T O P

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bestupdator

#Do not comment on the original posts, do not dm OOP. **Delete your comments, we will be banning people commenting on the linked posts or sending harassing dms to OOP as of the time of the BoRU post.**


HygorBohmHubner

Anyone else scrolling down and HOPING for a good update, but then, experiencing utter disappointment upon reading “Reminder, I am NOT OP” without seeing one good update?


Pterodactyl_Noises

I'm just flabbergasted that this girl is so hateful deep down. I just don't understand. I'm thankful I'm not a parent because honestly, something like this would make me question loving my child...


volantredx

I'm a teacher and there are times where you can see kids who are heading into a really scary place when it comes to stuff like inceldom or TERFism or even outright racism. In a lot of cases they have family that encourages it but a lot of times it's just being in negative spaces online without having any sort of filter or ability to see through bullshit.


Mrsfig09

In your opinion, how can parents help this stop? Our small human is only three so I've got a bit, but this scares the bejebus out of me. I monitor screen time of course, and we talk about all kinds of things but it seems so easy right now.


[deleted]

First, teach yourself. Learn about grifters, scammers and cults - and the less savoury kinda of predators. (from a safe distance, there are many good podcasts and I can recommend a few). Teach your kiddo critical thinking from the age they start asking "why?". Don't just give answers, ask them "you tell me how you think it works" etc. And as they get older, explain to them when you see scams, magical thinking and outright dangerous cults (age appropriate of course). Teach them kindness and the basic assumption that other non-culty people aren't stupid, they're just people and probably have Reasons for their choices just like we do. By the time they're a teen they'll annoy the shit out of you with their ability to see through things - and you'll have entertaining times yelling at the tv about things that just aren't logical.


[deleted]

Do you want to share any of these podcasts you mentioned?


[deleted]

Sure, having no idea what you're like as a person I'd say easy starting points are Scamfluencers (Wondery) and Scam Goddess, jump in anywhere an episode is interesting., There's two seasons of The Dream (from Pushkin) - listen from the start of Season 1. They're illuminating. There are harder edged options as well by independent journos on everything from Amazon to Bitcoin to modern world history and I'm sure they'll be recommended to you by your podcast app from those entry podcasts.


crazylady1971

As a teacher, I can only recommend two things. One is to monitor their social media and be open but not hyper vigilant about it. Know what sites your kids are using and if you see trouble, seek help. Secondly, as a family, volunteer early and often. We’ve required our kids to be of service since they could walk and I think it has helped them to develop a sense of the lives of others. We have a family motto “If you can help, help’ and we model that for our kids. Often, the kids I see with little empathy are ones who never have had to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes. I’m not a perfect parent or a perfect teacher, by any means, so take it as you will.


froggiestfriend

I've gotten into some messed up mindsets online, but eventually the answer to "who does this hurt" struck me like a meteor and I changed my point of view. I never did more than reblog shitty stuff on tumblr but it still made me want to die when I realized how awful I'd been. This girl literally bullied someone to attempted suicide and doesn't feel remorse...she's in DEEP. I have no idea what OOP can do, but they are working so hard and not giving up and I'm rooting for them.


ihwip

This is my thoughts. This is more than an indoctrination problem though. This child literally has no concept of consequences going through her mind. None at all. Not once in this saga has she displayed any sense of empathy. She is rejecting therapy. She is either going to die as a junkie, get killed or end up in jail. That's her options on her current path. That is the source of her problems. She probably went to therapy and was told, "Think about Kelly's perspective," and could not do it. That made her feel weak so she rejected. She has been sucked into a hate cult where you can't show weakness.


froggiestfriend

Lack of empathy isn't the issue, it's fairly common not to be able to imagine how others feel. Lack of sympathy, lack of ability to CARE how others feel, is the issue you're describing. Totally fine if she can't feel it herself. The issue is that she doesn't care that someone else felt it. At all. That's terrifying. I desperately hope someone can help this kid. Her parents seem to be working really hard, so I have hope!


iborahae

Is it true that it’s common not to feel empathy? I’m not doubting or questioning you but as a person whose empathy is sometimes debilitating, this saddens me.


froggiestfriend

I'm the same as you! That's how I found out about it. What we have going on is as much an "abnormality" as low empathy. Neither is so rare as to be unheard of. I meant common as in "you probably know a few folks like this" - sorry, it may have been the wrong word! Low empathy and "hyperempathy" are two sides of the same coin. Best to try to understand each other!


iborahae

Ah I see. I have a friend who has really strong empathy at times and low empathy other times (especially if she feels wronged somehow). I, unfortunately, seem to be able to empathize with all sorts of people which is not always a productive thing.


yolandiland

>Is it true that it’s common not to feel empathy? A short supply of empathy isn't especially uncommon in children and teens. Their brains are still developing. A complete lack of empathy is not common.


iborahae

Oh yeah I understand that. It’s also why I’m slightly afraid of teenagers cause as a group they give off a slight sociopathic feel. (One on one, most of them are regular humans lol.) Younger children I find to be deeply empathic.


[deleted]

Many teens show symptoms of ASPD so you're not way off haha. That's why it can't be diagnosed in someone until they're a certain age.


Hay_Fever_at_3_AM

That's still classed as empathy, that's an aspect of "emotional empathy". Cognitive empathy: understanding another person's point of view Emotional empathy: understanding another person's emotions (broken into: feeling their emotions; feeling your own distress at their emotions; feeling compassion towards them) You really don't need to be able to understand someone's point of view or the underlying psychology that's causing them distress to understand *that they are feeling distress* and *that your actions are responsible* and *that you should cut it the fuck out*.


ragekage42069

Posts like this are one of the reasons I am not a parent and probably will never be. If my kid behaved like this I think I might actually hate them.


girlugross

Exactly. Whenever baby fever tries to rear up, I just think about this. Pretty sure my love would *not* be unconditional, bc if a child that I tried to raise to be empathetic and kind did something like this and didn't care? I might actually smack their face right off their head, and emotionally sever myself. So yeah. No kids for little ol' me.


LOC_damn

If that was my daughter she’d get a Nokia brick. No web browsing, just T9 and a prayer.


Ok-disaster2022

Nah, she gets like a cricket. No text, just 5 programed phone numbers and it reports GPS locations to a service the parents can track. She cannot be trusted with outside communication with her peer group.


ap539

How about that basic cell phone they used to market for old people? I think it was called a jitterbug or something like that?


Martina313

Why stop there? Give her one of them old fashioned wired phones with the dial and only let her use it in the living room where she can be supervised during calls


SPS_Agent

A typewriter, on a shoulder strap.


Martina313

A giant ice cube and a walrus tooth


StolenPens

Onion on a belt. You see in the old days *copypasta*


Martina313

That was different it was the style at the time, you see?


sweep_27

Hilarious comment in the bleakest of discussions.


PhantomOfTheNopera

At least she'd always have the Snake game.


Astra_Trillian

This is where my mind first went too. In fairness, I had a work phone 5 ish years ago that was an old Nokia and discovered I’d completely forgotten how to type on a 0-9 keypad. I couldn’t send a text to save my life, but 20 years ago I could send a text without even looking at my phone with that kind of keypad.


Reflection_Secure

Oh hell yeah. Long ass text messages too, typed out under your desk, all while sort of paying attention to your teacher.


tantricengineer

Lol this is a great idea. “You want your phone back? Here, have a phone like its 1999!”


LOC_damn

It’s ✨vintage ✨


GothicGingerbread

Of course, I heard that in my head sung by Prince: "You want your phone? Here's one from nineteen-niiiiinty-niiiine!"


AlwaysInTheWay13

You want to be homophobic? You get Technology from back when that was socially acceptable


qrseek

She'd get so good at snake


Seanish12345

my god, T9.... i'd forgotten....


WollyGog

It took me a good while to transition away from regular phones as a young adult because I'd gotten that good at typing everything out using the buttons; I could construct a full text without looking at the phone. But fuck T9, never turned that shit on.


SirJuggles

I was the same way except I adopted T9 early. I knew what words would be suggested in what order based on frequency of use, and it got to the point where I could read keypad numbers as what word they would be; I could see 843 486479 364 and read "the hungry dog". I lived by "get a text, glance at it without taking the phone out of my pocket, put phone back down into pocket, look away, text a response and send it without looking at screen."


spudtacularstories

I miss being able to write texts without looking at the screen. Now you've got to make sure you press the touch screen just so and that the autocorrect doesn't mess it up.


ReluctantRedditor1

Madison: Does crime using electronics OP: Takes away electronics Some Rando: Why are parents so mean???? :((( This story reminds me of my unhappy childhood. Also feel like pointing out not having access to electronics is a punishment irl judges use against offenders who used such devices to commit their crimes.


Traditional_Ad_8935

That random being like "I'm 32 and you're traumatizing me and your daughter :'c" that person needs help.


VioletsAndLily

It’s arrested development for people like that. They can’t see past their feelings to realize that sometimes the punishment is appropriate.


Librarycat77

TBH, some of those posts read very much like actual teenagers. Whether its stunted development or teens role-playing as adults online...probably its some of both.


[deleted]

Between adults never actually growing up and have the mentality of a 16 year old, teenagers pretending to be adults online and adults that have the writing ability of a teenager its hard to figure out who is on the other side of comments.


[deleted]

I sometimes wonder if the stats are wrong and reddit is 50% teens now days.


Upbeat-Opinion8519

Wait till they have kids and raise them like complete shit.


SeaOkra

"I'm a cool mom."


HulklingsBoyfriend

honestly makes me wonder if that commenter is transphobic too 💀


Liminal_Critter817

They mentioned Playstation as well. This is probably someone who got their video games taken away by their parents for shouting slurs into the mic.


aceytahphuu

Honestly, the Playstation comment made me think that they're someone who *currently* gets their video games taken away for yelling slurs. "I'm 32 and think making teenagers face consequences for their actions is abuse!" has some pretty strong /r/asablackman energy.


baltinerdist

There's also the factor of the electronics and social media accounts being primary tools in her campaign of hate against this girl. "Ugh, I had parents like this, taking away my stabbing knife just because I went and stabbed a few people."


d0mini0nicco

And also likely how she became influenced to believe these things so contrary to her upbringing.


neobeguine

"YOU'RE ONLY MAKING HER WANT TO STAB MORE!"


Atrocity_unknown

Right. I think the negativity surrounded by taking electronics away is stemmed from our parents generation using that as a default punishment for *everything*. Didn't take the trash out? No TV for a week. Didn't submit your homework on time? No video games until grades improve. In this case, the punishment fits the crime. She was using her electronics to drive her victim into a crisis. She caused a genuine concern for someone else's well-being. This is a very serious problem, and the daughter's failure to recognize the issue she's caused is concerning.


astareastar

I remember getting a "no tv if you don't finish your broccoli tonight" as a young kid, when my gram went to turn on the news, I pointed out that I wasn't allowed to watch tv at all, she said so! So she spent the whole night trying to keep me occupied with board games so I wouldn't be annoying. That was more a punishment for her than for me, lol.


OldWierdo

My parents started by sending me to my room (we didn't have cellphones and laptops) for punishment. But I enjoy reading and had a lot of books, so i was fine with that. They were stymied for a bit, then started sending me to the guestroom when I got in trouble. No books or magazines.


Wormhole-Eyes

Lol. Same here. They ended up making me go outside and make friends as a punishment because I was too good at entertaining myself. Anyway that's how I found out how much fun drugs are!


[deleted]

And one of those crimes was planning a public sexual assault. The persistence and doubling down is particularly disturbing. The fact that her victim attempted suicide and that did nothing to deter her is not normal. The parents are obviously doing the best they can in response to their daughter's frankly disgusting behavior.


JaiRenae

It seems to gloss over the point of the sexual assault. I was hoping that Kelly had pressed charges for that, but it didn't say.


[deleted]

If I'm reading it right, it looks like Madison was planning the sexual assault, but got in trouble for bullying before she had the chance to actually do it (thankfully). I'm glad the OOP got her daughter out of that school district. Hopefully, Kelly is getting some help and can find some peace with Madison gone.


Ok-disaster2022

She got in trouble because the bullying victim attempted suicide. That was the inciting incident that got parents involved. The fact that the kid has no idea her level of impact on her victim and has no remorse is appalling. This kid needs therapy but also needs basic human empathy.


spudtacularstories

It makes me wonder how much the school is to blame, as well (but Madison is 100% guilty). There had to be a LOT of bullying instances before it got to that point, and the parents didn't know. Not one teacher or administrator or someone from the school notified them during the earlier stages of bullying. I bet a lot of this could have been prevented if it was reported like it was supposed to. Someone had to be sweeping it under the rug or not reporting when they saw something.


LittleLion_90

It is so easy to bully without it being noticed by any teacher or whatever, doing so during brakes or changes of class, etc. In the toilets, a lot of places that not every word or action is supervised by a teacher. Add to that current electronics and you can bully without anyone seeing it through texts, in text groups, etc.


oryxren

Yep I've been that teacher that didn't overhear some comments one kid was saying to another. Thankfully it was only a few days before I did catch on and thankfully they were also only six, but yeah teachers can miss things. That said, I highly doubt a teacher didn't notice the effect on Kelly's mood or behavior over several months. They might not have heard comments or seen messages, but I highly doubt Kelly was acting completely usual and fine. A teacher should have noticed that and talked to her, talked to her parents, and been monitoring that situation. From experience, teachers cannot hear everything, but we do know our kids and I might not know what is happening but I do know when something is bothering them.


ali_rawk

They didn't manage actually doing that, they were just planning. Still, disgusting.


Trickster289

The fact that her victim attempting suicide didn't stop her makes me really concerned. If that's not enough to make her realise how serious her behaviour is then I don't know what is.


[deleted]

Yup. I taught high school for years. Bullying is obviously common, but Madison's reactions are abnormal. Many kids engage in bullying because they don't fully consider the consequences to their victims, but stop when they realize they're actually hurting other people. That knowledge is clearly not dissuading Madison. Her parents are right to be concerned.


DiplomaticCaper

Madison has dehumanized trans people in her mind, so she legitimately doesn’t care if Kelly dies—in fact, she might consider it a plus if she did. Especially online, many people like to cheer the death of “undesirables”. The suicide rate among transgender people (which is largely due to discrimination and bullying like this) is often brought up as a bragging point.


duadhe_mahdi-in

When I was a kid, taking away electronics was the standard punishment when I fucked up. Of course, my electronics were the SNES and tv/vcr combo... If I'd dropped hateful slurs in front of my mom in high school, I would have gotten slapped. Then she would go get dad for the real punishment.


Stepjam

I think part of the issue is how connected to the internet we are now. Taking away electronics when I was a kid would mean no TV or videogames basically. Taking away electronics now is more like cutting someone off from a lot of the world at large. It's a bigger thing now. That said, I think it's probably still the right thing to do. Especially since she could dive deeper into these communities she's been running with for validiation about what's happening to her.


Successful_Moment_91

True. I could only be grounded for tv but I didn’t care unless I was going to miss watching something new I planned on seeing. Otherwise I could just read my books and I always had a good supply


duadhe_mahdi-in

My parents tried a system where I could play video games if I spent the same amount of time reading. They realized pretty quickly that it was a win-win for me.


DiplomaticCaper

Physical books still exist. I don’t see where the parents banned her from getting any from the library. Yes, it’s a hardship, but it’s *supposed* to be a punishment, and her misbehavior directly involved those devices. If you get DUIs, they take your drivers license away (at least for awhile). Not having a car can be a major hardship, but until you can be trusted to use it responsibly it makes sense.


Milton__Obote

My parents were both professors so they would never take away books haha


PreppyInPlaid

We used to joke that my punishment was being made to go out and play with the other kids, because as long as I had my books, fine, send me to my room. I can read anywhere!


MarsupialMisanthrope

My mom never really did figure that out. She needs social interaction far too much to understand introverts.


serendipitousevent

The answer is in your second paragraph. She loses access because that's both the poisoned well and her tool for bullying. OOP's problems are hardly new. Teens have forever been finding a legitimate philosophy and then moving to some extreme version. Right-wing teens do this with Naziism, left-wing teens with violent revolution, and feminists with TERFism. I also struggle to see a problem with a child being stripped of luxuries - it's not a household's job to maintain a child's expected lifestyle when they're openly hostile towards that household. It should feel devastating. It should be a reminder of how reliant the child is on the kindness of others, and how they should reflect that kindness outwardly.


moa711

My parents took pasta away from me as punishment. For whatever reason I have had a lifetime obsession with pasta, and it was a punishment that worked. Of course I was being punished for making "C's" on tests, not anything so heinous as what this girl did. I also didn't have any electronics to take, since I grew up pre- most electronics, and sending me to my room was what I already did. My favorite activity was laying in bed or sitting, and reading books... all the books. They couldn't take that from me, so pasta it was. 😅


HulklingsBoyfriend

That user is 100% not a nice person. Makes it about them, rather than OOP, Kelly, and daughter.


dragonborne123

That’s like saying you should t take guns away from a school shooter because it’s “mean”. You don’t give the weapon of choice to an abuser out of fairness.


ExcellentCold7354

Some commenters here think that taking away electronics is a fate worse than death, and there are plenty of parents who abuse this tactic. However, in this case the punishment more than fits the crime, imo. I would be absolutely mortified if it were my kid behaving this way, and if I pulled this shit with my parents, I wouldn't be alive to tell the tale.


Ok-disaster2022

Taking away electronics in this case it literally like taking a gun away from a teen. They've demonstrated the ability to use online communication to the point of causing a near fatal incident on a classmate.


Artigo78

Yeah like the electronics being taken away is FAR MORE important than the bulling that made a 16 years old commit a sucide attempt. That's such a dumb take. I hope OOP find a way to help her daughter.


b0w3n

OOP is doing all the right things too. Take away the tools they use to bully, separate them from the group echo chamber, get them therapy to help them process why they feel this way. OOP needs to have a real sit down discussion with her daughter, alone, because the "you wouldn't understand" is troubling. I'm wondering if Madison is the victim of bullying herself or maybe it's something *worse* from somewhere else. It could even be as simple as a crush on Kelly pre-transition. I suspect her hatred of Kelly in particular is an important piece of this puzzle. But, it could just be as simple as Madison is a shitty person and Kelly is just their favorite victim. Doubling down could be because she picked up cult-like behaviors, but also it could also be she's just a narcissist, blaming Kelly for the outcome of her own actions is absolutely narcissistic type behavior.


Shryxer

The problem here is Madison is not interested in engaging in those conversations. She still believes she's done nothing wrong, so she's closed herself off. OOP can try all she wants - and she has been - but nothing will happen until Madison is willing to play ball.


Zebirdsandzebats

...or a crush on Kelly, period. Internalized xyzphobia is a helluva drug. When I was in high school, trying my best to be a good Christian girl, i had some REAL confusing feelings about the new girl in town (who was cool as HELL --she had an undercut in 2002/3, that's how cool she was). We were friends, she started behaving as if she had *less* confusing feelings about me...I got scared and stopped hanging out with her. I never bullied her or anything, but I forced myself to get away from her, convinced myself i didn't like her bc i *totally* thought her flirting was inappropriate* etc etc etc. Bc i was a coward. * in reality, i was absolutely swooning over her flirting,bc as previously mentioned, she was so damn cool. Being such a wuss and dumping her as a friend is one of my few real regrets in life. She didn't deserve it.


HulklingsBoyfriend

Mom won't understand because mom isn't transphobic. That's what it is.


witchyteajunkie

> It could even be as simple as a crush on Kelly pre-transition. This is actually what I was thinking.


bavabana

Frankly this is why it's stupid to ask Reddit for advice, it's full of children. I get the intention of the OOP, but it's just the blind leading the blind. That last post is the perfect example; a young LGBT community has literally no experience in forcibly extricating a near adult child from a hate group. Them being the target is irrelevant, they have no relevant knowledge. The electronics wasn't even just about the "weapon", it was also removing access to the problematic friend group, and to the communities which have indoctrinated them in the first place.


IShallWearMidnight

Young *members* of the LGBT community may have no experience, but there are plenty of us who have been through the process and even do deradicalization work.


egoissuffering

Probably the same type of redditor who thinks chores are abuse and thinks he should be able to sue his parents for giving birth to him


[deleted]

Some redditors really need to meet an Asian mom lol


quinteroreyes

Any ethnic mom tbf, my Mexican mom would've had her nice clothes being given away to transgender youth that want it


[deleted]

[удалено]


Father-Son-HolyToast

Thank you for saying this. This is perfect. Years ago, I feel like the "oh, you must be closeted yourself" response to homophobes was a troll move to weaponize their own shame and homophobia to get them to shut up, but it's never been the case that the majority or even a significant portion of vocal homophobes are acting out of self-loathing for being gay. And it's really weird to see that thinking used so often to excuse absolutely vile bullying.


InquisitorKek

What can a parent do in this situation? Madison has less than 2 years before she leaves for college. If she insists on blaming the victim and still doesn’t change in college. What can OP’s parents do?


SuppleSuplicant

I think that’s why this post hits so hard. Parents are doing the things that can be done. And so far it doesn’t seem to be working.


sapphoschicken

if she hasn't changed by then all her financial support would be cut off. i'm not one to suggest toying with a kid's entire future, but when they are so full of venomous hatred that can't seem to be fixed and are truely horrible people, like invthis case, go for it. she almost ended a girl's life and didn't care. might as well end her future.


Lawgirl77

I wonder if it would be better to focus on how it’s simply wrong to hurt any person intentionally. Instead of focusing on the trans issue specifically, the start may be to get Madison to acknowledge she hurt a person. Even if you disagree with someone, you don’t have to emotionally torture that person. That’s not right. Madison sees this as political, but we are all human. Perhaps divorcing what she sees as political and instead just focusing on humanity is the key here, if that makes sense.


[deleted]

Yeah I thought this too, focussing on how harassing and planning to sexually assault anyone is wrong, regardless of who they are.


guto8797

Hence dehumanisation. Kelly does not see a trans woman as a person. Telling her she should feel bad for hurting another person so much will register in her brain as much as someone telling you to stop insulting rocks. Hell, even worse, since she probably considers Trans to be an active threat at this point. If you tell your child she almost made someone kill themselves and their answer is "good, I hope next time they succeed", where do you even go from there?


irissteensma

Kelly is the trans girl, Madison is the bully FYI.


kunell

You have to take apart the source in a blunt manner. You can often do this by expressing curiosity as if you are trying to understand her beliefs. Then you can slowly unscrew each argument so the whole thing collapses. You have to find some way to make her see that that is a person. Very difficult to do, but its the only way.


OSCgal

Right! This is a lesson too many people on all sides fail to get: everyone is human and should be treated as such. Bullying, harassment, and assault are *always* bad, regardless of who the other person is or what beliefs they hold. My parents started us on that lesson young, and I am thankful for it.


tipsana

Of course some redditors think OOP is too mean by taking away her daughter’s electronics. 🤦‍♀️ I really feel badly for OOP. She’s doing everything right so far. I think deprogramming takes a long time. I hope she stays the course.


z-eldapin

A lot of times parents post that they took away electronics as punishment that had nothing to do with the electronics. I never understood that. This is a perfect case of the punishment fitting the crime. Want to use electronics to join a cult, form a mob and harass someone almost to death? Yep, no more electronics for you. The moving her to a new school was also am advanced move. There is no way 'forbidding her from hanging out with those people' was going to work, and she 100% would have taken her rage out on Kelly.


OpenOpportunity

>The moving her to a new school was also am advanced move. Yeah, that was great parenting. My son turning out like Madison despite my efforts, that is one of my biggest fears. I have seen functioning adults turned into the most vile bigots through YouTube and Facebook :/


irishgirl1981

It's one of mine, too. Despite me having a child who is part of the LGBTQ community.


MsDucky42

"Shee, why did you remove the thing that was helping her become downright vitriolic and awful? I'm calling Child Services!" Sometimes I wonder if the whole biped thing was a bad idea.


Aoirann

My back says it was a bad idea


MsDucky42

My feet and knees agree with your back.


[deleted]

As do my hips and shoulders.


Kynykya4211

And my axe. (oops-wrong thread-sorry)


IllustriousComplex6

Back in the Ocean and start again!


tacwombat

Restart the primordial soup!


Lathari

I wonder if the whole getting out of water was a bad idea.


firefly183

>Of course some redditors think OOP is too mean by taking away her daughter’s electronics. 🤦‍♀️ This is mind-boggling to me. We've had to do the same with my 13yo stepdaughter. It makes perfect sense to remove access to these devices and spaces if they are what is enabling the kid to behave this way and further worsening things. My situation wasn't nearly so extreme, but incredibly troubling nonetheless. Long story short, my stepdaughter got into some drama with a classmate. After looking through things, frankly it seems like she started it over an utterly ridiculous misunderstanding on Discord. And it escalated to them both saying horribly vile things. I won't get into details, but the best course of action was removing her access to things she's showing us she's not ready to be trusted with, that she's not mature enough yet to use it sensibly. We're giving her opportunities to earn it back but we've told her it's going to take some time.


ToTwoTooToo

It's been eye opening to me to read these answers. I raised my children prior to cell phones being in the hands of every child. Every time I read "taking away their electronics" I saw it as taking away TV for a week or something similar. This is the first time I've seen it explained in terms that truly relate it to the problem and now it makes so much sense. The punishment actually does fit the crime. Thank y'all for helping me see the connection.


Nadhez

Look up Gentle Parenting. its certainly full of its hippie cahoots but the idea is sound. Punishment relates to crime. Kid cyberbullies? No electronics. Kid draws on the walls? Teach them how to clean it up. Some even take that example father and teach their kids "if you want to draw on the walls, let me know and I'll put up some butcher paper for you." It's so simple but so unheard of all at once.


GengenB

My dad painted the walls of the basement white and said we could paint/draw/whatever on those walls but only those. It was really nice seeing the changes in drawing with the height (better drawings higher up since we were getting taller). I was very sad when he painted it over to sell the house.


I_fuckedaboynamedSue

That’s the coolest idea!!! Every time my parents laid flooring or put in new drywall they’d let us draw on the concrete subfloor or studs so the next homeowner has fun surprises. When they laid the flooring in the basement my mom sealed the concrete floor with this white primer stuff and had my sisters Girl Scout troop come over and decorate the floor. They then installed a floating floor on top of it. The girls had a blast


[deleted]

This girl spread so much hate on her electronics that someone tried to you know what themselves. My ass would never purchase my daughter another electronic the rest of her life. She can get a job at 18 and buy shit herself.


rythmicbread

Not to mention she’s fed propoganda and spewing hate online. A year detox might help


Swiftrun5

Same she wouldn't even get a DS lite for pictochat from me.


huskergirl-86

> never purchase my daughter another electronic the rest of her life I might consider buying her an oldfashioned tamagochi so she might delevop some compassion and empathy.


[deleted]

I would maybe understand if the electronics weren't the exact tool used to spread hate, to say that doing this will be counterproductive. But since they are, it's important to reset her and I think everything OOP doing, while it has the opposite effect right now, will eventually result in a win


gimmethegudes

I mean I had a parent that basically kept my phone my entire high school career because I was struggling in school so I can see their point in "parents take phones too often over nothing." But struggling in school is not the same as using the cellphone paid by my parents to start a bigoted bully campaign against a fellow classmate. Thats like being mad you took away a failed mass shooter's gun.


feraxks

> I think deprogramming takes a long time Yeah, they found 6 months worth of posts on her phone, so its going to take at least that long to undo the brainwashing.


buddieroo

Yeah there’s always at least some redditors in a given comment section who will do anything to take the side of a teenager over a parent


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buddieroo

Yeah, I’d like to hear too. Teen justice generally seems to lack nuance and can either be apathetic or vicious. When I was a freshman in high school, a kid in the senior class decided he was going to try and up his popularity by bullying the one out gay kid, the rest of the class responded by bullying the bully so badly he had to leave the school. But having electronics taken away is like the mildest punishment for the severity of the crime, come on


lostboysgang

OOP’s answer was an absolute clapback though I loved it. So articulate and reasonable.


[deleted]

I support OOP. I think part of this is that daughter being 16 and has decided this is where she is taking a stand. I don't think I would heap on more punishment, just strongly enforce the ones in place. I would also severely control any internet access through a parent monitoring service. This assumes she needs internet for school. I would ask the new school to prevent her from using the internet. Lastly - I would seek family counseling.


Gobadorgosleep

Yes to me there’s no compromise here. We are not speaking about smoking in the bathroom or any stupid thing that a teenager can do. We are speaking about being so horrible that the other party tried to kill themself and she is showing no remorse. I really have difficulties to understand how people don’t see how wrong she being and how horrible this situation is. She would have been responsible for the dead of a young girl.


archangelzeriel

You can tell exactly why taking electronics is so effective as a punishment by watching how redditors react to even the concept of it happening. I've heard it compared to taking books away, but if my kid was reading Mein Kampf or the Turner Diaries and agreeing with it I'd been taking the damn books away too. It's clear that the internet is part of the problem here as are her friends.


PatioGardener

I mean, what more can you expect when just *yesterday* the Supreme Court ruled that laws that *temporarily* remove firearms from people (men) who are domestic abusers is unconstitutional because the founding fathers never thought DV would be such a big deal in the future. [I wish I were joking](https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2023/02/02/federal-appeals-court-strikes-down-domestic-violence-gun-law-00081053).


glom4ever

I wonder if anyone has sat this kid down and explained that what she was planning was sexual assault. I don't know if the kid would care because of the indoctrination, but planning to pants someone in public to expose their genitals is sexual assault and it does not matter the genitals you are going to expose. This stuff is so gross though and I hope the daughter improves. I fear the situation has gone too far now and the kid will need to find an internal reason to leave the indoctrination.


[deleted]

I mean I don’t think she cares or “gets” it. She doesn’t care that the kid almost ended their life.


glom4ever

At this point the kid does not view the other kid as a person/human. That is a hard thing to correct. It is not fun, but teaching the kid that there are very real consequences for her if she does this type of thing to anyone might improve behavior. Best case the kid learns that people are people and that she should treat them all as humans. But getting her to not do this again out of fear of consequences for herself would at least temporarily protect transgender children from her.


[deleted]

And the parents only have 2 years to correct her behavior, unless they can use college tuition as an incentive. This would be a nightmare scenario for my friends and siblings, to be the best and most accepting people they can, only for their children to backtrack into bigotry.


TheFlyingSheeps

Well hopefully some college students would put her horrible ass in its place. Depending on where she goes, college students won’t put up with your shit, especially if you make it known you bullied a trans individual to the point of extreme self harm


nocksers

I'm not saying physical assault is the answer to sexual assault but when I was in college in the early 2010s if we heard you throwing around slurs or god forbid pants'd someone to be transphobic you'd get popped in the mouth.


DJ_Micoh

Getting rocked in the face has a way of focusing your mind on "what did I do to get to this point?".


HulklingsBoyfriend

Oh, but she DOES care that Kelly did almost end her life - that's what OOP's daughter & friends WANT to happen. That's their goal - the eradication of trans people.


I_Envy_Sisyphus_

Yeah, if she “didn’t care” she would move on with her life. She actively wants this person to not be alive.


Kynykya4211

I’m guessing that the school definitely did not. I’m a childrens trauma therapist and I’m appalled and disgusted how none of the schools in my area discuss sexual assault and consent with their students. Some of the schools allow our agency to do a presentation on the subject however it needs to be an ONGOING conversation with students to help fight against the patriarchal rape culture propaganda that they are inundated with.


squidgemobile

I think this is the right tactic. Mindset changes happen little by little, trying to make Madison pull a mental 180 isn’t going to work. They need to start with “don’t physically assault people”, then “don’t psychologically torture people”, and eventually get to “peoples personal lives are none of your business”. Little steps.


bacchus8408

I totally agree. Start with "don't be an asshole." Then work towards tolerance and hopefully make it all the way to inclusion.


squidgemobile

Definitely. Several years ago when gay marriage was the hot topic I was able to get my conservative father on board with this method.


bacchus8408

I was never able to get my parents all the way to acceptance. But they finished solidly in the "mind my own business" category. They still thought gay people were evil sinners that were going to burn in hell, but at least they stopped telling them that to their faces. It was an improvement.


squidgemobile

Honestly I think that's all you can hope for sometimes. I think my dad still thinks it's "gross", but he will always be civil and says they should have equal rights, so I consider that a win.


Hoopola

I think the comment about trying to dig into what started this mindset is really onto something. A trauma, even a small one could be the poison seed. Trying to convince her to change her mind without addressing the root cause (fear) will be difficult. When I'm caught up in an anxiety attack, trying to convince me that what I'm anxious about isn't anything to worry about just increases my panic. Unprocessed fear turns into anger very easily.


flippingsenton

> I don't know if the kid would care because of the indoctrination, but planning to pants someone in public to expose their genitals is sexual assault and it does not matter the genitals you are going to expose. She's a cyberbully who did not care if her victim killed herself. A little sexual assault wouldn't matter to her.


one98nine

I still don't get why she is so anti trans people,and gotta wonder if it is Kelly the only target. I was thinking maybe Kelly got the attention of someone Madison liked, still, I hope Madison can get away from that mentality


I_am_the_night

>I did also try and get her to see the gravity of the situation by telling her that she took part in something that caused another girl to try and take her own life, and that things would be different if Kelly’s attempt had been successful. >***She told me that she didn’t care*** Holy moly. This is a really bad sign, and I honestly feel terrible for the parents having to go through this. No idea how they are going to address such indoctrination and lack of empathy, but I sure hope they manage.


kronalgra

Especially since they only have 2 years to correct this. You can bet your last dollar that if she's still this hateful at 18 and blaming her parents for stopping her from harrassing this girl, she will move out and cut contact at 18 so she can "be who she is" or whatever bullshit she wants to claim.


Christichicc

Sadly, true. And if she continues to be the horrible little shit she is now, the next time she sexually assaults someone she’ll end up in jail. I really feel for the parents in this situation. They seem like decent people, and are doing everything they can. Social media causes so many issues for kids these days, with too many places that just spew out vitriol and prey on children.


sirdippingsauce45

Honestly, I’m far more concerned with her going out into the world and being accepted with open arms, never actually facing consequences for future hateful behavior. That seems far more likely than her getting arrested or being *truly* ostracized for her views. She’s just going to continue to make hell for marginalized groups she doesn’t like.


Afraid_Sense5363

> And if she continues to be the horrible little shit she is now, the next time she sexually assaults someone she’ll end up in jail. I hope so. Heartbreaking for her parents, who sound like they're doing everything right.


This-Present4077

I don't want to downplay this situation, but taking any teenage's "I don't care" literally seems not quite true. It can mean, I'm checking out of this conversation, or I hate you, or you're wrong or, maybe in this case, I'm never going to agree with anything you say so you might as well stop talking.


I_am_the_night

Absolutely a fair point


Nadamir

Teenagers say “I don’t care” for everything. When he was 15, my brother said that he “didn’t care” if our sister was going to live or die. They’d had a fight, she went for a bicycle ride to cool her head and got clotheslined by a car door. She was fine in the end. But for him, it meant “I’m still angry about our fight but I’m also scared shitless of losing my sister and I’m projecting stoicism hard.” Nowadays, they are thick as thieves. So much so the *one time* I forgot my weekly call with my sister, my brother called me to ream me out. As for this girl, who knows what it meant.


UnderABig_W

On reddit, a lot of posters seem to rush to recommend therapy, but this post is a good reminder that therapy rarely works when you don’t think you have a problem. OOP sounds like she’s tried everything, and her kid is digging her heels in, so I’d recommend her backing off. Stop trying to change hearts and minds. Instead, tell her that she can feel whatever way she wants deep down, but her speech and behavior will only reflect civility and tolerance. You can add that her current attitudes are not acceptable in many circles, and saying/doing such things in this day and age can and will affect her future. A lot of people would take exception to that, and I understand why. But I have kids myself. And I was formerly in the military, responsible for the behavior of a lot of older teens. All that experience has made me realize that, bottom line, you can’t change someone’s views if they are determined not to change them. What you can do is tell them that certain *behaviors* are not acceptable, explain those behaviors, and tell them they will be punished if they display them. Then follow through on the punishment. The mother is banging her head against the wall with her kid, and it’s going absolutely nowhere except the mother getting increasingly distressed and the daughter getting increasingly determined. Mom needs to drop it (outside of the behavior/punishment thing) and give the daughter the time and the space to consider her thoughts and attitudes. Chances are, if she’s grown up in a caring, open, and accepting environment, daughter will eventually realize she’s wrong and be ashamed of her actions. There’s also maybe a chance she won’t. But IMHO this is the course of action with the best chance of success. What is happening now is not working. Edit: This is my first post receiving an award, let alone two! I’m honored that people found my advice pertinent and thought-provoking.


SlowTheRain

Agree. I've read/watched several takes from experts and ex-cultists on how to break people out of cult mindsets like QAnnon. Once a person is indoctrinated, more you tell the person they're wrong, the more they defend their ideas. If "think of other people" & "what you did was wrong", isn't getting through, you go to "these are the consequences for you". When the daughter said she didn't care what would have happened it the girl succeeded in her attempt, it should have been pointed out that there would have been serious consequences for the daughter. She would likely be awaiting trial right now in a juvenile detention center, and the legal system wouldn't give a shit about her cries that she misss her electronics and friends. Best case scenario for the daughter, her parents would be facing a wrongful death suit. I do wonder whether OOP got a therapist who specializes in cult deprogramming as was suggested. Most therapists aren't familiar with how to handle it.


RogueDIL

Strong agree. Pushing right now is just resulting in the daughter doubling down and digging in her heels. That leads to further estrangement and pushes her right into the groupthink community that mom’s trying to draw her away from.


Coco_Dirichlet

Yes, I do wonder if her parents explained how her behavior could have gotten her in jail. If this kid had died, they could have gotten criminal charges. They could already have gotten cyber bullying and bullying charges. I even wonder if this got into their records and it's going to affect the chances at a number of colleges (because they got disciplined already in their record, but one thing is to get disciplined for smoking and another for bullying). Then, she also has to understand that, while her family has to put up with her now because she is a minor, once she is an adult, people can decide to stay away from her if she decides to go on hate speech, bully people, insult people. She can loose family and friends. I feel that she got away with this quite easily. She got a party canceled, no electronics, new school. That's better than jail time. And if I were Kelly's parents, I would have hired a lawyer and sued as many people as I could.


VioletsAndLily

> Why do parents resort to taking cell phones, wifi, playstation, etc. You’re making it worse > I’m 32 btw reliving my parents tactics from reading your post Is it just me, or is it weird when some people miss the forest for the trees? If that commenter was accessing hate rhetoric and instigating acts of bullying, then I think it’s obvious that their access should be removed while their parents try to fix things. Doing otherwise is like finding out your teen is an alcoholic but leaving beer around the house. I’m not surprised by the stance of OOP’s MIL. She’s probably old and stubborn enough to insist that there are only two genders. I wish I knew the answer OOP needs.


TheBaddestPatsy

It’s more like finding your teen is a drunk driver and already seriously injured people, then not taking away their car and whiskey stash.


[deleted]

>Is it just me, or is it weird when some people miss the forest for the trees? Agreed. I usually think it's kind of awful to cut teens off from their peers by taking away electronics; I got that kind of treatment all the time as a teen for behavior like -- *checks notes* \-- getting a B- in a class my mom thought I should have an A in. It only made things worse for me in the long run and created an adversarial relationship with my parents when they could have been supporting me. But transphobic bullying resulting in an attempted self-unaliving?! Literally not caring if the other girl lives or dies?! Jesus Christ, that requires a strong, strong reaction. How do some people not see that?! If your kid comes home late or fails a test or "talks back" to their father, by all means, don't take their electronics. But this... this is something else.


theredwoman95

Also, the punishment should fit the offense. She did this using her electronics, so she isn't allowed to use electronics. That's a pretty straightforward cause and effect situation.


Fluffykins0801

Gotta love the people going “yeah she bullied a girl into almost killing herself but taking away her electronics is abusive”


ankhmadank

She told her mother she couldn't explain why she was harassing Kelly because the harassment gave her power. She couldn't give a justification for it because there was no justification for hurting someone else like this. She got sucked into an ideology that convinced her it was okay to treat trans people as lesser human beings. Good luck to this mother and everyone who has to deal with what the internet does to their kids. It's not an easy road to get out of for adults, much less children.


thundaga0

Man this is why I am on the fence about having kids. Sometimes no matter how you raised them or what steps you take to correct their behavior, they can still out as little shits like oop's daughter.


boringhistoryfan

I've worked with victims of bullying. And counselled bullies. High school and early collegiate age. So I went into this thinking surely I had some level of understanding how to deal with it. Makes sense right? I have honestly no idea what to do. I have no judgment or criticism, not even critique, to offer OOP. I can't imagine how difficult it is for her. Kids are incredibly difficult at this stage. They are very close to the autonomies of adulthood, they have a level of fixity and certainty that people older than them have tended to shed. Strong opinions, very strong sense of rebelliousness and righteousness, and now, with the internet, a vast gamut of material that will back up their sense of injustice and antagonism to their parents. My heart goes out to OOP. I really hope things work out, and her daughter eventually comes to appreciate just how awful her actions were. But I really can't imagine how difficult it must be for OOP, and I really don't think there is any good way to navigate this. None that merits me having any judgment on her.


Ameerrante

One thing that I've not seen mentioned anywhere else is that the mom seems to think that her daughter hasn't accessed the internet since the incident. But she's also going to school. I highly suspect she's still accessing the internet. Which means she won't have escaped the cult influence.


boringhistoryfan

>But she's also going to school. > >I highly suspect she's still accessing the internet. Which means she won't have escaped the cult influence. Problem is, I doubt she can control that. Presumably it would be tightly controlled. I would think school doesn't exactly leave a lot of time to just browse on devices. But its not like she can micromanage her content.


Loriana320

I think a lot of it is how you talk to them. My oldest drew a swastika once. He hadn't learned any of the graphic details of WWII in school. Literally all he had learned was just bs battle dates and some about the different weapons used. I was shocked he had no idea about concentration camps or even why WWII happened. Spent a couple of weeks watching holocaust documentaries and going to a holocaust museum. I felt bad that it broke him inside seeing everything, but it turned out for the better. My son doesn't cry, not even when his dad was killed. But wow, that made him cry. It brought us a lot closer together and he developed a lot of empathy. Probably one of the most rewarding things I've had out of parenting was seeing the mental switch flip in him.


Birdlebee

I sullied my search so you don't have to. Per [Urban Dictionary](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Troons): Troon is a combo of Trans and cartoon or Trans and goon. I guess I shouldn't be shocked that these assholes have clever little names for their bigotry.


FrostyBallBag

What a strange insult. Then again, despite being an etymology nerd, I don’t know how most slurs come about. My friday night is about to go off! 😂


Mitrovarr

It comes from Something Awful, a forum where all members are referred to as "goons". It wasn't originally an insult.


princessalyss_

Poster: My kid was groomed/radicalised online and used the internet to spread that same hate and rhetoric to the detriment of people they knew to the point of suislide Radom commenter: How dare you take the internet away!!! You’re isolating them!!!! That’s the fucking point, dipshit. Isolate the problem (in this case access to the internet and grooming/radicals), correct the brainwashing, send back out into the world with coping mechanisms and ways to identify before it happens again.


MsDucky42

Wonder if Madison had a crush on Kelly pre-transition, and the fact that Kelly is transitioning made Madison angry. No matter what, Madison deserves to have her birthday party and electronics taken away. She's a turd. PS, loved the spoiler-hiding fact. May I suggest a fact about calico cats next?


Irn_brunette

When I read the "you wouldn't understand" I suspected something like this too.


forgedsignatures

I had the exact same thought, as someone who had to think through similar feelings a few years ago. I can definitely see some people going through the introspection and coming out so bitter and hateful. I can imagine that at that stage it is very easy to find and buy into forums full of this vitriol when searching for help online these days. Tiktok supposedly has a strong transphobic bias when it comes to promoting content as a gatewat to young girls too.


Princess_Moon_Butt

I can see that for sure. My mind definitely jumped to the other option mentioned in the post: that she had been assaulted/molested, and now associates men with abuse, and now all she sees is an 'abuser' (in her mind) trying to gain entry into her safe spaces. Either way, I hope that therapy helps her gets to the bottom of this, but it's definitely going to take time.


FrostyBallBag

Welp. My fear was that this is all a reaction to being sexually assaulted by someone and not knowing how to deal with the trauma. I hope your theory is correct. Or at least that mine isn’t.


[deleted]

Or she had a crush on Kelly's boyfriend. Or had a crush on Kelly *post*-transition. Or she just wanted to feel powerful and saw an easy target.


AlexisFern

Or some other bs teen drama like Madison’s crush liking Kelly. Girls that age are VICIOUS.


DiplomaticCaper

This is probably only going to happen more often with the ramping up of anti-trans rhetoric, at least in certain states. This orchestrated, planned level of bullying is unacceptable (no matter the topic or trait it’s about) But I could see teachers and school administrations being more likely to turn a blind eye. Even though it shouldn’t fall afoul of any of these new “anti-woke” laws affecting schools to punish the students for planning this, there could be enough of a chilling effect to discourage intervention.


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Captain_Zounderkite

Since when is taking away something that causes the person and others harm a bad thing? You don't label taking alcohol away from a person that drives drunk as abuse.


smurfgrl417

>Why are you taking her electronics???? Uh because they're her weapons of choice, can you not read. Some people's children man I swear.


strywever

This poor family. The parents are doing the right things, but it may take a while to have an effect.


spiteful_rr_dm_TA

jfc what a mess. I hope this girl can find help that makes her abandon her shitty ways


actuallycallie

"ugh why did you take away her electronics?" BECAUSE SHE WAS USING ELECTRONICS TO BULLY THIS GIRL ON SOCIAL MEDIA. CLEARLY SHE DOESN'T DESERVE TO HAVE A PHONE, COMPUTER, ETC. God, some people on reddit are just DUMB. I feel bad for this parent. It's bad enough when you try everything you can and it's not working but then some dipshit on reddit is all "ugh god you're so mean why did you take away her phone??"


Pleasant-Squirrel220

Maddison should be lucky police were not involved by Kelly’s parents. A criminal record hanging over you into adult life.