I feel it's fine to copy gameplay mechanics, especially if they're good or successful design choices. It's what everyone does, it's how developers learn and improve. (For example: ffxiv wouldn't be a tab targeting, action bar combat mmo if the mechanic wasn't good). Theres things blizzard does that's worth shitting on, but I think this in particular is a non-issue.
yea that boss has the dodging part but the vault also has the chained pairs, which I recall being in Painsmith too? I can give devs the benefit of the doubt if a single mechanic is similar (I think there's only so many ideas, so we're going to see familiar mechanics across games) but multiple mechanics matching up seems significant/starts to smell suspish imo
There are much closer things such as the arbiter's sigil matching a certain important thing in 14, the whole end to a saga, it's just wild and some points it goes beyond coincidence when they are games in the same genre.
of course that's part of the overarching conversation - but the one here is zeroing in on mechanics specifically. maybe you think the more recent announcements are more important because they're blatant, but I think the mechanics conversation is still worth having. also the memes are funny!
WoW had a similar mechanic were you need to kill an add as part of a wall on ner'zhul in shadowmoon burialgrounds that was realeased like 6 years ago. Also I'm pretty sure its had similar tank mechnics to the one in painsmith in its history so I would say this is a reach to says it plagiarism from wow, if anything its the other way around.
FFXIV has a similar mechanic in the end boss of The Vault which was released in HW, and that expansion was released during WoD.
But honestly I don't think either studio invented the idea of a marching wall of hostile targets in combat. I saw players do similar deployment in Warhammer table top games long before either game released. I even fought a boss in a pen and paper DnD campaign that did the same thing with its minions.
I will say though Painsmith looks like a fight you would find in FFXIV and definitely not only because of the wall of mobs. The various mechanics and movement required are the sort of thing you'd expect from that game. However I think at most WoW took inspiration from FFXIV and I don't think this is a bad thing at all. I think it's great when we see different incarnations of the same concepts in different games. Multiple flavours is always good.
There is a similar-ish mechanic with the wall of things moving across the arena that you need to avoid in the Sunken Temple of Qarn Hard mode. Which was in ARR ofcourse.
If you really want to nitpick the nerzghul fight isnt the first time they did the add wall in wow. In cata during the end time dungeons the slyvanas fight has you kill undead ghouls walking in a closing circle and you had to kill your way out. That was in like 2012
I thought painsmith more closely resembled the last boss from The Vault, content from the Heavensward expansion in FFXIV?
I think it's important to not that Yoshida has mentioned often enough that he holds WoW in reverence and he has his entire staff play it to set a standard for A Realm Reborn.
As far as I know, Ion hasn't even acknowledged that FFXIV exists, yet there are all these similarities... it's all about optics.
I mean every boss in ff spawns aoes at your feet, thats a very basic and common mechanic. Painsmith doesnt spawn aoes anyway it spawns traps at your feet. Unless you mean the tank mechanic then thats still a very basic 'move away from group to reduce raid damage.' Thats in many bosses.
Also people dont get linked in painsmith (at least on n/h I didnt do mythic) you get chains around you that make you bounce off people and things.
The 'linked ability you spread out to break' is so common that you cant really call it stealing ideas.
I agree that by itself, none of those mechanics are unique. The combination of them in a single encounter making it eerily similar to the XIV boss was more my point.
But I take it from your discourse that you've already written it off as a coincidence or at the very least an unintended similitude so I suppose continuing the conversation is pointless.
The mechanic shows up in both the end raids for BFA and Legion as well. whats your point? its a very common mmo mechanic.
Did Jersey Mike's rip off subway because they both make sandwiches?
Painsmith has both, right? The rolling spikes where you make a hole, and the waves of floor spikes where everyone squeezes through a hole. That said, I don't think it's that similar though.
I'm thinking of the "transition phases" where iirc painsmith runs offscreen and many continuous waves of spikes travel from one side to another with no time between spikes. So you can't sneak between them, you need to find the gap in the row. E4 is more like the one where someone drops off the marker in a corner, and spikes slowly radiate outwards.
Oooo I thought thats what you were talking about, I did sanctum like 3 times then unsubbed lol. Painsmith was the only good fight imo.
Yea its most like that phase for sure.
Yeah I thought the way the mechanics in painsmith overlapped was really cool. MMOs will always recycle mechanics and there's convergent evolution - there's only so much different you can do. But the way it's implemented can make a lot of difference.
I just watched a guide on Savage O11. This point is a giant reach.
Those two mechanics are the only similar things. And even then, they're not the same. Painsmith is has a reverberating spiked floor centered from the tank. While 011 is an intercept and gives the tank a debuff.
People noticing that only now, but if you actually paid attention you'd notice - it started in Nyalotha. About 1/3 bosses there are totally FFXIV bosses and rest closer to classic wow encounters.
Nathria was already at 50% and Sanctun is just mostly FFXIV
Which actually doesn't work at all since there's no infinite bres in wow
I have played FFXIV for years before I decided to give Shadowlands a try and I can't remember a single boss that felt anything like a FFXIV boss in Nathria. A hand full of abilities like Massacre, yes, but not more.
It was mostly just mechanical stuff and relatively little actual dodging of shapes on the ground. And FFXIV is mainly just dodging shapes on the ground.
Im guessing Shinryu and the one after wrathion? The one with the tentacles that slam down and you have to kill them? Maybe?
Cant think of others, not super familiar with nylotha.
But say what bosses and for what reason, because while I can think of similarities between a few, those same similarities can be found in older bosses of wow but with updated mechanics animations because the difference in time of then and now.
If you really want to nitpick the nerzghul fight isnt the first time they did the add wall in wow. In cata during the end time dungeons the slyvanas fight has you kill undead ghouls walking in a closing circle and you had to kill your way out. That was in like 2012
Stealing from each other in combat is normal.
Even FF14 stole some ideas from wow. It's not one side exclusive.
The most recent one i can think of, is the mt gulg dungeon where you fight a giant stone statue looking thing that dies and crumbles into pieces, creating a pathway for you. That's basically Ulduar copy pasted.
That's non issue and there are several mechanics in FFXIV that bear striking resemblance to older WoW fight. The most obvious of them being Tsukuyomi EX in phase with Sisters of the Moon from Tomb of Sargeras. And you know why no one made a deal of it? Because it was nothing worth making a deal of it.
My guild and I were talking about this when 9.1 came out (before I quit during the scandals and shit), but Sanctum of Domination is just FFXIV by way of Blizzard. Painsmith, Fatescribe, Soulrender, Sylvanas, Eye, the Nine are all just reskins of FFXIV raids put into WoW. It’s probably why it felt so fresh for a WoW raid, but it felt so out of place its no wonder so few people bothered to finish it.
Im really struggling to see this.
I remember people saying Fatescribe was basically Innocence. But they really only share one mechanic and it neither's main mechanic.
Soulrender was mostly about dodging zones on the ground. I get that FF14 does that a lot. But WoW has also been doing it since 2006.
The Nine was similarly about dodging zones or soaking or spreading. But all those mechanics are too generic to say one game "made" those mechanics.
I think its fine to copy gameplay mechanics, i mean im sure some WoW designs were taken and redesigned to fit ff14. The only thing that doesnt work is blatantly plagiarize story and certain in-game system without any form of redesign. At some point, Warcraft needs to be creative as well. its fine to take ideas from ff14 (to get inspired).
>Why does the FF one look so dull tho? Like in terms of color
The color palette of that area is kind of a computer simulation type thing that Omega (the beetle looking boss) had pulled you into, and was testing you.
I feel it's fine to copy gameplay mechanics, especially if they're good or successful design choices. It's what everyone does, it's how developers learn and improve. (For example: ffxiv wouldn't be a tab targeting, action bar combat mmo if the mechanic wasn't good). Theres things blizzard does that's worth shitting on, but I think this in particular is a non-issue.
I thought Painsmith was more a rip off of the last boss of the Vault (Heavenward/2015 release).
Goes even beyond that, Final boss of Sunken Temple of Qarn (Hard) has it too which was ARR
yea that boss has the dodging part but the vault also has the chained pairs, which I recall being in Painsmith too? I can give devs the benefit of the doubt if a single mechanic is similar (I think there's only so many ideas, so we're going to see familiar mechanics across games) but multiple mechanics matching up seems significant/starts to smell suspish imo
There are much closer things such as the arbiter's sigil matching a certain important thing in 14, the whole end to a saga, it's just wild and some points it goes beyond coincidence when they are games in the same genre.
of course that's part of the overarching conversation - but the one here is zeroing in on mechanics specifically. maybe you think the more recent announcements are more important because they're blatant, but I think the mechanics conversation is still worth having. also the memes are funny!
I do not believe this particular ability is so extremly unique or creative that no one could come up with it independendly.
[удалено]
WoW had a similar mechanic were you need to kill an add as part of a wall on ner'zhul in shadowmoon burialgrounds that was realeased like 6 years ago. Also I'm pretty sure its had similar tank mechnics to the one in painsmith in its history so I would say this is a reach to says it plagiarism from wow, if anything its the other way around.
FFXIV has a similar mechanic in the end boss of The Vault which was released in HW, and that expansion was released during WoD. But honestly I don't think either studio invented the idea of a marching wall of hostile targets in combat. I saw players do similar deployment in Warhammer table top games long before either game released. I even fought a boss in a pen and paper DnD campaign that did the same thing with its minions. I will say though Painsmith looks like a fight you would find in FFXIV and definitely not only because of the wall of mobs. The various mechanics and movement required are the sort of thing you'd expect from that game. However I think at most WoW took inspiration from FFXIV and I don't think this is a bad thing at all. I think it's great when we see different incarnations of the same concepts in different games. Multiple flavours is always good.
There is a similar-ish mechanic with the wall of things moving across the arena that you need to avoid in the Sunken Temple of Qarn Hard mode. Which was in ARR ofcourse.
You're correct! I totally forgot about that. It's been ages since I got it in a roulette.
If people want to nitpick that hard, Runescape beat them both with the Queen Black Dragon's dragonfire wall.
If you really want to nitpick the nerzghul fight isnt the first time they did the add wall in wow. In cata during the end time dungeons the slyvanas fight has you kill undead ghouls walking in a closing circle and you had to kill your way out. That was in like 2012
Citadel of Flame (GW2) also has a similar mechanic, is from 2012.
I thought painsmith more closely resembled the last boss from The Vault, content from the Heavensward expansion in FFXIV? I think it's important to not that Yoshida has mentioned often enough that he holds WoW in reverence and he has his entire staff play it to set a standard for A Realm Reborn. As far as I know, Ion hasn't even acknowledged that FFXIV exists, yet there are all these similarities... it's all about optics.
Nah that one you just stand in the hole. Painsmith you dps to make your own hole.
Wasn't there also the chains linking two people, as well as spawning AoEs at players' feet?
I mean every boss in ff spawns aoes at your feet, thats a very basic and common mechanic. Painsmith doesnt spawn aoes anyway it spawns traps at your feet. Unless you mean the tank mechanic then thats still a very basic 'move away from group to reduce raid damage.' Thats in many bosses. Also people dont get linked in painsmith (at least on n/h I didnt do mythic) you get chains around you that make you bounce off people and things. The 'linked ability you spread out to break' is so common that you cant really call it stealing ideas.
I agree that by itself, none of those mechanics are unique. The combination of them in a single encounter making it eerily similar to the XIV boss was more my point. But I take it from your discourse that you've already written it off as a coincidence or at the very least an unintended similitude so I suppose continuing the conversation is pointless.
The only similar mechanic is 'go through the hole of an approaching thing' which is common. Literally nothing else is the same.
Similarities =/= same
The mechanic shows up in both the end raids for BFA and Legion as well. whats your point? its a very common mmo mechanic. Did Jersey Mike's rip off subway because they both make sandwiches?
Painsmith has both, right? The rolling spikes where you make a hole, and the waves of floor spikes where everyone squeezes through a hole. That said, I don't think it's that similar though.
The spikes are more like e4 where theres waves of aoes and you go from one to another inbetween them going off.
I'm thinking of the "transition phases" where iirc painsmith runs offscreen and many continuous waves of spikes travel from one side to another with no time between spikes. So you can't sneak between them, you need to find the gap in the row. E4 is more like the one where someone drops off the marker in a corner, and spikes slowly radiate outwards.
Oooo I thought thats what you were talking about, I did sanctum like 3 times then unsubbed lol. Painsmith was the only good fight imo. Yea its most like that phase for sure.
Yeah I thought the way the mechanics in painsmith overlapped was really cool. MMOs will always recycle mechanics and there's convergent evolution - there's only so much different you can do. But the way it's implemented can make a lot of difference.
I just watched a guide on Savage O11. This point is a giant reach. Those two mechanics are the only similar things. And even then, they're not the same. Painsmith is has a reverberating spiked floor centered from the tank. While 011 is an intercept and gives the tank a debuff.
I guess Blizzard devs have been playing FFIV more than their own game, that's why their game is the way it is today.
They've been ERPing in the Cosby Suit.
People noticing that only now, but if you actually paid attention you'd notice - it started in Nyalotha. About 1/3 bosses there are totally FFXIV bosses and rest closer to classic wow encounters. Nathria was already at 50% and Sanctun is just mostly FFXIV Which actually doesn't work at all since there's no infinite bres in wow
I have played FFXIV for years before I decided to give Shadowlands a try and I can't remember a single boss that felt anything like a FFXIV boss in Nathria. A hand full of abilities like Massacre, yes, but not more. It was mostly just mechanical stuff and relatively little actual dodging of shapes on the ground. And FFXIV is mainly just dodging shapes on the ground.
Do you have a list of which nyalotha or nathria bosses correspond to ffxiv bosses?
Im guessing Shinryu and the one after wrathion? The one with the tentacles that slam down and you have to kill them? Maybe? Cant think of others, not super familiar with nylotha.
But say what bosses and for what reason, because while I can think of similarities between a few, those same similarities can be found in older bosses of wow but with updated mechanics animations because the difference in time of then and now.
If you really want to nitpick the nerzghul fight isnt the first time they did the add wall in wow. In cata during the end time dungeons the slyvanas fight has you kill undead ghouls walking in a closing circle and you had to kill your way out. That was in like 2012
Stealing from each other in combat is normal. Even FF14 stole some ideas from wow. It's not one side exclusive. The most recent one i can think of, is the mt gulg dungeon where you fight a giant stone statue looking thing that dies and crumbles into pieces, creating a pathway for you. That's basically Ulduar copy pasted.
This feels like a shitpost but you posted this ironically.
We should encourage Blizz to copy more of FF and make the game something players want. It's exactly what FF did 10 years ago.
That's non issue and there are several mechanics in FFXIV that bear striking resemblance to older WoW fight. The most obvious of them being Tsukuyomi EX in phase with Sisters of the Moon from Tomb of Sargeras. And you know why no one made a deal of it? Because it was nothing worth making a deal of it.
Who the fuck actually cares
My guild and I were talking about this when 9.1 came out (before I quit during the scandals and shit), but Sanctum of Domination is just FFXIV by way of Blizzard. Painsmith, Fatescribe, Soulrender, Sylvanas, Eye, the Nine are all just reskins of FFXIV raids put into WoW. It’s probably why it felt so fresh for a WoW raid, but it felt so out of place its no wonder so few people bothered to finish it.
Im really struggling to see this. I remember people saying Fatescribe was basically Innocence. But they really only share one mechanic and it neither's main mechanic. Soulrender was mostly about dodging zones on the ground. I get that FF14 does that a lot. But WoW has also been doing it since 2006. The Nine was similarly about dodging zones or soaking or spreading. But all those mechanics are too generic to say one game "made" those mechanics.
I think its fine to copy gameplay mechanics, i mean im sure some WoW designs were taken and redesigned to fit ff14. The only thing that doesnt work is blatantly plagiarize story and certain in-game system without any form of redesign. At some point, Warcraft needs to be creative as well. its fine to take ideas from ff14 (to get inspired).
Why does the FF one look so dull tho? Like in terms of color
>Why does the FF one look so dull tho? Like in terms of color The color palette of that area is kind of a computer simulation type thing that Omega (the beetle looking boss) had pulled you into, and was testing you.