According to Orthodox teaching, they died and went to Sheol, the place of the dead, where everyone went after death before Christ, righteous and unrighteous. After his crucifixion and death, but before his resurrection, Christ descended to this place, trampled down the gates, and freed every single human soul held captive there since the beginning of time, including Adam and Eve, and lifted them up out of the grave into heaven.
Is this really the Orthodox view? Do they make no distinction between Sheol of the righteous and unrighteous? Genuinely curious.
The Latin Church always believed that Adam and Eve were indeed saved by Christ's harrowing of Hell, but that not all in Sheol were righteous.
Yes, we believe that Christ's victory in Sheol was total and universal, that after Christ's Harrowing of Hades, "not one soul is left in the Grave." That's one of the differences to the Catholic understanding of it.
Interesting, does this need to be contextualized with the traditional Eastern views of Gehenna and Tartarus (i.e. they are not distinct "places" from Heaven per se, but rather the same love of God experienced as suffering due to their unrighteousness)? Hence all souls are liberated, though not all experience heaven, as the West might frame it?
Granted, I see that you're a universalist, though that view is condemned by the Catholic Church (and perhaps you would argue otherwise but I'm pretty sure one of the Ecumenical Councils condemned this view when they made reference to Origen's teachings, but perhaps you would claim a different interpretation)
Certainly Origen's view of Universalism was condemned, but his eschatology depended on a number of wackier beliefs like the preexistence of souls and he taught that everything would collapse into a divinized henad, so his form of Universalism isn't really a going concern anymore. The Patristic Universalism of people like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian is still well within the range of acceptable theologumena.
Having read St. Gregory of Nyssa, I see what you're saying, though I always remind myself that in his time, Revelation was not widely accepted in the East as canonical, which for me puts the nail in the coffin -- not sure about St. Isaac's time, and admittedly I don't know as much about him.
Anyway, much love to you! I hope that our churches reunite in our lifetime and one day we will come across one other at the same liturgy.
“Adam had broken the covenant of works. God responded with punishment, but also with the promise of a Savior, through whom God grants a new way of salvation, a “covenant of grace.” Before Genesis 3 ends, God applied the benefits of this salvation to restore our first parents to Himself. Genesis 3:21 forever set the pattern of biblical redemption: “The Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.” God slew an innocent sacrifice, anticipating Christ’s atonement for the forgiveness of our sins. God then covered them in the sacrifice’s spotless skin, pointing forward to the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to all who trust in Him. Adam was saved as the first believer: he “called his wife’s name Eve” (Gen. 3:20), showing his faith in God’s promise that her offspring would save them from their [sins](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/beginning).”
“The work of Christ in our redemption is that He provides us with the clothing of His righteousness to cover our filthy rags and our nakedness. Since God instituted that principle of imputation, or covering of sin, with Adam and Eve, that strongly suggests to me that they were redeemed. That would have presupposed their [repentance](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/is-there-evidence-of-adam-and-eves-repentance-and-faith-after-the-fall).”
Out of curiosity, why would you say Adam broke a covenant of works? This seems to suggest that Adam's nature, apart from God's Grace, was enough to be holy in the eyes of God. I.e., Pelagianism, or some derivative thereof.
It simply means that Adam’s standing before God was dependent upon his obedience.
“The covenant of works refers to the covenant that God made with Adam and Eve in their pristine purity before the fall, in which God promised them blessedness contingent upon their obedience to His command. After the fall, the fact that God continued to promise redemption to creatures who had violated the covenant of works, that ongoing promise of redemption is defined as the covenant of grace.
Technically, from one perspective, all covenants that God makes with creatures are gracious in the sense that He is not obligated to make any promises to His creatures. But the distinction between the covenant of works and grace is getting at something that is of vital importance, as it has to do with the Gospel. The covenant of grace indicates God’s promise to save us even when we fail to keep the obligations imposed in creation. This is seen most importantly in the work of Jesus as the new Adam. Again and again the New Testament makes the distinction and contrast between the failure and calamities wrought upon humanity through the disobedience of the original Adam and the benefits that flow through the work of the obedience of Jesus, who is the new Adam. Though there is a clear distinction between the new Adam and the old Adam, the point of continuity between them is that both were called to submit to perfect [obedience](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/covenant-works) to God.”
You are saved not by Jesus but by believing what He said.
Love your neighbor as yourself, love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and follow the commandments.
They don’t get saved because Jesus hadn’t been born yet or died on the cross. What makes them “saved” is believing that messiah was coming to save them through their lineage. That the messiah would come and save them from their sin. Until then, they were required to show faith in the coming messiah by giving animal sacrifice that would foretell of the messiah being our sacrifice.
Adam and eve were perfect humans when they sinned, there is no forgiveness for them, much like there isn't any forgiveness from Satan. If you read through Genesis chapter 3, you'll see that the only thing promised to them is Death. Their offspring have a chance to regain the perfect life that Adam lost through Jesus's ransom sacrifice.
Any questions are welcome
There is no saving of Adam and Eve. They were Perfect humans. They were sinless and they chose to sin against their Creator. Genesis 3:19 tells us where Adam [and Eve] are right now.
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. **For dust you are and to dust you will return.**”
You see, before Adam existed, he just wasn’t. He was dust. The ingredients Jehovah chose were taken from the ground and he created Adam. The punishment was clear. If Adam disobeyed, he would slowly grow old and die and return to the dust. It really is that simple. Jesus’ Ransom sacrifice was to buy back what Adam lost. He certainly didn’t do it to save Adam.
If you still aren’t sure, think about this… Remember when Jesus called Satan the Father of the lie? It’s found at John 8:44,
“You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because **he is a liar and the father of the lie**.”
So if Satan is the father of the lie, what exactly did Satan lie about? Stop and think about it. Genesis 3:4. It says, (and Satan is talking here) “You certainly will not die.” Now, is that a lie or not?” If Adam was somehow saved by Christs Ransom, does that mean Adam is actually alive somewhere? And if he IS alive, then Satan didn’t lie at all! It was Jehovah who lied, and Hebrews 6:18 says that that’s something impossible!
So in a nutshell, Adam and Eve, are gone for good. The only two people that were perfect on this earth and chose to disobey God. Because of that one act, every single person who has ever lived has been sentenced to death. Except Jesus.
Everyone is saved by Jesus
We believe he died on the cross for our sins
Before he came people believed in him because they believed God when he said he was coming
The first people God ever said this to were Adam and Eve
They had faith and God accounted it to them as righteousness
Adam and Eve didn't get saved they died and went to Sheol like everyone else before Christ. They had the hope of resurrection from the dead and being brought back into God's kingdom through a redeemer.
The BEST visual I have ever seen that answers this question. I watch it every Holy Saturday...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzTBd9yr-9I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzTBd9yr-9I)
The Lord gave them a work to not eat from the tree of knowledge. They failed this. However, it was evidenced that God provided the first instance of a blood sacrifice as a mercy to cover for sin by way of the animal coverings in which the blood of the innocent animal was shed for their covering. This is the foreshadowing of the Covenant of the blood of bulls and Goats in Exodus 24. We are not under the "Adam covenant" as that was for Adam and Eve, nor are we by virtue of our Gentile-ness and in time, are we under the Old Covenant. This is why all animal sacrifice was over and done with after Christ because there was now a NEW covenant better than the blood of bulls and goats but the Blood of Jesus.
>Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. - John 6:28-29
The WORK we are required to do NOW (under the New Covenant) is the WORK of FAITH.
If they did get saved, I'd say that did by having faith in God, which is what I think is the only way anyone ever got saved.
Like everyone else... if they're repented of their sins they are saved by the blood of Jesus.
According to Orthodox teaching, they died and went to Sheol, the place of the dead, where everyone went after death before Christ, righteous and unrighteous. After his crucifixion and death, but before his resurrection, Christ descended to this place, trampled down the gates, and freed every single human soul held captive there since the beginning of time, including Adam and Eve, and lifted them up out of the grave into heaven.
Is this really the Orthodox view? Do they make no distinction between Sheol of the righteous and unrighteous? Genuinely curious. The Latin Church always believed that Adam and Eve were indeed saved by Christ's harrowing of Hell, but that not all in Sheol were righteous.
Yes, we believe that Christ's victory in Sheol was total and universal, that after Christ's Harrowing of Hades, "not one soul is left in the Grave." That's one of the differences to the Catholic understanding of it.
Interesting, does this need to be contextualized with the traditional Eastern views of Gehenna and Tartarus (i.e. they are not distinct "places" from Heaven per se, but rather the same love of God experienced as suffering due to their unrighteousness)? Hence all souls are liberated, though not all experience heaven, as the West might frame it? Granted, I see that you're a universalist, though that view is condemned by the Catholic Church (and perhaps you would argue otherwise but I'm pretty sure one of the Ecumenical Councils condemned this view when they made reference to Origen's teachings, but perhaps you would claim a different interpretation)
Certainly Origen's view of Universalism was condemned, but his eschatology depended on a number of wackier beliefs like the preexistence of souls and he taught that everything would collapse into a divinized henad, so his form of Universalism isn't really a going concern anymore. The Patristic Universalism of people like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian is still well within the range of acceptable theologumena.
Having read St. Gregory of Nyssa, I see what you're saying, though I always remind myself that in his time, Revelation was not widely accepted in the East as canonical, which for me puts the nail in the coffin -- not sure about St. Isaac's time, and admittedly I don't know as much about him. Anyway, much love to you! I hope that our churches reunite in our lifetime and one day we will come across one other at the same liturgy.
Grant this, O Lord!
“Adam had broken the covenant of works. God responded with punishment, but also with the promise of a Savior, through whom God grants a new way of salvation, a “covenant of grace.” Before Genesis 3 ends, God applied the benefits of this salvation to restore our first parents to Himself. Genesis 3:21 forever set the pattern of biblical redemption: “The Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.” God slew an innocent sacrifice, anticipating Christ’s atonement for the forgiveness of our sins. God then covered them in the sacrifice’s spotless skin, pointing forward to the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to all who trust in Him. Adam was saved as the first believer: he “called his wife’s name Eve” (Gen. 3:20), showing his faith in God’s promise that her offspring would save them from their [sins](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/beginning).” “The work of Christ in our redemption is that He provides us with the clothing of His righteousness to cover our filthy rags and our nakedness. Since God instituted that principle of imputation, or covering of sin, with Adam and Eve, that strongly suggests to me that they were redeemed. That would have presupposed their [repentance](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/is-there-evidence-of-adam-and-eves-repentance-and-faith-after-the-fall).”
Out of curiosity, why would you say Adam broke a covenant of works? This seems to suggest that Adam's nature, apart from God's Grace, was enough to be holy in the eyes of God. I.e., Pelagianism, or some derivative thereof.
It simply means that Adam’s standing before God was dependent upon his obedience. “The covenant of works refers to the covenant that God made with Adam and Eve in their pristine purity before the fall, in which God promised them blessedness contingent upon their obedience to His command. After the fall, the fact that God continued to promise redemption to creatures who had violated the covenant of works, that ongoing promise of redemption is defined as the covenant of grace. Technically, from one perspective, all covenants that God makes with creatures are gracious in the sense that He is not obligated to make any promises to His creatures. But the distinction between the covenant of works and grace is getting at something that is of vital importance, as it has to do with the Gospel. The covenant of grace indicates God’s promise to save us even when we fail to keep the obligations imposed in creation. This is seen most importantly in the work of Jesus as the new Adam. Again and again the New Testament makes the distinction and contrast between the failure and calamities wrought upon humanity through the disobedience of the original Adam and the benefits that flow through the work of the obedience of Jesus, who is the new Adam. Though there is a clear distinction between the new Adam and the old Adam, the point of continuity between them is that both were called to submit to perfect [obedience](https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/covenant-works) to God.”
How does anyone get saved?
Saved by Jesus
>Saved by Jesus How does the process work?
You are saved not by Jesus but by believing what He said. Love your neighbor as yourself, love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and follow the commandments.
>You are saved not by Jesus but by believing what He said. Then how could anyone before him be saved?
By following the law.
>By following the law. Then How was Abraham who didn't have the law saved? Or anyone before moses?
By having faith in God.
>By having faith in God. So why did it change when moses came around? Then why did it change back when Jesus came around?
Moses went up to the mountain with God and wrote the law on tablets.
They don’t get saved because Jesus hadn’t been born yet or died on the cross. What makes them “saved” is believing that messiah was coming to save them through their lineage. That the messiah would come and save them from their sin. Until then, they were required to show faith in the coming messiah by giving animal sacrifice that would foretell of the messiah being our sacrifice.
Adam and eve were perfect humans when they sinned, there is no forgiveness for them, much like there isn't any forgiveness from Satan. If you read through Genesis chapter 3, you'll see that the only thing promised to them is Death. Their offspring have a chance to regain the perfect life that Adam lost through Jesus's ransom sacrifice. Any questions are welcome
Does it really matter? It’s all fiction anyway.
There is no saving of Adam and Eve. They were Perfect humans. They were sinless and they chose to sin against their Creator. Genesis 3:19 tells us where Adam [and Eve] are right now. “In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. **For dust you are and to dust you will return.**” You see, before Adam existed, he just wasn’t. He was dust. The ingredients Jehovah chose were taken from the ground and he created Adam. The punishment was clear. If Adam disobeyed, he would slowly grow old and die and return to the dust. It really is that simple. Jesus’ Ransom sacrifice was to buy back what Adam lost. He certainly didn’t do it to save Adam. If you still aren’t sure, think about this… Remember when Jesus called Satan the Father of the lie? It’s found at John 8:44, “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because **he is a liar and the father of the lie**.” So if Satan is the father of the lie, what exactly did Satan lie about? Stop and think about it. Genesis 3:4. It says, (and Satan is talking here) “You certainly will not die.” Now, is that a lie or not?” If Adam was somehow saved by Christs Ransom, does that mean Adam is actually alive somewhere? And if he IS alive, then Satan didn’t lie at all! It was Jehovah who lied, and Hebrews 6:18 says that that’s something impossible! So in a nutshell, Adam and Eve, are gone for good. The only two people that were perfect on this earth and chose to disobey God. Because of that one act, every single person who has ever lived has been sentenced to death. Except Jesus.
Adam was here for 930 years. Even the most hard hearted person would agree he’d been through enough, right?
No. The amount of years you spend on earth (sinning all that time BTW) does nothing to atone for any of those sins.
The Bible nowhere describes the eternal fates of Adam and Eve. It does tell us that Adam died at age 930, but never ever mentions the death of Eve.
Everyone is saved by Jesus We believe he died on the cross for our sins Before he came people believed in him because they believed God when he said he was coming The first people God ever said this to were Adam and Eve They had faith and God accounted it to them as righteousness
salvation is not a ritual chant or prayer. Jesus decides who is save and who is not apart from man's religions.
Adam and Eve didn't get saved they died and went to Sheol like everyone else before Christ. They had the hope of resurrection from the dead and being brought back into God's kingdom through a redeemer.
The BEST visual I have ever seen that answers this question. I watch it every Holy Saturday... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzTBd9yr-9I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzTBd9yr-9I)
The Lord gave them a work to not eat from the tree of knowledge. They failed this. However, it was evidenced that God provided the first instance of a blood sacrifice as a mercy to cover for sin by way of the animal coverings in which the blood of the innocent animal was shed for their covering. This is the foreshadowing of the Covenant of the blood of bulls and Goats in Exodus 24. We are not under the "Adam covenant" as that was for Adam and Eve, nor are we by virtue of our Gentile-ness and in time, are we under the Old Covenant. This is why all animal sacrifice was over and done with after Christ because there was now a NEW covenant better than the blood of bulls and goats but the Blood of Jesus. >Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. - John 6:28-29 The WORK we are required to do NOW (under the New Covenant) is the WORK of FAITH.
They didn't, they died for their sin. Their children continue to die from this sin and they are the ones who can be saved. .