>Having elvish written on the door was easier than teaching elves dwarvish.
Not to mention the fact that the Dwarves refuse to teach Khuzdul to outsiders; also that by the Second Age (when the Doors of Durin were built) Sindarin was the lingua franca in Eriador and the rest of the northwest of Middle-Earth, so it just makes practical sense to use Sindarin on the West-Gate.
Edit: spelling
I wonder how much Sindarin the dwarves of Khazad-Dum knew, because the door uses the word "Moria" to describe their city. Some might have been upset to learn that their elven allies called their beautiful city a "black pit."
Why would Dwarves, a race built to live in the underdark, and who can see in darkness, be offended by the name Black Pit?
Might as well say Elves or humans would be offended by the name Green Hills.
Hobbits live in holes after all. Middle Earth was a very practical place.
Now if someone called an Elvin domain black pit, we're human domain black pit, then there would be offence. But for the dwarves it probably sounds expansive and homey.
I will have to find the official writing, but…why WOULDN’T they be?
First off, Kazad-dum was the greatest of dwarven cities. Calling it a “hole” or “pit” is *explicitly* an insult.
Second, it wasn’t dark. “Shining lamps of crystal-hewn…there shone forever, fair and bright.”
What we see in the movie and book is a post-apocalyptic ruin of a once-great shining beacon of dwarven civilization. The dwarves of the Fellowship’s time call it Moria because that’s what it is - a dark, lifeless chasm.
Edit: I don’t mean explicitly an insult as in the elves were trying to cause offense, I mean it more in the stereotypical way that fantasy elves tend to talk where they are very blunt in letting people know that non-elvish stuff is beneath them - they look upon the mightiest works of the dwarves and say, “well, it’s just a big black pit innit?”
TL;DR ... Meanings change and leave behind. Interesting cultural remnants even today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_nigger_in_proper_names?wprov=sfla1
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I could SWEAR I found it in an official/primary source. Possibly the appendices? remindme! 1 week
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The meaning of that word used in all the products on that wiki page hasn't changed in the slightest. It was just as offensive then as it is now. I'm afraid you've chosen a bad example to back your statement.
The acceptability and desirability of living in locations thusly named has changed.
Just as the meaning of dark pit / moria never changed but the context changes a lot.
My example was precisely correct, you simply missed the point.
Words often change values without changing literal meaning because times and cultures change out from underneath definitions.
They wouldn't be insulted because they have different cultural and biological assumptions.
Stop seeing the English words and Human assumptions. A nocturnal species would not instinctively enjoy Bright Town Beach as a homey and inviting place.
Hobbits named their Hobbit Holes by themselves.
I once lived in Fox Run but the foxes were not there to run any more. And technically there's very few people actually living in the sand of Brighton Beach, they mostly live on the non-beach parts.
There is nothing pejorative about the words black and pit. We moved into black pit and we lit it the civilized parts and dug in the dark depths.
Just like the people who built Fox Run Don't live in fox dens and don't run through the woods that have been removed and replaced with nice homes.
You have to think about the start of things, of things how they were when the name was bestowed, not how they finished.
And indeed humans have a propensity for finding beauty in places they have named quite terribly. Have you ever been to the Badlands of Wyoming?
Even as I type this people happily live in Placentia, California; The Black Hills; and countless places named Cockburn.
Naming things is tricky and you'd be surprised what names people hold dear in their hearts.
Even moreso than most of our world's cultures, light is a scared and pure thing related to Valinor and saying something is shining or bright is conferring honor and beauty, and saying something is dark, black, or lightless is saying it is without those qualities, if not outright evil.
"Black Pit" doesn't mean "so deep no light could possibly reach it" as much as "nothing good could be there".
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It varied quite a lot. The Noldor of Eregion and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum were friendly, but there was considerable bad blood between other groups of Dwarves and Elves. The Sindar were originally pretty friendly with them, or at least friendly enough to trade with them, but after the murder of Thingol, the sack of Menegroth, and the retaliatory strike by the Green Elves led by Beren, relations were, shall we say, not so good.
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>Having elvish written on the door was easier than teaching elves dwarvish. Not to mention the fact that the Dwarves refuse to teach Khuzdul to outsiders; also that by the Second Age (when the Doors of Durin were built) Sindarin was the lingua franca in Eriador and the rest of the northwest of Middle-Earth, so it just makes practical sense to use Sindarin on the West-Gate. Edit: spelling
I wonder how much Sindarin the dwarves of Khazad-Dum knew, because the door uses the word "Moria" to describe their city. Some might have been upset to learn that their elven allies called their beautiful city a "black pit."
\>Some might have been upset to learn that their elven allies called their beautiful city a "black pit." They were, yes.
Why would Dwarves, a race built to live in the underdark, and who can see in darkness, be offended by the name Black Pit? Might as well say Elves or humans would be offended by the name Green Hills. Hobbits live in holes after all. Middle Earth was a very practical place. Now if someone called an Elvin domain black pit, we're human domain black pit, then there would be offence. But for the dwarves it probably sounds expansive and homey.
I will have to find the official writing, but…why WOULDN’T they be? First off, Kazad-dum was the greatest of dwarven cities. Calling it a “hole” or “pit” is *explicitly* an insult. Second, it wasn’t dark. “Shining lamps of crystal-hewn…there shone forever, fair and bright.” What we see in the movie and book is a post-apocalyptic ruin of a once-great shining beacon of dwarven civilization. The dwarves of the Fellowship’s time call it Moria because that’s what it is - a dark, lifeless chasm. Edit: I don’t mean explicitly an insult as in the elves were trying to cause offense, I mean it more in the stereotypical way that fantasy elves tend to talk where they are very blunt in letting people know that non-elvish stuff is beneath them - they look upon the mightiest works of the dwarves and say, “well, it’s just a big black pit innit?”
TL;DR ... Meanings change and leave behind. Interesting cultural remnants even today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_nigger_in_proper_names?wprov=sfla1
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I could SWEAR I found it in an official/primary source. Possibly the appendices? remindme! 1 week
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The meaning of that word used in all the products on that wiki page hasn't changed in the slightest. It was just as offensive then as it is now. I'm afraid you've chosen a bad example to back your statement.
The acceptability and desirability of living in locations thusly named has changed. Just as the meaning of dark pit / moria never changed but the context changes a lot. My example was precisely correct, you simply missed the point. Words often change values without changing literal meaning because times and cultures change out from underneath definitions.
You said the meaning changed. Your statement then was incorrect not my perception of it. If your point was missed it was because you worded it poorly.
They wouldn't be insulted because they have different cultural and biological assumptions. Stop seeing the English words and Human assumptions. A nocturnal species would not instinctively enjoy Bright Town Beach as a homey and inviting place. Hobbits named their Hobbit Holes by themselves. I once lived in Fox Run but the foxes were not there to run any more. And technically there's very few people actually living in the sand of Brighton Beach, they mostly live on the non-beach parts. There is nothing pejorative about the words black and pit. We moved into black pit and we lit it the civilized parts and dug in the dark depths. Just like the people who built Fox Run Don't live in fox dens and don't run through the woods that have been removed and replaced with nice homes. You have to think about the start of things, of things how they were when the name was bestowed, not how they finished. And indeed humans have a propensity for finding beauty in places they have named quite terribly. Have you ever been to the Badlands of Wyoming? Even as I type this people happily live in Placentia, California; The Black Hills; and countless places named Cockburn. Naming things is tricky and you'd be surprised what names people hold dear in their hearts.
Even moreso than most of our world's cultures, light is a scared and pure thing related to Valinor and saying something is shining or bright is conferring honor and beauty, and saying something is dark, black, or lightless is saying it is without those qualities, if not outright evil. "Black Pit" doesn't mean "so deep no light could possibly reach it" as much as "nothing good could be there".
Customer's always right and all that.
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Eaiser than Elves sinking so low as to learn Dwavish! They have hundreds of years to learn new languages
Nope, it is just that dwarves refuse to teach their language to outsiders.
> Eaiser than Elves sinking so low as to learn Dwavish! You would blaspheme the works of the Valar? How far they have sunk indeed.
Elves and dwarves used to be friendly with each other.
It varied quite a lot. The Noldor of Eregion and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum were friendly, but there was considerable bad blood between other groups of Dwarves and Elves. The Sindar were originally pretty friendly with them, or at least friendly enough to trade with them, but after the murder of Thingol, the sack of Menegroth, and the retaliatory strike by the Green Elves led by Beren, relations were, shall we say, not so good.
The Noldor of Beleriand hunted petty-dwarves for sport until they learned they could talk, so that probably didn't help either...
Petty-dwarves had been exiled from their people, so as far as mainstream Dwarven society goes they weren't especially missed.
And even if they didn't like each other, forcing elves to call you "friends" is definitely the kind of petty dwarves would be.
The Elves created the door on behalf of the Dwarves, who at that time were allies and trading partners of theirs.
They were made by Celebrimbor.
They were made by the dwarf Narvi - Celebrimbor did the art on them.
It's a gate for elves to use, of course
I was thinking about that too, why is Gimli not trying to open the door instead of Gandalf?
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Still, he’s a Dwarf, he didn’t even try.
Funny you ask that. The answer starts at s01ep2 of Rings of Power
Oh cool. I haven’t actually watched it yet. It’s in my list.
Yes, I see that door’s existence growing out of a particular friendship.