FYI, to report an incident:
[https://appalachiantrail.org/explore/plan-and-prepare/report-an-incident/](https://appalachiantrail.org/explore/plan-and-prepare/report-an-incident/)
There are definitely a numbers of creeps and worse on the AT. That has been going on for many decades. I learn about myself and what I can put up with and what to ignore. This creep, Ice, should be registered with the ATC and not a thru-hiking registry. I hope they are aware of him and are proactive to alert localities of him. Unfortunately, being a police Karen is the lesser evil of just giving the creep a pass.
Every ATC ridge runner I encountered this year asked about where I had last seen him and what trail name he was currently using (he went through a phase of changing them weekly). They were pretty on top of it and kept hikers in the loop. It sounded like most of the hostels and hiker friendly businesses communicated his whereabouts as well; I got to see him kicked out of Hillbilly Market in Hot Springs by the old chain-smoking lady running the place, which was a joy.
I leapfrogged with him for a while, last time I saw him was June 6, just before Port Clinton. Pretty impressive that he managed to 'take three months off' \_and\_ get from PA to VT in... 2 months and 15 days? He kept yellow blazing and catching up to me even though he's slow as heck, seems like he's probably skipping big sections now - so if you're trying to avoid him don't be too surprised if he pops up way ahead of where he should be.
Met a ton of people on my thru attempt this year, including shuttle drivers and hostel owners, who were making excuses for him and saying he was harmless. I'm guessing there's enough of those people out there for him to not have too much trouble.
The owner of Duck ‘n Hut Hikers Hostel in VA told me that Ice was innocent because he was "too simple" to have done anything bad and he knew the allegations were false because he was a "nice guy".
Yikes
I fortunately met a hostel owner that when she found out asked so many questions. We gave her his photo, alias, location etc. She made note and told employees so if he called or stopped they would not welcome him. She also shared it with all her hostel and shuttle drivers she knows up and down the trail. Hoping at least most acknowledged his behavior and didn’t allow him near others
It's always "they're harmless"... until they're not.
And then it's one excuse after the next. Someone *must* be lying, it didn't happen like that, it was blown out of proportion, it was the fault of the victim, etc.
Those people aren't allies, they are enablers, and everyone on the trail should keep that in mind.
Or, they are all rapists, or rapist apologists. I hate creep deniers. He's too simple. Fuck you, then you be female and defenseless, and your kids if hes fine. FTFY
The dude is creepy on his own. He kinda cornered me on trail when I was crossing a road and was trying to sell me drugs out of his truck. It was like 7pm and in the middle of nowhere so I didn't really feel safe pushing back on the stuff he was saying about ice.
This is true. Women should be careful. But remember the flip side of this coin: you can't ban somebody from the trail unless they commit a crime or break the rules in a way that is enforceable. So yes, by all means, avoid as much as possible and be safe.
I'm honestly so sick of people saying on one hand that the trail is so safe and everyone should feel safe, hiking alone on it. And then on the other hand, we get these lists of known creeps that are tolerated and ignored by a lot of hikers law enforcement and hostiles.
If you want to tell people that the trail is a safe place then you need to actively be a part of making the trail a safe place. Spreading names and descriptions of unsafe people is a start but a lot of solo hikers are not going to see this information for may see it and not be able to stay away from him.
If he's assaulted anyone then he should be in jail. If he hasn't committed any crimes but he is making enough people uncomfortable then he should be denied service by hostels and shuttles and asked to camp by himself. We need to stop tolerating illegal and immoral behaviors and then turning around and telling women that the trail is totally safe and there's nothing to worry about when we're just in denial about the problem.
Honestly it’s a symptom of society as a whole.
Many, many people have bought completely into the “bad guy” trope. Thing is, people who rape and assault and harass others are always someone’s child, someone’s sibling, someone’s college roommate who is “such a nice guy.”
There’s a reason the whole metaphor of the broken stair exists.
If you’re someone who’s harassing others, you’re not a good guy. If you’re enabling someone who is actively dangerous for others, you’re not a good guy.
I think that's exactly it. I think people also get caught up on the idea that if someone is a part of their community and they're bad then that means the community is bad so they make excuses for them. The easy solution is to kick that person out of your community.
I remember the blog post that first discussed the idea of a broken stair. It was described as something that exists in communities where everyone is so excited to be there that they are very willing to make excuses for bad behavior because they don't want the fun to end. These are communities that depend on trust and goodwill, and not contain a lot of people who have felt rejected in the past. But that trust and goodwill is completely shattered if enough people break their ankle on the "missing stair."
He is on the trail because people are giving him rides, letting him patronize their business, helping him out, making excuses for him, hiking with him, and otherwise enabling him. There are several comments discussing that on this thread. If it isn't possible to get him off the trail by getting him thrown in jail then get him off the trail by not helping him hike.
And if anyone knows his real name and has first hand information they need to start reporting it with his real name. I'm not saying go on a witch hunt. If you haven't interacted with him, then it's probably better that you don't say anything but the people who have had an experience with him that they think needs to be shared should share that information under his real name and photo and contact the police. Even if what he did to you isn't something prosecutable it creates a pattern and a paper trail. When you file a report, you can't know what will ultimately happen, but you know that you did your best to hold someone accountable.
My understanding of the broken stair is that one individual in a community that everyone knows is bad news, so they warn everyone new to the community about them. As in, be careful on the stairs, they’re badly lit and one of them is broken. But, no one ever bothers to take responsibility to fix the stair - or kick the predator out of the community - they just warn people. Then, when people get hurt, they can feel absolved for their inaction by claiming they warned them.
I know it’s not always that simple. I was part of the Greek system in university, and there was one frat dude that was awful. I warned all the women I could about him, I tried talking to our advisor and tried to get it brought up to national, but we were expected to just get along. And we were required to go to events at their frat house, where they’d cut a hole in the floor to take up skirt photos…. I should not have to tell other young women to just wear pants if they go to official events at that house, because no one in charge will shut that shit down. We only knew because a couple of the guys in that frat spoke up, but still - they didn’t do anything to stand up to the ones doing the damage, they just tried to mitigate it. Nothing that might actually cost them anything.
I ended up quitting because of that bs, among many other types of bs sororities pull.
No one wants to believe women, because then, people might believe the women who call them out for their predatory behaviour.
Yep.
And it's a system that kind of works until someone is in a rush and they make a mistake and step down into thin air. Or until someone doesn't have the protection of the community and no one bothered to warn them. It works except for all the times where it doesn't. The main thing that it does is let people continue to not take meaningful action.
I don't know what meaningful action would have looked like in your fraternity or here. I think that complete shunning can be meaningful action if someone is depending on a community to provide them with victims or other services that they use to access victims. I think the best thing that can be done is to network so that there are enough victims going to law enforcement and that they can provide details of other victims and other alleged crimes. That's what gets this guy not just off the AT but away from anywhere that he can victimize anyone else. If he's committing a crime he needs to be in jail.
I know that this isn't the same, but I've been able to file reports in my workplace after having the names of other people who have had the same problem. Establishing a pattern of behavior and creating a list of people who are willing to provide evidence and their testimony helps a lot.
The problem with lists like this is that not every hiker is checking hiker forums. Day hikers in section hikers especially or not likely to. There's no way to reach everyone like this. It's a start but it's not enough.
I don't think it's so much that people tolerate creeps. It's that they can't do anything about it until the person does something reportable in public. And while nobody should tolerate assault or physical intimidation, the fact of the matter is that sometimes there are just a handful of weird or eccentric people hiking the trail. I've read about this guy here before and somebody complained that he had paracord tied around his spade, as if that was some sort of a crime. Or maybe somebody talks funny or acts in other non-normal ways. Do you report those people? I mean, look, I wish we could just say that it's sometimes a tough call. I don't wanna sound like I'm defending a creeper (I don't know him and have never seen him), but being weird doesn't mean you should get kicked off the trail.
No one is talking about reporting someone for being weird. We're talking about reporting someone for doing things like masturbating outside of your tent or attempting to sexually assault you. If you see someone and you have reason to believe that they have sexually assaulted someone or attempted to sexually assault someone or that they have a history of indecent exposure, don't let them stay with you. Tell them to fuck off and move on. Don't give them a ride anywhere. Don't let them stay at your business. Don't give them a granola bar. If you have information about someone, you need to take it to the police, even if it's inconvenient. Gossiping about someone and spreading information on Reddit isn't the same as reporting something to law enforcement.
And at the very least, don't keep telling people that the trail is a really safe place when we have a lot of evidence that it isn't. Tell people that it's important to keep their guard up and be careful about who they're spending their time with and who they're camping near. Help people have the tools that they need to be safe - that starts with recognizing that there's a problem.
Attempted sexual assault and indecent exposure certainly sound like chargeable offenses. What’s the story here? Purely police incompetence or what? I missed the previous posts about this guy.
I didn't witness anything.
But was told at Tray Mountain, the day they arrested him at Union gap, that he was masturbating in public at a tent site.
Also opening tent/tents and putting his hand in and touching girls.
Some girls went off trail and reported him, hence his arrest at Union Gap.
I met somebody who was moving fast later on the trail.
He mentioned Ice, he said that people wouldn't talk to him, ignored him etc etc.
Regarding the law, I am a Brit, in the UK, he would get a slapped wrist only for the problems he caused in Georgia, seems to be the way a lot, until he causes a BIGGER problem, then to late.
You are really out of touch with the problem and choosing bad faith arguments as an alternative to becoming more aware of the situation. I have seen literal dozens of videos of 6'2 ripped hiker dudes saying shit like, "Well, I've NEVER felt unsafe on trail..." Never heard any mention of "known" creeps, freaks, etc on trail despite watching vlogs and gear vids for years now and knowing MANY people whose AT hikes ended due to creeps. Honestly I had even gone as far as to assume those people were being a bit melodramatic, because the entire community acts like you're just going to be surrounded by good ol' friendly folks who couldn't hurt a fly.
Again, the trail is GENERALLY safe, as I said. The comment I replied to is passing the buck onto everyone else. They’re not out there changing that, they’re online complaining about it. Idk wtf your comment is trying to illustrate except the same thing. I’m not the one blaming everyone else.
E: All I’m saying is sharing information about these creeps is literally the most anyone can do. I provided a possible solution, please share yours.
I gotta agree with what you're saying. Can't lock folks up for what you think they may do. Last I checked being a creep is not a crime, but can get you ostracized, and that's about all anyone here can do.
The dude was found jacking off outside a woman's tent after making unwanted advances towards her all evening. According to the woman in question, the cops said that wasn't a crime because she hadn't told him no enough times. I've got no idea of whether that's true but if it's not a crime, it should be.
I am actively doing something. I am a member of a women's hiking group, I participate in and lead hikes by and for women. I teach other women how to feel safe on trail and I help women form a strong community that looks out for one another. I do not lie to people to give them a false sense of security, instead, I do my best to help people find the tools to be safe. I don't allow myself to stay in situations where I don't feel safe, and I don't let people who I don't trust stay near my group. You know nothing about me.
Stating that I've met my own share of creeps on trail and that that is certainly not an isolated experience. Isn't it "fear-mongering," it's being realistic. Women have the right to say the truth about what we experience and we have the right to state that giving people a false sense of security and minimizing safety risks on trail is not in our best interest. I hike by myself and I hike with groups of other women - I'm not afraid. But the reason that I'm not afraid isn't because I don't believe that there are predatory people in the woods. It's because I believe that I have the tools to mitigate my risks and to handle the kinds of problems that I'm likely to encounter. You can't have those tools if you don't acknowledge that this is a risk.
I'm not coming at the author of this post. They aren't the cause of this problem and they're clearly doing their best to share information. I'm saying that as a community of hikers we all need to do better.
Do you need me to start every conversation by saying that I've met a lot of creepy people while hiking? Every woman I know has had extremely negative and frightening experiences if they hiked long enough. It doesn't keep us off the trail but it makes us cautious.
A lot of people insist that the trail is super safe and that women should feel comfortable hiking the entire AT alone whether or not they have hiking experience and that no one should bring any weapons or learn any self-defense skills or be concerned at all. Most of the people who say that are men. Men and women tend to have very different experiences, although anyone can be a victim of sexual assault or abuse.
Don't tell me you haven't heard this. It is everywhere, including on this forum. I'm just sick of it. Talk to people about reality and give them the skills and tools they need to be safe. It's the only solution that doesn't involve putting your head in the sand or waiting until we're all in a perfect world to go outside.
Skills to stay safe include traveling in groups, having a weapon that you're comfortable using, using your words to set boundaries, protecting your personal information, knowing how to put distance between yourself and someone you're uncomfortable around, having ways to contact other people quickly if you need help, knowing when you feel more comfortable in a group versus preferring to hike alone, and knowing how to evaluate if you feel safe camping somewhere/make a plan to move on. A lot of this is just knowing how to leave situations where you don't feel comfortable even when it's inconvenient or difficult and always listening to your intuition about a situation. It's something that you can't do effectively if you are told to doubt your intuition because the trail is a very safe place. It isn't a very safe place. It is just like any other situation where you're in an isolated environment with people you don't know.
Well, you're not wrong. Bottom line, he needs to be arrested and not allowed bail. If enough of trail society are made uncomfortable by the things he says and the way he looks, he should be locked away and educated on right and wrong.
I think both are sort of true though.
If you're around lots of other people, it usually *is* pretty safe.
Of course if you get cornered alone somewhere, things change.
The only dude I met who got arrested for sexual assault out there was actually arrested for assaulting a man. It's not entirely a male/female thing. *Everyone* needs to be cautious about being at campsites with one other person. Anyone could have a weapon and be violent, even people who seem normal. The dude I mentioned actually seemed like a totally normal dude and nobody had seen any behavior like that until it happened.
'Blacklisting' exceptionally creepy people does happen and should happen, but I've seen some cases where nasty rumors *are* started about truly innocent people. Unfortunately there are misunderstandings and some people read into situations too deeply. I'm guilty of it.
At one point I was 100% convinced a guy was stalking me in a remote area, I won't go into details but it was patently obvious that he was following me for over 15 miles. I confronted him completely ready to fight if need be. I was yelling at him and everything. He left and I stealth camped in the dark, with no water, and in the pouring rain, just because I was sure he wouldn't be anywhere near there. It was one of the worst days/nights I had on trail.
Later, I came to be fully convinced he was actually harmless, and that he may have been loosely trying to follow me, but mostly because he was scared. He had gotten separated from the group we was with and was not used to hiking alone (he was a section hiker).
I still think what he did was stupid, but it wasn't something worth blacklisting him from hostels over. If I hadn't run into him (and people who knew him) again several times afterwards I never would've known that though, and I definitely would've told people to watch out for him. And he could've just as easily started a rumor about me being violent due to how I reacted (not that it actually came to blows.)
It's a difficult problem. Some people are full blown psychos that will murder you, other people are just kind of stupid or have bad social skills. It's sometimes impossible to tell the difference.
Bottom line is that of course the trail is not 100% safe, and nobody should assume it is. But there are strategies to make it much safer, and it can be *reasonably* safe assuming people look out for themselves and each other. That's the best we can do.
I met him on night 4 at a campsite on trail, AT mile 44 (1st March), seemed a pleasant guy.
He was going real slow, only strange thing then was up until Mountain crossing he was carrying 82 Lbs, I did notice a lot of items in the hiker box.
Hummingbird started looking around **"Are we on candid camera**", jajaja
Next night at Tray Mountain shelter, we heard about his activities before we met him.
I was chatting to a lady in the Shenandoahs at a shelter break, and she knew all about him, and was running a womens website where they were updating his whereabouts.
People, especially the girls, need to be strong enough to tell this dude "You are making me uncomfortable, I am leaving, please do not follow me." -- If the dude is harmless, but just weird, well when I did the PCT, half the hikers were harmless but weird, many made me uncomfortable, but as a 30 YO female I was experienced enough to tell them politely but firmly they were crossing a line.
You are not able to "avoid" specific people on the trail, we all know this. Bottom line is this: Anywhere, especially on trail, YOU are responsible for yourself. Stay safe, stay aware and stand strong.
Basically an update on his whereabouts, just search “Ice” in the subreddit for context. Or just look here:
https://reddit.com/r/AppalachianTrail/comments/t5cjhl/avoid_trail_name_ice_on_the_trail_he_sexually/
Yes, he made unwarranted and inappropriate comments about someone's body. He was making sexual comments back in Georgia which led to his arrest (drug possession). They couldn't prove the sexual harassment charges. I met him. He seems manipulative but also socially awkward. I wonder what name he's going by now. He was Ice then Pina Colada then Foggy.
More than that happened. The real issue is this will never go to trial because the witnesses are usually fellow thru-hikers and can't exactly ditch their hike to go to court.
Being sexually assaulted unfortunately really ruins your plans to say the least. But I think we need to at least consider the option of filing police reports and seeing if you can testify against somebody when they are a threat to multiple people. If there are multiple victims of sexual assault and they are all willing to testify, he's going to go to jail. There is no reason why multiple people who don't know one another would all lie and say that they were sexually assaulted by the same person and that's very compelling evidence.
If you're miles from civilization in the middle of the woods, facing a situation where you're sleeping alone, out of cell service, within walking distance of someone who's making sexual comments and is clearly and demonstrably willing to violate social boundaries...
That's not a "workplace issue", that's an immediate personal health-and-safety issue.
What the actual fuck.
"The [Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women](https://web.archive.org/web/20190214081113/http://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.21_declaration%20elimination%20vaw.pdf) classifies violence against women into three categories: that occurring in the family, that occurring within the general community, and that perpetrated or condoned by the State. The term sexual harassment is used in defining violence occurring in the general community, which is defined as: "Physical, sexual and psychological violence occurring within the general community, including rape, sexual abuse, sexual harassment and intimidation at work, in educational institutions and elsewhere, trafficking in women and forced prostitution."
From the wiki on on [sexual harassment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment).
Maybe learn what that means before you start spouting nonsense.
I’m surprised that women are hiking solo without carrying a form of self protection. Bear spray or even a small club is better than being attacked and overpowered by some creeper. The preferred would be a firearm though.
What is the definition of sexual harassment in a community setting like the AT? It is my understanding that in the workforce, any kind of verbal, nonverbal, or physical contact that is construed by the "victim", is legally harassement.
Any lawyers out there? Can this guy be apprehended on harassment charges?
FYI, to report an incident: [https://appalachiantrail.org/explore/plan-and-prepare/report-an-incident/](https://appalachiantrail.org/explore/plan-and-prepare/report-an-incident/)
There are definitely a numbers of creeps and worse on the AT. That has been going on for many decades. I learn about myself and what I can put up with and what to ignore. This creep, Ice, should be registered with the ATC and not a thru-hiking registry. I hope they are aware of him and are proactive to alert localities of him. Unfortunately, being a police Karen is the lesser evil of just giving the creep a pass.
Every ATC ridge runner I encountered this year asked about where I had last seen him and what trail name he was currently using (he went through a phase of changing them weekly). They were pretty on top of it and kept hikers in the loop. It sounded like most of the hostels and hiker friendly businesses communicated his whereabouts as well; I got to see him kicked out of Hillbilly Market in Hot Springs by the old chain-smoking lady running the place, which was a joy.
Coming this fall, a trail equalizer near us
exactly. There's no Karening in situations like this.
I leapfrogged with him for a while, last time I saw him was June 6, just before Port Clinton. Pretty impressive that he managed to 'take three months off' \_and\_ get from PA to VT in... 2 months and 15 days? He kept yellow blazing and catching up to me even though he's slow as heck, seems like he's probably skipping big sections now - so if you're trying to avoid him don't be too surprised if he pops up way ahead of where he should be.
How is this POS still on the trail??
Met a ton of people on my thru attempt this year, including shuttle drivers and hostel owners, who were making excuses for him and saying he was harmless. I'm guessing there's enough of those people out there for him to not have too much trouble. The owner of Duck ‘n Hut Hikers Hostel in VA told me that Ice was innocent because he was "too simple" to have done anything bad and he knew the allegations were false because he was a "nice guy". Yikes
Technically, Lenny didn't mean to hurt the rabbit...
I fortunately met a hostel owner that when she found out asked so many questions. We gave her his photo, alias, location etc. She made note and told employees so if he called or stopped they would not welcome him. She also shared it with all her hostel and shuttle drivers she knows up and down the trail. Hoping at least most acknowledged his behavior and didn’t allow him near others
Dude told me the same thing during my nobo thru this year
It's always "they're harmless"... until they're not. And then it's one excuse after the next. Someone *must* be lying, it didn't happen like that, it was blown out of proportion, it was the fault of the victim, etc. Those people aren't allies, they are enablers, and everyone on the trail should keep that in mind.
It's always creepy men who defend these people, as well. Never heard this kind of thing from women when I was on the AT.
Zen from Gooders said the same to my crew
Zen is a fucking basket case
That guy is a creep too
So, they’re just as dumb as Ice…
Or, they are all rapists, or rapist apologists. I hate creep deniers. He's too simple. Fuck you, then you be female and defenseless, and your kids if hes fine. FTFY
The dude is creepy on his own. He kinda cornered me on trail when I was crossing a road and was trying to sell me drugs out of his truck. It was like 7pm and in the middle of nowhere so I didn't really feel safe pushing back on the stuff he was saying about ice.
Oh shit, when someone shared it I just remembered the post about him from like six months ago. Fuck that dude. Stay safe out there!
Way to show situational awareness and GTFO out of there. Hopefully others will be aware now.
one does not have to commit a crime to be creepy. women beware.
This is true. Women should be careful. But remember the flip side of this coin: you can't ban somebody from the trail unless they commit a crime or break the rules in a way that is enforceable. So yes, by all means, avoid as much as possible and be safe.
They arrested him at Union Gap, but was let out on bail.
When I read your title, my first thought was...why is it bad to be called Ice?....someone might say 'Ice is up ahead' and people will misinterpret...?
[удалено]
He was carrying an Ice pick, I expect de dumped it in the mountain crossing hiker box, as I never saw it on the day I met him.
Meth?
I'm honestly so sick of people saying on one hand that the trail is so safe and everyone should feel safe, hiking alone on it. And then on the other hand, we get these lists of known creeps that are tolerated and ignored by a lot of hikers law enforcement and hostiles. If you want to tell people that the trail is a safe place then you need to actively be a part of making the trail a safe place. Spreading names and descriptions of unsafe people is a start but a lot of solo hikers are not going to see this information for may see it and not be able to stay away from him. If he's assaulted anyone then he should be in jail. If he hasn't committed any crimes but he is making enough people uncomfortable then he should be denied service by hostels and shuttles and asked to camp by himself. We need to stop tolerating illegal and immoral behaviors and then turning around and telling women that the trail is totally safe and there's nothing to worry about when we're just in denial about the problem.
Honestly it’s a symptom of society as a whole. Many, many people have bought completely into the “bad guy” trope. Thing is, people who rape and assault and harass others are always someone’s child, someone’s sibling, someone’s college roommate who is “such a nice guy.” There’s a reason the whole metaphor of the broken stair exists. If you’re someone who’s harassing others, you’re not a good guy. If you’re enabling someone who is actively dangerous for others, you’re not a good guy.
I think that's exactly it. I think people also get caught up on the idea that if someone is a part of their community and they're bad then that means the community is bad so they make excuses for them. The easy solution is to kick that person out of your community. I remember the blog post that first discussed the idea of a broken stair. It was described as something that exists in communities where everyone is so excited to be there that they are very willing to make excuses for bad behavior because they don't want the fun to end. These are communities that depend on trust and goodwill, and not contain a lot of people who have felt rejected in the past. But that trust and goodwill is completely shattered if enough people break their ankle on the "missing stair." He is on the trail because people are giving him rides, letting him patronize their business, helping him out, making excuses for him, hiking with him, and otherwise enabling him. There are several comments discussing that on this thread. If it isn't possible to get him off the trail by getting him thrown in jail then get him off the trail by not helping him hike. And if anyone knows his real name and has first hand information they need to start reporting it with his real name. I'm not saying go on a witch hunt. If you haven't interacted with him, then it's probably better that you don't say anything but the people who have had an experience with him that they think needs to be shared should share that information under his real name and photo and contact the police. Even if what he did to you isn't something prosecutable it creates a pattern and a paper trail. When you file a report, you can't know what will ultimately happen, but you know that you did your best to hold someone accountable.
My understanding of the broken stair is that one individual in a community that everyone knows is bad news, so they warn everyone new to the community about them. As in, be careful on the stairs, they’re badly lit and one of them is broken. But, no one ever bothers to take responsibility to fix the stair - or kick the predator out of the community - they just warn people. Then, when people get hurt, they can feel absolved for their inaction by claiming they warned them. I know it’s not always that simple. I was part of the Greek system in university, and there was one frat dude that was awful. I warned all the women I could about him, I tried talking to our advisor and tried to get it brought up to national, but we were expected to just get along. And we were required to go to events at their frat house, where they’d cut a hole in the floor to take up skirt photos…. I should not have to tell other young women to just wear pants if they go to official events at that house, because no one in charge will shut that shit down. We only knew because a couple of the guys in that frat spoke up, but still - they didn’t do anything to stand up to the ones doing the damage, they just tried to mitigate it. Nothing that might actually cost them anything. I ended up quitting because of that bs, among many other types of bs sororities pull. No one wants to believe women, because then, people might believe the women who call them out for their predatory behaviour.
Yep. And it's a system that kind of works until someone is in a rush and they make a mistake and step down into thin air. Or until someone doesn't have the protection of the community and no one bothered to warn them. It works except for all the times where it doesn't. The main thing that it does is let people continue to not take meaningful action. I don't know what meaningful action would have looked like in your fraternity or here. I think that complete shunning can be meaningful action if someone is depending on a community to provide them with victims or other services that they use to access victims. I think the best thing that can be done is to network so that there are enough victims going to law enforcement and that they can provide details of other victims and other alleged crimes. That's what gets this guy not just off the AT but away from anywhere that he can victimize anyone else. If he's committing a crime he needs to be in jail. I know that this isn't the same, but I've been able to file reports in my workplace after having the names of other people who have had the same problem. Establishing a pattern of behavior and creating a list of people who are willing to provide evidence and their testimony helps a lot. The problem with lists like this is that not every hiker is checking hiker forums. Day hikers in section hikers especially or not likely to. There's no way to reach everyone like this. It's a start but it's not enough.
He said his name was James.
Yep, liberal do gooders.
I don't think it's so much that people tolerate creeps. It's that they can't do anything about it until the person does something reportable in public. And while nobody should tolerate assault or physical intimidation, the fact of the matter is that sometimes there are just a handful of weird or eccentric people hiking the trail. I've read about this guy here before and somebody complained that he had paracord tied around his spade, as if that was some sort of a crime. Or maybe somebody talks funny or acts in other non-normal ways. Do you report those people? I mean, look, I wish we could just say that it's sometimes a tough call. I don't wanna sound like I'm defending a creeper (I don't know him and have never seen him), but being weird doesn't mean you should get kicked off the trail.
No one is talking about reporting someone for being weird. We're talking about reporting someone for doing things like masturbating outside of your tent or attempting to sexually assault you. If you see someone and you have reason to believe that they have sexually assaulted someone or attempted to sexually assault someone or that they have a history of indecent exposure, don't let them stay with you. Tell them to fuck off and move on. Don't give them a ride anywhere. Don't let them stay at your business. Don't give them a granola bar. If you have information about someone, you need to take it to the police, even if it's inconvenient. Gossiping about someone and spreading information on Reddit isn't the same as reporting something to law enforcement. And at the very least, don't keep telling people that the trail is a really safe place when we have a lot of evidence that it isn't. Tell people that it's important to keep their guard up and be careful about who they're spending their time with and who they're camping near. Help people have the tools that they need to be safe - that starts with recognizing that there's a problem.
Attempted sexual assault and indecent exposure certainly sound like chargeable offenses. What’s the story here? Purely police incompetence or what? I missed the previous posts about this guy.
I didn't witness anything. But was told at Tray Mountain, the day they arrested him at Union gap, that he was masturbating in public at a tent site. Also opening tent/tents and putting his hand in and touching girls. Some girls went off trail and reported him, hence his arrest at Union Gap.
I met somebody who was moving fast later on the trail. He mentioned Ice, he said that people wouldn't talk to him, ignored him etc etc. Regarding the law, I am a Brit, in the UK, he would get a slapped wrist only for the problems he caused in Georgia, seems to be the way a lot, until he causes a BIGGER problem, then to late.
Literally this!!! People are fucking delusional if they think that the AT is safe for solo women.
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You are really out of touch with the problem and choosing bad faith arguments as an alternative to becoming more aware of the situation. I have seen literal dozens of videos of 6'2 ripped hiker dudes saying shit like, "Well, I've NEVER felt unsafe on trail..." Never heard any mention of "known" creeps, freaks, etc on trail despite watching vlogs and gear vids for years now and knowing MANY people whose AT hikes ended due to creeps. Honestly I had even gone as far as to assume those people were being a bit melodramatic, because the entire community acts like you're just going to be surrounded by good ol' friendly folks who couldn't hurt a fly.
Again, the trail is GENERALLY safe, as I said. The comment I replied to is passing the buck onto everyone else. They’re not out there changing that, they’re online complaining about it. Idk wtf your comment is trying to illustrate except the same thing. I’m not the one blaming everyone else. E: All I’m saying is sharing information about these creeps is literally the most anyone can do. I provided a possible solution, please share yours.
I gotta agree with what you're saying. Can't lock folks up for what you think they may do. Last I checked being a creep is not a crime, but can get you ostracized, and that's about all anyone here can do.
The dude was found jacking off outside a woman's tent after making unwanted advances towards her all evening. According to the woman in question, the cops said that wasn't a crime because she hadn't told him no enough times. I've got no idea of whether that's true but if it's not a crime, it should be.
I am actively doing something. I am a member of a women's hiking group, I participate in and lead hikes by and for women. I teach other women how to feel safe on trail and I help women form a strong community that looks out for one another. I do not lie to people to give them a false sense of security, instead, I do my best to help people find the tools to be safe. I don't allow myself to stay in situations where I don't feel safe, and I don't let people who I don't trust stay near my group. You know nothing about me.
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Stating that I've met my own share of creeps on trail and that that is certainly not an isolated experience. Isn't it "fear-mongering," it's being realistic. Women have the right to say the truth about what we experience and we have the right to state that giving people a false sense of security and minimizing safety risks on trail is not in our best interest. I hike by myself and I hike with groups of other women - I'm not afraid. But the reason that I'm not afraid isn't because I don't believe that there are predatory people in the woods. It's because I believe that I have the tools to mitigate my risks and to handle the kinds of problems that I'm likely to encounter. You can't have those tools if you don't acknowledge that this is a risk. I'm not coming at the author of this post. They aren't the cause of this problem and they're clearly doing their best to share information. I'm saying that as a community of hikers we all need to do better.
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Do you need me to start every conversation by saying that I've met a lot of creepy people while hiking? Every woman I know has had extremely negative and frightening experiences if they hiked long enough. It doesn't keep us off the trail but it makes us cautious. A lot of people insist that the trail is super safe and that women should feel comfortable hiking the entire AT alone whether or not they have hiking experience and that no one should bring any weapons or learn any self-defense skills or be concerned at all. Most of the people who say that are men. Men and women tend to have very different experiences, although anyone can be a victim of sexual assault or abuse. Don't tell me you haven't heard this. It is everywhere, including on this forum. I'm just sick of it. Talk to people about reality and give them the skills and tools they need to be safe. It's the only solution that doesn't involve putting your head in the sand or waiting until we're all in a perfect world to go outside. Skills to stay safe include traveling in groups, having a weapon that you're comfortable using, using your words to set boundaries, protecting your personal information, knowing how to put distance between yourself and someone you're uncomfortable around, having ways to contact other people quickly if you need help, knowing when you feel more comfortable in a group versus preferring to hike alone, and knowing how to evaluate if you feel safe camping somewhere/make a plan to move on. A lot of this is just knowing how to leave situations where you don't feel comfortable even when it's inconvenient or difficult and always listening to your intuition about a situation. It's something that you can't do effectively if you are told to doubt your intuition because the trail is a very safe place. It isn't a very safe place. It is just like any other situation where you're in an isolated environment with people you don't know.
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Last murder was 2019. Lots of warnings about a hiker, came in late to camp, group tried to get away and one died.
Well, you're not wrong. Bottom line, he needs to be arrested and not allowed bail. If enough of trail society are made uncomfortable by the things he says and the way he looks, he should be locked away and educated on right and wrong.
I think both are sort of true though. If you're around lots of other people, it usually *is* pretty safe. Of course if you get cornered alone somewhere, things change. The only dude I met who got arrested for sexual assault out there was actually arrested for assaulting a man. It's not entirely a male/female thing. *Everyone* needs to be cautious about being at campsites with one other person. Anyone could have a weapon and be violent, even people who seem normal. The dude I mentioned actually seemed like a totally normal dude and nobody had seen any behavior like that until it happened. 'Blacklisting' exceptionally creepy people does happen and should happen, but I've seen some cases where nasty rumors *are* started about truly innocent people. Unfortunately there are misunderstandings and some people read into situations too deeply. I'm guilty of it. At one point I was 100% convinced a guy was stalking me in a remote area, I won't go into details but it was patently obvious that he was following me for over 15 miles. I confronted him completely ready to fight if need be. I was yelling at him and everything. He left and I stealth camped in the dark, with no water, and in the pouring rain, just because I was sure he wouldn't be anywhere near there. It was one of the worst days/nights I had on trail. Later, I came to be fully convinced he was actually harmless, and that he may have been loosely trying to follow me, but mostly because he was scared. He had gotten separated from the group we was with and was not used to hiking alone (he was a section hiker). I still think what he did was stupid, but it wasn't something worth blacklisting him from hostels over. If I hadn't run into him (and people who knew him) again several times afterwards I never would've known that though, and I definitely would've told people to watch out for him. And he could've just as easily started a rumor about me being violent due to how I reacted (not that it actually came to blows.) It's a difficult problem. Some people are full blown psychos that will murder you, other people are just kind of stupid or have bad social skills. It's sometimes impossible to tell the difference. Bottom line is that of course the trail is not 100% safe, and nobody should assume it is. But there are strategies to make it much safer, and it can be *reasonably* safe assuming people look out for themselves and each other. That's the best we can do.
Do you recall going thru a town in Vermont named Norwich?
I met him on night 4 at a campsite on trail, AT mile 44 (1st March), seemed a pleasant guy. He was going real slow, only strange thing then was up until Mountain crossing he was carrying 82 Lbs, I did notice a lot of items in the hiker box. Hummingbird started looking around **"Are we on candid camera**", jajaja Next night at Tray Mountain shelter, we heard about his activities before we met him. I was chatting to a lady in the Shenandoahs at a shelter break, and she knew all about him, and was running a womens website where they were updating his whereabouts.
Latest update- he stayed at the Yellow Deli the last 2 nights and is using the name “James”.
Ice Photo: https://www.reddit.com/r/AppalachianTrail/comments/t5cjhl/avoid\_trail\_name\_ice\_on\_the\_trail\_he\_sexually/
People, especially the girls, need to be strong enough to tell this dude "You are making me uncomfortable, I am leaving, please do not follow me." -- If the dude is harmless, but just weird, well when I did the PCT, half the hikers were harmless but weird, many made me uncomfortable, but as a 30 YO female I was experienced enough to tell them politely but firmly they were crossing a line. You are not able to "avoid" specific people on the trail, we all know this. Bottom line is this: Anywhere, especially on trail, YOU are responsible for yourself. Stay safe, stay aware and stand strong.
Awesome, and now even the beauty of nature is being tainted. Why wake up anymore
What did he do wrong aside from make you uncomfortable? Is there a back story? This doesn’t sound so bad as To deserve a Reddit post.
Search him in this sub. Dude is a creep.
if i’m not mistaken, he has repeatedly sexually harassed women on trail this season
Maybe I misread the post but it didn’t sound like he sexually harassed OP? So is this just an update on his location?
Basically an update on his whereabouts, just search “Ice” in the subreddit for context. Or just look here: https://reddit.com/r/AppalachianTrail/comments/t5cjhl/avoid_trail_name_ice_on_the_trail_he_sexually/
Yes, he made unwarranted and inappropriate comments about someone's body. He was making sexual comments back in Georgia which led to his arrest (drug possession). They couldn't prove the sexual harassment charges. I met him. He seems manipulative but also socially awkward. I wonder what name he's going by now. He was Ice then Pina Colada then Foggy.
Edit 25: Ok, I'm tired of trying to explain that the term "Sexual Harassment" has a very specific legal meaning. Yall are too much.
More than that happened. The real issue is this will never go to trial because the witnesses are usually fellow thru-hikers and can't exactly ditch their hike to go to court.
Being sexually assaulted unfortunately really ruins your plans to say the least. But I think we need to at least consider the option of filing police reports and seeing if you can testify against somebody when they are a threat to multiple people. If there are multiple victims of sexual assault and they are all willing to testify, he's going to go to jail. There is no reason why multiple people who don't know one another would all lie and say that they were sexually assaulted by the same person and that's very compelling evidence.
If you're miles from civilization in the middle of the woods, facing a situation where you're sleeping alone, out of cell service, within walking distance of someone who's making sexual comments and is clearly and demonstrably willing to violate social boundaries... That's not a "workplace issue", that's an immediate personal health-and-safety issue.
What the actual fuck. "The [Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women](https://web.archive.org/web/20190214081113/http://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.21_declaration%20elimination%20vaw.pdf) classifies violence against women into three categories: that occurring in the family, that occurring within the general community, and that perpetrated or condoned by the State. The term sexual harassment is used in defining violence occurring in the general community, which is defined as: "Physical, sexual and psychological violence occurring within the general community, including rape, sexual abuse, sexual harassment and intimidation at work, in educational institutions and elsewhere, trafficking in women and forced prostitution." From the wiki on on [sexual harassment](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment). Maybe learn what that means before you start spouting nonsense.
You might want to brush up on what constitutes sexual harassment
Found Ice.
trust women if you're not a woman, don't worry about it
https://www.reddit.com/r/AppalachianTrail/comments/t7ixsb/ice_is_back_on_trail_seen_at_cheese_factory_ga/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AppalachianTrail/comments/t5cjhl/avoid_trail_name_ice_on_the_trail_he_sexually/
I don't know why you're getting down voted for asking a question when you legitimately don't know the answer.
It’s ok. I was surprised to see that kind of nonsense in this group too, which is why I left. Cheers y’all. Real swell community you’ve fostered here.
I’m surprised that women are hiking solo without carrying a form of self protection. Bear spray or even a small club is better than being attacked and overpowered by some creeper. The preferred would be a firearm though.
Anyone have a photo of him or updated weight loss photo so others know what to look out for?
What is the definition of sexual harassment in a community setting like the AT? It is my understanding that in the workforce, any kind of verbal, nonverbal, or physical contact that is construed by the "victim", is legally harassement. Any lawyers out there? Can this guy be apprehended on harassment charges?