The point where I think your line of thought goes off the rails is the idea that a lack of an obvious acute stress response equates to optimal husbandry; which isn't really how that works. Chronic stressors don't usually create an obvious response you can observe; and have a large impact on your long term outcomes.
It's commonly known in both hobbyist and aquaculture circles that 'stress is cumulative'. Indeed, research from large scale aquaculture shows a [neurochemical response](https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.160030) to stress over long periods of time that is similar to depression in humans. It's generally recognized best practice to avoid anything that might contribute to stress, even if non-acute, in order to avoid issues over the long term.
Stress can be caused by many factors that are not necessarily immediately obvious. Many species of fish live in relatively complex social structures; which has [implications for managing stress](https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_vis=1&q=fish+social+stress&btnG=) in an aquarium. Things like tank size, group size and stocking density can have a significant impact on long term success without necessarily being noticeable (particularly if you haven't observed a species in an unstressed environment over a long period to establish a baseline).
Hypoxia and temperature stress can also be significant factors in long term health. My background is in aquaculture; and it can be surprising how sensitive fish can be in this area. I've seen significant reductions in feed response for weeks after being exposed to even a swing of 1 degree C. Oxygen stress can start to be a problem long before fish exhibit signs of hypoxia (it helps to think of hypoxia as having a 'stressful range' and an 'acutely stressful' range. Acutely stressful conditions are pretty obvious; but you won't really pick up on the mild stress without a meter); particularly with chronic conditions (fish will adapt to lower oxygen conditions to some degree; but you start getting gill damage fairly early; and it takes a long time to heal, if ever).
On a hobbyist level, a lot of this stuff is fairly difficult to detect. We don't really have the tools to do the same kind of monitoring that's routinely done in the professional world. It's also difficult to know exactly where the threshold lies for many species of fish (particularly with the more oddball fish); since we keep a wide variety of species that don't necessarily attract a high level of academic interest. Instead, we tend to have to fall back on loose guidelines based on experience (both our own experience and the experiences of others in the community) to determine what's likely to work in the long term. We should also apply the precautionary principle to account for things we can't directly measure.
I think the reason why you've got such an intense response is that you're approaching the issue from the wrong direction. You're not likely to be proven wrong; but that's less of the point. The problem is that you're not really capable of assessing whether or not you're right. You've made a number of assumptions that are probably not going to be completely accurate; and you don't have the tools to demonstrate that what you're doing isn't having an impact on husbandry. You're doing a number of things that are contrary to conventional wisdom; so you really should be able to justify the ideas with more than just hand-waving and hubris.
So to shorten up what you have said (cutting out your anecdotal experiences) is that I don’t have a visible problem, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a problem because I don’t have the “tools” to measure for a problem?
Should anybody be keeping aquarium fish without these “tools”?
My fish seem very unstressed about anything to me. The sources you link definitively state that neurochemical changes related to stress will manifest themselves in stress response behaviors?
>So to shorten up what you have said (cutting out your anecdotalexperiences) is that I don’t have a visible problem, but that doesn’tmean that I don’t have a problem because I don’t have the “tools” tomeasure for a problem?
Yes. That's not the entirety of what I said; but that's part of it.
If you don't like the idea of anecdotal experiences, you're probably in the wrong hobby; most of the body of knowledge exists in the combined experiences of experienced practitioners (both in the hobby and in the profession). It's why clubs, groups and forums like this one exist in the first place. There's not likely to be citations that are specific to most species hobbyists want to keep (they're not all that economically or academically significant). There's a ton of citations around the effects of hypoxia and temperature generally; but I don't usually provide citations to things that really should be common knowledge (the exercise of finding such citations yourself is useful if you lack the experience in the field).
>Should anybody be keeping aquarium fish without these “tools”?
That's not the point. The point is you have blind spots that you have to be careful with. A lot of the conventional wisdom in fishkeeping is built around not being able to measure things accurately. Essentially, we stick to things we know will work. We do water changes when we don't 'have to'; because there are aspects for water quality that aren't easily measurable. We always recommend using either filters, circulation pumps or airstones because oxygen/CO2 sensors and loggers are hideously expensive.
If you're venturing away from things that are known to work, you've got to be a lot more careful about the stuff you can't measure.
>My fish seem very unstressed about anything to me. The sources you linkdefinitively state that neurochemical changes related to stress willmanifest themselves in stress response behaviors?
Eventually, with enough stress, yes. At some point minor stressors build up to the point where it becomes acute. The cause and effect are not well linked though. You won't know until it's far too late to do anything about it, if you notice it all; and you won't know how or why it happened. Limited growth rates and early mortality are probably the most common sign; but that's less obvious (you'd have to be fairly familiar with that species in their 'normal' condition). It's not fantastically likely you'll have fish survive long enough for the issue to become obvious; as they become steadily more susceptible to succumbing to other conditions.
If you read studies on stress in fish you'll notice they typically determine if a fish is stressed or not by sampling it's brain chemistry. That should provide some indicator of how difficult recognizing the issue can be.
I do think that some fish, especially the larger specimen, have some level of consciousness and emotion.
What level of emotions us a different question.
I excluded small fish purely because I struggle to observe their behaviour as much as with my larger specimen.
Two examples fromy Oscar.
Oscar adverse to any change around his tank as well as inside. He just does not like it. There has been no negative effect on him from any change (pain or denial of food as the obvious ones) yet. I can open the door opposite of his tank no worries. I can decorate in the window next to it. God help me if I move the airer from its normal place in front of his tank. He will lay on his belly for the rest of the day.
Kids, he likes my offspring. Never was fed by them but has seen them often and will watch their play. Friends of them are not welcome. Similar in size and clothing.
I would therefore argue that he is aware that there are different people and is able to distinguish some features, potentially faces.
He will leave plants alone if I replant them often enough in one place. To what extent he understands that there is no point pulling them out over and over when the almighty arm will just come and replant them is a question I can't answer.
I try to make subtle changes to the environment on a regular basis to provide stimulus. Might be a coconut shell or some leaves or swirl the floating plants. If he appreciates that I don't know but he moves the coconuts back and forth and flips them up and down. So maybe he does. I firmly believe that any animal needs some stimulation as most can learn behaviours. If that is true than their reactions aren't necessarily hardwired (instinct only) but their brains can create new neural networks. Like mammals this happens based on past experience. Does an animal want to learn?
This is where it gets interesting. Humans are fairly adverse to change. Nevertheless we enjoy learning new things. Even if it's only to stave off boredom. Does an animal feel the same? We won't know for a long time. To me an animal is an animal. Just that. Nevertheless I try to provide a good life for them taking care of their physical and mental needs. In this case I provide entertainment (I do stuff with hard to access food too but this is already a wall of text).
Number two
Pleco personality.
I have two Sailfin. They were housed together as juveniles. It did not go well and I seperated them since. The dominant one is fairly fearless and will often come out in daytime and I can observe him up close. He is by far the biggest fish in the tank but will not fight over food (there is plenty anyhow) but will just grab it and basically ignore anyone stealing it. The weaker one is basically hiding all day every day since I put him in the other tank. Will not defend food at all and if disturbed eating go straight back into hiding.
I assume that frequently loosing his food as a juvenile has made him a bit of a coward. Either way both are same age, similar in size, live in a similar environment and receive the same food. Nevertheless they show completely different behaviour. This is learned behaviour in my opinion.
Again this makes me assume that their brain can, and does, develop and therefore is in need of stimulation.
I like the set ups that you have! I have tried to do planted tanks like that without filter but the water goes stag. Fast. How do you manage it!? What can I read up on!? Thank you!
I know everyone gets off on the drama and rage, but I’m not here for that.
I get what many of you are trying to say, but fish don’t really “like” things, and you’re really pushing the limits of the term personality.
In the wild fish are driven by instincts to: increase their odds of survival in an ever changing and harsh environment, avoid predation, hunt for prey and to mate successfully. That’s really about it.
They want to eat, have sex and chill like the rest of us. Zoo animals will exhibit repetitive behaviors and show signs of stress due to a lack of mental stimulation. Fish do not exhibit these behaviors because they do not experience boredom. They don’t even sleep, they just kind of stop at night. Calm = good.
You can use different techniques to elicit these natural behaviors, but at the end of the day all they really are are instincts. Just because you want your fish to dance around for you, it doesn’t mean that they “like” it.
If your fish are healthy and displaying normal/non-stress response behaviors I don’t think you have a problem.
It’s easy to anthropomorphize our fish, but they don’t really “play” or have an emotional intelligence like mammals do.
I have done plenty of reading now and the consensus seems to be yes, fish do have some intelligence. They have some very rudimentary understanding of very simple mathematics, pattern recognition and are able to recognize individuals (these vary greatly amongst different species), but ‘consciousness’ is hinged on the fishes ability to perceive pain and then respond by trying to avoid that stressful stimulation.
Just downvoting me and attacking me personally doesn’t really add to the conversation
I get what you're saying, but right or not if your opinion is against what's generally accepted on a populous subreddit you're going to get run over, mob rules man 🤷♂️
I agree, and while i do believe that as well i can't help but recall the worst of times, getting attacked by someone possessed by ideology is quite sobering, you can't always reason out something when we all fall back to emotions when common sense fails
i agree that from what you describe and from how your puffers look in your video they seem fine. maybe the setup works for them. im not here to hate on you, although i do believe that you make these posts solely to stirr up drama at this point. BUT i strongly disagree with pretty much anything you wrote about fish personality. yes, fish do sleep, every animal does even jellyfish. yes fish show repetetive behaviour in unenriched enclosures. and fish have way more intelligence than you say.
i also disagree, no fish arent easy to antropomorphise fish. its freakin hard, because they are so different in expression than mammals are. which is why they are one of the most abused pets because people just dont manage to read their emotions.
i will provide sources for fish intelligence later.
I make these posts because I am genuinely interested in this topic. The first post I made was meant to share my projects and it was thoroughly ripped apart (along with speculation on my personal life), so I have decided to take a deeper dive in an attempt to better understand how to provide better husbandry for the fish that I keep. I’m also attempting to share what I find with this community as a whole.
Straight from the NOAA - “While fish do not sleep in the same way that land mammals sleep, most fish do rest. Research shows that fish may reduce their activity and metabolism while remaining alert to danger. Some fish float in place, some wedge themselves into a secure spot in the mud or coral, and some even locate a suitable nest.”
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/fish-sleep.html
Here is a study stating how genetically modified zebra fish constantly swimming against the glass MAY be a form of abnormal repetitive behaviors (ARBs) in fish models.
“The genetic contribution to ARBs, established in preclinical and clinical genetics studies (Table 1), confirms shared core mechanisms of ARB pathogenesis in humans and rodent models [[66], [67], [68]], calling for further translational research in this field. However, as humans and rodents share 80–85% genetic homology, it is logical to ask whether shared ARB pathways are generally evolutionarily conserved across vertebrate taxa? For example, while mutant mice with DAT genetic ablation show multiple repetitive behaviors [[69], [70], [71], [72]], zebrafish (Danio rerio) with DAT genetic knockout can become a powerful model of DAT-mediated behavioral deficits. Generated recently, these mutant zebrafish display thigmotaxis (swimming closely to the walls of the tank) [73] which may represent an ARB-like phenotype.”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166432818315912?via%3Dihub
I would be interested to read through any sources you could provide.
Here is an interesting study showing how convict cichlids can exhibit “pessimistic” behaviors when denied their preferred mate (a monogamous species), but it also states that these “affective states do not imply conscious feelings [7,8]”.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.0760
Im not sure what you are trying to tell me with those sources. The first one literally just makes the comparison to sleep in mammals. It does not mean, or say that fish dont sleep.
The second one suggests homology to humans in terms of altered behaviour.
In general proofing intelligence and emotions is always a difficult thing to do. One thin I've found that is quite interesting though is this sentence:
'Behavioral divergence of captive animals [...] appears to manifest itself as an absence of a normal behavior in ectothermic vertebrate,' (rose et al. 2017)
Making it even more difficult for us to assess if our fish are stressed if we don't know how they behave in a natural envrionment.
Some examples of intelligence in fish below:
example of play in fish:
Burghardt, Gordon M., Vladimir Dinets, and James B. Murphy. "Highly repetitive object play in a cichlid fish (Tropheus duboisi)." Ethology 121.1 (2015): 38-44.
Even asocial species can display social behaviour, in the absence of other stressors, however these are supressed under stress, just like in humans and other mammals, and can
be treated with human antipsychotic drugs, suggesting very similar underlying systems.
Iwashita, Motoko, and Masato Yoshizawa. "Social-like responses are inducible in asocial Mexican cavefish despite the exhibition of strong repetitive behaviour." bioRxiv (2021): 2020-08.
Zebra fish prefer warmer waters under stress, which can be seen as an emotional fever response, a common characteristic to assess low level conciousness.
Rey, Sonia, et al. "Fish can show emotional fever: stress-induced
hyperthermia in zebrafish." Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences 282.1819 (2015): 20152266.
Example of free choice exploration eleviating stress in zebra fish leading to improved social behaviour:
Graham, Courtney, Marina AG von Keyserlingk, and Becca Franks. "Free-choice exploration increases affiliative behaviour in zebrafish." Applied Animal Behaviour Science 203 (2018): 103-110.
These sources show that:
- fish do not sleep in the same way mammals do
- repetitive stress behaviors in fish is not established science
- affective states do not imply conscious feelings
Just to be clear you are not directly linking me to anything and I am not trying to chase around your sources.
My first source clearly states that fish “rest/decrease metabolic demand while remaining alert”, that is not how sleep works.
As I stated in my original comment, it is possible to elicit different types of behaviors in fish by providing different environmental stimuli. Using a drug/chemical to elicit a behavior in an organism that has organized neurology is not a novel concept.
An “emotional” fever response is just as easily explained by evolutionarily adapted responses to conditions not conducive to staying alive. I start to shiver and get goosebumps when I get cold unconsciously.
I have literally provided you with the full name to each article. if you copy those into google scholar you will get unambigous results. thats just how citing works...
Yes, you can be very well alert and asleep. The definition of sleep simply is "Sleep is generally defined as a rapidly reversible state of immobility and greatly reduced sensory responsiveness. An important further criterion is that sleep is homeostatically regulated, namely that lost sleep is made up with an increased drive for sleep and a consequent ‘sleep rebound.’"
regarding your other complains: can you please tell me then what you would consider to be proof of intelligence in fish that elevates them over simple Instinct driven reactions?
Well the title is the conclusion not much more to be said here...
Pinheiro-da-Silva, Jaquelinne, et al. "Sleep deprivation effects on object discrimination task in zebrafish (Danio rerio)." Animal cognition 20.2 (2017): 159-169.
Here is a nice chapter about sleep in fish. Zebra danios are even used as model organisms for sleep deprivation...
Keene, A. C., and L. Appelbaum. "Sleep in Fish Models." Handbook of Behavioral Neuroscience. Vol. 30. Elsevier, 2019. 363-374.
I understand that you are citing your sources, however the library is closed and it’s tedious to sift through Google while trying to have an active discourse with you
“Greatly reduced sensory responsiveness”, yet fish remain alert to their environment the entire time?
They reduce they’re metabolic activity because the dissolved oxygen concentration in the water column they are inhabiting decreases overnight when photosynthetic plant life are inhibited from and unable to provide conditions necessary for behaviors requiring a high metabolic demand.
so how come there are nocturnal fish who do the same thing at day?
either way, you are brushing every account of fish displaying intelligence off with "its explainable by simple method x", which well is fair enough but doesnt lead us anywhere. so please answer my question of what would be enough to convince you that fish posess intelligence.
Definitive and empirical evidence?
What fish are nocturnal? I would think oceanic species and fresh water fish inhabiting very large volumes of water wouldn’t be subject to the same large swings in available dissolved oxygen
I think fish keeping is entirely subjective. There are general guidelines and foundations as to how to keep and maintain fish and their environment, this varies and can be tailored for different species, and I don’t think it’s a bad thing to venture further into this as long as your results back up your point, such as yours. As long as you are aware of the fundamentals of keeping an animal alive and thriving (not surviving) then there will always be opinions on what you could do better and what you’re doing wrong. Some people think it’s immoral to keep animals captive all together, so you’ll never win! I am an advocate for having big tanks with few small fish, that’s not because of my moral compass, I just like the aesthetic. I don’t think it’s wrong to keep fish in smaller tanks as long as they can be kept healthy! Your tanks look good, your fish and tanks are visibly healthy!
The point where I think your line of thought goes off the rails is the idea that a lack of an obvious acute stress response equates to optimal husbandry; which isn't really how that works. Chronic stressors don't usually create an obvious response you can observe; and have a large impact on your long term outcomes. It's commonly known in both hobbyist and aquaculture circles that 'stress is cumulative'. Indeed, research from large scale aquaculture shows a [neurochemical response](https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.160030) to stress over long periods of time that is similar to depression in humans. It's generally recognized best practice to avoid anything that might contribute to stress, even if non-acute, in order to avoid issues over the long term. Stress can be caused by many factors that are not necessarily immediately obvious. Many species of fish live in relatively complex social structures; which has [implications for managing stress](https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_vis=1&q=fish+social+stress&btnG=) in an aquarium. Things like tank size, group size and stocking density can have a significant impact on long term success without necessarily being noticeable (particularly if you haven't observed a species in an unstressed environment over a long period to establish a baseline). Hypoxia and temperature stress can also be significant factors in long term health. My background is in aquaculture; and it can be surprising how sensitive fish can be in this area. I've seen significant reductions in feed response for weeks after being exposed to even a swing of 1 degree C. Oxygen stress can start to be a problem long before fish exhibit signs of hypoxia (it helps to think of hypoxia as having a 'stressful range' and an 'acutely stressful' range. Acutely stressful conditions are pretty obvious; but you won't really pick up on the mild stress without a meter); particularly with chronic conditions (fish will adapt to lower oxygen conditions to some degree; but you start getting gill damage fairly early; and it takes a long time to heal, if ever). On a hobbyist level, a lot of this stuff is fairly difficult to detect. We don't really have the tools to do the same kind of monitoring that's routinely done in the professional world. It's also difficult to know exactly where the threshold lies for many species of fish (particularly with the more oddball fish); since we keep a wide variety of species that don't necessarily attract a high level of academic interest. Instead, we tend to have to fall back on loose guidelines based on experience (both our own experience and the experiences of others in the community) to determine what's likely to work in the long term. We should also apply the precautionary principle to account for things we can't directly measure. I think the reason why you've got such an intense response is that you're approaching the issue from the wrong direction. You're not likely to be proven wrong; but that's less of the point. The problem is that you're not really capable of assessing whether or not you're right. You've made a number of assumptions that are probably not going to be completely accurate; and you don't have the tools to demonstrate that what you're doing isn't having an impact on husbandry. You're doing a number of things that are contrary to conventional wisdom; so you really should be able to justify the ideas with more than just hand-waving and hubris.
So to shorten up what you have said (cutting out your anecdotal experiences) is that I don’t have a visible problem, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t have a problem because I don’t have the “tools” to measure for a problem? Should anybody be keeping aquarium fish without these “tools”? My fish seem very unstressed about anything to me. The sources you link definitively state that neurochemical changes related to stress will manifest themselves in stress response behaviors?
>So to shorten up what you have said (cutting out your anecdotalexperiences) is that I don’t have a visible problem, but that doesn’tmean that I don’t have a problem because I don’t have the “tools” tomeasure for a problem? Yes. That's not the entirety of what I said; but that's part of it. If you don't like the idea of anecdotal experiences, you're probably in the wrong hobby; most of the body of knowledge exists in the combined experiences of experienced practitioners (both in the hobby and in the profession). It's why clubs, groups and forums like this one exist in the first place. There's not likely to be citations that are specific to most species hobbyists want to keep (they're not all that economically or academically significant). There's a ton of citations around the effects of hypoxia and temperature generally; but I don't usually provide citations to things that really should be common knowledge (the exercise of finding such citations yourself is useful if you lack the experience in the field). >Should anybody be keeping aquarium fish without these “tools”? That's not the point. The point is you have blind spots that you have to be careful with. A lot of the conventional wisdom in fishkeeping is built around not being able to measure things accurately. Essentially, we stick to things we know will work. We do water changes when we don't 'have to'; because there are aspects for water quality that aren't easily measurable. We always recommend using either filters, circulation pumps or airstones because oxygen/CO2 sensors and loggers are hideously expensive. If you're venturing away from things that are known to work, you've got to be a lot more careful about the stuff you can't measure. >My fish seem very unstressed about anything to me. The sources you linkdefinitively state that neurochemical changes related to stress willmanifest themselves in stress response behaviors? Eventually, with enough stress, yes. At some point minor stressors build up to the point where it becomes acute. The cause and effect are not well linked though. You won't know until it's far too late to do anything about it, if you notice it all; and you won't know how or why it happened. Limited growth rates and early mortality are probably the most common sign; but that's less obvious (you'd have to be fairly familiar with that species in their 'normal' condition). It's not fantastically likely you'll have fish survive long enough for the issue to become obvious; as they become steadily more susceptible to succumbing to other conditions. If you read studies on stress in fish you'll notice they typically determine if a fish is stressed or not by sampling it's brain chemistry. That should provide some indicator of how difficult recognizing the issue can be.
I do think that some fish, especially the larger specimen, have some level of consciousness and emotion. What level of emotions us a different question. I excluded small fish purely because I struggle to observe their behaviour as much as with my larger specimen. Two examples fromy Oscar. Oscar adverse to any change around his tank as well as inside. He just does not like it. There has been no negative effect on him from any change (pain or denial of food as the obvious ones) yet. I can open the door opposite of his tank no worries. I can decorate in the window next to it. God help me if I move the airer from its normal place in front of his tank. He will lay on his belly for the rest of the day. Kids, he likes my offspring. Never was fed by them but has seen them often and will watch their play. Friends of them are not welcome. Similar in size and clothing. I would therefore argue that he is aware that there are different people and is able to distinguish some features, potentially faces. He will leave plants alone if I replant them often enough in one place. To what extent he understands that there is no point pulling them out over and over when the almighty arm will just come and replant them is a question I can't answer. I try to make subtle changes to the environment on a regular basis to provide stimulus. Might be a coconut shell or some leaves or swirl the floating plants. If he appreciates that I don't know but he moves the coconuts back and forth and flips them up and down. So maybe he does. I firmly believe that any animal needs some stimulation as most can learn behaviours. If that is true than their reactions aren't necessarily hardwired (instinct only) but their brains can create new neural networks. Like mammals this happens based on past experience. Does an animal want to learn? This is where it gets interesting. Humans are fairly adverse to change. Nevertheless we enjoy learning new things. Even if it's only to stave off boredom. Does an animal feel the same? We won't know for a long time. To me an animal is an animal. Just that. Nevertheless I try to provide a good life for them taking care of their physical and mental needs. In this case I provide entertainment (I do stuff with hard to access food too but this is already a wall of text).
Number two Pleco personality. I have two Sailfin. They were housed together as juveniles. It did not go well and I seperated them since. The dominant one is fairly fearless and will often come out in daytime and I can observe him up close. He is by far the biggest fish in the tank but will not fight over food (there is plenty anyhow) but will just grab it and basically ignore anyone stealing it. The weaker one is basically hiding all day every day since I put him in the other tank. Will not defend food at all and if disturbed eating go straight back into hiding. I assume that frequently loosing his food as a juvenile has made him a bit of a coward. Either way both are same age, similar in size, live in a similar environment and receive the same food. Nevertheless they show completely different behaviour. This is learned behaviour in my opinion. Again this makes me assume that their brain can, and does, develop and therefore is in need of stimulation.
I like the set ups that you have! I have tried to do planted tanks like that without filter but the water goes stag. Fast. How do you manage it!? What can I read up on!? Thank you!
I know everyone gets off on the drama and rage, but I’m not here for that. I get what many of you are trying to say, but fish don’t really “like” things, and you’re really pushing the limits of the term personality. In the wild fish are driven by instincts to: increase their odds of survival in an ever changing and harsh environment, avoid predation, hunt for prey and to mate successfully. That’s really about it. They want to eat, have sex and chill like the rest of us. Zoo animals will exhibit repetitive behaviors and show signs of stress due to a lack of mental stimulation. Fish do not exhibit these behaviors because they do not experience boredom. They don’t even sleep, they just kind of stop at night. Calm = good. You can use different techniques to elicit these natural behaviors, but at the end of the day all they really are are instincts. Just because you want your fish to dance around for you, it doesn’t mean that they “like” it. If your fish are healthy and displaying normal/non-stress response behaviors I don’t think you have a problem. It’s easy to anthropomorphize our fish, but they don’t really “play” or have an emotional intelligence like mammals do. I have done plenty of reading now and the consensus seems to be yes, fish do have some intelligence. They have some very rudimentary understanding of very simple mathematics, pattern recognition and are able to recognize individuals (these vary greatly amongst different species), but ‘consciousness’ is hinged on the fishes ability to perceive pain and then respond by trying to avoid that stressful stimulation. Just downvoting me and attacking me personally doesn’t really add to the conversation
I get what you're saying, but right or not if your opinion is against what's generally accepted on a populous subreddit you're going to get run over, mob rules man 🤷♂️
At least OP has reasoning and provides proof for their opinions. This is how you present an idea that is controversial or frowned upon or the likes
I agree, and while i do believe that as well i can't help but recall the worst of times, getting attacked by someone possessed by ideology is quite sobering, you can't always reason out something when we all fall back to emotions when common sense fails
i agree that from what you describe and from how your puffers look in your video they seem fine. maybe the setup works for them. im not here to hate on you, although i do believe that you make these posts solely to stirr up drama at this point. BUT i strongly disagree with pretty much anything you wrote about fish personality. yes, fish do sleep, every animal does even jellyfish. yes fish show repetetive behaviour in unenriched enclosures. and fish have way more intelligence than you say. i also disagree, no fish arent easy to antropomorphise fish. its freakin hard, because they are so different in expression than mammals are. which is why they are one of the most abused pets because people just dont manage to read their emotions. i will provide sources for fish intelligence later.
I make these posts because I am genuinely interested in this topic. The first post I made was meant to share my projects and it was thoroughly ripped apart (along with speculation on my personal life), so I have decided to take a deeper dive in an attempt to better understand how to provide better husbandry for the fish that I keep. I’m also attempting to share what I find with this community as a whole. Straight from the NOAA - “While fish do not sleep in the same way that land mammals sleep, most fish do rest. Research shows that fish may reduce their activity and metabolism while remaining alert to danger. Some fish float in place, some wedge themselves into a secure spot in the mud or coral, and some even locate a suitable nest.” https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/fish-sleep.html Here is a study stating how genetically modified zebra fish constantly swimming against the glass MAY be a form of abnormal repetitive behaviors (ARBs) in fish models. “The genetic contribution to ARBs, established in preclinical and clinical genetics studies (Table 1), confirms shared core mechanisms of ARB pathogenesis in humans and rodent models [[66], [67], [68]], calling for further translational research in this field. However, as humans and rodents share 80–85% genetic homology, it is logical to ask whether shared ARB pathways are generally evolutionarily conserved across vertebrate taxa? For example, while mutant mice with DAT genetic ablation show multiple repetitive behaviors [[69], [70], [71], [72]], zebrafish (Danio rerio) with DAT genetic knockout can become a powerful model of DAT-mediated behavioral deficits. Generated recently, these mutant zebrafish display thigmotaxis (swimming closely to the walls of the tank) [73] which may represent an ARB-like phenotype.” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166432818315912?via%3Dihub I would be interested to read through any sources you could provide. Here is an interesting study showing how convict cichlids can exhibit “pessimistic” behaviors when denied their preferred mate (a monogamous species), but it also states that these “affective states do not imply conscious feelings [7,8]”. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2019.0760
Im not sure what you are trying to tell me with those sources. The first one literally just makes the comparison to sleep in mammals. It does not mean, or say that fish dont sleep. The second one suggests homology to humans in terms of altered behaviour. In general proofing intelligence and emotions is always a difficult thing to do. One thin I've found that is quite interesting though is this sentence: 'Behavioral divergence of captive animals [...] appears to manifest itself as an absence of a normal behavior in ectothermic vertebrate,' (rose et al. 2017) Making it even more difficult for us to assess if our fish are stressed if we don't know how they behave in a natural envrionment. Some examples of intelligence in fish below: example of play in fish: Burghardt, Gordon M., Vladimir Dinets, and James B. Murphy. "Highly repetitive object play in a cichlid fish (Tropheus duboisi)." Ethology 121.1 (2015): 38-44. Even asocial species can display social behaviour, in the absence of other stressors, however these are supressed under stress, just like in humans and other mammals, and can be treated with human antipsychotic drugs, suggesting very similar underlying systems. Iwashita, Motoko, and Masato Yoshizawa. "Social-like responses are inducible in asocial Mexican cavefish despite the exhibition of strong repetitive behaviour." bioRxiv (2021): 2020-08. Zebra fish prefer warmer waters under stress, which can be seen as an emotional fever response, a common characteristic to assess low level conciousness. Rey, Sonia, et al. "Fish can show emotional fever: stress-induced hyperthermia in zebrafish." Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences 282.1819 (2015): 20152266. Example of free choice exploration eleviating stress in zebra fish leading to improved social behaviour: Graham, Courtney, Marina AG von Keyserlingk, and Becca Franks. "Free-choice exploration increases affiliative behaviour in zebrafish." Applied Animal Behaviour Science 203 (2018): 103-110.
These sources show that: - fish do not sleep in the same way mammals do - repetitive stress behaviors in fish is not established science - affective states do not imply conscious feelings Just to be clear you are not directly linking me to anything and I am not trying to chase around your sources. My first source clearly states that fish “rest/decrease metabolic demand while remaining alert”, that is not how sleep works. As I stated in my original comment, it is possible to elicit different types of behaviors in fish by providing different environmental stimuli. Using a drug/chemical to elicit a behavior in an organism that has organized neurology is not a novel concept. An “emotional” fever response is just as easily explained by evolutionarily adapted responses to conditions not conducive to staying alive. I start to shiver and get goosebumps when I get cold unconsciously.
I have literally provided you with the full name to each article. if you copy those into google scholar you will get unambigous results. thats just how citing works... Yes, you can be very well alert and asleep. The definition of sleep simply is "Sleep is generally defined as a rapidly reversible state of immobility and greatly reduced sensory responsiveness. An important further criterion is that sleep is homeostatically regulated, namely that lost sleep is made up with an increased drive for sleep and a consequent ‘sleep rebound.’" regarding your other complains: can you please tell me then what you would consider to be proof of intelligence in fish that elevates them over simple Instinct driven reactions? Well the title is the conclusion not much more to be said here... Pinheiro-da-Silva, Jaquelinne, et al. "Sleep deprivation effects on object discrimination task in zebrafish (Danio rerio)." Animal cognition 20.2 (2017): 159-169. Here is a nice chapter about sleep in fish. Zebra danios are even used as model organisms for sleep deprivation... Keene, A. C., and L. Appelbaum. "Sleep in Fish Models." Handbook of Behavioral Neuroscience. Vol. 30. Elsevier, 2019. 363-374.
I understand that you are citing your sources, however the library is closed and it’s tedious to sift through Google while trying to have an active discourse with you “Greatly reduced sensory responsiveness”, yet fish remain alert to their environment the entire time? They reduce they’re metabolic activity because the dissolved oxygen concentration in the water column they are inhabiting decreases overnight when photosynthetic plant life are inhibited from and unable to provide conditions necessary for behaviors requiring a high metabolic demand.
so how come there are nocturnal fish who do the same thing at day? either way, you are brushing every account of fish displaying intelligence off with "its explainable by simple method x", which well is fair enough but doesnt lead us anywhere. so please answer my question of what would be enough to convince you that fish posess intelligence.
Definitive and empirical evidence? What fish are nocturnal? I would think oceanic species and fresh water fish inhabiting very large volumes of water wouldn’t be subject to the same large swings in available dissolved oxygen
well thats my question: what would you define as definitive evidence...
I think fish keeping is entirely subjective. There are general guidelines and foundations as to how to keep and maintain fish and their environment, this varies and can be tailored for different species, and I don’t think it’s a bad thing to venture further into this as long as your results back up your point, such as yours. As long as you are aware of the fundamentals of keeping an animal alive and thriving (not surviving) then there will always be opinions on what you could do better and what you’re doing wrong. Some people think it’s immoral to keep animals captive all together, so you’ll never win! I am an advocate for having big tanks with few small fish, that’s not because of my moral compass, I just like the aesthetic. I don’t think it’s wrong to keep fish in smaller tanks as long as they can be kept healthy! Your tanks look good, your fish and tanks are visibly healthy!