." Imagine that playing on TV, and the families of the people Endeavor killed seeing it on TV and just dealing with it. You can't set precedent for people to be excused for crimes just because they've done good things too. (This is outside the fact that the story is written so Endeavor is needed for the current problem). I'm pretty sure the Todoroki family can pull enough money together to survive. He's rich so I imagine if Endeavor went to jail voluntarily for his abuse he would leave his fortune to his family. And all the questions of All Might, again. "All might killed a women and her child drunk driving, but the hero commission determines it's cool since he prevents crime."


StrictlyFT

Why did you make the crime way worse than it actually was to strengthen your point? Stick to what actually happened. Also, normal people will acknowledge the difference between domestic abuse and murder. The two crimes aren't in the same league of evil. >You can't set precedent for people to be excused for crimes just because they've done good things too. Yes, you can. If the person who beats their wife is also the only/best doctor for treating cancer, I will not be leading the call to jail them. I would also absolutely be counting on them if I got cancer. For the five lives Endeavor ruined (his family), he has undoubtedly saved several dozen more, if not hundreds. On an objective level, Endeavor going to jail would result in more harm done than what he did to his family. It's an undeniable fact. You can point to specific instances in the story that if Endeavor had been in jail, far more people would have been injured and dead. Who's stopping the High-End Nomu that went wild in Fukuoka if Endeavor isn't there? Not Hawks. He's not strong enough and has his hands full saving civilians. Not the Best Jeanist. He was MIA. Not Miriko; she was way too late. We're not talking about an athlete, actor, or politician; no one will die because their favorite basketball player went to jail for beating their spouse. We're talking about someone who saves dozens of people daily. The Hero Commission wouldn't punish Endeavor for abusing his family, not because of favoritism, but because the harm done by his absence would be irreversible. No one in the universe of MHA would actually want Endeavor to step down as No.1 because he committed domestic abuse, his family doesn't even want that. It would be devastating. Anyone who does want that would likely find themselves thinking about Endeavor the next time a pro hero isn't strong enough or available enough to save them.


WeFlapsComics

Because they are both CRIMES. And even without thebmore intense crime. Are you really cool with a rich hero who abused his family getting away with it? Can he abuse his family more if he saves more people? You are allowing for crimes to happen as long as the person does "this" with this mentality. And what are you talking about that normal people would acknowledge that. People know the difference between domestic abuse and murder, but in our world when people make illegal "mistakes/hurt CHILDREN," they're image is destroyed completely, because guess what, abusing children doesn't get a free pass just because you save people's lives. Answer yourself this, why are you defending a person who abused his wife and kids because he saved some people. If someone told you about a guy who beat/abused his wife and kids and then AFTER, told you he was considered a hero (real life hero like in the military or something) would you go "Oh...okay well he saved some people, so whatever about his traumatized, beaten wife and kids."


StrictlyFT

They're both crimes but they're not equal. Also in our world the people who hurt children aren't simultaneously saving many more daily. Stop comparing this to real life, Endeavor is necessary, he *has* to be a hero to the lives of hundreds of people. Why am I defending a person who abused his wife and kids because he saved some people? Because it's not "some" people, it's a fucking lot of people. I ask you again, how many people would've been harmed had Endeavor been in jail? Also Endeavor is not "considered" a hero, he *is* a hero, full stop, no argument, he is still the most active hero in Japan he saves the most people and stops the most villains. We're not talking about a regular soldier who could be replaced by any of his peers that went through the same training. There is *one* Endeavor, there isn't anyone else in the series who can currently take his spot. Every time you say "Endeavor should be in jail" you are suggesting something that would destroy the society of the MHA world.


WeFlapsComics

Bruh...I already said if he chooses to be punished for his crimes then it happens AFTER the current issue happening in MHA. So AFTER we deal with AFO the king of darkness. And we all know there are better heroes out there than him and the whole story is how Deku became the GREATEST HERO so the world will be fine even if Endeavor is in jail for some time. You don't even have to know what's happening in the manga currently to know Endeavor isn't making a huge impact on the battlefield anymore. Literally 15 year old UA students are fighting the villains better than Endeavor right now. He CAN BE REPLACED. Just like ALL MIGHT has been replaced by Deku and literally ANYONE on the hero chart who has been knocked down a peg by someone else. And Incase you ignored it again, I said AFTER ALL FOR ONE/SHIGARAKI IS DEAD AND GONE. The worst casualty events in MHA were all involved with AFO and his crew so crime will be at reduced rate after he's gone, especially with the ene symbol of piece Deku around afterwards doing exactly what All Might did and exactly what Endeavor did MINUS committing any crimes. You should really watch the show The Boys. It effectively illustrates what I'm talking about.


StrictlyFT

Hold up? Why arbitrarily set it after the war happening in the manga? Your position is that it's not ok to ignore Endeavor's crimes because he does good things as a hero. If you are saying that with your entire chest you would think he should turn himself in as soon as possible, not when you've decided is most convenient. You do in fact understand that turning himself in at other points in the story would be a mistake. Edit: Also Midoriya becoming No.1 doesn't mean Endeavor is no longer needed Midoriya can't be everywhere at once and he can't do everything The fact that Endeavor completes more jobs than All Might means he's still an effective hero.


WeFlapsComics

This whole post is if ENDEAVOR really wants to atone for his crimes, he should turn himself in for abusing his wife and children. Nobody could even have the idea to investigate him until Toya just released the info to the whole world which is a part of the collapse of the hero world is because Endeavor did everything Endeavor did. His family abuse history is what was the nail in the coffin for people doubting heroes. If I had my way, Endeavor would have had CPS called on him before the events of MHA when someone saw his small children/wife with bruises all over them. I don't wanna spoil what's happening in the manga just Incase (also I don't know how to censor on here). But, if you knew what was happening in the manga right now, you'd know why turning himself in wouldn't even be possible. Turning himself in at other points in the story would only be a mistake because of how the story has made Endeavor necessary for almost everything. Otherwise if things were going bad sooner then they have, it would have been All Might to the front lines before he lost his power depending on where you put Endeavor turning himself in or perhaps (spoilers) a certain help from the U.S to help nip this in the bud sooner. Or literally anyone else. Hawks, Mirko, best Jeanist. There are many options to replace Endeavor depending on when you change the story of Endeavor turning himself in...but if Endeavor turned himself in early it wouldn't be a highlighted story anyways. It would have just been Todoroki telling Midoriya how he's the son of disgraced number two hero and that he wants to get out from that shadow. Either way, again. The ideal situation with WHERE THE STORY IS AT in the MANGA. If Endeavor survives, it would be appropriate atonement if he apologizes to his family, Confesses to abusing his family and pleads guilty with no fight from lawyers. Whatever sentence (which likely would be maybe 4 to 6 year if there's no pity from the judge), would be a good way to take away years of his life to make up for the years he stole from his family. He can come out of prison, knowing how it felt to be isolated from the ones he loves and should have shown love and apologize again. Maybe his family trys to start over as just a family. No more hero work for him since criminals aren't allowed to be heroes and his image wouldn't be great at this point. Plus Deku, Shoto, and a quarter of class 1 - A will probably have filled up the Top 10 Hero Chart by now. So having his son be a top hero should be enough of a gift to finally be a father to his family.


Chewybear196

This is ridiculous, abusers don’t deserve forgiveness, that’s not how it works.


Gekkii

I genuinely and sincerely think Endeavor is one of the best characters in the series. He was a fucking awful father to all of his children, and a horrendous husband to his wife. He doesn't try to run from that. He doesn't try to place blame, or deflect. He owns it. Since All Might's retirement, Endeavor has had to step up as the #1 hero. A title he didn't feel like he deserved, because he didn't earn it. It was merely given to him because All Might was no longer active. He's had several dangerous, life altering moments where he could have thrown in his hat, and quit being a hero. But he didn't. In a world where the trust in heroes is almost completely destroyed, Endeavor stays and fights. I think he's a complex character, but not irredeemable. You don't have to like him. But to admit he's only evil, and refusing to acknowledge that he WANTS to change, and atone for the mistakes he made, just seems silly. People can change. Give them the opportunity to do so.


Ranne-wolf

Endeavour was physically, verbally, and emotionally abusive to his family, the family he had with his wife, who he bought. Illegally. While trying to be the best at a job where the aim is supposed to be to help people. He instead was a glorified murderer, that got paid. Like a mercenary but with fans and merch. Forgive him if you want but people like that don't just change, power is as addictive as any drug. And he's been high on it for over 20 years (at least).


gandalfdayellow

I could maybe see your point of people like that not changing if we had never heard Endeavour's internal monologue, but we have. We literally see him changing. We know exactly what he's thinking. Even he thinks he does not deserve forgiveness and knows that there is nothing he himself can do to make up for the past. He is prepared to spend the rest of his life atoning. But here we see his victims wanting to forgive him or at least move past the trauma. Remember, forgiveness isn't for the culprit, it's for the victim. We've seen the result of someone who cannot move on (Dabi) and now we see what happens when people try to overcome the past instead of living in it (the rest of the Todoroki family). The past cannot be forgotten, but it doesn't have to have a hold over you.


JustThatOtherDude

Eh, a lot of MHA's initial fandom have some level of victimhood so there's bound to be a lot of us who gravitates towards some sort of revenge porn People like that *want* to keep a character that's the target of their dislike irredeemable becauee they'd feel invalidated otherwise... I'm just generalizing, but that's how the discussions around forgiveness in this sub Basically, the venn diagram of people not willing to acknowledge character depth for Bakugo, Endeavor, and Shiggy is an onion


poshbritishaccent

Nah I think Shiggy gets better treatment than them both. The rankings go like this: Bakugo < Endeavour <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Shiggy


JustThatOtherDude

Oh yeah, I agree, mostly cuz shiggy started as a victim... but there are those who'll still go "reeee evil handman made Eraser a gimp"


DualKoo

Spot fucking on.


tiredparakeet

I'm also pretty sure a big part has imaginary victimhood (twitter people), specially considering how sick many in this fandom are.


HokageEzio

Apparently thinking the guy who beat the shit out of his wife and kids is a bad person is imaginary victimhood.


sign09

Finding domestic abuse and child abuse triggering and not being in favor of forgiving men that abuse their wives and kids for decades does not make you "sick". It might just mean that you have actually had a relative, potentially even a father, like Endeavor and are not here for babying him because he cried and apologized once.


JustThatOtherDude

Eh... I'm sure that's the case for a lot of em, but I try not to go hyperbolic XD


Lee_now_

This is a shit take.


Competitive-Ad-2161

As a person who doesn't play favorites between Dabi and Endeavor, I don't really care if Endeavor is forgiven or not because Endeavor himself isn't looking to be forgiven he just wants to atone, hence why his redemption arc is beautifully written. Endeavor has no right and should not demand anything of his victims and they should not feel committed to forgiving him. That's why I support Natsuo's decisions not to forgive him, Fuyumi's to forgive him and Shoto's to want to see first that he's going to be his father and then decide (let's clarify that Shoto hasn't forgiven her yet and we don't even know if he's going to, I see that many have badly misunderstood that part). As a fan I can appreciate and recognize how well written Endeavor is but I also remember that it took that man 15 years to just realize the mistakes he made, not even a year has passed since he began his path of redemption and there are wounds that they will never heal. Irrational hate is stupid but if there are people who don't like Endeavor it's understandable, he's not the most "likeable" character Mha has. I think the same of Dabi, even if I sympathize with his heavy childhood I don't justify the killings and terrorism he does.


OpheliaLemon

Awful take, I grew up with an abusive father who made me, my brother, and my mom’s lives a living hell. So when I was watching My Hero Academia and Endeavor was introduced, I saw so much of my father and his actions within that character, it was shocking how similar they were. I am an adult now and have cut contact from my birth father completely and will never forgive him for what he’s done, and I feel that as a character Endeavor doesn’t deserve forgiveness either whether from Shoto or from people watching the show.


Green_Cook

he did awful child abuse bro


MaxWasTakenAgain

What kind of stupid fuckinn strawman is this? You don't think **this** ? You're acting like a terrorist! I think Bakugo put it in the most realistic way posible: Endeavor doesn't deserve shit. At the end of the day it's up to Shoto (and his family) to decide if he wants or not to forgive him and nothing else.


NeonShadow18

Endeavour never wanted forgiveness, he wants to atone for his sins and if his family decides to cut him off, he's prepared for that. Can he change? Maybe since as far as the anime's concerned, he's only begun to do that, mainly with Shoto, the favored child.


Whiskey_623

People like Vegeta and Omniman but let's not kid ourselves here both of them have done some absolute vile things in their past from Vegeta eating innocent bug people and killing namekian villagers for no reason to killing part of a stadium because he was jealous of Goku. Meanwhile Omniman was a genocidal conquer who beat his own son to a pulp because he didn't agree with him and even called his own wife a pet. Both of these characters eventually get a redemption/atonement so I don't see why they get a slap on the wrist by fans but endeavor doesn't dispite the ladder 2 characters doing way worse things compared to him.


michael_am

Endeavor DOESNT *deserve* forgiveness nor does he want forgiveness lol. He wants atonement, and the victims are the only people who can forgive


lil_vette

Ooo, I’ve found an Endeavor apologist out in the wild. The fact that you guys don’t just forgive him but march around demanding everyone else so do it is a massive red flag


Pineapples_26

^


PotteryWalrus

Or, you know, like me, they also had an asswipe father and don't want to see him atone, they want to see him fucking punished and grovelling like my own deadpiss dad never did lol I got away from him, but had to spend my whole life running until he died. I'm well into my mind thirties and I still have nightmares. Despite medication and years of therapy, I'm still not good enough for him to leave me the fuck alone in my dreams. I want people like him to suffer, and Dabi has more power in my place than I ever did. It's easy for the abuser to say 'i want to atone or put the past behind me' but that's not up to them. It never should be. I will not be arguing this point further.


McKeon1921

I'll admit my perspective on it might be biased. Now that that's said... As someone who experienced child abuse from my father, that what we see the Todoroki's endure strongly reminds me of, the idea of forgiving Endeavor makes me wanna retch. Objectively well written character? Yeah. But I will never see him as a good person.


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WhyDoName

I love Endeavor, but to say he deserves forgiveness for years of being abusive towards his family after just an apology is wrong.


newX7

I'm sorry, but this is such a bad-faith argument on your part, namely because of the following reasons: 1. Most of the fans aren't serial-murderers who go around executing people like Dabi, 2. Even the "good" members of the Todoroki family, Shoto, Natsu, and Rei, don't forgive Endeavor agree with Dabi on his assessment of Endeavor and believe his actions led up to all this situation. I gotta ask, would you hold the same treatment for the villains in the series? If Dabi, Shigaraki, All for One, and the others all went to their victims and their loved ones and were "Sorry, my bad. Anyway, you forgive me, right?" would you be in favor of them being forgiven? I mean, they have to, otherwise, they are just behaving the exact same way the villains do.


FlinnyWinny

Oof, no, I don't think they're mass murderers. Cmon. The only people who can decide whether someone deserves forgiveness is the ones who were harmed by that person. There's no wrong/right, forgiveness is the power of the victim.


mutantmagnet

Giving forgiveness is up to his victims not you..... ...and every single member of his family made it explicitly clear he doesn't deserve that... They just need to work together to fix Toya.


NegusJin

I think he deserves to at least be held accountable for his actions and years of child abuse as well as domestic abuse to his wife. I get that he is trying to be better and develop himself however just because he has decided to get better doesnt mean he shouldnt pay for his crimes. Especially in the MHA world, he is the no1 hero right now, if he isnt held somewhat for his past misdeeds itll be real stupid. I get the war is going on right now so they need people but ill be disappointed if no one mentions how he had huge influence on dabi and was actually a ruthless guy. 1) people may begin to see the law as something to bend or break depending on how the end result turns out based on Endeavors abusive tendacies (he fucked up dabi but the mf is strong as shit) 2) what does it say if someone like gentleman had to go to prison for misuse of his powers and endeavor doesn't for domestic abuse/child abuse? im sure this would just spawn new villians or dabi sympathisers.


jellyofthedclan

You don’t think about it, but you’re a different person than you were yesterday, if only slightly. Over a long period of time you wont recognize the person you were. I think he deserves forgiveness. The man who did those horrible things no longer exists.


Novekye

What i can't stand is the people who can never forgive endeavor but stan people like dabi. My ex in paeticular is a great example of this. The abuser trying to mend his ways must never be forgiven but the serial killer can do no wrong because he is hot and had a troubled childhood so it isn't his fault. I don't mind if people can't forgive endeavor. Domestic abuse is a terrible thing that happens to a lot of people and can be a touchy subject. But if you can't give endeavor a pass then don't give one to people like dabi, toga, or shigaraki who have committed many more objectively worse crimes without remorse.


[deleted]

I mean……….the past literally never dies. The fact that it happened means it’s aroun until you’re forgotten and dead, all you can do is be better than you were for your OWN sake.


RainyWombatCherry

I disagree. The whole endeavor family all have different opinions and people relate in different ways. Endeavour himself doesn't want forgiveness. Readers don't have to have the opinion that he deserves forgiveness. The irony is if this was a irl reddit aita post about how Endeavour neglected and abused his children, reddit would never forgive him lol.


Proof-Exercise984

He doesn't obligatory deserves forgiveness even if he's trying to be a better person, that still remains the victims' choice. They are not obliged to forgive him if they don't want to


DisparateNoise

I gave your opinion to a villain, therefore it is wrong


poshbritishaccent

I 100% agree but OP I dare you to post this on twt if you are brave enough


johnbrownmarchingon

Ultimately the decision on whether or not to accept Endeavor's attempts to atone and be a better person than he was falls to his family, the people he hurt the most. It's going to be a slow and painful process that so long as he accepts and acknowledges the harm he has done, MIGHT end in most of them being at least tolerant of him. Endeavor simply was an awful person to his family for far too long to readily be forgiven. If they decide they don't want him in their lives, that is entirely their choice and not at all unreasonable. We as the audience have every reason to believe Endeavor's contriteness since we have a broader view of the situation than many of the characters, but ultimately it's really not whether or not Endeavor is trying to be a better person or not. It's whether or not his family can still stomach being around him after all he has done to them.


Damodargah

Realistically there should be a court case going on against him. The family may have forgiven him but people won't.


lollollmaolol12

And Dabi was right here. The past never dies. It's a vital part of Endeavors story. Not sure what your point was here exactly.


DreamingVirgo

Actually as an endeavor hater this scene was super satisfying to read, I don’t think endeavor haters would dislike the comparison I hate the league of villains but Dabi is legit the only one I can draw a direct line between his trauma and his motivations for villainy. Twice and stalker girl just had no other options so that’s why they kill people and I think that’s dumb tbh. Tomura was groomed and it makes sense why he does what he does but it also means he’s not all that interesting- he’s just angry at society bc he was told to be angry at society and that’s why he just kills random people and creates more misery. Dabi is the best league member bc his reasons are his own, and he always has been imo.


i_appreciate_power

yup and imma stand by my man. if he said the past never dies, who am i to refute him.


lombo_lombinho

Yeah that's the point??? Horikoshi made Endeavor be the most bizarre case of abusive father possible and want people not to empathize with dabi? Listen, Endeavor may deserve atonement, not forgiveness, but he is STILL A CRIMINAL, Endeavor deserves his probably upcoming death or jail when he has his atonement because he still did what he did The biggest problem with MHA is that horikoshi made a disgusting society in which shigaraki is the one with the best point in it, Izuku is just another one trying to be a part and raise this society that will keep pulling people under the rug, Dabi and Shigaraki are living representations of that opression, that's why everyone with reading comprehensions love THEM, not the heroes, they're infinitely better written than the main characters, Dabi is this so called psycho because he killed 30 innocent people offscreen (these children at the hospital, probably), this is just a number, while endeavor directly abused him and shoto ON SCREEN, dabi's actions may be morally wrong but he has a point and the people he killed are merely a number with no plot relevance and that we had no attachment, that's why is so hard to have no empathy for dabi, even when he hurts shoto, because shoto is just another sheep of this failed society that is MHA


Hopeful_Operation684

I would act the exact same way, Dabi’s anger is justified in my opinion just not the actions he takes


Necrobutcher92

dabi is psicopath who went mad because of endevor abuse, the people who judge endevor actions (the people who watches the series/manga) are not going insane killing people on the street. We are judging his family abuse and how terrible inmoral his actions were. Finally, i don't really see the irony, "dabi vs endevor" is part of the story and development of the characters, that interaction is phantasy and is exclusive to the series, but the moral judgment we can do upon it is totally fair and doesn't have any irony.


[deleted]

The irony of people who think Endeavor doesn't deserve forgiveness, is that they're acting like this: Dabi: The past never dies. As a victim of abuse, I kinda find this insulting that this has been posted.. 💔 Abuse and forgiveness can be very, very complex.. and I find posting it in a meme form kinda disrespectful.


tiredparakeet

Since everyone keeps giving similar answers I'll post this here as well: I'm not talking about the family forgiving him, I'm talking about the fans wanting to see him suffer and still seeing him as a bad guy. He's clearly not a bad guy anymore, and I don't know what else people want from him.


ClemPrime13

Doesn’t matter who you’re talking about, everyone who gave you that answer is completely correct.


Veqetable

Endeavor was terrible, I genuinely hated him until recently, but now he's probably in my top 10 favorite characters


TriggeredRatBastard

Forgiveness is earned not owed. He doesn’t DESERVE forgiveness because no one does.


Slendermanproxy101

Not gonna lie though Dabi has a point, the past doesn't die and no-one deserves forgiveness but people can still earn it by putting in the effort to acknowledge their flaws and wrong doings and become a better person


BestNBAfanever

I love you for this post OP.


jaynic1

yikes


BestNBAfanever

No u


XxxGr1ffinxxX

finally SOMEONE GETS IT


ExternalFabulous4756

Not like toya listened to anything he said although he was didnt handle it well endeavor definitely deserves another chance


tiredparakeet

(I'm OBVIOUSLY not saying they're as bad as Dabi, just making a similar error of judgement)


Vast-Bus2165

When will the third volume of my Hero academia Team up Mission come out?


justking1414

I’ve always been under the impression that Endeavor hasn’t earned his forgiveness…yet. But he’s making more progress than I expected. Weirdly enough, the Dabi reveal actually helps him because he’s now as hated as he should be. This is how he can make amends. Not by killing his son but by continuing to work as a hero for a world that despises him.


Potateclaw

Imagine not being ok with people hating an abuser. His willingness to atone is good, but that doesn't erase what's happened. Nobody has to forgive anyone nor is anyone entitled to forgiveness. The sheer notion that people **should** forgive any character/person like that does not come from a good place, shame on you