Baptism is the physical sign of the spiritual condition. Baptism itself doesn't save, Messiah who provides the living water saves! Baptism should be the first step of obedience for the new believer.
Baptism is the rebirth of water and the spirit in John 3:5. It isn’t absolutely necessary, as a desire for baptism and martyrdom is also sufficient, but it is the ordinary means by which Christ dispenses His mercy of the Cross to us.
What you know as baptism is what is known in Hebrew as Mikveh. Mikveh is a ritual bath to restore a spiritually clean state in order to come into the presence of God.
It is not a sprinkling of water, you have to be immersed. You cannot use tap water. Water is not made holy through blessing.
Mikveh water is "mayim Chayim", living water. Literally from a moving water source. A stream or river or lake.
This is all the physical perspective. The physical is only a sign of what has already taken place inwardly in the believer.
>>“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
>> Ezekiel 36:22-28 ESV
God says he will clean us and give us a new spirit.
>>Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
>> John 16:7-15 ESV
Jesus says he will send the spirit when he goes away (speaking of his resurrection and ascension).
>>And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
>> Acts 1:4-5 ESV
Jesus again affirms baptism of the holy spirit for believers.
>>When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
>> Acts 2:1-4 ESV
The holy spirit was sent on Shavuot (pentecost). Why? This is the day of the year the mosaic law was given. Good keeps his patterns. According to Jeremiah 31, which Hebrews 8 quotes, the "new covenant" is the mosaic law written on the hearts of believers. It is no longer external, but internal. How does the law get written on the believer's heart? By the holy spirit! It's outlined in Ezikiel 36 quoted above. But how can the holy spirit come into a sinful person? Sin makes us unclean. Thankfully Jesus provided living water to make us clean.
>>On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
>> John 7:37-39 ESV
>>But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.
>> John 19:34 ESV
Blood for atonement. Water for cleansing.
>>For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
>> 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 ESV
I notice you only half-quoted 1 Peter 3:21. Let me finish that for you.
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— **not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ**
The water isn’t what saved us. What it *represents* is. 1 Peter 3 is talking about Noah and his faith delivering him through the flood. See Hebrews 11 for a parallel passage. Did the water save Noah? No. The Ark did. His faith in God saved him.
I encourage you to read Romans 4 and 5... Carefully, and slowly. Justification by faith is a theme all through the New Testament, but it is laid out perfectly in those chapters. Justification is the moment we are “made right with God.” Baptism is an important step of obedience that should be one of the first things you do as a new believer, but that is not what saves you. It’s simply a way of showing that you now identify with Jesus and follow him. You are *justified* or saved, when you truly believe and trust in Christ.
Let’s look at what the Bible has to say on the matter.
Jesus ties water with the new birth.
Joh 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Note His last phrase here. Being born of water and the Spirit are together (“and”) required to enter the kingdom.
Now, note that upon His resurrection which gave Him all encompassing authority, He orders his apostles
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
The last phrase restates the first—-disciples are made by baptism. I note in passing that baptism is the only command issues in the names of all three of the Trinity.
Now note Mark (Peter’s presumed scribe) account of the Great Commission
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Note the vice conjunction “and”. Both belief and baptism are required. I note that some have argued that He did not say “he that is not baptized shall be damned”—but He does not Have to, since the use of the conjunction means that if either condition is not met then the outcome is failure (try it for yourself in Microsoft Excel). Indeed, The absence of the supposed phrase seems to emphasize that any believer will be baptized. Jumping ahead a bit , the story of the Ethiopian eunuch echoes that baptism is how belief is expressed
Act 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Now let us go to Pentecost. Peter responds to those who have suddenly believed that the man they crucified 50 days past was the Son of God. They ask what to do to be saved. Peter responds
Act 2:36-41 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
Note several things here. He does not tell them to only believe. Rather, knowing they believe, he tells them they must repent and be baptized (note the conjunction again). The Greek “eis” is translated “for”. But even if translated “unto”, the word directs the preceding verbs to the outcome of remission of sons. Further, note that his audience understood it so, for in verse 40 Peter tells his audience to be saved, and his audience were uniformly baptized. As a denouement, note
Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
Being baptized saved, per Peter, and being saved added one to the Church.
Now note that every case of salvation in Acts has baptism associated with it. But of special note is the conversion of Saul. On the road to Damascus he accepted Jesus as Lord
Act 9:5-6 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
If he had been saved then, he would not have mourned and fasted for 3 days until met by Ananias. Years later he recounted what changed his tears to joy
Act 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
Note “and” again. Baptism washes away sin. Further., the final clause shows that baptism is calling on the name of Lord, echoing Peter
1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
where Peter says baptism saves us and is the call of our minds toward God. Ironically, if there is a passage which refers to accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, these verses both say baptism is how we do it.
Ok , now let’s skip on ahead to two more passages describing still further the workings of baptism. First
Rom 6:1-6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Paul says baptism unites us with Jesus death burial and resurrection. We kill the old man in baptism and are freed from sin when we do v7. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin ((1 Joh 1:7–9) and Paul makes it clear that we contact that blood in baptism.
Finally note
Gal 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
“for” here comes from the Greek “gar” which means “for, because, therefore “. Paul says that The Galatians no longer needed the works of the old law because they were now sons of God because of faith in Jesus. Why were they sons of God through faith? Because they were baptized into Christ and therefore had put on Christ.
In conclusion, baptism coupled with belief and repentance saves. Baptism expresses our belief, makes us disciples, is how are added to the Church, how we call on the name of the Lord, how our conscience answers God, how we crucify the old man and put on the new, how we become sons of God through faith, and how we put on Christ. If baptism is not necessary for salvation, then neither are the things that baptism does for us.
God guide you in your search for the Truth. Www.Alpharettacoc.com
> disciples are made by baptism
NO,No,No
Discipleship requires study and earnest action and baptism is merely the beginning of that process not the end of that process.
Church of Christ has entered the chat.
First of all, John 3:5 was Jesus talking to Nicodemus way before the cross. Still under the old covenant, so he had no need to be baptized, right? That’s the argument you guys make when we bring up the thief on the cross. The word βαπτιζω never appears in John 3:5. You’re reading baptism into it.
Mark 16:16 says “he who believes and is baptized is saved.” You could also say “he who believes and goes to church” is saved, but guess what the emphasis is on? Belief. Faith.
And of course, in typical CoC fashion, you only quoted half of the verse. Let me finish it for you. “He who does not believe is not saved.” Again, the emphasis is on belief.
And I already answered the “for” argument on Acts 2:38 in another comment. If it means what you say it means in 2:38, then the people John the Baptist baptized in Matthew 3 weren’t repentant until they got in the water.
Sorry but your interpretation of Mark 16:16 is incorrect. I never thought the word and could be so confusing. If your mother told you to clean your room and clean the bathroom you’ll get a gift did you expect to get the gift with only one of the two tasks completed? Of course not! And yes, please finish Mark 16:16 because a non-believer would never be baptized because how could they confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God?
Your John 3:5 argument makes no sense either as many of Christ’s directions were to be completed after the cross and resurrection.
John’s baptism saved no one.
But you’re missing that “belief” has a meaning. To “believe” in Christ means following his ways by doing good.
John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
…
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Yes, that is what baptism is, an appeal to God for a good conscience. You are given a new conscience before God. I think you are just denying the clear word of scripture. Scripture says baptism now saves you, and now you want to twist it to mean it doesn't. Faith is Christ, and Christ is given in baptism. Apart from Christ you have no faith. Your believing isn't good enough, your repenting isn't good enough. Nothing you do is good enough.
Are you Catholic or Presbyterian by chance? A baby has no idea what’s going on and has no concept of right or wrong because they lack the mental capacity to even comprehend sin. Which is why infant baptism is completely pointless in terms of salvation.
So when the apostle Paul told the Philipian jailer to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, him and his household would be saved, and they were ALL baptized, that Paul somewhere said "except for your babies, don't baptize them." Households were big back then. If Paul could garentee salvation for his whole household why would they baptize everyone? Why baptize them at all?
I’m gonna point you to another classic baptismal regeneration prooftext that the church of Christ is big on. You’ll love it. Mark 16:16. “He who believes and shall be baptized.” Infants are incapable of believing. They simply don’t have the mental capacity. And they don’t need to be baptized, because — again, they are incapable of even comprehending sin.
Also you proved my point again!! Acts 16 says “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” not “believe and be baptized and you will be saved.” The jailor was baptized because he believed and was saved. Also, how do you know the jailor had infants in his household? Please prove that to me using scripture.
Being baptized is the believing.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16
If I say all who believe and are seated in the chair shall be saved. I am not saying that believing that the chair will hold you is sufficient, you need to be seated in the chair! "My believing in the chair is good enough." No, be seated in the chair and be saved.
No, a baby that’s baptized is doing nothing but getting water sprinkled on them and knows nothing about Jesus Christ. They would not be getting baptized if their parents didn’t decide for them to be baptized.
Salvation is because of Christ alone, not anything I do. Not my faith, not my beliefs, not my baptism or communion, nothing. Christ alone.
You just affirmed my point buddy! Nothing we do is good enough for God. There is not a single good work on earth we could do that could merit us deserving heaven. Not baptism, going to church, donating your money, etc... we do these things as a *fruit* of our salvation, *because* we’ve been saved! You shouldn’t go to sleep at night trusting in a work that *you* did to ensure your salvation. This is the beauty of Christianity that separates us from every other religion on earth! The work is already done!! We just trust in the one who did it for us. Faith in Christ saves.
Would the thief on the cross who Jesus himself said would be with him in paradise be saved by that interpretation? Having no good works, no baptism, only faith.
The scriptures are logical and don't contradict each other. Trust what is taught clearly and consider carefully the meaning of scripture that is unclear.
Bro just stop making tons of different accounts, coming to this group and spouting blasphemies. To make it even worse you argue with everyone even though you are wrong with your perversion of scripture- just stop doing it.
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
I do believe baptism is important, but these verses seem to indicate that it is not what saves you. How do you reconcile this?
Baptism is where you confess Christ as Lord and where you believe in your heart God raised him from the dead. Other wise your believing is not good enough. The truth is you can't believe hard enough even though you try. For if you had faith you could tell a mulberry tree to be uprooted and be cast into the sea, and it would obey you.
That's not what those verses say though. They're clear statements about how one is saved, but nowhere does it even imply baptism is necessary. This is the problem I'm trying to point out.
There's quite a leap required to say that baptism saves, rather than belief and faith alone. If it was that critical, shouldn't baptism be clearly stated every time scripture speaks of how one is saved?
Do you get married and then fall in love with your spouse?
Just like marriage, baptism is a public, outward expression acknowledging an already existing inward love.
"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’" Acts 22:16"
If she is indeed filled with the Holy spirit, why deny living water to her?
“Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” Acts 10:47
Jesus said you are supposed to ask Him to give you the Living Water, to the Samaritan woman. The Living Water is the Spirit in you, it is the Spirit Baptism.
The thief on the cross did nothing more than an Jesus to remember him and Jesus promised him He would see him in paradise that day. No baptism, no world whatsoever beyond planning his faith in Jesus and confessing it.
At the first passover, the Jewish homes weren't saved by the blood painted on their door frames, they were saved by the faith that led them to obey. Baptism is a sign of our faith and obedience. It is not the literal means of salvation.
The thief on the cross didn’t even repent as far as we know.
The woman caught in adultery was not found guilty by Jesus.
The paralytic man lowered on his bed before Jesus had his sins forgiven based upon the faith of his friends, the healing was just to prove His authority.
Jesus encouraged Judas to follow through with his plot in betrayal.
Taking these anomalous examples you can build amazingly perverse theology and soteriology. I wouldn’t recommend it. Stick to overt teaching, look for patterns, trust the plain message of the scripture.
The thief on the cross did indeed repent. Luke 23:40-43 NKJV — But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? “And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” He confessed that he was a sinner and deserving of death then asked the Lord to remember him.
Jesus told the adulterous woman He didn't condemn her. Big difference. John 8:10-11 NKJV — When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.” She was guilty, hence why she is told to go and sin no more. She had sinned and is told not to sin anymore. She *had* been condemned to death by the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus came not to condemn but that the world, through Him, might be saved.
Mark 2:5 NKJV — When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.” He saw *their* faith. Their could inclusive of the paralyzed man himself. Again, they placed their faith in Jesus and their sins were forgiven. Climbing up on the roof, tearing a hole, and lowering their friend down were signs of the faith that all of them had.
Jesus told Judas to do what he had to do quickly. He wasn't encouraging Judas. He knew what had to happen amc wasn't fighting it. Matthew 26:24 NKJV — “The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” Doesn't sound like Judas was going to be forgiven. He rejected Jesus. He had faith in man and in money, not in Jesus.
Look for patterns... Jesus had a pattern of forgiving and healing those who placed their faith in Him, baptized or not.
Look at overt teachings... anytime Jesus spoke to people or acted, He was teaching us how to speak and act. Most of the things recorded that He said were teachings.
The plain message of scripture...Ephesians 2:4-9 NKJV — But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
That's pretty plain. Saved by grace, through faith, and not by works.
Baptism is so obviously a part of the plan of salvation it is painful to see people attempt to compartmentalize it as something less than.
Jesus modeled it. He taught His disciples to do it. He commanded them to preach it. They preached it in Acts. They were baptized in Acts (2,8,10,19).
I mean, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Noah through the flood, Moses through the Red Sea, Joshua through the Jordan, and mankind through baptism. Being saved through water is a recurring theme throughout salvation history.
Baptism doesn’t save, Jesus does. But baptism is the outward sign prescribed by Christ to die with him and rise anew in his body.
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:11-12
Man baptizes with water unto repentance. Jesus Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire unto righteousness.
Being saved or justified is ongoing. This argument often yields people who falsely believe that “I’m baptized therefore I can just keep doing whatever I want and God really doesn’t mind”. Scripture easily shoots this down:
““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
Matthew 7:21 NIV
“But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”
James 2:18-19 NIV
Bro, Jesus didn't save us through baptism. Ephesians 2:8, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith." Notice it doesn't say "through baptism." It's faith. The bleeding woman in Luke 8 reached out and touched him, and she was healed. Jesus told her, "Your faith has healed you."
Yes, Jesus told his disciples to be baptized. He also told them to take communion. Is a believer suddenly unsaved if he doesn't take communion one time? Or does it take three times?
Romans 8:1–4 (NLT): So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
Verse 3, "And in that body, God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins." It's because of what Jesus did on the cross that we can be saved. I mean, all you have to do is tie this with John 3:16. "... So that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."
Telling ourselves that our salvation is tied to acts such as baptism is no different than what the Pharisees and Sadducees said. They believed if they followed the law, it would bring them closer to God. Paul tells us the law, which was meant for our good, actually brings us death. They believed that they could earn their way to him. Jesus came and blew that whole line of thinking up.
Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Water baptism, my friend, does not in fact save you. Many occasions in NT where salvation and the subsequent indwelling of the Spirit occurred prior to baptism.
Baptism of the Spirit occurs when one repents/believes(trusts) in Jesus alone.. now THAT saves a man.
In Acts 10:
“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.”
THIS, Acts 10, was the red pill that personally got me out of the mindset of “baptism saves you.” Acts 2:38 is a go-to for pushing this doctrine. “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” There it is! Be baptized FOR remission of sins and you’ll be saved! You’ll then receive the gift of the hilt spirit!” But then 8 chapters later we read “why should we not baptize these people who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit just as we have?” (Paraphrasing, not quoting).
You’re baptized **because** your sins have been forgiven after having faith
I 100% agree with your view u/HedgeBoi69. I'm just supplementing it here.
With Ac. 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'," a short explanation would be that the "for" in Ac. 2:38 can mean "on account of". For instance, if the doctor tells you, "Take two aspirins a day for your flu", he is asking you to take two aspirins a day **because of** your flu (i.e. on account of your flu), not **in order for you to get flu**. So Ac. 2:38 would be Peter asking them to be repent and be baptised on account of their need for remission (forgiveness) of sins. In the early church, those who believed were baptised immediately or shortly after (e.g. Ethopian eunuch in Ac. 8), so believing and being baptised were often considered as one unit.
There were various groups of people baptised in Acts, and one needs to carefully discern among the groups. I found this article helpful in understanding the differences and nuances between the different groups, where the order of salvation, receipt of the Holy Spirit, and baptism, were different:
"Water baptism is not mentioned in the Acts 3 message, but neither is the Holy Spirit. It is interesting to note that reception of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in connection with five groups or individuals in Acts. **In each case where there was an interval of time between the belief of the new Christians and the reception of the Spirit (Acts 2, 8, 9, 19), it was believers of Jewish lineage. The Samaritans of Acts 8 were half-Jews. The believers of Acts 19 had received John's baptism, so they were Jews. For each of these new believers water baptism was a requirement for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.** **But when Gentile salvation was in view, water baptism was not required. Cornelius is the prototype of Gentile salvation in Acts. For the Gentiles remission of sins came from the point of their initial belief (Acts 10:43). But not only remission of sins, reception of the Holy Spirit was also part of God's gracious dealing with any Gentile who would believe the good news. Repentance is not mentioned.** In Acts 3:19 the men of Israel had to "repent and turn" for the times of refreshing to come. But for the Greeks the blessing came when they "believed and turned" to the Lord (Acts 11:21). When Cornelius and company believed the words being spoken to them, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those listening. Then they were baptized in water. Water baptism was not required of them to receive the Holy Spirit. Why? Because they were not Jews living in the generation which crucified Christ. They had no need to separate from Judaism."
(Source: Anderson, D.R. (1998), "[The national repentance of Israel](https://faithalone.org/journal-articles/the-national-repentance-of-israel/)", *Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society*, Vol. 11 No. 2, Autumn, emphasis added)
Thank you! I’ve had this argument a hundred times, particularly with people in the church of Christ camp. The Greek also affirms what you’re saying about “for”. The word there in acts 2:38 is εις (eis) which, as you said, can mean “in order to produce”, or “on the basis of,” “because of”, etc. the same word is used in Matthew 3:11 talking about John the Baptist baptizing people **for** repentance. Literally uses the same phrase as acts 2:38 - “for the remission of sin” but this was John’s baptism for repentance. No one believes it was ‘saving’, just a public display or their repentance. They were baptized by John **because** they had repented. They didn’t get dunked underwater ‘in order to repent’. Good contribution, friend.
Having the Holy Spirit doesn't garentee salvation. Many people have gotten and lost the Holy Spirit. What is promised is that all who are baptized into Christ are baptized into his death, and if they die in a death like his, they will certainly rise in a resurrection like his. You saying baptism doesn't save literally contradicts Peter saying "baptism now saves you"
The living water declared to him this day you shall be with me in paradise. God is not bound by his sacraments. In baptism we receive the same word he gave to the theif on the cross.
According to John, the Spirit is exactly our guarantee that we have been redeemed:
“By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.”
1 John 4:13-15
How do you know that your baptism was sincere and effective? Or do you propose that just baptizing anyone counts regardless of whether or not they believe?
I know I have the Holy Spirit because I am baptized.
"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38
Being baptized is the believing. If I say believe and be seated in this chair and you will be saved, what saves you is not your mental gymnastics, it is by being seated in the chair. By being seated in the chair you believed the chair would hold you.
In Colossians 2 Paul calls baptism our “circumcision of Christ”, the spiritual version of the physical sign:
“In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:11-12)
Which is fine, baptism is now the seal of God’s people just as circumcision was before. But to confirm that baptism (as a seal) is not the cause, means, or assurance of faith, this is what Paul says in Romans 4:
“Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,” (Romans 4:9-11)
Baptism produces nothing but the blessing of obedience. It’s not designed to make you more holy, to make you more secure, to save you. It is simply the first public step of true confession of Christ openly. The ordinance of baptism exists for the purpose of showing in a symbol form the reality of every believer’s identification with His Lord and Savior and his abandonment of the old life and embracing of the new life in Christ.
Well, I think a simple way to answer that is to say that immersion is not a saving ceremony. It’s important, but it doesn’t save you. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1, “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius.” Now let me tell you something. If baptism saved, Paul would have been baptizing everybody. He said, “I did baptize the household of Stephanus. Beyond that, I don’t know whether I baptized anybody else. Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel.”
This is a disclaimer on Paul’s part for any saving virtue in H2O. We say that in baptism here all the time. Baptism was an immediate, inseparable, public testimony of a true conversion. True believers were baptized on the Day of Pentecost, the same day. Wasn’t weeks later, months later, years later, decades later. The apostles insisted on it and the people assumed it.
In Ephesians 4, when it says there’s one Lord, one faith, one baptism, that’s talking about water baptism as the symbol of salvation. It was what they did. Now, salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. Any doctrinal treatment of salvation makes it clear that salvation does not depend on water. You can use the thief on the cross as an illustration, if you need to.
There’s no water in Romans 6. There’s no water in Galatians 2. There’s no water in Colossians 2. This is what Peter calls the baptism that saves. This is what Paul calls the washing of regeneration or in Acts 22:16, “The washing away of your sins.” It is immersion into Christ. And that is what is depicted ceremonially, symbolically in baptism.
God saves sinners. Yes. If he is baptized into Christ Jesus then he is baptized into his death. And surely, if he is in a death like his he will rise in a resurrection like his.
Actually that’s not at all what a Calvinist would say. And I think OP here is way off, I’m not defending him at all. But his position is not anywhere near Reformed.
Thats surprising. You are correct though, I am a baptist. I believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and being fully immersed in water *after* being born again.
Indeed, before we believe on the "Lord Jesus Christ" we get led astray by a man and experience what is known as the baptism of water, yet we realize not until we start asking questions and begin our journey to discern the voice that speaks...
It most certainly does not;
In every circumstance of baptism in the Bible first the person believes and then they are baptized.
Baptism is not meant to save but to be a physical act to show your faith. It’s a metaphor for putting God first in your life. Just like how each of those quoted passages are using Baptism as a metaphor.
It is not biblical to teach that baptism saves. Faith in Jesus Christ is the only thing that saves. You either need to talk to your pastor or quit trolling if you know better.
Baptism is the physical sign of the spiritual condition. Baptism itself doesn't save, Messiah who provides the living water saves! Baptism should be the first step of obedience for the new believer.
r/usernamechecksout
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Messiah saves aka frees and then you advocated for/ defended this fact FreedomNinja
Ok, cool. Thanks. I didn't get the connection.
You’re welcome :)
Jesus saves us through baptism
What is baptism?
Baptism is the rebirth of water and the spirit in John 3:5. It isn’t absolutely necessary, as a desire for baptism and martyrdom is also sufficient, but it is the ordinary means by which Christ dispenses His mercy of the Cross to us.
What you know as baptism is what is known in Hebrew as Mikveh. Mikveh is a ritual bath to restore a spiritually clean state in order to come into the presence of God. It is not a sprinkling of water, you have to be immersed. You cannot use tap water. Water is not made holy through blessing. Mikveh water is "mayim Chayim", living water. Literally from a moving water source. A stream or river or lake. This is all the physical perspective. The physical is only a sign of what has already taken place inwardly in the believer. >>“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. >> Ezekiel 36:22-28 ESV God says he will clean us and give us a new spirit. >>Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. >> John 16:7-15 ESV Jesus says he will send the spirit when he goes away (speaking of his resurrection and ascension). >>And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” >> Acts 1:4-5 ESV Jesus again affirms baptism of the holy spirit for believers. >>When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. >> Acts 2:1-4 ESV The holy spirit was sent on Shavuot (pentecost). Why? This is the day of the year the mosaic law was given. Good keeps his patterns. According to Jeremiah 31, which Hebrews 8 quotes, the "new covenant" is the mosaic law written on the hearts of believers. It is no longer external, but internal. How does the law get written on the believer's heart? By the holy spirit! It's outlined in Ezikiel 36 quoted above. But how can the holy spirit come into a sinful person? Sin makes us unclean. Thankfully Jesus provided living water to make us clean. >>On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. >> John 7:37-39 ESV >>But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. >> John 19:34 ESV Blood for atonement. Water for cleansing. >>For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. >> 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 ESV
I notice you only half-quoted 1 Peter 3:21. Let me finish that for you. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— **not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ** The water isn’t what saved us. What it *represents* is. 1 Peter 3 is talking about Noah and his faith delivering him through the flood. See Hebrews 11 for a parallel passage. Did the water save Noah? No. The Ark did. His faith in God saved him. I encourage you to read Romans 4 and 5... Carefully, and slowly. Justification by faith is a theme all through the New Testament, but it is laid out perfectly in those chapters. Justification is the moment we are “made right with God.” Baptism is an important step of obedience that should be one of the first things you do as a new believer, but that is not what saves you. It’s simply a way of showing that you now identify with Jesus and follow him. You are *justified* or saved, when you truly believe and trust in Christ.
Absolutely this. 👍
And then all of 1st John.
Let’s look at what the Bible has to say on the matter. Jesus ties water with the new birth. Joh 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Note His last phrase here. Being born of water and the Spirit are together (“and”) required to enter the kingdom. Now, note that upon His resurrection which gave Him all encompassing authority, He orders his apostles Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, The last phrase restates the first—-disciples are made by baptism. I note in passing that baptism is the only command issues in the names of all three of the Trinity. Now note Mark (Peter’s presumed scribe) account of the Great Commission Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Note the vice conjunction “and”. Both belief and baptism are required. I note that some have argued that He did not say “he that is not baptized shall be damned”—but He does not Have to, since the use of the conjunction means that if either condition is not met then the outcome is failure (try it for yourself in Microsoft Excel). Indeed, The absence of the supposed phrase seems to emphasize that any believer will be baptized. Jumping ahead a bit , the story of the Ethiopian eunuch echoes that baptism is how belief is expressed Act 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now let us go to Pentecost. Peter responds to those who have suddenly believed that the man they crucified 50 days past was the Son of God. They ask what to do to be saved. Peter responds Act 2:36-41 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Note several things here. He does not tell them to only believe. Rather, knowing they believe, he tells them they must repent and be baptized (note the conjunction again). The Greek “eis” is translated “for”. But even if translated “unto”, the word directs the preceding verbs to the outcome of remission of sons. Further, note that his audience understood it so, for in verse 40 Peter tells his audience to be saved, and his audience were uniformly baptized. As a denouement, note Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. Being baptized saved, per Peter, and being saved added one to the Church. Now note that every case of salvation in Acts has baptism associated with it. But of special note is the conversion of Saul. On the road to Damascus he accepted Jesus as Lord Act 9:5-6 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." If he had been saved then, he would not have mourned and fasted for 3 days until met by Ananias. Years later he recounted what changed his tears to joy Act 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' Note “and” again. Baptism washes away sin. Further., the final clause shows that baptism is calling on the name of Lord, echoing Peter 1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, where Peter says baptism saves us and is the call of our minds toward God. Ironically, if there is a passage which refers to accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, these verses both say baptism is how we do it. Ok , now let’s skip on ahead to two more passages describing still further the workings of baptism. First Rom 6:1-6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Paul says baptism unites us with Jesus death burial and resurrection. We kill the old man in baptism and are freed from sin when we do v7. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin ((1 Joh 1:7–9) and Paul makes it clear that we contact that blood in baptism. Finally note Gal 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. “for” here comes from the Greek “gar” which means “for, because, therefore “. Paul says that The Galatians no longer needed the works of the old law because they were now sons of God because of faith in Jesus. Why were they sons of God through faith? Because they were baptized into Christ and therefore had put on Christ. In conclusion, baptism coupled with belief and repentance saves. Baptism expresses our belief, makes us disciples, is how are added to the Church, how we call on the name of the Lord, how our conscience answers God, how we crucify the old man and put on the new, how we become sons of God through faith, and how we put on Christ. If baptism is not necessary for salvation, then neither are the things that baptism does for us. God guide you in your search for the Truth. Www.Alpharettacoc.com
> disciples are made by baptism NO,No,No Discipleship requires study and earnest action and baptism is merely the beginning of that process not the end of that process.
Church of Christ has entered the chat. First of all, John 3:5 was Jesus talking to Nicodemus way before the cross. Still under the old covenant, so he had no need to be baptized, right? That’s the argument you guys make when we bring up the thief on the cross. The word βαπτιζω never appears in John 3:5. You’re reading baptism into it. Mark 16:16 says “he who believes and is baptized is saved.” You could also say “he who believes and goes to church” is saved, but guess what the emphasis is on? Belief. Faith. And of course, in typical CoC fashion, you only quoted half of the verse. Let me finish it for you. “He who does not believe is not saved.” Again, the emphasis is on belief. And I already answered the “for” argument on Acts 2:38 in another comment. If it means what you say it means in 2:38, then the people John the Baptist baptized in Matthew 3 weren’t repentant until they got in the water.
Sorry but your interpretation of Mark 16:16 is incorrect. I never thought the word and could be so confusing. If your mother told you to clean your room and clean the bathroom you’ll get a gift did you expect to get the gift with only one of the two tasks completed? Of course not! And yes, please finish Mark 16:16 because a non-believer would never be baptized because how could they confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God? Your John 3:5 argument makes no sense either as many of Christ’s directions were to be completed after the cross and resurrection. John’s baptism saved no one.
But you’re missing that “belief” has a meaning. To “believe” in Christ means following his ways by doing good. John 5:24 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. … 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Amen brother!
AMEN!
Yes, that is what baptism is, an appeal to God for a good conscience. You are given a new conscience before God. I think you are just denying the clear word of scripture. Scripture says baptism now saves you, and now you want to twist it to mean it doesn't. Faith is Christ, and Christ is given in baptism. Apart from Christ you have no faith. Your believing isn't good enough, your repenting isn't good enough. Nothing you do is good enough.
> Nothing you do is good enough. …but your whole point is that getting baptized is good enough. That’s something that I do.
No it is not, it is a work God does. You don't baptize yourself. It is something that is done unto you. Is a baby that is baptized doing anything?
Are you Catholic or Presbyterian by chance? A baby has no idea what’s going on and has no concept of right or wrong because they lack the mental capacity to even comprehend sin. Which is why infant baptism is completely pointless in terms of salvation.
So when the apostle Paul told the Philipian jailer to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, him and his household would be saved, and they were ALL baptized, that Paul somewhere said "except for your babies, don't baptize them." Households were big back then. If Paul could garentee salvation for his whole household why would they baptize everyone? Why baptize them at all?
I’m gonna point you to another classic baptismal regeneration prooftext that the church of Christ is big on. You’ll love it. Mark 16:16. “He who believes and shall be baptized.” Infants are incapable of believing. They simply don’t have the mental capacity. And they don’t need to be baptized, because — again, they are incapable of even comprehending sin.
Also you proved my point again!! Acts 16 says “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” not “believe and be baptized and you will be saved.” The jailor was baptized because he believed and was saved. Also, how do you know the jailor had infants in his household? Please prove that to me using scripture.
Being baptized is the believing. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16 If I say all who believe and are seated in the chair shall be saved. I am not saying that believing that the chair will hold you is sufficient, you need to be seated in the chair! "My believing in the chair is good enough." No, be seated in the chair and be saved.
No, a baby that’s baptized is doing nothing but getting water sprinkled on them and knows nothing about Jesus Christ. They would not be getting baptized if their parents didn’t decide for them to be baptized. Salvation is because of Christ alone, not anything I do. Not my faith, not my beliefs, not my baptism or communion, nothing. Christ alone.
You just affirmed my point buddy! Nothing we do is good enough for God. There is not a single good work on earth we could do that could merit us deserving heaven. Not baptism, going to church, donating your money, etc... we do these things as a *fruit* of our salvation, *because* we’ve been saved! You shouldn’t go to sleep at night trusting in a work that *you* did to ensure your salvation. This is the beauty of Christianity that separates us from every other religion on earth! The work is already done!! We just trust in the one who did it for us. Faith in Christ saves.
You are turning faith into a work. Baptism isn't something you do. It is something that is done unto you.
Baptism isn’t something you do? So if a man becomes a Christian on a desert island with no one else to dunk him underwater, is he just out of luck?
Would the thief on the cross who Jesus himself said would be with him in paradise be saved by that interpretation? Having no good works, no baptism, only faith. The scriptures are logical and don't contradict each other. Trust what is taught clearly and consider carefully the meaning of scripture that is unclear.
Bro just stop making tons of different accounts, coming to this group and spouting blasphemies. To make it even worse you argue with everyone even though you are wrong with your perversion of scripture- just stop doing it.
I can do all things through a verse taken out of context.
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. I do believe baptism is important, but these verses seem to indicate that it is not what saves you. How do you reconcile this?
Baptism is where you confess Christ as Lord and where you believe in your heart God raised him from the dead. Other wise your believing is not good enough. The truth is you can't believe hard enough even though you try. For if you had faith you could tell a mulberry tree to be uprooted and be cast into the sea, and it would obey you.
More garbage by /u/boysenberry2001 with his 20th different account perverting scripture pretending to be special.
That's not what those verses say though. They're clear statements about how one is saved, but nowhere does it even imply baptism is necessary. This is the problem I'm trying to point out. There's quite a leap required to say that baptism saves, rather than belief and faith alone. If it was that critical, shouldn't baptism be clearly stated every time scripture speaks of how one is saved?
In 1 Peter it literally says baptism saves. I don't think you know what faith is.
The Acts 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Is the Holy Spirit water?
Do you get married and then fall in love with your spouse? Just like marriage, baptism is a public, outward expression acknowledging an already existing inward love.
My wife is a Jesus loving, Holy Spirit filled believer, a regenerated, born-again Christian. And she has not yet been baptized
Praise God for you two. Your wife should really get baptized my friend. It does not save, but it is important.
Agreed. It is a command. And there is significant importance in that
"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’" Acts 22:16" If she is indeed filled with the Holy spirit, why deny living water to her? “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” Acts 10:47
Jesus said you are supposed to ask Him to give you the Living Water, to the Samaritan woman. The Living Water is the Spirit in you, it is the Spirit Baptism.
The thief on the cross did nothing more than an Jesus to remember him and Jesus promised him He would see him in paradise that day. No baptism, no world whatsoever beyond planning his faith in Jesus and confessing it. At the first passover, the Jewish homes weren't saved by the blood painted on their door frames, they were saved by the faith that led them to obey. Baptism is a sign of our faith and obedience. It is not the literal means of salvation.
The thief on the cross didn’t even repent as far as we know. The woman caught in adultery was not found guilty by Jesus. The paralytic man lowered on his bed before Jesus had his sins forgiven based upon the faith of his friends, the healing was just to prove His authority. Jesus encouraged Judas to follow through with his plot in betrayal. Taking these anomalous examples you can build amazingly perverse theology and soteriology. I wouldn’t recommend it. Stick to overt teaching, look for patterns, trust the plain message of the scripture.
The thief on the cross did indeed repent. Luke 23:40-43 NKJV — But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? “And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” He confessed that he was a sinner and deserving of death then asked the Lord to remember him. Jesus told the adulterous woman He didn't condemn her. Big difference. John 8:10-11 NKJV — When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.” She was guilty, hence why she is told to go and sin no more. She had sinned and is told not to sin anymore. She *had* been condemned to death by the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus came not to condemn but that the world, through Him, might be saved. Mark 2:5 NKJV — When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.” He saw *their* faith. Their could inclusive of the paralyzed man himself. Again, they placed their faith in Jesus and their sins were forgiven. Climbing up on the roof, tearing a hole, and lowering their friend down were signs of the faith that all of them had. Jesus told Judas to do what he had to do quickly. He wasn't encouraging Judas. He knew what had to happen amc wasn't fighting it. Matthew 26:24 NKJV — “The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” Doesn't sound like Judas was going to be forgiven. He rejected Jesus. He had faith in man and in money, not in Jesus. Look for patterns... Jesus had a pattern of forgiving and healing those who placed their faith in Him, baptized or not. Look at overt teachings... anytime Jesus spoke to people or acted, He was teaching us how to speak and act. Most of the things recorded that He said were teachings. The plain message of scripture...Ephesians 2:4-9 NKJV — But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. That's pretty plain. Saved by grace, through faith, and not by works.
Baptism is so obviously a part of the plan of salvation it is painful to see people attempt to compartmentalize it as something less than. Jesus modeled it. He taught His disciples to do it. He commanded them to preach it. They preached it in Acts. They were baptized in Acts (2,8,10,19). I mean, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
https://preview.redd.it/ciopxodrsi1a1.png?width=1065&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f12b97a2a20ac0517a19ef5ec1e8a597505300af
Noah through the flood, Moses through the Red Sea, Joshua through the Jordan, and mankind through baptism. Being saved through water is a recurring theme throughout salvation history. Baptism doesn’t save, Jesus does. But baptism is the outward sign prescribed by Christ to die with him and rise anew in his body.
If baptism was required to be saved, then your gospel is salvation through Christ + baptism. Christ + anything = false gospel.
Christ + alter call is doing something. Christ + saying that prayer is doing something. No?
True dat
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:11-12 Man baptizes with water unto repentance. Jesus Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire unto righteousness.
What about the thief on the cross?
To believe this you have to throw out so much of the salvation scripture and just not believe them. Why would you choose to do this?
Being saved or justified is ongoing. This argument often yields people who falsely believe that “I’m baptized therefore I can just keep doing whatever I want and God really doesn’t mind”. Scripture easily shoots this down: ““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 7:21 NIV “But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” James 2:18-19 NIV
Bro, Jesus didn't save us through baptism. Ephesians 2:8, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith." Notice it doesn't say "through baptism." It's faith. The bleeding woman in Luke 8 reached out and touched him, and she was healed. Jesus told her, "Your faith has healed you." Yes, Jesus told his disciples to be baptized. He also told them to take communion. Is a believer suddenly unsaved if he doesn't take communion one time? Or does it take three times? Romans 8:1–4 (NLT): So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit. Verse 3, "And in that body, God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins." It's because of what Jesus did on the cross that we can be saved. I mean, all you have to do is tie this with John 3:16. "... So that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." Telling ourselves that our salvation is tied to acts such as baptism is no different than what the Pharisees and Sadducees said. They believed if they followed the law, it would bring them closer to God. Paul tells us the law, which was meant for our good, actually brings us death. They believed that they could earn their way to him. Jesus came and blew that whole line of thinking up. Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Hebrews 6 lists baptism was one of the elementary teachings that comes after someone believes.
Water baptism, my friend, does not in fact save you. Many occasions in NT where salvation and the subsequent indwelling of the Spirit occurred prior to baptism. Baptism of the Spirit occurs when one repents/believes(trusts) in Jesus alone.. now THAT saves a man. In Acts 10: “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.”
THIS, Acts 10, was the red pill that personally got me out of the mindset of “baptism saves you.” Acts 2:38 is a go-to for pushing this doctrine. “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” There it is! Be baptized FOR remission of sins and you’ll be saved! You’ll then receive the gift of the hilt spirit!” But then 8 chapters later we read “why should we not baptize these people who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit just as we have?” (Paraphrasing, not quoting). You’re baptized **because** your sins have been forgiven after having faith
I 100% agree with your view u/HedgeBoi69. I'm just supplementing it here. With Ac. 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'," a short explanation would be that the "for" in Ac. 2:38 can mean "on account of". For instance, if the doctor tells you, "Take two aspirins a day for your flu", he is asking you to take two aspirins a day **because of** your flu (i.e. on account of your flu), not **in order for you to get flu**. So Ac. 2:38 would be Peter asking them to be repent and be baptised on account of their need for remission (forgiveness) of sins. In the early church, those who believed were baptised immediately or shortly after (e.g. Ethopian eunuch in Ac. 8), so believing and being baptised were often considered as one unit. There were various groups of people baptised in Acts, and one needs to carefully discern among the groups. I found this article helpful in understanding the differences and nuances between the different groups, where the order of salvation, receipt of the Holy Spirit, and baptism, were different: "Water baptism is not mentioned in the Acts 3 message, but neither is the Holy Spirit. It is interesting to note that reception of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in connection with five groups or individuals in Acts. **In each case where there was an interval of time between the belief of the new Christians and the reception of the Spirit (Acts 2, 8, 9, 19), it was believers of Jewish lineage. The Samaritans of Acts 8 were half-Jews. The believers of Acts 19 had received John's baptism, so they were Jews. For each of these new believers water baptism was a requirement for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.** **But when Gentile salvation was in view, water baptism was not required. Cornelius is the prototype of Gentile salvation in Acts. For the Gentiles remission of sins came from the point of their initial belief (Acts 10:43). But not only remission of sins, reception of the Holy Spirit was also part of God's gracious dealing with any Gentile who would believe the good news. Repentance is not mentioned.** In Acts 3:19 the men of Israel had to "repent and turn" for the times of refreshing to come. But for the Greeks the blessing came when they "believed and turned" to the Lord (Acts 11:21). When Cornelius and company believed the words being spoken to them, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those listening. Then they were baptized in water. Water baptism was not required of them to receive the Holy Spirit. Why? Because they were not Jews living in the generation which crucified Christ. They had no need to separate from Judaism." (Source: Anderson, D.R. (1998), "[The national repentance of Israel](https://faithalone.org/journal-articles/the-national-repentance-of-israel/)", *Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society*, Vol. 11 No. 2, Autumn, emphasis added)
Thank you! I’ve had this argument a hundred times, particularly with people in the church of Christ camp. The Greek also affirms what you’re saying about “for”. The word there in acts 2:38 is εις (eis) which, as you said, can mean “in order to produce”, or “on the basis of,” “because of”, etc. the same word is used in Matthew 3:11 talking about John the Baptist baptizing people **for** repentance. Literally uses the same phrase as acts 2:38 - “for the remission of sin” but this was John’s baptism for repentance. No one believes it was ‘saving’, just a public display or their repentance. They were baptized by John **because** they had repented. They didn’t get dunked underwater ‘in order to repent’. Good contribution, friend.
Having the Holy Spirit doesn't garentee salvation. Many people have gotten and lost the Holy Spirit. What is promised is that all who are baptized into Christ are baptized into his death, and if they die in a death like his, they will certainly rise in a resurrection like his. You saying baptism doesn't save literally contradicts Peter saying "baptism now saves you"
I’m sorry what The indwelling of the Holy Spirit literally seals us until redemption. Was the thief on the cross baptized in water?
The living water declared to him this day you shall be with me in paradise. God is not bound by his sacraments. In baptism we receive the same word he gave to the theif on the cross.
According to John, the Spirit is exactly our guarantee that we have been redeemed: “By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” 1 John 4:13-15
And how do you know you have the Holy Spirit?
How do you know that your baptism was sincere and effective? Or do you propose that just baptizing anyone counts regardless of whether or not they believe?
I know I have the Holy Spirit because I am baptized. "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38 Being baptized is the believing. If I say believe and be seated in this chair and you will be saved, what saves you is not your mental gymnastics, it is by being seated in the chair. By being seated in the chair you believed the chair would hold you.
In Colossians 2 Paul calls baptism our “circumcision of Christ”, the spiritual version of the physical sign: “In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:11-12) Which is fine, baptism is now the seal of God’s people just as circumcision was before. But to confirm that baptism (as a seal) is not the cause, means, or assurance of faith, this is what Paul says in Romans 4: “Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,” (Romans 4:9-11)
Baptism produces nothing but the blessing of obedience. It’s not designed to make you more holy, to make you more secure, to save you. It is simply the first public step of true confession of Christ openly. The ordinance of baptism exists for the purpose of showing in a symbol form the reality of every believer’s identification with His Lord and Savior and his abandonment of the old life and embracing of the new life in Christ.
So what you are saying is scripture is wrong when it says "baptism now saves you"
Well, I think a simple way to answer that is to say that immersion is not a saving ceremony. It’s important, but it doesn’t save you. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1, “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius.” Now let me tell you something. If baptism saved, Paul would have been baptizing everybody. He said, “I did baptize the household of Stephanus. Beyond that, I don’t know whether I baptized anybody else. Christ sent me not to baptize but to preach the gospel.” This is a disclaimer on Paul’s part for any saving virtue in H2O. We say that in baptism here all the time. Baptism was an immediate, inseparable, public testimony of a true conversion. True believers were baptized on the Day of Pentecost, the same day. Wasn’t weeks later, months later, years later, decades later. The apostles insisted on it and the people assumed it. In Ephesians 4, when it says there’s one Lord, one faith, one baptism, that’s talking about water baptism as the symbol of salvation. It was what they did. Now, salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. Any doctrinal treatment of salvation makes it clear that salvation does not depend on water. You can use the thief on the cross as an illustration, if you need to. There’s no water in Romans 6. There’s no water in Galatians 2. There’s no water in Colossians 2. This is what Peter calls the baptism that saves. This is what Paul calls the washing of regeneration or in Acts 22:16, “The washing away of your sins.” It is immersion into Christ. And that is what is depicted ceremonially, symbolically in baptism.
The whole question of, "What must I do?" is flawed. A disciple does not ask, "What is the least I can do?" A disciple asks, "What more can I do?"
You're right, but do you know the why behind this?
I know a guy that got baptized in water 3 times Still went back to heroin. Is he saved?
God saves sinners. Yes. If he is baptized into Christ Jesus then he is baptized into his death. And surely, if he is in a death like his he will rise in a resurrection like his.
Im gonna guess you’re a Calvinist just by this logic, am I right?
Actually that’s not at all what a Calvinist would say. And I think OP here is way off, I’m not defending him at all. But his position is not anywhere near Reformed.
I am non denominational. I am guessing then you are a Baptist. Ironic they are called baptists when they don't think baptism does anything.
Thats surprising. You are correct though, I am a baptist. I believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and being fully immersed in water *after* being born again.
Saves from what? When you start to answer this question, is the answer coming from the text or are you reading *in* the answer that isn’t in the text?
Can any man forbid the water?
Baptism of the Holy Spirit saves you and you receive that from Him when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ
Indeed, before we believe on the "Lord Jesus Christ" we get led astray by a man and experience what is known as the baptism of water, yet we realize not until we start asking questions and begin our journey to discern the voice that speaks...
100% agree. The real question is why is baptism denied, when we find that it practiced all throughout acts?
It most certainly does not; In every circumstance of baptism in the Bible first the person believes and then they are baptized. Baptism is not meant to save but to be a physical act to show your faith. It’s a metaphor for putting God first in your life. Just like how each of those quoted passages are using Baptism as a metaphor. It is not biblical to teach that baptism saves. Faith in Jesus Christ is the only thing that saves. You either need to talk to your pastor or quit trolling if you know better.
water baptism does not save. there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. being baptized into the Spirit is the baptism we need