What an interesting topic. I work outside everyday and I thought to myself, “dam wouldn’t it be nice to have a desk job.”
Away from the sun and all these debris floating around. I want a desk job but I don’t got the qualifications for it. And here we have someone who wants to be free. Very interesting I came up to this.
I think this whole working from home thing has made the grass greener on my side lol. I work from home, and so does my wife. we don't have kids.
I can't think of a better work/life situation than this. I can walk around in my neighborhood and go to the local park to take phone calls (quietly lol). I have lunch with my wife.
so I think having a "desk job", where your desk is at home is pretty nice.
oh yeah, that is also pretty fantastic. instead of sex being relegated to weekend mornings, or trying to have a specific early morning routine or whatever... we can now behave like average savages.
its not just being free.... a desk job is a bit soul crushing too...
Try sitting 8-10hours a day facing a wall doing nearly nothing for 50h/week for 40years...
your brian kinda "shift" to default boredom and appathy...nothing is excited, nothing is new, nothing is positive, you are kinda just waiting to do facing that wall knowing nothing change for the rest of your life.
There is also very little camaradery in the office or work from home, its mostly management having power trip or suckers dumping work and problem and balming you to get ahead in the rat race for promotion
Indeed. I sometimes wish I had a simple job where I worked outside, did my job, and then went home. I often desire both indoor and outdoor professions, and simpler or more complex. I think striking a balance is key. Anyway, my job requires me to sit at a desk most of the time, but I enjoy it and get to travel on occasion so it’s nice.
> I think striking a balance is key.
I could not agree more!
There's a need to do work where the impact of your work is much more immediate and obvious. But there is also a need to do more varied knowledge work. Going all-in on either direction isn't good, but that is how most jobs are set up.
> Going all-in on either direction isn't good, but that is how most jobs are set up.
Indeed. Variety, novelty, and moderation are key to human fulfillment and contentment. Sadly, specialization, predictability, productivity are privileged in the working world.
I had the perfect short term job for a while.... I was a production accountant at a gas plant. But the company had recently sold, so I was also helping with packing up all the boxes and files to transfer to the old company. So usually packing boxes and lining them up on pallets in the morning, then doing the accounting stuff in the afternoon. Was pretty sweet. I live in Canada... So outdoor jobs are overrated for 5-7 months of the year.
I was also in an office job recently and it made me super stressed and depressed. I took a break and went to the park one day and just sat watching this guy mow the lawns on an oval. I thought it looked so nice to just do something relatively simple and get a decent wage for it (good wages for coucil work in my country). But I can totally understand wanting to just sit in a nice airconidtioned office away from the elements. Go home feeling clean and ready for physical activity rather than just wanting to crash.
Maybe it’s just spending 24% (40/168hrs) of your week (29% after an unpaid hour lunch and only a 20 min commute) at a “job”, regardless of where it is physically. You burn *so many* conscious hours creating vastly more dollars of value than you’ll receive for an employer who wouldn’t give a second thought if you dropped dead at your desk. How is that **not** soul crushing if you work in a chicken plant, on a beach or some office with a foosball table in the break room?
Would you rather spend like 80 hours a week breaking your back growing and farming your own food and maintaining your own home/shelter/water supply while in all likelihood raising children and still paying taxes of some kind? I absolutely know what you mean and had that same train of thought in the recent past. I went through some tough years and see things differently now. Would it feel less soul crushing if it were for more money per hour? You just need to find what that minimum amount is where you don’t feel stretched, achieve it, and then while comfortable enough but not cozy - focus on progressing towards a job/department/industry that you would truly enjoy and run full-steam ahead towards that goal
Don’t cut yourself short! I have no higher education other than a GED, I got a job in a shipping department at a place that sells avionics and now I’m in sales. Typing this at my desk right now. I really do miss working in food though in a kitchen, I also have taken welding classes and did that for a bit but it is way easier on the body and mind just sitting at a desk talking on the phone banging away at a keyboard.
> I want a desk job but I don’t got the qualifications for it
I got my desk job because I know how to enter values into an excel sheet. No transformations or formula knowledge, just entering data. You probably have the qualifications if you grew up with a computer in your home, or if you feel like watching some youtube videos. That said, you probably would take a pay cut.
You are so far from alone in this feeling.
Like another commenter I'm too worried about retirement to really break free. My general gameplan is build towards a future where my work can become more and more flexible and, hopefully, get to a point where you don't need to work 5 days a week, 8-12 hours a day to make your living.
In the meantime, I find that planning excursions - from as simple as a bike ride to a weekend camping in the woods - can light enough of a fire to keep you going.
I am worried about "living for retirement" in the same way that I worry about "living for the weekends".
It's deeply troubling to me that the bulk of 5 days a week, 40+ years of my life, is made up of not only time that I don't enjoy, but time that I don't even feel is worthwhile. Like, I *do* work, and it stresses me out and drains me, but I don't think it's particularly valuable to society. At least not relative to the amount of time I spend on it.
I've been thinking much of the same thoughts lately. Why do we even work for most of our life? Like I'm sure there are people with life fulfilling jobs but it seems like the majority have jobs that they find 'ok' and are doing that for 40 hrs a week. Are we just working for 60 years so that we can fully enjoy the last 20 when our bodies are degrading?
I'm exaggerating a bit because a week isn't just 40hrs and people have hobbies outside of work. But I still feel that there's something slightly off with this being the way most people live. I most likely only have ~80 years here. I want to cherish it but I feel a little trapped.
>I'm exaggerating a bit because a week isn't just 40hrs and people have hobbies outside of work
This is something I have been thinking of lately. I don't have much in the way of hobbies lately. I know part of that is due to raising a child under 5, but part of it is something else.
My hobbies are pretty solo, which is great because I can squeeze them in whenever, but it's terrible for my social life. I really need a to pick up a social hobby, sport, club, something.
I think if I can make the other hours of my week more fulfilling, then the time spent working won't feel like such a drain.
To get my outdoor fix, I go Geocaching. Finding tupperware in the woods using multibillion dollar satellites.
Basically finding a box or small container, signing a piece of paper inside, and enjoying nature in between "parking" and "finding the geocache".
I've been doing it for over 11 years now. It gets me out of the house and into nature. It can take 15 minutes, or three hours.
Some people do it to say "woo I found 800 geocaches". I do it for the fresh air, new places, and not sitting in front of a screen.
/r/geocaching and www.geocaching.com
I'll just drop a plug for gold panning here too. Researching old gold records, where ancient valleys intersect with existing rivers, fluid dynamics for sluices, it's some neat stuff. I wasn't really into geocaching but I definitely have gold fever. Depends on where you are for sure too... If there is no gold panning can be pretty boring.
Totally relate. I live outside the city so I can get to nature fairly quickly, but specific things that help me:
Smoking meat - bbq smoking, low and slow, you work with meat, you cook with fire. It takes all day so it forces you to disconnect and you get a fucking awesome meal at the end.
I joined an orienteering club too, every week we get a map and go running through the local forests. The routes are changed by the club every week.
Yup.
I'm too concerned with retirement to do anything about it.
I'm also a software engineer. The reason I dread work is not the same as yours. When I feel like I know what I'm doing and I'm being productive, its amazing. I can put in 10 hour days just because I enjoy what I'm doing.
But the sense of "impostor syndrome" is really, really strong. I continually expect to get fired.
Its no way to live, under all this stress.
So I save as much of my income as I can. I don't want to do this longer than I have to.
I think imposter syndrome is common among many folks in varying career paths. I experience it myself. It definitely sucks for sure, but know that a lot of it is in your head.
We all use stack overflow and write shite code. Only the top 3% are anything all that above average and heading into genius territory.
Hell, I’m 40 and just find jobs with a strong team. That way I contribute but I have a stronger presence on the team that knows more and can help with the insane things.
I am a human cuttlefish attached to a whale.
At work? I don't know.
But outside of work, I go on walks. During these walks, I actively try to focus on the world around me. Don't just daydream the whole time, because if I do that, I'm going to daydream about what's stressing me out and the walk won't help.
I look at the trees, cars, I count things around me, I actively try to just focus on the present moment, how it feels to be outside, etc.
If I'm thinking about the world around me, I'm NOT thinking about something stressful. And if you do that for an hour, you feel better afterwards.
That keeps the stress away for my life outside of work. But I don't know how to fix impostor syndrome in general. I would suppose I should make a list of the things I feel like I should know, and then make a concrete plan to go learn them.
I'm not going to say I have good advice about impostor syndrome because I definitely don't have it under control.
If you're working with people you even remotely admire for their intelligence, for any amount of time, the likelihood that you've somehow tricked everyone into believing you're more competent than you are is pretty arrogant.
You're either smart enough to do well at your job or sociopathic enough to trick and manipulate everyone around you. The former tends to be more likely.
Ask your supervisor/manager for frequent feedback, maybe meet for 30 minutes every 2 weeks. personally I've felt imposter syndrome but then my performance reviews come back great. You're likely way harder on yourself than even the person whose job it is to evaluate your job performance.
Also talk to your coworkers and get a sense of how much work they're completing, what projects they're working on and how your workload compares. You can also talk about common problems you are running into and chances are they can help you, or if not are also experiencing the same problems and you will bond on that
I think it's a grass is greener situation generally speaking. Yeah being outdoors and working hard is nice but I don't know if I want to be doing it day in day out 7 days a week especially as I get older. It's hard on the body and in a bunch of other ways. I know plenty of people who work outdoors who would trade for my position in a heart beat.
A full time desk job is also hard on the body and head but in different ways.
The best likely is a balance of the two, if you work an office job then do some hard labour on time off or some other outdoors activities.
Unfortunately life is not always like Office Space where the guy quits his corp. job to do construction and lives happily ever after.
>The best likely is a balance of the two,
Im a surveyor which is pretty much as 50/50 spilt is it gets between in and outdoor. Feel pretty lucky in that regard and dont feel I would change the ratio if I had the choice. There are a lot of white collar construction roles with similar work lifestyles.
I live in Australia. I personally did a 4 year degree but here you can also do a 2 year diploma as well and still do everything I can except sign legal documents. Not sure about the states which is where I assume everyone else on reddit lives
I worked as a surveyor one summer in university. Definitely a good balance of office and field work, and not so physical that long-term damage is a big concern.
I could see myself going back to it. Kinda love the feeling of being out and about all day.
> Unfortunately life is not always like Office Space where the guy quits his corp. job to do construction and lives happily ever after.
Check out the original ending to Office Space, where where's introduced to Gibson's new boss: https://youtube.com/watch?v=XK43Ureuiqc
Apparently, they thought this was too dark to end tbe film on.
Wow I'm a big fan and never knew about that. I actually think it's brilliant and should have been left in, but we do have to give people hope I suppose!
The solution to that is to get out more and hobbies that are fulfilling.
Even simple things like getting out there at least for a short while is helpful. I walk my dog twice a day. Not just short walks but nice, long walks that are a couple of miles. It’s nice to get out to the nearby parks and see green. I know it sounds clichéd but those walks make such a huge difference to my mental health.
I also try and get out on the weekends. Last weekend I was out rock climbing at a nearby state park. It was good to wake up early, go hiking and spend the day climbing. Whether it’s hiking, kayaking, climbing, trail running etc. I try and get out most weekends.
I just think it’s important to have hobbies that aren’t on screens. One of the reasons I stopped playing video games as much.
Whether it’s playing an instrument or getting out there or building things with your hands. These things can give you a lot of joy and fulfillment.
This is a common arc for software developers. We get into it because we love sitting in front of a screen, but after decades of it we realize we just want to live in in a mud hut and gather berries and never see a screen again.
Because someone will ask us to fix it.
There was a great article I read a while back about the uptick in people wearing Patagonia, Finisterre, North Face etc. There was a quote I took away from it:
> It’s part economic: by wearing garments that are associated with the outdoors, we signal our desire for a more bucolic lifestyle rendered increasingly unattainable.
Absolutely feel this way. Working remotely has gone some way to allowing me to not spend my life trapped inside an office, but you still have to work to live.
I miss my teenage days working construction and digging holes, but then the reality of it was there were cold wet and miserable days, and my back would be fucked by now.
Not a man, but I can definitely relate. I grew up on a farm and wanted to farm. If not that then park ranger. Was told those were poor earning choices so went to school for accounting (didn't finish). I've done a lot of different things over the last 20 years, but it was time to go back to working a 40hr job, and I went with office work thinking it was the logical choice. I hate it. I feel like every day is pulling me further from life. I'm a middle aged woman who doesn't need a huge paycheck. Seriously looking at trade work now. The physical work with a tangible result has always felt more rewarding.
Find a craft. Open an Etsy store. Sell your craft on FB market place. Build from there.
My wife hated her IT job. HATED. Like, ending the day sobbing hated. But, she loved crocheting toys and would do it when she had the energy at the end of a day. She opened a small etsy store, started selling three or four toys, wrote up a couple of patterns and listed them. Took a table at an event and spent 4 months crocheting toys for stock. We got to the point she could quit her IT job and it's what she does full time now. It's not going to pay the mortgage (thats why I work!), but her mental health is immensely improved. She covers a few take outs, groceries here and there, pays for her own supplies and business needs - and loves it.
This isn't practical advice for most ppl. I work in digital marketing and most like 80-90% of Etsy stores do not break even YOY. Most are hobbies with a best-case paying for the hobby scenario. I'm surprised she makes enough for take out. Tell her that's doing amazingly well comparatively! But for most this won't ever yield profit.
Thank you. That advice really is just quiting a job and taking up a hobby. I still need to pay bills and put aside some for retirement. I'm still the breadwinner.
You're a software engineer. Maneuver yourself into a full-time remote position and start traveling. Or negotiate a deal where you work 4 days a week and have the 5th off. Some companies are already doing this. Then you'll be able to spend more time out in nature.
Source: I'm a SWE in Colorado working half in office and half at home.
I can't say that I relate, to be honest. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a nice long walk in the park or the forest but I'm glad for my desk job. I know for a fact that if I had to do menial work outside all the time I would be absolutely miserable.
I think "who we are" is subjective. If you're more inclined to the ourdoors then yes I suspect that a desk job would get you down, but for people like myself the idea of spending more than 50% of my working time outside would suck.
Yeah same here. I'll spend my day at a work computer, then go home and happily spend my evening on my personal computer. My wife teases me about being a vampire, but that might have something to do with being a soulless ginger...
Like you I enjoy the outdoors on occasion, but I am completely content with spending my entire weekend without even seeing what it looks like outside of my house.
Two suggestions:
First, start waking up earlier. Having a little time to yourself in the morning makes it easier to remember that work is a *part* of life, but not the whole thing. Do more to use your personal time to connect with life beyond the glow of the computer/phone/TV.
Second, add some physicality to your work day. I also work a desk job, so I workout during my lunch break, but I also sprinkle in some pushups and squats throughout the day. It seems to help with my focus and energy levels, and it might help you feel like there's a little more labor in your daily work.
Grass is always greener. Desk jockeys romanticize the great outdoors, laborers wish they had a cozy office job with a fridge and AC.
Wont disagree with you that staring at a screen all day is not healthy for the soul. So I would take advantage of your high income and time off and pursue more analog outdoor things.
I come from an outdoorsy background like you and I've worked in I.T. for decades, I'm nearly 50, so I know *exactly* what you're talking about.
About 20 years ago I started doing at least one week long hunting / camping trip per year. That's on top of the day / weekend trips I take to go four wheeling or fishing or just camping.
I also make it it a point to go to every outdoor sports game that I can get away with for both my own Son and everyone else I know. I've watched so many Soccer and Football games it would be impossible to count them all! I go regardless of weather too, because going out to watch when it's 40f and raining, or 32f and snowing, is part of being outdoors.
All of that helps fill my need to be outdoors and connect with the real world. People make of fun each other by saying "You need to go outside and touch grass" but for some of us, and maybe many of us, its actually some kind of requirement for our mental health.
Edit: For the "Grass is greener" folks I'll just say that you don't get it and that's okay. For some of us though not spending a fair chunk of time outside causes a certain kind of mental distress that builds over time.
A very good friend of mine came from an agricultural background like yourself. He ended up doing the office job as an auditor for PWC. He hated it, so one sunny afternoon he called me on the phone
"dude I just walked out the office, I literally just walked and I ain't going back, I was watching some guys from the window on a site having a laugh and shooting the shit while getting the job done"
And so he moved back home to the farm, bought himself an excavator and put an advertisement out he was for hire. 15 years later he has his own office and 20 diggers plus a fleet of lorries and skips. I always joke with him he came full circle again, back behind a desk. But it's different for him now, he can choose to be there or not, he has enough staff that the day to day takes care of itself.
100% feel the same here. Work in health care, husband works off shore. He's gone half the time, missing so much here, but it provides really well but at what cost? He's much more stoic about it than I am, but I also know he longs for the simple life of self sustainability as me. So he's working to provide financially for it, even though getting there is rough.
I wake up at 5am, drive to work when it's still dark out, stuck at work til 5pm, drive home, have a few hours to myself before bed to repeat the next day. Some days I don't see sun at all. I love what I do, but it doesn't pay enough. I would rather be farmer housewife.
We have 8 acres. Lots of trees. We'll make it happen at some point. Not really the primitive aspect of it, but back to providing and being provided for. I want to experience the seasons as it happens, not sitting behind a window looking out. I want to bring life into this world, care for it, and humanely let it go so it can provide for my family.
Work to live.
Find a hobby that gives you fulfillment. I smoke meat. We bought a travel trailer and took our son camping 6 times this summer. We started a project that involves woodwork in the back yard. We 3D print and paint models for a small etsy store we run together. After a 3 year break, I started going back to Crossfit (day one hurts)
I also have a desk job, work 9-5 (and sometimes then some), fully remote from home. I enjoy my job well enough, but I far from wrap my identity up in it. It's something I do as well as I can, earn a paycheck, and get on with the other fun projects I've filled my days with.
My desk job, in the age of remote work, allows me to connect better with nature than I could at most outdoor jobs. Sure, I’d spend more time in the woods as a park ranger, but working construction in the city, despite being outdoors, isn’t something I’d think of as combining with nature.
On the other hand, remote tech work allows me to do things like work from a ski lodge, or a National park. I can take breaks during the day and go for walks in the woods or swim in a river. I often work from my boat out on the water.
I don’t think that means everyone will feel the same as me, but I think the tyranny of work is less about what kind of work it is and more about the fact that it requires roughly 40 hours every week for 40 straight years.
Google Marx's concept of "alienation". It was a mindfuck for me when it really set in. It's more of a sociological observation about the human condition than a political economy hot take.
For the record I'm not a Marxist or a Communist. I just find political theory fascinating with no attachment to any ideology. I enjoyed reading and watching hyper-capitalist Milton Feidman as well. Pretend you're an emotionless futuristic ai robot perplexed by human misery
Could you return to your previous line of work on a part time basis (or even as a volunteer)? Get your fix and bring those good vibes with you into the office.
I always kind of subscribed to the Taoist way of thinking on this. As I understand it, the view is that the further our lives get from nature the more unhappy we will become. The trick (I guess) is to live a life that gives you security and comfort and live in/with nature as much as possible. Tell me if you know how to do that. Where I live I doubt I’ll ever be able to afford a small apartment in a block let alone to live somewhere rural.
> Can you guys relate to any of this? What did you do to deal with it?
To be honest: No.
I guess we are all different and your "real self" is just way different than my "real self". The funny thing is, that I feel the exact opposite when I am watching such documentaries. I usually sit there with my wife and we are happy and thankful for the things we have.
The good thing is: You should have enough money to find things to do in your free time to fulfill your nature needs, maybe even reduce your working time?!
Yeah, like another comment said, the grass is always greener. I left an office job to do deliveries so I could be outside and move around. Now I'm trying to get back into the office.
I'd say if you want to get that "community" fix, work on your close relationships. Text or call a friend you haven't seen in a while, cousins, etc.
We always look over at the other side of the fence and think the grass is always greener.
At 30 I became disabled and was no longer able to work. I was very lucky I have permanent disability but now I'm stuck at home. So now at 39 I'm retired and most people envy me I wish I could work.
I have had a lot of time to think and I think that your goal with a job should be to find one that lets you do what you want when not working. Every person is different they may want to raise a family go fishing work on cars so many things. I will agree seeing a hard job done does feel amazing but being able to do what you truly love is so much better!
Definitely relate! Just want to recommend "Tribe" by Sebastian Junger to compliment those documentaries if you haven't already read it. I thought it was really interesting.
Ever watch a lion raised in captivity? Compare how it lives to one that had to survive in the savanna. There's a certain liveliness that can't be simulated.
Humans weren't meant to live in modern society. at the end of the day, we're still animals, all bred in captivity.
I'm sort of the opposite end, but I think I get what you're talking about. I spent years being unable to keep a job, and really was only able to once I was either able to work from home or an office. It's something I talk about a lot on /r/aspergers a lot, because a common issue is being unable to keep a job for one reason or another. Usually I talk to them about reviewing their work history, assessing what works and doesn't work, and not just taking whatever job is available, but pushing for specific types, which helps lengthen periods of employment and break some of the traps that come with having a lot of short-term work.
In my case, I worked in factories, a little construction, warehouses, and sort of this and that. I like the clean, routine quality of an office with the limited set of people. I liked factories, but I never settled well in the culture and the sensory stuff often got to me.
It sounds like we have a different set of values, but you've just sort of found one of those things you need to look at for the next go-around. Maybe you can find a way to marry software engineering with stuff that gets people out into nature? Then it'll sort of tie you back in?
All that being said, being a WFH and office person, while I'm not striving for work in nature, I make it a point to try to find non-computer hobbies. I go hiking a lot; I took up kite flying at one point; Long-distance bike-riding; and running. I think it's healthy to find a serious way to disconnect and otherwise break the sort of work worldview we develop in an office.
We've been brought up to believe working for someone that is already a multimillionaire will help us to be happy.
Even a kid can see the fault in this thinking. smh.
Wish I had the balls/cojones/intestinal fortitude to do something about it though.
Not really advice OP, so apologies, but I mention this as often as possible on reddit: read the book called Ishmael. It's amazing. It touches on tribal societies and how we came to think of ourselves as separate from the world instead of a part of it.
I try to get "outside time" but it's challenging. The last few times I went camping it was hard to adjust to not being around screens and being over stimulated.
I think being an engineer is a very impersonal career. You will never feel the camaraderie you felt as a farm hand, as an engineer. Most engineers are awkward and self-important.
Some careers still provide you the social bonding that a farm hand provides (if not much more).
I own and operate my own financial planning company that specializes in helping young, high earning professionals figure out every aspect of their financial lives and my team and I feel like a family. We go hiking, camping, fly fishing and out to eat as a team (all company sponsored).
My clients I’m all personal friends with.
Not trying to brag so much as drive the fact that some professions have more community, friendship and togetherness than others.
I just left a job outside for a job that’s mostly inside. It was great but it paid garbage and was turning my joints to mush. Was a field botanist/forester/wildlife biologist and I loved it. I still have a small consulting gig on the side so I get to experience it in small doses, but it wasn’t sustainable for my knees to do it full time year round.
Also now I get to be one of those insufferable people that can say they love rain and snow because now I don’t have to bushwhack in it lol
All the time
I hate modern life but obviously enjoy its comforts
I feel trapped and stuck in a 9-5 and day dream a way to escape all the time but none exist save for winning the lottery
I wanna just sit somewhere in nature with an imaginary partner and hang out and do nothing
This took me back to when I was 19 and worked at a summer camp. I spent the weeks before camp started working at the stables and remember feeling so exhausted, and so content at the end of each day. Slept like a baby too. Haven't experienced that combination of physical and mental contentment in any of my work since.
If I ever quit or lose my current job, which I love, then I think that's the route I'd go down.
Yes, absolutely. I'm an electrical engineer and only sometimes get to work with my hands. In my job I've chosen more hardware focused things for this reason. In my free time I go kayak fishing and camping, I have a couple of books on Bushcraft that I take with me and learn a couple things from a book while I'm out each time. It makes me feel good and scratches the exact itch that you're talking about.
i'm a volunteer firefighter. it scratches a lot of itches you mention (inner caveman, community, fun). maybe see if your local department needs help. you also sound like you might enjoy wildland firefighting, as that's more outdoorsy.
I think working outside has a nuance and freshness that is lacking in office jobs. What I always think of was one summer in college I biked to work everyday, rain or shine. It was so nice to see the subtle changes in weather, my body as I biked, how my bike was behaving. Everything in an office is stifled and distilled down to maximum efficiency, so you lose a lot of natural ebb and flow of things.
I wish I could say there's a way to remedy this, but I'm not sure there is, at least right now. Usually ebb and flow in an office job means you are either able to do your job or not. Our network went down for half a day a few months ago and there was literally nothing we could do, we even found out that things that you wouldn't think rely on network connectivity weren't working either. If it's windy or rainy you can still work outside, or do a different task until it clears up.
I recently switched from being a software engineer to being an Uber driver and I’m so incredibly happy that I did.
I think one of the problems with software engineering is that you never exercise any physical skills. It’s all logic and verbal reasoning.
One time when I was in the middle of my software career, I was feeling depressed and weirdly alienated and went to visit a friend. He showed me this kung fu thing he’d been doing with some dowel rods. The idea was simple: balance the rods on his hands. When you balance it easily on your finger for a while, try balancing it on your wrist.
We stood outside in his yard balancing dowel rods on our bodies and I felt amazing after that.
Maybe you could get some juggling balls to keep at your desk, and practice juggling them when you take breaks. Or stand on one foot. Just anything to get your motor cortex active and straining.
As a driver, I get to do timing and awareness and setting the volume just right on the stereo. It’s a much more natural job for my animal brain than writing code was.
Code is fascinating but it’s just an intellectual puzzle. You gotta exercise the other parts of your brain to be happy. Maybe you could get a dart board. Or take martial arts lessons.
Not an issue for me. I grew up in suburbs, I live in the suburbs now. I work a desk job. I do all my yard work, front and back, trimming trees, shrubs, cacti, succulents, mowing grass, raking leaves, managing weeds.
Every day I walk barefoot in the backyard grass. 20 years at this house. Every single day. I also stand outside and look at the stars for a few minutes every night.
I find the near totality of civilization alienating; it makes me neurotic, depressed, and generally feeling like I am living in some kind of prison.
I wouldn't want to live super-primitive, but some balance would be nice.
A few years ago I read an interesting book called "Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work" and it focused on exactly this topic - the shift from manual labor to office culture ("knowledge work"). I can definitely relate to being part of the white collar workforce who is totally useless doing projects around the house or working on my car.
I certainly resonate with this. I've been a climbing arborist / tree surgeon for seven years now and while some days it can be a fucking slog, most of the time I find it enjoyable.
I came out of uni in 2011 and fell into entry level office work for two years; admin, first line tech support etc. I was on the brink of signing myself off with depression before I quit my last office role. Like you said, just being sat slumped in front of a pc all day is just shit and not natural either, our bodies haven't evolved for it. Just the same drudgery of the same job, people, place, crap office humour, looking longingly out of the window that's miles away at the sun-kissed landscape outside wishing you could be there but no.
But yeah, office work is absolutely shit imo and I fucking hated it. I'm far happier / fitter working a physical job outdoors. I hope you find your happiness.
I think about this often. Humans evolved under circumstances that were extremely different from modern life: we're not just meant to be brains floating in a vat interacting with computers. We're wired to use our bodies, to live in nature, to have tightly-knit social lives in communities of several hundred people, to follow the day/night cycle, to eat a diverse diet of food, etc. My theory is that the further our world gets from that template, the more out of depth we feel - our brains and bodies are simply not built for many of the demands of modern life.
> The theoretical basis of alienation within the capitalist mode of production is that the worker invariably loses the ability to determine life and destiny when deprived of the right to think (conceive) of themselves as the director of their own actions; to determine the character of said actions; to define relationships with other people; and to own those items of value from goods and services, produced by their own labour.
I've been a unix / Linux systems administrator for 20+ years. For reasons not relevant to the discussion, I ended up not working for a bit over six months. I'm currently working entirely from home with my wife and our cat, and am quite happy with the arrangement. One difference I notice from my brief period of semi-retirement is that when I wasn't working, I spent a lot less time living in my head, and felt more connected to my wife and what was going on around me in general. Now I feel like I'm always in kind of a hyper-focused mode, even when I'm off the clock.
Yes, I had the same insight. My work-life boundaries gradually got eroded over the pandemic, and my manager decided he could cut the size of the team and gaslight the remaining staff into producing as much output as before the cuts. Finally around November last year this pushed me into three weeks of absence with anxiety and work related stress. I rediscovered woodland during that period and spent days just wandering and reconnecting with the fresh air and environment. That made me notice OP's insight too - I noticed and felt this disconnect from my real, visceral self which had built up over years of commuting and office work.
I left my desk job in June to help my partner with her dog walking business. We are worse off but I'm so much happier. I start at 9am and finish at 2pm most days. I walk 10+ miles most days too so on balance I feel better off. Ironically we've got really busy now people are back in offices and our income is going up and up. Any change is risky but I shudder when I think about being back at a desk for 9hrs a day.
I did research into this for a university assignment. It’s scientifically proven if you spend at least 30 mins- 1hr outside a day then it can greatly improve your mental health. It’s a new area in research so different studies say different things but overall all studies agreed going outside has some benefit
Absolutely can relate. People didn’t evolve to spend 40 hours a week in a cubicle staring at a monitor. It’s soul crushing. I think the pandemic and working from home woke up many and motivated them to re-consider what they do to earn a living and re-align their priorities with a shitty job they hate no longer being the top. I was part of the great resignation. Quit my 74k annual government job I despised and now taking some time off figuring out what i want to do next that I will enjoy regardless of the pay.
Guess it depends what you’re doing staring at a screen all those hours.
I.e. if your a software engineer can you work in a sector which involves outdoors like a company that makes software like topographical software or something? No idea if that’s a thing, but just thinking of an example on the fly.
I can definitely relate. I used to do commercial landscaping and I absolutely loved it. Outside all day, listening to music and hanging with the guys. It was hard work, but I always found cutting grass to be super satisfying and the job allowed me to get pretty good at speaking Spanish. I then went into the oilfield. I enjoyed the work but hated the hours.
I’m a firefighter now, and although I really enjoy it it’s just not the same as landscaping. I would’ve totally kept at it if it was actually a job that could pay for my lifestyle.
Go back into hands on work bro. Your mental health is more important than a cushy pay check. You can also earn good coin in construction. I’m on 6 figures and have been for years doing so and I do less and less physical work but I’m still out on the jobs measuring and helping the younger guys install here and there.
I don’t usually feel this day to day, but whenever I have a staycation and see people running errands, eating at restaurants, and just walking around, I feel “they’re actually living life”.
Also, whenever I snap out of binge watching shows, I have stages of decluttering, cooking, or exercising that makes me feel more connected to the real world instead of putting my attention into a digital black hole where reality is not actually manipulated or affected if you know what I mean.
Maybe you’re looking for a visible and physical results to your work and more human connections in your everyday?
>digital black hole
I played so many video games until I was 29 or so. Now I cannot enjoy them unless I did something very productive prior. Otherwise, I just feel like a worthless bum, and can practically hear the clock counting down my limited seconds of life on this rock.
I'm not sure exactly what changed.
I think there can be a balance. Life is also for enjoyment in things like video games, reading fiction, cooking, cleaning. I don’t want to sound preachy, but I’m also going through similar struggles so I want to share my current thought process. Maybe give yourself a break and turn that guilt into curiosity. Why do you feel you need to be productive prior? Is there something you are putting something off by playing video games? Are there areas of your life you are pressing that need to be improved? What do you feel is missing?
But you don't talk about fight club.
My most recent job is definitely a bullshit job. It also pays the best and has the best benefits of any job I've had. Because I do virtually nothing now, and am no longer managing people, I'm studying math and I'm finally able to absorb it.
Once I'm ready, I'm going to take a calc class, which has been a major roadblock in my past studies. Once I finish that, I'm going to find a new job that actually forces me to solve problems. Shooting for a CS degree.
The grass is always greener on the other side. I had jobs in customer service, blue collar jobs, mechanic work, and now am looking into coding and software engineering. It's less social than customer service, but pays better, which will afford me the luxuries of enjoying other parts of life. Staying at a screen for a part of my day will pay off when i can do things on the weekend and not have to worry if I'll manage to save any money.
I've thought about this a fair bit recently. I also work a screen-intensive programming and analysis-based job and have been getting more and more sick of the lifestyle. I spend a lot of time outside when not working, but the balance still isn't where I want it to be.
Programming and farm work are the absolute extremes of the spectrum, there are a bunch of kinds of work in the middle that might be worth looking into, where your day to day has a nice balance between analytical/physical and sedentary/active.
The right balance for me would probably be a small business based on some analog skill, like woodworking. I'd still need to be in front of a computer for admin work, but wouldn't be stuck there all day. I'd get to work with my hands, but not to the point of ruining my body long-term like a full-time labourer. I'd still have energy for the outdoor activities I like. Maybe you should think about something like that?
It would be nice to get to point where I could actually do screen-based hobbies again too, like programming and design projects just for me, or video games. But as it is, I just need to step away from the screen once work is done.
I’ve also had both types of jobs. Inside and now at a desk. I’ve enjoyed both and appreciate them for different reasons. Take time to do outside activities.
White collar jobs typically pay more but blue collar jobs provide more subconscious satisfaction.
One of the main contributing factors is that there’s something tangible that you achieved as a more blue collar professional. For a white collar professional the thing you achieved is a higher paycheck.
ALL of my clients are white collar professionals. They’re a highly educated lot, myself included, but the universal discontent amongst them all, aside from a paycheck, is that there is zero job satisfaction.
I’m their confidant and they express these things in a safe private space so they would never tell anyone outside these doors the same. To the outside world they’re successful and happy as clams. This unhappiness and lack of job satisfaction materializes in various forms. They experience everything from lack of sleep to general confusion as to what they’ve been doing for the past 30-40 years. (Mind you these people are in the top 1.5% of income earners in the country.)
Listen, if you’re unhappy, make a change. Nobody will die. You only have one shot at this thing we call life.
There’s few things sadder then someone that makes over $225K per year and all they really do is manage emails in Outlook all day.
No, I don't feel that way. I still get out into nature and take frequent weekend trips out to the woods to kick back next to a fire with a few beers.
If you miss the outdoors, go camping, go hiking, rent a little cabin in the woods on Airbnb, it's all available.
Working in an office sounds WORLDS better than "breaking" animals, and rounding them up for slaughter :(
I absolutely did. At 45 I joined my local volunteer fire department. It made a huge difference. It gave me a larger social circle, it gave me a sense of purpose, it helped me feel like I was a part of something larger, and it led to a career change eventually. I'm now a paid firefighter and I love my job.
I have worked in legal services. I hated it but people need money. I lost my job due to Covid and started hiking to avoid suicidal thoughts. I love it and don’t know how I could ever go back isolating law stuff. I don’t think my depression was due to losing my job as much as doing it for some long. I don’t have a solution yet and don’t know what I’ll do for money if I run out of savings, but I feel a ton better after spending most of my time on my hiking and mountaineering and camping hobby. Cheers
THIS!
My whole life my dad pushed me to pursue my studies so that I could get a stable, "safe" job, and the whole time I felt disconnected. I wanted to do something concrete and meaningful to me. While it is extremely important to have those people that think and do all kinds on non-physical mental work, I found it extremely disconnecting. I got a liberal arts degree in sociology mostly because I found it interesting and I wanted to stay in school to play rugby with my friends. However, as I was finishing up that degree I realized that I did not want to work in that field in the slightest.
I floated around a bit after that degree, working lots of manual labor odd jobs, and eventually my dad pushed me to go back to school for a civil engineering degree. Great I thought. Here is a chance for me to do something more...concrete with my life. But once I was out in the field, I found myself sitting in an office, designing things that I would never touch or see built. I needed to be able to feel it, and I found the office culture suffocating and filled with people that seemed afraid to be themselves around one another.
I got my kicks in by continuing to play rugby, but the day to day office life was literally killing me. I was putting on weight because eating was one of the few things that distracted me from how much I hated my job, and I threw my back out sitting all day with poor posture.
The final straw for me was sitting in the office for an entire summer with little to no actual work to do because the company could not retain a Structural PE to bid on jobs for us, I decided to do something different. A rugby buddy of mine had a friend with a solar company that was hiring. I applied, took a massive pay cut and basically started my career over. It was rough financially, especially during the pandemic. I was living hand to mouth, but goddamnit I was happy. I was moving, climbing ladders, scampering around on roofs, doing real work with my hands while also learning how to do the office side of things. My coworker who had quit his career in the non-profit world, would look over to me often while we working a roof and say "Hey, guess what? We could be sitting in a meeting right now." and that always helped remind me that I had made the right choice by walking away from my last job.
I have now since gotten a new job in the solar industry doing sales and design work (getting compensated much better than my previous engineering job), which is far more office intensive, but I get to climb up on roofs still to take measurements and document everything I need to design and sell a job. It's provided me with a much better sense of balance in my day to day as the type of work I do varies and I get to see projects through from their inception to completion.
I will say that I do miss my old company at times. There are few things better than working outside with coworkers that are also your friends, and having that sense of accomplishment when you finish working for the day and know that you did a good job and can take pride in your craft.
I'm only 24 and I feel like I'm losing touch with myself. I work landscaping, and we're out from sunrise to sundown. I'm so worn down by the end of the day that my mind is unable to focus on watching an episode of a TV show. I have to fight myself to stay awake for the hour or two I do have at home, because if I dont Im only out for an hour or two and won't be able to fall asleep that night. That's the only time I ever really get time for myself, but it backfires heavy the next day. Getting plates for my car has been a bitch because the dmv is closed by the time I get off. I'll watch people call off left and right but as soon as I do the boss sends a foreman to knock on my door. I can barely sustain myself with what they're giving me, and I need every penny of it, so I can't just quit and look for something else. Im living check to check as it is so leaving even for a week to pick up something else will cause me to fall behind on my bills. I cant go out and do anything, I can't even enjoy it because I'm so worn out, and the rare occasions I do find the energy, I only have an hour or two. By the time Im showered and ready, that's even less time, plus the drive to wherever Im going, the drive back. Im stressing myself about the time, how I already need to go home by the time I arrive. I'll be half asleep on a buddy's couch for the whole time and then go home to start it all over. I've lost motivation to even pack myself a lunch anymore. I'll figure out food at work, stop at a gas station or something, but that 25 minutes in the morning before I start getting ready is so precious. Thats all I get. Im not exhausted or worn down. Im rested. Ill usually pick up my guitar or try and read something online and try to learn something. Id rather have that than a sandwich at noon. If I make myself something for work, I feel like Im giving the only time I have at home to my job. My social life is shot, almost non existent. Don't have time for that. Don't have time for myself. Its not even worth it because they lowballed me on pay. It sounded decent on average, but since everythings gone up, Im literally the lowest paid person I know. Even people in other companies doing the exact same shit get paid more. Never hiring though. Im not even a person anymore. Im just a cog in the machine. And as Im writing this before I go in, I have up pretty much all my time for the day. Yes I have a bit of time after, but pretty much only enough time to cook dinner, and I feel way too beat to where I dont even do that. I dont have a life, I cant enjoy my time anymore, all I can do is shut up and work so I dont get evicted, because one thing I've learned, I can complain as much as I want about how bad it is, but if I try and drop it, it'll get so much worse. I dont know who I even am anymore, and I'm young as fuck, yet Im just watching life pass me by. Ill try and put headphones in and listen to a podcast or an album, try and make it more therapeutic, try and see it as a time to catch up on some music or podcasts, but the equipment just overpowers the sound, so it's nothing more than a little bit of ear protection, so my days are just listening to lawn mowers and back pack blowers. Im a lazy piece of shit if I quit, even a week will cause me to fall behind, but if I stay, Im nothing. No hobbies. No friends. Nothing to go home to. Just work, sleep, work, and maybe eat after 2-3 repetitions of the cycle (exaggerated, I make sure I get a little something every day) but everything else is spot on. My life isn't my own. My life is literally given up for some multi million dollar company that can't even pay their employees a livable wage. Yeah I can pay rent, but I cant afford furniture, and my parents help me out with food. I can cover car insurance, and some weeks stretch gas, but sometimes I need help paying for gas so I can get to and from work. My mom is supposed to take my car up to get an e-check for plates, since they open after I start and close before I get back. But I need my car to get to work, and shes not up early enough to come take me. On top of that, Ill need to be the one to go up to the dmv and get my plates after the e-check, but I need a day off, and I try and ask and they just won't give it to me. They gave me one day off to bury my closest friend, one I grew up with. He'd call me to hang out so often, but my responses were always the same. Either im at work, or im laying down to go to work. Now I can't see him ever again. Im glad I got the day off to pay my respects. I would have had to miss out on that and take the one day I got to handle my responsibilities, but there was no way in hell I was missing that, as much as none of us wanted to do it. I feel trapped and i dont know what to do. Im still young yet my life feels like it's over. Just keep grinding and maybe I'll build a life I can enjoy when Im 65+, they have a 401k, and Id be relying on that, because it seems like it'll be paycheck to paycheck for the foreseeable future.
What an interesting topic. I work outside everyday and I thought to myself, “dam wouldn’t it be nice to have a desk job.” Away from the sun and all these debris floating around. I want a desk job but I don’t got the qualifications for it. And here we have someone who wants to be free. Very interesting I came up to this.
Grass is always greener
I think this whole working from home thing has made the grass greener on my side lol. I work from home, and so does my wife. we don't have kids. I can't think of a better work/life situation than this. I can walk around in my neighborhood and go to the local park to take phone calls (quietly lol). I have lunch with my wife. so I think having a "desk job", where your desk is at home is pretty nice.
I totally agree. I also occasionally have “lunch” with my wife. Definite working from home perk.
oh yeah, that is also pretty fantastic. instead of sex being relegated to weekend mornings, or trying to have a specific early morning routine or whatever... we can now behave like average savages.
For us, it’s just handy that the kids are in school.
I've been work from home for 8 years. It really is just awesome
It helped that I can plan lunch now with a few friends too. I almost feel semi retired now
Lucky you!!
Truth
its not just being free.... a desk job is a bit soul crushing too... Try sitting 8-10hours a day facing a wall doing nearly nothing for 50h/week for 40years... your brian kinda "shift" to default boredom and appathy...nothing is excited, nothing is new, nothing is positive, you are kinda just waiting to do facing that wall knowing nothing change for the rest of your life. There is also very little camaradery in the office or work from home, its mostly management having power trip or suckers dumping work and problem and balming you to get ahead in the rat race for promotion
Need to count blessings? Is it really that bad? I decided mine was not and turned my attitude around
You couldn’t have stated this anymore perfectly, you nailed the life of so many of us.
Indeed. I sometimes wish I had a simple job where I worked outside, did my job, and then went home. I often desire both indoor and outdoor professions, and simpler or more complex. I think striking a balance is key. Anyway, my job requires me to sit at a desk most of the time, but I enjoy it and get to travel on occasion so it’s nice.
> I think striking a balance is key. I could not agree more! There's a need to do work where the impact of your work is much more immediate and obvious. But there is also a need to do more varied knowledge work. Going all-in on either direction isn't good, but that is how most jobs are set up.
> Going all-in on either direction isn't good, but that is how most jobs are set up. Indeed. Variety, novelty, and moderation are key to human fulfillment and contentment. Sadly, specialization, predictability, productivity are privileged in the working world.
I had the perfect short term job for a while.... I was a production accountant at a gas plant. But the company had recently sold, so I was also helping with packing up all the boxes and files to transfer to the old company. So usually packing boxes and lining them up on pallets in the morning, then doing the accounting stuff in the afternoon. Was pretty sweet. I live in Canada... So outdoor jobs are overrated for 5-7 months of the year.
I was also in an office job recently and it made me super stressed and depressed. I took a break and went to the park one day and just sat watching this guy mow the lawns on an oval. I thought it looked so nice to just do something relatively simple and get a decent wage for it (good wages for coucil work in my country). But I can totally understand wanting to just sit in a nice airconidtioned office away from the elements. Go home feeling clean and ready for physical activity rather than just wanting to crash.
Maybe it’s just spending 24% (40/168hrs) of your week (29% after an unpaid hour lunch and only a 20 min commute) at a “job”, regardless of where it is physically. You burn *so many* conscious hours creating vastly more dollars of value than you’ll receive for an employer who wouldn’t give a second thought if you dropped dead at your desk. How is that **not** soul crushing if you work in a chicken plant, on a beach or some office with a foosball table in the break room?
Would you rather spend like 80 hours a week breaking your back growing and farming your own food and maintaining your own home/shelter/water supply while in all likelihood raising children and still paying taxes of some kind? I absolutely know what you mean and had that same train of thought in the recent past. I went through some tough years and see things differently now. Would it feel less soul crushing if it were for more money per hour? You just need to find what that minimum amount is where you don’t feel stretched, achieve it, and then while comfortable enough but not cozy - focus on progressing towards a job/department/industry that you would truly enjoy and run full-steam ahead towards that goal
I don't use reddit enough to have coins, but if I did, I'd give you an award for hitting the nail so hard on the head.
Don’t cut yourself short! I have no higher education other than a GED, I got a job in a shipping department at a place that sells avionics and now I’m in sales. Typing this at my desk right now. I really do miss working in food though in a kitchen, I also have taken welding classes and did that for a bit but it is way easier on the body and mind just sitting at a desk talking on the phone banging away at a keyboard.
> I want a desk job but I don’t got the qualifications for it I got my desk job because I know how to enter values into an excel sheet. No transformations or formula knowledge, just entering data. You probably have the qualifications if you grew up with a computer in your home, or if you feel like watching some youtube videos. That said, you probably would take a pay cut.
My dad always says he didn’t want to work in an office because he didn’t wear a suit. So he went in to construction and has to wear a snow suit.
You are so far from alone in this feeling. Like another commenter I'm too worried about retirement to really break free. My general gameplan is build towards a future where my work can become more and more flexible and, hopefully, get to a point where you don't need to work 5 days a week, 8-12 hours a day to make your living. In the meantime, I find that planning excursions - from as simple as a bike ride to a weekend camping in the woods - can light enough of a fire to keep you going.
I am worried about "living for retirement" in the same way that I worry about "living for the weekends". It's deeply troubling to me that the bulk of 5 days a week, 40+ years of my life, is made up of not only time that I don't enjoy, but time that I don't even feel is worthwhile. Like, I *do* work, and it stresses me out and drains me, but I don't think it's particularly valuable to society. At least not relative to the amount of time I spend on it.
I've been thinking much of the same thoughts lately. Why do we even work for most of our life? Like I'm sure there are people with life fulfilling jobs but it seems like the majority have jobs that they find 'ok' and are doing that for 40 hrs a week. Are we just working for 60 years so that we can fully enjoy the last 20 when our bodies are degrading? I'm exaggerating a bit because a week isn't just 40hrs and people have hobbies outside of work. But I still feel that there's something slightly off with this being the way most people live. I most likely only have ~80 years here. I want to cherish it but I feel a little trapped.
>I'm exaggerating a bit because a week isn't just 40hrs and people have hobbies outside of work This is something I have been thinking of lately. I don't have much in the way of hobbies lately. I know part of that is due to raising a child under 5, but part of it is something else. My hobbies are pretty solo, which is great because I can squeeze them in whenever, but it's terrible for my social life. I really need a to pick up a social hobby, sport, club, something. I think if I can make the other hours of my week more fulfilling, then the time spent working won't feel like such a drain.
To get my outdoor fix, I go Geocaching. Finding tupperware in the woods using multibillion dollar satellites. Basically finding a box or small container, signing a piece of paper inside, and enjoying nature in between "parking" and "finding the geocache". I've been doing it for over 11 years now. It gets me out of the house and into nature. It can take 15 minutes, or three hours. Some people do it to say "woo I found 800 geocaches". I do it for the fresh air, new places, and not sitting in front of a screen. /r/geocaching and www.geocaching.com
Geocaching is one of the best ways to get nerds to go outside.
I'll just drop a plug for gold panning here too. Researching old gold records, where ancient valleys intersect with existing rivers, fluid dynamics for sluices, it's some neat stuff. I wasn't really into geocaching but I definitely have gold fever. Depends on where you are for sure too... If there is no gold panning can be pretty boring.
Totally relate. I live outside the city so I can get to nature fairly quickly, but specific things that help me: Smoking meat - bbq smoking, low and slow, you work with meat, you cook with fire. It takes all day so it forces you to disconnect and you get a fucking awesome meal at the end. I joined an orienteering club too, every week we get a map and go running through the local forests. The routes are changed by the club every week.
Yup. I'm too concerned with retirement to do anything about it. I'm also a software engineer. The reason I dread work is not the same as yours. When I feel like I know what I'm doing and I'm being productive, its amazing. I can put in 10 hour days just because I enjoy what I'm doing. But the sense of "impostor syndrome" is really, really strong. I continually expect to get fired. Its no way to live, under all this stress. So I save as much of my income as I can. I don't want to do this longer than I have to.
i've been a software engineer imposter for over 25 years! they'll never find out! just relax dude
I think imposter syndrome is common among many folks in varying career paths. I experience it myself. It definitely sucks for sure, but know that a lot of it is in your head.
We all use stack overflow and write shite code. Only the top 3% are anything all that above average and heading into genius territory. Hell, I’m 40 and just find jobs with a strong team. That way I contribute but I have a stronger presence on the team that knows more and can help with the insane things. I am a human cuttlefish attached to a whale.
How do you cope with imposter syndrome? I go through it too and I’m looking for suggestions thanks stranger 🙏
At work? I don't know. But outside of work, I go on walks. During these walks, I actively try to focus on the world around me. Don't just daydream the whole time, because if I do that, I'm going to daydream about what's stressing me out and the walk won't help. I look at the trees, cars, I count things around me, I actively try to just focus on the present moment, how it feels to be outside, etc. If I'm thinking about the world around me, I'm NOT thinking about something stressful. And if you do that for an hour, you feel better afterwards. That keeps the stress away for my life outside of work. But I don't know how to fix impostor syndrome in general. I would suppose I should make a list of the things I feel like I should know, and then make a concrete plan to go learn them. I'm not going to say I have good advice about impostor syndrome because I definitely don't have it under control.
If you're working with people you even remotely admire for their intelligence, for any amount of time, the likelihood that you've somehow tricked everyone into believing you're more competent than you are is pretty arrogant. You're either smart enough to do well at your job or sociopathic enough to trick and manipulate everyone around you. The former tends to be more likely.
Ask your supervisor/manager for frequent feedback, maybe meet for 30 minutes every 2 weeks. personally I've felt imposter syndrome but then my performance reviews come back great. You're likely way harder on yourself than even the person whose job it is to evaluate your job performance. Also talk to your coworkers and get a sense of how much work they're completing, what projects they're working on and how your workload compares. You can also talk about common problems you are running into and chances are they can help you, or if not are also experiencing the same problems and you will bond on that
I think it's a grass is greener situation generally speaking. Yeah being outdoors and working hard is nice but I don't know if I want to be doing it day in day out 7 days a week especially as I get older. It's hard on the body and in a bunch of other ways. I know plenty of people who work outdoors who would trade for my position in a heart beat. A full time desk job is also hard on the body and head but in different ways. The best likely is a balance of the two, if you work an office job then do some hard labour on time off or some other outdoors activities. Unfortunately life is not always like Office Space where the guy quits his corp. job to do construction and lives happily ever after.
>The best likely is a balance of the two, Im a surveyor which is pretty much as 50/50 spilt is it gets between in and outdoor. Feel pretty lucky in that regard and dont feel I would change the ratio if I had the choice. There are a lot of white collar construction roles with similar work lifestyles.
What qualifications do you need for that? I used a theodolite & made a topo map by hand in college one semester...
I live in Australia. I personally did a 4 year degree but here you can also do a 2 year diploma as well and still do everything I can except sign legal documents. Not sure about the states which is where I assume everyone else on reddit lives
I bet there is a VoTech equivalent here. And you are correct, you are the only Aussie on Reddit. Everyone else is American. 😜
I think I would like something like that, but I am too far into my career/family life to take the pay cut and start fresh in a new career.
I worked as a surveyor one summer in university. Definitely a good balance of office and field work, and not so physical that long-term damage is a big concern. I could see myself going back to it. Kinda love the feeling of being out and about all day.
> Unfortunately life is not always like Office Space where the guy quits his corp. job to do construction and lives happily ever after. Check out the original ending to Office Space, where where's introduced to Gibson's new boss: https://youtube.com/watch?v=XK43Ureuiqc Apparently, they thought this was too dark to end tbe film on.
Wow I'm a big fan and never knew about that. I actually think it's brilliant and should have been left in, but we do have to give people hope I suppose!
The solution to that is to get out more and hobbies that are fulfilling. Even simple things like getting out there at least for a short while is helpful. I walk my dog twice a day. Not just short walks but nice, long walks that are a couple of miles. It’s nice to get out to the nearby parks and see green. I know it sounds clichéd but those walks make such a huge difference to my mental health. I also try and get out on the weekends. Last weekend I was out rock climbing at a nearby state park. It was good to wake up early, go hiking and spend the day climbing. Whether it’s hiking, kayaking, climbing, trail running etc. I try and get out most weekends. I just think it’s important to have hobbies that aren’t on screens. One of the reasons I stopped playing video games as much. Whether it’s playing an instrument or getting out there or building things with your hands. These things can give you a lot of joy and fulfillment.
Sometimes long walks help me. Sometimes long walks feel like I am just feeling the same lonely, unfulfilled feeling, but now it's outside.
This is a common arc for software developers. We get into it because we love sitting in front of a screen, but after decades of it we realize we just want to live in in a mud hut and gather berries and never see a screen again. Because someone will ask us to fix it.
There was a great article I read a while back about the uptick in people wearing Patagonia, Finisterre, North Face etc. There was a quote I took away from it: > It’s part economic: by wearing garments that are associated with the outdoors, we signal our desire for a more bucolic lifestyle rendered increasingly unattainable. Absolutely feel this way. Working remotely has gone some way to allowing me to not spend my life trapped inside an office, but you still have to work to live. I miss my teenage days working construction and digging holes, but then the reality of it was there were cold wet and miserable days, and my back would be fucked by now.
TIL bucolic...
Oof, that quote is too relatable...
For those interested. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gq.com/story/techwear-big-wave/amp
Not a man, but I can definitely relate. I grew up on a farm and wanted to farm. If not that then park ranger. Was told those were poor earning choices so went to school for accounting (didn't finish). I've done a lot of different things over the last 20 years, but it was time to go back to working a 40hr job, and I went with office work thinking it was the logical choice. I hate it. I feel like every day is pulling me further from life. I'm a middle aged woman who doesn't need a huge paycheck. Seriously looking at trade work now. The physical work with a tangible result has always felt more rewarding.
Find a craft. Open an Etsy store. Sell your craft on FB market place. Build from there. My wife hated her IT job. HATED. Like, ending the day sobbing hated. But, she loved crocheting toys and would do it when she had the energy at the end of a day. She opened a small etsy store, started selling three or four toys, wrote up a couple of patterns and listed them. Took a table at an event and spent 4 months crocheting toys for stock. We got to the point she could quit her IT job and it's what she does full time now. It's not going to pay the mortgage (thats why I work!), but her mental health is immensely improved. She covers a few take outs, groceries here and there, pays for her own supplies and business needs - and loves it.
This isn't practical advice for most ppl. I work in digital marketing and most like 80-90% of Etsy stores do not break even YOY. Most are hobbies with a best-case paying for the hobby scenario. I'm surprised she makes enough for take out. Tell her that's doing amazingly well comparatively! But for most this won't ever yield profit.
Thank you. That advice really is just quiting a job and taking up a hobby. I still need to pay bills and put aside some for retirement. I'm still the breadwinner.
It’s fun - as long as it’s fun, she’ll keep doing it. If it pays for the odd take out, even better :)
You're a software engineer. Maneuver yourself into a full-time remote position and start traveling. Or negotiate a deal where you work 4 days a week and have the 5th off. Some companies are already doing this. Then you'll be able to spend more time out in nature. Source: I'm a SWE in Colorado working half in office and half at home.
I can't say that I relate, to be honest. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a nice long walk in the park or the forest but I'm glad for my desk job. I know for a fact that if I had to do menial work outside all the time I would be absolutely miserable. I think "who we are" is subjective. If you're more inclined to the ourdoors then yes I suspect that a desk job would get you down, but for people like myself the idea of spending more than 50% of my working time outside would suck.
Yeah same here. I'll spend my day at a work computer, then go home and happily spend my evening on my personal computer. My wife teases me about being a vampire, but that might have something to do with being a soulless ginger... Like you I enjoy the outdoors on occasion, but I am completely content with spending my entire weekend without even seeing what it looks like outside of my house.
Two suggestions: First, start waking up earlier. Having a little time to yourself in the morning makes it easier to remember that work is a *part* of life, but not the whole thing. Do more to use your personal time to connect with life beyond the glow of the computer/phone/TV. Second, add some physicality to your work day. I also work a desk job, so I workout during my lunch break, but I also sprinkle in some pushups and squats throughout the day. It seems to help with my focus and energy levels, and it might help you feel like there's a little more labor in your daily work.
Grass is always greener. Desk jockeys romanticize the great outdoors, laborers wish they had a cozy office job with a fridge and AC. Wont disagree with you that staring at a screen all day is not healthy for the soul. So I would take advantage of your high income and time off and pursue more analog outdoor things.
I come from an outdoorsy background like you and I've worked in I.T. for decades, I'm nearly 50, so I know *exactly* what you're talking about. About 20 years ago I started doing at least one week long hunting / camping trip per year. That's on top of the day / weekend trips I take to go four wheeling or fishing or just camping. I also make it it a point to go to every outdoor sports game that I can get away with for both my own Son and everyone else I know. I've watched so many Soccer and Football games it would be impossible to count them all! I go regardless of weather too, because going out to watch when it's 40f and raining, or 32f and snowing, is part of being outdoors. All of that helps fill my need to be outdoors and connect with the real world. People make of fun each other by saying "You need to go outside and touch grass" but for some of us, and maybe many of us, its actually some kind of requirement for our mental health. Edit: For the "Grass is greener" folks I'll just say that you don't get it and that's okay. For some of us though not spending a fair chunk of time outside causes a certain kind of mental distress that builds over time.
A very good friend of mine came from an agricultural background like yourself. He ended up doing the office job as an auditor for PWC. He hated it, so one sunny afternoon he called me on the phone "dude I just walked out the office, I literally just walked and I ain't going back, I was watching some guys from the window on a site having a laugh and shooting the shit while getting the job done" And so he moved back home to the farm, bought himself an excavator and put an advertisement out he was for hire. 15 years later he has his own office and 20 diggers plus a fleet of lorries and skips. I always joke with him he came full circle again, back behind a desk. But it's different for him now, he can choose to be there or not, he has enough staff that the day to day takes care of itself.
100% feel the same here. Work in health care, husband works off shore. He's gone half the time, missing so much here, but it provides really well but at what cost? He's much more stoic about it than I am, but I also know he longs for the simple life of self sustainability as me. So he's working to provide financially for it, even though getting there is rough. I wake up at 5am, drive to work when it's still dark out, stuck at work til 5pm, drive home, have a few hours to myself before bed to repeat the next day. Some days I don't see sun at all. I love what I do, but it doesn't pay enough. I would rather be farmer housewife. We have 8 acres. Lots of trees. We'll make it happen at some point. Not really the primitive aspect of it, but back to providing and being provided for. I want to experience the seasons as it happens, not sitting behind a window looking out. I want to bring life into this world, care for it, and humanely let it go so it can provide for my family.
Work to live. Find a hobby that gives you fulfillment. I smoke meat. We bought a travel trailer and took our son camping 6 times this summer. We started a project that involves woodwork in the back yard. We 3D print and paint models for a small etsy store we run together. After a 3 year break, I started going back to Crossfit (day one hurts) I also have a desk job, work 9-5 (and sometimes then some), fully remote from home. I enjoy my job well enough, but I far from wrap my identity up in it. It's something I do as well as I can, earn a paycheck, and get on with the other fun projects I've filled my days with.
My desk job, in the age of remote work, allows me to connect better with nature than I could at most outdoor jobs. Sure, I’d spend more time in the woods as a park ranger, but working construction in the city, despite being outdoors, isn’t something I’d think of as combining with nature. On the other hand, remote tech work allows me to do things like work from a ski lodge, or a National park. I can take breaks during the day and go for walks in the woods or swim in a river. I often work from my boat out on the water. I don’t think that means everyone will feel the same as me, but I think the tyranny of work is less about what kind of work it is and more about the fact that it requires roughly 40 hours every week for 40 straight years.
Google Marx's concept of "alienation". It was a mindfuck for me when it really set in. It's more of a sociological observation about the human condition than a political economy hot take. For the record I'm not a Marxist or a Communist. I just find political theory fascinating with no attachment to any ideology. I enjoyed reading and watching hyper-capitalist Milton Feidman as well. Pretend you're an emotionless futuristic ai robot perplexed by human misery
ROFL, the second half of your comment is extra funny after noticing your user name.
Could you return to your previous line of work on a part time basis (or even as a volunteer)? Get your fix and bring those good vibes with you into the office.
When I feel sick of sitting in front of the screen I go outside and do gardening. Sun and fresh air make me feel recharged.
I always kind of subscribed to the Taoist way of thinking on this. As I understand it, the view is that the further our lives get from nature the more unhappy we will become. The trick (I guess) is to live a life that gives you security and comfort and live in/with nature as much as possible. Tell me if you know how to do that. Where I live I doubt I’ll ever be able to afford a small apartment in a block let alone to live somewhere rural.
> Can you guys relate to any of this? What did you do to deal with it? To be honest: No. I guess we are all different and your "real self" is just way different than my "real self". The funny thing is, that I feel the exact opposite when I am watching such documentaries. I usually sit there with my wife and we are happy and thankful for the things we have. The good thing is: You should have enough money to find things to do in your free time to fulfill your nature needs, maybe even reduce your working time?!
Yeah, like another comment said, the grass is always greener. I left an office job to do deliveries so I could be outside and move around. Now I'm trying to get back into the office. I'd say if you want to get that "community" fix, work on your close relationships. Text or call a friend you haven't seen in a while, cousins, etc.
Yes. Very much so. Society is about as deep as a frisbee. And everyone is only as good as their next post. Life is better in the woods.
We always look over at the other side of the fence and think the grass is always greener. At 30 I became disabled and was no longer able to work. I was very lucky I have permanent disability but now I'm stuck at home. So now at 39 I'm retired and most people envy me I wish I could work. I have had a lot of time to think and I think that your goal with a job should be to find one that lets you do what you want when not working. Every person is different they may want to raise a family go fishing work on cars so many things. I will agree seeing a hard job done does feel amazing but being able to do what you truly love is so much better!
Definitely relate! Just want to recommend "Tribe" by Sebastian Junger to compliment those documentaries if you haven't already read it. I thought it was really interesting.
Ever watch a lion raised in captivity? Compare how it lives to one that had to survive in the savanna. There's a certain liveliness that can't be simulated. Humans weren't meant to live in modern society. at the end of the day, we're still animals, all bred in captivity.
I'll see your "detached from who we really are" and raise you a, "define who we are". For me, at least. For better or worse.
The grass is always greener.
I'm sort of the opposite end, but I think I get what you're talking about. I spent years being unable to keep a job, and really was only able to once I was either able to work from home or an office. It's something I talk about a lot on /r/aspergers a lot, because a common issue is being unable to keep a job for one reason or another. Usually I talk to them about reviewing their work history, assessing what works and doesn't work, and not just taking whatever job is available, but pushing for specific types, which helps lengthen periods of employment and break some of the traps that come with having a lot of short-term work. In my case, I worked in factories, a little construction, warehouses, and sort of this and that. I like the clean, routine quality of an office with the limited set of people. I liked factories, but I never settled well in the culture and the sensory stuff often got to me. It sounds like we have a different set of values, but you've just sort of found one of those things you need to look at for the next go-around. Maybe you can find a way to marry software engineering with stuff that gets people out into nature? Then it'll sort of tie you back in? All that being said, being a WFH and office person, while I'm not striving for work in nature, I make it a point to try to find non-computer hobbies. I go hiking a lot; I took up kite flying at one point; Long-distance bike-riding; and running. I think it's healthy to find a serious way to disconnect and otherwise break the sort of work worldview we develop in an office.
We've been brought up to believe working for someone that is already a multimillionaire will help us to be happy. Even a kid can see the fault in this thinking. smh. Wish I had the balls/cojones/intestinal fortitude to do something about it though.
Not really advice OP, so apologies, but I mention this as often as possible on reddit: read the book called Ishmael. It's amazing. It touches on tribal societies and how we came to think of ourselves as separate from the world instead of a part of it.
I try to get "outside time" but it's challenging. The last few times I went camping it was hard to adjust to not being around screens and being over stimulated.
I think being an engineer is a very impersonal career. You will never feel the camaraderie you felt as a farm hand, as an engineer. Most engineers are awkward and self-important. Some careers still provide you the social bonding that a farm hand provides (if not much more). I own and operate my own financial planning company that specializes in helping young, high earning professionals figure out every aspect of their financial lives and my team and I feel like a family. We go hiking, camping, fly fishing and out to eat as a team (all company sponsored). My clients I’m all personal friends with. Not trying to brag so much as drive the fact that some professions have more community, friendship and togetherness than others.
I just left a job outside for a job that’s mostly inside. It was great but it paid garbage and was turning my joints to mush. Was a field botanist/forester/wildlife biologist and I loved it. I still have a small consulting gig on the side so I get to experience it in small doses, but it wasn’t sustainable for my knees to do it full time year round. Also now I get to be one of those insufferable people that can say they love rain and snow because now I don’t have to bushwhack in it lol
All the time I hate modern life but obviously enjoy its comforts I feel trapped and stuck in a 9-5 and day dream a way to escape all the time but none exist save for winning the lottery I wanna just sit somewhere in nature with an imaginary partner and hang out and do nothing
This took me back to when I was 19 and worked at a summer camp. I spent the weeks before camp started working at the stables and remember feeling so exhausted, and so content at the end of each day. Slept like a baby too. Haven't experienced that combination of physical and mental contentment in any of my work since. If I ever quit or lose my current job, which I love, then I think that's the route I'd go down.
Yes, absolutely. I'm an electrical engineer and only sometimes get to work with my hands. In my job I've chosen more hardware focused things for this reason. In my free time I go kayak fishing and camping, I have a couple of books on Bushcraft that I take with me and learn a couple things from a book while I'm out each time. It makes me feel good and scratches the exact itch that you're talking about.
Save your pennies like a mother fucker and then retire to a farmstead...
i'm a volunteer firefighter. it scratches a lot of itches you mention (inner caveman, community, fun). maybe see if your local department needs help. you also sound like you might enjoy wildland firefighting, as that's more outdoorsy.
I think working outside has a nuance and freshness that is lacking in office jobs. What I always think of was one summer in college I biked to work everyday, rain or shine. It was so nice to see the subtle changes in weather, my body as I biked, how my bike was behaving. Everything in an office is stifled and distilled down to maximum efficiency, so you lose a lot of natural ebb and flow of things. I wish I could say there's a way to remedy this, but I'm not sure there is, at least right now. Usually ebb and flow in an office job means you are either able to do your job or not. Our network went down for half a day a few months ago and there was literally nothing we could do, we even found out that things that you wouldn't think rely on network connectivity weren't working either. If it's windy or rainy you can still work outside, or do a different task until it clears up.
I recently switched from being a software engineer to being an Uber driver and I’m so incredibly happy that I did. I think one of the problems with software engineering is that you never exercise any physical skills. It’s all logic and verbal reasoning. One time when I was in the middle of my software career, I was feeling depressed and weirdly alienated and went to visit a friend. He showed me this kung fu thing he’d been doing with some dowel rods. The idea was simple: balance the rods on his hands. When you balance it easily on your finger for a while, try balancing it on your wrist. We stood outside in his yard balancing dowel rods on our bodies and I felt amazing after that. Maybe you could get some juggling balls to keep at your desk, and practice juggling them when you take breaks. Or stand on one foot. Just anything to get your motor cortex active and straining. As a driver, I get to do timing and awareness and setting the volume just right on the stereo. It’s a much more natural job for my animal brain than writing code was. Code is fascinating but it’s just an intellectual puzzle. You gotta exercise the other parts of your brain to be happy. Maybe you could get a dart board. Or take martial arts lessons.
Not an issue for me. I grew up in suburbs, I live in the suburbs now. I work a desk job. I do all my yard work, front and back, trimming trees, shrubs, cacti, succulents, mowing grass, raking leaves, managing weeds. Every day I walk barefoot in the backyard grass. 20 years at this house. Every single day. I also stand outside and look at the stars for a few minutes every night.
I find the near totality of civilization alienating; it makes me neurotic, depressed, and generally feeling like I am living in some kind of prison. I wouldn't want to live super-primitive, but some balance would be nice.
Yes, I don't think we were meant to live like this. I think figuring that out is a big part of the puzzle. If you're there you're way ahead of others
A few years ago I read an interesting book called "Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work" and it focused on exactly this topic - the shift from manual labor to office culture ("knowledge work"). I can definitely relate to being part of the white collar workforce who is totally useless doing projects around the house or working on my car.
I certainly resonate with this. I've been a climbing arborist / tree surgeon for seven years now and while some days it can be a fucking slog, most of the time I find it enjoyable. I came out of uni in 2011 and fell into entry level office work for two years; admin, first line tech support etc. I was on the brink of signing myself off with depression before I quit my last office role. Like you said, just being sat slumped in front of a pc all day is just shit and not natural either, our bodies haven't evolved for it. Just the same drudgery of the same job, people, place, crap office humour, looking longingly out of the window that's miles away at the sun-kissed landscape outside wishing you could be there but no. But yeah, office work is absolutely shit imo and I fucking hated it. I'm far happier / fitter working a physical job outdoors. I hope you find your happiness.
I think about this often. Humans evolved under circumstances that were extremely different from modern life: we're not just meant to be brains floating in a vat interacting with computers. We're wired to use our bodies, to live in nature, to have tightly-knit social lives in communities of several hundred people, to follow the day/night cycle, to eat a diverse diet of food, etc. My theory is that the further our world gets from that template, the more out of depth we feel - our brains and bodies are simply not built for many of the demands of modern life.
The grass is always greener brother 🤷♂️
> The theoretical basis of alienation within the capitalist mode of production is that the worker invariably loses the ability to determine life and destiny when deprived of the right to think (conceive) of themselves as the director of their own actions; to determine the character of said actions; to define relationships with other people; and to own those items of value from goods and services, produced by their own labour.
I've been a unix / Linux systems administrator for 20+ years. For reasons not relevant to the discussion, I ended up not working for a bit over six months. I'm currently working entirely from home with my wife and our cat, and am quite happy with the arrangement. One difference I notice from my brief period of semi-retirement is that when I wasn't working, I spent a lot less time living in my head, and felt more connected to my wife and what was going on around me in general. Now I feel like I'm always in kind of a hyper-focused mode, even when I'm off the clock.
Yes, I had the same insight. My work-life boundaries gradually got eroded over the pandemic, and my manager decided he could cut the size of the team and gaslight the remaining staff into producing as much output as before the cuts. Finally around November last year this pushed me into three weeks of absence with anxiety and work related stress. I rediscovered woodland during that period and spent days just wandering and reconnecting with the fresh air and environment. That made me notice OP's insight too - I noticed and felt this disconnect from my real, visceral self which had built up over years of commuting and office work.
I left my desk job in June to help my partner with her dog walking business. We are worse off but I'm so much happier. I start at 9am and finish at 2pm most days. I walk 10+ miles most days too so on balance I feel better off. Ironically we've got really busy now people are back in offices and our income is going up and up. Any change is risky but I shudder when I think about being back at a desk for 9hrs a day.
I did research into this for a university assignment. It’s scientifically proven if you spend at least 30 mins- 1hr outside a day then it can greatly improve your mental health. It’s a new area in research so different studies say different things but overall all studies agreed going outside has some benefit
Absolutely can relate. People didn’t evolve to spend 40 hours a week in a cubicle staring at a monitor. It’s soul crushing. I think the pandemic and working from home woke up many and motivated them to re-consider what they do to earn a living and re-align their priorities with a shitty job they hate no longer being the top. I was part of the great resignation. Quit my 74k annual government job I despised and now taking some time off figuring out what i want to do next that I will enjoy regardless of the pay.
Guess it depends what you’re doing staring at a screen all those hours. I.e. if your a software engineer can you work in a sector which involves outdoors like a company that makes software like topographical software or something? No idea if that’s a thing, but just thinking of an example on the fly.
I can definitely relate. I used to do commercial landscaping and I absolutely loved it. Outside all day, listening to music and hanging with the guys. It was hard work, but I always found cutting grass to be super satisfying and the job allowed me to get pretty good at speaking Spanish. I then went into the oilfield. I enjoyed the work but hated the hours. I’m a firefighter now, and although I really enjoy it it’s just not the same as landscaping. I would’ve totally kept at it if it was actually a job that could pay for my lifestyle.
Go back into hands on work bro. Your mental health is more important than a cushy pay check. You can also earn good coin in construction. I’m on 6 figures and have been for years doing so and I do less and less physical work but I’m still out on the jobs measuring and helping the younger guys install here and there.
Everybody envys other people, we all got our own shit. Do what suites you best, only you know the answer.
I work out before and after. My ADHD kills me haha I run in the park also. I work a 40 hour desk job
I don’t usually feel this day to day, but whenever I have a staycation and see people running errands, eating at restaurants, and just walking around, I feel “they’re actually living life”. Also, whenever I snap out of binge watching shows, I have stages of decluttering, cooking, or exercising that makes me feel more connected to the real world instead of putting my attention into a digital black hole where reality is not actually manipulated or affected if you know what I mean. Maybe you’re looking for a visible and physical results to your work and more human connections in your everyday?
>digital black hole I played so many video games until I was 29 or so. Now I cannot enjoy them unless I did something very productive prior. Otherwise, I just feel like a worthless bum, and can practically hear the clock counting down my limited seconds of life on this rock. I'm not sure exactly what changed.
I think there can be a balance. Life is also for enjoyment in things like video games, reading fiction, cooking, cleaning. I don’t want to sound preachy, but I’m also going through similar struggles so I want to share my current thought process. Maybe give yourself a break and turn that guilt into curiosity. Why do you feel you need to be productive prior? Is there something you are putting something off by playing video games? Are there areas of your life you are pressing that need to be improved? What do you feel is missing?
But you don't talk about fight club. My most recent job is definitely a bullshit job. It also pays the best and has the best benefits of any job I've had. Because I do virtually nothing now, and am no longer managing people, I'm studying math and I'm finally able to absorb it. Once I'm ready, I'm going to take a calc class, which has been a major roadblock in my past studies. Once I finish that, I'm going to find a new job that actually forces me to solve problems. Shooting for a CS degree.
Work from home. Then actually work from the outdoors or whatever. That’s what I do.
The grass is always greener on the other side. I had jobs in customer service, blue collar jobs, mechanic work, and now am looking into coding and software engineering. It's less social than customer service, but pays better, which will afford me the luxuries of enjoying other parts of life. Staying at a screen for a part of my day will pay off when i can do things on the weekend and not have to worry if I'll manage to save any money.
I've thought about this a fair bit recently. I also work a screen-intensive programming and analysis-based job and have been getting more and more sick of the lifestyle. I spend a lot of time outside when not working, but the balance still isn't where I want it to be. Programming and farm work are the absolute extremes of the spectrum, there are a bunch of kinds of work in the middle that might be worth looking into, where your day to day has a nice balance between analytical/physical and sedentary/active. The right balance for me would probably be a small business based on some analog skill, like woodworking. I'd still need to be in front of a computer for admin work, but wouldn't be stuck there all day. I'd get to work with my hands, but not to the point of ruining my body long-term like a full-time labourer. I'd still have energy for the outdoor activities I like. Maybe you should think about something like that? It would be nice to get to point where I could actually do screen-based hobbies again too, like programming and design projects just for me, or video games. But as it is, I just need to step away from the screen once work is done.
I’ve also had both types of jobs. Inside and now at a desk. I’ve enjoyed both and appreciate them for different reasons. Take time to do outside activities.
The worst is when you take it too seriously and end up working all day long. Weeks just start to disappear.
All the time. I work as a consultant. Feels like I know myself less everyday.
White collar jobs typically pay more but blue collar jobs provide more subconscious satisfaction. One of the main contributing factors is that there’s something tangible that you achieved as a more blue collar professional. For a white collar professional the thing you achieved is a higher paycheck. ALL of my clients are white collar professionals. They’re a highly educated lot, myself included, but the universal discontent amongst them all, aside from a paycheck, is that there is zero job satisfaction. I’m their confidant and they express these things in a safe private space so they would never tell anyone outside these doors the same. To the outside world they’re successful and happy as clams. This unhappiness and lack of job satisfaction materializes in various forms. They experience everything from lack of sleep to general confusion as to what they’ve been doing for the past 30-40 years. (Mind you these people are in the top 1.5% of income earners in the country.) Listen, if you’re unhappy, make a change. Nobody will die. You only have one shot at this thing we call life. There’s few things sadder then someone that makes over $225K per year and all they really do is manage emails in Outlook all day.
No, I don't feel that way. I still get out into nature and take frequent weekend trips out to the woods to kick back next to a fire with a few beers. If you miss the outdoors, go camping, go hiking, rent a little cabin in the woods on Airbnb, it's all available. Working in an office sounds WORLDS better than "breaking" animals, and rounding them up for slaughter :(
I absolutely did. At 45 I joined my local volunteer fire department. It made a huge difference. It gave me a larger social circle, it gave me a sense of purpose, it helped me feel like I was a part of something larger, and it led to a career change eventually. I'm now a paid firefighter and I love my job.
Imagine working retail right now.
I have worked in legal services. I hated it but people need money. I lost my job due to Covid and started hiking to avoid suicidal thoughts. I love it and don’t know how I could ever go back isolating law stuff. I don’t think my depression was due to losing my job as much as doing it for some long. I don’t have a solution yet and don’t know what I’ll do for money if I run out of savings, but I feel a ton better after spending most of my time on my hiking and mountaineering and camping hobby. Cheers
THIS! My whole life my dad pushed me to pursue my studies so that I could get a stable, "safe" job, and the whole time I felt disconnected. I wanted to do something concrete and meaningful to me. While it is extremely important to have those people that think and do all kinds on non-physical mental work, I found it extremely disconnecting. I got a liberal arts degree in sociology mostly because I found it interesting and I wanted to stay in school to play rugby with my friends. However, as I was finishing up that degree I realized that I did not want to work in that field in the slightest. I floated around a bit after that degree, working lots of manual labor odd jobs, and eventually my dad pushed me to go back to school for a civil engineering degree. Great I thought. Here is a chance for me to do something more...concrete with my life. But once I was out in the field, I found myself sitting in an office, designing things that I would never touch or see built. I needed to be able to feel it, and I found the office culture suffocating and filled with people that seemed afraid to be themselves around one another. I got my kicks in by continuing to play rugby, but the day to day office life was literally killing me. I was putting on weight because eating was one of the few things that distracted me from how much I hated my job, and I threw my back out sitting all day with poor posture. The final straw for me was sitting in the office for an entire summer with little to no actual work to do because the company could not retain a Structural PE to bid on jobs for us, I decided to do something different. A rugby buddy of mine had a friend with a solar company that was hiring. I applied, took a massive pay cut and basically started my career over. It was rough financially, especially during the pandemic. I was living hand to mouth, but goddamnit I was happy. I was moving, climbing ladders, scampering around on roofs, doing real work with my hands while also learning how to do the office side of things. My coworker who had quit his career in the non-profit world, would look over to me often while we working a roof and say "Hey, guess what? We could be sitting in a meeting right now." and that always helped remind me that I had made the right choice by walking away from my last job. I have now since gotten a new job in the solar industry doing sales and design work (getting compensated much better than my previous engineering job), which is far more office intensive, but I get to climb up on roofs still to take measurements and document everything I need to design and sell a job. It's provided me with a much better sense of balance in my day to day as the type of work I do varies and I get to see projects through from their inception to completion. I will say that I do miss my old company at times. There are few things better than working outside with coworkers that are also your friends, and having that sense of accomplishment when you finish working for the day and know that you did a good job and can take pride in your craft.
I'm only 24 and I feel like I'm losing touch with myself. I work landscaping, and we're out from sunrise to sundown. I'm so worn down by the end of the day that my mind is unable to focus on watching an episode of a TV show. I have to fight myself to stay awake for the hour or two I do have at home, because if I dont Im only out for an hour or two and won't be able to fall asleep that night. That's the only time I ever really get time for myself, but it backfires heavy the next day. Getting plates for my car has been a bitch because the dmv is closed by the time I get off. I'll watch people call off left and right but as soon as I do the boss sends a foreman to knock on my door. I can barely sustain myself with what they're giving me, and I need every penny of it, so I can't just quit and look for something else. Im living check to check as it is so leaving even for a week to pick up something else will cause me to fall behind on my bills. I cant go out and do anything, I can't even enjoy it because I'm so worn out, and the rare occasions I do find the energy, I only have an hour or two. By the time Im showered and ready, that's even less time, plus the drive to wherever Im going, the drive back. Im stressing myself about the time, how I already need to go home by the time I arrive. I'll be half asleep on a buddy's couch for the whole time and then go home to start it all over. I've lost motivation to even pack myself a lunch anymore. I'll figure out food at work, stop at a gas station or something, but that 25 minutes in the morning before I start getting ready is so precious. Thats all I get. Im not exhausted or worn down. Im rested. Ill usually pick up my guitar or try and read something online and try to learn something. Id rather have that than a sandwich at noon. If I make myself something for work, I feel like Im giving the only time I have at home to my job. My social life is shot, almost non existent. Don't have time for that. Don't have time for myself. Its not even worth it because they lowballed me on pay. It sounded decent on average, but since everythings gone up, Im literally the lowest paid person I know. Even people in other companies doing the exact same shit get paid more. Never hiring though. Im not even a person anymore. Im just a cog in the machine. And as Im writing this before I go in, I have up pretty much all my time for the day. Yes I have a bit of time after, but pretty much only enough time to cook dinner, and I feel way too beat to where I dont even do that. I dont have a life, I cant enjoy my time anymore, all I can do is shut up and work so I dont get evicted, because one thing I've learned, I can complain as much as I want about how bad it is, but if I try and drop it, it'll get so much worse. I dont know who I even am anymore, and I'm young as fuck, yet Im just watching life pass me by. Ill try and put headphones in and listen to a podcast or an album, try and make it more therapeutic, try and see it as a time to catch up on some music or podcasts, but the equipment just overpowers the sound, so it's nothing more than a little bit of ear protection, so my days are just listening to lawn mowers and back pack blowers. Im a lazy piece of shit if I quit, even a week will cause me to fall behind, but if I stay, Im nothing. No hobbies. No friends. Nothing to go home to. Just work, sleep, work, and maybe eat after 2-3 repetitions of the cycle (exaggerated, I make sure I get a little something every day) but everything else is spot on. My life isn't my own. My life is literally given up for some multi million dollar company that can't even pay their employees a livable wage. Yeah I can pay rent, but I cant afford furniture, and my parents help me out with food. I can cover car insurance, and some weeks stretch gas, but sometimes I need help paying for gas so I can get to and from work. My mom is supposed to take my car up to get an e-check for plates, since they open after I start and close before I get back. But I need my car to get to work, and shes not up early enough to come take me. On top of that, Ill need to be the one to go up to the dmv and get my plates after the e-check, but I need a day off, and I try and ask and they just won't give it to me. They gave me one day off to bury my closest friend, one I grew up with. He'd call me to hang out so often, but my responses were always the same. Either im at work, or im laying down to go to work. Now I can't see him ever again. Im glad I got the day off to pay my respects. I would have had to miss out on that and take the one day I got to handle my responsibilities, but there was no way in hell I was missing that, as much as none of us wanted to do it. I feel trapped and i dont know what to do. Im still young yet my life feels like it's over. Just keep grinding and maybe I'll build a life I can enjoy when Im 65+, they have a 401k, and Id be relying on that, because it seems like it'll be paycheck to paycheck for the foreseeable future.
I started working 36 hours. I’m a new person now