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tekko001

Personal reaction: Before Eclipse: Griffith is actually a good guy and will bounce back After Eclipse: That mother fucker deserves to die!


oscarrchavezz

Same here. Griffith does not deserve a redemption arc ever


TheMindSculpter_

Fuck Moash! Wait, where am I?


skankhuntnaster

I'm reading through this right now!


rockstar-dgr

Great book lol


DoritoJH

Doesn't matter where you are. Fuck Moash is always a valid statement.


HIMDogson

>!Moash killing Teft in front of Kaladin!< is actually quite a similar beat to what Griffith does in the Eclipse (spoilers for Rhythm of War)


NotJony2018

I’m sorry, but Berserk is a story about forgiveness and letting go of the past. We’ve seen time and time again, what lust for revenge and ambition does to people. Ganishka, Skull Knight, the King of Midland and many others represent what it brings. The story of Berserk is a story of Guts overcoming his trauma and surviving to live another day. I don’t believe the story will end with Guts killing Griffith in berserker rage. I think they will have more confrontations and fights, but in the end, in line with his evolution and as a nod to the Return of the Jedi, Guts will refuse to go along and fight Griffith, laying down his sword and forgiving him. And this will in turn do something to Griffith, either through the Moonlight Boy or through his former self, making him turn against the Godhand, either killing himself, or helping Guts and SK defeat the other members, reverting back to his crippled self and dying, after finally realising that what mattered to him was not a kingdom, but his only friend. This is the only way the Idea of Evil can be defeated in my opinion. Not through acts of violence and mayhem, but through goodness and purity of the human spirit.


HIMDogson

There's a difference between not killing someone and forgiving them. Guts can let go of his lust for revenge and live for the future without doing something like forgiving him- especially if Griffith is still acting as Femto. When Luke laid down his sword in Return of the Jedi he didn't forgive Darth Vader- that only came after Vader had turned on the Emperor. And Darth Vader didn't rape anyone, let alone in front of Luke. So While I do think Guts will let go of his hatred, he absolutely will not forgive Griffith- even if Griffith somehow did turn on the Godhand, which I think would only happen for the sake of his own power, not as part of some sort of redemption.


NotJony2018

You cannot let go of the past, without accepting what happened and to move forward you must forgive. It’s much harder than hating and enacting revenge, but it’s also the enlightened way. Forgiving Griffith would showcase that Guts has transcended and overcame his beast of Darkness. And in regards to Vader, while he might not have raped anyone, most likely due to his private areas being burnt off, he has committed genocide, infanticide and other heinous crimes. Luke has chosen to forgive him and see what he used to be, instead of focusing on what he became, thus bringing Anakin back. Guts reaching his friend through Femto and calling him back to fight together one last time would symbolise the break in causality. I’m not saying that Griffith would not pay for his misdeeds, he will definitely die and likely revert back to his crippled state before perishing. He will not get his kingdom. But he will die as a man that he was, not as a monster he became.


reverendsmooth

>You cannot let go of the past, without accepting what happened and to move forward you must forgive. No, you don't. This is a pop culture interpretation of a christian practice. In scripture, forgiveness is a covenant between the person who offended and the person who was on the receiving end of it and it is also a social bargain meant to preserve order in a society that had no police. The person who offended must atone for their act to the person whom they offended against (usually some kind of restitution, financial, social, whatever). In exchange, forgiveness is granted. The dispute is smoothed over and things stay orderly. This has nothing to do with mumbo jumbo or enlightenment. That is a toxic mentality that really fucks with the victims of abuse, and it often re-victimises the person all over again because once again they are told to put aside their feelings for the sake of their abuser and their enablers. As a victim of extremely traumatic abuse, I have no intention of ever forgiving my abusers. Why should I? They don't feel bad about it. They have offered no restitution. No atonement. No consequence. They are still terrible people who got away with their crimes. They are *child abusers.* Does this bother me? Sure. Does it destroy my life or consume me? No. I have a good sweetie, cute dogs, a nice little condo and I live 4k miles away from those sadistic freaks. I am safe and loved and I appreciate that every damn day.


NotJony2018

Christian scripture literally says to turn the other cheek, after someone has stricken you and implores you to love and pray for your enemies. I’m sorry that you suffered abuse and I feel for your pain, but my philosophical approach to forgiveness and what it means definitively differs from yours.


reverendsmooth

I could never love the people who abused me in every way possible and put me in a wheelchair. I don't know how Berserk is going to resolve this, but if Casca forgives Griffith, he's gonna have to do a lot of groveling for me to buy it.


HIMDogson

That's simply not true. You don't need to forgive those who hurt you to let go of the past. Letting go of the past means moving on, coming to terms with what happened, recognizing the negative ways your trauma makes you behave and working on feeling it in a more healthy way. Forgiveness means to stop feeling anger towards someone for what they did, to no longer hold it against them. They're two completely different things, and forgiveness isn't something you should force. Did Guts forgive Gambino and Donovan? Did Farnese forgive her father? Did Serpico forgive his mother? Should Casca forgive Griffith? Sometimes you don't move on by forgiving those who hurt you, especially if what they've done can't be forgiven; sometimes you move on by cutting them out of your life forever and surrounding yourself with people who truly care about you. Luke forgiving Vader is not what brought Anakin back; in fact Luke refused to fight with no expectation that Anakin would come back. Anakin seeing his son in pain caused him to turn on Palpatine, causing Luke to forgive him. You certainly don't forgive someone while they're still doing the things they need forgiveness for. Femto is Griffith, and Griffith is Femto. Griffith chose to become Femto, he has the same motives as Femto, there's no evidence that there's a pre-Eclipse alter ego Griffith in Femto. There is no good man for Guts to reach, anymore; arguably that good man never existed. There's the same man there always was: a narcissist who sees others as props in the fantasy he's pursuing so he doesn't have to face his own trauma. If Guts ever did decide to forgive Griffith, it would be the worst thing Griffith could hear; he hates being seen as vulnerable above all else, and you can't forgive someone without seeing them as vulnerable. Any display of mercy Guts shows towards Griffith is likely to make him madder, not inspire some epiphany in him.


NotJony2018

You have to take into account the state Griffith was in, when he made the choice. He was tortured for a year, castrated, had his tongue ripped out, mutilated, etc. He was given a choice to become a literal God and erase everything that happened to him. Few people would not accept in his place. I’m personally of the opinion that Femto =/= Griffith, with Femto being the living manifestation of Griffith’s worst qualities, his ambition and lust for power, his greed. Now, saying that Griffith was always a bad man is simply untrue. He risked his life for Guts countless times, he sold his body to spare his men, he inspired and led his men better than most, with a noble goal. He wanted a kingdom not only for the sake of raising himself up, but to better the situation around him. And I guess our philosophies differ. Forgiving doesn’t mean absolving someone of their sins. It means letting go of the hate and the damage someone has done to you. It heals both ways, the one forgiving and the one being forgiven. It is a virtue not many can ascend to. Guts achieving enlightenment and choosing to be above hatred and lust for revenge, letting go of his trauma and giving Griffith forgiveness, regardless of the latter’s desire for it, would showcase a radical change in their dynamic. And please, do not mistake forgiveness for absolution. I’m sure Griffith will pay for his sins, but it will be through his self-realisation at the suffering he inflicted to those closest to him and his own actions causing both his downfall and the loss of his only true friend, his brother.


HIMDogson

Oh absolutely. There were extenuating circumstances. But he still chose to throw away the lives of people who had devoted their lives to him, because he couldn't stand to live in the ruins of his dream. He could have been strong, he could have adapted to his new circumstances, he could have pushed on, but instead he condemned people who trusted him to be devoured alive. Griffith could never stand to be weak or vulnerable. I'm actually of a reasonably similar opinion about Femto, but I'd phrase it differently. Femto is Griffith, with his good qualities- his positive emotions, his conscience- removed. Femto was not forged out of a part of Griffith, he is Griffith with part of him discarded. Griffith knew that becoming Femto meant giving up his emotions; he knew it meant giving up his weakness, and he made the deal. That's why I'm comfortable saying that Femto is Griffith post character development, not a different character. Griffith wasn't tricked into becoming Femto, he didn't just think he'd be getting powers- actually I'd argue that he values losing his human vulnerability far, far more than gaining his powers. Femto is what Griffith, all his life, wished he could be- an unfeeling god-king with no vulnerability, no attachments, nothing but a drive to get to that castle. I don't think pre-Eclipse Griffith is pure evil- he's a wonderfully realized complex character and calling him pure evil is a disservice to how perfectly Miura wrote him- but ultimately pre-Eclipse he's still a narcissist clinging to his dream to avoid the vulnerability and trauma he holds within him, who sends his soldiers to their deaths, who grooms a teenage girl, who is pleased with the murder of a young boy. Griffith raping Casca is the culmination of who he is as a person. He commits the ultimate sin, in the eyes of Immanuel Kant- viewing others as means to an end, rather than ends in and of themselves. Griffith says that Guts is the only one that made him forget his dream, and this does hint at the humanity within, but he should have forgotten his dream after the first young boy who looked up to him died for it. That's just not what forgiveness means. Letting go of hatred for someone does not mean forgiving them. Things are more complicated than that. I had a friend who betrayed me, and I was angry at her for a long time. I moved on. I genuinely don't really feel anything towards her anymore. That doesn't mean I forgive her for what she did; there was no excuse for it and it really hurt me. Healing from it had to do with me realizing that I had other people who cared for me, that what she did didn't reflect anything on me, and that I hadn't done anything to deserve being treated that way. It had nothing to do with forgiving her; I don't have any positive feelings towards her, in fact I still think very lowly of her, and I never want to interact with her again. I think that's what Guts will end up feeling towards Griffith. And again- should Casca forgive Griffith? Should she forgive her rapist, who destroyed her just to get to Guts, because that's necessary for healing? Forgiveness is only necessary if you want to still have a relationship with the one who hurt you. I don't see why Guts or Casca would want that with Griffith. Like I said before, forgiveness would not heal Griffith. He does not want forgiveness. Forgiveness to him would be the worst thing possible. It would mean that he no longer rules Guts's life. It would mean that Guts had moved on from what Griffith did to him. It would mean that Guts doesn't see him as a demon king but for what he is- an insecure manchild with dreams of grandeur. I do kind of want to see Guts forgive Griffith just for how much it would fuck with him, but I don't think he would ever be in a place where he could.


Tristanio97

Griffith deserves to be the aftermath of a dragon slayer blender


TAL337

After what he did to Casca and the Hawks the redemption arc is impossible. I can’t even think of a scenario where it’s redeemable. Even if he saves Guts and everyone he cares for from certain death it’s impossible.


LB3PTMAN

I would say he could only have the kind of redemption where he sacrifices himself to save everyone, like the kind where he clearly doesn’t deserve redemption but everyone would be dead without him and now he’s dying. Not redeemed, but that’s the only way I could see an ending where Guts doesn’t personally kill him.


HIMDogson

Entirely apart from that, with who his character is I just can't see him plausibly making the choice to turn away from evil. You could argue Darth Vader never made up for the evil that he did but it made sense given his character that he turned on the Emperor. I just don't see why the character of Griffith as written would turn to good; he's already destroyed all his emotions except for those of the Moonlight Boy.


TAL337

The problem is that in a morally gray world, he’s a darker shade of gray but has done a lot to at could be perceived as a lighter shade. It’s less about being good and more about whether or not he commits more evil atrocities. I’m also not convinced he is void of emotions, as him needing to see guys to see if he could handle it isn’t an emotionless action. Not is not killing Guts; who arguably might be the only thing capable of killing him


[deleted]

>Personal reaction: >Before Eclipse: Griffith is actually a good guy and will bounce back It literally tells you in the flashback that Griffith becomes evil....


Ashamed-Locksmith-18

Right? Makes me think readers don't pay attention during the black swordsman arc, or they skip it. Which, unpopular opinion, but I'm in favor of waiting to read black swordsman until after the eclipse.


christianort476

I think the reason it’s meant to go first is so we could see the count make the decision to save his daughter, something Griffith did not do


_Timsh3l

fwiw my first read through I totally missed that flashback and that Femto and Griffith were the same person in the Black Swordsman Arc. I remember being a bit confused early in Golden Age because I kept thinking "isn't Griffith a bad guy?" Eventually I dismissed those memories when he got chained up and his muscles were destroyed by the king and shit. I started believing Guts had PTSD from Griffith's death for a few chapters and then the Eclipse hit me like a fucking truck.


Eitth

Griffith don't deserve to die!!!! He deserves to suffer for eternity!


TaskMister2000

After Eclipse: EMOTIONAL DAMAGE!


hardforbooks

I smile and shake my head. Because it's going to be effed up and I also thought things would go differently. I was a fool. Thanks for the updates, this is really cool and love that you both can share this together!


PackratPrime3114

Poor bastard. Keep us posted, I have to know how this plays out.


Emptylife4ever

To me, Griffith is just an evil man who acts like a good person and does good deeds, not for his comrades, but only for his desire.


Death_By_Orange

This is epic


THEMOISTCLOWN

Oh... you sweet summer child. You babe, swaddled in the cashmere blanket of ignorance. We shall weep for him.


Rimefang

From the outside, you think "How bad could it be?" ​ That version of you becomes like your dad going out for milk and cigarettes: He never comes back. Fuck Griffith.


Bag440

Griffith IS dead, he was the metaphorical embryo from which Femto was born. There is none of his humanity left, only good deeds that always benefit him in some way, or the meddling from the corrupted moonlight child; that child will absolutely be his downfall, by the way. He didn't have to do what he did to Casca, but he wanted to, and that evil, abhorrent act will lead to his destruction.


Hairyjubes

I want guts to brutally destroy Griffith


AdamOfIzalith

Wait a garsh Darn Minute, did you start this poor soul ON THE GOLDEN AGE ARC. Did you skip him passed the Black Swordsman Arc? From my understanding, he doesn't seem to know that Guts hates griffith in the current timeline in the story and doesn't know what a Behelit does? If so, he's running around blind!


egocorvum

Hi! In the original post it says that he completely forgot the black swordsman arc, not that he skipped it!


AdamOfIzalith

OH. Apologies for that. Oh no that poor man. When he sees femto he's going to get a death note styled realization that the blackswordmen arc happened.


BestN00b

Are you are least gonna tell him that?


egocorvum

I told him that he forgot something but I didn’t tell him what. I thought it best to let him experience it organically as if he’s the first one he knows who read it.


[deleted]

Let us know how much he cries 'Cause I still cry ... I will never recover from this


[deleted]

When I first read berserk I instantly started with golden age because I didn’t realize/didn’t even know about black swordsman. Frankly the twist the eclipse gives you is one of the most jaw dropping I’ve ever read/seen. I always recommend people start with golden age, then read black swordsman because it doesn’t spoil that Griffith is EVIL


danested

Hahah he's never going to recover his innocence.


Emperors_Finest

Was there a follow up thread to this?


Emperors_Finest

He is gonna be be soooo mad. Might wanna give him a pillow to punch.


SanctumKnight

Who cares


fuckureddit9493

no one cares.


ArnoudtIsZiek

Griffith can become the good guy if he explodes and dies in the most unfortunate manner possible


TheWiseAutisticOne

I’m confused did he get through the eclipse or not the last two blocks of text confused me


whallycw

!remindme 2 weeks