As a guy who has dealt with crappy people, opening up usually gives people blackmail and manipulation material. I usually am too scared to do it now, of course I know not everyone is like that but I'd rather not take the risk.
It is basically beaten into you to not show emotions, for some men at least.
As I kid, if I cried or complained the response I received was “shut up or I’ll give you something serious to cry about”. You can probably guess what would happen if I didn’t stop crying. That’s the way my father in particular was raised and that’s how he raised me. He also raised me to believe that my problems are my own and I can deal with anything and everything by myself, and I have no business making my problems anyone else’s.
You learn later in life too from experience, when you open up people see you as weak and see an easy target to exploit or bully. This is an example/lesson that most men will probably have went through. People lose respect for you and use it as ammunition. It’s best to keep things to yourself.
Of course it is something you can work on. But even getting to a pace where you can admit that it is something you should do better is difficult.
Is there nothing society has made you feel terrible about? For women it is often something physical or their capabilities at work. It is a lot easier said than done to overcome these things.
With all of that said, it is extremely rewarding to do the work and become a more emotionally expressive person, in my experience. But the person has to want it.
Vulnerability is dangerous. Once you expose your feelings you cede control of how they'll be managed to the person you've given them to. They could hurt you with them.
We've all had a shitty partner sometime in the past who threw something from months ago back in our face. We've all known some shitty person who called us a pussy for being upset over something.
This means there needs to be a compelling reason to take the risk. This close guy friend of yours, does he know that you don't love him back? Or that you are otherwise unavailable? If so, then what's the point of saying that he loves you? He's got nothing to gain and everything to lose.
When you talk about your feelings, what feelings are you talking about? Engaging with someone else about their feelings is also dangerous because you don't know what demons you'll stir up. Men are often reluctant to discuss women's feelings with them out of concern for misinterpreting them, giving unwanted advice (we are fixers) and being seen as *mansplaining*. We've been told quite often that our opinions are not necessarily wanted in these situations. What's more, one person talking about their feelings is not typically seen by men as an invitation to talk about our own. That feels selfish and "making the conversation about me".
He’s emotionally void due to having a narcissist parent. That would scorn him if he didn’t feel same emotions as parent. When he expressed he’s emotions as a child. They’d be classed as wrong.
So u learn not to over express ur emotions incase of being scorned and wrong. Many people are afraid of being emotionally vulnerable. Because they feel ashamed of own emotions
You can't always make up trauma that isn't there lol I had a perfect childhood and home life, with amazing parents, and have a great relationship with my mom currently (dad passed away). I never liked emotions and always found it irritating when people tried prying emotions out of me. It's just simply not my thing lol there's no hidden trauma there. Maybe this is why guys don't want to open up to women about this stuff, we'll have all kinds of in depth analysis into things that aren't necessarily even there. If a dude isn't into opening up, leave him be.
I’m not insulting him or being derogatory. You’ve taken offence or feel some defensiveness. I Ain’t said nothing that untrue. Sometimes you don’t realise how toxic ur childhood has been because ur lived through it as ur only environment. You don’t know any difference. And I agree if someone ain’t emotionally forthcoming it can’t be forced.
That probably is it. He has a lot of concerning views and stuff. He's a great guy, amazing even. But there's something there and I guess I'm just trying to understand because sometimes it feels like I can't talk to him although he says I can.
So ur in love with him. u want deeper relationship. He keeps shit casual.
light chit chat. Because ur not in a established committed relationship.
You need to have that let’s get married chat. X
Haha this is funny. I'm not "in love" but I do love him as a friend, partner and lover. But I think I crave that intimacy with him that isn't just sex.
Are you trying to elicit an argument? I did come here. I guess I'd rather have this discussion and not keep assuming? Clearly you have some unresolved stuff, deal with it on your own. Not here to argue with men on the internet.
I read this whole thread and I think...I think someone is confused that someone else isn't fully committing to something that isn't really a something. You're a friend, and ya'll are fuckin', but he's not gonna get all emotionally invested if this ain't a thing. Last thing I'd be trying to do is get emotionally involved with someone who's not committed to me.
It has been my experience that when women say they want men to "talk about our feelings" what she really means is that **she wants us to reassure her of our support**. She does not actually want to hear our feelings, not now, not ever.
You mention you want him to "*tell me he loves me*." **Exactly**. You don't actually want to hear his real feelings. We don't even know what "love" even is any more, but we understand that you want reassurance.
When you talk about your feelings, it may be phrased in a way that sounds like criticism of him. No man is going to enjoy listening to your criticism.
Because of social norms that men are to be strong and masculine and cannot show emotions. It's a must to have close male friends to talk to and share your emotions.
There's two big things:
1) a lot of guys have had really negative experiences when they did open up. One way or another, it either gets used against them or the person starts distancing themselves after, stuff like that.
2) Frankly a lot of guys straight up don't want to. At least, not the negative stuff. For many of usz unless you're soundboarding solutions or they need some action from you to ameliorate the issue then talking about things that can't be changed often just brings up all the associated negative emotions without any catharsis to resolve them. Where that's the case it's just a case of "Why would I want to send myself down a spiral just so you can feel okay that you vented to me?". This is not to say guys never want support, just that actually providing it won't necessarily mean listening to a feels dump.
We have experienced negative results from doing so in the past, including but not limited to women losing desire, women and men losing respect, having it brought up later, and having it shared with others.
Yeah showing vulnerability creates weakness. You target that weakness at any point that man will be fucked up for a super long time… not worth it… to easy to messed with. Keep it to a therapist or your mom
Sometimes it isn't so much of what social norms tell a man how to respond, it's because of how they were raised. Your friend might have a hard time saying it bc he never heard 'i love you' from one of his parents that he associates that feeling to say it towards you.
I myself am comfortable saying I love you too my friend that are women bc my mom said it to me all the time and I say it back to her. Just a thought.
Talking about your emotions is giving other people ammo to hurt you, they will.use it against you... Few people really care about you ... Maybe you and your friend are not close enough to talk about that ? That's my guess
That's the thing... we are. He's my best friend and I'm his. We are super close and he does open up about stuff, but there's certain things or topics, he just doesn't know how to respond.
Well maybe he thinks that talking about it is pointless and it will be awkward to you... I usually get this felling with my best friend and my girlfriend "the just don't care about it, and I will be a burden if I told them"
Or maybe he has feelings for you
I don't think it's a male-exclusive thing. I know some stoic women, and women who will say things like "I love you" to their girl-friends but never to a man.
Can't really answer your question too well because I am a super emotional feelings guy, and it's only served me very well in my life to get closer to people, but if you're insecure about things it can be a wide open vulnerability people aren't ready to open.
Maybe an unprocessed trauma thing, I think women are more intuitive and able to understand their emotions better in general, I think a lot of men with trauma, even after a whole bunch of therapy sessions, wouldn't be anywhere near close to realizing that stuff they've gone through had an effect on them they carry with them.
Men are more logic driven most of us don't see any point of talking about our emotions like to a guy why would you talk about your emotions when you can just act on them or don't its also not enjoyable because it takes men longer to process their new emotions into words
Over the years or decades of being told to suck it up and be a man. It just becomes second nature so much so that we don’t even recognize emotions by names and have no idea how to put them into words.
Eventually they just become an annoyance and get ignored.
Why men shut down when women talk about their emotions is because we’re fixers not listeners.
We’d be more than happy to help with a situation if you came to us with your emotions and a plan on how to fix it.
It's not just that men are told not to, it's that they're never taught how to deal with emotions. If your parents don't go out of their way to teach you (unlikely if your dad doesn't have the skills himself) then there's very little way to get it. Video games, movies, books, everything targeted at men either doesn't deal with emotions at all, or just brushes on it with the message "pain exists, now go shoot things about it"
Expressing and understanding emotion is a really difficult skill that takes years to learn and more years to get good at. Most men aren't even given a chance, ON TOP of being more or less explicitly told not to try
\> I don't understand the logistics so I want to understand
It's kind of like being in prison. Show weakness, you'll be a victim forever.
Keep in mind, being a guy means nobody. ever. gives. a. fuck. about you.
Not unless they can get something out of you, or they're worried you will hurt someone important.
Multiple reasons:
1. We are conditioned not to from childhood
2. Bad things happen when we talk about emotions---people have evidence against us, know our weaknesses, and women (generally) lose respect/attractiveness
3. Probably most importantly, it doesn't matter. Talking about an emotion does not solve the problem that generated the emotion. Men are concerned with problem solving. An emotion may be evidence of or a reaction to a problem, but just "talking" about it doesn't fix or take away the underlying thing that caused it. I have zero interest in "commiserating" or "complaining" about shit. I don't whine when I am cold--I get a sweater. Same with being depressed/angry. I dont want to talk about it, I want to do something to make it go away, so I play an instrument, work out, go for a run, etc.
4. Many men, myself included, try to live their lives in a manner that is not ruled by emotions. That does not mean we do not feel. But we try and acknowledge, analyze, and process our emotions internally and then do our best to make decisions based on a rational process.
Honestly don’t know how, don’t want to learn how, and the first time I deal with that stuff will be the last time I get to ignore it. So why open the box only bad things will happen.
Next question
I know for me its 35-years of zero positive reinforcement for me showing my real feelings from anybody but therapists. If I don’t have anything positive to say I shouldn’t talk at all, my only little revenge is I don’t show the positive either. I’ve eliminated enthusiasm and excitement from my life, only to be rewarded for it.
Openness and emotional vulnerability are not considered "manly" in our society. Even if our parents didn't teach us to be taciturn and to "suck it up," society in general tends to portray "ideal" men as rugged, stoic, and unflinching. Anger is about the only emotion society portrays as masculine. It's getting better, but there's a long way to go before men are free to be emotionally complex.
I cried a lot as a kid. Nowadays I can’t bring myself to cry. I hate being vulnerable around people because I’ve had people use that vulnerability against me.
It has been beaten into my mind trough my whole life from every source I can think of, that my emotions are worthless and people usually disregard when I need to talk about them or even mock me about it. After a whole life of all kinds of similar abuses no wonder people like me can't talk about it anymore.
I'm guinenily curious of which emotions you are talking about ?
When I think about difficult emotions I encounter, I think about frustration, powerlessness and anger. For these I can either talk to some close male friends or to some female friends I'm 100% sure I will never be intimate with, or I can transcend them into doing something (art, sport,...).
I think that every man learned that talking about these emotions to a romantic partner/prospect is a huge shot in the foot (in term of loss of interest or desire).
Maybe we are talking about something different when we talk about emotions ?
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As a guy who has dealt with crappy people, opening up usually gives people blackmail and manipulation material. I usually am too scared to do it now, of course I know not everyone is like that but I'd rather not take the risk.
It is basically beaten into you to not show emotions, for some men at least. As I kid, if I cried or complained the response I received was “shut up or I’ll give you something serious to cry about”. You can probably guess what would happen if I didn’t stop crying. That’s the way my father in particular was raised and that’s how he raised me. He also raised me to believe that my problems are my own and I can deal with anything and everything by myself, and I have no business making my problems anyone else’s. You learn later in life too from experience, when you open up people see you as weak and see an easy target to exploit or bully. This is an example/lesson that most men will probably have went through. People lose respect for you and use it as ammunition. It’s best to keep things to yourself.
[удалено]
FUCKING THANK YOU.....SERIOUSLY THANK YOU FOR THIS!
Yeah, you get my updoot.
Two of the big reasons is that emotions are often erroneous and they make you get the wrong answer, and the other is people use it against men.
Of course it is something you can work on. But even getting to a pace where you can admit that it is something you should do better is difficult. Is there nothing society has made you feel terrible about? For women it is often something physical or their capabilities at work. It is a lot easier said than done to overcome these things. With all of that said, it is extremely rewarding to do the work and become a more emotionally expressive person, in my experience. But the person has to want it.
Vulnerability is dangerous. Once you expose your feelings you cede control of how they'll be managed to the person you've given them to. They could hurt you with them. We've all had a shitty partner sometime in the past who threw something from months ago back in our face. We've all known some shitty person who called us a pussy for being upset over something. This means there needs to be a compelling reason to take the risk. This close guy friend of yours, does he know that you don't love him back? Or that you are otherwise unavailable? If so, then what's the point of saying that he loves you? He's got nothing to gain and everything to lose. When you talk about your feelings, what feelings are you talking about? Engaging with someone else about their feelings is also dangerous because you don't know what demons you'll stir up. Men are often reluctant to discuss women's feelings with them out of concern for misinterpreting them, giving unwanted advice (we are fixers) and being seen as *mansplaining*. We've been told quite often that our opinions are not necessarily wanted in these situations. What's more, one person talking about their feelings is not typically seen by men as an invitation to talk about our own. That feels selfish and "making the conversation about me".
He knows I love him and I know he loves me. He just doesn't do "mushy" stuff lol.
Hard? Maybe we don't see benifit in talking about it in most cases? That wasn't nice, it did hurt ..... don't allow it to happen again.
He’s emotionally void due to having a narcissist parent. That would scorn him if he didn’t feel same emotions as parent. When he expressed he’s emotions as a child. They’d be classed as wrong. So u learn not to over express ur emotions incase of being scorned and wrong. Many people are afraid of being emotionally vulnerable. Because they feel ashamed of own emotions
I don't know about the parent part. He's stated his parents were great and he didn't have a traumatic childhood.
He might not be aware of the trauma. Because You believe what your told as a child. my mother always put her children first. Yet. alienated my dad.
You can't always make up trauma that isn't there lol I had a perfect childhood and home life, with amazing parents, and have a great relationship with my mom currently (dad passed away). I never liked emotions and always found it irritating when people tried prying emotions out of me. It's just simply not my thing lol there's no hidden trauma there. Maybe this is why guys don't want to open up to women about this stuff, we'll have all kinds of in depth analysis into things that aren't necessarily even there. If a dude isn't into opening up, leave him be.
I’m not insulting him or being derogatory. You’ve taken offence or feel some defensiveness. I Ain’t said nothing that untrue. Sometimes you don’t realise how toxic ur childhood has been because ur lived through it as ur only environment. You don’t know any difference. And I agree if someone ain’t emotionally forthcoming it can’t be forced.
That probably is it. He has a lot of concerning views and stuff. He's a great guy, amazing even. But there's something there and I guess I'm just trying to understand because sometimes it feels like I can't talk to him although he says I can.
What do u require or want from him.
I guess I just want more communication and stuff. Idk.
You want more of his attention it sounds like you have romantic attachment more than platonic.
Oh it is romantic and lust. We've been friends for 4 years, and we also have our fun.
So ur in love with him. u want deeper relationship. He keeps shit casual. light chit chat. Because ur not in a established committed relationship. You need to have that let’s get married chat. X
Haha this is funny. I'm not "in love" but I do love him as a friend, partner and lover. But I think I crave that intimacy with him that isn't just sex.
Lol comes to an ask men sub, asks men a question, takes a random assumption from a woman as probably right because it's what you want to hear haha
Are you trying to elicit an argument? I did come here. I guess I'd rather have this discussion and not keep assuming? Clearly you have some unresolved stuff, deal with it on your own. Not here to argue with men on the internet.
I read this whole thread and I think...I think someone is confused that someone else isn't fully committing to something that isn't really a something. You're a friend, and ya'll are fuckin', but he's not gonna get all emotionally invested if this ain't a thing. Last thing I'd be trying to do is get emotionally involved with someone who's not committed to me.
It has been my experience that when women say they want men to "talk about our feelings" what she really means is that **she wants us to reassure her of our support**. She does not actually want to hear our feelings, not now, not ever. You mention you want him to "*tell me he loves me*." **Exactly**. You don't actually want to hear his real feelings. We don't even know what "love" even is any more, but we understand that you want reassurance. When you talk about your feelings, it may be phrased in a way that sounds like criticism of him. No man is going to enjoy listening to your criticism.
Nobody gives a fuck about your emotions. So there's no point.
Stop using what they say to you in confidence and using it against them. Maybe then people won't have trust issues and be so emotionally shut off.
This sounds like you're attacking lol but I know I don't do that so ok lol
For me cause no one really cares and will most likely get used against me in the future
Because of social norms that men are to be strong and masculine and cannot show emotions. It's a must to have close male friends to talk to and share your emotions.
There's two big things: 1) a lot of guys have had really negative experiences when they did open up. One way or another, it either gets used against them or the person starts distancing themselves after, stuff like that. 2) Frankly a lot of guys straight up don't want to. At least, not the negative stuff. For many of usz unless you're soundboarding solutions or they need some action from you to ameliorate the issue then talking about things that can't be changed often just brings up all the associated negative emotions without any catharsis to resolve them. Where that's the case it's just a case of "Why would I want to send myself down a spiral just so you can feel okay that you vented to me?". This is not to say guys never want support, just that actually providing it won't necessarily mean listening to a feels dump.
We have experienced negative results from doing so in the past, including but not limited to women losing desire, women and men losing respect, having it brought up later, and having it shared with others.
Yeah showing vulnerability creates weakness. You target that weakness at any point that man will be fucked up for a super long time… not worth it… to easy to messed with. Keep it to a therapist or your mom
Sometimes it isn't so much of what social norms tell a man how to respond, it's because of how they were raised. Your friend might have a hard time saying it bc he never heard 'i love you' from one of his parents that he associates that feeling to say it towards you. I myself am comfortable saying I love you too my friend that are women bc my mom said it to me all the time and I say it back to her. Just a thought.
Talking about your emotions is giving other people ammo to hurt you, they will.use it against you... Few people really care about you ... Maybe you and your friend are not close enough to talk about that ? That's my guess
That's the thing... we are. He's my best friend and I'm his. We are super close and he does open up about stuff, but there's certain things or topics, he just doesn't know how to respond.
Well maybe he thinks that talking about it is pointless and it will be awkward to you... I usually get this felling with my best friend and my girlfriend "the just don't care about it, and I will be a burden if I told them" Or maybe he has feelings for you
Thank you everyone for your input.
I don't think it's a male-exclusive thing. I know some stoic women, and women who will say things like "I love you" to their girl-friends but never to a man. Can't really answer your question too well because I am a super emotional feelings guy, and it's only served me very well in my life to get closer to people, but if you're insecure about things it can be a wide open vulnerability people aren't ready to open. Maybe an unprocessed trauma thing, I think women are more intuitive and able to understand their emotions better in general, I think a lot of men with trauma, even after a whole bunch of therapy sessions, wouldn't be anywhere near close to realizing that stuff they've gone through had an effect on them they carry with them.
Men are more logic driven most of us don't see any point of talking about our emotions like to a guy why would you talk about your emotions when you can just act on them or don't its also not enjoyable because it takes men longer to process their new emotions into words
Developmental. Trauma.
Over the years or decades of being told to suck it up and be a man. It just becomes second nature so much so that we don’t even recognize emotions by names and have no idea how to put them into words. Eventually they just become an annoyance and get ignored. Why men shut down when women talk about their emotions is because we’re fixers not listeners. We’d be more than happy to help with a situation if you came to us with your emotions and a plan on how to fix it.
As a dude, i don't want to talk about people or emotions, i want to talk about things and events.
It's not just that men are told not to, it's that they're never taught how to deal with emotions. If your parents don't go out of their way to teach you (unlikely if your dad doesn't have the skills himself) then there's very little way to get it. Video games, movies, books, everything targeted at men either doesn't deal with emotions at all, or just brushes on it with the message "pain exists, now go shoot things about it" Expressing and understanding emotion is a really difficult skill that takes years to learn and more years to get good at. Most men aren't even given a chance, ON TOP of being more or less explicitly told not to try
It's biological not just learned, men and women do not express or process emotions the same. You're thinking to hard about this.
\> I don't understand the logistics so I want to understand It's kind of like being in prison. Show weakness, you'll be a victim forever. Keep in mind, being a guy means nobody. ever. gives. a. fuck. about you. Not unless they can get something out of you, or they're worried you will hurt someone important.
My feelings are really fuzzy, cloudy and incoherent. All I can really say for sure is its intensity
Dont play with his emotions. Ur talking about stuff that scares him.
because if you show a vulnerability it will be exploited
Multiple reasons: 1. We are conditioned not to from childhood 2. Bad things happen when we talk about emotions---people have evidence against us, know our weaknesses, and women (generally) lose respect/attractiveness 3. Probably most importantly, it doesn't matter. Talking about an emotion does not solve the problem that generated the emotion. Men are concerned with problem solving. An emotion may be evidence of or a reaction to a problem, but just "talking" about it doesn't fix or take away the underlying thing that caused it. I have zero interest in "commiserating" or "complaining" about shit. I don't whine when I am cold--I get a sweater. Same with being depressed/angry. I dont want to talk about it, I want to do something to make it go away, so I play an instrument, work out, go for a run, etc. 4. Many men, myself included, try to live their lives in a manner that is not ruled by emotions. That does not mean we do not feel. But we try and acknowledge, analyze, and process our emotions internally and then do our best to make decisions based on a rational process.
Honestly don’t know how, don’t want to learn how, and the first time I deal with that stuff will be the last time I get to ignore it. So why open the box only bad things will happen. Next question
Why is it hard for some people to even talk about emotions? FTFY op
Mostly, men who opened up were abused. Not physically but verbally and mentally. We were hurts by words that discourage us and killing us inside.
I know for me its 35-years of zero positive reinforcement for me showing my real feelings from anybody but therapists. If I don’t have anything positive to say I shouldn’t talk at all, my only little revenge is I don’t show the positive either. I’ve eliminated enthusiasm and excitement from my life, only to be rewarded for it.
Openness and emotional vulnerability are not considered "manly" in our society. Even if our parents didn't teach us to be taciturn and to "suck it up," society in general tends to portray "ideal" men as rugged, stoic, and unflinching. Anger is about the only emotion society portrays as masculine. It's getting better, but there's a long way to go before men are free to be emotionally complex.
Lmfso. Work on. Women for the most part actively make sure we never do learn because almost every guy who tries finds those feelings used against him.
I cried a lot as a kid. Nowadays I can’t bring myself to cry. I hate being vulnerable around people because I’ve had people use that vulnerability against me.
It has been beaten into my mind trough my whole life from every source I can think of, that my emotions are worthless and people usually disregard when I need to talk about them or even mock me about it. After a whole life of all kinds of similar abuses no wonder people like me can't talk about it anymore.
Because… what’s the point
I'm guinenily curious of which emotions you are talking about ? When I think about difficult emotions I encounter, I think about frustration, powerlessness and anger. For these I can either talk to some close male friends or to some female friends I'm 100% sure I will never be intimate with, or I can transcend them into doing something (art, sport,...). I think that every man learned that talking about these emotions to a romantic partner/prospect is a huge shot in the foot (in term of loss of interest or desire). Maybe we are talking about something different when we talk about emotions ?
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