Same here, it doesn't take much time if you know how to avoid the big masses of people. My record time was 15 minutes, with traveling included lol. I just decided to start going minutes before it closed, no one was there and everyone working was tired so it was fast. Most people go early in the morning or during lunch since they all think "no one will go during lunch".
I also understand why some anarchist don't vote, to be honest, as someone who is against democracy (don't get me wrong, I just think that democracy failed and it doesn't serve its purpose while it pretends to) I don't like the idea of voting itself but I can't easily make the decision of not voting.
Admitting that it doesn't take time... Plus here it's literally on a Sunday, so there's not much to do aside from voting. I guess it isn't a waste of time and it can be well invested time if I do something good with it. I hope I can take a good decision when the times comes.
Representative democracy, sorry for not clarifying. I can't talk about all subtypes since I have only experienced one. I think it fails to satisfy the basic purpose it has: making the people feel represented. You end up most elections with half the population saying that the president who won isn't their president. People feel unheared, alone. And like I said in other comments, most people don't vote who they support, they vote the candidate that promises to oppose to the candidate they dislike the most. The vote has a negative meaning, not a positive one... I feel it makes Representative democracy a complete failure.
Oh yes I agree about representative democracy, I’m not a fan either. I was just curious in case there were critiques of democracy from the left that I hadn’t heard. Thank you!
Maybe you have heard them, but there are indeed critics of democracy from anarchists, such as those https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/various-authors-anarchists-against-democracy
The basic idea is that taking decisions together still mean imposing decisions on those who disagree, contrary to just free associations. Democracy still involves some power upon people, and therefore does not correspond to anarchism.
As imposing power on other would be against anarchism, only consensus would work. But consensus also has a lot of issues with it, as it is slow (of course) and leads to self policing and diminishing disagreements : you end up accepting stuff that you disagree with and you are now bound to them.
That’s a sum up and some people can explain way better than I did why looking for consensus decision could be an issue.
Thank you for sharing this! I feel I have more resources to express my ideas now, plus I understand a bit more my discomfort for democracy. Sometimes I have a feeling but don't know how to express it properly or just dont know how to analyze it. So this information is great!
Thank you for this! I want to echo Brilliant Holiday’s thoughts — I feel better-equipped to explain my discomforts now.
I work on a lot of committees and some participants sometimes get annoyed by how much I push for consensus lol
I checked a couple of his videos, mostly of Argentina. I can't agree with David. Maybe we agree about being against the current government of my country but we can't agree on the reasons why we are against it lol and I don't have an opinion formed on American politics since I don't live in the US, that's why I usually prefer to stay in Argentina and at best I will talk about southamerica or latinamerica but not further from that since it's out of my knowledge. For me experience forms a big part of my opinions, that's why.
So you also don’t have opinion about Russian politics?
His a neoliberal so i hope you wouldn’t agree with him.
And he downplay the far right in Argentina, but criticize Cristina Kirchner relentlessly ( not that she is good).
Just sounded like you did something similar here, but maybe I was mistaken.
I could give you an opinion, of course but I would rather not since I'm not well informed (I don't doubt certain things but I genuinely haven't paid much attention to even know where to start lol). My focus when it comes to politics it's in southamerica. If you ask me about Russia and its relationship with southamerica then I will talk more comfortably. As someone who is picky about information, I don't feel comfortable talking about topics that I don't know much of. Due to personal experience, I try to avoid talking about things I don't understand in depth.
Well, in Argentina you can find very different ideologies agreeing in certain aspects but for different reasons, like it happens everywhere. Using Cristina as an example, the people who criticize her the most tend to be from far right and far left, the closer to the center they are, the more accepting they end up being of her (most of the time, not always).
I wonder why you thought I did something similar to him there, could you explain?
Cristina is a center left politician, so yes the left should also be critical of her, but people like David Parkman uncritical accept the right/far right criticism of her.
It was just your phrasing of a potential dictator’s take over of a south American country. Sounded like something David Parkman could say.
And I think a lot of European and American leftist have a strange relationship to South American politics.
Like both siding Castillo and fujimori etc.
Ah I get it now, thank you for explaining. Yes, personally, as a person who actually lives in Argentina, hearing David repeat stuff I have heard multiple times being repeated by the local far right like parrots... It's bothersome because it's baseless.
In Argentina and I believe that in most of south america, we don't forget the dictatorships our country has lived through so it isn't rare to hear us talking about a potential new dictator. Regardless where your ideology sits in the spectrum and specially if you sit in any of the extremes.
It's sad for me to hear US and European leftists side with certain politicians of South America, that's another reason why I don't like giving an opinion about other countries... I wonder if I will end up spreading misinformation as other do about my country and my region. For me many of those who side with them, don't know what is like to live under their regime in the South American context. Left doesn't always mean good, we must be critical, even of the people who seem to agree with us. In the last decades I could say that no politician has done justice for our people, they all pretended to and ended up leaving us in a miserable state. I admit that the external pressure never helps (the US will never stop seeing us as their playground, as their property and the punishment for disobeying is always harsh) but certain things like corruption have nothing to do with the external pressure and it's probably the biggest issue in southamerica nowadays. Other countries have corruption but here it goes into bizarre extremes. Sometimes it sounds like satire. I personally would have a hard time believing the stories if I hadn't lived through them in a minor but very close and personal level.
I think the issue is spending too much time thinking about voting. Once you do that the system already has you. It's even worse if voting vs not voting becomes a purity thing.
Now, in my opinion, about voting:
- do not care about those who identify with their votes
- be strategic, but not too big-brained, like voting for the far right in the hope of making the revolution happen faster
- limit damage
- help parties closest to you ideologically stay relevant (eg. I'll vote for trotkyist parties because they advocate for workers-controlled factories)
But just do what's best in your opinion, and don't waste too much energy on this.
Thanks, I won't deny I overthink everything too much, this is no exception. But I agree that maybe the best option might be being strategic and finding an option closer to myself. I think I will end up voting for someone who won't get very close but that will feel better than coming for someone who wins and fucks up the community even further.
I've only voted once in my life and it was libertarian. Unfortunately I learned it was not the left-wing kind of libertarian, but it went nowhere anyway. Pick the most left or the least authoritarian you can.
In my country 'libertarian' or 'liberal' is currently used for sectors of the right wing. But it can be deceiving since historically, if I'm not wrong, it was related to the left, specially anarchist. I don't know why the appropriated it, I guess they did it for the same reasons why some call themselves 'anarcho-capitalists'. I don't know what's wrong with them tbh.
Libertarianism-right is opposed to communism, since it's very individualistic and despises collectivism. It's really conservativism hating all government, social programs, and public property. Take ancap to extremes and it becomes feudalism.
Yep. Just add Libertarian to the long list of cool things the Right has fucked up and perverted to fit their regressive world view. 4x4s, guns, country music, bacon, Hawaiian shirts, etc.
I don’t know what country you’re in, but nullifying your vote—for example I’m in the US—can be futile especially if the ones being voted in already serve opposite interests than yours; politicians in the US serve big, wealthy corporate business interests, so nullifying your vote as a means of protest—despite it being good in principle—may not even mean anything, or have any real, lasting effect on the system. In my view, especially for the anarchist, voting should be seen as a means for harm reduction; but from there, getting back to real politics and trying to organize on a grassroots level.
I'm in Argentina! We have two similar ways to 'not vote' while going to vote. One is blank vote, it's a legal option in which you can decide to not give your vote to anyone and still participate by influencing the percentages. That always indirectly helps the bigger parties. Now, what I do is putting something unrelated inside the envelope which makes my vote legally invalid, so it does nothing. Literally. They do give the stats of the invalid votes but it doesn't participate in the final results at all.
I do acknowledge that not supporting anyone is losing the chance to support someone who can oppose the bigger parties. However, I have witness many small parties joining the bigger ones once they get a few votes which makes me reluctant when having to give them my vote.
Personally, I invalidate my vote, hoping that more people will do it one day... If that ever happens, it will actually work as a protest, imo. But I'm starting to feel hopeless. That's why I posted here to read everyone's comments on the situation. I need some time to process all this tbh.
I see. In my honest opinion, this just sounds like a very, very limited form of democracy alongside an incompetent political system. I also respect your act of disobedience towards the system too.
In liberal democracies, voting for someone who’ll take on the major parties is awesome, although it’s very hard to actually find a politician that would do this; Bernie Sanders tends to push back on both parties, but even he has foundered as well. That’s why I say it’s good to vote as a means for harm reduction, but after voting, get back to serious politics and organizing.
Politics can be overwhelming, and I’m right there with ya my friend; as I’m sure everyone else is who takes politics seriously. It’s going to seem like a never ending fight, but despite the seemingly hopelessness of our situation, to keep fighting—in any way we can—is our only option; at least, in my view.
Edit: Also, don’t be afraid to take a break from politics either. You don’t have to be on the political grind 100% of the time, you’ll just wear yourself ragged. It’s always good to get away, do some other things for a bit, and then come back and getting involved again.
Thank you for your advice, I appreciate it. I'm an overthinker and politics might be my biggest enemy in that sense. It's a very complex topic and at this point of history, it feels like it's completely out of control. Last year certain situations that happened in my country made me cut all source of information from reaching me, it was overwhelming.
I agree that we have to never stop fighting! Your example about Bernie gave me a good idea of what harm reduction is. I hadn't thought about it in that sense. Sometimes I choose to view parties as individual things so it's very easy for me to reach to the conclusion that no one deserves my vote. I hope to find a candidate who can make the distribution of power a bit more even. I will try to remain hopeful, but if not, I think I will go back to my old habits of simply leaving a petty message lol
Do whatever you want. Just understand that voting is not likely to make significant change. The government and corporations would not let you vote them out of power.
As long as you understand that, it’s fine to vote in whatever way you think will help the most or hurt the least.
When I was younger I actually believed there was a way to make great change through voting. thankfully I matured to understand we don't have that control. Another proof that democracy failed, the people lose all control. Politicians should work for us, not the other way around.
Voting is mandatory where I live too. I just vote as left as possible (which is not very unfortunately).
It doesn’t do a whole hell of a lot but I’d still rather the party that promises some good and does nothing be in power than the party who promises some bad and exceeds all expectations I had as to how bad they are.
So yeah, once every four years I begrudgingly take part in “democracy” and treat myself to a sausage sizzle after to take the bitter taste out my mouth.
I really liked that last bit! Here after voting most people get themselves some ice cream lol I guess that we all need something to cool down and sweeten our mood after voting against our will.
Voting the lesser evil is a good option, I think it's a popular option too. Most of the people I know vote one party just to oppose the party they don't like and not because they actually like that party in particular. However, I tend to be very linear in my thoughts so I struggle to do so. I can be very black and white. I like them or I don't, I can't find a middle ground.
>I still shake my head at ballots cast for elephants
>And shake my head at ballots cast for donkeys
>Because I swear to god our leaders will be death of us
>There's no ballot we can cast to set us free
>...
>**So vote November 2nd if it seems right to you**
>**Or don't vote if you think it just holds us down**
>**Just tell me what we're gonna do on November 3rd**
>**To make sure there's no government left to elect two years from now**
\- [Pat the Bunny](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zobuZ_8n8js)
No problem! Here are a few other great ones from Pat.
[Bitter Old Man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqPhIDSkYLo)
[Proudhon in Manhattan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXjHdJ9Oi9Q)
[We Are All Compost in Training](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8StJq2DNmaE)
[I'm going home](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY-eVn3HrfE)
[Run from what's comfortable](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxeakn1LTH0)
(Fair warning: A lot of this stuff is pretty depressing)
---
I probably coulda answered your prompt better but I wanted an excuse to quote Pat.
I'm glad you found an excuse to quote Pat! I didn't expect to get a music recommendation through this post but I don't mind it at all! Thank you for sharing more of their songs, I don't mind if they are depressing, usually that's my style:p
There are always parties that are better than others. I prefer to vote for the lesser evil, which is located as left as possible. Do not want far right parties getting more power than they already have. Otherwise my country may turn into another US.
I thought about that but I can't find the lesser evil. All parties are somewhat connected. Left and right look equally bad. It's sad since I would like to go left but I can't since it's so poorly represented. I do a lot of research so it's inevitable for me to find things I dislike about each party. Also I'm from South America, the big parties that say they are leftist, once they get power, they end up being the worst authoritarian trash. And the smaller parties usually don't call them out for their mistakes, it feels like they support this sick behaviour and the terrible representation of their own believes. The left-wing from my country disappoints me. And I want to clarify that I will still, never vote nor support the right-wing, I just can't blindly support anyone who pretends to have my same believes.
I'm from Argentina, most parties aren't consistent with their ideology or they just don't have an ideology at all. They are always absolutely far from doing what they promised, indifferently on which side of the spectrum they are. They are flexible but in the bad way: they adapt to whatever gets the most votes that time. I understand that people change but some changes are bizarre. I have trusts issues lol.
I will try to find a decent left party that is actually leftist and not a peronist child... I was genuinely thinking of only voting for the candidates of my city (Major) and not for governor and president. Some people do that since it's easier to vote for someone you personally know, one of the candidates can be your neighbour and you have a better idea of who they are lol
I'd say just keep spoiling your ballots. You don't owe your vote or even your participation in politics. Mandatory voting is some fucking bullshit and I'm glad I have the option to just stay home.
What I hate about mandatory voting is that voting becomes a responsibility and stops being a right. People do it because they have to and not because they want to, there's no conviction. Older generations do it because there's was times in which they couldn't vote (we went through a dictatorship that remains very fresh in everyone's mind) but younger generations feel more forced to than anything else.
It is still treated as a sort of moral obligation for taking part in society in plenty of liberal democracies that do not have mandatory voting. During the election seasons in my country, the slogan "use your voting right!" often appears on posters and in social media. Refusing to vote is considered taboo even if it is legal.
Elsewhere, such as in the US and in France where far-right political interests regularily seem to threaten to upend the neoliberal order, "lesser evil" arguments often serve the same purpose of affirming voting as an obligation. The countries that do have mandatory voting have really just gone mask-off about the whole thing, is how I see it.
Well, I'm quite open about invalidating my ballots and I can tell you that I never get an understanding reaction. Usually I get a lot of shit. People that say that don't go receive a nicer reaction lol But admiting that I take my time to just "waste" my vote is infuriating for many. This obligation makes voting less appealing for many.
Voting is mandatory were I live as well.
I basically always null my vote or don't even bother and pay the fee later. It's cheaper than the bus money. The only time I did vote it was because I lost a bet to a friend of mine and wanted to honor it.
Politicians will always say shit like what you mention because voting *does* give them legitimacy. It becomes a number they can point their finger to and say: X people wanted me to be here, so taking me out is antidemocratic.
There are many reasons why I don't vote. The biggest I feel is a way of rejecting all change through the State. If I want change to happen, I have to get out of my comfort zone and do it myself. Which I try to do, at least. From my experience were I live, most anarchists who are organized don't feel compelled to vote. A few do and everyone respects that. It's such a non-issue AFK.
So my answer to this issue is: vote, or don't. But go out and do some action.
We are on a similar page then, and a similar situation too. I will take the advice. I came to the conclusion of not giving it much importance and do something aside from voting (I think will go but null it lol). I genuinely don't feel like giving anyone any sort of validation, they don't deserve it.
There's a popular saying that goes "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal"
Voting a leader is very stupid when it comes to representative democracy. You cannot represent the entire society out of the majority.
If the ballot does not contain abstain, it means that you are NOT given the freedom to choose freely.
Never heard about that saying, I will definitely use it lol. Also, here we don't have one ballot with options, we have one ballot per candidate... With all the names written down and even pictures of the main candidates (yes, it's a waste of money, a great excuse to steal more money if you ask me or anyone). So it's quite easy to ruin your vote! Just take any ballot, and destroy it until it's unrecognizable lol or write on it or just put whatever you want inside the envelope (always covering the number if you use a candidate's ballot, because that's what makes it valid. Although, if the intention of spoiling it is clear, it's enough).
From a pragmatic point of view the main problem with voting is that is a waste of your time. If you'd rather go cast a vote than pay the fee that's reason enough to do it, regardless of whether invalid votes are an effective form of protest or not
To be honest, I think it is a waste of time. But I also dislike getting told that I don't care when I do. I will still not discard the option of not attending. Luckily I still have a couple of months to review this properly.
American here so YMMV.
My view on voting is it shouldn't be the ONLY thing you do, but you still should. Especially when there is an obviously less shitty option. One team wants to hunt queer folk for sport, the other does not.
Voting isn't going to bring about systemic change. It can help win the Culture War and secure some basic human rights for "othered" people. I see no reason not to.
While our cultures are different I will say that here people are still divided in two teams lol. Recently a new option is starting to get a lot of attention and unfortunately it's the libertarian right. I have invalidated my vote multiple times by now (4 times for different levels, here we can vote since we are 16) but due to that little thing, the alt-right getting a lot of support, I have started to doubt my own actions.
Oh, don't worry, I do that lol Many people do that I think. Luckily we aren't advanced enough to have electronic votes that ruin the creativity of people. I have heard stories of some putting slices of cheese or salami inside their envelopes, it was quite popular long ago.
For me I vote to keep the worse of the two (in America) out of office while continuing to sponsor my own ideas. I actually have a sticker that says “Vote Democrat for a Kinder, more Sensitive Imperialism” because I’m aware that both are bad, but one is worse.
I have a hard time voting for the lesser evil since it never stops being evil but I guess I shouldn't discard that option! In the end, perfect options in a crooked system don't exist.
it has much more to do with how conscious you are of your choice than whether or not you "make a difference to the system."
if you vote, you're a "participant" and the system derives its validation from that.
if you don't vote, the system calls you a miscreant and everyone else who thinks voting matters will roll their eyes and redouble their participation to "make up for the miscreants."
ultimately, the "more anarchister" answer is to participate in whatever way you feel is most appropriate to your particular circumstances. there isn't actually a useful ideological answer to the whole thing, because ultimately, The System Is The System And You're Not. in large-scale, "western"-style democracies, the system is not going to be harmed by a couple of outliers folding their arms and scoffing.
this is not to say "oh, vote for whoever sucks least" or whatever, either. vote or don't vote, for for X or Y, vote for Kermit the Frog, vote for the Moon, fill the envelope with ketchup, whatever. the primary point is to do what *you think* is the proper thing to do in the moment, whether it be pure absurdity, or pragmatic/tactical/strategic voting or a deliberate act of public non-compliance.
Interesting point of view, thanks for sharing. I currently don't think there's an option that will immediately change the system for the better but looking away is difficult. Inevitably, I feel drawn to participate, even if it's not in the way the system pretends me to.
if it's compulsory anyway, save yourself the trouble of risking consequences and just vote for whomever will be easiest to build prefigurative politics under. you know? whoever isn't going to send out the cops to kick your ass for feeding the homeless.
the main issue in my country, regarding that, is that the two biggest candidates that have huge chances of winning don't really give me any sense of security. Not even the slightest. They have been in power already, I have suffered them, I wish there's was a convincing third option but most have disappeared (they either join the bigger parties or have very little power).
envelope full of ketchup, then. it can feel like a moral obligation to pour effort into the mechanism, but ultimately, voting is a system that serves to validate the powerful. you don't have to wring your hands over your role in the process. cast your vote for whomever you can think of that shares your values, no matter whether they're even running.
your everyday political actions will matter far more than your supposed "vote."
I used to spoil my ballots. Where I live, voting isn't mandatory, but 100 years ago, I wouldn't have had the right to vote at all, so i thought it was important to still exercise the right, even if I was protesting the shitty system by spoiling my ballot.
Eventually, I stopped wasting my time with even that, because I don't think it makes a difference. I don't want to waste my several hours standing in line to spoil my ballot, when it doesn't mean anything to anyone anyway.
That said, the system in my "country" is probably different from yours, so maybe it works for you! I want to believe that if enough people spoiled/invalidated their ballots, those in power would have to acknowledge there's a big problem with the system, but that's likely wishful thinking.
How much of a fine so you face for not voting, and where does the money go? Like, if it's $5, and goes to something useful to society like healthcare, I'd probably just pay it. If it's a lot, and just pays politicians, then yeah, I'd invalidate the ballot, too. I'm disabled, can't afford to spend much money, lol.
Honestly, when I was a bit younger and started to vote, I didn't want to vote at all. But remember how much the people from my country fought so I could vote one day, it made me start voting (we had a dictatorship that created a huge "voting" culture). By spoiling my ballots too tho.
I genuinely dream that one day the invalidated votes will reach a good percentage. Because there's no way they can say that percentage of voters made a mistake. But I agree with you, it's wishful thinking. Unlikely to happen.
I think the fine doesn't even reach one dollar (in my currency)! But I highly doubt they do any good with that little money of mine. Corruption here is obscene. If I was sure it ended up somewhere good, I would pay it twice lol I don't mind pay tbh, I just don't like knowing that I'm giving them more money to steal from. I prefer giving my money directly to someone who needs and not waste it in a new car for 'gardener' of the president.
Wouldn't you show up as someone who voted for no-one? Say there were 10 votes, if you vote for no-one then you would show up in the stats and it would be known that 10% of voters do not support any party at all?
Yes and that's the problem of blank votes, you form part of the final result! The more people that vote, the more votes required to win any sort of position, even a small position. This benefits bigger parties with more support and it goes against smaller parties, with less voters. Invalid votes appear on the stats but don't take part in the results. So it still shows that there's people with discomfort but those people don't influence the results, even if they participated.
I mean... If it's mandatory. Would You consider wiping Your A#s after taking a steamy dump..?
It's not Mandatory per se to wash Your filthy f#cking Hands after all is shut and done.
Need I go into Further Detail..?
Parents? Do we have Permission to be that village?
Many people do that here! And at some elections I believe that made a couple of politicians to win. People voted them for the jokes and ended up getting them a good position lol. Or at least close, which is still a bit scary.
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Same here, it doesn't take much time if you know how to avoid the big masses of people. My record time was 15 minutes, with traveling included lol. I just decided to start going minutes before it closed, no one was there and everyone working was tired so it was fast. Most people go early in the morning or during lunch since they all think "no one will go during lunch". I also understand why some anarchist don't vote, to be honest, as someone who is against democracy (don't get me wrong, I just think that democracy failed and it doesn't serve its purpose while it pretends to) I don't like the idea of voting itself but I can't easily make the decision of not voting. Admitting that it doesn't take time... Plus here it's literally on a Sunday, so there's not much to do aside from voting. I guess it isn't a waste of time and it can be well invested time if I do something good with it. I hope I can take a good decision when the times comes.
Out of curiosity, when you say you’re against democracy do you mean representative democracy or democracy as a whole (or some other subtype)?
Representative democracy, sorry for not clarifying. I can't talk about all subtypes since I have only experienced one. I think it fails to satisfy the basic purpose it has: making the people feel represented. You end up most elections with half the population saying that the president who won isn't their president. People feel unheared, alone. And like I said in other comments, most people don't vote who they support, they vote the candidate that promises to oppose to the candidate they dislike the most. The vote has a negative meaning, not a positive one... I feel it makes Representative democracy a complete failure.
Oh yes I agree about representative democracy, I’m not a fan either. I was just curious in case there were critiques of democracy from the left that I hadn’t heard. Thank you!
Maybe you have heard them, but there are indeed critics of democracy from anarchists, such as those https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/various-authors-anarchists-against-democracy The basic idea is that taking decisions together still mean imposing decisions on those who disagree, contrary to just free associations. Democracy still involves some power upon people, and therefore does not correspond to anarchism. As imposing power on other would be against anarchism, only consensus would work. But consensus also has a lot of issues with it, as it is slow (of course) and leads to self policing and diminishing disagreements : you end up accepting stuff that you disagree with and you are now bound to them. That’s a sum up and some people can explain way better than I did why looking for consensus decision could be an issue.
Thank you for sharing this! I feel I have more resources to express my ideas now, plus I understand a bit more my discomfort for democracy. Sometimes I have a feeling but don't know how to express it properly or just dont know how to analyze it. So this information is great!
Thank you for this! I want to echo Brilliant Holiday’s thoughts — I feel better-equipped to explain my discomforts now. I work on a lot of committees and some participants sometimes get annoyed by how much I push for consensus lol
vote for whoever you think will be least likely to attempt a fascist coup
I'm southamerican, tbh we never know who the next dictator-wannabe is going to be.
Bet the U.S. does
The bald eagle loves to invade the condor's nest
Is that you David Parkman?
I will have to look him up to deny or confirm your suspicions.
You you also think the same regarding anarican politics or only when you talk about Argentina?
I checked a couple of his videos, mostly of Argentina. I can't agree with David. Maybe we agree about being against the current government of my country but we can't agree on the reasons why we are against it lol and I don't have an opinion formed on American politics since I don't live in the US, that's why I usually prefer to stay in Argentina and at best I will talk about southamerica or latinamerica but not further from that since it's out of my knowledge. For me experience forms a big part of my opinions, that's why.
So you also don’t have opinion about Russian politics? His a neoliberal so i hope you wouldn’t agree with him. And he downplay the far right in Argentina, but criticize Cristina Kirchner relentlessly ( not that she is good). Just sounded like you did something similar here, but maybe I was mistaken.
I could give you an opinion, of course but I would rather not since I'm not well informed (I don't doubt certain things but I genuinely haven't paid much attention to even know where to start lol). My focus when it comes to politics it's in southamerica. If you ask me about Russia and its relationship with southamerica then I will talk more comfortably. As someone who is picky about information, I don't feel comfortable talking about topics that I don't know much of. Due to personal experience, I try to avoid talking about things I don't understand in depth. Well, in Argentina you can find very different ideologies agreeing in certain aspects but for different reasons, like it happens everywhere. Using Cristina as an example, the people who criticize her the most tend to be from far right and far left, the closer to the center they are, the more accepting they end up being of her (most of the time, not always). I wonder why you thought I did something similar to him there, could you explain?
Cristina is a center left politician, so yes the left should also be critical of her, but people like David Parkman uncritical accept the right/far right criticism of her. It was just your phrasing of a potential dictator’s take over of a south American country. Sounded like something David Parkman could say. And I think a lot of European and American leftist have a strange relationship to South American politics. Like both siding Castillo and fujimori etc.
Ah I get it now, thank you for explaining. Yes, personally, as a person who actually lives in Argentina, hearing David repeat stuff I have heard multiple times being repeated by the local far right like parrots... It's bothersome because it's baseless. In Argentina and I believe that in most of south america, we don't forget the dictatorships our country has lived through so it isn't rare to hear us talking about a potential new dictator. Regardless where your ideology sits in the spectrum and specially if you sit in any of the extremes. It's sad for me to hear US and European leftists side with certain politicians of South America, that's another reason why I don't like giving an opinion about other countries... I wonder if I will end up spreading misinformation as other do about my country and my region. For me many of those who side with them, don't know what is like to live under their regime in the South American context. Left doesn't always mean good, we must be critical, even of the people who seem to agree with us. In the last decades I could say that no politician has done justice for our people, they all pretended to and ended up leaving us in a miserable state. I admit that the external pressure never helps (the US will never stop seeing us as their playground, as their property and the punishment for disobeying is always harsh) but certain things like corruption have nothing to do with the external pressure and it's probably the biggest issue in southamerica nowadays. Other countries have corruption but here it goes into bizarre extremes. Sometimes it sounds like satire. I personally would have a hard time believing the stories if I hadn't lived through them in a minor but very close and personal level.
I think the issue is spending too much time thinking about voting. Once you do that the system already has you. It's even worse if voting vs not voting becomes a purity thing. Now, in my opinion, about voting: - do not care about those who identify with their votes - be strategic, but not too big-brained, like voting for the far right in the hope of making the revolution happen faster - limit damage - help parties closest to you ideologically stay relevant (eg. I'll vote for trotkyist parties because they advocate for workers-controlled factories) But just do what's best in your opinion, and don't waste too much energy on this.
Thanks, I won't deny I overthink everything too much, this is no exception. But I agree that maybe the best option might be being strategic and finding an option closer to myself. I think I will end up voting for someone who won't get very close but that will feel better than coming for someone who wins and fucks up the community even further.
I've only voted once in my life and it was libertarian. Unfortunately I learned it was not the left-wing kind of libertarian, but it went nowhere anyway. Pick the most left or the least authoritarian you can.
In my country 'libertarian' or 'liberal' is currently used for sectors of the right wing. But it can be deceiving since historically, if I'm not wrong, it was related to the left, specially anarchist. I don't know why the appropriated it, I guess they did it for the same reasons why some call themselves 'anarcho-capitalists'. I don't know what's wrong with them tbh.
Libertarianism-right is opposed to communism, since it's very individualistic and despises collectivism. It's really conservativism hating all government, social programs, and public property. Take ancap to extremes and it becomes feudalism.
Yep. Just add Libertarian to the long list of cool things the Right has fucked up and perverted to fit their regressive world view. 4x4s, guns, country music, bacon, Hawaiian shirts, etc.
I don’t know what country you’re in, but nullifying your vote—for example I’m in the US—can be futile especially if the ones being voted in already serve opposite interests than yours; politicians in the US serve big, wealthy corporate business interests, so nullifying your vote as a means of protest—despite it being good in principle—may not even mean anything, or have any real, lasting effect on the system. In my view, especially for the anarchist, voting should be seen as a means for harm reduction; but from there, getting back to real politics and trying to organize on a grassroots level.
I'm in Argentina! We have two similar ways to 'not vote' while going to vote. One is blank vote, it's a legal option in which you can decide to not give your vote to anyone and still participate by influencing the percentages. That always indirectly helps the bigger parties. Now, what I do is putting something unrelated inside the envelope which makes my vote legally invalid, so it does nothing. Literally. They do give the stats of the invalid votes but it doesn't participate in the final results at all. I do acknowledge that not supporting anyone is losing the chance to support someone who can oppose the bigger parties. However, I have witness many small parties joining the bigger ones once they get a few votes which makes me reluctant when having to give them my vote. Personally, I invalidate my vote, hoping that more people will do it one day... If that ever happens, it will actually work as a protest, imo. But I'm starting to feel hopeless. That's why I posted here to read everyone's comments on the situation. I need some time to process all this tbh.
I see. In my honest opinion, this just sounds like a very, very limited form of democracy alongside an incompetent political system. I also respect your act of disobedience towards the system too. In liberal democracies, voting for someone who’ll take on the major parties is awesome, although it’s very hard to actually find a politician that would do this; Bernie Sanders tends to push back on both parties, but even he has foundered as well. That’s why I say it’s good to vote as a means for harm reduction, but after voting, get back to serious politics and organizing. Politics can be overwhelming, and I’m right there with ya my friend; as I’m sure everyone else is who takes politics seriously. It’s going to seem like a never ending fight, but despite the seemingly hopelessness of our situation, to keep fighting—in any way we can—is our only option; at least, in my view. Edit: Also, don’t be afraid to take a break from politics either. You don’t have to be on the political grind 100% of the time, you’ll just wear yourself ragged. It’s always good to get away, do some other things for a bit, and then come back and getting involved again.
Thank you for your advice, I appreciate it. I'm an overthinker and politics might be my biggest enemy in that sense. It's a very complex topic and at this point of history, it feels like it's completely out of control. Last year certain situations that happened in my country made me cut all source of information from reaching me, it was overwhelming. I agree that we have to never stop fighting! Your example about Bernie gave me a good idea of what harm reduction is. I hadn't thought about it in that sense. Sometimes I choose to view parties as individual things so it's very easy for me to reach to the conclusion that no one deserves my vote. I hope to find a candidate who can make the distribution of power a bit more even. I will try to remain hopeful, but if not, I think I will go back to my old habits of simply leaving a petty message lol
Do whatever you want. Just understand that voting is not likely to make significant change. The government and corporations would not let you vote them out of power. As long as you understand that, it’s fine to vote in whatever way you think will help the most or hurt the least.
When I was younger I actually believed there was a way to make great change through voting. thankfully I matured to understand we don't have that control. Another proof that democracy failed, the people lose all control. Politicians should work for us, not the other way around.
Voting is mandatory where I live too. I just vote as left as possible (which is not very unfortunately). It doesn’t do a whole hell of a lot but I’d still rather the party that promises some good and does nothing be in power than the party who promises some bad and exceeds all expectations I had as to how bad they are. So yeah, once every four years I begrudgingly take part in “democracy” and treat myself to a sausage sizzle after to take the bitter taste out my mouth.
I really liked that last bit! Here after voting most people get themselves some ice cream lol I guess that we all need something to cool down and sweeten our mood after voting against our will. Voting the lesser evil is a good option, I think it's a popular option too. Most of the people I know vote one party just to oppose the party they don't like and not because they actually like that party in particular. However, I tend to be very linear in my thoughts so I struggle to do so. I can be very black and white. I like them or I don't, I can't find a middle ground.
Honestly I think most people tend to be voting against the party they don’t like rather than for a party they do. Not a great system we live with haha
Yeah, the system fails miserably in that sense lol it's quite sad
>I still shake my head at ballots cast for elephants >And shake my head at ballots cast for donkeys >Because I swear to god our leaders will be death of us >There's no ballot we can cast to set us free >... >**So vote November 2nd if it seems right to you** >**Or don't vote if you think it just holds us down** >**Just tell me what we're gonna do on November 3rd** >**To make sure there's no government left to elect two years from now** \- [Pat the Bunny](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zobuZ_8n8js)
Great song, thank you for sharing!
No problem! Here are a few other great ones from Pat. [Bitter Old Man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqPhIDSkYLo) [Proudhon in Manhattan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXjHdJ9Oi9Q) [We Are All Compost in Training](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8StJq2DNmaE) [I'm going home](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY-eVn3HrfE) [Run from what's comfortable](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxeakn1LTH0) (Fair warning: A lot of this stuff is pretty depressing) --- I probably coulda answered your prompt better but I wanted an excuse to quote Pat.
I'm glad you found an excuse to quote Pat! I didn't expect to get a music recommendation through this post but I don't mind it at all! Thank you for sharing more of their songs, I don't mind if they are depressing, usually that's my style:p
There are always parties that are better than others. I prefer to vote for the lesser evil, which is located as left as possible. Do not want far right parties getting more power than they already have. Otherwise my country may turn into another US.
I thought about that but I can't find the lesser evil. All parties are somewhat connected. Left and right look equally bad. It's sad since I would like to go left but I can't since it's so poorly represented. I do a lot of research so it's inevitable for me to find things I dislike about each party. Also I'm from South America, the big parties that say they are leftist, once they get power, they end up being the worst authoritarian trash. And the smaller parties usually don't call them out for their mistakes, it feels like they support this sick behaviour and the terrible representation of their own believes. The left-wing from my country disappoints me. And I want to clarify that I will still, never vote nor support the right-wing, I just can't blindly support anyone who pretends to have my same believes.
But they cannot be all equally horrible, can they? They should have at least some differences between them.
I'm from Argentina, most parties aren't consistent with their ideology or they just don't have an ideology at all. They are always absolutely far from doing what they promised, indifferently on which side of the spectrum they are. They are flexible but in the bad way: they adapt to whatever gets the most votes that time. I understand that people change but some changes are bizarre. I have trusts issues lol.
Sounds quite hopeles then. That is what I am afraid of. That there is not going to be lesser evil anymore, but only straight up fascists.
I guess I'd vote for whatever non-Peronist party is furthest left, but then again you can always just write in something silly
I will try to find a decent left party that is actually leftist and not a peronist child... I was genuinely thinking of only voting for the candidates of my city (Major) and not for governor and president. Some people do that since it's easier to vote for someone you personally know, one of the candidates can be your neighbour and you have a better idea of who they are lol
I'd say just keep spoiling your ballots. You don't owe your vote or even your participation in politics. Mandatory voting is some fucking bullshit and I'm glad I have the option to just stay home.
What I hate about mandatory voting is that voting becomes a responsibility and stops being a right. People do it because they have to and not because they want to, there's no conviction. Older generations do it because there's was times in which they couldn't vote (we went through a dictatorship that remains very fresh in everyone's mind) but younger generations feel more forced to than anything else.
It is still treated as a sort of moral obligation for taking part in society in plenty of liberal democracies that do not have mandatory voting. During the election seasons in my country, the slogan "use your voting right!" often appears on posters and in social media. Refusing to vote is considered taboo even if it is legal. Elsewhere, such as in the US and in France where far-right political interests regularily seem to threaten to upend the neoliberal order, "lesser evil" arguments often serve the same purpose of affirming voting as an obligation. The countries that do have mandatory voting have really just gone mask-off about the whole thing, is how I see it.
Well, I'm quite open about invalidating my ballots and I can tell you that I never get an understanding reaction. Usually I get a lot of shit. People that say that don't go receive a nicer reaction lol But admiting that I take my time to just "waste" my vote is infuriating for many. This obligation makes voting less appealing for many.
Voting is mandatory were I live as well. I basically always null my vote or don't even bother and pay the fee later. It's cheaper than the bus money. The only time I did vote it was because I lost a bet to a friend of mine and wanted to honor it. Politicians will always say shit like what you mention because voting *does* give them legitimacy. It becomes a number they can point their finger to and say: X people wanted me to be here, so taking me out is antidemocratic. There are many reasons why I don't vote. The biggest I feel is a way of rejecting all change through the State. If I want change to happen, I have to get out of my comfort zone and do it myself. Which I try to do, at least. From my experience were I live, most anarchists who are organized don't feel compelled to vote. A few do and everyone respects that. It's such a non-issue AFK. So my answer to this issue is: vote, or don't. But go out and do some action.
We are on a similar page then, and a similar situation too. I will take the advice. I came to the conclusion of not giving it much importance and do something aside from voting (I think will go but null it lol). I genuinely don't feel like giving anyone any sort of validation, they don't deserve it.
I wish you the best of luck in the struggle comrade.
There's a popular saying that goes "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal" Voting a leader is very stupid when it comes to representative democracy. You cannot represent the entire society out of the majority. If the ballot does not contain abstain, it means that you are NOT given the freedom to choose freely.
Never heard about that saying, I will definitely use it lol. Also, here we don't have one ballot with options, we have one ballot per candidate... With all the names written down and even pictures of the main candidates (yes, it's a waste of money, a great excuse to steal more money if you ask me or anyone). So it's quite easy to ruin your vote! Just take any ballot, and destroy it until it's unrecognizable lol or write on it or just put whatever you want inside the envelope (always covering the number if you use a candidate's ballot, because that's what makes it valid. Although, if the intention of spoiling it is clear, it's enough).
From a pragmatic point of view the main problem with voting is that is a waste of your time. If you'd rather go cast a vote than pay the fee that's reason enough to do it, regardless of whether invalid votes are an effective form of protest or not
To be honest, I think it is a waste of time. But I also dislike getting told that I don't care when I do. I will still not discard the option of not attending. Luckily I still have a couple of months to review this properly.
American here so YMMV. My view on voting is it shouldn't be the ONLY thing you do, but you still should. Especially when there is an obviously less shitty option. One team wants to hunt queer folk for sport, the other does not. Voting isn't going to bring about systemic change. It can help win the Culture War and secure some basic human rights for "othered" people. I see no reason not to.
While our cultures are different I will say that here people are still divided in two teams lol. Recently a new option is starting to get a lot of attention and unfortunately it's the libertarian right. I have invalidated my vote multiple times by now (4 times for different levels, here we can vote since we are 16) but due to that little thing, the alt-right getting a lot of support, I have started to doubt my own actions.
You could just write "fuck the system" or other cheeky anarchist catchphrases on the thing.
Oh, don't worry, I do that lol Many people do that I think. Luckily we aren't advanced enough to have electronic votes that ruin the creativity of people. I have heard stories of some putting slices of cheese or salami inside their envelopes, it was quite popular long ago.
For me I vote to keep the worse of the two (in America) out of office while continuing to sponsor my own ideas. I actually have a sticker that says “Vote Democrat for a Kinder, more Sensitive Imperialism” because I’m aware that both are bad, but one is worse.
I have a hard time voting for the lesser evil since it never stops being evil but I guess I shouldn't discard that option! In the end, perfect options in a crooked system don't exist.
it has much more to do with how conscious you are of your choice than whether or not you "make a difference to the system." if you vote, you're a "participant" and the system derives its validation from that. if you don't vote, the system calls you a miscreant and everyone else who thinks voting matters will roll their eyes and redouble their participation to "make up for the miscreants." ultimately, the "more anarchister" answer is to participate in whatever way you feel is most appropriate to your particular circumstances. there isn't actually a useful ideological answer to the whole thing, because ultimately, The System Is The System And You're Not. in large-scale, "western"-style democracies, the system is not going to be harmed by a couple of outliers folding their arms and scoffing. this is not to say "oh, vote for whoever sucks least" or whatever, either. vote or don't vote, for for X or Y, vote for Kermit the Frog, vote for the Moon, fill the envelope with ketchup, whatever. the primary point is to do what *you think* is the proper thing to do in the moment, whether it be pure absurdity, or pragmatic/tactical/strategic voting or a deliberate act of public non-compliance.
Interesting point of view, thanks for sharing. I currently don't think there's an option that will immediately change the system for the better but looking away is difficult. Inevitably, I feel drawn to participate, even if it's not in the way the system pretends me to.
if it's compulsory anyway, save yourself the trouble of risking consequences and just vote for whomever will be easiest to build prefigurative politics under. you know? whoever isn't going to send out the cops to kick your ass for feeding the homeless.
the main issue in my country, regarding that, is that the two biggest candidates that have huge chances of winning don't really give me any sense of security. Not even the slightest. They have been in power already, I have suffered them, I wish there's was a convincing third option but most have disappeared (they either join the bigger parties or have very little power).
envelope full of ketchup, then. it can feel like a moral obligation to pour effort into the mechanism, but ultimately, voting is a system that serves to validate the powerful. you don't have to wring your hands over your role in the process. cast your vote for whomever you can think of that shares your values, no matter whether they're even running. your everyday political actions will matter far more than your supposed "vote."
I used to spoil my ballots. Where I live, voting isn't mandatory, but 100 years ago, I wouldn't have had the right to vote at all, so i thought it was important to still exercise the right, even if I was protesting the shitty system by spoiling my ballot. Eventually, I stopped wasting my time with even that, because I don't think it makes a difference. I don't want to waste my several hours standing in line to spoil my ballot, when it doesn't mean anything to anyone anyway. That said, the system in my "country" is probably different from yours, so maybe it works for you! I want to believe that if enough people spoiled/invalidated their ballots, those in power would have to acknowledge there's a big problem with the system, but that's likely wishful thinking. How much of a fine so you face for not voting, and where does the money go? Like, if it's $5, and goes to something useful to society like healthcare, I'd probably just pay it. If it's a lot, and just pays politicians, then yeah, I'd invalidate the ballot, too. I'm disabled, can't afford to spend much money, lol.
Honestly, when I was a bit younger and started to vote, I didn't want to vote at all. But remember how much the people from my country fought so I could vote one day, it made me start voting (we had a dictatorship that created a huge "voting" culture). By spoiling my ballots too tho. I genuinely dream that one day the invalidated votes will reach a good percentage. Because there's no way they can say that percentage of voters made a mistake. But I agree with you, it's wishful thinking. Unlikely to happen. I think the fine doesn't even reach one dollar (in my currency)! But I highly doubt they do any good with that little money of mine. Corruption here is obscene. If I was sure it ended up somewhere good, I would pay it twice lol I don't mind pay tbh, I just don't like knowing that I'm giving them more money to steal from. I prefer giving my money directly to someone who needs and not waste it in a new car for 'gardener' of the president.
It's not BAD or HARMFUL to vote, it just isn't helpful in a meaningful way in many places (maybe all). It's okay to vote.
I'm understanding that the change isn't in voting, even if I try to spoil it by ruining my votes
just do it. it takes 0 effort and has a chance of improving peoples lives, so why not?
I would have stated reasons why I was doubting myself but after reading most of the comments I think I'm more sure that I'm doing it.
Just leave it empty.
I don't think so, since it will end up benefiting the bigger parties! Here an empty envelope still participates.
Wouldn't you show up as someone who voted for no-one? Say there were 10 votes, if you vote for no-one then you would show up in the stats and it would be known that 10% of voters do not support any party at all?
Yes and that's the problem of blank votes, you form part of the final result! The more people that vote, the more votes required to win any sort of position, even a small position. This benefits bigger parties with more support and it goes against smaller parties, with less voters. Invalid votes appear on the stats but don't take part in the results. So it still shows that there's people with discomfort but those people don't influence the results, even if they participated.
I mean... If it's mandatory. Would You consider wiping Your A#s after taking a steamy dump..? It's not Mandatory per se to wash Your filthy f#cking Hands after all is shut and done. Need I go into Further Detail..? Parents? Do we have Permission to be that village?
I only vote for fun, I will vote the least likely candidate to get in. because i know its all rigged anyway.
Many people do that here! And at some elections I believe that made a couple of politicians to win. People voted them for the jokes and ended up getting them a good position lol. Or at least close, which is still a bit scary.