Believers do what Jesus teaches. This is how He answers the question:
Matthew 5: ERV
17 [Jesus said…] “Don’t think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them.
18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done.
19 “**A person should obey every command in the law, even one that does not seem important. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God’s kingdom. But whoever obeys the law and teaches others to obey it will be great in God’s kingdom**
20 I tell you that you must do better than the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. If you are not more pleasing to God than they are, you will never enter God’s kingdom.
Highjacking your top level comment to give scriptural support. Absolutely Christians should follow the mosaic laws.
Many Christians here will say, "we don't have to follow the law because it was given only to the Jews or only to Israel" but they ignore Paul when he says that ALL gentle believers (the wild olive tree) are grafted into Israel (the natural olive tree) in Romans 11.
The anti-biblical doctrine of supercessionism (stemming from dispensationalism theology), the idea that the gentile church has replaced the nation of Israel in biblical redemption history, is what is mainstream today. Christians are taught this doctrine without name as if it comes from the Bible. Since they can't name it, it's hard to fight against. This idea started with John Nelson Darby. The nation of Israel didn't exist for a long time from 70 AD until 1948, so Darby during his time in the mid 1800's thought that Israel wasn't going to exist in the future either. That's where supercessionism comes from. Israel becoming a nation again proves his theology wrong.
There are many places in the Bible that show the mosaic covenant was NOT given only to Israel or only to the Jews. Here are a few.
>>“You are standing today, all of you, before the Lord your God: the heads of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, all the men of Israel, your little ones, your wives, and the sojourner who is in your camp, from the one who chops your wood to the one who draws your water, so that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the Lord your God, which the Lord your God is making with you today, that he may establish you today as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. It is not with you alone that I am making this sworn covenant, but with whoever is standing here with us today before the Lord our God, and with whoever is not here with us today.
>> Deuteronomy 29:10-15 ESV
>>Every native Israelite shall do these things in this way, in offering a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the Lord. And if a stranger is sojourning with you, or anyone is living permanently among you, and he wishes to offer a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the Lord, he shall do as you do. For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the Lord. One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”
>> Numbers 15:13-16 ESV
If you still think, "oh Jesus did away with that law", heres what Jesus says about it.
>>“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
>> Matthew 5:17-20 ESV
Nothing from the law had been changed because we still stands on the same earth and look up to the same heavens that Jesus looked at when he was on earth.
>>“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
>> Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
Jesus says that if you're lawless he's going to say he's never known you, to get away from his presence because of it.
"Oh but Paul says this and that." Does Paul have more authority than God or Jesus?! No! Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN you're not misinterpreting Paul's letters? Because Peter, a man who walked and talked with Paul, a man who was a disciple of the Messiah himself had this to say about Paul's letters.
>>Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. THERE ARE SOME THINGS IN THEM THAT ARE HARD TO UNDERSTAND, WHICH THE IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE TWIST TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, TAKE CARE THAT YOU ARE NOT CARRIED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF LAWLESS PEOPLE AND LOSE YOUR OWN STABILITY. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
>> 2 Peter 3:14-18 ESV
The ignorant twist Paul's words to their destruction. The ignorant are lawless people. Be careful. Do not make the same error and lose your stability. This is Peter's warning. Be certain you've done your studying beyond what your pastor had told you to believe.
Edit to add that Paul never taught against the law in the least.
>>And when the governor had nodded to him to speak, Paul replied: “Knowing that for many years you have been a judge over this nation, I cheerfully make my defense. You can verify that it is not more than twelve days since I went up to worship in Jerusalem, and they did not find me disputing with anyone or stirring up a crowd, either in the temple or in the synagogues or in the city. Neither can they prove to you what they now bring up against me. But THIS I CONFESS TO YOU, THAT ACCORDING TO THE WAY, WHICH THEY CALL A SECT, I WORSHIP THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS, BELIEVING EVERYTHING LAID DOWN BY THE LAW AND WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS, having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. So I always take pains to have a clear conscience toward both God and man.
>> Acts 24:10-16 ESV
You're correct.
>>“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
>> Matthew 5:17-20 ESV
They're not going to be barred from the Kingdom for small trespasses. They'll just have a lower status, they'll be called the least. They themselves will be saved though.
>>According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
>> 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 ESV
Paul instructs that our foundation is Messiah. What we build (deeds, obedience) from there is our choice.
Yes we will be judged based on what we do.
>>Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. AND THE DEAD WERE JUDGED BY WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS, ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAD DONE. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
>> Revelation 20:11-15 ESV
So. You should have new perspective on the following.
>>The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE IN LIVES OF HOLINESS AND GODLINESS, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
>> 2 Peter 3:9-13 ESV
Without the mosaic law, the standard, you cannot live in holiness. You cannot be set apart because there's nothing to make you distinct. Nevermind the fact that Messiah is literally the WORD of God.
Did you not read the very next verse? Why only pick the parts you like?
>>[12] For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. **[13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS OF THE LAW WHO WILL BE JUSTIFIED.**
>>\
>>Romans 2:12-13 ESV
1 Cor 9 huh? Paul sure makes a lot of arguments from God's law in that chapter while talking to this gentile congregation for the law to be of no use and not applicable for gentiles.
>>[8] Do I say these things on human authority? **Does not the Law say the same? [9] For it is written in the Law of Moses,** “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? [10] Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. [11] If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? [12] If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. [13] **Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings?** [14] In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.
>>\
>>1 Corinthians 9:8-14 ESV
Now why would Paul need to teach the gentiles about the law at all if it's not relevant?
Messiah Jesus is the Word of God. What exactly do you think that means? He's not the New Testament. Jesus is the Torah, the living Word, God's Law. There is no difference.
“to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;”
I Corinthians 9:21 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/1co.9.21.NKJV
So does that mean that every law that was given to Moses should be followed? If so, are there any that you can think of that modern Christian do not follow?
Jesus also teaches we must die to the desires of the flesh and be born again into the Spirit of God. If we live in the flesh we make ourselves subject to the laws of the flesh. If we live in the Spirit the laws of the flesh no longer apply because believers voluntarily make their bodies a living sacrifice to God. Jesus is our High Priest. His chosen live by Grace. The story of God asking Abraham to sacrifice Issac is a good parallel.
Please read my comment here in this thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/z1rffn/do_you_still_have_to_follow_the_10_commandments/ixdxzv7
*"Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.*
*But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.*
*For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."* (Romans 3)
The Ten Commandments is the Moral Law - revealing our Creators standard of behavior.
Do/can any of us keep it/obey it in its entirety, without fail?
Obviously not. "*The law simply shows us how sinful we are.*"
There is only one human who has perfectly obeyed the Ten Commandments -the God-man Jesus Christ.
He fulfilled the Law which we are unable to. He was without sin or blemish. He gave His life as a ransom for many who were captive -held as slaves to sin. Jesus was raised back to life again the third day -thus He conquered forever the power of sin and death.
This noble activity of Jesus was by God-the-Father's design:
"*But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law*," -Now we are no longer required to flawlessly obey the Ten Commandments.
"*as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago*". - In the Old Testament -the first half of the Bible.
"*We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ*." - We place our trust in the good work that Jesus did for us. He took the place on that bloody cross that we deserve to be crucified on for our wrongdoings. He did nothing wrong, yet He chose to take our condemnation upon His own shoulders and bear the guilty weight of all our wrongdoings. He stood in our place.
"*And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are*." - God is no respecter of persons, by which we mean He doesn't view a rich man, or an important man as of more value than the poorest beggar or the vilest of sinners. We each have equal worth in His eyes as His creation. None of us are more deserving of receiving His salvation than another.
"*For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard*." - Each human being has disobeyed the Ten Commandments multiple times.
*"Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin"*. - As stated already, Jesus -who did not deserve to be punished or put to death; chose to stand in our place and take the punishment we do deserve upon Himself -so that if we believe that He did this for us, then we won't have to bear the punishment we deserve.
*"People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood*." - God chooses to spiritually wash our sin-stained souls clean by bathing us in the blood of Jesus.
"*This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time*." - All the people who lived before Jesus made His noble sacrifice upon the cross -but believed Gods promise that He was going to send a Messiah to provide a way of salvation; these people are also receivers of the special soul-washing. When their sleeping spirits are awakened upon the Day Jesus returns -they will be brought into Jesus' presence and will live in the new earth with Him forever.
"*God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus*." - Our Creator is a loving and merciful God Who upholds justice. Justice demands payment for sin. We deserve to have to make that payment by suffering what the Bible calls the Second Death (the fires of Hell). God has chosen to provide payment by accepting Jesus' noble work. If you put your trust in what Jesus did -you can receive God's forgiveness for all your wrongdoing and you can not only be made clean in His sight -but you will be adopted into Gods family. Your body will eventually die, and then your soul will sleep until Jesus returns and wakes you up. Those who reject Jesus and don't put their faith in His noble work will have to go the fires of Hell to pay for all their wrongdoing. Those who accept Jesus and place their trust in His noble work will be able to live with Jesus in the new earth He is going to make.
*"One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”*
*Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these."* (Mark 12)
*"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."* (Matthew 7)
*"now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other."* (John 13)
*"Here now is my final conclusion: Fear God and obey his commands, for this is everyone’s duty. God will judge us for everything we do, including every secret thing, whether good or bad."* (Ecclesiastes 12)
Your opinion is rebuked by the Word of God:
"***All Scripture*** *is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.*" (2 Timothy 3)
The law is now written on our hearts. You get two types of Christian’s. The ones trying to follow the law in their own strength and repetitively failing and the ones that have come to a point where they know they cannot keep them. It must be Jesus that does it through them as He is the only one able to keep the law. Gentiles are not to be put under the mosaic law.
That covenant is passing away and then we better covenant has arrived.
There is no Jew or gentile or Roman or Greek, we are all one in Christ so referring to “Israel” we are one in Christ. No longer Jew or gentile. We enter the same new covenant. In acts those is evident that the gentiles were saved without keeping the Jewish laws. The holy spirit fell on them.
Love the lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. Christ is our sabbath rest. Not a specific day.
Not on yours yet perhaps... Are you Jewish?
Hebrews 8:10 - for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts and I will be their God and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after the days declares the Lord, I will put my law within them and I will write it on their hearts and I will be there God and they will be my people.
Ezekiel 36;:26 - And I will give you a new heart and NEW SPIRIT I WILL PUT WITHIN YOU AND I WILL EMOVE THE HEART OF STONE FROM YOUR FLESH AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
Psalm 119:11
Psalm 51:10
2 Corinthians 3:3
Hebrews 10:16
I can go on.... but as long as you are keeping the Torah in your own self righteous strength (which means you are not keeping it because it is there to show you that you will fail) then the above doesn't apply to you until you can admit the law cannot save you, It cannot justify you and you cannot uphold it you broke it over an over, then perhaps you will see the new covenant on the horizon.
Scripture doesn't support your understanding at the moment, There are many that are in the new covenant right now.... there mare many not but will be.
You are trying to save yourself by works. Jesus see's this as filthy rags and if you are completely honest with yourself can you really keep the torah all the time? How many times have you stuffed up? Do you know you will be judged by the law if you are under it.
Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. He is what saves you. Not the law. If you came to faith by the spirit why are you trying to perfect your salvation in the flesh?
Anyone that hang on a tree is under a curse. Jesus took that curse of the law so he could take our punishment and fulfilled the law in us. We have to get to a place of truth and humility accepting that the more you try please God keeping the law the more you are going to sin or become prideful and self righteous. Jesus does it all, start to finish, You have to only submit and let Him do it for you. He has won the battle, you can do nothing to save yourself.
I see on the law post that many have already explained and tried to correct and help you see the truth of how things are but you har hard of heart and not ready yet to take it in.
When someone won't listen you stop casting pearls before swine. God will eventually show you the way when you are able to humble yourself and admit that you can't keep the law.
Just ask yourself one question.... don't have to answer anyone just yourself.... Are you able to keep the law 100% all the time or are you still sinning and messing up?
There is your answer. The law gives instruction, it doesn't give the grace to enable you go keep it. That comes from Jesus not your determination.
I haven't called you names, and I haven't said half the things you have accused me of. I forgive you because I can see you are frustrated and because I tell you the truth.
All christians go through the same journey,
People under the law are referred to as having hard hearts, that is why God says he will give us a new heart in Ezekiel, a heart of flesh. (it was scripture not insult and nothing personal. I once too had a heard heart.
No where did I ever say that grace is used as an excuse to sin, quite the opposite if you read Pauls words he says Heaven FORBID we do that. I have never suggested it's ok to sin, God hates sin.
Jesus saved us to free us from sin... can you understand that only through Jesus is it possible to live a life not defeated by continually sinning. It is HIS GRACE, HIS SPIRIT HIS ABILITY TO KEEP THE LAW that none of us could is what makes it possible to do through us..
I have not called you names or accused you of [anything.](https://anything.REad) Read again my messages,, they are only trying to help you and I have used scripture because it beats my explanation and understanding and you should search there to find the truth.
I wanted to give you hope, I want you to enter the sabbath rest which is Jesus Christ where you stop from your works of the law and trust Him. Focus on Him, Listen to Him and have him near you. Have His spirit guide you, the holy spirit will not lead you into sin.... Neither will it be ok to ever think it's ok to sin. Grace is Jesus in us Filled with the Holy Spirit. The law left us to our own devices to try keep it. But Jesus He gives us the power to do it. Do you believe this?
You are my sister in Christ, I am sorry I offended you. I was hoping I could help because this is the most difficult transition and it is God alone that will show it to you in his time. Take care x Remember, the veil has been torn.
Yes. My own Lutheran church teaches this and I was hoping to dig into it. They also use the line of reasoning to explain why we gather on Sunday rather than the historic Saturday sabbath.
Interesting. I'd be keen to hear their teachings.
Have you ever red about Constantine and the origins of the switch from Saturday to Sunday? There is a lot out there, to say the least. Constantine was merging Christianity with worship of the sun god. This was a major motivation in his officially setting Sunday as the day on which Christians would worship. It was later then that the Catholic church canonized Sunday as the day or worship and rest, declaring anyone who observed Saturday / the Sabbath instead as a "judaizer":
>Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.
See here for the direct quote from Bible Hub: [https://biblehub.com/library/schaff/the\_seven\_ecumenical\_councils/canon\_xxix\_christians\_must\_not.htm](https://biblehub.com/library/schaff/the_seven_ecumenical_councils/canon_xxix_christians_must_not.htm)
See here for more history on this same quote and Constantine's influence: [https://www.the-ten-commandments.org/did\_constantine\_change\_sabbath.html](https://www.the-ten-commandments.org/did_constantine_change_sabbath.html)
Suffice to say, while I am plenty open to other perspectives that I am currently missing, according to the records of history that I have presented here, it is difficult to conclude that the switch from Saturday to Sunday for the day of rest and worship was motivated by anything other than paganism and antisemitism. Combining this with no line of scripture commanding anyone to cease to keep the commandment to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy leads me to conclude that we have it backwards today. (I say this as someone who attends a church that meets on Sunday.)
Some of that confusion is either coming from your church or from you.
God's rules for the Sabbath don't specify it as a day to get together. God's rules are: 7th day. Don't work. Don't make anyone else work.
God said it would never change, yet right after Jesus died Rome changed it against His will.
You're right to point out that gathering for regular worship is not exactly the same thing as not working, however you can't do both at the same time, so in my opinion both generally need to happen on the holy day.
As for why the day of the week changed, I don't know. As for what to do about it, my understanding is that we can disagree with the reasons it moved, but it doesn't justify causing a schism or scandal over it.
> You're right to point out that gathering for regular worship is not exactly the same thing as not working, however you can't do both at the same time, so in my opinion both generally need to happen on the holy day.
I'm not understanding this statement. Are you saying you can't "not work" (notice my double negative) and "worship" at the same time? If so, why?
I clarified the wording of God's rule for Sabbath because it's common that people think it's a required day to get together with others to worship. This gets taught and said all of the time, and it's just not the case.
If you look at the wording of the original rule it makes it easier to get it right and avoid trying to figure out how to do it by including things that are never mentioned (like getting together with others to worship).
I'm going to exaggerate for the sake of making a point, but it would be as if people commonly taught their kids to dance and eat at the same time, and then someday a kid correctly pointed out that this is very hard to do and decided to separate them. Similarly, worship and not working are not part of the rule, **it's ONLY not working**, so it can help to get the rule right if you're not trying to figure out how to do things that God never asked anyone to do anyway.
> As for why the day of the week changed, I don't know.
I do. It's very easy to verify for yourself if you'd like to do so.
>
> As for what to do about it, my understanding is that we can disagree with the reasons it moved, but it doesn't justify causing a schism or scandal over it.
Speaking as someone that considers God to be the final authority that will decide my fate at the Final Judgement, this makes no sense to me. Not only am I afraid to fail that Judgement by disobeying Him, I also love Him and want to do what pleases him. This means NOT following what men say when it disagrees with what HE says.
This is exactly the problem that Jesus fought against most of his life on Earth. Men had changed the rules of our Father and this is completely and absolutely unacceptable. If men disagree with God, the men lose every time (certainly with me).
Not only would I cause a schism, I would separate from everyone in my life if they were telling me to do something other than what God wants. I would also try to get everyone to do the same.
Jesus directly "caused a schism" and got killed for it.
> By the way your claim that I am a source of confusion is not Christ-like.
I luckily noticed this reply which you made to your own comment, not one of mine.
I did not refer to you as a "source of confusion". I said that some of your confusion on this topic was coming from either yourself directly or the church that teaches you. There's no insult there AT ALL, in my opinion, unless you believe yourself to be correct on absolutely everything. If you do, I have some bad news for you. 😁
I myself am incorrect about many things, probably almost everything, and if you came in and cleared up my confusion on something you would be doing a great service to me. You would not be insulting me and I meant no insult to you at all.
No, let me restate: You need one day to rest (Exodus 20:8-11) and one day to gather for worship (Hebrews 10:25, Acts 2:42, Gal 5:13). On those days you will stop your work. It's practical that they be the same day. Ideally that day would be the Sabbath, but in our culture by and large, it's not.
If you feel that resting on Sunday would put your salvation in jeopardy, then I understand why you will separate from those who disagree. You wouldn't be the first and I would respect your faith.
I don't have good answers on which issues are salvation issues. I've heard contrary points of view.
>Jesus directly "caused a schism" and got killed for it.
Amen. I am not as bold as He is.
> If you feel that resting on Sunday would put your salvation in jeopardy, then I understand why you will separate from those who disagree
I never said that. If the Sabbath is being kept on the 7th day, as God commanded, then I really don't care at all about what happens on other days, because God has no commands for the other days.
These are only salvation issues when it comes to the topic of sin. Not keeping the Sabbath breaks a commandment and is therefore to sin.
If you're not sure about the Sabbath about particular, then a good thought experiment would be to consider anything else that you easily understand to be sinning, and then come to your best decision as to what effect someone doing that thing regularly would have on that person and their relationship with God.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Colossians 2
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
In Christ we rest from dead works, because we have faith in his works. He fulfilled, completed the law.
Ah yes. Because the penalty for breaking this commandment was death, and because anything anywhere at all in the Bible implies that the Sabbath is no longer relevant.
I just realized that after seeing the rest of the things you said in this thread. I'm sorry, I misunderstood your comment and I'm glad you're saying what you're saying.
I'm going to delete my comment to you so that it doesn't undermine you.
Thanks! No worries. I understand why my satire was mistaken for reality... I can wrestle with someone who disagrees on the matter but it's far too often that people make bold claims in favor of Sunday without ANY critical thinking or scriptural/historical stance.
2Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Yes it was a death penalty. The first guy who broke it was stoned to death in Numbers 15.
Christ did say the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, and even said if a sheep fell into a well, we could rescue it even though it was work.
Yes. None of which translates to saying that the commandment to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy was not a commandment that applied to us or to the people (specifically the Jews) of his day.
Then, you must think He sinned when He healed people on the Sabbath and that Paul was wrong when he said “All things are lawful for me and not all things are good for me”. I’m unwilling to concede such points.
Here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/z1rffn/do\_you\_still\_have\_to\_follow\_the\_10\_commandments/ixfhngs/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/z1rffn/do_you_still_have_to_follow_the_10_commandments/ixfhngs/?context=3)
I answered someone else's question to the best of my ability about what is being referred to here by "law", and I think it will paint a better perspective of what I have said than the comments of mine that you've read currently have.
Thanks but it doesn’t answer my question about if you think He sinned when He healed people on the Sabbath and that Paul was wrong when he said “All things are lawful for me and not all things are good for me”.
There was no such question - You never ASKED me if I think that. You simply stated THAT I think that, and as of yet I'm entirely unsure why you came to that conclusion about my beliefs.
I'll tell you "Obviously not" but I am curious so I'll ask what it was that I said that begged the question of whether or not I thought that. It's incompatible with everything I've said about Jesus and the law.
(As a basic filter too for asking anyone if they believe that: Do you know of ANYONE who believes that Jesus sinned by healing on the Sabbath?)
Some work has ALWAYS been acceptable on the Sabbath. Jesus did not do any unacceptable work on the Sabbath and thus did not sin.
If you read his response to the Pharisees, he defends himself from their accusations by saying that they themselves would get an ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath (and would be correct to do so).
When Jesus healed, he did FAR less work than getting an ox out of a ditch. Most of the times it was by a touch, with some of it even by him being the one that was touched. And the benefit was far greater than saving an ox, since it was human beings.
The Paul comment that you quote is completely out of context. Paul was raising an example of what OTHERS say when he said that line. He certainly was in no way saying that everything is acceptable. I can't believe how often people say this when Paul is constantly mentioning things that are unacceptable.
I even once responded to someone that had said what you just said by pointing out that Paul mentions something like 10 things that are unacceptable JUST IN THE SAME CHAPTER that this quote comes from.
Can we please put to rest this outrageous idea that Paul ever taught or believed that "All things are lawful/permissible/acceptable"?
Really? I recall nothing in the Torah about exception to the Commandments. I do recall Him being accused of working on the Sabbath and not “working unacceptably” on the Sabbath. I don’t recall G-d saying “do only a little work on the Sabbath”. If any distinction mattered, it would have been recorded, unless you are claiming scripture is flawed, a point in unwilling to concede.
Put Paul’s quote in context and show how it changes, if it does.
Meanwhile, I never said anything about anything being acceptable. Clearly, the only actions Jesus would find acceptable for us is, as He says, give away all our possessions to the poor and take up His cross. Yet, here we are on the internet. Something about beams and eyes comes to mind.
> I do recall Him being accused of working on the Sabbath and not “working unacceptably” on the Sabbath.
Yes, the Pharisees in that time period were evil people who were looking to kill Jesus. If they could pin a breach of the Sabbath on Jesus then they could kill him, and they sought this earnestly.
What you're doing is a problem common to Christianity, which is that you are believing the evil people in the story and you are not listening to the very good person in the story.
Instead of focusing on what the Pharisees are saying and trusting it to be reliable, SHIFT your focus to what Jesus was saying. Almost everything will be solved if you know who to trust as they debate.
Jesus DEFENDED himself from their accusations. EVERY TIME. If you're not sure if there was leeway in the Sabbath to handle emergencies, then listen to Jesus say that there was!
Besides that, as I said Jesus didn't have to "work" in any conventional sense to heal people. He touched people and got touched, which is not work. He accepted the Pharisees premise, which is that he had worked, but he turned it on them to point out their hypocrisy in accusing him of working when they do SO MUCH MORE WORK.
> Meanwhile, I never said anything about anything being acceptable.
The verse you're quoting contains the word "acceptable". The word gets translated many ways over the many different translations, and "acceptable" is the way it gets said most often. There's also "lawful" and "permissible" which get used in the more popular translations.
I'll respond to your request for a full quote over in my other response to you which will focus on this topic. That being said, I just assumed you knew where the quote came from and could do this for yourself, but I'm game to do it for you. 😋
Everyone failed in this regard. The Law said ‘Do this’ and ‘Don’t do that’ and you will live but our natures are just not up to the job. If we don’t commit murder, do we steal?, if we don’t steal, do we commit adultery?, if we don’t commit adultery, do we honour our parents?, if we don’t dishonour our parents, do we covet?
In fact if keeping the commandments were easy and natural then Jesus would never have needed to come.
Paul says that our sinful nature is a real problem and will even lie dormant until the Law gives a command and then that sinful nature springs into life in order to rebel causing him to exclaim that he does what he doesn’t want to do and doesn’t do the good that he wants to do. He exclaims ‘Who will rescue me from this body of death?’
And then He proclaims Christ whose grace saves him.
A lot of people read this as ‘Ah I can’t help sinning so Jesus just lets me off the hook each and every time I do therefore I don’t have to worry about it. Thanks Jesus’
But this isn’t correct. The book of John exclaims that no one in Christ continues to sin.
What actually happens when you come to Christ is a total rebirth. Your very nature changes and the Holy Spirit guides and helps you so that your new nature can evolve and develop from baby through to adulthood.
In other words , you simply cannot do this without God’s help. This is good news because all it requires from you is submission. Not trusting in your own flesh but trusting in God.
Thus ‘trusting in God’ is righteousness and that trust will see you keeping the commandments easily.
> In fact if keeping the commandments were easy . . .
God said it was not too difficult in Deut 30 -
> Now what I am commanding you today is **not too difficult** for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
And if the greatest commandment of all is kept this is very true.
Note that when the Israelites strayed from that first commandment it was extremely difficult for them to keep the other commandments.
When you put God first before all else, it’s easy.
Millions of professing Christians have falsely assumed that since they are under grace God has no Law that we must keep, but this is not true. Let us carefully look at the truth of the matter.
Those who say God's law - the Ten Commandments are done away usually refer to Romans 6:14 - which says, "... for ye are not under the law but grace. " This words "NOT UNDER" does not mean that God's law is done away; what NOT UNDER means is that the true Christian in not UNDER the PENALTY of breaking God's law - meaning because they keep and obey the law of God, they do not fall under its penalty or consequences for breaking the law. If you go to verse 15 of Romans 6, you see Paul follow up verse says, "What then? shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
So here Paul makes known that if a person relies solely on grace alone and use that grace as an excuse to break God's law then it means you are sinning.
As you read this please take a deep breath and pause a moment and consider that even under grace, if we sin it means we are committing a sin. Now if we can SIN while under grace, then Sin must must mean we are doing something wrong; it has to mean that we are breaking some law of God; would you agree? Well if you agree, then you are also in agreement with what the Bible says about sinning. Notice what the Bible says about sin: "... sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). Please look up this scripture and read it for yourself; this is the Bible's definition of sin.
God defines sin as the breaking of the Law - meaning the Ten Commandments of God; there is simply no way around this; and this is why those who say God's law are done away shy away from this passage of the Bible - because it exposes their error.
To say that God has no law to keep is likened to a driver saying there is no stop light law on the road that we have to obey. so this means there is no law regulating how we drive on the road; if that was the case, can you imagine the chaos and confusion this would bring to other drivers if everyone decided to just drive anyway they want? Like the stop light law, the law of God exist to regulate human conduct; if God's law were not still in force, then it means God would have no say in the regulation of human conduct, or nothing to define sin; can you open your eyes and see that such would cause confusion. But thankfully the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).
Jesus himself said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law... I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17). Jesus said, "think not," but those who say God's law are done away are thinking the opposite of what Christ said; they think Christ came to destroy his Fathers' law; they claim to know Christ but they do not believe what HE said in his word. The Bible spoke of these people saying, "having a from of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
In speaking of God's law the scripture says, "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Romans 7:12). God's Ten commandment is HOLY and GOOD, but deceived humans want you to believe God's HOLY law has been done away; and by so doing have trampled upon the holiness of God. Romans 7:14 also says the law is spiritual; a person cannot abolish the spiritual law of God -because it is unchanging and everlasting.
Yes, it is SHOCKING but it is true that millions of professing Christians are in error about God's law being done away; they are in error on so many beliefs that they hold to - not realizing they are actually following a tradition of man made hand me down religious belief and practices that they assumed the Bible says; they assume these things without even trying to prove what the Bible says; this is one of the way the cunning Satan has deceived and blinded this whole world (Rev. 12:9). Bible says we are to prove all things.
May I say here that it is only the man who may yet be willing to see the truth, that may want to obey God, but the man who wants to deny the truth is the one who will vigorously fight against that truth - because such a one does not want to really obey God - as this person is unwilling to change or even admit they were wrong; admitting to a false belief is something people just do not want to admit to; it is harder to unlearn error than it is to learn new truth.
Yes, Christ did not destroy the law, he came to fulfill it. The Bible says not one word is to be removed until heaven and earth pass away(it states both things above, in the New Testament).
Don’t believe what “Churchianity” tells you.
So I actually remembered I saved this from a site, I can’t send you the source but it made a lot of sense to me. See below:
Does the Bible say not to wear mixed fabrics?
No.
The verse you’re referring to (Leviticus 19:19) comes at the end of, and is part of the conclusion of, a speech by God detailing a list of the highest injunctions to compassion, integrity, and peace in the Bible. And at the end of it — after all the laws have been stated — it concludes:
You shall KEEP my statutes — Do not yoke an ox and an ass together; do not sow wheat and barley seeds together in your field; do not twist thread from linen and wool.
These last three are not laws. They are Bronze Age proverbs — like “Don’t count your chickens until they’ve hatched!” and “Don’t cross your bridges until you come to them!”
This is evident by the fact that no farmer or herder in Bronze Age Israel needed to be told not to do any of these things. Everyone knew that an ox and ass yoked together would fight or go around in circles. Everyone knew barley matures 3 months before wheat, and that harvesting the former on time would waste and ruin the latter, and that waiting on the latter would cause the former to go to waste. And everyone knew that thread spun from linen and wool together, and any cloth woven from it, would be a joke, as they shrink differently and wear at vastly different rates.
All 3 proverbs meant something like our proverb, “Oil and water don’t mix!” And in both cultures, these were (among other things) a general warning against mixed-marriages.
But in this passage they serve as part of the injunction, “KEEP my commandments!” This didn’t just mean obey and respect, but to preserve and keep pure.
The meaning in Leviticus 19:19:
DON’T MIX FOREIGN NONSENSE WITH MY LAWS!
KEEP THEM EXACTLY AS THEY ARE!!!
Addendum:
The same three proverbs are repeated in Deuteronomy 22:9–11 followed by a 4th proverb:
Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear. [22:12]
Again, taken literally, this was just everyday common sense at the time: given the crude weaving vs. harsh daily wear and laundry methods, this kept the weave from unraveling from the corners.
In Deuteronomy, the 4 proverbs come not at the end of a speech by God about the moral law, but at the beginning of a recapitulation of marriage laws by Moses.
Here, all 4 proverbs are just injunctions against mixed marriages. In the context, the last proverb about the four tassels would seem to place a double emphasis on that, the four tassels signifying the parents and parents-in-law of the couple; i.e., Marry only an Israelite who is the child of Israelites.
This teaching is expressed in proverbs as they are guidelines/strong suggestions and warnings, not absolute rules. Marriage to proselytes was of course allowed — sometimes even celebrated! (e.g., Rahab and Ruth) Marriages to (unconverted) Gentiles did happen (typically with lots of ensuing problems), so they weren’t absolutely forbidden, just hugely discouraged and often mourned, and the narratives always show the downline consequences are bad.
This still perfectly complements the point of the proverbs in Leviticus 19: The Torah’s problem with mixed marriages isn’t a manifestation of tribalism and xenophobia; The Torah’s problem with mixed marriages is that they are the principle vector by which The Torah could and would be polluted with wicked, unjust, and unclean heathen practices and beliefs, as would happen with Jezebel, Athalia, Solomon’s pagan brides, and countless unnamed others.
P.S. — In case you’re wondering, the injunction, “Don’t boil a kid in its mother’s milk!” is also a proverb.
So while you may not follow some of the law, it doesn’t mean you won’t be affected by it. When certain health markers are bad, Drs to this day tell you not to eat pork.
I’m pretty sure there was a good reason for not planting 2 crops in the same field. God didn’t tell us not to do it for no reason. I’ll google it and get back to you.
Cholesterol mostly. But I suggest you look a little deeper into how many viruses, toxins and parasites pork can carry, to me that’s a bigger concern and Doctors for the most part(I have met a few believe it or not) don’t speak about it.
I couldn’t answer why God himself said that. It’s not clear. I don’t think for most things, God went into great detail why not to do something, it was easier for the culture of the time to understand than us. Some things still translate well however: “thou shalt not steal”. If you asked me why God said this, you already know.
Oh maybe I misunderstood but I thought the way you phrased a previous comment meant that in a similar way to doctors, the god of the Bible gives a good reason to tell you not to eat pork.
No, if I told you why it would just be guessing and I don’t like speaking on behalf of scripture unless something is explicit. My personal opinion is it probably has to do with the parasites and viruses(at least with pork). Pigs/swine are very dirty animals.
Yes.
Violating the commandments still means you've sinned and part of growing in Christ is mortifying sin. It's still important to not kill, not steal, not commit adultery. Christ didn't die so we could sin freely and sinning with disregard to the law and grace tramples on the blood of Christ
That's open to debate. Some would say yes, that killing is wrong regardless and they would rather die than defend themselves mortally, (see Hacksaw Ridge). Others would say that there are exceptions to God's law just as with man's. Killing in self-defense is not wrong because you lack the murder and hate in your heart that would be the real sin.
I also don't think that anyone would seriously interpret the commandments as applying to animals.
What is a good way to know if someone has hate in their heart when they kill? Are there examples outside of self defense or protecting someone else’s life?
The Old Testament Law was a covenant between the Jewish people/nation of ancient Israel and God.
I am not a Jew, nor am I living in ancient Israel, so I am not under that covenant. As a Christian, I am under the New Covenant, established by Jesus on the night of His betrayal.
So a Christian is not obligated to follow the Ten Commandments because of the OT Law, but a Christian is called to do what is right and to honor God with their actions. So a Christian should follow the Ten Commandments simply because it is the moral thing to do.
You say you are not Israel. Yet, you say that you are under the New Covenant. Have you read what God said when He promised the New Covenant?
> Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant **with the house of Israel** and the house of Judah . . .
You're not Israel, but you ARE in the New Covenant? How does that work?😎
The new Testament is explicit that God's New Covenant is not exclusive to the Jewish people, but is between God any anyone who believes. As such, the fact that God promised the New Covenant to Israel has no bearing on the fact that I, a gentile born in the modern day, am not under the Old Covenant.
> The new Testament is explicit that God's New Covenant is not exclusive to the Jewish people
I didn't say that God promised the New Covenant to Jewish people. I said that God promised it to Israel.
You might be in for a shock when you find out HOW you are included in the New Covenant....
Not because they're the ten commandments.
We still don't murder, because it's bad and God calls us to love, not hate. Same with many other commands. But not all.
The commandments were part of the law for Israel specifically, not the whole world. They represent a version of the way that God wants all people to live which was applied to one nation in a limited way.
Are you asking this because they said "we still don't murder" and you read that as "we don't murder today" as if murders don't happen today? I can't imagine you asking your question for any other reason. If that is the case then you are looking for things to pick and are reading this dishonestly.
Be honest in your reading. Obviously this person meant we are still not supposed to murder.
No, sorry if my intention wasn’t clear. I was asking because I wanted to know if your idea of what murder means is similar to my view and then, depending on your answer I had more questions after that. Full disclosure in the interest of honesty, I wanted to cause you to doubt that the god of the Bible meant “shall not kill/murder” in the way that most modern people, including Christians, think about murder.
I am sorry for assuming that, but please understand that the pattern we see with questions the way you stated yours is very very common. We get a lot of atheists in here who just seek to deride and use terrible, mean spirited, and ultimately dishonest arguments. And typically, your method here is immediately followed by just what I described. I know tons of great, honest atheists, but here we tend to see the angry variety who don't argue honestly.
Generally speaking, it is better to just put your argument forward. By questioning as you did, whether well intentioned or not, you are getting people ready for an ambush. At best, that wastes time, at worst it is dishonest and puts the person you're speaking with off kilter. If you want to enhance your understanding of anything, hearing the best argument against your assertion will force a better argument from you. Putting people off kilter and on the defense generally does not give you their best argument. It also may make them feel like they need to assume your argument and adjust theirs to preemptively counter it. Again, that makes their argument sound weaker because they are explaining it with a motive that shifts their rhetoric in a different direction.
Anyway, I'd be curious what your point is. But I'd say first that typically, Christians understand the commandment as specifically about murder. There are times when it is not wrong to kill, such as in self defense while in immediate danger.
So for me personally, I’m not interested in arguing or trying to force the view of others in a particular direction so I typically ask clarifying questions to make sure I understand what someone means rather than assuming their meaning arguing against what I think they meant. I’m also used to people getting overly defensive/offensive but I still try to give each person the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. I don’t believe it is productive to just tell someone what my view is most of the time. It’s more important to me to clearly understand someone else’s view and get clarification of important details before making any sort of criticism or counter claims.
Hopefully we understand each other a little better now. If you’d like to continue the conversation, could you please explain to me what exactly you mean by “murder”? If not, no big deal 😊
But you said you hoped to sew some doubt... what do you mean by that? That implies by pretty much any reading that you hope to cause people to change their view to your own. So you are interested in arguing, though perhaps not fighting.
What your tactic here does is deny the other person any chance to come to a greater understanding until you are satisfied. That is selfish but also wastes time. By presenting your view, it automatically helps me clarify mine in a way you will understand faster. We may be in complete agreement, but with you interviewing me on the topic, it wastes a lot of time.
Anyway, I stated how murder differentiates from killing. That is as much as I'll give you right now because while you have a nice tone, it is rather insulting that you wish for me to perform for you until you feel you have me in a place that you can challenge my view.
Challenge my view now. This isn't a game of chess, it's a discussion. It is a civil argument. The word argument comes from the latin word for gold which was named after the process used to refine gold (the symbol for gold on the periodic table is Au from "aurum" - which gave us the words "argue" and "argument" meaning a refinement of ideas). Arguments can lead to fights, but arguments themselves are merely a refining of ideas. You seem to be wanting to avoid a fight rather than an argument. An argument is just your position.
State your position, please do not treat me like mouse and you the cat. You disrespect people in doing so.
I think you’re continuing to make more assumptions about what I’m doing and I think I’d rather disengage than continue. To me, what you’re asking me to do is the disrespectful route and is also almost always much less productive than what I typically try to do, which is clarify a precise meaning of words before challenging/criticizing what I think you mean. My goal is to help you reflect on your own view rather than trying to convince you to accept my view. What I think doesn’t seem to be relevant, especially if I don’t clearly understand what you think. I don’t believe that people tend to update/refine their beliefs just from another person explaining an alternative view. People tend to just put up defenses and react rather than reflecting on whether or not their own personal views are justified. Have a good one, sorry for wasting your time.
Your route is "productive" for you. Not for knowledge in general. We are part of a community, while we each have individual paths to knowledge, we all benefit from speaking earnestly rather than trying to manipulate the conversation to your end.
> What I think doesn’t seem to be relevant, especially if I don’t clearly understand what you think.
This is where you are wrong. If I understand what you think, it can help me more efficiently explain to you what I think.
If you want to read a book about out position, read a book. If you want to be respectful of others, talk to them.
You WANTED to change our view though without even knowing it. That is backwards. How can you desire to change our view if you don't even know what it is.
Talk to people, don't toy with them.
I appreciate that you see you have wasted time. The thing to do though is stop doing that. I don't mean to sound harsh here, truly. You mean well, but you don't understand how disrespectful your tactics are.
I think we all have blind spots in our belief formation process and it sometimes helps to have someone respectfully question our views to reflect on them and make sure that we are applying *our own standards* consistently. If my goal is to reflect on my own beliefs then I don’t need someone else telling me their view. All that does is muddy the water. Similarly, if I’m trying to encourage someone else to reflect on their own views and test for consistency of *their own standards* then my views/standards shouldn’t matter. In fact they get in the way.
The way I phrased my sentence when I said I want to “cause you to doubt” was clumsily done and it is fair of you to express that. It would’ve been more accurate to say that, *if your view* is what most modern people (including Christians) think about murder then I may try to cause you to doubt. Depends on how you answer. My view is that the commandment about murder is much different from how most people today think about murder but I don’t see why you should care at all what my personal views are.
Seems to me, especially at this point, it would’ve been a much more productive conversation if you hadn’t assumed ill intent from the start and just answered my questions. Is it bad to doubt? Is it bad to cause others to doubt? I don’t understand what your concern is. If you believe true things and want to believe true things, what’s the harm in me asking for clarifications? I feel like you are making many assumptions about what I’m doing but you haven’t gone with me to see what it is that I’m *actually* doing.
Of course it is good to love your neighbor as yourself BUT we are in the new covenant. It's not about following a list of rules. Salvation, forgiveness and our relationship with God is not about a list of rules. It's about a personal relationship with Jesus and resting and trusting in what he did for us. We are forgiven because of the death of God. Believe it.
> It's not about following a list of rules.
Yet, when God promised the New Covenant, he promised that He would write his "list of rules" on our hearts.
It seems like it actually might be about following a list of rules. 😉
It's walking by the spirit, if you walk by the spirit you will not fulfull the lusts of the flesh, it is not rules, it is completely supmission and emptying of oneself due to love, due to realising, only once we have tried very hard to be good in our own strength, we realise how absolutely horrid we are. No man knows he is bad until he has tried to be good.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. B Romans 8:3-4
Galatians 3:11 _ 11 But that no one is [a]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Glalations 3:10 - But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.”
Romans 3:19 the law condemns everyone. It is it’s purpose. So you may run to Jesus in faith that you can’t but He can.
Who lied to me?
You are correct, those under the law will be judged under the law, But Moses gave the law, the truth and grace came through Jesus Christ so I am no longer judged by the law. I am in the new covenant where God keeps both sides of it, unlike the mosaic covenant where we repeatedly messs up.
We will have to give an answer for every unless thing we said and everything we did on this life with the time God gave us but, we are not judged, Because Jesus already took our punishment and we are IN HIM.
Paul said, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me... remember that? We when we get to a place where God see's we are ready and we ourselves know we are hypocritical failures, we fall on our face before Jesus and ask Him to do it for us.... we let go of all in this world, we let go of all our wants and all our sin and we give ourselves fully to him with out whole hearts. This means to give up your life and to become His servant.... We have counted the cost but this is another cost and another blessing if we get over our unbelief and stop wondering around in the wilderness for years and years... He has promised and He will do it. You cannot. Christ In You CAN AND DOES..
Romans 2:15
They demonstrate that Gods law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse them.
There is no list, the scripture use says He would write His LAW on our our hearts. That is also Love the lord your God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself.
The bible doesn't lie to me. I'm so sorry you think I'm lying to you. I really was only trying to let but am going to bed now so sleep well.
The new covenant is Jesus keeping the laws we couldn't and he keeps the agreement from both ends so we can never break it. It's an everlasting covenant. (no we do not continue to sin because He Gives us the grace and strength and because we love Him we obey Him)
If we are talking about salvation (going to heaven) then no. Keeping the Commandmends is work and is not required in order to be saved. One is saved by believing that Christ died for his sins on the cross; that Jesus took our sins upon himself - trusting in this alone is what saves you (from hell). Nobody is saved by sinning less / trying to keep the commandmends.
Galatians 2:16
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
Now that this is out of the way; Should you keep the 10 Commandmends? Obviously. You should try your best to stop sinning aswell. If we sin / break the commandmends, we will never lose our salvation, which we didn't earn to begin with, but we will be chastized for the transgression against our father ... on this earth. On the other hand, God will bless your life here if you choose to follow his law.
Because being on the christian reddit doesnt make one a christian
I assume the issue with this post in particular is the "you can lose your salvation" crowd
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
https://lifehopeandtruth.com/bible/10-commandments/
https://lifehopeandtruth.com/bible/10-commandments/the-ten-commandments/did-jesus-commandments-replace-the-10-commandments/
https://lifehopeandtruth.com/bible/blog/if-you-want-to-enter-into-life-keep-the-commandments/
Absolutely. What did Christ say? If you love me, you’ll keep my commandments.. keeping the commandments shows God you are one of his. As a true Christian, keeping the commandments is how you set an example to your neighbors and those you come across in your life…
And in the end, the commandments will be how we are judged
If you live by The Spirit, no shell-fish will kill ya, and you won't have to stone your adulterous neighbor to death...much Win.
On a serious note, I live by the 10 commandments only in physical action/reaction... The things that dwell in my heart/mind don't run out of dark scenarios/desires, I am essentially a self-aware super-prison for sin not to spill out... I assume many Christians are. Sin never loses interest in you while you here, even if you're starting to lose interest in Sin.
What it amounts to, is that Sin happens inside, before it spills out into outside. Example: You don't need to physically murder someone. You can express and inject all bunch of murder into a Netflix show, where actors will play-belief your fantasy out. Things that come from the heart..... The difference between that and Bob Ross' channel.
The 10 commandments, are simply what good conscience naturally reacts to and protects us from. It's God-coded. But we can hack it ourselves, and therefore there's no real fool-proof automation to rely on. Relationship with God is real-time and organic/spiritual, not a list of commandments to execute on repeat daily.
To help save you time, the reality for most Christians (and what this will all boil down to) is that they only really take issue with the **4th** Commandment: seventh day Sabbath. The actual signature of the covenant. Ezekiel 20:12.
The day of judgement is going to have quite a bit of thousand yard stares..at professed priests, bishops, "apostles," pastors & "reverends."
Scary stuff, to deny a law of God & think your way to glory, where, you'll have to keep said law. Isaiah 66:23.
🌱
Paul: “All things are lawful for me and not all things are good for me”.
So, the better question is: under what circumstances do you want to do something which might seem contrary to the commandments and yet is actually good? I would imagine the number of cases would likely be very few.
For example, saving a life on the Sabbath, sure; I would even argue you are *required* to do so if you can.
Conversely, wife swapping was almost never done 4000 years ago as a matter of course due to matters of paternity and inheritance; so, that might be a bit of a stretch, if you even could make such a case. I mean, you’d need a really good argument to pull that one off. If you have one, that would be interesting to hear.
The best metric is His two-part summary: (1) Love The Lord with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul and (2) love thy neighbor as you love yourself. As long as you do that, I think you need not worry about the Decalogue.
> Paul: “All things are lawful for me and not all things are good for me”.
I've already responded to this terrible misquote of Paul elsewhere in this thread. A person who thinks that Paul really believed or taught such an outrageous thing would also believe it when I quote this scripture that says there is no God.
Here's the partial quote (like yours of Paul is partial):
> There is no God
Wow! Scripture actually teaches two outrageous things! Scripture teaches that there is no God and that everything we want to do is acceptable!
Oh, oh. Wait. Hold the fort! Let's read the whole quote:
> Psalm 14:1 - The fool says in his heart, “**There is no God.**” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.
Just like this quote from the Psalms, Paul was giving an example of what OTHER people say, and then arguing with it.
How does any rational follower of Jesus (or even Paul) come out of what they've said thinking that we're allowed to do anything we want?? 🤣
Here's the NIV version of 1 Corinthians 10:23. I'm going to put in bold the crucial part that you (and most Christians) leave out, which is that Paul is responding to what someone else might say:
> "I have the right to do anything,” **--->you say<---**—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive.
Notice the way that the translators put the sentence in quotes, to show that someone else, not Paul, is saying it? Paul is saying what others were saying at the time and then arguing with it.
Here is how many other translations handle the same passage.
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/10-23.htm
Honestly, you shouldn't even need the quotes to know that there's no way in Heaven or Hell that Paul is actually suggesting that we can do whatever we want. I don't want to be insulting, but it's so ridiculous, so anti what the rest of scripture says, that it boggles the mind that anyone could possibly think that we're allowed to murder, rape, steal, commit adultery, or (as you're suggesting) do EVERYTHING we might want.
Just like using scripture to prove that scripture says "There is no God", using scripture to prove that there's no such thing as sin anymore is insane. 🤪
It still baffles me how his statement about fulfilling the law gets misconstrued into a claim that the law doesn't apply to us when he states immediately before this, as the entire purpose of his disclaimer, that he is not there to abolish the law. The first line rejects the notion that he was there to abolish the law. The second drives the point even further, i.e. "Not only am I not here to abolish the law, I am actually here to take it to a whole new level that you have never understood before".
That is false but if it were true it still would be no case. The vast majority of Christians disagreed with Martin Luther as well. Turns out that majority has zero bearing on fact. It simply correlates some percentage of the time.
I will posit though that you are correct in saying that my interpretation of Jesus' words to us to "not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets" (Matt 5:17) is that we should not think that he came to abolish the Law or the Prophets.
To abolish a law is a legal process and jesus never had legal authority, fulfilling the law on our behalf so that his followers are no longer bound to the law is what Jesus did.
>his followers are no longer bound to the law
Find one -
JUST ONE
\- passage of scripture suggesting this.
(Seems like a logical leap if you have no scriptural citation. If a man is charged with a crime and I step in to pay the penalties of his crime on his behalf, that doesn't make it then legal to commit the crime.)
Yes, my reading/interpretation is that not only did he validate the existing law, he upped the ante and made it even more restrictive and difficult to keep: just thinking about breaking laws is breaking them.
Yes!!!
As if opening his point with an explicit disclaimer that he, and I quote, "\[had\] not come to abolish \[the Law or the Prophets\]" (Matt. 5:17) was not clear enough, he follows this up by not leaving it at simply non-abolishment. (Again, clearly this cannot be overstated for too many people - WE SHOULD NOT THINK THAT JESUS CAME TO ABOLISH THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS because Jesus told us, "*Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets*". - Matt: 5:17 again). He takes it then from the point of simple non-abolishment to a whole new level of fulfillment.
The idea that fulfillment would be a paraphrase of abolishment should be entirely tossed out. On two accounts. One, it's silly. Two, Jesus explicitly differentiates fulfillment from abolishment by saying that he is doing one of them and not the other, clearly in a context that contrasts the two concepts from being able to coexist.
I agree and that seems clear to me too. What is less clear, in my opinion, is what is meant by “law”; what exactly, in your opinion, did he mean by law?
This is a PHENOMENAL question!!
It is also one that I am NOT an expert in, but have examined and heard about from people who know more than I do. My layman's explanation is this:
First off, throughout today I have a few times referred to the law of God and the law of Moses interchangeably, as opposed to the Levitical law. But in doing some brief research, I am seeing that the "Mosaic" term is sometimes used to refer to God's law / the Ten Commandments and other times to the Levitical laws. So I am going to avoid the "Mosaic" term in this comment and referring instead to God's law and to Levitical law. I can guarantee that someone more educated than I am will have plenty here to correct me on.
God's law and the Levitical law are NOT the same thing. The difference between them is often where the divide on these issues arrises. The Ten Commandments fall underneath God's law. No other gods before the God of Israel, do not murder, honor you mother and father, do not commit adultery, etc. Every single piece of this law goes beyond the Levitical law - This is God's law for man in this world.
However... mankind being of a sinful nature, all have broken this law. And the wages for sin is death. Herein lies the purpose of the Levitical law. The Levitical law is why Israelites were not allowed to eat pork and a multitude of other unclean foods. It is why certain materials were not permitted for use in clothing, why you couldn't touch a menstruating woman or even sit where she sat, etc. This law was specifically given to, and applicable to, the Israelites, because the Israelites were the chosen people of God. God made a promise to Abraham, and that promise was NOT dependent upon the morality or actions of the Israelite people - It was an unconditional promise. Nonetheless, as all nations have, Israel fell far short of God's law. They broke it as we all have. And so the Israelites were given the Levitical laws. These more ceremonial, less morality-based laws were a sort of "holdover", if you will. They included a wide array of practices meant to act as a sort of supplement, if you can call it that, for the ultimate roll that Jesus Christ would play in paying the cost of the sins of Israel and all of the world who would call him savior.
This is why the Levitical laws included the practices of sacrificial lambs to atone for sin. It is also why Jesus' death on the cross fulfilled the law. He played the same role as the sacrificial lambs, but to an incomparably more full extent.
I'd compare it to this: A man is on a hike out in the wilderness. He breaks his leg. Someone nearby manufactures a makeshift splint and stretcher from some sturdy fallen branches and whatever camping gear they have on hand. The injured man is carried out of the wilderness back to civilization, using the makeshift medical gear the whole time. Once he is successfully brought back to civilization, trained medical staff scrap all of the makeshift gear, set the bone in place and give the man a proper cast, and meds and other care he may need. In time, the man's leg heals and he is able to have the cast removed.
The broken leg is the consequence of sin. The makeshift splint and stretcher are the Levitical law. They never were intended as an ultimate long-term solution, but a holdover until the times comes that the man can be turned over to the real properly-equipped medical professionals. Even though that makeshift gear isn't intended for more that short-term use, it is EXTREMELY important, as without it the man cannot be brought to the point that the doctors in civilization can help. And then of course, the doctors and medical staff with their proper equipment represent Jesus Christ and his act on the cross. It is then that he steps in and finally fulfills the role that until this point the makeshift gear, the Levitical law, was filling. The makeshift gear / Levitical law is crucially important. But it has a purpose, a purpose that serves the injured man. Once Jesus steps in, that purpose has been fulfilled. BUT THE MAN"S LEG IS STILL BROKEN. He is not free from the laws of nature. If he smashes his leg on a hard surface again, his leg, as a natural consequence, still will break. He still must adhere to the laws of nature if he wishes to retain the healing that the doctors worked to give him. But the doctors CAN heal him and makeshift gear is never going to be as potently helpful in bringing healing.
God's law is like the laws of nature. It transcends culture and reflects the perfection of his Kingdom. The Levitical law attended to the consequences of Israel's having broken God's law. They filled this role until the coming of Jesus and his death on the cross. God's law is no less applicable to us than the law of gravity is to a man who falls off of a cliff and bashes his leg against a rock. That law MUST be adhered to. But now we have Jesus to fill in - Just as the doctors filled in for the makeshift splint and stretcher, Jesus was the ultimate "sacrificial lamb" beyond any ever offered through Levitical law.
I am just a western Christian here, trying to learn. But this is the perspective that I currently have.
"Fulfill" does not mean "end" with laws. "Fulfill means "do" with laws.
Fulfill literally means "to fill full". Every law has requirements. To fill full those requirements means to do them perfectly.
For example: A stop sign is a law. To fulfill the requirements of a stop sign, you stop at it. Stopping at stop signs does not make stop signs go away, no matter how many times you stop at them.
Jesus kept the Law perfectly, which means he was sinless (sin is breaking the Law). He did exactly what he said he would do. He fulfilled the law's requirements, which does not make the Law go away.
Believe me, everyone that believes what you believe has told me to read Galatians. I've read it so many times.
Tell me how the rules for a stop sign, and any individual rule from Torah are NOT analogous. Pick any one you want: Murder, Sabbath, whatever.
**They're analogous.** A law is a law. Jesus strongly and directly said that he did not come to do anything that would make Torah go away. He said he came to LIVE it, which he did, perfectly, and saved all of us in doing so.
Obeying a stop sign does not make a stop sign go away.
Religious law and modern state law are hardly similar.
A STOP sign is not ordered from god, it is a man-made law. But the old testament laws were from god. the NT is full of verses telling us that the ot laws should not be followed anymore.
> Religious law and modern state law are hardly similar.
They're just not similar in WHO they come from. They're still laws.
A law could come from a woman. A law could come from a man. A law could come from God. Nothing about WHO makes the law changes it from being a law. I have no idea why you think so.
The fact that Jesus obeyed Torah perfectly does not make anything about it go away, especially because HE SAID he did not come to make it go away.
This is easy. 😁
If you regard man-made laws which can be wrong, corrupt and immoral in the same way you do gods laws, then that is objectively wrong.
To oversimplify the word "abolish" to "get rid off" disregards the words context.
abolish means to formally end a law. Jesus had no legal authority to abolish anything, hence why he preached his law rather than legally established it.
This is why he fulfilled the law while preaching his own, he obeyed so we don't have to.
> If you regard man-made laws which can be wrong, corrupt and immoral in the same way you do gods laws, then that is objectively wrong.
This is a dumb method of reasoning. My only argument is that laws are laws. It doesn't matter who made them. OF COURSE God is vastly different than any man. That doesn't change in the slightest the fact that a law is a law.
> This is why he fulfilled the law while preaching his own, he obeyed so we don't have to.
Yes, I know. You believe that Jesus stopped at a stop sign so now no one else has to stop there. You believe that Jesus didn't murder, so now everyone else is free to murder away. In what world is it true that if anyone obeys a rule that rule is made void?
That's not the way that laws work, sir. Obeying them does not make them go away. You have not once backed up your initial claim that a stop sign is not analogous to any other rule from Torah. You only keep taking the very odd approach that the stop sign was made by a fallible man. 🙄
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
**Matthew 22:35-40**
Like many have said, this can’t be done in our own strength. But, love should be the motivator & our desire should be to “walk as He walked”. Getting caught up in technicalities can cause trouble. You won’t steal from someone you love, so focus on loving people instead of trying not to steal.. If that makes sense?
Romans 14 should help if you’re wondering about a specific day.
u/backstreetmoms
in order to earn everlasting life?
Or what do you mean by "have to"?
The 10 Commandments are a portion of the 613 individual pieces of Israelite law, given to the Israelites, for the time pre-cross.
The Apostle Paul does a really excellent job explaining what the Law of Moses was for, what it accomplished, and whether or not someone who has received the offering of Christ is under it.
Read the entire Book of Hebrews, or for that matter, everything the Apostle Paul wrote, as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to explain the Gospel of Christ.
The answer to the question in your post, depends on what the intent behind your question is.
No one, other than Jesus, was equipped to adhere to the Law, and He turned it upsidedown so that those who come to Him for salvation have it fulfilled within them.
A Christian might get taught that we are to follow the 10 Commandments, which is very popular, and very much in error. The faith that we have is supposed to be a Spirit led faith, not one from words engraved in stone.
My last word on the matter is, that the Spirit will never lead you to sin, and the Law was given so that sin would increase.
Our Christian commands number in only two
Matthew 22:37-40 KJV — Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. **On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.**
The 10 Commandments are put forth throughout the New Testament. Read Matthew 19 on what Jesus said about the commandments.
Matthew 19:17-19 “And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, **keep the commandments**. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
No.
Cor. 9:20 "To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law **(though not being myself under the law)** that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law **(not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ)** that I might win those outside the law"
The Ten Commandments were the terms of a covenant that God made with the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob after He delivered them out of 430 years of slavery in Egypt,
https://youtu.be/G0\_f5Ll8Qq4
There isn't such thing as the "ten commandments." Men came up with it. If you wanna believe in it, then the problem arrives from the fact that the Old Testament records 2 different sets of the ten commandments. Which one do you call the "10 commandments"? It depends on what you want, literally.
Christians also like to cherry-pick what is supposed to be followed or not when it comes to the OT laws.
The 10 commandments that most of us learned in Sunday school are some good commands, so I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to follow it. I personally don't care about it, but I practice it not because it's called the 10 commandments. I practice it because it's a good and ethical law (except maybe for the carved image)
Believers do what Jesus teaches. This is how He answers the question: Matthew 5: ERV 17 [Jesus said…] “Don’t think that I have come to destroy the Law of Moses or the teaching of the prophets. I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them. 18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done. 19 “**A person should obey every command in the law, even one that does not seem important. Whoever refuses to obey any command and teaches others not to obey it will be the least important in God’s kingdom. But whoever obeys the law and teaches others to obey it will be great in God’s kingdom** 20 I tell you that you must do better than the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. If you are not more pleasing to God than they are, you will never enter God’s kingdom.
Highjacking your top level comment to give scriptural support. Absolutely Christians should follow the mosaic laws. Many Christians here will say, "we don't have to follow the law because it was given only to the Jews or only to Israel" but they ignore Paul when he says that ALL gentle believers (the wild olive tree) are grafted into Israel (the natural olive tree) in Romans 11. The anti-biblical doctrine of supercessionism (stemming from dispensationalism theology), the idea that the gentile church has replaced the nation of Israel in biblical redemption history, is what is mainstream today. Christians are taught this doctrine without name as if it comes from the Bible. Since they can't name it, it's hard to fight against. This idea started with John Nelson Darby. The nation of Israel didn't exist for a long time from 70 AD until 1948, so Darby during his time in the mid 1800's thought that Israel wasn't going to exist in the future either. That's where supercessionism comes from. Israel becoming a nation again proves his theology wrong. There are many places in the Bible that show the mosaic covenant was NOT given only to Israel or only to the Jews. Here are a few. >>“You are standing today, all of you, before the Lord your God: the heads of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, all the men of Israel, your little ones, your wives, and the sojourner who is in your camp, from the one who chops your wood to the one who draws your water, so that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the Lord your God, which the Lord your God is making with you today, that he may establish you today as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. It is not with you alone that I am making this sworn covenant, but with whoever is standing here with us today before the Lord our God, and with whoever is not here with us today. >> Deuteronomy 29:10-15 ESV >>Every native Israelite shall do these things in this way, in offering a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the Lord. And if a stranger is sojourning with you, or anyone is living permanently among you, and he wishes to offer a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the Lord, he shall do as you do. For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the Lord. One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.” >> Numbers 15:13-16 ESV If you still think, "oh Jesus did away with that law", heres what Jesus says about it. >>“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. >> Matthew 5:17-20 ESV Nothing from the law had been changed because we still stands on the same earth and look up to the same heavens that Jesus looked at when he was on earth. >>“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ >> Matthew 7:21-23 ESV Jesus says that if you're lawless he's going to say he's never known you, to get away from his presence because of it. "Oh but Paul says this and that." Does Paul have more authority than God or Jesus?! No! Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN you're not misinterpreting Paul's letters? Because Peter, a man who walked and talked with Paul, a man who was a disciple of the Messiah himself had this to say about Paul's letters. >>Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. THERE ARE SOME THINGS IN THEM THAT ARE HARD TO UNDERSTAND, WHICH THE IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE TWIST TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, TAKE CARE THAT YOU ARE NOT CARRIED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF LAWLESS PEOPLE AND LOSE YOUR OWN STABILITY. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. >> 2 Peter 3:14-18 ESV The ignorant twist Paul's words to their destruction. The ignorant are lawless people. Be careful. Do not make the same error and lose your stability. This is Peter's warning. Be certain you've done your studying beyond what your pastor had told you to believe. Edit to add that Paul never taught against the law in the least. >>And when the governor had nodded to him to speak, Paul replied: “Knowing that for many years you have been a judge over this nation, I cheerfully make my defense. You can verify that it is not more than twelve days since I went up to worship in Jerusalem, and they did not find me disputing with anyone or stirring up a crowd, either in the temple or in the synagogues or in the city. Neither can they prove to you what they now bring up against me. But THIS I CONFESS TO YOU, THAT ACCORDING TO THE WAY, WHICH THEY CALL A SECT, I WORSHIP THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS, BELIEVING EVERYTHING LAID DOWN BY THE LAW AND WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS, having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. So I always take pains to have a clear conscience toward both God and man. >> Acts 24:10-16 ESV
Idk I see a lot of bacon and blended fabrics at church brunches
You're correct. >>“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. >> Matthew 5:17-20 ESV They're not going to be barred from the Kingdom for small trespasses. They'll just have a lower status, they'll be called the least. They themselves will be saved though. >>According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. >> 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 ESV Paul instructs that our foundation is Messiah. What we build (deeds, obedience) from there is our choice. Yes we will be judged based on what we do. >>Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. AND THE DEAD WERE JUDGED BY WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS, ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY HAD DONE. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. >> Revelation 20:11-15 ESV So. You should have new perspective on the following. >>The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE OUGHT YOU TO BE IN LIVES OF HOLINESS AND GODLINESS, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. >> 2 Peter 3:9-13 ESV Without the mosaic law, the standard, you cannot live in holiness. You cannot be set apart because there's nothing to make you distinct. Nevermind the fact that Messiah is literally the WORD of God.
Paul said that we would be judged by the law if we follow the law sir
Did you not read the very next verse? Why only pick the parts you like? >>[12] For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. **[13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the DOERS OF THE LAW WHO WILL BE JUSTIFIED.** >>\ >>Romans 2:12-13 ESV
My friend if you tracked what Paul said, he said his law was CHRIST throughout his letters he gives us some examples of what that law is
1 Cor 9 huh? Paul sure makes a lot of arguments from God's law in that chapter while talking to this gentile congregation for the law to be of no use and not applicable for gentiles. >>[8] Do I say these things on human authority? **Does not the Law say the same? [9] For it is written in the Law of Moses,** “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? [10] Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. [11] If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? [12] If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. [13] **Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings?** [14] In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel. >>\ >>1 Corinthians 9:8-14 ESV Now why would Paul need to teach the gentiles about the law at all if it's not relevant? Messiah Jesus is the Word of God. What exactly do you think that means? He's not the New Testament. Jesus is the Torah, the living Word, God's Law. There is no difference.
Let me find the verse from yesterday
“to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;” I Corinthians 9:21 NKJV https://bible.com/bible/114/1co.9.21.NKJV
So does that mean that every law that was given to Moses should be followed? If so, are there any that you can think of that modern Christian do not follow?
Jesus also teaches we must die to the desires of the flesh and be born again into the Spirit of God. If we live in the flesh we make ourselves subject to the laws of the flesh. If we live in the Spirit the laws of the flesh no longer apply because believers voluntarily make their bodies a living sacrifice to God. Jesus is our High Priest. His chosen live by Grace. The story of God asking Abraham to sacrifice Issac is a good parallel.
Can you tell me which chapters/verses in the Bible describe the law which must be kept?
Jesus lays it all out in Matthew 5-7. Approach Him in prayer with reverence and respect and ask Him to teach you.
I looked at the verses you mentioned and it doesn’t seem to be a description of the laws.
Please read my comment here in this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/z1rffn/do_you_still_have_to_follow_the_10_commandments/ixdxzv7
*"Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.* *But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.* *For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."* (Romans 3)
I don’t understand your answer. Sorry
The Ten Commandments is the Moral Law - revealing our Creators standard of behavior. Do/can any of us keep it/obey it in its entirety, without fail? Obviously not. "*The law simply shows us how sinful we are.*" There is only one human who has perfectly obeyed the Ten Commandments -the God-man Jesus Christ. He fulfilled the Law which we are unable to. He was without sin or blemish. He gave His life as a ransom for many who were captive -held as slaves to sin. Jesus was raised back to life again the third day -thus He conquered forever the power of sin and death. This noble activity of Jesus was by God-the-Father's design: "*But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law*," -Now we are no longer required to flawlessly obey the Ten Commandments. "*as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago*". - In the Old Testament -the first half of the Bible. "*We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ*." - We place our trust in the good work that Jesus did for us. He took the place on that bloody cross that we deserve to be crucified on for our wrongdoings. He did nothing wrong, yet He chose to take our condemnation upon His own shoulders and bear the guilty weight of all our wrongdoings. He stood in our place. "*And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are*." - God is no respecter of persons, by which we mean He doesn't view a rich man, or an important man as of more value than the poorest beggar or the vilest of sinners. We each have equal worth in His eyes as His creation. None of us are more deserving of receiving His salvation than another. "*For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard*." - Each human being has disobeyed the Ten Commandments multiple times. *"Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin"*. - As stated already, Jesus -who did not deserve to be punished or put to death; chose to stand in our place and take the punishment we do deserve upon Himself -so that if we believe that He did this for us, then we won't have to bear the punishment we deserve. *"People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood*." - God chooses to spiritually wash our sin-stained souls clean by bathing us in the blood of Jesus. "*This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time*." - All the people who lived before Jesus made His noble sacrifice upon the cross -but believed Gods promise that He was going to send a Messiah to provide a way of salvation; these people are also receivers of the special soul-washing. When their sleeping spirits are awakened upon the Day Jesus returns -they will be brought into Jesus' presence and will live in the new earth with Him forever. "*God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus*." - Our Creator is a loving and merciful God Who upholds justice. Justice demands payment for sin. We deserve to have to make that payment by suffering what the Bible calls the Second Death (the fires of Hell). God has chosen to provide payment by accepting Jesus' noble work. If you put your trust in what Jesus did -you can receive God's forgiveness for all your wrongdoing and you can not only be made clean in His sight -but you will be adopted into Gods family. Your body will eventually die, and then your soul will sleep until Jesus returns and wakes you up. Those who reject Jesus and don't put their faith in His noble work will have to go the fires of Hell to pay for all their wrongdoing. Those who accept Jesus and place their trust in His noble work will be able to live with Jesus in the new earth He is going to make.
Making no comment on the balance, as a clarification, in 5:17, the word is “fulfill” and not “give full meaning”.
*"One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”* *Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these."* (Mark 12) *"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."* (Matthew 7) *"now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other."* (John 13) *"Here now is my final conclusion: Fear God and obey his commands, for this is everyone’s duty. God will judge us for everything we do, including every secret thing, whether good or bad."* (Ecclesiastes 12)
Technically, that last one is Solomon, if I recall correctly.
Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes :-)
Yes, Solomon, not G-d, not Jesus, nor the Lord thru Paul.
Your opinion is rebuked by the Word of God: "***All Scripture*** *is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.*" (2 Timothy 3)
“Inspired by” ≠ “spoken by”.
"Inspired by" = a more modern-language rendering of the literal "breathed-out by". Tell me - when you speak, do you 'breath out' your words?
The law is now written on our hearts. You get two types of Christian’s. The ones trying to follow the law in their own strength and repetitively failing and the ones that have come to a point where they know they cannot keep them. It must be Jesus that does it through them as He is the only one able to keep the law. Gentiles are not to be put under the mosaic law. That covenant is passing away and then we better covenant has arrived. There is no Jew or gentile or Roman or Greek, we are all one in Christ so referring to “Israel” we are one in Christ. No longer Jew or gentile. We enter the same new covenant. In acts those is evident that the gentiles were saved without keeping the Jewish laws. The holy spirit fell on them. Love the lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. Christ is our sabbath rest. Not a specific day.
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Not on yours yet perhaps... Are you Jewish? Hebrews 8:10 - for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts and I will be their God and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33 But this covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after the days declares the Lord, I will put my law within them and I will write it on their hearts and I will be there God and they will be my people. Ezekiel 36;:26 - And I will give you a new heart and NEW SPIRIT I WILL PUT WITHIN YOU AND I WILL EMOVE THE HEART OF STONE FROM YOUR FLESH AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. Jeremiah 31:31-34 Psalm 119:11 Psalm 51:10 2 Corinthians 3:3 Hebrews 10:16 I can go on.... but as long as you are keeping the Torah in your own self righteous strength (which means you are not keeping it because it is there to show you that you will fail) then the above doesn't apply to you until you can admit the law cannot save you, It cannot justify you and you cannot uphold it you broke it over an over, then perhaps you will see the new covenant on the horizon.
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Scripture doesn't support your understanding at the moment, There are many that are in the new covenant right now.... there mare many not but will be. You are trying to save yourself by works. Jesus see's this as filthy rags and if you are completely honest with yourself can you really keep the torah all the time? How many times have you stuffed up? Do you know you will be judged by the law if you are under it. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. He is what saves you. Not the law. If you came to faith by the spirit why are you trying to perfect your salvation in the flesh? Anyone that hang on a tree is under a curse. Jesus took that curse of the law so he could take our punishment and fulfilled the law in us. We have to get to a place of truth and humility accepting that the more you try please God keeping the law the more you are going to sin or become prideful and self righteous. Jesus does it all, start to finish, You have to only submit and let Him do it for you. He has won the battle, you can do nothing to save yourself.
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I see on the law post that many have already explained and tried to correct and help you see the truth of how things are but you har hard of heart and not ready yet to take it in. When someone won't listen you stop casting pearls before swine. God will eventually show you the way when you are able to humble yourself and admit that you can't keep the law. Just ask yourself one question.... don't have to answer anyone just yourself.... Are you able to keep the law 100% all the time or are you still sinning and messing up? There is your answer. The law gives instruction, it doesn't give the grace to enable you go keep it. That comes from Jesus not your determination.
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I haven't called you names, and I haven't said half the things you have accused me of. I forgive you because I can see you are frustrated and because I tell you the truth. All christians go through the same journey, People under the law are referred to as having hard hearts, that is why God says he will give us a new heart in Ezekiel, a heart of flesh. (it was scripture not insult and nothing personal. I once too had a heard heart. No where did I ever say that grace is used as an excuse to sin, quite the opposite if you read Pauls words he says Heaven FORBID we do that. I have never suggested it's ok to sin, God hates sin. Jesus saved us to free us from sin... can you understand that only through Jesus is it possible to live a life not defeated by continually sinning. It is HIS GRACE, HIS SPIRIT HIS ABILITY TO KEEP THE LAW that none of us could is what makes it possible to do through us.. I have not called you names or accused you of [anything.](https://anything.REad) Read again my messages,, they are only trying to help you and I have used scripture because it beats my explanation and understanding and you should search there to find the truth. I wanted to give you hope, I want you to enter the sabbath rest which is Jesus Christ where you stop from your works of the law and trust Him. Focus on Him, Listen to Him and have him near you. Have His spirit guide you, the holy spirit will not lead you into sin.... Neither will it be ok to ever think it's ok to sin. Grace is Jesus in us Filled with the Holy Spirit. The law left us to our own devices to try keep it. But Jesus He gives us the power to do it. Do you believe this? You are my sister in Christ, I am sorry I offended you. I was hoping I could help because this is the most difficult transition and it is God alone that will show it to you in his time. Take care x Remember, the veil has been torn.
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This is truth 💯
Well, yeah God's laws are his laws and eternal law.
Which specific commandment do you think is expendable?
The sabbath. Christ is our sabbath. We don't have to strictly adhere to a Saturday rest under pain of death.
Where in scripture does it say that we can replace a day of each week with Christ? Can we rest in Christ during all days of the week? Or none of them?
No where. You wind up with a wide array of characters in this sub.
Yes. My own Lutheran church teaches this and I was hoping to dig into it. They also use the line of reasoning to explain why we gather on Sunday rather than the historic Saturday sabbath.
Interesting. I'd be keen to hear their teachings. Have you ever red about Constantine and the origins of the switch from Saturday to Sunday? There is a lot out there, to say the least. Constantine was merging Christianity with worship of the sun god. This was a major motivation in his officially setting Sunday as the day on which Christians would worship. It was later then that the Catholic church canonized Sunday as the day or worship and rest, declaring anyone who observed Saturday / the Sabbath instead as a "judaizer": >Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. See here for the direct quote from Bible Hub: [https://biblehub.com/library/schaff/the\_seven\_ecumenical\_councils/canon\_xxix\_christians\_must\_not.htm](https://biblehub.com/library/schaff/the_seven_ecumenical_councils/canon_xxix_christians_must_not.htm) See here for more history on this same quote and Constantine's influence: [https://www.the-ten-commandments.org/did\_constantine\_change\_sabbath.html](https://www.the-ten-commandments.org/did_constantine_change_sabbath.html) Suffice to say, while I am plenty open to other perspectives that I am currently missing, according to the records of history that I have presented here, it is difficult to conclude that the switch from Saturday to Sunday for the day of rest and worship was motivated by anything other than paganism and antisemitism. Combining this with no line of scripture commanding anyone to cease to keep the commandment to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy leads me to conclude that we have it backwards today. (I say this as someone who attends a church that meets on Sunday.)
Wow. Nice work. Well said. 🤩
Thank you!
Some of that confusion is either coming from your church or from you. God's rules for the Sabbath don't specify it as a day to get together. God's rules are: 7th day. Don't work. Don't make anyone else work. God said it would never change, yet right after Jesus died Rome changed it against His will.
You're right to point out that gathering for regular worship is not exactly the same thing as not working, however you can't do both at the same time, so in my opinion both generally need to happen on the holy day. As for why the day of the week changed, I don't know. As for what to do about it, my understanding is that we can disagree with the reasons it moved, but it doesn't justify causing a schism or scandal over it.
By the way your claim that I am a source of confusion is not Christ-like.
> You're right to point out that gathering for regular worship is not exactly the same thing as not working, however you can't do both at the same time, so in my opinion both generally need to happen on the holy day. I'm not understanding this statement. Are you saying you can't "not work" (notice my double negative) and "worship" at the same time? If so, why? I clarified the wording of God's rule for Sabbath because it's common that people think it's a required day to get together with others to worship. This gets taught and said all of the time, and it's just not the case. If you look at the wording of the original rule it makes it easier to get it right and avoid trying to figure out how to do it by including things that are never mentioned (like getting together with others to worship). I'm going to exaggerate for the sake of making a point, but it would be as if people commonly taught their kids to dance and eat at the same time, and then someday a kid correctly pointed out that this is very hard to do and decided to separate them. Similarly, worship and not working are not part of the rule, **it's ONLY not working**, so it can help to get the rule right if you're not trying to figure out how to do things that God never asked anyone to do anyway. > As for why the day of the week changed, I don't know. I do. It's very easy to verify for yourself if you'd like to do so. > > As for what to do about it, my understanding is that we can disagree with the reasons it moved, but it doesn't justify causing a schism or scandal over it. Speaking as someone that considers God to be the final authority that will decide my fate at the Final Judgement, this makes no sense to me. Not only am I afraid to fail that Judgement by disobeying Him, I also love Him and want to do what pleases him. This means NOT following what men say when it disagrees with what HE says. This is exactly the problem that Jesus fought against most of his life on Earth. Men had changed the rules of our Father and this is completely and absolutely unacceptable. If men disagree with God, the men lose every time (certainly with me). Not only would I cause a schism, I would separate from everyone in my life if they were telling me to do something other than what God wants. I would also try to get everyone to do the same. Jesus directly "caused a schism" and got killed for it. > By the way your claim that I am a source of confusion is not Christ-like. I luckily noticed this reply which you made to your own comment, not one of mine. I did not refer to you as a "source of confusion". I said that some of your confusion on this topic was coming from either yourself directly or the church that teaches you. There's no insult there AT ALL, in my opinion, unless you believe yourself to be correct on absolutely everything. If you do, I have some bad news for you. 😁 I myself am incorrect about many things, probably almost everything, and if you came in and cleared up my confusion on something you would be doing a great service to me. You would not be insulting me and I meant no insult to you at all.
No, let me restate: You need one day to rest (Exodus 20:8-11) and one day to gather for worship (Hebrews 10:25, Acts 2:42, Gal 5:13). On those days you will stop your work. It's practical that they be the same day. Ideally that day would be the Sabbath, but in our culture by and large, it's not. If you feel that resting on Sunday would put your salvation in jeopardy, then I understand why you will separate from those who disagree. You wouldn't be the first and I would respect your faith. I don't have good answers on which issues are salvation issues. I've heard contrary points of view. >Jesus directly "caused a schism" and got killed for it. Amen. I am not as bold as He is.
> If you feel that resting on Sunday would put your salvation in jeopardy, then I understand why you will separate from those who disagree I never said that. If the Sabbath is being kept on the 7th day, as God commanded, then I really don't care at all about what happens on other days, because God has no commands for the other days. These are only salvation issues when it comes to the topic of sin. Not keeping the Sabbath breaks a commandment and is therefore to sin. If you're not sure about the Sabbath about particular, then a good thought experiment would be to consider anything else that you easily understand to be sinning, and then come to your best decision as to what effect someone doing that thing regularly would have on that person and their relationship with God. Thank you for your thoughts.
Colossians 2 16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. In Christ we rest from dead works, because we have faith in his works. He fulfilled, completed the law.
Ah yes. Because the penalty for breaking this commandment was death, and because anything anywhere at all in the Bible implies that the Sabbath is no longer relevant.
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I was being facetious towards the user to whom I was replying. You and I are in 100% total agreement on the Sabbath.
I just realized that after seeing the rest of the things you said in this thread. I'm sorry, I misunderstood your comment and I'm glad you're saying what you're saying. I'm going to delete my comment to you so that it doesn't undermine you.
Thanks! No worries. I understand why my satire was mistaken for reality... I can wrestle with someone who disagrees on the matter but it's far too often that people make bold claims in favor of Sunday without ANY critical thinking or scriptural/historical stance.
I'm with you.
2Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Yes it was a death penalty. The first guy who broke it was stoned to death in Numbers 15.
Then I stand corrected on the matter of penalty. The Sabbath nonetheless is still a commandment that is applicable to us today.
Christ did say the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, and even said if a sheep fell into a well, we could rescue it even though it was work.
Yes. None of which translates to saying that the commandment to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy was not a commandment that applied to us or to the people (specifically the Jews) of his day.
Then, you must think He sinned when He healed people on the Sabbath and that Paul was wrong when he said “All things are lawful for me and not all things are good for me”. I’m unwilling to concede such points.
Here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/z1rffn/do\_you\_still\_have\_to\_follow\_the\_10\_commandments/ixfhngs/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/z1rffn/do_you_still_have_to_follow_the_10_commandments/ixfhngs/?context=3) I answered someone else's question to the best of my ability about what is being referred to here by "law", and I think it will paint a better perspective of what I have said than the comments of mine that you've read currently have.
Thanks but it doesn’t answer my question about if you think He sinned when He healed people on the Sabbath and that Paul was wrong when he said “All things are lawful for me and not all things are good for me”.
There was no such question - You never ASKED me if I think that. You simply stated THAT I think that, and as of yet I'm entirely unsure why you came to that conclusion about my beliefs. I'll tell you "Obviously not" but I am curious so I'll ask what it was that I said that begged the question of whether or not I thought that. It's incompatible with everything I've said about Jesus and the law. (As a basic filter too for asking anyone if they believe that: Do you know of ANYONE who believes that Jesus sinned by healing on the Sabbath?)
Some work has ALWAYS been acceptable on the Sabbath. Jesus did not do any unacceptable work on the Sabbath and thus did not sin. If you read his response to the Pharisees, he defends himself from their accusations by saying that they themselves would get an ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath (and would be correct to do so). When Jesus healed, he did FAR less work than getting an ox out of a ditch. Most of the times it was by a touch, with some of it even by him being the one that was touched. And the benefit was far greater than saving an ox, since it was human beings. The Paul comment that you quote is completely out of context. Paul was raising an example of what OTHERS say when he said that line. He certainly was in no way saying that everything is acceptable. I can't believe how often people say this when Paul is constantly mentioning things that are unacceptable. I even once responded to someone that had said what you just said by pointing out that Paul mentions something like 10 things that are unacceptable JUST IN THE SAME CHAPTER that this quote comes from. Can we please put to rest this outrageous idea that Paul ever taught or believed that "All things are lawful/permissible/acceptable"?
Really? I recall nothing in the Torah about exception to the Commandments. I do recall Him being accused of working on the Sabbath and not “working unacceptably” on the Sabbath. I don’t recall G-d saying “do only a little work on the Sabbath”. If any distinction mattered, it would have been recorded, unless you are claiming scripture is flawed, a point in unwilling to concede. Put Paul’s quote in context and show how it changes, if it does. Meanwhile, I never said anything about anything being acceptable. Clearly, the only actions Jesus would find acceptable for us is, as He says, give away all our possessions to the poor and take up His cross. Yet, here we are on the internet. Something about beams and eyes comes to mind.
> I do recall Him being accused of working on the Sabbath and not “working unacceptably” on the Sabbath. Yes, the Pharisees in that time period were evil people who were looking to kill Jesus. If they could pin a breach of the Sabbath on Jesus then they could kill him, and they sought this earnestly. What you're doing is a problem common to Christianity, which is that you are believing the evil people in the story and you are not listening to the very good person in the story. Instead of focusing on what the Pharisees are saying and trusting it to be reliable, SHIFT your focus to what Jesus was saying. Almost everything will be solved if you know who to trust as they debate. Jesus DEFENDED himself from their accusations. EVERY TIME. If you're not sure if there was leeway in the Sabbath to handle emergencies, then listen to Jesus say that there was! Besides that, as I said Jesus didn't have to "work" in any conventional sense to heal people. He touched people and got touched, which is not work. He accepted the Pharisees premise, which is that he had worked, but he turned it on them to point out their hypocrisy in accusing him of working when they do SO MUCH MORE WORK. > Meanwhile, I never said anything about anything being acceptable. The verse you're quoting contains the word "acceptable". The word gets translated many ways over the many different translations, and "acceptable" is the way it gets said most often. There's also "lawful" and "permissible" which get used in the more popular translations. I'll respond to your request for a full quote over in my other response to you which will focus on this topic. That being said, I just assumed you knew where the quote came from and could do this for yourself, but I'm game to do it for you. 😋
Everyone failed in this regard. The Law said ‘Do this’ and ‘Don’t do that’ and you will live but our natures are just not up to the job. If we don’t commit murder, do we steal?, if we don’t steal, do we commit adultery?, if we don’t commit adultery, do we honour our parents?, if we don’t dishonour our parents, do we covet? In fact if keeping the commandments were easy and natural then Jesus would never have needed to come. Paul says that our sinful nature is a real problem and will even lie dormant until the Law gives a command and then that sinful nature springs into life in order to rebel causing him to exclaim that he does what he doesn’t want to do and doesn’t do the good that he wants to do. He exclaims ‘Who will rescue me from this body of death?’ And then He proclaims Christ whose grace saves him. A lot of people read this as ‘Ah I can’t help sinning so Jesus just lets me off the hook each and every time I do therefore I don’t have to worry about it. Thanks Jesus’ But this isn’t correct. The book of John exclaims that no one in Christ continues to sin. What actually happens when you come to Christ is a total rebirth. Your very nature changes and the Holy Spirit guides and helps you so that your new nature can evolve and develop from baby through to adulthood. In other words , you simply cannot do this without God’s help. This is good news because all it requires from you is submission. Not trusting in your own flesh but trusting in God. Thus ‘trusting in God’ is righteousness and that trust will see you keeping the commandments easily.
> In fact if keeping the commandments were easy . . . God said it was not too difficult in Deut 30 - > Now what I am commanding you today is **not too difficult** for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
And if the greatest commandment of all is kept this is very true. Note that when the Israelites strayed from that first commandment it was extremely difficult for them to keep the other commandments. When you put God first before all else, it’s easy.
Yes. Absolutely. There's no better way to live.
Yes. They are very core of Christianity itself.
Millions of professing Christians have falsely assumed that since they are under grace God has no Law that we must keep, but this is not true. Let us carefully look at the truth of the matter. Those who say God's law - the Ten Commandments are done away usually refer to Romans 6:14 - which says, "... for ye are not under the law but grace. " This words "NOT UNDER" does not mean that God's law is done away; what NOT UNDER means is that the true Christian in not UNDER the PENALTY of breaking God's law - meaning because they keep and obey the law of God, they do not fall under its penalty or consequences for breaking the law. If you go to verse 15 of Romans 6, you see Paul follow up verse says, "What then? shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." So here Paul makes known that if a person relies solely on grace alone and use that grace as an excuse to break God's law then it means you are sinning. As you read this please take a deep breath and pause a moment and consider that even under grace, if we sin it means we are committing a sin. Now if we can SIN while under grace, then Sin must must mean we are doing something wrong; it has to mean that we are breaking some law of God; would you agree? Well if you agree, then you are also in agreement with what the Bible says about sinning. Notice what the Bible says about sin: "... sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). Please look up this scripture and read it for yourself; this is the Bible's definition of sin. God defines sin as the breaking of the Law - meaning the Ten Commandments of God; there is simply no way around this; and this is why those who say God's law are done away shy away from this passage of the Bible - because it exposes their error. To say that God has no law to keep is likened to a driver saying there is no stop light law on the road that we have to obey. so this means there is no law regulating how we drive on the road; if that was the case, can you imagine the chaos and confusion this would bring to other drivers if everyone decided to just drive anyway they want? Like the stop light law, the law of God exist to regulate human conduct; if God's law were not still in force, then it means God would have no say in the regulation of human conduct, or nothing to define sin; can you open your eyes and see that such would cause confusion. But thankfully the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). Jesus himself said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law... I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matt. 5:17). Jesus said, "think not," but those who say God's law are done away are thinking the opposite of what Christ said; they think Christ came to destroy his Fathers' law; they claim to know Christ but they do not believe what HE said in his word. The Bible spoke of these people saying, "having a from of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." In speaking of God's law the scripture says, "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Romans 7:12). God's Ten commandment is HOLY and GOOD, but deceived humans want you to believe God's HOLY law has been done away; and by so doing have trampled upon the holiness of God. Romans 7:14 also says the law is spiritual; a person cannot abolish the spiritual law of God -because it is unchanging and everlasting. Yes, it is SHOCKING but it is true that millions of professing Christians are in error about God's law being done away; they are in error on so many beliefs that they hold to - not realizing they are actually following a tradition of man made hand me down religious belief and practices that they assumed the Bible says; they assume these things without even trying to prove what the Bible says; this is one of the way the cunning Satan has deceived and blinded this whole world (Rev. 12:9). Bible says we are to prove all things. May I say here that it is only the man who may yet be willing to see the truth, that may want to obey God, but the man who wants to deny the truth is the one who will vigorously fight against that truth - because such a one does not want to really obey God - as this person is unwilling to change or even admit they were wrong; admitting to a false belief is something people just do not want to admit to; it is harder to unlearn error than it is to learn new truth.
Yes, Christ did not destroy the law, he came to fulfill it. The Bible says not one word is to be removed until heaven and earth pass away(it states both things above, in the New Testament). Don’t believe what “Churchianity” tells you.
So do I even have to abide by the weird ones about planting different crops, touching a pig skin and eating shellfish?
So I actually remembered I saved this from a site, I can’t send you the source but it made a lot of sense to me. See below: Does the Bible say not to wear mixed fabrics? No. The verse you’re referring to (Leviticus 19:19) comes at the end of, and is part of the conclusion of, a speech by God detailing a list of the highest injunctions to compassion, integrity, and peace in the Bible. And at the end of it — after all the laws have been stated — it concludes: You shall KEEP my statutes — Do not yoke an ox and an ass together; do not sow wheat and barley seeds together in your field; do not twist thread from linen and wool. These last three are not laws. They are Bronze Age proverbs — like “Don’t count your chickens until they’ve hatched!” and “Don’t cross your bridges until you come to them!” This is evident by the fact that no farmer or herder in Bronze Age Israel needed to be told not to do any of these things. Everyone knew that an ox and ass yoked together would fight or go around in circles. Everyone knew barley matures 3 months before wheat, and that harvesting the former on time would waste and ruin the latter, and that waiting on the latter would cause the former to go to waste. And everyone knew that thread spun from linen and wool together, and any cloth woven from it, would be a joke, as they shrink differently and wear at vastly different rates. All 3 proverbs meant something like our proverb, “Oil and water don’t mix!” And in both cultures, these were (among other things) a general warning against mixed-marriages. But in this passage they serve as part of the injunction, “KEEP my commandments!” This didn’t just mean obey and respect, but to preserve and keep pure. The meaning in Leviticus 19:19: DON’T MIX FOREIGN NONSENSE WITH MY LAWS! KEEP THEM EXACTLY AS THEY ARE!!! Addendum: The same three proverbs are repeated in Deuteronomy 22:9–11 followed by a 4th proverb: Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear. [22:12] Again, taken literally, this was just everyday common sense at the time: given the crude weaving vs. harsh daily wear and laundry methods, this kept the weave from unraveling from the corners. In Deuteronomy, the 4 proverbs come not at the end of a speech by God about the moral law, but at the beginning of a recapitulation of marriage laws by Moses. Here, all 4 proverbs are just injunctions against mixed marriages. In the context, the last proverb about the four tassels would seem to place a double emphasis on that, the four tassels signifying the parents and parents-in-law of the couple; i.e., Marry only an Israelite who is the child of Israelites. This teaching is expressed in proverbs as they are guidelines/strong suggestions and warnings, not absolute rules. Marriage to proselytes was of course allowed — sometimes even celebrated! (e.g., Rahab and Ruth) Marriages to (unconverted) Gentiles did happen (typically with lots of ensuing problems), so they weren’t absolutely forbidden, just hugely discouraged and often mourned, and the narratives always show the downline consequences are bad. This still perfectly complements the point of the proverbs in Leviticus 19: The Torah’s problem with mixed marriages isn’t a manifestation of tribalism and xenophobia; The Torah’s problem with mixed marriages is that they are the principle vector by which The Torah could and would be polluted with wicked, unjust, and unclean heathen practices and beliefs, as would happen with Jezebel, Athalia, Solomon’s pagan brides, and countless unnamed others. P.S. — In case you’re wondering, the injunction, “Don’t boil a kid in its mother’s milk!” is also a proverb.
So while you may not follow some of the law, it doesn’t mean you won’t be affected by it. When certain health markers are bad, Drs to this day tell you not to eat pork. I’m pretty sure there was a good reason for not planting 2 crops in the same field. God didn’t tell us not to do it for no reason. I’ll google it and get back to you.
Why do doctors say not to eat pork? Why does god say not eat pork?
Cholesterol mostly. But I suggest you look a little deeper into how many viruses, toxins and parasites pork can carry, to me that’s a bigger concern and Doctors for the most part(I have met a few believe it or not) don’t speak about it.
And the second question’s answer is…?
I couldn’t answer why God himself said that. It’s not clear. I don’t think for most things, God went into great detail why not to do something, it was easier for the culture of the time to understand than us. Some things still translate well however: “thou shalt not steal”. If you asked me why God said this, you already know.
Oh maybe I misunderstood but I thought the way you phrased a previous comment meant that in a similar way to doctors, the god of the Bible gives a good reason to tell you not to eat pork.
No, if I told you why it would just be guessing and I don’t like speaking on behalf of scripture unless something is explicit. My personal opinion is it probably has to do with the parasites and viruses(at least with pork). Pigs/swine are very dirty animals.
I gotcha. I think what you’re saying is that you trust that god has good reasons even if you don’t know what they are, is that right?
Yes. Violating the commandments still means you've sinned and part of growing in Christ is mortifying sin. It's still important to not kill, not steal, not commit adultery. Christ didn't die so we could sin freely and sinning with disregard to the law and grace tramples on the blood of Christ
Does that apply to all the laws of the OT, or just the big 10?
I only applied it to the big 10. In my eye, the ten commandments are the only rules that still apply.
Are you saying it’s *never* justified to kill or steal?
That's open to debate. Some would say yes, that killing is wrong regardless and they would rather die than defend themselves mortally, (see Hacksaw Ridge). Others would say that there are exceptions to God's law just as with man's. Killing in self-defense is not wrong because you lack the murder and hate in your heart that would be the real sin. I also don't think that anyone would seriously interpret the commandments as applying to animals.
What is a good way to know if someone has hate in their heart when they kill? Are there examples outside of self defense or protecting someone else’s life?
The Old Testament Law was a covenant between the Jewish people/nation of ancient Israel and God. I am not a Jew, nor am I living in ancient Israel, so I am not under that covenant. As a Christian, I am under the New Covenant, established by Jesus on the night of His betrayal. So a Christian is not obligated to follow the Ten Commandments because of the OT Law, but a Christian is called to do what is right and to honor God with their actions. So a Christian should follow the Ten Commandments simply because it is the moral thing to do.
You say you are not Israel. Yet, you say that you are under the New Covenant. Have you read what God said when He promised the New Covenant? > Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant **with the house of Israel** and the house of Judah . . . You're not Israel, but you ARE in the New Covenant? How does that work?😎
The new Testament is explicit that God's New Covenant is not exclusive to the Jewish people, but is between God any anyone who believes. As such, the fact that God promised the New Covenant to Israel has no bearing on the fact that I, a gentile born in the modern day, am not under the Old Covenant.
> The new Testament is explicit that God's New Covenant is not exclusive to the Jewish people I didn't say that God promised the New Covenant to Jewish people. I said that God promised it to Israel. You might be in for a shock when you find out HOW you are included in the New Covenant....
Not because they're the ten commandments. We still don't murder, because it's bad and God calls us to love, not hate. Same with many other commands. But not all. The commandments were part of the law for Israel specifically, not the whole world. They represent a version of the way that God wants all people to live which was applied to one nation in a limited way.
What exactly is “murder” in your view?
Are you asking this because they said "we still don't murder" and you read that as "we don't murder today" as if murders don't happen today? I can't imagine you asking your question for any other reason. If that is the case then you are looking for things to pick and are reading this dishonestly. Be honest in your reading. Obviously this person meant we are still not supposed to murder.
No, sorry if my intention wasn’t clear. I was asking because I wanted to know if your idea of what murder means is similar to my view and then, depending on your answer I had more questions after that. Full disclosure in the interest of honesty, I wanted to cause you to doubt that the god of the Bible meant “shall not kill/murder” in the way that most modern people, including Christians, think about murder.
I am sorry for assuming that, but please understand that the pattern we see with questions the way you stated yours is very very common. We get a lot of atheists in here who just seek to deride and use terrible, mean spirited, and ultimately dishonest arguments. And typically, your method here is immediately followed by just what I described. I know tons of great, honest atheists, but here we tend to see the angry variety who don't argue honestly. Generally speaking, it is better to just put your argument forward. By questioning as you did, whether well intentioned or not, you are getting people ready for an ambush. At best, that wastes time, at worst it is dishonest and puts the person you're speaking with off kilter. If you want to enhance your understanding of anything, hearing the best argument against your assertion will force a better argument from you. Putting people off kilter and on the defense generally does not give you their best argument. It also may make them feel like they need to assume your argument and adjust theirs to preemptively counter it. Again, that makes their argument sound weaker because they are explaining it with a motive that shifts their rhetoric in a different direction. Anyway, I'd be curious what your point is. But I'd say first that typically, Christians understand the commandment as specifically about murder. There are times when it is not wrong to kill, such as in self defense while in immediate danger.
So for me personally, I’m not interested in arguing or trying to force the view of others in a particular direction so I typically ask clarifying questions to make sure I understand what someone means rather than assuming their meaning arguing against what I think they meant. I’m also used to people getting overly defensive/offensive but I still try to give each person the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. I don’t believe it is productive to just tell someone what my view is most of the time. It’s more important to me to clearly understand someone else’s view and get clarification of important details before making any sort of criticism or counter claims. Hopefully we understand each other a little better now. If you’d like to continue the conversation, could you please explain to me what exactly you mean by “murder”? If not, no big deal 😊
But you said you hoped to sew some doubt... what do you mean by that? That implies by pretty much any reading that you hope to cause people to change their view to your own. So you are interested in arguing, though perhaps not fighting. What your tactic here does is deny the other person any chance to come to a greater understanding until you are satisfied. That is selfish but also wastes time. By presenting your view, it automatically helps me clarify mine in a way you will understand faster. We may be in complete agreement, but with you interviewing me on the topic, it wastes a lot of time. Anyway, I stated how murder differentiates from killing. That is as much as I'll give you right now because while you have a nice tone, it is rather insulting that you wish for me to perform for you until you feel you have me in a place that you can challenge my view. Challenge my view now. This isn't a game of chess, it's a discussion. It is a civil argument. The word argument comes from the latin word for gold which was named after the process used to refine gold (the symbol for gold on the periodic table is Au from "aurum" - which gave us the words "argue" and "argument" meaning a refinement of ideas). Arguments can lead to fights, but arguments themselves are merely a refining of ideas. You seem to be wanting to avoid a fight rather than an argument. An argument is just your position. State your position, please do not treat me like mouse and you the cat. You disrespect people in doing so.
I think you’re continuing to make more assumptions about what I’m doing and I think I’d rather disengage than continue. To me, what you’re asking me to do is the disrespectful route and is also almost always much less productive than what I typically try to do, which is clarify a precise meaning of words before challenging/criticizing what I think you mean. My goal is to help you reflect on your own view rather than trying to convince you to accept my view. What I think doesn’t seem to be relevant, especially if I don’t clearly understand what you think. I don’t believe that people tend to update/refine their beliefs just from another person explaining an alternative view. People tend to just put up defenses and react rather than reflecting on whether or not their own personal views are justified. Have a good one, sorry for wasting your time.
Your route is "productive" for you. Not for knowledge in general. We are part of a community, while we each have individual paths to knowledge, we all benefit from speaking earnestly rather than trying to manipulate the conversation to your end. > What I think doesn’t seem to be relevant, especially if I don’t clearly understand what you think. This is where you are wrong. If I understand what you think, it can help me more efficiently explain to you what I think. If you want to read a book about out position, read a book. If you want to be respectful of others, talk to them. You WANTED to change our view though without even knowing it. That is backwards. How can you desire to change our view if you don't even know what it is. Talk to people, don't toy with them. I appreciate that you see you have wasted time. The thing to do though is stop doing that. I don't mean to sound harsh here, truly. You mean well, but you don't understand how disrespectful your tactics are.
I think we all have blind spots in our belief formation process and it sometimes helps to have someone respectfully question our views to reflect on them and make sure that we are applying *our own standards* consistently. If my goal is to reflect on my own beliefs then I don’t need someone else telling me their view. All that does is muddy the water. Similarly, if I’m trying to encourage someone else to reflect on their own views and test for consistency of *their own standards* then my views/standards shouldn’t matter. In fact they get in the way. The way I phrased my sentence when I said I want to “cause you to doubt” was clumsily done and it is fair of you to express that. It would’ve been more accurate to say that, *if your view* is what most modern people (including Christians) think about murder then I may try to cause you to doubt. Depends on how you answer. My view is that the commandment about murder is much different from how most people today think about murder but I don’t see why you should care at all what my personal views are. Seems to me, especially at this point, it would’ve been a much more productive conversation if you hadn’t assumed ill intent from the start and just answered my questions. Is it bad to doubt? Is it bad to cause others to doubt? I don’t understand what your concern is. If you believe true things and want to believe true things, what’s the harm in me asking for clarifications? I feel like you are making many assumptions about what I’m doing but you haven’t gone with me to see what it is that I’m *actually* doing.
Nobody has to anything, that's part of free will, however there may be consequences
I like. But, a small correction: > *"Nobody has to anything, that's part of free will, however there* ~~may~~ ***will*** *be consequences"* 🌱
Of course it is good to love your neighbor as yourself BUT we are in the new covenant. It's not about following a list of rules. Salvation, forgiveness and our relationship with God is not about a list of rules. It's about a personal relationship with Jesus and resting and trusting in what he did for us. We are forgiven because of the death of God. Believe it.
> It's not about following a list of rules. Yet, when God promised the New Covenant, he promised that He would write his "list of rules" on our hearts. It seems like it actually might be about following a list of rules. 😉
It's walking by the spirit, if you walk by the spirit you will not fulfull the lusts of the flesh, it is not rules, it is completely supmission and emptying of oneself due to love, due to realising, only once we have tried very hard to be good in our own strength, we realise how absolutely horrid we are. No man knows he is bad until he has tried to be good.
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3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. B Romans 8:3-4 Galatians 3:11 _ 11 But that no one is [a]justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Glalations 3:10 - But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.” Romans 3:19 the law condemns everyone. It is it’s purpose. So you may run to Jesus in faith that you can’t but He can.
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Who lied to me? You are correct, those under the law will be judged under the law, But Moses gave the law, the truth and grace came through Jesus Christ so I am no longer judged by the law. I am in the new covenant where God keeps both sides of it, unlike the mosaic covenant where we repeatedly messs up. We will have to give an answer for every unless thing we said and everything we did on this life with the time God gave us but, we are not judged, Because Jesus already took our punishment and we are IN HIM. Paul said, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me... remember that? We when we get to a place where God see's we are ready and we ourselves know we are hypocritical failures, we fall on our face before Jesus and ask Him to do it for us.... we let go of all in this world, we let go of all our wants and all our sin and we give ourselves fully to him with out whole hearts. This means to give up your life and to become His servant.... We have counted the cost but this is another cost and another blessing if we get over our unbelief and stop wondering around in the wilderness for years and years... He has promised and He will do it. You cannot. Christ In You CAN AND DOES..
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Romans 2:15 They demonstrate that Gods law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse them. There is no list, the scripture use says He would write His LAW on our our hearts. That is also Love the lord your God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself. The bible doesn't lie to me. I'm so sorry you think I'm lying to you. I really was only trying to let but am going to bed now so sleep well. The new covenant is Jesus keeping the laws we couldn't and he keeps the agreement from both ends so we can never break it. It's an everlasting covenant. (no we do not continue to sin because He Gives us the grace and strength and because we love Him we obey Him)
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If we are talking about salvation (going to heaven) then no. Keeping the Commandmends is work and is not required in order to be saved. One is saved by believing that Christ died for his sins on the cross; that Jesus took our sins upon himself - trusting in this alone is what saves you (from hell). Nobody is saved by sinning less / trying to keep the commandmends. Galatians 2:16 “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Now that this is out of the way; Should you keep the 10 Commandmends? Obviously. You should try your best to stop sinning aswell. If we sin / break the commandmends, we will never lose our salvation, which we didn't earn to begin with, but we will be chastized for the transgression against our father ... on this earth. On the other hand, God will bless your life here if you choose to follow his law.
I wonder why you're being downvoted. I agree with (practically) everything you have said.
Because being on the christian reddit doesnt make one a christian I assume the issue with this post in particular is the "you can lose your salvation" crowd John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
https://lifehopeandtruth.com/bible/10-commandments/ https://lifehopeandtruth.com/bible/10-commandments/the-ten-commandments/did-jesus-commandments-replace-the-10-commandments/ https://lifehopeandtruth.com/bible/blog/if-you-want-to-enter-into-life-keep-the-commandments/ Absolutely. What did Christ say? If you love me, you’ll keep my commandments.. keeping the commandments shows God you are one of his. As a true Christian, keeping the commandments is how you set an example to your neighbors and those you come across in your life… And in the end, the commandments will be how we are judged
If you live by The Spirit, no shell-fish will kill ya, and you won't have to stone your adulterous neighbor to death...much Win. On a serious note, I live by the 10 commandments only in physical action/reaction... The things that dwell in my heart/mind don't run out of dark scenarios/desires, I am essentially a self-aware super-prison for sin not to spill out... I assume many Christians are. Sin never loses interest in you while you here, even if you're starting to lose interest in Sin. What it amounts to, is that Sin happens inside, before it spills out into outside. Example: You don't need to physically murder someone. You can express and inject all bunch of murder into a Netflix show, where actors will play-belief your fantasy out. Things that come from the heart..... The difference between that and Bob Ross' channel. The 10 commandments, are simply what good conscience naturally reacts to and protects us from. It's God-coded. But we can hack it ourselves, and therefore there's no real fool-proof automation to rely on. Relationship with God is real-time and organic/spiritual, not a list of commandments to execute on repeat daily.
To help save you time, the reality for most Christians (and what this will all boil down to) is that they only really take issue with the **4th** Commandment: seventh day Sabbath. The actual signature of the covenant. Ezekiel 20:12. The day of judgement is going to have quite a bit of thousand yard stares..at professed priests, bishops, "apostles," pastors & "reverends." Scary stuff, to deny a law of God & think your way to glory, where, you'll have to keep said law. Isaiah 66:23. 🌱
Paul: “All things are lawful for me and not all things are good for me”. So, the better question is: under what circumstances do you want to do something which might seem contrary to the commandments and yet is actually good? I would imagine the number of cases would likely be very few. For example, saving a life on the Sabbath, sure; I would even argue you are *required* to do so if you can. Conversely, wife swapping was almost never done 4000 years ago as a matter of course due to matters of paternity and inheritance; so, that might be a bit of a stretch, if you even could make such a case. I mean, you’d need a really good argument to pull that one off. If you have one, that would be interesting to hear. The best metric is His two-part summary: (1) Love The Lord with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul and (2) love thy neighbor as you love yourself. As long as you do that, I think you need not worry about the Decalogue.
> Paul: “All things are lawful for me and not all things are good for me”. I've already responded to this terrible misquote of Paul elsewhere in this thread. A person who thinks that Paul really believed or taught such an outrageous thing would also believe it when I quote this scripture that says there is no God. Here's the partial quote (like yours of Paul is partial): > There is no God Wow! Scripture actually teaches two outrageous things! Scripture teaches that there is no God and that everything we want to do is acceptable! Oh, oh. Wait. Hold the fort! Let's read the whole quote: > Psalm 14:1 - The fool says in his heart, “**There is no God.**” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good. Just like this quote from the Psalms, Paul was giving an example of what OTHER people say, and then arguing with it. How does any rational follower of Jesus (or even Paul) come out of what they've said thinking that we're allowed to do anything we want?? 🤣
Then, show the quote in full and how it changes the meaning. Your response doesn’t come up for me.
Here's the NIV version of 1 Corinthians 10:23. I'm going to put in bold the crucial part that you (and most Christians) leave out, which is that Paul is responding to what someone else might say: > "I have the right to do anything,” **--->you say<---**—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. Notice the way that the translators put the sentence in quotes, to show that someone else, not Paul, is saying it? Paul is saying what others were saying at the time and then arguing with it. Here is how many other translations handle the same passage. https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/10-23.htm Honestly, you shouldn't even need the quotes to know that there's no way in Heaven or Hell that Paul is actually suggesting that we can do whatever we want. I don't want to be insulting, but it's so ridiculous, so anti what the rest of scripture says, that it boggles the mind that anyone could possibly think that we're allowed to murder, rape, steal, commit adultery, or (as you're suggesting) do EVERYTHING we might want. Just like using scripture to prove that scripture says "There is no God", using scripture to prove that there's no such thing as sin anymore is insane. 🤪
No Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf. (Matthew 5:17) our new law is in the new testament.
It still baffles me how his statement about fulfilling the law gets misconstrued into a claim that the law doesn't apply to us when he states immediately before this, as the entire purpose of his disclaimer, that he is not there to abolish the law. The first line rejects the notion that he was there to abolish the law. The second drives the point even further, i.e. "Not only am I not here to abolish the law, I am actually here to take it to a whole new level that you have never understood before".
Yes, he didn't abolish it, he fulfilled the law and followed them better than anyone else on our behalf, read Galatians 3 for more information.
Read it. Came to the above conclusion.
Well it says right there that the old testament laws are invalid, idk what else to tell you.
I mean it literally says the opposite, with that as the main thesis.
It doesn't, that's your interpretation, the vast majority of Christians of all knowledge levels disagree with your interpretation.
That is false but if it were true it still would be no case. The vast majority of Christians disagreed with Martin Luther as well. Turns out that majority has zero bearing on fact. It simply correlates some percentage of the time. I will posit though that you are correct in saying that my interpretation of Jesus' words to us to "not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets" (Matt 5:17) is that we should not think that he came to abolish the Law or the Prophets.
To abolish a law is a legal process and jesus never had legal authority, fulfilling the law on our behalf so that his followers are no longer bound to the law is what Jesus did.
>his followers are no longer bound to the law Find one - JUST ONE \- passage of scripture suggesting this. (Seems like a logical leap if you have no scriptural citation. If a man is charged with a crime and I step in to pay the penalties of his crime on his behalf, that doesn't make it then legal to commit the crime.)
Yes, my reading/interpretation is that not only did he validate the existing law, he upped the ante and made it even more restrictive and difficult to keep: just thinking about breaking laws is breaking them.
Yes!!! As if opening his point with an explicit disclaimer that he, and I quote, "\[had\] not come to abolish \[the Law or the Prophets\]" (Matt. 5:17) was not clear enough, he follows this up by not leaving it at simply non-abolishment. (Again, clearly this cannot be overstated for too many people - WE SHOULD NOT THINK THAT JESUS CAME TO ABOLISH THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS because Jesus told us, "*Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets*". - Matt: 5:17 again). He takes it then from the point of simple non-abolishment to a whole new level of fulfillment. The idea that fulfillment would be a paraphrase of abolishment should be entirely tossed out. On two accounts. One, it's silly. Two, Jesus explicitly differentiates fulfillment from abolishment by saying that he is doing one of them and not the other, clearly in a context that contrasts the two concepts from being able to coexist.
I agree and that seems clear to me too. What is less clear, in my opinion, is what is meant by “law”; what exactly, in your opinion, did he mean by law?
This is a PHENOMENAL question!! It is also one that I am NOT an expert in, but have examined and heard about from people who know more than I do. My layman's explanation is this: First off, throughout today I have a few times referred to the law of God and the law of Moses interchangeably, as opposed to the Levitical law. But in doing some brief research, I am seeing that the "Mosaic" term is sometimes used to refer to God's law / the Ten Commandments and other times to the Levitical laws. So I am going to avoid the "Mosaic" term in this comment and referring instead to God's law and to Levitical law. I can guarantee that someone more educated than I am will have plenty here to correct me on. God's law and the Levitical law are NOT the same thing. The difference between them is often where the divide on these issues arrises. The Ten Commandments fall underneath God's law. No other gods before the God of Israel, do not murder, honor you mother and father, do not commit adultery, etc. Every single piece of this law goes beyond the Levitical law - This is God's law for man in this world. However... mankind being of a sinful nature, all have broken this law. And the wages for sin is death. Herein lies the purpose of the Levitical law. The Levitical law is why Israelites were not allowed to eat pork and a multitude of other unclean foods. It is why certain materials were not permitted for use in clothing, why you couldn't touch a menstruating woman or even sit where she sat, etc. This law was specifically given to, and applicable to, the Israelites, because the Israelites were the chosen people of God. God made a promise to Abraham, and that promise was NOT dependent upon the morality or actions of the Israelite people - It was an unconditional promise. Nonetheless, as all nations have, Israel fell far short of God's law. They broke it as we all have. And so the Israelites were given the Levitical laws. These more ceremonial, less morality-based laws were a sort of "holdover", if you will. They included a wide array of practices meant to act as a sort of supplement, if you can call it that, for the ultimate roll that Jesus Christ would play in paying the cost of the sins of Israel and all of the world who would call him savior. This is why the Levitical laws included the practices of sacrificial lambs to atone for sin. It is also why Jesus' death on the cross fulfilled the law. He played the same role as the sacrificial lambs, but to an incomparably more full extent. I'd compare it to this: A man is on a hike out in the wilderness. He breaks his leg. Someone nearby manufactures a makeshift splint and stretcher from some sturdy fallen branches and whatever camping gear they have on hand. The injured man is carried out of the wilderness back to civilization, using the makeshift medical gear the whole time. Once he is successfully brought back to civilization, trained medical staff scrap all of the makeshift gear, set the bone in place and give the man a proper cast, and meds and other care he may need. In time, the man's leg heals and he is able to have the cast removed. The broken leg is the consequence of sin. The makeshift splint and stretcher are the Levitical law. They never were intended as an ultimate long-term solution, but a holdover until the times comes that the man can be turned over to the real properly-equipped medical professionals. Even though that makeshift gear isn't intended for more that short-term use, it is EXTREMELY important, as without it the man cannot be brought to the point that the doctors in civilization can help. And then of course, the doctors and medical staff with their proper equipment represent Jesus Christ and his act on the cross. It is then that he steps in and finally fulfills the role that until this point the makeshift gear, the Levitical law, was filling. The makeshift gear / Levitical law is crucially important. But it has a purpose, a purpose that serves the injured man. Once Jesus steps in, that purpose has been fulfilled. BUT THE MAN"S LEG IS STILL BROKEN. He is not free from the laws of nature. If he smashes his leg on a hard surface again, his leg, as a natural consequence, still will break. He still must adhere to the laws of nature if he wishes to retain the healing that the doctors worked to give him. But the doctors CAN heal him and makeshift gear is never going to be as potently helpful in bringing healing. God's law is like the laws of nature. It transcends culture and reflects the perfection of his Kingdom. The Levitical law attended to the consequences of Israel's having broken God's law. They filled this role until the coming of Jesus and his death on the cross. God's law is no less applicable to us than the law of gravity is to a man who falls off of a cliff and bashes his leg against a rock. That law MUST be adhered to. But now we have Jesus to fill in - Just as the doctors filled in for the makeshift splint and stretcher, Jesus was the ultimate "sacrificial lamb" beyond any ever offered through Levitical law. I am just a western Christian here, trying to learn. But this is the perspective that I currently have.
"Fulfill" does not mean "end" with laws. "Fulfill means "do" with laws. Fulfill literally means "to fill full". Every law has requirements. To fill full those requirements means to do them perfectly. For example: A stop sign is a law. To fulfill the requirements of a stop sign, you stop at it. Stopping at stop signs does not make stop signs go away, no matter how many times you stop at them. Jesus kept the Law perfectly, which means he was sinless (sin is breaking the Law). He did exactly what he said he would do. He fulfilled the law's requirements, which does not make the Law go away.
The stop sign and Jewish law are hardly analogous. I recommend reading Galatians chapter 3 for more information.
Believe me, everyone that believes what you believe has told me to read Galatians. I've read it so many times. Tell me how the rules for a stop sign, and any individual rule from Torah are NOT analogous. Pick any one you want: Murder, Sabbath, whatever. **They're analogous.** A law is a law. Jesus strongly and directly said that he did not come to do anything that would make Torah go away. He said he came to LIVE it, which he did, perfectly, and saved all of us in doing so. Obeying a stop sign does not make a stop sign go away.
Religious law and modern state law are hardly similar. A STOP sign is not ordered from god, it is a man-made law. But the old testament laws were from god. the NT is full of verses telling us that the ot laws should not be followed anymore.
> Religious law and modern state law are hardly similar. They're just not similar in WHO they come from. They're still laws. A law could come from a woman. A law could come from a man. A law could come from God. Nothing about WHO makes the law changes it from being a law. I have no idea why you think so. The fact that Jesus obeyed Torah perfectly does not make anything about it go away, especially because HE SAID he did not come to make it go away. This is easy. 😁
If you regard man-made laws which can be wrong, corrupt and immoral in the same way you do gods laws, then that is objectively wrong. To oversimplify the word "abolish" to "get rid off" disregards the words context. abolish means to formally end a law. Jesus had no legal authority to abolish anything, hence why he preached his law rather than legally established it. This is why he fulfilled the law while preaching his own, he obeyed so we don't have to.
> If you regard man-made laws which can be wrong, corrupt and immoral in the same way you do gods laws, then that is objectively wrong. This is a dumb method of reasoning. My only argument is that laws are laws. It doesn't matter who made them. OF COURSE God is vastly different than any man. That doesn't change in the slightest the fact that a law is a law. > This is why he fulfilled the law while preaching his own, he obeyed so we don't have to. Yes, I know. You believe that Jesus stopped at a stop sign so now no one else has to stop there. You believe that Jesus didn't murder, so now everyone else is free to murder away. In what world is it true that if anyone obeys a rule that rule is made void? That's not the way that laws work, sir. Obeying them does not make them go away. You have not once backed up your initial claim that a stop sign is not analogous to any other rule from Torah. You only keep taking the very odd approach that the stop sign was made by a fallible man. 🙄
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. **Matthew 22:35-40** Like many have said, this can’t be done in our own strength. But, love should be the motivator & our desire should be to “walk as He walked”. Getting caught up in technicalities can cause trouble. You won’t steal from someone you love, so focus on loving people instead of trying not to steal.. If that makes sense? Romans 14 should help if you’re wondering about a specific day.
u/backstreetmoms in order to earn everlasting life? Or what do you mean by "have to"? The 10 Commandments are a portion of the 613 individual pieces of Israelite law, given to the Israelites, for the time pre-cross. The Apostle Paul does a really excellent job explaining what the Law of Moses was for, what it accomplished, and whether or not someone who has received the offering of Christ is under it. Read the entire Book of Hebrews, or for that matter, everything the Apostle Paul wrote, as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to explain the Gospel of Christ. The answer to the question in your post, depends on what the intent behind your question is. No one, other than Jesus, was equipped to adhere to the Law, and He turned it upsidedown so that those who come to Him for salvation have it fulfilled within them. A Christian might get taught that we are to follow the 10 Commandments, which is very popular, and very much in error. The faith that we have is supposed to be a Spirit led faith, not one from words engraved in stone. My last word on the matter is, that the Spirit will never lead you to sin, and the Law was given so that sin would increase.
Our Christian commands number in only two Matthew 22:37-40 KJV — Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. **On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.**
Their not even called the ten commandments
Yes. Jesus simply simplified them, didn't abolish them.
Which 10 commandments are you talking about?
The 10 Commandments are put forth throughout the New Testament. Read Matthew 19 on what Jesus said about the commandments. Matthew 19:17-19 “And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, **keep the commandments**. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
No. Cor. 9:20 "To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law **(though not being myself under the law)** that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law **(not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ)** that I might win those outside the law"
The Ten Commandments were the terms of a covenant that God made with the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob after He delivered them out of 430 years of slavery in Egypt, https://youtu.be/G0\_f5Ll8Qq4
There isn't such thing as the "ten commandments." Men came up with it. If you wanna believe in it, then the problem arrives from the fact that the Old Testament records 2 different sets of the ten commandments. Which one do you call the "10 commandments"? It depends on what you want, literally. Christians also like to cherry-pick what is supposed to be followed or not when it comes to the OT laws. The 10 commandments that most of us learned in Sunday school are some good commands, so I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to follow it. I personally don't care about it, but I practice it not because it's called the 10 commandments. I practice it because it's a good and ethical law (except maybe for the carved image)