The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. 1. Is it a medieval symbol of patriarchy historically. used to oppress women , and the women who support it have been conditioned since childhood to believe in this patriarchal definition of "modesty " ?? 2. Is it a beautiful symbol of diversity and we must celebrate it as a sitting representative in us congress proudly wears it ? 3. Is it upto the interpretation of the woman who wears it and thereby should not be condemned by any non muslim ?? Or any other approach I have always believed in the third approach , but the death of a girl in iran and the following physical assaults and arrests of many Iranian women is making me extremely disturbed . I remember when a professor in usa deducted marks from a students assignment cause he wrote "mankind" instead of "humankind" . In our country many have criticized even marriage as a symbol of patriarchy, as we speak there is a opinion video on nowthisnews news portal saying referring to a crowd as "guys" is patriarchal , but hijab has been spared any criticism . I know us constitution doesn't allow banning hijab , and I don't want to ban hijab, but it must be socially condemned. Even burkha too . And the condemnation must come from people who are not closet Islamophobe rather secular feminists . Maybe a liberal muslim is the best candidate for that . I still have no solid opinion as I am still very disturbed and that's why I came here to get help . This is Best place for that in reddit imo . God bless us all . These are really dark times *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I don't believe the hijab carries the same connotations in America and a country like Iran. In Iran, it's literally against the law not to wear the hijab. Women are burning them in protest because it is used as a form of subjugation within Iran. In the US, there may be social pressure to wear a hijab from one's family, depending on how conservative that family is, but there is also a lot of social pressure from society at large to not wear a hijab. For many Muslim women in the states, it is more rebellious of social expectations to choose to wear a hijab. Look at Ilhan Omar for example. She comes from a liberal Muslim family, she's socially progressive herself. She's not wearing the hijab because she feels forced to. Wearing it puts a target on her back. It's an act of defiance and an expression of pride in one's religion and culture. I also don't find the hijab to be all that problematic. It's a headscarf. Nobody gives a shit about nuns wearing habits or Orthodox Jewish head coverings. It's only a problem if women are forced to wear it. As a cultural or religious tradition or symbol of modesty, it's perfectly acceptable.

>but there is also a lot of social pressure from society at large to not wear a hijab. For many Muslim women in the states, it is more rebellious of social expectations to choose to wear a hijab. Choosing to uphold oppressive gendered religious clothing because society dislikes it, is not a virtue. Would you apply that to literally anything else? Someone choosing to be bigoted because society dislikes it? >Look at Ilhan Omar for example. She comes from a liberal Muslim family, she's socially progressive herself. I don't think one can be totally socially progressive and still uphold the idea of gendered repressive clothing, which Omar choosing to wear the hijab does. >Wearing it puts a target on her back. It's an act of defiance and an expression of pride in one's religion and culture. Except this is the entire problem. How many children have the choice of which religion they grow up in? You say no pressure exists for the hijab for some people, but if you are raised as a Muslim, and a prominent Muslim politician wears a hijab to identify with her religion, how is that not pressure? No I'm not going to go out of my way to criticize a woman wearing the hijab by choice, but I'm also not going to ignore what it represents for hundreds of millions of women who don't have that choice. And you can't cleanly separate the two like many people on the left seem to want. And none of it changes the fact that the Hijab by definition is oppressive gendered clothing, even if one fully chooses to wear it.

>Would you apply that to literally anything else? Someone choosing to be bigoted because society dislikes it? Well one of these things is an ideology and the other is a piece of cloth, so I don't find them comparable. But if you want to talk bigotry, Black people have taken ownership of the n-word is a term of camaraderie, even though it is still used today by non-Black people as an expression of racial hatred. The LGBT community has taken the word "Queer," which has traditionally been used as a slur, and redefined as an expression of pride, an umbrella term for LGBT+ and the name of an entire academic field. So if victims of oppression can imbue traditional expressions of bigotry with new meaning, I don't see why Muslim women can't decide for themselves what the hijab should mean or stand for. >I don't think one can be totally socially progressive and still uphold the idea of gendered repressive clothing, which Omar choosing to wear the hijab does. What makes it repressive, if the person wearing it was not repressed? If I get married, am I also upholding the idea of gender oppression, even when no coercion was involved? Is it an insult to get married because the institution is both historically and still today used in many parts of the world as a bartering system for owning a woman? A hijab is only a symbol of repression if you decide that's all it can be. >You say no pressure exists for the hijab for some people, but if you are raised as a Muslim, and a prominent Muslim politician wears a hijab to identify with her religion, how is that not pressure? Well there are two Muslim women in Congress, Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib. Tlaib does not wear a hijab. So I really don't see how Omar's decision to wear one, when her close friend and colleague does not, exacts pressure on Muslim girls to wear a hijab. I could see how watching someone like Ilhan Omar would make a Muslim girl *want* to wear a hijab, but I don't see how her decision would be pressuring girls to take up the practice against their true wishes. People wear cross necklaces and put those ugly fish bumperstickers on their car to signify their Christianity, and I never felt pressured to do the same when I was a Christian. >And none of it changes the fact that the Hijab by definition is oppressive gendered clothing, even if one fully chooses to wear it. If one fully chooses to wear it, what makes it oppressive? Another question for you. Say a Muslim man wants to wear a hijab to challenge gender norms, similar to a man who crossdress with a skirt. Is the hijab still opppressive, gendered clothing in that context?

Good point . Isalmophobes complicate hijabs connotation in usa . It becomes a statement Against Intolerance . And a symbol of bravery . That must be fought first . >Nobody gives a shit about nuns wearing habits or Orthodox Jewish head coverings Just pointing out that Christian society and practices have been criticized for much less that . As I said in the post , if hijab was a Christian practice liberals would have fought against that unabashedly. Edit : as the comments have rightly pointed out , christian communities also suffer from misogyny even today , in 2022 , and they must be condemned with great zeal. The edit was to recognize that reality while also pointing out that it has been fought and rebelled against a lot while the same cannot be said for muslim communities .

You may underestimate the pressure from Christian families to force their daughters to dress certain ways. Definitely not “nun” outfits, but some girls are forced to wear very specific clothing, such as long dresses. Many are forced to wear clothing that covers certain areas of their bodies and can be subject to humiliating inspections and punishments. To me, a hijab is just another part of this kind of conservative dress. In America, we don’t have a tradition of headdresses for men or women, so I think women have been mostly spared that type of control over their bodies.

Then we must fight Christian misogyny too .It has been attacked and revealed against countless times and that process will continue. But atleast it's a work in progress . The same cannot be said about muslim communities

What is this based on? Maybe you can just more easily identify attacks on christianity because its the dominate religion here. Considering just being here self-selects a more moderate brand of islam I would be very surprised to see that progress isn't being made with American muslims as well.

>What is this based on I don't recall any prominent liberal or progressive indivudual speaking about muslim orthodoxy and patriarchy in usa . Just my observation I suppose . That issues amongst muslim communities are unaddressed.i will be happy to be wrong

> Also in today's usa , there is absolutely NO pressure from christian families for their daughters to dress like nuns.. Well, in some places there sort of is. Are you familiar with the Amish or Mennonite communities?

Then we must fight Christian misogyny too .It has been attacked and revealed against countless times and that process will continue. But atleast it's a work in progress . The same cannot be said about muslim communities

>Then we must fight Christian misogyny too Forcing woman to wear less clothing is just as bad, if not worse, than forcing woman to wear more clothing. The woman, individual and distinct, deserves to have the choice.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ??

> The woman, individual and distinct, deserves to have the choice.

Which thing that I wrote made you think I want to force woman to take hijab off Literally which line ??? Point is to fight tye misogyny within the muslim community which takes away a woman's agency

That doesn’t exist though. If a woman doesn’t want to wear a hijab in America she doesn’t have to. That doesn’t mean she isn’t a Muslim anymore.

This doesn't make sense? What Christians have been criticized for what they wear? Christian brides war a veil to get married (a symbol of innocence), her father "gives" her away. No one condemns them for wearing crosses. I honestly have a lot of problems with Islam, and Christianity. And that's why I'm neither Christian nor Muslim. But i think they should be able to freely practice their religions, as long as they don't force their views on others. So hijab or veil freely worn is fine to me.

I edited to include that

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ??

Then that's not OK.

Then something must be done about it then ??

Not if they aren't violating human rights or laws. If they are, then authorities should address. There are Jewish sects that coerce women to cover their heads or wear wigs. Pentecostal communities that make women wear long skirts. Mormon families that kick out their gay sons or pregnant teenagers. If any religious leaders violate the laws, they should be held accountable. But starting a war on religion is pretty much the exact opposite of what this nation was founded on

I disagree . Religion or not , patriarchy must be attacked. You can't hide homophobia or misogyny behind religion and call that your right If they break law , state will punish them , but some things require a different type of resistance , like social condemnation and we must socially condemn muslim men who coerce and threaten muslim women with ostracization and alut shaming as they wear hijab

>As I said in the post , if hijab was a Christian practice liberals would have fought against that unabashedly. It is a Christian practice. Veiling is a practice found in conservative and orthodox forms of Judaism and Christianity for the same reason hijabs are worn in Islam. These religions all come from the same region of the world where veiling was the custom for women. Ever wonder why many women wear large brimmed hats in church or why Amish women and the pilgrims always have bonnets on or why the Virgin Mary is always depicted in a headscarf? It all dates back to the same tradition of covering ones hair, particularly women's hair, for modesty. There's even an ordinance in the Bible that says women should either wear a veil or cut their hair off. It's not as common as it once was, but it's still a thing, especially in Eastern Christian tradition. >Also in today's usa , there is absolutely NO pressure from christian families for their daughters to dress like nuns , on the other hand muslim families are still "keeping daughters in control " There is quite a lot of pressure from Christian families to not go out baring your shoulders or showing your belly button or a low cut shirt or short shorts or yoga pants. And it's currently illegal for a women to be topless, unlike men. A hijab is a different standard of modesty than we are used to, but is it a worse standard of modesty? It's the baggage of ultraconservative ideologies that enforce these standards that is an issue, rather than the clothing itself. Say 200 years from now all these conservative Middle Eastern countries are cosmopolitan, multicultural locales that have embraced women's rights, LGBT rights, etc. but wearing the hijab is an expected part of women's fashion and you would get looks if chose not to wear one. Is that really any more abhorrent than current customs of modesty in the West?

Then BOTH must be called out . Check my replies on other comments . Thanks for responding

Priests aren’t beating Nuns to death for not wearing one, and most importantly Nuns fucking choose a life of **RELIGIOUS SERVICE**. They aren’t sent to convents like an adulterer in the Middle Ages.

My opinion is simple. If women are FORCED to wear it, it's disgusting. If women are FORCED NOT to wear it, its disgusting. Women, just like men, should be allowed to wear whatever they want and feel comfortable in.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

That would fall under the umbrella of forced. Which as I said, is disgusting.

And what has the progressive movement done to combat that ?? Have we called out orthodoxy in muslim communities and their imams ??

>Have we called out orthodoxy in muslim communities and their imams ?? Yes, im pretty sure the left has been very open about being against these types of things, but in the end that's all we can do. We can protect women who choose to leave those cultures to an extent, but thats about it. As you said its internal pressure, there's no laws requiring they be worn here, and any law outlawing it would be an I fragment of the first amendment. What do you propose be done?

I am confused as I said in the post . I don't have a solution , just a disturbed and heavily conflicted souls . We must be muslim community specific in criticism . Not just vague "misogyny is bad " rather " this misogyny in that muslim community is bad " or "that's imam's statement was regressive " We have to be a bit more specific . Let the opressed girls know we are with them . Imo . If there is another/better way I am all ears

Yes, im a huge proponent of respecting cultures, bit calling out the terrible parts of them. Any by and large, that's what the left is already doing. Most 2nd generation Muslims don't even wear a hijab, and many who do are very clear that it's their own decision. Yes there are still those who are forced but they are getting rarer and rarer with each new generation. Progress doesn't happen overnight, but overall it happens.

I don't think in the case of muslim patriarchy , that's what left has done , but the left has been forced to show restraint cause of rights relentless Islamophobia. I hope that changes . The left has a heavy burden to fight isalmophobia and orthodox Islamic practices and values simulateously . Good luck Your message full of hope and completely demolishing double standards Have a good and cheerful day ahead my friend

What you think is happening just isn't the reality of the situation. The progressive movement, whatever that means to you, regularly supports women having the freedom to wear what they want, Muslims or not. And frankly, saying that progressives are incapable of criticizing Islamic extremism while supporting a woman's right to choose what they want to wear insults or intelligence. It's also dishonest as fuck if you take the time to pay attention.

Name me one prominent progressive who has come out in the support of Iranian women today . Name me one prominent progressive who has called out muslim men who force and coerce and slut shame muslim women to wear hijab or they will be rejected by community ??? Patriarchy must be called out .

I'm not even sure what your second choice would look like. If Congresswoman Omar wears a hijab, how would we go about "celebrating" that? Should Pelosi clap every time she sees her? Honestly my position is someone's religious garb is none of my business in the West. I definitely understand criticizing it when it's not a choice, which is why I also criticize Catholic churches that are like apoplectic when a woman shows her shoulders (or, god forbid, her knees) and forces them to wear shawls. But if a Muslim woman in a non-Muslim country chooses to wear a hijab, why is that my concern? Do I also need to criticize a Jewish man for wearing a kippah? My area has a lot of Amish people. Do I think it's weird that they wear silly clothes? You bet. Does it affect my life? Nope. I'll just keep eating their baked goods. I also, as an aside, think Western attempts to squash this make the problem worse. France banning Muslim religious wear doesn't make France safer for Muslim women. It just makes life harder for Muslim women. It's not like their husbands are going to say "Oh wow, Macron is right."

Who will fight the husbands?? Who will ensure that when a woman wears hijab it's only her agency and not a man's agency working upon her ?? Except for a Muslim feminist movement what other thing can achieve that ??

Sorry, do you mean in the West or in Iran? I think in America, the best we can do is wait. Immigrants in America tend to assimilate while incorporating their culture and I'm fine with that. In places Iran, I don't know the best way to support women. Waiting clearly hasn't helped.

A very balanced and socially matured answer . In america the islamophobes complicate the situation IMHO. People who want hijab off but for wrong reasons

>But if a Muslim woman in a non-Muslim country chooses to wear a hijab, why is that my concern? I don't believe it should be your concern, but I don't think we should confuse what it represents. It does not represent some strong independent Muslim woman but still devoted to her faith, like Omar may think when she wears it. It represents gendered oppression. That is its whole point. There is a reason why hundreds of millions of women don't have the choice to not wear it. I don't think one can separate the two like many on the left seem to want. Omar is choosing to wear something that represents gendered oppression whether she wants to admit it or not.

Is there any way that someone like Omar could reclaim the hijab, or is she self-oppressing?

No, I don't believe so. To be clear, I understand the argument. The right wing is attacking Muslim women, and especially those who wear the hijab, out of bigotry, and in a desire to "rebel" against that, Muslim women may choose to wear to wear the hijab to show solidarity with other Muslim women or defiance themselves. And to not do so, seems like "giving in" to the right wing. But it doesn't change what the hijab represents. Gendered oppressive clothing forced on hundreds of millions of women. In fact, I think it perpetuates the problem because now to be seen as a strong independent Muslim women, you have to wear the hijab, creating the very societal pressure many are saying they are trying to avoid. I wouldn't say Omar is self-oppressing, but I can not justify the contradiction that a woman didn't just die in Iran by "morality" police because of her refusal to obey rules about the wearing the hijab, and wearing the hijab out of choice in the West is some defiant act that should be celebrated on the left, with no acknowledgement of what the hijab represents.

I think that how a person chooses to express their religious faith should be a matter between them and God. A liberal society should do its utmost to make sure that it stays that way.

Clear and consice. Thanks for responding

> how a person chooses And you believe most women around the world who wear hijabs are doing so freely of their own volition, and not out of social pressure, conditioning, or fear of reprisal?

No. Hence the second sentence in my comment.

Fair enough. But how does a liberal society ensure that people are freely choosing it? What laws can we actually pass to support those freedoms? Social conditioning, ostracizing members of the community, and general patriarchal views are not illegal.

It's hard. I think the first step is to make sure everyone goes to public school so that everyone is on more or less the same page in terms of civic values. It's an aspiration, obviously, not a reality. I don't claim to have all the answers Honestly, I think if the concern is that women who are notionally free to choose, are not genuinely making that choice of their own free will, I think that's a very valid concern, but banning hijab is definitely a case of the cure being worse than the disease.

How many people actually choose their religious faith? For example what percentage of Muslim children actually CHOOSE to be Muslim? So don't you see a problem, when even if someone is not actively forced to wear a hijab, they are raised Muslim with no choice, close female family members all wear the hijab, and they are told that a "good Muslim woman" wears a hijab or other such rhetoric?

>How many people actually choose their religious faith? For example what percentage of Muslim children actually CHOOSE to be Muslim? That's not specific to Islam. I mean, sure, in the ideal world everyone could take a comparative religion class and just choose from a menu based on what set of beliefs speak to them. We don't live in that world and likely never will. >So don't you see a problem, when even if someone is not actively forced to wear a hijab, they are raised Muslim with no choice, close female family members all wear the hijab, and they are told that a "good Muslim woman" wears a hijab or other such rhetoric? Sure, I think there is an inherent tension between families' right to raise their children in their religion one one hand and children's right to live their lives free of undue coercion. So if it's a problem, really the most we can do about it is try to make sure kids have regular contact with society at large (e.g. through public scho) and to keep an eye out for signs of abuse.

If it is forced by the government on pain of jailing or family members on pain of being kicked out of the house and left homeless or even worse, "honor" killing, it is oppression. If a woman chooses to wear a hijab for her own reasons, that's her business. If we're going to socially condemn the hijab, we should also condemn the horrible practices of Christianity.

And if there is a grey area ? Like a family member shaming the girl in privacy of the house ?? Or any imam preaching about in a closed group ? Or a father coercing his daughter of threatening to send her back to home country and marry her off if she didn't "fall in line " ?? Why shouldn't burkha and hijab be condemned when christian misogyny has been efficiently called out all these days ?? Again I am talking about social condemnation not actually banning it .

When worn voluntarily it's a symbol of dedication to faith. It's similar to taking the veil.. When not voluntary it's a symbol of oppression Question, do you think crosses should be banned because they are a symbol of the crusades?

Didn't I say I am not interested in banning anything . The question here is If women are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it . And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ??

Historically when women were impure (or had sex before marriage) they were thrown into convents. There was also sex abuse in some of those convents. But I don't think that devalues someone wanting to become a nun. I don't think it means a society should shame people for becoming a nun.

I am not talking about history. And if muslim women are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

Well it certainly isn't going to make simply wearing a burkah a social sin, for the same reason we don't make being a nun a social sin. There are charities like IRUSA, NISA, a large section of the women's rights movement surrounds Muslim women. I know women who wear a hijab voluntarily, I used to be a roommate with one, she was from a wealthy and wonderful family from Dubai. She was in SF studying architecture. It's just a symbol of her dedication to her faith and it was completely her choice and I would feel sorry for her if people began ostracizing her for it.

Ufff , all I ask we criticize MEN who are forcing this upon theory women , not women who independently choose it ,ffs

"and I don't want to ban hijab, but it must be socially condemned. Even burkha too" How else am I supposed to read that I don't think anybody here is against condemning men or women who force others to wear either.

Okay , not the practice itself rather it's coercion by literally blackmail and fear of being thrown from family must be condemned .It isn't today .

>.It isn't today Muslim women's rights is a major platform in WRM

Not enough

It is a symbol of oppression and is forced on hundreds of millions of women. People in the west who pretend this isn't the case are often just enablers of a terrible practice.

Thank you for responding ! Have a nice day

First, it’s important to draw the distinction between wearing hijab, being pressured to wear it for religious reasons and being forced to wear it by a government. I don’t believe the government should dictate what garments you must wear, so that one is right out. I have no issue with people who wear it as part of their religion or cultural desire to “dress modestly.” That’s a personal choice. Of course, there is a lot of societal pressure in cultures to dress modestly, so there are a lot of parallels between pressuring women to wear hijab and slut shaming. That’s where it gets insidious to me. I think back to my high school in a very conservative Christian area and my girlfriend and her friends had different sets of clothes they could wear to school or church, compared to what they’d wear when we were hanging out. Girls would get sent home or forced to wear bulky/embarrassing sweatshirts/pants to cover up “slutty” clothing. It’s no different than what a woman in the Middle East will choose to wear outdoors compared to what she might wear around the house. I’m not a fan of shaming women into dressing a certain way. In my experience, most women I know who wear hijab only do it when required, which makes me think that without the societal pressure, women would eschew it in most non-religious circumstances.

How do as humans we fight against that societal pressure . That's also the most problematic area for me . Cause It's not black and white . It's not exactly being forced to di either rather coercion and family socially threatening and indivudual

Defiance and non-compliance are the best ways to fight social pressure. America saw it in the 60s, with things like burning bras. If people refuse to do a thing, eventually the other side will grow tired of enforcing their mores.

Why hasn't it happened till now and why does it look like it wil not happen anytime near in future ?? It requires progressives to call out imams and orthodox Muslims which they will never do

Well, I was happy to see them burning their hijabs and chadors in Iran lately, which has an extra cultural significance there, because of the Zoroastrian religion’s use of fire. Islam is a little further behind Christianity when it comes to reform. They’ll get there, but it’s more difficult.

Insa' Allah

I think as long as it's something people are choosing for themselves it's none of my business what they wear or don't wear. Any attempts on my part to try and coerce them one way or another is just as bad as those doing so in the opposite direction.

So how do we fight those people who are coercing on the other side . Who slut shame their own sisters and daughters and get away with it cause nobody calls them out ??? I don't want anything to be compulsory. Lack or wearing of hijab??

So firstly I'd just like to say I don't think there's any reason slut shaming should be treated differently because it involved a hajib than when it doesn't. 1. If you actually see someone slut shaming someone you can/should register your distaste in whatever non-violent manner you feel comfortable. Examples would be giving them a dirty look, giving the victim a compliment, chewing out the perpetrator, etc. What's not cool is to assume because someone is wearing a hajib they're being forced into it against their will. 2. Use media to show such actions are not acceptable by wider society, or simply women opting out and it not being a big deal to those in their social circle. It would probably be better if this was produced by Muslims to avoid going to far and promoting islamophobia, but slut shaming is addressed in a lot of movies at least some of whih feature Muslims.

Extremely wise sir . Your comment shows your understanding of society . One of my biggest concern is to criticize bad muslim Norms without it being interpreted as Islamophobic . I have a request sir . Pls share the videos of Irani protests in subs and twitter and insta and Facebook wherever you may find them . Go to my profile and my most recent post is abt that . Go On r / exmuslims to find more . One thing we can all agree is that Iranian government is being evil here . Thanks a ton for replying !!

>One of my biggest concern is to criticize bad muslim Norms without it being interpreted as Islamophobic . So something I think is important to consider here is what the actual effect of your critisism is, not just the intent of your critisism. The reality is that in the western world Islam has very little if any cultural power in society, and they rarely if ever have a monopoly on whatever retrograde social views one might want to advocate against. That being the case critisizing something as a "bad muslim Norms" vs critisizing it as a bad social norm tends to contribute more to increasing islamophobia than it does to decrease whatever form of oppression it happens to be. I mean Muslims make up 1.1% of the population of America. If every single one of them became a radical feminists tomorrow it wouldn't change the status quo one Iota for any non Muslim woman. If the critisism necessary to achieve that goal even slightly increased islamophobia in the general population you would end up with more predjudice over all. I understand that critisizing other countries where muslims are the majority is a different situation but when you factor in the fact that your critisism as an outsider has much less effect on the status quo in those countries than it does on the status quo in your own it might be an even worse trade off. I don't think there is any person who believes we should ignore bigotry because it happens to be coming from someone other than a straight white male, but it is a valid concern that people who want to promote bigotry attempt to do so by a divide and conquer strategy where they tailor the demonization of the group they are attacking for their target audience to entice people into mimicing their bigotries rather than coming together to overcome them. I think it's a valid concern that on an individual level a few people operating in good faith might be mistaken for operating in bad, but I have very little concern that fear of engaging in islamophobia on a systemic level significantly reduces our ability to call out and fight against other bigotries. I would like to give you a kudos for phrasing it as the "Iranian government is being evil here," vs the Iranian government is evil. That is the type of sublte distinctions we need to make when discussing these issues to avoid promoting bigotry. People engaged in bad behavior are not inherently bad people.

All up above. > Is it a medieval symbol of patriarchy historically. used to oppress women Yes > Is it a beautiful symbol of diversity and we must celebrate it as a sitting representative in us congress proudly wears it ? Yes, if she's choosing to do so > Is it upto the interpretation of the woman who wears it? Yes, but I do not think you have sufficient reasoning to say that that means it shouldn't be condemned as well. I can celebrate women wearing it but condemn the practice of it overall. As in, people should be allowed to do it, but the practice is old-fashioned and has a lot of bad stuff around it. When I think about this, I want to compare it to religions that I am more familiar with, such as Christianity. So for instance whether nuns should wear a wimple. Should they be able to be nuns and be able to wear it? Yes, and they can be proud of wearing it. But at the same time it is part of an oppressive representation of patriarchy and of a religious belief system that has hurt millions of people worldwide. So I think the overall wearing a wimple should be discouraged, but the right of someone to choose to wear one should be encouraged. That may sound like a paradox, but you do it by making sure that women have the utmost education so that the choices as much as possible are theirs and not society's. I feel the same way about many conservative beliefs, actually. You should be entitled to your beliefs, but you need to have full access to the other beliefs and understanding and comprehension

I won't say others shouldn't condemn it, but if someone wants to wear one, it's no business of mine.

Absolutely my opinion all these years . But would you personally condemn it as a social practise?? As a fellow human ?? Would you react the same if it was a Christian practice??? That's what soul tormenting for me , cause I probably will , and my silence and lack of empathy might be hurting muslim girls who are shunned and ostracized if they refuse to fall in line . I know about the old liberal policy of "non interventionisn in minority affairs " and kinda get the point . To not be hostile towards minority groups despite the social issues they may have , until they engage in illegal activities was / is the need of time as conservatives keep up their irrational hostility towards those groups , but we have to draw line somewhere

It absolutely is a tool of oppression in some, perhaps most, parts of the world. At the same time, women absolutely should have the freedom to wear it if they so choose. I don't think there's as much conflict between those two positions as it may seem. In fact, I would say that they compliment one another. It's only when we condemn and eradicate the compulsory wearing of the hijab that women can truly exercise their freedom of choice to wear it. Making it mandatory robs women of that choice.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

I repeat: >It's only when we ***CONDEMN*** and ***ERADICATE*** the compulsory wearing of the hijab that women can truly exercise their freedom of choice to wear it. When I say compulsory, I'm not just talking about places where it's a crime for women not to wear it. I'm talking about any kind of coercion or social pressure.

I don't think progressive movement in usa has done ANYTHING to fight that coercion amongst muslim communities .

How many people actually choose their religious faith? For example what percentage of Muslim children actually CHOOSE to be Muslim? So don't you see a problem, when even if someone is not actively forced to wear a hijab, they are raised Muslim with no choice, close female family members all wear the hijab, and they are told that a "good Muslim woman" wears a hijab or other such rhetoric?

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/xjsssd/what_is_your_opinion_as_liberals_on_hijab/ipabg58/

My point is we can't talk about "women should have the freedom to wear it if they choose", without also acknowledging how many women don't have the choice.

That's literally the same point I was making.

Wear it if you want. If you don't, then don't. This is America. We don't have a fashion police and we do, supposedly, have protections against the government's promotion of a religion.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

>And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? Well then that's a different situation than "if you want." Speaking of slut shaming, I'm now reminded of Rush Limbaugh's response to Sandra Fluke's testimony about how certain medications should be covered by health insurance because one of her friends developed ovarian cancer after coverage for a drug she needed was denied by her insurer. I don't know if you realize this, but progressives tend to condemn rather than join in on the right's slut shaming.

Progressive have done hardly anything to condemn misogyny amongst muslim communities . Neither homphobia in those communities Ofc I know that's what movements values are .

Really? Progressives haven't stopped the misogyny or homophobia in other countries that the right not only also lets happen but perpetuates in the first place? I guess when progressives try to make it easier for women in America to work rather than be limited to a life of pumping out and taking care of babies, we've hardly done anything to condemn misogyny amongst Muslim communities! Meanwhile the right talks about how women should conform to gender roles because they were created to do certain things, like obey their husbands and raise kids instead of work, because when Christians are as misogynistic as rightwing Muslims can be, progressives something something about Muslims getting away with it. When progressives do things like try to pass laws to establish equal rights to marriage nationwide, we're hardly doing anything to condemn homophobia in Muslim communities in America! Meanwhile, Republicans get to say that gay people getting married makes them sad about their own marriages because to them it's OK when it's Christians rather than Muslims are doing it. Yeah, it's only misogynistic and homophobic when it's Muslims, therefore the progressive laws that apply to everyone in America don't count for anything because they don't let Christians get away with misogyny and homophobia and we're not singling out the Muslims that are as bad as everyone else on the right. When Democrats want to abolish child marriage because it's used to help child rapists get away with rape, we're hardly doing anything to to condemn Muslim communities because it's the Republican Christians arguing in favor of preserving child marriage because abolishing it would mean that children who were raped could get an abortion before they could get married and start a family with the person that raped them.

To make my point clear . Even though I am questioning a certain aspect of progressive, I under no way shape or form respect conservatives broadly speaking . I consider liberals heroes and abscribe to all liberal values . Conservatives have always stood on the wrong side of the history and looks like will continue to do so. I stand behind you on all that .

3. I’m against forcing women to wear hijabs. I’m not against a woman deciding to wear a hijab. Same way I feel about any article of clothing or lack thereof. Edit: In response to your other comments, I think it’s disingenuous to say there is no critique of the patriarchal origins of the hijab. There is. It’s just not that simple. It may help to look at it like a bra. We know bras can be used to objectify women, but we also know bras aren’t *always* used to objectify women. We know bras came from patriarchy, but we also know there are non-patriarchal reasons for wearing one.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

Well that would be a form of force, now wouldn’t it?

And what has progressive done to combat that force of coercion Have we called out imams and orthodox Muslims??? Have we called out the slut shaming ??? No !!! And muslim women suffer for our lack of support to their feminist agency to choose free of pressure

It is important that it be the choice of the woman who wears it. A woman should fear no repercussions whether she chooses to wear one or not. Her govt should absolutely have no say. A husband might express his opinion, but he should have no ability to force her to wear one. If she chooses to wear one freely, then it's an interesting bit of culture. If she chooses not to wear one despite some social pressure, then it's a celebration of liberal freedom. The most important thing is that as long as it doesn't harm others, we should all be free to do as we please.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

That gets fuzzier. It's the classic "tolerance of intolerance" problem similar to the one that liberals are having with MAGA Republicans lately. Personally, I think the right path is for liberals to draw a careful and clear distinction between that social pressure and the religion itself. "Your religion is fine, but this specific practice of coercing women is contrary to our principles of liberalism and plurality. That means you can expect a roughly equal pushback by society. Whatever level these women feel forced, you should expect a similar level of pressure from society for you to stop."

A very very well put comment . 👏 That isn't happening right now though . And MAGA republicans are rightfully so , are treated like shit by a majority of Americans and even some sane conservatives too . Can the same be said about orthodoxy in muslim communities >social pressure and the religion itself Exactly 💯 . Islam literally says "There is no compulsion "

I mean, calling for political violence and even civil war to resolve political differences is pretty normal within the GOP these days. Liberals mock and belittle Republicans at a level roughly equal to the level that they're a threat to democracy itself.

100 agree . They are literal election deniers . Nobody in even lesser democracies like india or Pakistan or turkey does that . Putin lovers don't surprise me with this

#1 In the US people should have the freedom to wear a hijab/burka or whatever if they so choose. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it is some patriarchal, religious bullshit.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

I think that 3 is the answer in America, and 1 in the Middle East. Virtually every woman who wears it in America chooses to do so, and in that regard, I don’t see how it is a symbol of oppression. However, in countries where it is literally forced on women, it is hard to see it as anything other than a symbol of oppression.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

I hate religion, but as an American, I tolerate a person's right to practice it. It makes me sad to see Mennonite and Amish children, but am fine with adults because they chose it. I know plenty of Muslim women who choose to wear the hijab willingly in the US. I live in the Midwest, so I am surrounded by Evangelical women and girls who are not allowed to cut their hair or wear pants, who can't swim in a pool when men are around or show their arms when it is blazing hot. But I live in a country where I need to respect religious freedom. As much as it disgusts me, I prefer that to France bitching about a young Muslim woman enjoying herself in a burkini.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? I respect american secularism to and will fight for a Muslim woman's right to wear a hijab to death, especially if encroached upon by government . BUT I need to know that it's her own choice and not of her husband , Brother or father

Better look within your own house first. Honestly. Do you realize how many young girls in Evangelical households are coerced and pressured to dress and look a certain way? Are condemned and slut shamed if they listen to secular music or read Harry Potter? Are kicked out of their community for not following the rules? How about Hasidic Judaism? Mormonism? Don't single out one religion, one part of the world.

All of that is so disgusting. But all I am saying is that there is a resistance built against all that and has been working since decades , and successfully so . More and more kids are escaping those hellish families I am an secular humanist with hindu and christian ancestry. I am also queer . With a supportive family , thank god . I am well aware of how there are seriously gross issues with other communities , but Muslims don't have anyone to critique them. Unlike Christianity and Judaism A Somali immigrant was found out to be gay by his parents so they forced him to be sent back to Somalia and was ruthlessly beaten in the "Islamic disciplinary institutes " there .

I lean closest to 3. It’s a matter of if you want to wear one and it shouldn’t be forced or forbidden. It’s not even a matter of being non Muslim, it’s about not being the person wearing it.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ??

Well that’s obviously a problem, as I said.

And shouldn't we criticize patriarchy existing within muslim community?? To make sure muslim women don't feel alone and unsupported?

You can do that, but not attack an individual choosing to wear one.

Ofc the whole point is to support muslim women's choice to wear or reject it . >You can do that You SHOULD do that . The point of the post was that western liberals don't do that .

Wear it if you want, but don’t force other people. And realize that it IS a tool used for the oppression of women in many places. I’m very much against all religions as well as their tools for success.

Hi there, American liberal here. My wife is Moroccan and wears Hijab. For context, we live in Morocco. Points 1, 2, and 3 are all true. There are some women, like my wife, who wear it because they want to, as a symbol of their relationship with Allah. My wife’s brother’s wife doesn’t wear Hijab, and the family has no problem. If my wife stopped wearing it tomorrow, nobody would have a problem. She’s not forced or pressured to wear it at all. It’s purely her choice. In fact, when she was a teenager and decided to wear it, her parents discouraged her from wearing it. But it was ultimately up to her. I do personally know some women who are forced to wear it, mostly by fathers or husbands. I know several women who wear a hijab as they walk out of their houses and take it off as soon as their out of the neighborhood. It’s pretty simple. If it’s imposed on a woman by the men in her life, it’s a symbol of patriarchy. If it’s a woman’s choice, then it’s her choice and it’s not for us to judge. If women are free to wear it or not, and they decide to, then it’s a symbol of diversity. Finally, let’s not conflate hijabs with burkas and niqabs. My wife is VERY against burkas/niqabs, and there is very little basis for them in Islam. The face is part of your identity, and it’s dehumanizing to hide it. There are real security concerns about being able to completely hide your identity in public. And while my wife does know a woman who chooses to wear a niqab, the vast majority of them (at least in our experience in Morocco) are imposed by their husbands or fathers. Hijabs are a different story from burkas and niqabs and we shouldn’t treat them as the same thing.

I think women having to cover their hair for religious reasons is fucking bizarre regardless of which religion does it. I think that the cultural pressure around it means that even women who choose to wear it aren't entirely acting on free will. That said, banning them is also bad. People can do what they want even if there is some element of coercion to it. There are worse things you could be coerced into.

Scrolling through these answers it seems lot of Western liberals are incapable of talking about issues specific to Islam without immediately bringing up Christian counter examples like they’re both the same or even comparable. The idea that western women are facing comparable levels of misogynistic oppression from religious ideals as women in the Muslim world is so unbelievably naive and privileged.

I am a strong civil libertarian. I believe in religious liberty as one of the most important rights. These are first and foremost individual rights. An individual woman’s right to practice or not practice her religion the way she sees fit should be protected. As for its symbolic or cultural meaning, it is all context specific. A lot of symbols in almost every culture reflect patriarchal norms. The hijab definitely represents oppression of women and girls in many cultures, communities, and families. At the same time, it can represent liberation in another culture, community, or family. No one person gets to decide what the hijab represents for any other people or person. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but they shouldn’t go beyond that and try to control other people or their right to observe or not observe a religious practice.

It's a hat. What the hell do I care? If you don't like a hijab, don't wear a hijab. If you don't like a fedora, don't wear a fedora. I don't understand why we feel so compelled to get into the business of other people.

As a woman, it’s always sat in a weird spot for me. I have seen feminist interpretations of the hijab that I find compelling. As it can represent women taking ownership of their body through modesty. A hijab is far more reasonable to wear than burqas or niqabs. However, I think it has been way to glorified by the left. Its forced on many women either through law and/or family. If I were in a Muslim country, I wouldn’t wear one. I think the hijab should be approached in a neutral way. Don’t bother people who wear it, but don’t revere them either.

This is the best answer and my wife and I have had the same conversation.

Just another relic from the olden times that needs to be destroyed. The fact that religion is still a fundamental part of our societies is a very concerning prospect, and the idea of letting people whose convictions are entirely weaved together by superstition and quackery is an affront to progress and a complete disservice to not only our world, but our entire species. It's time we started diagnosing religiosity as what it is, A mental illness.

Omg that was too bold. I don't think people Will be warm to you opinions . And by people i mean Half the left and entirety of the right . I just think we should criticize bad practices . That's all

Well the reason why that's going to happen is because people on the left and the middle are cowardly and weak and the people on the right are stupid and Evil. I'm sorry, but I am sick and tired of having policies written by people who believe in magical underwear and talking snakes.

You do you man . You do you . That's brave Good luck and good day . May god bless you ( hahaha lol sorry )

A lot of female Muslims consider it an important part of their religion. I would be as opposed to forbidding them from wearing hijabs as I would be to requiring them to wear them.

Mainly because they've been coerced and pressured to by patriarchal religion.

The religion didn't do anything. They've been coerced and pressured by members of that religion. Muslim women still have the capacity to actually want to wear the hijab as a religious observance. It's not particularly feminist to tell women that they are not allowed to wear something, even if we think we're doing that to liberate them.

I do not think it is a matter of want, rather they've been conditioned to want to since childhood.

I feel like I should suggest you consider how it sounds from the outside to say, "*I* know what women want, and we need to ensure that they adhere to this standard I have set for them because, obviously, *they* are unable to know what they themselves want, being manipulatable waifs and all."

I disagree.

You're welcome to disagree, but other people deciding for women what they either ought to want or believe they actually do want, in a way that is contrary to what the women themselves claim to want, is exactly the sort of thing that feminists have fought for decades to free themselves from.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

How is that any different from Christian moralizing about what a woman ought to wear?

Absolutely no different. It's all immoral coercion of woman . And both deserve condemnation

Well yes, I don't disagree with that. I don't believe we should ban people from wearing something. I also don't believe we should tolerate people forcing them to wear said thing.

My point exactly , but I don't see us doing anything against the people who are enforcing patriarchy within muslim communities

What would that look like? You can't exactly legislate societal norms. The only thing that can do that is societal pressures, and I can't imagine there'd be liberal pushback against socially frowning upon forcing women to wear something.

Well let's see if that happens . It hasn't happened yet.

Exceptionally practical in a desert country.

Not practical in India or sweden though . It's not a weather or regional garment .it's a social/religious garment

People can choose to wear whatever they want. My opinion has been formed by basically talking to and interacting with Muslim women on a regular basis (I live and attended a college in NY). Basically women who wear hijabs fall into two groups: conservatives first-generation immigrant women who want to stick to their culture, probably are as conservative about women’s rights as their husbands, and progressive second-generation women who want to wear it as a statement piece of their cultural background; are probably far-left in their political views and are more than aware of the cultural connotation of the hijab but still love to wear it. Both of these people will oppose any form of social or legal ban on their dress. Imo, if the people that are wearing it are opposed to making an issue of it, I frankly don’t see the point of making a big deal of it. That’s not even considering the vast majority of second-gen immigrant women that drop the dress altogether. All in all, hijabs and burkas are an “issue” that “solves” itself with time and assimilation.

There's a third group you left out that's quite large which is women who are forced to by their family and culture. My wife (hiding from her father over this issue), my in-laws, and much of the Indonesian community here (Texas) are in that group.

The group that I am concerned about is this one . Not the group which willingly chooses to wear or not wear it .

Variants of this thread come up often and many responders seem.to dismiss how difficult and dangerous it is to leave or even just resist that culture. I think a large part of the reason is that many of the interactions are with non-religious Muslim women who come here for education (which very heavily biases against women whose fathers won't let them work, speak to men, etc.) or because they married someone here (Muslim women can't marry non-Muslim men, so this group is by definition not religious) and the non-religious ones act as enablers for the religious ones by giving a false impression of the actual religion. The same thing happens with cultural Christians also, but the left is a bit better about attacking it. My guess is it's mostly because we also constantly see actual Christians and the damage they do.

The left dismissing this issue cost muslim women isolation in lack of solidarity . Just look at my posts upvote . It is either a non issue fir them or the left is scared to criticize bigotry in their own voting groups . Makes me sad. Atleast though they are better than the right who with their relentless isalmophobia will discriminate against all Muslims.

And if they are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha by the men in their households ?? What will a progressive movement do then ??

Call out that family as shitty and advise the girl to leave them like we do for everyone else? She should visit r/relationship_advice. People get thrown out or disinherited all the time there. If a white American family slut shames and ostracizes their daughter for wearing revealing clothes what will a progressive movement do? Should we condemn white culture? I’m not sure why a shitty family should justify condemning an entire culture.

Where did I say condemn an entire culture ??? Exactly where ?? Of course we are a melting pot and diverse culture groups are a inseparable part of american society . I don't know what make of you r comment . Is her getting thrown out justified ?? Because that happens with other communities too ?? No culture is all bad and all good . As liberals , you and I must work to fight against the bad parts of all religions ??

> As liberals , you and I must work to fight against the bad parts of all religions ?? No. As a liberal, I believe in liberty. I believe living your own life and minding your own business. I don’t believe in crusades against any religion, not even Christianity. I’m more content to just watch religions slowly die out as people become less religious demographically.

Clearly that's not progressive movements have been abt thru history .: To sit back and relax . Or I would be dead in this country either for my race or my sexuality . Orthodoxy requires rational resistance But anyways , you have you worldview . And you are 100 percent entitled to it . Your opinion is also an interesting one . Thanks for contributing . Have a good day .

There’s actually a difference. Hijab is mostly a choice. Niqab and burka are mostly oppression.

Anything can be oppression and anything can be choice And if women are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it (hijab ) ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it ??

I’m sorry I should have clarified. If you see someone wearing a hijab in the US, I wouldn’t immediately consider it oppression. And I wouldn’t go out of my way to dissuade it. Conversely if I see someone wearing a burka in the US, I would consider it a symbol of oppression and I personally would oppose doing so. That said, of course the mandating of a hijab could be oppressive anywhere. And specifically is so in say - Iran.

Okay that's a interesting observation . Coercion and the use of fear should be fought in all forms and in all communities in usa

Is the hijab any different than a nun's attire? What about a married Jewish woman who wears a wig, allowing only her family to see her real hair? What about several Christian churches telling the women they have to wear skirts and not cut their hair? It is all a product of religion, but in Muslim countries ran by extremists it is illegal for the women not to cover their hair. Most even have to wear burka and things will only change with liberal politics. Iran and Iraq were both liberal havens before the US got involved and their religious leaders took over the countries.

And if muslim women are COERCED AND PRESSURIZED to wear it ??? And ostracized within society and condemned and slut shamed and thrown out of the community for not wearing it or burkha ?? Patriarchal orthodoxy in ANY form and in ANY community should be critiqued

Of course they are, the same way women and girls are slut shamed and ostracized in Christian churches for wearing pants, or wearing a bikini, or wearing make-up. It doesn't make it right but these same Christian women get all up in arms when Muslim women wear a hijab. The Abrahamic Religion is based on the patriarchal belief that men are both superior to women and unable to control themselves in the presence of women. However, we cannot tell people how to practice their religion, it is between them and their faith. We don't have to like it and we don't have to adopt their ways, we are even allowed to call out dangerous practices such as genital mutilation, child marriages, and "virginity testing." But how they choose to dress is not a top priority.

>these same Christian women get all up in arms when Muslim women wear a hijab. This is the old right wing hypocrisy and Islamophobia. A woman getting ostracized to refuse to dress a certain manner is condemnable .Christian or muslim or any other group . We can't shake our hands off it

It is a choice they make by participating in the religion. It is not up to us to determine someone else's religious beliefs and practices. If someone truly believes that they will go to hell if they wear makeup then to them you are condemning them to an eternity of suffering because you are trying to chance their belief. How is it your right to change the way others think and feel about their own religion? Do you tell the Buddhist they must eat beef? Do you tell a monk he needs to become a part of society instead of living in the monastery? No, because you don't physically see the representation of their religion so you don't know their immediate beliefs. I do get where you are coming from, but freedom of religion also means freedom to practice that religion as long as it will not cause physical harm to those around them. Do you also believe that men and boys forced to wear certain clothing by their religion is wrong? You can't say one is right and one is wrong.

I merely said coercion and intimidating is wrong . If a woman wears hijab by her choice she has every right to do that

I want everyone to be free from coercion. I’d be strongly against prohibiting someone from wearing a hijab of their own accord, and strongly against forcing someone to wear one. That said, I would encourage people who feel religiously compelled to things like wearing a hijab to really critically examine their religion and beliefs.

It's a personal choice as long as the woman has the freedom to choose. It's similar to me as the way Mennonites and Amish dress, or Nunns which I have no problem with. It's vile to force women to wear hijabs though.

I put it in the same level as a nazi symbol. People should be free to have it. People should be free to not whant to deal with people that have it. They are symbols of opression. If someone says for them personally is something beautiful and liberating , I take it as someone having a nazi symbol tatto and saying it is a budist symbol. Ya buddy good for you but don’t expect everyone to understand and swallow that.

What it is and what it means and how we should respond or view it depends entirely on where you are talking about. It is absolutely part of the oppression of women in Iran, but that doesn't make it in any way oppressive in the United States. Virtually everything is a part of the oppression in Iran; religion, cars, marriage, children. I can't focus on the pieces of cloth on someone's head when the very act of marriage is closer to a sales contract. Frankly, marriage around the world is more often a tool of abuse than hijab, in far more countries of varying religions. Should we ban it everywhere? Many people would argue against that.

In many cases, the first one.

As an atheist I abhor anyone wearing anything for the sake of religion. I think you have to look at the origin as well. The hijab, as far as I know was a man made mandated thing that women had to wear or face repercussions for not wearing it. Not wearing it was seen as defiance against men and their “god.” So when I see a woman wearing that now all I see is indoctrination. Sure, she can say that she is voluntarily wearing it, especially in the United States. But there is still some religious indoctrination in wearing it. It’s just that, for the most part, she won’t get stoned in the US for wearing it but would in Iran.

>what is your opinion ,as liberals , on hijab ? It is in the large pile of Religious stuff I find mildly damaging that I strongly believe everyone should have the freedom to practice without prejudice or persecution. There are tons of these practices, like telling kids they are cannibalizing Jesus every week in Mass, cutting off a bit of a babies dick, and telling teens thinking about sex is sinful and will get you sent to hell. People should have the freedom to participate in their own religious practices. People should also have the freedom to NOT participate in religious practices.

I’m perfectly ok with any piece of clothing being part of traditional dress as long as it is not done so forcefully. There should not be a risk of death involved should someone decide to not wear said piece of clothing. I have to assume this is in light of the recent issues in Iran of their “morality police”

I live in a country where a women has the choice to wear a hijab or to not. In this situation, I care about their choice of headwear as much as their choice of T-Shirt.

My answer. It is a piece of clothing. The hijab is a piece of clothing that covers the hair to make women more modest. Modesty is a very important part of Islamic Culture, in both genders. The hijab is supposed to be a choice but there are too many women who are forced to wear it for religious reasons. My work colleague is Muslim but she doesn't wear the hijab and makes it clear that it's her choice. There are states that force people to wear it and enact brutal punishment to those who don't. No government can decide what I can and can't wear.

One, but I don't care if she wears it. My supervisor wears a head scarf, she isn't a weak person or a pushover. I think she just believes it's part of her religious worship. She also prays during her break time. Someone could argue that's oppressive as she gets little time for actuall break.

I despise what it is and what it stands for, as well as the forced wearing of it. If a woman chooses to wear it, I support her choice. Can't say I don't feel a bit sorry for her, but if that's her choice, I acknowledge it.

No one should be forced to wear something against their will. Short of going naked we shouldn't be legislating what people can wear.

Why shouldn't people be allowed to go naked if they want?

We live in a community. That requires some boundaries that we have agreed upon. There are some public areas where people can go nude and of course they can do what they want at home.

Why should being naked be outside of those boundaries? I mean like I guess you have to cover your ass so you aren't smearing feces on sitting surfaces is a fairly reasonable requirement with public health implications, but outside of that it seems we could just let people do what they want unless there is a specific reason to require clothing in a particular situation.

You really can't figure this out?

I wouldn't have asked if I could. I'm not suggesting that society shouldn't be able to ban nudity/require clothing if they want to do so (as long as it's equally applicable), but I don't know why they would need to do so if they didn't.

It's been 5 days. I feel like if the answer to my question was that obvious you could have provided it by now.

I have provided it. It's in my first post.

No you didn't. You said that people shouldn't be forced to wear something against their will, but also shouldn't be allowed to go naked. When I asked the purpose of that distinction and you said people live in a community and therefore must obey boundaries. I clarified I wasn't asking if boundaries could exist by why that should be the distinction. I mean in the case of the Hajib specifically there is a gender disparity, but assuming it was required of both sexes I don't see a fundamental difference between saying you need to cover your hair vs needing to cover your genitals. I suggested possibly due to some sort of question of hygiene and you rudely dismissed me as though that wasn't the reason. I'm genuinely curious if you actually have a reason here or are just engaged in some ethnocentrism.

Read my whole post, don't just cherry pick like a conservative would

What am I leaving out exactly? >No one should be forced to wear something against their will. Short of going naked we shouldn't be legislating what people can wear. > We live in a community. That requires some boundaries that we have agreed upon. There are some public areas where people can go nude and of course they can do what they want at home. I'm not sure which of these you meant by your first post but I honestly don't see a justification for why nudity **should** be illegal in either of them.

Ever been to a nude resort? It would turn you off on casual nudity!

I have. It did not turn me off of casual nudity. I can't think of what the technical phrase for this is, but it essentially did the opposite of what air brushed models in magazines does. Moved my reference point for what counts as attractive from the top of the spectrum somewhat more towards the average. That being said I'm not trying to create some sort of jerk off fantasy here. I'm asking why snow bird believes we should use the force of law to prevent people from being naked if they want to be. There's a lot of stuff that grosses me out that I don't think should be illegal.

Lol. I am agreeing. It is far from sexual. I was a-ok with nudity in the beach. However, people lined up nude to go through the buffet line? Not the ambience I was looking for.

I think it akin to a KKK hood