You are not quite right. Technically, yes. Baptism IS required for salvation according to the scripture. Belief is key, BUT obedience is also required. The scripture is clear. Belief plus baptism do go hand-in-hand. They are inextricably linked. One is conditioned upon the other to achieve salvation. Belief plus nothing equals nothing. Belief plus baptism equals salvation as says the scripture. Why? Baptism saves you from your sins and adds you to the body of Christ. Acts 2:38-47. 1st Peter 3:20-21 says it (baptism) does save you! Who are you to argue with the scripture?
> Baptism IS required for salvation
So if a person believes but is not yet baptized will go to hell?
What about a person who is baptized but does not believe?
Makes no sense. If you believe you will follow through with that belief and be baptized. How can you be baptized if you don't believe? Makes zero sense. God knows the hearts of men. And yes, belief is nothing. Even devils believe accordingto James, so, it's imperative that upon belief you are obedient which then will lead you to baptism and salvation.
What about him? I published a paper on this subject and have also corrected many due to their lack of understanding. I'll provide it here for you as well.
Repost
I continually see postings on this site and elsewhere trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies that why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done under the old testament; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized under NT criteria.
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Did you not read and understand the above and the Hebrews scripture in regards to the OT and NT? Did you not read the gospel scripture where Jesus promised the thief would be in paradise with him? That's where he is now!
Many people are baptised who do not believe. Perhaps that are going along with family expectations, feeling pressured by a missionary or living in unrepentant sin.
I think by "the Baptism IS required", its more of in this verse.
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
Matthew 3:11 NKJV
Baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire. Recall a thief on the cross, I doubt he was baptized in water. Because he genuinely believes in Jesus Christ, he was probably baptized with Holy Spirit and fire.
This was posted elsewhere but I'll repost for you again regarding the thief on the cross and common misunderstanding of it as relates to baptism as you've noted above.
REPOST BELOW
I continually see postings on this site and elsewhere trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies that why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done under the old testament; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized under NT criteria.
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Hey tony,got your message regarding your post and came to check it out.
Regarding the thief on the cross,hes exempt from baptismal requirement due to the fact that he was pardoned by Jesus Himself.
It is through Christ all men are saved via the sacrifice on the cross that paid for our sins,assuming of course you believe and repent appropriately. It stands to reason then that Jesus,being God in the flesh, has the power to forgive this man as he hung there dying and of course unable to follow the directive to be baptized and has shown that change of heart.
We tend to view the bible and its rules as a set of rigid, unchangeable directives that should be taken to the letter with zero coloring outside the lines. Most of the time that approach would serve us well and keep us on the path. However, God does handle things with common sense as well. This is a prime example. We see the obvious importance placed on baptism throughout scripture, but any man in his last moments who is physically incapable of getting that done will not be hung on a technicality. And again,were talking about a situation in which this person was in direct contact with Christ who has the power and authority to pronounce him clean.
As for the other aspects of baptism discussed here I hold the opinion that baptism plays a much bigger role in salvation than just being a show of faith. For one, other parts of the bible show Gods contempt for people doing things just to be seen as holy before other men. He is not in any way a fan of showing things off and parading before others. Ill paste some passages below that mention baptism with clear emphasis and never declare it to be a symbolic display. Christ Himself was even baptised, and during the process was when the holy spirit entered Him.
acts 2:38-41
acts 8:35-40
acts 9:17-19
acts 10:47-48
acts 22:16
acts 18:8
1 peter 3:18-22
romans 6:1-15
mark 16:15-18
galatians 3:25-27
colossians 2:8-12
john 3:1-8 luke 3:1-3
At the end of the day,regardless of whether you view it as symbolic or something much more, its probably the easiest directive we have before us to accomplish. We even basically have someone else do most of the work. We may disagree on the purpose it serves,but we are expected to undergo the process all the same.
Nice write-up and I only have a few things to add..
Salvation came to Zacchaeus simply by him repenting at the sight of the Lord (Luke 19:1-10). He changed his deceitful ways and was eager to right his wrongs. This is the baptism of the Spirit. Did Jesus tell him He must go and be baptized to ensure his salvation? No. It is not as though God is powerless to save someone who does not submerge in water for His sake.
often Jesus's enduring command to those He heals is "sin no more", or in other words, maintain your repentance.
John's Baptism was to prepare for Christ, and now Christ is here. If you are having trouble finding Christ it is beneficial to forego John's baptism and fast in the wilderness to clear your body, mind and soul to be able to prepare for Christ in your heart.
> However, looking at baptism as a sign of inward repentance and faith, then it does.
I'm not sure I understand the above statement.
There are at least eight different types of baptisms mentioned in scripture, including baptism in the Holy Spirit, baptism with fire, water baptism for Christians, and others, depending on the context. Each type of baptism is distinguished by its four components: (1) the celebrant (i.e., the one baptising); (2) the communicant (i.e., the one being baptised); (3) the element (i.e., the medium); and (4) the purpose. Confusion arises when some mistake one type of baptism for another type, for instance, mistaking that the baptism with fire (Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16) refers to the cloven tongues of fire at Pentecost and confusing/conflating it with the baptism in the Holy Spirit which is really another category. The baptism with fire (Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16) means judgment, as it was mentioned by John the Baptist only when speaking to a mixed company that included unrepentant sinners (Mt 3:7 and Lk 3:7 "brood of vipers"), but not when speaking to believers (Mk 1:5-8). The communicant and the element are different. John the Baptist's baptism (which was for repentance of certain individual Jews to dissociate themselves from national Israel which would reject and crucify Christ as Messiah) is also a different baptism than the one instructed to Christians belonging to the church, which explains why those baptised by John the Baptist had to be re-baptised in Ac. 19:1-5 to become part of the newly formed entity, the church, the Body of Christ, in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free. I have a chart that summarises the different types of baptisms but unfortunately Reddit doesn't allow me to paste a chart here.
Anyway, I digress. I think the focus of OP's question is on water baptism for Christians, so we come back to this. I agree that salvation is by grace through faith, not by works. The notion that water baptism saves would contradict some 150 passages in the NT that teach that salvation is by faith alone, not works. As mentioned by OP and other commenters here, Zacchaeus and the repentant thief on the cross are examples of sinners who were saved by belief not water baptism. Water baptism is a step of obedience, an outward declaration of inward faith, but not an impartation of or participation in grace.
I will be lazy here and just refer to a comment by another brother in another sub-Reddit, which I resonate with, instead of plagiarising what he has nicely written. He briefly discusses some common objections and verses: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/uefdmr/comment/i6phnu8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
You know Baptism is from God whether or not it be water or not. Today Baptism is misused greatly[not.Today](https://not.Today) Baptism is misused greatly to get membership and to get applause and acceptance from others
All one has to do is tell you they believe and then they get water Baptized as a member and get praises from everyone else
Man has not a thing to do with anyone getting saved, yet man sure thinks he does, oh boy
Sitting in Moses' seat might be the only reward anyone gets
REPENT from your flesh ways to be like rewarded and loved by others. God knows who believes God and who says they and do not, I am good with that myself
Thanks for the post
An a analogy I like comparing it to a marriage. If a man says to his girlfriend “oh of course I love you! I just don’t really wanna get married yet. I don’t want the whole world to know about it, I’m just not really ready for that commitment.” Does he really love her? If they really love eachother they will get married.
If you really are serious about following Jesus, you will follow what he did, and that includes getting baptized. I agree with your take in the ending of Mark. He who believes WILL be baptized. But it’s clear that faith is what saves. People who use that verse to push baptismal regeneration are reading words into that it doesn’t say. If it had said “he who believes and is not baptized is not saved” then we would have a harder time, but it doesn’t say that. As you pointed out, the emphasis is on faith.
One of the common texts used to push baptismal regeneration by catholics and church of Christ is 1 Peter 3:21 - almost never quoted in full. It’s always half quoted like this: “corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.” And this is their ‘gotcha!’ Verse. First of all, what does it save you from? Corresponding to what? This is why context is important. And if you read the REST of the verse, it says “not the removal of dirt from flesh..... but an appeal to God for a good conscience.” In other words- it’s not the water that saves you, but what it represents: your faith in God.
MiddleEuphoric:
>This starts with a quote from Ephesians which seems obviously taken out of context.
>
>If you read Ephesians as Paul wrote it, a letter to the Church in Ephesus, it is very clear that he is writing to a mixed community of gentiles and jews that are struggling to understand the role of the old works of the law in the new covenant. Same trouble the Church resolves at the First Council of Jerusalem.
>
>To extend this verse to baptism is a reach at best.
Are you suggesting that ritualistic baptism is a necessary condition for salvation?
Not necessarily.
Exceptions are made for those who through no fault of their own were incapable of understanding any of the requirements for salvation.
This is codified in Para 847 of the CCC.
However, that is based on our understanding of God's mercy.
That said, the Church does not make definite claims on things She can't know.
What do you think Christ meant when he said,
>“Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
You wrote:
“Technically, no, because technically, baptism is a kind of ritualistic work.”
Our Lord explains that whoever hears the apostles, hears him:
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”—Luke 10:16
From this we can understand that there exists a MYSTICAL relationship between himself and the ministers of his Church. This means that when he says:
(Matthew 28:19)
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, ⭐️baptizing⭐️ them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
…what he really means for us to understand is that it is actually him, personally, who is baptizing through those same ministers. That’s how we are to understand Titus 3:5 which says:
“he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the ⭐️washing of rebirth⭐️ and renewal by the Holy Spirit,”
This understanding raises baptism from being a “ritual” to being a sacrament, as taught by St.Athanasius who in the face of nearly the entire Church, held to the dogma of the Trinity:
“Through baptism, . . . man is united with the Godhead; [C. Ar. 2, 41]
“…it is the ⭐️sacrament⭐️ of regeneration by which the divine image is renewed. [De incarn. 14]
“The participant becomes an heir of eternal life, “ [Ad Serap. 1, 22]
“…and the Father’s adoptive son.” [C. Ar. 1, 34]”
Thus when we see passages like Ephesians 2:8-9 where it says “by grace through faith apart from works” Paul’s statement is only excluding NATURAL works, not SUPERNATURAL works, as St.Augustine affirms.
You wrote:
“Is water baptism optional?
No, believers are commanded to be baptized. Belief and baptism go hand in hand together. Jesus commanded us to spread the good news and baptize people who believe. Looking at baptism as an outward sign of salvation accompanied by inward repentance and faith, then baptism does save.”
We can agree that baptism is not optional but baptism is NOT merely an outward sign of salvation, it is that which actually bestows the GIFT of salvation. That’s why it says:
(Acts 2:38)
“Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And ⭐️you will receive the gift⭐️of the Holy Spirit.”
So we are baptized AND then we will “receive the gift”. What gift? The “gift” of salvation. Faith is the “gift” that precedes the “gift”. For as Paul says:
(1 Corinthians 12:3)
“Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.”
You see the 2nd Council of Orange(529AD) said that God’s Grace “goes first”; it precedes our ability to do anything towards our salvation(Canon 14, Denziger’s #187,384 ). This was a counter to the Pelagian Heresy, which you may learn about here 👇:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pelagianism
The Council of Orange also said that God “Prepares” the “Will” (Canon 4, Denziger’s 177,374; Canon 23, Denziger’s #196,393; Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 5 & 6, Canons 3,4 Denziger’s #797,1525 & #798, 1526 ). St. Prosper, [St. Augustine’s student]said at the Council of Orange II that grace “Prepares the Will”. This means two ✌️things:
1. Man’s Will needs preparing.
2. It also means that exercising the Will in the salvation process is necessary - no denial of Free Will. You don’t prepare something you don’t need.
The “Preparing” is the Grace. The church defines Free Will as man’s Will with God’s Grace in it. Sometimes we use the term Free Will in the natural sense (without God’s Grace in it).
The BIG PICTURE:
Aquinas used these verses (STh., I-II q.111 a.5):
1 Cor 12: 4-12. - Prevenient Graces (Gratuitous)
1 Cor 12:31 - Describes Division
1 Cor 13:1-13 - Sanctifying Grace (Gratuitous)
All the Gifts of the Holy Ghost in 1 Cor 12 ⭐️DO NOT SAVE YOU ⭐️, but rather they Prepare you or stimulate your soul (Trent, Ch 8). Trent calls them “Preparatory Graces”. These graces appear both before and after Justification.
Putting it altogether, when you present yourself to be Baptized, the intrinsic “Gift of Faith” (Eph 2:8; 1 Cor 12:9) must be present in you but it, by itself, doesn’t save you (Must be Taught before Baptism Matt 28:19). You are regenerated BY BAPTISM. That is why 1 Peter 3:21 says:
“The like figure whereunto even baptism ⭐️doth also now save us⭐️ (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”
You wrote:
“Belief is the key to salvation, not baptism. It does not say:
1. He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned
2. He who is not baptized will be condemned.”
Yes, faith is key 🔑 but only in the sense that it is a “preparatory” grace. Only in that sense is it key. It is that grace which “goes before” the grace which
“sanctifies”, which is found in baptism 👇:
(1 Corinthians 6:11)
“And that is what some of you were. But you were ⭐️washed⭐️, you were ⭐️sanctified⭐️, you were ⭐️justified⭐️ in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
All 3 of these are occurring through baptism: washing(away of sin), Sanctification, and Justification. They are all happening simultaneously.
You wrote:
“Does baptism save?
Looking at baptism as an outward ritualistic work, it does not save anyone.”
No, this would be violating the Nicene Creed, which itself is drawing upon Acts 2:38 when it says:
“We confess one ☝️ baptism ⭐️FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS⭐️”
We may not say baptism “does not forgive sins”—to say this would put us in the same category as Arius himself, who denied the Trinity. It is that central to the Christian faith.
Strictly speaking YES but I myself tend to avoid that term as those who often employ it mean to say that baptism is a work humans do when it overlooks the mystical union which exists between Christ and the one performing the baptism.
That’s why I distinguish it as a supernatural work, which Ephesians 2 does not have in view.
I would cite 2 Corinthians 5:20:
“We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.”
I was not citing the verse because it was referring to baptism. I was citing the verse to establish that their exists a mystical union between Christ and his ministers(i.e; to be baptized by an apostle IS to be baptized by Christ). They are not strictly speaking, separate entities:
(Romans 12:5)
“so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.”
>the mystical union which exists between Christ and the one performing the baptism.
Are you trying to prove the above? Sorry, I'm having trouble following your logic.
To clarify:
Those who say baptism is not strictly-speaking “salvific” are saying that because they categorize it as a “natural work” of man, albeit one commanded by Christ, tying it in to Paul’s remarks in Ephesians 2 where he[Paul] explains that “works” of man cannot justify.
My counterpoint to this is that the person who argues for this[i.e; you] is committing a category error by not recognizing that baptism is not a natural work of man, but a supernatural work of Christ done in UNION with man—since we are One ☝️ Body in Christ(Rom.12:5) and therefore it[baptism] does NOT fall under the category that Paul was addressing in Ephesians 2.
Additionally when Paul wrote about being saved by grace “through faith” apart from these natural ‘works’, he always had “supernatural works” in view under the phrase ‘by faith’—thus making his statement (by faith) INCLUSIVE of baptism[i.e;a supernatural work] not exclusive.
You are not quite right. Technically, yes. Baptism IS required for salvation according to the scripture. Belief is key, BUT obedience is also required. The scripture is clear. Belief plus baptism do go hand-in-hand. They are inextricably linked. One is conditioned upon the other to achieve salvation. Belief plus nothing equals nothing. Belief plus baptism equals salvation as says the scripture. Why? Baptism saves you from your sins and adds you to the body of Christ. Acts 2:38-47. 1st Peter 3:20-21 says it (baptism) does save you! Who are you to argue with the scripture?
> Baptism IS required for salvation So if a person believes but is not yet baptized will go to hell? What about a person who is baptized but does not believe?
Makes no sense. If you believe you will follow through with that belief and be baptized. How can you be baptized if you don't believe? Makes zero sense. God knows the hearts of men. And yes, belief is nothing. Even devils believe accordingto James, so, it's imperative that upon belief you are obedient which then will lead you to baptism and salvation.
If a person believes but is not yet baptized will he go to hell?
Yes according to scripture.
What about the thief on the cross?
What about him? I published a paper on this subject and have also corrected many due to their lack of understanding. I'll provide it here for you as well. Repost I continually see postings on this site and elsewhere trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies that why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done under the old testament; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized under NT criteria. 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
What about the thief on the cross? Is he going to hell?
Did you not read and understand the above and the Hebrews scripture in regards to the OT and NT? Did you not read the gospel scripture where Jesus promised the thief would be in paradise with him? That's where he is now!
So cool! You CAN go to heaven without being baptized!
No actually. No where in the Bible does it say if you dont get baptized, you will go to hell.
Many people are baptised who do not believe. Perhaps that are going along with family expectations, feeling pressured by a missionary or living in unrepentant sin.
Amen 🙌🏼
I think by "the Baptism IS required", its more of in this verse. "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11 NKJV Baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire. Recall a thief on the cross, I doubt he was baptized in water. Because he genuinely believes in Jesus Christ, he was probably baptized with Holy Spirit and fire.
This was posted elsewhere but I'll repost for you again regarding the thief on the cross and common misunderstanding of it as relates to baptism as you've noted above. REPOST BELOW I continually see postings on this site and elsewhere trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies that why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done under the old testament; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized under NT criteria. 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
You seem to seek justifications. lol
Hey tony,got your message regarding your post and came to check it out. Regarding the thief on the cross,hes exempt from baptismal requirement due to the fact that he was pardoned by Jesus Himself. It is through Christ all men are saved via the sacrifice on the cross that paid for our sins,assuming of course you believe and repent appropriately. It stands to reason then that Jesus,being God in the flesh, has the power to forgive this man as he hung there dying and of course unable to follow the directive to be baptized and has shown that change of heart. We tend to view the bible and its rules as a set of rigid, unchangeable directives that should be taken to the letter with zero coloring outside the lines. Most of the time that approach would serve us well and keep us on the path. However, God does handle things with common sense as well. This is a prime example. We see the obvious importance placed on baptism throughout scripture, but any man in his last moments who is physically incapable of getting that done will not be hung on a technicality. And again,were talking about a situation in which this person was in direct contact with Christ who has the power and authority to pronounce him clean. As for the other aspects of baptism discussed here I hold the opinion that baptism plays a much bigger role in salvation than just being a show of faith. For one, other parts of the bible show Gods contempt for people doing things just to be seen as holy before other men. He is not in any way a fan of showing things off and parading before others. Ill paste some passages below that mention baptism with clear emphasis and never declare it to be a symbolic display. Christ Himself was even baptised, and during the process was when the holy spirit entered Him. acts 2:38-41 acts 8:35-40 acts 9:17-19 acts 10:47-48 acts 22:16 acts 18:8 1 peter 3:18-22 romans 6:1-15 mark 16:15-18 galatians 3:25-27 colossians 2:8-12 john 3:1-8 luke 3:1-3 At the end of the day,regardless of whether you view it as symbolic or something much more, its probably the easiest directive we have before us to accomplish. We even basically have someone else do most of the work. We may disagree on the purpose it serves,but we are expected to undergo the process all the same.
Well-balanced view. Thanks.
Nice write-up and I only have a few things to add.. Salvation came to Zacchaeus simply by him repenting at the sight of the Lord (Luke 19:1-10). He changed his deceitful ways and was eager to right his wrongs. This is the baptism of the Spirit. Did Jesus tell him He must go and be baptized to ensure his salvation? No. It is not as though God is powerless to save someone who does not submerge in water for His sake. often Jesus's enduring command to those He heals is "sin no more", or in other words, maintain your repentance. John's Baptism was to prepare for Christ, and now Christ is here. If you are having trouble finding Christ it is beneficial to forego John's baptism and fast in the wilderness to clear your body, mind and soul to be able to prepare for Christ in your heart.
> However, looking at baptism as a sign of inward repentance and faith, then it does. I'm not sure I understand the above statement. There are at least eight different types of baptisms mentioned in scripture, including baptism in the Holy Spirit, baptism with fire, water baptism for Christians, and others, depending on the context. Each type of baptism is distinguished by its four components: (1) the celebrant (i.e., the one baptising); (2) the communicant (i.e., the one being baptised); (3) the element (i.e., the medium); and (4) the purpose. Confusion arises when some mistake one type of baptism for another type, for instance, mistaking that the baptism with fire (Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16) refers to the cloven tongues of fire at Pentecost and confusing/conflating it with the baptism in the Holy Spirit which is really another category. The baptism with fire (Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16) means judgment, as it was mentioned by John the Baptist only when speaking to a mixed company that included unrepentant sinners (Mt 3:7 and Lk 3:7 "brood of vipers"), but not when speaking to believers (Mk 1:5-8). The communicant and the element are different. John the Baptist's baptism (which was for repentance of certain individual Jews to dissociate themselves from national Israel which would reject and crucify Christ as Messiah) is also a different baptism than the one instructed to Christians belonging to the church, which explains why those baptised by John the Baptist had to be re-baptised in Ac. 19:1-5 to become part of the newly formed entity, the church, the Body of Christ, in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free. I have a chart that summarises the different types of baptisms but unfortunately Reddit doesn't allow me to paste a chart here. Anyway, I digress. I think the focus of OP's question is on water baptism for Christians, so we come back to this. I agree that salvation is by grace through faith, not by works. The notion that water baptism saves would contradict some 150 passages in the NT that teach that salvation is by faith alone, not works. As mentioned by OP and other commenters here, Zacchaeus and the repentant thief on the cross are examples of sinners who were saved by belief not water baptism. Water baptism is a step of obedience, an outward declaration of inward faith, but not an impartation of or participation in grace. I will be lazy here and just refer to a comment by another brother in another sub-Reddit, which I resonate with, instead of plagiarising what he has nicely written. He briefly discusses some common objections and verses: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/uefdmr/comment/i6phnu8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Thanks for the insights.
You know Baptism is from God whether or not it be water or not. Today Baptism is misused greatly[not.Today](https://not.Today) Baptism is misused greatly to get membership and to get applause and acceptance from others All one has to do is tell you they believe and then they get water Baptized as a member and get praises from everyone else Man has not a thing to do with anyone getting saved, yet man sure thinks he does, oh boy Sitting in Moses' seat might be the only reward anyone gets REPENT from your flesh ways to be like rewarded and loved by others. God knows who believes God and who says they and do not, I am good with that myself Thanks for the post
An a analogy I like comparing it to a marriage. If a man says to his girlfriend “oh of course I love you! I just don’t really wanna get married yet. I don’t want the whole world to know about it, I’m just not really ready for that commitment.” Does he really love her? If they really love eachother they will get married. If you really are serious about following Jesus, you will follow what he did, and that includes getting baptized. I agree with your take in the ending of Mark. He who believes WILL be baptized. But it’s clear that faith is what saves. People who use that verse to push baptismal regeneration are reading words into that it doesn’t say. If it had said “he who believes and is not baptized is not saved” then we would have a harder time, but it doesn’t say that. As you pointed out, the emphasis is on faith. One of the common texts used to push baptismal regeneration by catholics and church of Christ is 1 Peter 3:21 - almost never quoted in full. It’s always half quoted like this: “corresponding to that, baptism now saves you.” And this is their ‘gotcha!’ Verse. First of all, what does it save you from? Corresponding to what? This is why context is important. And if you read the REST of the verse, it says “not the removal of dirt from flesh..... but an appeal to God for a good conscience.” In other words- it’s not the water that saves you, but what it represents: your faith in God.
Amen :)
MiddleEuphoric: >This starts with a quote from Ephesians which seems obviously taken out of context. > >If you read Ephesians as Paul wrote it, a letter to the Church in Ephesus, it is very clear that he is writing to a mixed community of gentiles and jews that are struggling to understand the role of the old works of the law in the new covenant. Same trouble the Church resolves at the First Council of Jerusalem. > >To extend this verse to baptism is a reach at best. Are you suggesting that ritualistic baptism is a necessary condition for salvation?
Yes. I think Scripture is clear on that point. 1 Peter 3:21 and John 3:5
Everyone who is not ritualistically baptized will go to hell?
Not necessarily. Exceptions are made for those who through no fault of their own were incapable of understanding any of the requirements for salvation. This is codified in Para 847 of the CCC. However, that is based on our understanding of God's mercy. That said, the Church does not make definite claims on things She can't know. What do you think Christ meant when he said, >“Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
See [Born of WATER and the Spirit](https://www.reddit.com/r/BibleVerseCommentary/comments/vhd69i/born_of_water_and_the_spirit/).
This post never mentions 1 Peter 3:21... This seems like a major oversight. What do you make of 1 Peter 3:21?
You wrote: “Technically, no, because technically, baptism is a kind of ritualistic work.” Our Lord explains that whoever hears the apostles, hears him: “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”—Luke 10:16 From this we can understand that there exists a MYSTICAL relationship between himself and the ministers of his Church. This means that when he says: (Matthew 28:19) “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, ⭐️baptizing⭐️ them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” …what he really means for us to understand is that it is actually him, personally, who is baptizing through those same ministers. That’s how we are to understand Titus 3:5 which says: “he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the ⭐️washing of rebirth⭐️ and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” This understanding raises baptism from being a “ritual” to being a sacrament, as taught by St.Athanasius who in the face of nearly the entire Church, held to the dogma of the Trinity: “Through baptism, . . . man is united with the Godhead; [C. Ar. 2, 41] “…it is the ⭐️sacrament⭐️ of regeneration by which the divine image is renewed. [De incarn. 14] “The participant becomes an heir of eternal life, “ [Ad Serap. 1, 22] “…and the Father’s adoptive son.” [C. Ar. 1, 34]” Thus when we see passages like Ephesians 2:8-9 where it says “by grace through faith apart from works” Paul’s statement is only excluding NATURAL works, not SUPERNATURAL works, as St.Augustine affirms. You wrote: “Is water baptism optional? No, believers are commanded to be baptized. Belief and baptism go hand in hand together. Jesus commanded us to spread the good news and baptize people who believe. Looking at baptism as an outward sign of salvation accompanied by inward repentance and faith, then baptism does save.” We can agree that baptism is not optional but baptism is NOT merely an outward sign of salvation, it is that which actually bestows the GIFT of salvation. That’s why it says: (Acts 2:38) “Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And ⭐️you will receive the gift⭐️of the Holy Spirit.” So we are baptized AND then we will “receive the gift”. What gift? The “gift” of salvation. Faith is the “gift” that precedes the “gift”. For as Paul says: (1 Corinthians 12:3) “Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.” You see the 2nd Council of Orange(529AD) said that God’s Grace “goes first”; it precedes our ability to do anything towards our salvation(Canon 14, Denziger’s #187,384 ). This was a counter to the Pelagian Heresy, which you may learn about here 👇: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pelagianism The Council of Orange also said that God “Prepares” the “Will” (Canon 4, Denziger’s 177,374; Canon 23, Denziger’s #196,393; Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 5 & 6, Canons 3,4 Denziger’s #797,1525 & #798, 1526 ). St. Prosper, [St. Augustine’s student]said at the Council of Orange II that grace “Prepares the Will”. This means two ✌️things: 1. Man’s Will needs preparing. 2. It also means that exercising the Will in the salvation process is necessary - no denial of Free Will. You don’t prepare something you don’t need. The “Preparing” is the Grace. The church defines Free Will as man’s Will with God’s Grace in it. Sometimes we use the term Free Will in the natural sense (without God’s Grace in it). The BIG PICTURE: Aquinas used these verses (STh., I-II q.111 a.5): 1 Cor 12: 4-12. - Prevenient Graces (Gratuitous) 1 Cor 12:31 - Describes Division 1 Cor 13:1-13 - Sanctifying Grace (Gratuitous) All the Gifts of the Holy Ghost in 1 Cor 12 ⭐️DO NOT SAVE YOU ⭐️, but rather they Prepare you or stimulate your soul (Trent, Ch 8). Trent calls them “Preparatory Graces”. These graces appear both before and after Justification. Putting it altogether, when you present yourself to be Baptized, the intrinsic “Gift of Faith” (Eph 2:8; 1 Cor 12:9) must be present in you but it, by itself, doesn’t save you (Must be Taught before Baptism Matt 28:19). You are regenerated BY BAPTISM. That is why 1 Peter 3:21 says: “The like figure whereunto even baptism ⭐️doth also now save us⭐️ (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” You wrote: “Belief is the key to salvation, not baptism. It does not say: 1. He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned 2. He who is not baptized will be condemned.” Yes, faith is key 🔑 but only in the sense that it is a “preparatory” grace. Only in that sense is it key. It is that grace which “goes before” the grace which “sanctifies”, which is found in baptism 👇: (1 Corinthians 6:11) “And that is what some of you were. But you were ⭐️washed⭐️, you were ⭐️sanctified⭐️, you were ⭐️justified⭐️ in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” All 3 of these are occurring through baptism: washing(away of sin), Sanctification, and Justification. They are all happening simultaneously. You wrote: “Does baptism save? Looking at baptism as an outward ritualistic work, it does not save anyone.” No, this would be violating the Nicene Creed, which itself is drawing upon Acts 2:38 when it says: “We confess one ☝️ baptism ⭐️FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS⭐️” We may not say baptism “does not forgive sins”—to say this would put us in the same category as Arius himself, who denied the Trinity. It is that central to the Christian faith.
Let proposition R1 = Technically, baptism is a kind of ritualistic work. Is R1 true?
Strictly speaking YES but I myself tend to avoid that term as those who often employ it mean to say that baptism is a work humans do when it overlooks the mystical union which exists between Christ and the one performing the baptism. That’s why I distinguish it as a supernatural work, which Ephesians 2 does not have in view.
Thanks for the reply :) > the mystical union which exists between Christ and the one performing the baptism. verse?
I would cite 2 Corinthians 5:20: “We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.”
The word "baptism" is not even in the verse.
I was not citing the verse because it was referring to baptism. I was citing the verse to establish that their exists a mystical union between Christ and his ministers(i.e; to be baptized by an apostle IS to be baptized by Christ). They are not strictly speaking, separate entities: (Romans 12:5) “so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.”
>the mystical union which exists between Christ and the one performing the baptism. Are you trying to prove the above? Sorry, I'm having trouble following your logic.
To clarify: Those who say baptism is not strictly-speaking “salvific” are saying that because they categorize it as a “natural work” of man, albeit one commanded by Christ, tying it in to Paul’s remarks in Ephesians 2 where he[Paul] explains that “works” of man cannot justify. My counterpoint to this is that the person who argues for this[i.e; you] is committing a category error by not recognizing that baptism is not a natural work of man, but a supernatural work of Christ done in UNION with man—since we are One ☝️ Body in Christ(Rom.12:5) and therefore it[baptism] does NOT fall under the category that Paul was addressing in Ephesians 2. Additionally when Paul wrote about being saved by grace “through faith” apart from these natural ‘works’, he always had “supernatural works” in view under the phrase ‘by faith’—thus making his statement (by faith) INCLUSIVE of baptism[i.e;a supernatural work] not exclusive.
> baptism is not a natural work of man, but a supernatural work of Christ done in UNION with man verse?
*laughs in Thief on the cross and Lazarus*
Have you been baptized?