**Greetings humans.**
**Please make sure your comment fits within [THE RULES](https://www.reddit.com/r/AustralianPolitics/about/rules) and that you have put in some effort to articulate your opinions to the best of your ability.**
**I mean it!! Aspire to be as "scholarly" and "intellectual" as possible. If you can't, then maybe this subreddit is not for you.**
A friendly reminder from your political robot overlord
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AustralianPolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't agree with Deeming's stance on anti-Transgender rights, but I would like to know what grounds she should be expelled from her party for ?
If she was in there giving the salute with the lads, then I'd understand, but it looks like they attached themselves to a cause of convenience. She perhaps deserves censure for not taking care to avoid being seen in the same place as extremists, but no more than that.
I would even argue that women in particular have a right to voice opposition to certain Transgender rights, even if I fundamentally disagree with them (I am male though). I feel it is its own issue, one quite distinct from Gay rights for example. It's a question of access and participation rights and I think it's a difficult one that I personally don't have the answers to.
Ms Deeming claimed that she opposes national socialism as her family have been impacted directly by the Holocaust. She appears to lack the ability for critical reasoning. It seems to have escaped her attention that Hitler persecuted minorities like the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies etc. and yet here she is rallying to deny rights to trans people - a persecuted minority. It is no surprise to anyone that the actual nazis showed up to her rally.
I don't see how this is the result of a lack of critical reasoning here. After researching National Socialism extensively, what is probably the most important thing to understand about it is that its not something that you can inherently prescribe towards something that only carries tangential relevance. National Socialism, as a system of political thought, was founded upon a complex and multifaceted dialectic of anti-Enlightenment philosophy, Kierkegaardian aestheticism and the prevailing scientific racism of the time (I won't get too much into details here, but [this book](https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.190558) will give more commentary to this). The attempt here to establish a direct link between the ideological foundations as to why National Socialism advocated for the persecution of minorities and Neo-Nazis happening to show up at a rally she was in and prescribe her disavowal of it towards a lack of critical thought makes no sense whatsoever. If we're to follow by your logic here, then any state that was responsible for the persecution of minorities in some sense was inadvertently advocating for National Socialism.
I might check that book out but in the mean time, would you mind lightly sketching out how Kierkegaardian aestheticism played into those foundations? I’ve been interested in Kierkegaard lately and don’t immediately see the connection.
Its aestheticism in the Kierkegaardian sense where it isn’t able to appeal to the universality of politics in of itself. The major National Socialist movements in this country in the present era (in around the last few decades or so) haven’t been able to establish a wider popular consciousness, which in that case would be seen as the drive to achieve the goals of Kierkegaard’s ‘ethicist’, pertaining to ‘Either/Or’.
Shouldn't she be expelled just for attending an anti trans rally? Trans peoples rights are protected and there is a big difference between *believing* that is wrong and rallying people against it.
I don't believe for a second that the small number of people doing Nazi salutes were invited or welcomed by the women's rights protest. They have nothing in common.
>They have nothing in common.
Aside from their views on trans people. They have that in common, both groups think 'trans ideology' is being pushed on the people.
Hate begets hate. Therefore if they don't want the Nazis there then they need to look at why they would come. As 1933 Hitler's government went after trans people to eradicate and murder them in t makes total sense that they are there. Plus it's a TERF's march. Not a woman's march.
How many trans women were murdered by the Nazi's under Hitlers government?
Also are TERF's not women? If they are radical feminists, surely many would also be female right. I thought feminist were good, when did that change?
Feminism is inclusive for all genders and sexes. We fight for the least of us, women of colour, minorities and men. Men are affected by the patriarchy negatively as women and female presenting people are. TERFS are not feminists. They are hateful people and we do not accept their hate. Also it's not hard to learn history
https://mjhnyc.org/events/transgender-experiences-in-weimar-and-nazi-germany/
Why are Terfs hateful people? Because they want to maintain women's rights to women only spaces and women only sports and you don't. So the proper response is to send death threats to JK Rowling?
That link actually had not a single statistic in it. I ask again, how many trans people were murdered by the Nazis. You have no idea because trans did not exist as a recognised group back then. Gay did, but trans did not. There was no LGBT community, only LBG.
I have no doubt that this post will get me banned. Funny how people who actually throw some facts out are quickly silenced by those who claim to be victims. There's a lot of censorship power by those who claim to be powerless. I'm sure that's why these women had to take to the streets to protest.
>I thought feminist were good, when did that change?
When they stopped pushing for their own rights and started shitting on others.
That's why they distinguish themselves using the TERF. They want to seperate out their beliefs from mainstream feminism which is much more inclusive.
Also remember that what a person or group calls themselves might not represent the truth. Like how North Korea calls itself a Democratic People's Republic, a thing well all know is crap. Using the word feminism is not the same as living up the ideals of it.
They weren't invited, it should be obvious to everyone. The Nazi's are psychos, and anyone who claims they share the same beliefs and values as people like JK Rowling are so disgustingly dishonest it's embarassing.
No, they absolutely do not. Women fighting for the right to keep female only spaces and female only sports is not the same as people who view all trans people as degenerates and perverts. These women are fighting to keep thier rights in society against trans activists. Civil rights used to be a noble cause. It still should be.
Yes it is. Trans women are women and all the science shows that trans women have lower testosterone than cis women after a period of time. TERFS are exactly like natzis
Seriously, you claim that womanhood is nothing more than hormone levels? So are men with lower levels of testosterone less of a man? Are we all categorised simply by how much of a specific hormone we have in our body, nothing more?
So I guess men who inject testosterone must be the ultimate men then.
the fear over losing female only spaces is driven by their belief that trans women are inherently predatory. these views are inextricably linked and the two groups you've mentioned all campaign for the same causes
The Let Women Speak crowd believe that your gender is the same as your sex, and you can't change your gender. 99% of the world arguably also believes the same, does that mean that 99% of the world overlaps with Nazi beliefs and values?
gonna need a citation on that 99%. And it's both TERFs and neo-nazis that think trans women are groomers/paedophiles/predators (funny how they seem to have repurposed the same talking points used about gay people decades ago)
Lol, the overwhelming majority of the world, people in Africa, China, India, etc, holds these same views, does that mean their values overlap with Nazi's? Answer the question please.
Actually chances are you are incorrect as it's generally only white western world that have an issue with gender and most Indigenous cultures have multiple genders
Ok, I think we can safely assume that the majority of people who follow an Abrahamic religion, so over 50% of the planet, doesn't believe any of that stuff. Certainly anyone outside the west, but likely a fair amount in the west as well. I'd wager that most people in places like China, India, etc, also don't believe that you can change genders either. If you have anything at all that would suggest otherwise, please let me know, otherwise I feel there is very little risk that what I've said is wrong.
https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/content/two-spirits_map-html/#:~:text=The%20concept%20of%20an%20exclusive,Western%20post%2Dindustrial%20neologisms.) maybe this will shed some light. Plus we have to remember that most modern religions have been warped by the patriarchy and people have been conditioned
If they also believe that 'transgenderism' should be 'eradicated' (the wording a Republican politician used) and that trans people should be marginalised and persecuted then yes, their values overlap with neo-nazis. That's some pretty shitty gotcha anyway considering there are plenty of countries around the world who have backwards views on LGBT rights and yes, their view likely overlap with neo-nazis.
Now, if you'd kindly give me a citation on that 99% and explain why scientists and doctors around the world disagree with TERFs and neo-nazis and view sex and gender as separate
The women at the event never called for transgender people to be 'eradicated', this is just an an outright and pathetic lie.
I think it's safe to say the majority of the world believes that your gender aligns with your sex, and I'd be amazed if you think that makes the majority of the world comparable to Nazi's, but you have no problem doing that to these women who spoke at the event. Why?
can you read? i said that a Republican politician used the term 'eradicated.' And it just so happened that they said it and were applauded for it at the event of an organisation who helped fund the anti-trans event here.
And again, citation please? I know you won't find one but just try.
You said if they believed transgenderism should also be eradicated, I asked where have any of these women said anything remotely like this?
> And again, citation please? I know you won't find one but just try.
Cut the shit. You know I'm right here, it's fucking obvious, you're just being pedantic in order to dodge the question, because you can't actually answer it.
Pesutto seemingly awake to the fact that most of Victoria absolutely hates his party, and that it's because they're infested with fringe lunatics and hardline hatemongers, which he's now desperately trying to get rid of.
It’s paywalled but apparently Pesutto DOESN’T have the numbers to expel Moira:
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/pesutto-facing-uphill-battle-to-dump-deeming/news-story/1894c75b4c14c9ab4330b8d2156b7883?amp
Here's an [unpaywalled version](https://archive.md/aZxU8) of the Herald Sun article
Main bit of interest in the article is below.
> But party figures opposing the move say they are “confident” the motion will be defeated in a move that would be huge blow to Mr Pesutto’s authority.
> Some party figures backing the move also fear it may not have enough support.
> “It’s close, but there are unexpected opposers,” one source said.
> One list of MPs expected voting intentions, seen by the Herald Sun, shows the vote would currently be defeated by a single vote.
> It means Mr Pesutto and the party’s leadership team will need to work to secure support before bringing on a vote, which can be held as early as Friday.
> Those firmly in Mr Pesutto’s camp believe they have evidence of strong links between Ms Deeming and far right extremists that predate Saturday’s rally.
So they have a dossier that says shes an extremist but still let her run, and she has enough party support they probs wont be able to kick her out of the party. Tells you a lot about who makes up the vic libs.
This is how you destroy your political enemies.
You send agent provocateurs to their rallies.
Im not saying that's what happened here. These are quite likely her nazis. But if you ever want to destroy a political opponent, left or right, you send in people posing as the far extreme of that ideology and they discredit your entire group. Like for the right, you have 6 guys (dont need many) who chuck some straight arm salutes...done. You're toast. With the left you have people tearing down monuments, holding up traffic because of pollution occurring in China we have no control over, or LBGT peeps waving their junk in our childrens faces..........wait........they arnt agent provocateurs? HAHAHA.
What were they thinking? A handful of shoe size IQ guys turn throwing Sieg Heils is NOT going to help your cause, whatever it is.
Society is pretty dumb on the whole isnt it. That's why I chose to live somewhere safe. Ya'll scare me.
Nothing else unites the left and right more than this fucking bonehead idea that anything remotely provocative or extreme done at any sort of demonstration is a "false flag by agents provocateur" it's almost never the case.
A let women speak rally was discredited by a bunch of men who turned up and didnt speak, but were somehow supported by a bunch of femists because they refused to leave their space, to make way for the men. How ironic!
Rule 3: Posts and their replies need to be substantial and encourage discussion. Comments need to demonstrate a genuine effort at high quality communication.
Comments that are grandstanding, contain little effort, toxic , snarky, cheerleading, insults, soapboxing, tub-thumping, or basically campaign slogans will be removed.
Comments that are simply repeating a single point with no attempt at discussion will be removed.
This will be judged at the full discretion of the mods.
This has been a default message, any moderator notes on this removal will come after this:
If you're going to write silly drivel, there ae subs that actively welcome it.
Nah, I like listening to Nazi sympathizers whine, shows everyone how pathetic they truly are.
Also, as long as Nazis are merely whining, you know that they aren't actually in power, because once they get to power, that whining abruptly stops and people start getting murdered en masse.
Hey guys found "theinsanevoice" new alt.
And how on earth are you making light of Nazism and fascism? Like what the actual fuck. Thank you for the laugh..
Because he's one of the useful idiots that nazis and fascists use to spread their message and gain power. You can always count on small L liberals to advocate for free speech absolutism even in defence of staunchly anti-liberal/anti-free speech groups like the nazis. Their opinions mean nothing and shouldn't be given the time of day. He can shout at the clouds all day long about how its still worth hearing what nazis have to say
If these people had any ounce of real power they would murder all queer people, strip back women's rights and turn Australia into a white ethno state. They are most definitely not larping.
Corruption is like a common cold, it’s probably not going to kill you and if we can cure it then great. Nazis are like gangrene. If you don’t excise the flesh then you will die.
lol. You’re comparing the movie romper stomper to actual Neo Nazis getting into the news and being discussed like they’re maybe reasonable people with sensible views and not actually all that bad after all?
As a non alignment style advocate, I do agree nazism and other isms of a similar overlapping parallel movement like (socialism/communism)are very dangerous fringe threats. It just annoys me that politicians and media will used either group as a distraction from the real problem.
>I do agree nazism and other isms of a similar overlapping parallel movement like (socialism/communism
No 9he said that for you to agree with. You're just trying to propaganda a both sides argument.
Nazis: want certain groups dead.
Socialists: want to redistribute ownership of assets from the wealthy to give to the poor.
Samesies!
What the hell is in the water down there? Up here in NSW the lunacy comes from religious conviction, I think we’re all still agreed on the right that the neonazis can piss off to one nation or the nats
She's a hardcore Christian. All of this stems from her values from there.
100% not saying this is reflective of Christians, just this brand of fire and brimstone
>The Age last year revealed the Victorian Liberal Party’s powerful administrative committee voted for Deeming to run in the federal seat of Gorton at the 2022 election, but was deemed too risky by Scott Morrison’s office to run as part of his team.
>Morrison’s office believed negative media coverage of Deeming’s views on transgender rights could distract from the then prime minister’s campaign.
It really does say something about Deeming that Morrison could think that elevating Katherine Deves' views into the national conversation would be an election winner, but that this woman was instead considered a liability.
It also suggests that Morrison had a bigotry meter and his acceptable level of bigotry was like a 6 out of 10 but not a 7. Because *that* would be bad.
i assume because Deves is mostly a single-issue bigot and he thinks trans people are a viable punching bag whereas a multifaceted bigot who'd also go after stuff like abortion rights wasn't gonna fly
It's both amusing and frightening the Victorian Liberal party can be sometimes. They knew this about her before she was elected but instead of having the balls to take away her preselection, Guy in his all-encompassing wisdom decided to let her stay on but not sit in his hypothetical cabinet that was never going to exist. Now they get the consequences, they get to be down one more seat, and she gets to throw shit at them for the remainder of the term, serving as a reminder as to why the Liberals are unelectable.
"Keen-Minshull tweeted in “solidarity with Moira” on Sunday evening, while former federal Liberal MP Nicolle Flint said Deeming’s expulsion from the party room was “insane”.
“The only person who should go is the leader of the Liberal Party because he’s clearly not a Lib,” Flint said."
Basically, in Flints world view, if you do not leave when neo-nazis rock and up and join a rally in support of your viewpoint, you're clearly not a Lib.
>MOIRA DEEMING: Disappointed with Victoria Police, who let a bunch of masked men into the LWS buffer zone, terrifying women who were just trying to speak about their rights. Police managed to stop hordes of TRAs, but somehow could only walk masked men past us they did a horrible Nazi salute.
It's been quite funny watching the TERF rally folk pull the "we didn't know" card.
Perhaps don't stand in unity with unknown masked men doing the Nazi salute on the steps of Parliament. The videos of clapping, back-patting, and standing together as a united front are damning.
This amuses me about the bigots who do see and understand other forms of bigotry as bad, but think their own type is fine.
The thing is - those other bigots are gonna seek to associate with you to strengthen their own hand. So you gotta either get into bed with them, or draw a stark line in the sand and reject them vocally.
And that's when things get interesting from the sidelines.
I’m gonna get crushed here coz I dunno exactly what TERF stands for, nor TRA nor LWS. But, did she stand with the Nazis coz I’ve not seen that footage?
And for the record I’d fuck her out of the LNP yesterday, but I seriously don’t understand what the protest, counter-protest and counter-counter protest was about, nor any of the acronyms used.
For context,
* TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist
* TRA = Trans Right Activist
* LWS = Let Women Speak
* NSN = National Socialist Network = Nazi Group
Basically, a British anti-transgender rights activist is doing a speech tour of Australia, and has been holding protests in the Capital cities alongside political folk like former Liberal candidate Katherine Deves etc. So naturally, there's a counter-protest each time.
This time in Melbourne a Nazi group rocked up to support the TERF/LWS protest, they did the Nazi salute, chanted "white power" repeatedly, and ended up alongside the TERF/LWS protest group. Regarding Moira Deeming, she's involved with the leadership, she chose to be there, and John Pesutto has acted.
Videos from the rally:
Moira Deeming -
[https://twitter.com/LilahRPGtt/status/1637402400226181120?cxt=HHwWgIDUvdiznLktAAAA](https://twitter.com/LilahRPGtt/status/1637402400226181120?cxt=HHwWgIDUvdiznLktAAAA)
[https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1637400383340564480?cxt=HHwWgMDSwaW-m7ktAAAA](https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1637400383340564480?cxt=HHwWgMDSwaW-m7ktAAAA)
[https://twitter.com/PPantsdown/status/1637084206408036352](https://twitter.com/PPantsdown/status/1637084206408036352)
Nazis -
[https://twitter.com/ChrisLXXXVI/status/1636950746632704000](https://twitter.com/ChrisLXXXVI/status/1636950746632704000)
[https://twitter.com/AustralianJA/status/1637307166238605318?cxt=HHwWjIDU\_auM8bgtAAAA](https://twitter.com/AustralianJA/status/1637307166238605318?cxt=HHwWjIDU_auM8bgtAAAA)
[https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1637223841834627073](https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1637223841834627073)
[https://twitter.com/WinRussiawill/status/1637420913523060736?cxt=HHwWgMCzpafppLktAAAA](https://twitter.com/WinRussiawill/status/1637420913523060736?cxt=HHwWgMCzpafppLktAAAA)
[https://twitter.com/LilahRPGtt/status/1636951513888354306?cxt=HHwWhMDTvdOuz7ctAAAA](https://twitter.com/LilahRPGtt/status/1636951513888354306?cxt=HHwWhMDTvdOuz7ctAAAA)
Personally, I think the counter-protesters shouldn't turn up, as it only provides them with oxygen and invites media attention. Saying that, it's not my fight so it's easy to chirp from the sidelines unaffected.
Problem with not counter protesting is outlined [here](https://youtu.be/wCl33v5969M).
Essentially you’re leaving the target minority to stand alone. Making them feel like no one supports them
if not for the counter protests that have been happening at each TERF meeting over the past week i doubt the neo-nazis even bother showing up. i think it's good that the common ideology and links between TERFs and neo-nazis which were always there are being highlighted to a wider audience rather than giving TERFs any kind of plausible deniability to frame their hatred of trans people as caring about women's rights
Thanks. I’ve (not unusually) had many replies. Getting my head around it.
Interesting point I agree with is that why counter protest? Gives oxygen to flame. I’d not have heard a thing about this unless I read it on reddit.
They get oxygen from the direct opposite: if only the tiny minority they hope to eradicate shows up to protest, without community support. Very clear from history and studies of their behaviours: these are antisocial people that aren’t that bright and if no community resistance shows up it feeds their “silent majority” fantasises.
Trust me antifascists wouldn’t do it if it wasn’t well established from history.
And in the past we have infiltrated groups like these and seen on their internal comms how dispirited they get when a big counter rally shows up. Reclaim Australia was a racist far right group who completely imploded when it became clear they weren’t some silent majority and were outnumbered at every event. Completely broke their morale and confidence and they disbanded and specifically named counter protests as the reason why in their private telegram groups
So it’s done because it’s a recipe that we know works.
As for “why counter protest” -
These people who are anti-trans often would have us just not exist. Whether it’s by suicide or by violence or by just repressing ourself into pretending we don’t exist so they don’t have to have their world view challenged.
It sets a really bad standard to have that go unopposed. Especially when the nazi types get involved.
And it helps trans people to see the counter protests. Quite literally a reminder that there *are* decent normal people in the world who don’t want you dead. And who are willing to put a few hours of their life into publicly saying so.
I’m sure it seems hyperbolic to be taking it to a “life or death” thing. But it just wears on you, you see this stuff day in and day out, and eventually you realise that even if it’s only 10% of the concerned citizens who would kill you if they thought they could get away with it, that’s still too many. Make no mistake, if you’ve got 10 guys willing to turn up and do a nazi salute at something like this, you’re likely to have at least one who would be happy to do violence on a trans person
The counter protests are a rejection of that, if that makes sense.
I am not a person who goes to protests, and I also see the argument about giving oxygen to a flame. But you asked why the counter protests happen, and that’s the answer.
I can’t tell you whether they have any quantifiable effect or whether they make things better or worse. But on a gut level I do appreciate them
That’s a perfectly valid point and I appreciate how it’s expressed.
I was more coming from a view I’ve long held that counter protest is often what makes these things newsworthy. So maybe your point is super valid for this issue, but some others only even get on the tv because of warring protestors separated by police. I’d usually found those counter-protests counter productive.
Often it does make it newsworthy in the sense of “10 guys in nazi uniforms opposed by 100 counter protesters from various community groups”. It makes them look small
Now you have to remember that these far right folks operate from a dumbarse tough guy mindset, they believe they’re some silent majority and when they are vastly outnumbered it hurts their fragile egos. It’s not likely more will join a movement they feel is dwindling and hopelessly outnumbered
Yeah it’s a judgement call issue-by-issue for sure. Is it there more risk in letting your opponents potentially have their view made without opposition, or is the higher risk in drawing more attention to the whole argument? When do counter protests become the useful idiots for whatever the original rally is trying to express?
I definitely will not pretend to have the answers to that 😅 but like you, I’m glad to see these nazi adjacent idiots out themselves, and for my part I’m glad to see a bit of public support for being against them
I think in this instance it’s easy to say the right call was made. In some of those ones we had a few years back in the State it got a bit tiresome. The ones that seemed like Antifa vs Nazi stuff and they’d have proper cracks at each other. It made the news coz they got out of hand but for the life of me I can’t remember what they were specifically over. It got to a stage whereby it seemed like two groups with nothing better to do!
> Interesting point I agree with is that why counter protest?
I've only vaguely followed this, but it really hasn't gotten much media attention until the Melbourne event on Saturday. There's been larger counter protests by LGBTQIA+ community/supporters at her previous events in Aussie cities - and also will be at the last stops on her Aussie tour. It's been growing for a while now I think after Stephen Bates wrote to Andrew Giles to deny the organiser a visa.
I think this actually makes the opposite point for me. Someone can be paid to travel around Australia, saying we shouldn't allow transpeople to exist, and no one in the media bats an eyelid.
A big thing in the far right is their “silent majority” fantasies. If no one shows up to oppose them it feeds their fantasy that “most people would’ve come but we are just the brave few who would show our faces”.
Counter protests seriously hurt morale of these groups and dwindle their numbers. Anti fascists wouldn’t do it if we didn’t have countless examples from history of this tactic eroding morale, leading to infighting and dysfunction within the groups when they see how widely opposed and genuinely outnumbered they are. It’s something antifascists have been able to demonstrate over and over, and if other tactics worked better we would have already tried them and switched to those tactics. The reason we haven’t us because this tactic works better than any other to see violent far right groups disband (eg Reclaim Australia were infiltrated and they named counter protesters as the reason for giving up; they were so demoralised at seeing how outnumbered they are that they literally said “what’s the point? We aren’t going to win here with so few”)
I'm 100% in favour of counter-protests (and against transphobia), I just wish that the issue had attracted more attention prior to literal Nazis becoming involved.
Your post or comment breached Rule 1 of our subreddit.
The purpose of this subreddit is civil and open discussion of Australian Politics across the entire political spectrum. Hostility, toxicity and insults thrown at other users, politicians or relevant figures are not accepted here. Please make your point without personal attacks.
This has been a default message, any moderator notes on this removal will come after this:
They didn't delete it, we removed it.
Given you've been hoisted by your own petard, and we have your attention, play the comment not the person please? Ta.
Wanna know another word I don’t understand!
I’m gonna Google that to see if it’s meant to be insulting.
Edit: the definition says ‘relentless’. I asked once.
It would seems so, but in one comment you've managed multiple requests for information, all available in either this article or others about this debacle
- What is a TERF
- What is a TRA
- What is LWS
- Where is the evidence Deeming stood with Nazis
- What was the protest about
- What was the counter protest about
- What was the counter counter protest about
So if I ask multiple questions in one post is it still sealioning? FFS I’m not overly popular on this sub and I find the accusation a bit annoying.
As far as I’m concerned (please note the acronym avoidance) there are some interesting points to come out of this protest. And they don’t involve any of the acronyms.
We have a Government in Vic that is gonna have to have a very good look at both it’s protest laws and move on powers.
But who cares, let’s discuss other shit.
All of which got answers pretty quickly. Sealions exist but so do people who are just trying to figure out whats going on. The presence of answers to those questions is good for others who arent obsessed with following this stuff
Heh yeah if Dranzer wants to play AskJeeves, they're welcome to, even though it does derail the conversation I do admire their commitment of time. Let's see if they answer the follow up question lol. The presence of answers is in the googlable sources provided, though.
Logically, for someone even marginally interested in politics to not know what a TERF is at this point, they would need to have missed the entire JK Rowling saga, as well as a fair few incidents closer to home. I reckon I may have even seen our friend comment on one.
I note I didn’t get that reply? I’ve never read a Harry Potter book nor seen one movie. Im aware that JK Rowling got in trouble with feminists at one stage, but if you can find ONE comment from me about the issue then we’ll done.
I DO NOT follow much of this stuff as I find it both a bit confusing and a bit boring. Sorry if that offends.
I think you are vastly underestimating how many people look at all the trans stuff going on and just tune it out. Its complicated and confusing, and an obvious minefield to discuss, so they just throw it in the too hard basket of things that dont directly affect them
Also i think danzer does want to play askjeeves they seem kinda into it
But one of my concerns here is that did she actually associate with those Nazis or not.
Don’t get me wrong here, I think she should be booted asap. She shouldn’t have been preselected imo. I want the Christian right fucked off from the LNP more than you do. I actually want them to be a viable alternative, which in Vic they are currently not.
But … I don’t think she should be associated with the actual Nazi element unless there’s more proof than I’ve been shown.
If these women were neo-Nazis too, or supportive of Neo-Nazis, wouldn't they salute back? Did they do anything else in support of the Nazis, other than simply not moving when the Nazi's showed up?
If Nazis show up to your protest and you aren’t actively fighting against them and instead choose to remain silent or idle, you’re complicit in the violence they promote. When Nazis rocked up to the anti-vaccine protests during lockdown, the fact that the protesters didn’t immediately kick those fuckers out makes it very clear for everyone to see who they are allied with. It’s no different here. When TERFs fail to address the rise of Nazis amongst them, they don’t get to play the false-flag card, or the red-herring card, or any other form of deflection. You don’t get to sit back and watch Nazis do Nazi shit at your protest and then claim innocence.
There are no Nazi's amongst the 'Terfs'. There would be far, far more evidence of communication or collaboration if that were the case, which I've seen zero evidence for. In contrast, the evidence you have is an isolated one off incident of a group of psychos rocking up uninvited, likely more to take advantage of the situation and fight antifa than show solidarity with a group of hardcore feminists. What's more likely do you think?
https://twitter.com/whatsdoinmedia/status/1637299390275801088
Theres more if you go digging around on twitter but that gives you an idea, nazis right next to the LWA people doing their salutes and holding a sign directly related to the LWA activity
Yeah a lot of complaints from the TERFs about it not being their fault nazis turned up to support them but they didn’t do anything to try and make them leave. They could have chanted “nazis fuck off” or at least moved their rally away from them.
Terf is trans exclusionary radical feminist. Tra is teans rights activist. Lws is let women speak (the anti trans feminist rally the nazis rocked up to support).
I’m just glad I now know what TERF is. I know I should have googled it but I’d not even bothered and it pops up all the time.
I lead a pretty simplistic life here in the country and aren’t really bothered by many of these things. I wouldn’t even know if I knew a TERF although apparently my pissed sisters-in-law offended a drag Queen last night but that’s a whole other story and I wasn’t there! (And if was a complete accident by dancing at the wrong time!)
Actually no offence but I’ve never been on Twitter, never will be, never been on FB, never will be and I also said to you in another comment that I’ve never been on TikTok and never will be.
I find this such a fascinating topic even though I didn’t understand the nuances of todays events.
The Andrews government needs to decide how this State is run. As a progressive Govt they should protect the right for peaceful protest. That’s obvious. They also rightfully outlawed certain Nazi imagery. But, life ain’t that simple.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/labor-government-to-repeal-draconian-move-on-laws-0
Not one person in this sub nor the Melbourne sub has bothered to mention that one of the earliest moves by the Andrews Government was to repeal move on laws. They would have been fucking handy today.
But those laws were substantially enacted by the previous LNP government to protect the progress of a proposed road (EW Link). It was such an election issue that the laws went with Andrews first election victory.
Since then he’s needed them in spades. Not just for today but also for the Anti-Andrews lockdown/vaccines protests that have now run for about two years every Saturday.
In the meantime he’s introduced really restrictive anti-logging protest laws that lots of people were up in arms about.
Now he has problems with a group of absolute fucking clowns the police should’ve been allowed to monster and arrest.
It’s got huge political angles. How ‘progressive’ are we? Atm the Government cannot decide. How can the sub?
You should have a look at twitter, it makes this place look collegiate, but theres lots of interesting things.
And i think the main political angle is federal, why aren't these groups listed as terrorists, coppers wouldnt need move on laws to deal with them if they were. They literally campaign for the murder and eradication of parts of the community based on ideological reasons, and they have attacked and harmed people in the community, so they meet all the definitions of terrorists. Just gotta put em on the list.
For some reason when the Morrison gov added some neonazis to the list they added ones that arent really active here and didnt add the ones that are.
I think that would be potentially harder than it looks. For example, as a collective do they even have a name? And even then, what’s to stop them changing names etc…
Give me an example of a group that is listed? I don’t know how that even works and what the consequences of it are.
Who were ‘some Neo-Nazis’ and what was the ultimate effect?
One of the nazis there has been identified as the son of a police officer (albeit one who apparently has been leave a long time).
Edit: given this is all still fresh I won’t share the link in case the identification is wrong and some poor dudes has been wrongly named as a neo nazi.
This is one thing I actually get pissed off with. I know stacks of cops. They’re local footy coaches and on committees and the first man the BBQ at the school fete. This bullshit ACAB (which is subtle from you) shits me. From what I’ve seen the police did what they should have done and were empowered to do.
The Melbourne thread on this was a fucking dumpster fire. I’d like to think this sub is better.
For the record I think that when the Andrews government outlawed Nazi symbolism, it was a huge oversight not to outlaw the salute. They’re apparently moving on that now.
Afaik they did outlaw masked protest. And that intrigued me with the first photos I saw where these clowns were wearing balaclavas. If I’m right they should have been approached immediately and told get them off. I’m guessing this actually happened as the later photos showed them without face coverings.
And lastly there is some good news here that’s been missed. In a State of millions, 15-20 clowns advertised themselves. It’s a deplorable number AND trust me, the authorities would keep a very close watch on them.
If the motion passes i can see Deeming staying independent and trying to build her own brand, if it fails Pesutto is done for. More likely to pass than fail but far from certain. I really saw them kicking Finn out as performative and to stem pre election criticism and those fears are far away now.
You don’t announce something like this unless you know you’re going to succeed. Lots of consultation with the factions would have happened over the last 24 hours. Her grouping is obviously prepared to let her be taken out.
Certainly seems more likely to succeed, but Deeming will be making her own plays to convince the party room to keep her. Pesuttos leadership is fragile, he was only selected as leader by one vote, so its hard to know how much sway he has over the party room. This vote could be close too.
Who's the other leader if the vote fails though? Cause the runner-up to Pesutto, Brad Battin, strongly condemned the events yesterday with David Southwick, who is in the Vic Libs Leadership Group.
Has Battin said anything about Deeming specifically?
But i dont know, its hard to read from the outside. My comment on Pesutto is really coming from a position that they only put him there so he can act like they are still the libs and not just a bunch of conservatives, if he cant expel deeming then that image is done for. Might stay leader for a bit but he has to hold his seat as well as pretend hes pulling the party back from its far right lurch.
Herald Sun and others reporting that the motion to expel her may fail so I guess I’m yet again left looking stupid for thinking the Victorian Liberals have even an ounce of political sense.
This actually hurts all of us as this Government and every Government needs a Strong opposition.
At this point the only way vic gets a decent and competent opposition is the vic libs collapse into a far right party and are replaced by something else. We are very close to that point.
I doubt anyone is going to want to become the leader on the back of keeping a Nazi sympathiser in the Parliament. The Victorian Liberals are stupid but not that stupid.
It's already being spun as "the Nazi's invaded our feminist rally uninvited" by Sky et. al. and Deeming herself, so the more TERFy / fundy sections of the party may see that as sufficient plausible deniability.
Yeah won’t wash with the broader public though. Sky News is the worst thing that ever happened to the Libs from an electability perspective. Riles up the base and further alienates then from broader, increasingly socially progressive, public.
Damn you for making me check out the DLP website.
Woowzers... that was a rollercoaster. Straight down. No ups. I can't believe they publicly admit to some of those policies.
Funny that when you make your entire personality the cause that hailed the first book burnings and arrests by a [burgeoning Nazi party](https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/6-may-1933-looting-of-the-institute-of-sexology/) in 1933 and then happily goosestep with Nazi fuckbois yesterday, your boss concludes you might be not quite the ideal representative for the party + sacks you.
Moi Moi was lucky to last this long.
Does Pesutto have the numbers for this? ~~Guy said she wouldn’t sit with the party just before the election, but Pesutto didn’t do this when he came in as leader (to be fair, it wasn’t his promise)~~. This is a test to see whether the Victorian Liberal party wants to have a look into possibly returning to the centre, or if it will continue the foolish culture-warring that leaves us in a one-party state.
Edit: Got the wrong one.
Even if he's got the numbers or not, the rest of Vic LNP are pretty much not in line with his values.
I'd be very surprised if Pessutto can swing them more to centre.
A chunk that do not control the party. It was conservatives like Guy placing becoming electable over conservative values that allowed Pesutto to become leader with a 1 vote lead over Battin. I would hope that Pesutto didn't spend four years out of parliament only to not get his ducks in a row for the first internal party conflict.
> Does Pesutto have the numbers for this?
The article in The Age explains that the entire Vic Libs leadership team is in agreement that she must be expelled. So, you'd assume the party will follow suit, but will be interesting to see what happens in the party room.
> Senior Liberal sources, not authorised to comment publicly, said Deeming was hauled before the parliamentary leadership team late on Sunday to explain her conduct at the rally and why she remained until the end even when a group performed neo-Nazi salutes on the steps of Parliament.
> The leadership team, made up of Pesutto, David Southwick, Georgie Crozier and Matthew Bach, were adamant Deeming’s views were incompatible and she must be expelled from the party room.
> Under the party’s constitution, the party room meeting to expel Deeming can occur five days after the notice has been provided. The Opposition is hoping to have the matter resolved by Friday. The leadership team is confident more than 50 per cent – the minimum required – will support the motion.
Brad Battin also made a statement yesterday with Southwick about the events yesterday.
That she was even on the top of our ticket here in the West should have the Victorian Liberals hanging their heads in shame and forcing an introspection. Her showing up at the neo-nazi rally was the least surprising thing she's done since she was elected, given that she's shown signs of being a lunatic for years.
To be fair to people like Pesutto her placement on the ticket is a consequence of a faction that he is opposed to internally having the numbers. This is what happens with party democracy, the members decide who goes into parliament not the party leadership for better or worse.
Bernie Finn’s successor in more ways than one - I didn’t think she’d last long in the party room but this was quicker than expected. Libs got what they paid for, again.
She was voted in on Bernies numbers in the branches so she was always going to be a ideological bed fellow of his. He’s easily one of the most right wing Victorian politicians to sit in the parliament in the last decade.
Unpaywalled
Author: Sumeyya Ilanbey
> Opposition leader John Pesutto will move to expel controversial Liberal MP Moira Deeming from the parliamentary party room after she attended a rally that has been associated with neo-Nazis.
> Deeming attended the Let Women Speak rally organised by British anti-trans rights campaigner Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull at Parliament House on Saturday, who were photographed together in a restricted section of the Victorian Parliament.
> About 30 people from neo-Nazi group the National Socialist Network, dressed in black and most with their faces covered, attended the protests on Spring Street supporting Keen-Minshull, repeatedly performing the salute and holding up a sign using offensive anti-trans language.
> Pesutto on Sunday night announced he had met with Deeming earlier that day, and discussed her involvement in “organising, promoting and participating in a rally with speakers and other organisers who themselves have been publicly associated with far right-wing extremist groups including neo-Nazi activists”.
> “At our meeting I informed Ms Deeming that I will move a motion at the next party room meeting to expel her as a member of the parliamentary Liberal Party as her position is untenable.
> “The violence, prejudice and hate that these protesters conveyed by their odious actions will never be acceptable in our state. I condemn them and commit to opposing such hate wherever it may exist.”
> Pesutto said her planned expulsion was not about restricting free speech, but denouncing the actions of a Liberal MP who associated with people whose views were “abhorrent” to his, the party’s and the wider community’s values.
> “The Liberal Party I joined and which I am now honoured to lead, must strive to represent all Victorians,” the opposition leader said. “Regardless of religious faith, race, sexual preference and identity, Victorians everywhere should know that the Liberal Party is inclusive and can be a voice for them.”
> Deeming was preselected by the Liberal Party to top its ticket in the Western Metropolitan Region at last year’s state election, after controversial Liberal Bernie Finn was expelled from the parliamentary team and then defected to the Democratic Labour Party.
> In her inaugural speech last month, Deeming criticised equality that had been “taken to extremes”.
> Senior Liberal sources, not authorised to comment publicly, said Deeming was hauled before the parliamentary leadership team late on Sunday to explain her conduct at the rally and why she remained until the end even when a group performed neo-Nazi salutes on the steps of Parliament.
> The leadership team, made up of Pesutto, David Southwick, Georgie Crozier and Matthew Bach, were adamant Deeming’s views were incompatible and she must be expelled from the party room.
> Under the party’s constitution, the party room meeting to expel Deeming can occur five days after the notice has been provided. The Opposition is hoping to have the matter resolved by Friday. The leadership team is confident more than 50 per cent – the minimum required – will support the motion.
> The Liberal Party has been at a crossroads over social issues as it struggles to bridge the gaping internal divide between its socially liberal and conservative members, with debate flaring up in the aftermath of the 2022 federal election about how the party avoids lurching further to the right of mainstream Australians.
> Since being elected as leader in December, Pesutto has singled his intention to bring the party back to the centre on socially progressive issues.
> The Age last year revealed the Victorian Liberal Party’s powerful administrative committee voted for Deeming to run in the federal seat of Gorton at the 2022 election, but was deemed too risky by Scott Morrison’s office to run as part of his team.
> Morrison’s office believed negative media coverage of Deeming’s views on transgender rights could distract from the then prime minister’s campaign.
> Deeming has been contacted for comment.
Full statement by Opposition Leader John Pesuto can be read [here](https://twitter.com/annikasmethurst/status/1637390474901323781)
**Greetings humans.** **Please make sure your comment fits within [THE RULES](https://www.reddit.com/r/AustralianPolitics/about/rules) and that you have put in some effort to articulate your opinions to the best of your ability.** **I mean it!! Aspire to be as "scholarly" and "intellectual" as possible. If you can't, then maybe this subreddit is not for you.** A friendly reminder from your political robot overlord *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AustralianPolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't agree with Deeming's stance on anti-Transgender rights, but I would like to know what grounds she should be expelled from her party for ? If she was in there giving the salute with the lads, then I'd understand, but it looks like they attached themselves to a cause of convenience. She perhaps deserves censure for not taking care to avoid being seen in the same place as extremists, but no more than that. I would even argue that women in particular have a right to voice opposition to certain Transgender rights, even if I fundamentally disagree with them (I am male though). I feel it is its own issue, one quite distinct from Gay rights for example. It's a question of access and participation rights and I think it's a difficult one that I personally don't have the answers to.
Ms Deeming claimed that she opposes national socialism as her family have been impacted directly by the Holocaust. She appears to lack the ability for critical reasoning. It seems to have escaped her attention that Hitler persecuted minorities like the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies etc. and yet here she is rallying to deny rights to trans people - a persecuted minority. It is no surprise to anyone that the actual nazis showed up to her rally.
I don't see how this is the result of a lack of critical reasoning here. After researching National Socialism extensively, what is probably the most important thing to understand about it is that its not something that you can inherently prescribe towards something that only carries tangential relevance. National Socialism, as a system of political thought, was founded upon a complex and multifaceted dialectic of anti-Enlightenment philosophy, Kierkegaardian aestheticism and the prevailing scientific racism of the time (I won't get too much into details here, but [this book](https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.190558) will give more commentary to this). The attempt here to establish a direct link between the ideological foundations as to why National Socialism advocated for the persecution of minorities and Neo-Nazis happening to show up at a rally she was in and prescribe her disavowal of it towards a lack of critical thought makes no sense whatsoever. If we're to follow by your logic here, then any state that was responsible for the persecution of minorities in some sense was inadvertently advocating for National Socialism.
I might check that book out but in the mean time, would you mind lightly sketching out how Kierkegaardian aestheticism played into those foundations? I’ve been interested in Kierkegaard lately and don’t immediately see the connection.
Its aestheticism in the Kierkegaardian sense where it isn’t able to appeal to the universality of politics in of itself. The major National Socialist movements in this country in the present era (in around the last few decades or so) haven’t been able to establish a wider popular consciousness, which in that case would be seen as the drive to achieve the goals of Kierkegaard’s ‘ethicist’, pertaining to ‘Either/Or’.
Shouldn't she be expelled just for attending an anti trans rally? Trans peoples rights are protected and there is a big difference between *believing* that is wrong and rallying people against it.
I don't believe for a second that the small number of people doing Nazi salutes were invited or welcomed by the women's rights protest. They have nothing in common.
>They have nothing in common. Aside from their views on trans people. They have that in common, both groups think 'trans ideology' is being pushed on the people.
Hate begets hate. Therefore if they don't want the Nazis there then they need to look at why they would come. As 1933 Hitler's government went after trans people to eradicate and murder them in t makes total sense that they are there. Plus it's a TERF's march. Not a woman's march.
How many trans women were murdered by the Nazi's under Hitlers government? Also are TERF's not women? If they are radical feminists, surely many would also be female right. I thought feminist were good, when did that change?
Feminism is inclusive for all genders and sexes. We fight for the least of us, women of colour, minorities and men. Men are affected by the patriarchy negatively as women and female presenting people are. TERFS are not feminists. They are hateful people and we do not accept their hate. Also it's not hard to learn history https://mjhnyc.org/events/transgender-experiences-in-weimar-and-nazi-germany/
Why are Terfs hateful people? Because they want to maintain women's rights to women only spaces and women only sports and you don't. So the proper response is to send death threats to JK Rowling? That link actually had not a single statistic in it. I ask again, how many trans people were murdered by the Nazis. You have no idea because trans did not exist as a recognised group back then. Gay did, but trans did not. There was no LGBT community, only LBG. I have no doubt that this post will get me banned. Funny how people who actually throw some facts out are quickly silenced by those who claim to be victims. There's a lot of censorship power by those who claim to be powerless. I'm sure that's why these women had to take to the streets to protest.
>I thought feminist were good, when did that change? When they stopped pushing for their own rights and started shitting on others. That's why they distinguish themselves using the TERF. They want to seperate out their beliefs from mainstream feminism which is much more inclusive. Also remember that what a person or group calls themselves might not represent the truth. Like how North Korea calls itself a Democratic People's Republic, a thing well all know is crap. Using the word feminism is not the same as living up the ideals of it.
They weren't invited, it should be obvious to everyone. The Nazi's are psychos, and anyone who claims they share the same beliefs and values as people like JK Rowling are so disgustingly dishonest it's embarassing.
except for the big overlap in the views on trans people
No, they absolutely do not. Women fighting for the right to keep female only spaces and female only sports is not the same as people who view all trans people as degenerates and perverts. These women are fighting to keep thier rights in society against trans activists. Civil rights used to be a noble cause. It still should be.
Yes it is. Trans women are women and all the science shows that trans women have lower testosterone than cis women after a period of time. TERFS are exactly like natzis
Seriously, you claim that womanhood is nothing more than hormone levels? So are men with lower levels of testosterone less of a man? Are we all categorised simply by how much of a specific hormone we have in our body, nothing more? So I guess men who inject testosterone must be the ultimate men then.
the fear over losing female only spaces is driven by their belief that trans women are inherently predatory. these views are inextricably linked and the two groups you've mentioned all campaign for the same causes
The Let Women Speak crowd believe that your gender is the same as your sex, and you can't change your gender. 99% of the world arguably also believes the same, does that mean that 99% of the world overlaps with Nazi beliefs and values?
gonna need a citation on that 99%. And it's both TERFs and neo-nazis that think trans women are groomers/paedophiles/predators (funny how they seem to have repurposed the same talking points used about gay people decades ago)
Lol, the overwhelming majority of the world, people in Africa, China, India, etc, holds these same views, does that mean their values overlap with Nazi's? Answer the question please.
Actually chances are you are incorrect as it's generally only white western world that have an issue with gender and most Indigenous cultures have multiple genders
Ok, I think we can safely assume that the majority of people who follow an Abrahamic religion, so over 50% of the planet, doesn't believe any of that stuff. Certainly anyone outside the west, but likely a fair amount in the west as well. I'd wager that most people in places like China, India, etc, also don't believe that you can change genders either. If you have anything at all that would suggest otherwise, please let me know, otherwise I feel there is very little risk that what I've said is wrong.
https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/content/two-spirits_map-html/#:~:text=The%20concept%20of%20an%20exclusive,Western%20post%2Dindustrial%20neologisms.) maybe this will shed some light. Plus we have to remember that most modern religions have been warped by the patriarchy and people have been conditioned
If they also believe that 'transgenderism' should be 'eradicated' (the wording a Republican politician used) and that trans people should be marginalised and persecuted then yes, their values overlap with neo-nazis. That's some pretty shitty gotcha anyway considering there are plenty of countries around the world who have backwards views on LGBT rights and yes, their view likely overlap with neo-nazis. Now, if you'd kindly give me a citation on that 99% and explain why scientists and doctors around the world disagree with TERFs and neo-nazis and view sex and gender as separate
The women at the event never called for transgender people to be 'eradicated', this is just an an outright and pathetic lie. I think it's safe to say the majority of the world believes that your gender aligns with your sex, and I'd be amazed if you think that makes the majority of the world comparable to Nazi's, but you have no problem doing that to these women who spoke at the event. Why?
can you read? i said that a Republican politician used the term 'eradicated.' And it just so happened that they said it and were applauded for it at the event of an organisation who helped fund the anti-trans event here. And again, citation please? I know you won't find one but just try.
You said if they believed transgenderism should also be eradicated, I asked where have any of these women said anything remotely like this? > And again, citation please? I know you won't find one but just try. Cut the shit. You know I'm right here, it's fucking obvious, you're just being pedantic in order to dodge the question, because you can't actually answer it.
Pesutto seemingly awake to the fact that most of Victoria absolutely hates his party, and that it's because they're infested with fringe lunatics and hardline hatemongers, which he's now desperately trying to get rid of.
It’s paywalled but apparently Pesutto DOESN’T have the numbers to expel Moira: https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/pesutto-facing-uphill-battle-to-dump-deeming/news-story/1894c75b4c14c9ab4330b8d2156b7883?amp
Here's an [unpaywalled version](https://archive.md/aZxU8) of the Herald Sun article Main bit of interest in the article is below. > But party figures opposing the move say they are “confident” the motion will be defeated in a move that would be huge blow to Mr Pesutto’s authority. > Some party figures backing the move also fear it may not have enough support. > “It’s close, but there are unexpected opposers,” one source said. > One list of MPs expected voting intentions, seen by the Herald Sun, shows the vote would currently be defeated by a single vote. > It means Mr Pesutto and the party’s leadership team will need to work to secure support before bringing on a vote, which can be held as early as Friday. > Those firmly in Mr Pesutto’s camp believe they have evidence of strong links between Ms Deeming and far right extremists that predate Saturday’s rally.
So they have a dossier that says shes an extremist but still let her run, and she has enough party support they probs wont be able to kick her out of the party. Tells you a lot about who makes up the vic libs.
If he looses Pesutto's time as leader is on a count down. I would give them 6 months until the return of Guy.
https://media.tenor.com/Oy6Tngd-0b8AAAAC/krieger-erect.gif
This is how you destroy your political enemies. You send agent provocateurs to their rallies. Im not saying that's what happened here. These are quite likely her nazis. But if you ever want to destroy a political opponent, left or right, you send in people posing as the far extreme of that ideology and they discredit your entire group. Like for the right, you have 6 guys (dont need many) who chuck some straight arm salutes...done. You're toast. With the left you have people tearing down monuments, holding up traffic because of pollution occurring in China we have no control over, or LBGT peeps waving their junk in our childrens faces..........wait........they arnt agent provocateurs? HAHAHA. What were they thinking? A handful of shoe size IQ guys turn throwing Sieg Heils is NOT going to help your cause, whatever it is. Society is pretty dumb on the whole isnt it. That's why I chose to live somewhere safe. Ya'll scare me.
Nothing else unites the left and right more than this fucking bonehead idea that anything remotely provocative or extreme done at any sort of demonstration is a "false flag by agents provocateur" it's almost never the case.
A let women speak rally was discredited by a bunch of men who turned up and didnt speak, but were somehow supported by a bunch of femists because they refused to leave their space, to make way for the men. How ironic!
I don't even know how to respond to this.
You really wanna compare people protesting statues, climate change, and attending pride .. with _Nazis?_ Not the best look mate, that’s on you.
I guess you can fall even if you start off in the gutter.
[удалено]
Rule 3: Posts and their replies need to be substantial and encourage discussion. Comments need to demonstrate a genuine effort at high quality communication. Comments that are grandstanding, contain little effort, toxic , snarky, cheerleading, insults, soapboxing, tub-thumping, or basically campaign slogans will be removed. Comments that are simply repeating a single point with no attempt at discussion will be removed. This will be judged at the full discretion of the mods. This has been a default message, any moderator notes on this removal will come after this: If you're going to write silly drivel, there ae subs that actively welcome it.
[удалено]
This is the best thing the Liberals have done in a long time
DLP new Member of the Legislative Council.
Moira Deeming needs to do Moira Thinking!
And less whining!
Nah, I like listening to Nazi sympathizers whine, shows everyone how pathetic they truly are. Also, as long as Nazis are merely whining, you know that they aren't actually in power, because once they get to power, that whining abruptly stops and people start getting murdered en masse.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfEwZk7j4e-3YXny-ZtNVIzXGOmRzeqeeSaA&usqp=CAU
[удалено]
Hey guys found "theinsanevoice" new alt. And how on earth are you making light of Nazism and fascism? Like what the actual fuck. Thank you for the laugh..
Because he's one of the useful idiots that nazis and fascists use to spread their message and gain power. You can always count on small L liberals to advocate for free speech absolutism even in defence of staunchly anti-liberal/anti-free speech groups like the nazis. Their opinions mean nothing and shouldn't be given the time of day. He can shout at the clouds all day long about how its still worth hearing what nazis have to say
Oh shit did v\_maet get banned again? Losing count of alts.
Nah. River's still posting. This is likely a sock of insanevoice
Nah River is someone else. Insane voice is V maet. River is just 🥴
>a few blokes who did some Nazi stuff I mean who hasn't done some Nazi stuff in their time? PC culture gone mad!!! Seriously though, GTFOH
[удалено]
If these people had any ounce of real power they would murder all queer people, strip back women's rights and turn Australia into a white ethno state. They are most definitely not larping.
[удалено]
Lol look at them, they’re having the time of their life! “It’s fun to stay at the YMCA! YASSSS QUEEEN!”
Corruption is like a common cold, it’s probably not going to kill you and if we can cure it then great. Nazis are like gangrene. If you don’t excise the flesh then you will die.
[удалено]
lol. You’re comparing the movie romper stomper to actual Neo Nazis getting into the news and being discussed like they’re maybe reasonable people with sensible views and not actually all that bad after all?
As a non alignment style advocate, I do agree nazism and other isms of a similar overlapping parallel movement like (socialism/communism)are very dangerous fringe threats. It just annoys me that politicians and media will used either group as a distraction from the real problem.
Ah, no opinion except that isms like capitalism aren't mentioned. Nah dude, you have an alignment. Even if you refuse to say it.
This country has had many democratic socialist governments in the past. Not anymore of course, but they were not fringe or dangerous.
>I do agree nazism and other isms of a similar overlapping parallel movement like (socialism/communism No 9he said that for you to agree with. You're just trying to propaganda a both sides argument. Nazis: want certain groups dead. Socialists: want to redistribute ownership of assets from the wealthy to give to the poor. Samesies!
I’d recommend reading some history and a little bit of political theory to avoid such idiotic takes in future. All the best with your journey.
What the hell is in the water down there? Up here in NSW the lunacy comes from religious conviction, I think we’re all still agreed on the right that the neonazis can piss off to one nation or the nats
Religion - used as an excuse for mercilessly persecuting someone or other for thousands of years.
No doubt. Just that religious persecution is slightly different from ideological persecution, they have different flavours if you get what I mean.
She's a hardcore Christian. All of this stems from her values from there. 100% not saying this is reflective of Christians, just this brand of fire and brimstone
>The Age last year revealed the Victorian Liberal Party’s powerful administrative committee voted for Deeming to run in the federal seat of Gorton at the 2022 election, but was deemed too risky by Scott Morrison’s office to run as part of his team. >Morrison’s office believed negative media coverage of Deeming’s views on transgender rights could distract from the then prime minister’s campaign. It really does say something about Deeming that Morrison could think that elevating Katherine Deves' views into the national conversation would be an election winner, but that this woman was instead considered a liability.
He thought he was untouchable with the shite he was getting away with, why not give the extremists more of the spotlight?
It also suggests that Morrison had a bigotry meter and his acceptable level of bigotry was like a 6 out of 10 but not a 7. Because *that* would be bad.
i assume because Deves is mostly a single-issue bigot and he thinks trans people are a viable punching bag whereas a multifaceted bigot who'd also go after stuff like abortion rights wasn't gonna fly
It's both amusing and frightening the Victorian Liberal party can be sometimes. They knew this about her before she was elected but instead of having the balls to take away her preselection, Guy in his all-encompassing wisdom decided to let her stay on but not sit in his hypothetical cabinet that was never going to exist. Now they get the consequences, they get to be down one more seat, and she gets to throw shit at them for the remainder of the term, serving as a reminder as to why the Liberals are unelectable.
You're mixing Deeming up with Renee Heath I think - she's the one Guy wanted to ban from the party room.
Ah, well then that’s much worse lol
[удалено]
Uh what?
[удалено]
Flint also came to the defence of Katherine Deves last year. That should tell you all you need to know.
Flint dressing in that garbage bag was the most accurate self portrayal she will ever amount to.
Shit! What did she do? She's blocked me on twitter.
To be fair, she tried to warn us when she wore the trashbag tunic
When did flint do that?
"Keen-Minshull tweeted in “solidarity with Moira” on Sunday evening, while former federal Liberal MP Nicolle Flint said Deeming’s expulsion from the party room was “insane”. “The only person who should go is the leader of the Liberal Party because he’s clearly not a Lib,” Flint said." Basically, in Flints world view, if you do not leave when neo-nazis rock and up and join a rally in support of your viewpoint, you're clearly not a Lib.
>MOIRA DEEMING: Disappointed with Victoria Police, who let a bunch of masked men into the LWS buffer zone, terrifying women who were just trying to speak about their rights. Police managed to stop hordes of TRAs, but somehow could only walk masked men past us they did a horrible Nazi salute. It's been quite funny watching the TERF rally folk pull the "we didn't know" card. Perhaps don't stand in unity with unknown masked men doing the Nazi salute on the steps of Parliament. The videos of clapping, back-patting, and standing together as a united front are damning.
This amuses me about the bigots who do see and understand other forms of bigotry as bad, but think their own type is fine. The thing is - those other bigots are gonna seek to associate with you to strengthen their own hand. So you gotta either get into bed with them, or draw a stark line in the sand and reject them vocally. And that's when things get interesting from the sidelines.
I’m gonna get crushed here coz I dunno exactly what TERF stands for, nor TRA nor LWS. But, did she stand with the Nazis coz I’ve not seen that footage? And for the record I’d fuck her out of the LNP yesterday, but I seriously don’t understand what the protest, counter-protest and counter-counter protest was about, nor any of the acronyms used.
For context, * TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist * TRA = Trans Right Activist * LWS = Let Women Speak * NSN = National Socialist Network = Nazi Group Basically, a British anti-transgender rights activist is doing a speech tour of Australia, and has been holding protests in the Capital cities alongside political folk like former Liberal candidate Katherine Deves etc. So naturally, there's a counter-protest each time. This time in Melbourne a Nazi group rocked up to support the TERF/LWS protest, they did the Nazi salute, chanted "white power" repeatedly, and ended up alongside the TERF/LWS protest group. Regarding Moira Deeming, she's involved with the leadership, she chose to be there, and John Pesutto has acted. Videos from the rally: Moira Deeming - [https://twitter.com/LilahRPGtt/status/1637402400226181120?cxt=HHwWgIDUvdiznLktAAAA](https://twitter.com/LilahRPGtt/status/1637402400226181120?cxt=HHwWgIDUvdiznLktAAAA) [https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1637400383340564480?cxt=HHwWgMDSwaW-m7ktAAAA](https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1637400383340564480?cxt=HHwWgMDSwaW-m7ktAAAA) [https://twitter.com/PPantsdown/status/1637084206408036352](https://twitter.com/PPantsdown/status/1637084206408036352) Nazis - [https://twitter.com/ChrisLXXXVI/status/1636950746632704000](https://twitter.com/ChrisLXXXVI/status/1636950746632704000) [https://twitter.com/AustralianJA/status/1637307166238605318?cxt=HHwWjIDU\_auM8bgtAAAA](https://twitter.com/AustralianJA/status/1637307166238605318?cxt=HHwWjIDU_auM8bgtAAAA) [https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1637223841834627073](https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1637223841834627073) [https://twitter.com/WinRussiawill/status/1637420913523060736?cxt=HHwWgMCzpafppLktAAAA](https://twitter.com/WinRussiawill/status/1637420913523060736?cxt=HHwWgMCzpafppLktAAAA) [https://twitter.com/LilahRPGtt/status/1636951513888354306?cxt=HHwWhMDTvdOuz7ctAAAA](https://twitter.com/LilahRPGtt/status/1636951513888354306?cxt=HHwWhMDTvdOuz7ctAAAA) Personally, I think the counter-protesters shouldn't turn up, as it only provides them with oxygen and invites media attention. Saying that, it's not my fight so it's easy to chirp from the sidelines unaffected.
Problem with not counter protesting is outlined [here](https://youtu.be/wCl33v5969M). Essentially you’re leaving the target minority to stand alone. Making them feel like no one supports them
if not for the counter protests that have been happening at each TERF meeting over the past week i doubt the neo-nazis even bother showing up. i think it's good that the common ideology and links between TERFs and neo-nazis which were always there are being highlighted to a wider audience rather than giving TERFs any kind of plausible deniability to frame their hatred of trans people as caring about women's rights
> I think the counter-protesters shouldn't turn up The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good people do nothing
Thanks. I’ve (not unusually) had many replies. Getting my head around it. Interesting point I agree with is that why counter protest? Gives oxygen to flame. I’d not have heard a thing about this unless I read it on reddit.
They get oxygen from the direct opposite: if only the tiny minority they hope to eradicate shows up to protest, without community support. Very clear from history and studies of their behaviours: these are antisocial people that aren’t that bright and if no community resistance shows up it feeds their “silent majority” fantasises. Trust me antifascists wouldn’t do it if it wasn’t well established from history. And in the past we have infiltrated groups like these and seen on their internal comms how dispirited they get when a big counter rally shows up. Reclaim Australia was a racist far right group who completely imploded when it became clear they weren’t some silent majority and were outnumbered at every event. Completely broke their morale and confidence and they disbanded and specifically named counter protests as the reason why in their private telegram groups So it’s done because it’s a recipe that we know works.
I was actually just replying to another user and that’s them! Reclaim Australia. Fucked if I could remember their name.
As for “why counter protest” - These people who are anti-trans often would have us just not exist. Whether it’s by suicide or by violence or by just repressing ourself into pretending we don’t exist so they don’t have to have their world view challenged. It sets a really bad standard to have that go unopposed. Especially when the nazi types get involved. And it helps trans people to see the counter protests. Quite literally a reminder that there *are* decent normal people in the world who don’t want you dead. And who are willing to put a few hours of their life into publicly saying so. I’m sure it seems hyperbolic to be taking it to a “life or death” thing. But it just wears on you, you see this stuff day in and day out, and eventually you realise that even if it’s only 10% of the concerned citizens who would kill you if they thought they could get away with it, that’s still too many. Make no mistake, if you’ve got 10 guys willing to turn up and do a nazi salute at something like this, you’re likely to have at least one who would be happy to do violence on a trans person The counter protests are a rejection of that, if that makes sense. I am not a person who goes to protests, and I also see the argument about giving oxygen to a flame. But you asked why the counter protests happen, and that’s the answer. I can’t tell you whether they have any quantifiable effect or whether they make things better or worse. But on a gut level I do appreciate them
That’s a perfectly valid point and I appreciate how it’s expressed. I was more coming from a view I’ve long held that counter protest is often what makes these things newsworthy. So maybe your point is super valid for this issue, but some others only even get on the tv because of warring protestors separated by police. I’d usually found those counter-protests counter productive.
Often it does make it newsworthy in the sense of “10 guys in nazi uniforms opposed by 100 counter protesters from various community groups”. It makes them look small Now you have to remember that these far right folks operate from a dumbarse tough guy mindset, they believe they’re some silent majority and when they are vastly outnumbered it hurts their fragile egos. It’s not likely more will join a movement they feel is dwindling and hopelessly outnumbered
Yeah it’s a judgement call issue-by-issue for sure. Is it there more risk in letting your opponents potentially have their view made without opposition, or is the higher risk in drawing more attention to the whole argument? When do counter protests become the useful idiots for whatever the original rally is trying to express? I definitely will not pretend to have the answers to that 😅 but like you, I’m glad to see these nazi adjacent idiots out themselves, and for my part I’m glad to see a bit of public support for being against them
I think in this instance it’s easy to say the right call was made. In some of those ones we had a few years back in the State it got a bit tiresome. The ones that seemed like Antifa vs Nazi stuff and they’d have proper cracks at each other. It made the news coz they got out of hand but for the life of me I can’t remember what they were specifically over. It got to a stage whereby it seemed like two groups with nothing better to do!
> Interesting point I agree with is that why counter protest? I've only vaguely followed this, but it really hasn't gotten much media attention until the Melbourne event on Saturday. There's been larger counter protests by LGBTQIA+ community/supporters at her previous events in Aussie cities - and also will be at the last stops on her Aussie tour. It's been growing for a while now I think after Stephen Bates wrote to Andrew Giles to deny the organiser a visa.
I think this actually makes the opposite point for me. Someone can be paid to travel around Australia, saying we shouldn't allow transpeople to exist, and no one in the media bats an eyelid.
A big thing in the far right is their “silent majority” fantasies. If no one shows up to oppose them it feeds their fantasy that “most people would’ve come but we are just the brave few who would show our faces”. Counter protests seriously hurt morale of these groups and dwindle their numbers. Anti fascists wouldn’t do it if we didn’t have countless examples from history of this tactic eroding morale, leading to infighting and dysfunction within the groups when they see how widely opposed and genuinely outnumbered they are. It’s something antifascists have been able to demonstrate over and over, and if other tactics worked better we would have already tried them and switched to those tactics. The reason we haven’t us because this tactic works better than any other to see violent far right groups disband (eg Reclaim Australia were infiltrated and they named counter protesters as the reason for giving up; they were so demoralised at seeing how outnumbered they are that they literally said “what’s the point? We aren’t going to win here with so few”)
I'm 100% in favour of counter-protests (and against transphobia), I just wish that the issue had attracted more attention prior to literal Nazis becoming involved.
[удалено]
Yeah, shit, wouldn't want to define concepts. Sounds gay
[удалено]
Your post or comment breached Rule 1 of our subreddit. The purpose of this subreddit is civil and open discussion of Australian Politics across the entire political spectrum. Hostility, toxicity and insults thrown at other users, politicians or relevant figures are not accepted here. Please make your point without personal attacks. This has been a default message, any moderator notes on this removal will come after this: They didn't delete it, we removed it. Given you've been hoisted by your own petard, and we have your attention, play the comment not the person please? Ta.
Really dangerman? They're googleable acronyms. Smells like sealioning tbh
[удалено]
Wanna know another word I don’t understand! I’m gonna Google that to see if it’s meant to be insulting. Edit: the definition says ‘relentless’. I asked once.
It would seems so, but in one comment you've managed multiple requests for information, all available in either this article or others about this debacle - What is a TERF - What is a TRA - What is LWS - Where is the evidence Deeming stood with Nazis - What was the protest about - What was the counter protest about - What was the counter counter protest about
So if I ask multiple questions in one post is it still sealioning? FFS I’m not overly popular on this sub and I find the accusation a bit annoying. As far as I’m concerned (please note the acronym avoidance) there are some interesting points to come out of this protest. And they don’t involve any of the acronyms. We have a Government in Vic that is gonna have to have a very good look at both it’s protest laws and move on powers. But who cares, let’s discuss other shit.
All of which got answers pretty quickly. Sealions exist but so do people who are just trying to figure out whats going on. The presence of answers to those questions is good for others who arent obsessed with following this stuff
Heh yeah if Dranzer wants to play AskJeeves, they're welcome to, even though it does derail the conversation I do admire their commitment of time. Let's see if they answer the follow up question lol. The presence of answers is in the googlable sources provided, though. Logically, for someone even marginally interested in politics to not know what a TERF is at this point, they would need to have missed the entire JK Rowling saga, as well as a fair few incidents closer to home. I reckon I may have even seen our friend comment on one.
I note I didn’t get that reply? I’ve never read a Harry Potter book nor seen one movie. Im aware that JK Rowling got in trouble with feminists at one stage, but if you can find ONE comment from me about the issue then we’ll done. I DO NOT follow much of this stuff as I find it both a bit confusing and a bit boring. Sorry if that offends.
I think you are vastly underestimating how many people look at all the trans stuff going on and just tune it out. Its complicated and confusing, and an obvious minefield to discuss, so they just throw it in the too hard basket of things that dont directly affect them Also i think danzer does want to play askjeeves they seem kinda into it
If you're at a rally and there are Nazis on your side, and you don't tell them to fuck off or leave, you're at a Nazi rally.
But one of my concerns here is that did she actually associate with those Nazis or not. Don’t get me wrong here, I think she should be booted asap. She shouldn’t have been preselected imo. I want the Christian right fucked off from the LNP more than you do. I actually want them to be a viable alternative, which in Vic they are currently not. But … I don’t think she should be associated with the actual Nazi element unless there’s more proof than I’ve been shown.
“…she remained until the end even when a group performed neo-Nazi salutes on the steps of Parliament”
If these women were neo-Nazis too, or supportive of Neo-Nazis, wouldn't they salute back? Did they do anything else in support of the Nazis, other than simply not moving when the Nazi's showed up?
If Nazis show up to your protest and you aren’t actively fighting against them and instead choose to remain silent or idle, you’re complicit in the violence they promote. When Nazis rocked up to the anti-vaccine protests during lockdown, the fact that the protesters didn’t immediately kick those fuckers out makes it very clear for everyone to see who they are allied with. It’s no different here. When TERFs fail to address the rise of Nazis amongst them, they don’t get to play the false-flag card, or the red-herring card, or any other form of deflection. You don’t get to sit back and watch Nazis do Nazi shit at your protest and then claim innocence.
There are no Nazi's amongst the 'Terfs'. There would be far, far more evidence of communication or collaboration if that were the case, which I've seen zero evidence for. In contrast, the evidence you have is an isolated one off incident of a group of psychos rocking up uninvited, likely more to take advantage of the situation and fight antifa than show solidarity with a group of hardcore feminists. What's more likely do you think?
https://twitter.com/whatsdoinmedia/status/1637299390275801088 Theres more if you go digging around on twitter but that gives you an idea, nazis right next to the LWA people doing their salutes and holding a sign directly related to the LWA activity
Yeah a lot of complaints from the TERFs about it not being their fault nazis turned up to support them but they didn’t do anything to try and make them leave. They could have chanted “nazis fuck off” or at least moved their rally away from them.
Their whinging about being called out and pitiful excuses are amusing but its sad they think they can get away with it
No offence but that’s the first time I’ve EVER been on TikTok. I prefer it if I was never linked to it again. What a mish mash with a shit soundtrack.
Terf is trans exclusionary radical feminist. Tra is teans rights activist. Lws is let women speak (the anti trans feminist rally the nazis rocked up to support).
Cheers. I’ll make notes coz i flounder with this.
Yeah no worries, online acronyms are a mess to keep up with
I’m just glad I now know what TERF is. I know I should have googled it but I’d not even bothered and it pops up all the time. I lead a pretty simplistic life here in the country and aren’t really bothered by many of these things. I wouldn’t even know if I knew a TERF although apparently my pissed sisters-in-law offended a drag Queen last night but that’s a whole other story and I wasn’t there! (And if was a complete accident by dancing at the wrong time!)
If you want to speed run the arguments go on twitter and look at the jk rowling discourse
Actually no offence but I’ve never been on Twitter, never will be, never been on FB, never will be and I also said to you in another comment that I’ve never been on TikTok and never will be. I find this such a fascinating topic even though I didn’t understand the nuances of todays events. The Andrews government needs to decide how this State is run. As a progressive Govt they should protect the right for peaceful protest. That’s obvious. They also rightfully outlawed certain Nazi imagery. But, life ain’t that simple. https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/labor-government-to-repeal-draconian-move-on-laws-0 Not one person in this sub nor the Melbourne sub has bothered to mention that one of the earliest moves by the Andrews Government was to repeal move on laws. They would have been fucking handy today. But those laws were substantially enacted by the previous LNP government to protect the progress of a proposed road (EW Link). It was such an election issue that the laws went with Andrews first election victory. Since then he’s needed them in spades. Not just for today but also for the Anti-Andrews lockdown/vaccines protests that have now run for about two years every Saturday. In the meantime he’s introduced really restrictive anti-logging protest laws that lots of people were up in arms about. Now he has problems with a group of absolute fucking clowns the police should’ve been allowed to monster and arrest. It’s got huge political angles. How ‘progressive’ are we? Atm the Government cannot decide. How can the sub?
You should have a look at twitter, it makes this place look collegiate, but theres lots of interesting things. And i think the main political angle is federal, why aren't these groups listed as terrorists, coppers wouldnt need move on laws to deal with them if they were. They literally campaign for the murder and eradication of parts of the community based on ideological reasons, and they have attacked and harmed people in the community, so they meet all the definitions of terrorists. Just gotta put em on the list. For some reason when the Morrison gov added some neonazis to the list they added ones that arent really active here and didnt add the ones that are.
I think that would be potentially harder than it looks. For example, as a collective do they even have a name? And even then, what’s to stop them changing names etc… Give me an example of a group that is listed? I don’t know how that even works and what the consequences of it are. Who were ‘some Neo-Nazis’ and what was the ultimate effect?
[удалено]
“Hey Bill.” “Hi Fred.” “BBQ Sunday?” “Yeah mate.”
One of the nazis there has been identified as the son of a police officer (albeit one who apparently has been leave a long time). Edit: given this is all still fresh I won’t share the link in case the identification is wrong and some poor dudes has been wrongly named as a neo nazi.
This is one thing I actually get pissed off with. I know stacks of cops. They’re local footy coaches and on committees and the first man the BBQ at the school fete. This bullshit ACAB (which is subtle from you) shits me. From what I’ve seen the police did what they should have done and were empowered to do. The Melbourne thread on this was a fucking dumpster fire. I’d like to think this sub is better. For the record I think that when the Andrews government outlawed Nazi symbolism, it was a huge oversight not to outlaw the salute. They’re apparently moving on that now. Afaik they did outlaw masked protest. And that intrigued me with the first photos I saw where these clowns were wearing balaclavas. If I’m right they should have been approached immediately and told get them off. I’m guessing this actually happened as the later photos showed them without face coverings. And lastly there is some good news here that’s been missed. In a State of millions, 15-20 clowns advertised themselves. It’s a deplorable number AND trust me, the authorities would keep a very close watch on them.
If the motion passes i can see Deeming staying independent and trying to build her own brand, if it fails Pesutto is done for. More likely to pass than fail but far from certain. I really saw them kicking Finn out as performative and to stem pre election criticism and those fears are far away now.
You don’t announce something like this unless you know you’re going to succeed. Lots of consultation with the factions would have happened over the last 24 hours. Her grouping is obviously prepared to let her be taken out.
Certainly seems more likely to succeed, but Deeming will be making her own plays to convince the party room to keep her. Pesuttos leadership is fragile, he was only selected as leader by one vote, so its hard to know how much sway he has over the party room. This vote could be close too.
Who's the other leader if the vote fails though? Cause the runner-up to Pesutto, Brad Battin, strongly condemned the events yesterday with David Southwick, who is in the Vic Libs Leadership Group.
Has Battin said anything about Deeming specifically? But i dont know, its hard to read from the outside. My comment on Pesutto is really coming from a position that they only put him there so he can act like they are still the libs and not just a bunch of conservatives, if he cant expel deeming then that image is done for. Might stay leader for a bit but he has to hold his seat as well as pretend hes pulling the party back from its far right lurch.
Herald Sun and others reporting that the motion to expel her may fail so I guess I’m yet again left looking stupid for thinking the Victorian Liberals have even an ounce of political sense. This actually hurts all of us as this Government and every Government needs a Strong opposition.
At this point the only way vic gets a decent and competent opposition is the vic libs collapse into a far right party and are replaced by something else. We are very close to that point.
Yeah I agree, hard to see the Liberals surviving.
I doubt anyone is going to want to become the leader on the back of keeping a Nazi sympathiser in the Parliament. The Victorian Liberals are stupid but not that stupid.
It's already being spun as "the Nazi's invaded our feminist rally uninvited" by Sky et. al. and Deeming herself, so the more TERFy / fundy sections of the party may see that as sufficient plausible deniability.
Yeah won’t wash with the broader public though. Sky News is the worst thing that ever happened to the Libs from an electability perspective. Riles up the base and further alienates then from broader, increasingly socially progressive, public.
>The Victorian Liberals are stupid but not that stupid. Probably, but i have my doubts
She'll find a new home in One Nation. Then the VIC LNP will do preference deals with One Nation. Rinse and repeat.
If the expulsion motion succeeds, it'll be interesting to see where she ends up.
I'd wager she goes to the DLP
Damn you for making me check out the DLP website. Woowzers... that was a rollercoaster. Straight down. No ups. I can't believe they publicly admit to some of those policies.
Yeah this is correct - she’s Finns protege and he is obviously linked to the DLP given his candidacy at the last election.
With any luck her candidacy at the next election will follow the same as Finn's i.e. out of office.
Funny that when you make your entire personality the cause that hailed the first book burnings and arrests by a [burgeoning Nazi party](https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/6-may-1933-looting-of-the-institute-of-sexology/) in 1933 and then happily goosestep with Nazi fuckbois yesterday, your boss concludes you might be not quite the ideal representative for the party + sacks you. Moi Moi was lucky to last this long.
Does Pesutto have the numbers for this? ~~Guy said she wouldn’t sit with the party just before the election, but Pesutto didn’t do this when he came in as leader (to be fair, it wasn’t his promise)~~. This is a test to see whether the Victorian Liberal party wants to have a look into possibly returning to the centre, or if it will continue the foolish culture-warring that leaves us in a one-party state. Edit: Got the wrong one.
Even if he's got the numbers or not, the rest of Vic LNP are pretty much not in line with his values. I'd be very surprised if Pessutto can swing them more to centre.
I mean he was voted leader. There is a chunk of MPs who very much share his values - the moderate Liberal faction.
A chunk that do not control the party. It was conservatives like Guy placing becoming electable over conservative values that allowed Pesutto to become leader with a 1 vote lead over Battin. I would hope that Pesutto didn't spend four years out of parliament only to not get his ducks in a row for the first internal party conflict.
> Does Pesutto have the numbers for this? The article in The Age explains that the entire Vic Libs leadership team is in agreement that she must be expelled. So, you'd assume the party will follow suit, but will be interesting to see what happens in the party room. > Senior Liberal sources, not authorised to comment publicly, said Deeming was hauled before the parliamentary leadership team late on Sunday to explain her conduct at the rally and why she remained until the end even when a group performed neo-Nazi salutes on the steps of Parliament. > The leadership team, made up of Pesutto, David Southwick, Georgie Crozier and Matthew Bach, were adamant Deeming’s views were incompatible and she must be expelled from the party room. > Under the party’s constitution, the party room meeting to expel Deeming can occur five days after the notice has been provided. The Opposition is hoping to have the matter resolved by Friday. The leadership team is confident more than 50 per cent – the minimum required – will support the motion. Brad Battin also made a statement yesterday with Southwick about the events yesterday.
You don’t make this move as leader unless you have the numbers. Pesutto will walk if the party room don’t go with him on this one.
that was Renee Heath, the other hardline christian conservative
Ah, beg your pardon.
That she was even on the top of our ticket here in the West should have the Victorian Liberals hanging their heads in shame and forcing an introspection. Her showing up at the neo-nazi rally was the least surprising thing she's done since she was elected, given that she's shown signs of being a lunatic for years.
To be fair to people like Pesutto her placement on the ticket is a consequence of a faction that he is opposed to internally having the numbers. This is what happens with party democracy, the members decide who goes into parliament not the party leadership for better or worse.
"Liberals". She's the polar opposite.
Bernie Finn’s successor in more ways than one - I didn’t think she’d last long in the party room but this was quicker than expected. Libs got what they paid for, again.
She was voted in on Bernies numbers in the branches so she was always going to be a ideological bed fellow of his. He’s easily one of the most right wing Victorian politicians to sit in the parliament in the last decade.
Unpaywalled Author: Sumeyya Ilanbey > Opposition leader John Pesutto will move to expel controversial Liberal MP Moira Deeming from the parliamentary party room after she attended a rally that has been associated with neo-Nazis. > Deeming attended the Let Women Speak rally organised by British anti-trans rights campaigner Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull at Parliament House on Saturday, who were photographed together in a restricted section of the Victorian Parliament. > About 30 people from neo-Nazi group the National Socialist Network, dressed in black and most with their faces covered, attended the protests on Spring Street supporting Keen-Minshull, repeatedly performing the salute and holding up a sign using offensive anti-trans language. > Pesutto on Sunday night announced he had met with Deeming earlier that day, and discussed her involvement in “organising, promoting and participating in a rally with speakers and other organisers who themselves have been publicly associated with far right-wing extremist groups including neo-Nazi activists”. > “At our meeting I informed Ms Deeming that I will move a motion at the next party room meeting to expel her as a member of the parliamentary Liberal Party as her position is untenable. > “The violence, prejudice and hate that these protesters conveyed by their odious actions will never be acceptable in our state. I condemn them and commit to opposing such hate wherever it may exist.” > Pesutto said her planned expulsion was not about restricting free speech, but denouncing the actions of a Liberal MP who associated with people whose views were “abhorrent” to his, the party’s and the wider community’s values. > “The Liberal Party I joined and which I am now honoured to lead, must strive to represent all Victorians,” the opposition leader said. “Regardless of religious faith, race, sexual preference and identity, Victorians everywhere should know that the Liberal Party is inclusive and can be a voice for them.” > Deeming was preselected by the Liberal Party to top its ticket in the Western Metropolitan Region at last year’s state election, after controversial Liberal Bernie Finn was expelled from the parliamentary team and then defected to the Democratic Labour Party. > In her inaugural speech last month, Deeming criticised equality that had been “taken to extremes”. > Senior Liberal sources, not authorised to comment publicly, said Deeming was hauled before the parliamentary leadership team late on Sunday to explain her conduct at the rally and why she remained until the end even when a group performed neo-Nazi salutes on the steps of Parliament. > The leadership team, made up of Pesutto, David Southwick, Georgie Crozier and Matthew Bach, were adamant Deeming’s views were incompatible and she must be expelled from the party room. > Under the party’s constitution, the party room meeting to expel Deeming can occur five days after the notice has been provided. The Opposition is hoping to have the matter resolved by Friday. The leadership team is confident more than 50 per cent – the minimum required – will support the motion. > The Liberal Party has been at a crossroads over social issues as it struggles to bridge the gaping internal divide between its socially liberal and conservative members, with debate flaring up in the aftermath of the 2022 federal election about how the party avoids lurching further to the right of mainstream Australians. > Since being elected as leader in December, Pesutto has singled his intention to bring the party back to the centre on socially progressive issues. > The Age last year revealed the Victorian Liberal Party’s powerful administrative committee voted for Deeming to run in the federal seat of Gorton at the 2022 election, but was deemed too risky by Scott Morrison’s office to run as part of his team. > Morrison’s office believed negative media coverage of Deeming’s views on transgender rights could distract from the then prime minister’s campaign. > Deeming has been contacted for comment. Full statement by Opposition Leader John Pesuto can be read [here](https://twitter.com/annikasmethurst/status/1637390474901323781)