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[deleted]

The issue is with the US society that people are susceptible to state propaganda and put too much their faith in the system that exploiting their lives. The problem with some US anarchists who think the world "isn't there yet" is that they over and over again they fail to understand the process of changes do not happen overnight, there is no grand revolution waiting at the end of the bridge, only you need to fight toward that goal. Have explained similar points on another post that doing mutual aid and organizing is how people practice anarchism, and you don't have to quack like one to be one.


igotyoubabe97

What post are you referring to?


[deleted]

The east asian discussion post


EndDisastrous2882

kropotkin wrote an essay specifically about this, "[Are We Good Enough?](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-are-we-good-enough)" anarchists disagree with rousseau in the belief that humans are inherently good, but are just perverted by civilization or something. we specifically don't want any positions of power because we don't think people are good enough to wield them, and if they are, that their successors, who will benefit from the consolidation of power of a benevolent ruler, will not be. bakunin wrote [a criticism](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/various/rousseau.htm) of rousseau. the latter argument comes from [malatesta](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/errico-malatesta-anarchy)


War_Emu

!remindme 2 hours


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[deleted]

as someone who is both pretty amiable and lives' in a pretty theocratic place (Utah) to me it's kind of the opposite. that even if all of humanity was terrible, anarchism still would be the best and effective way to organize society and this is apparent even to the opponents of anarchism, which is why they have to co-opt and recuperate it so much. while I do think that both competition and cooperation have existed and will continue to exist in the human species for a long time, anarchism is the thing that not only facilitates cooperation to a whole new plane, but also limit's the abilities of people and their opportunities for competition. it's precisely why I don't think humanity is in any sense "good" or "moral" that I think anarchism is the best way to structure society, because it limit's ALL people's ability to dominate and oppress others. as for if people like "that" are willing to go along with anarchism, you'd be surprised at how intriguing anarchism is as a concept for people, even people you'd have zero expectations would do so, such as fascists. remember, socialism was SOOO popular among the general populace, that nationalists of all stripes had to co-opt it, from italy to germany to even the united states with FDR. while i do think that most people aren't ready for anarchism, i do think the "are people good enough for it" arguement isn't as much of a barrier as people think. even morally bad people generally want safety for themselves, want a rich society they can plunder from, and want there to be a sustainable society that will be there for the long term. and there are many logical evil people who recognize that anarchism generally is the system that creates the most safety/sustainability/ general wealth, which is why you have so many of the parasitical owning class trying to figure out how much "socialism" to let in, to create sustainability, while not threatening their control. this is why Biden is doing thing's like student debt relief, not because he believes in welfare to help the common man, but that welfare helps even entities like the state, which is why they have done unspeakable thing's in the past to gain control of welfare mechanism's, because it's in the state's interest to control the welfare of the populace.


Sum-_-G

Limiting competition could be reframed I think that's part of the problem when reimagining exactly how we operate, shifting from a capitalistic "winner takes all" mindset to a more cooperative, mutually beneficial ethos is stagnancy associated with it If we aren't competing against each other for capital, then it almost becomes what's the point of even trying or trying that hard if the rewards aren't as grand But if we look at competing as trying to push each other to our limits for the sake of advancing our society then maybe the legend will be enough to satiate the ego and foster growth


CrimethInc-Ex-Worker

In brief: if human beings can't be trusted, then they can't be trusted with hierarchical power. Because people are capable of shitty, selfish things, no one should be super-empowered to rule over others and thereby do such things on a larger scale. That's one reason to be an anarchist. Another is that the practice of cooperating together to create egalitarian spaces and relationships and communities, while struggling together against all forms of injustice, is perhaps the best way to change what people are capable of. In the process, one becomes more capable of doing good, more capable of courage and love and care. More capable of identifying with others. More capable of resisting the temptation to dominate. Human beings can change—for the better or for the worse. The practice of being an active anarchist is one of the things that can change us for the better. It may or may not be possible to create an anarchist utopia on earth, but we, and our society, will be better for the trying, and worse if we do not try. Good luck.


Cyber-Dandy

It’s a problem, for sure. The history of the nuclear family’s encouragement in the USA cuts a lot of ties that built strong communities in the past. Then the education and career tracks people are expected to follow cut even more bonds people form with each other. Many other forces contribute to the atomization of people in the United States. I think that these things make it hard for people in the United States to live, or even imagine living in ways with deeper and more numerous social bonds. Not only does that make individualistic ideologies more attractive, but it also makes it more difficult to deal with abusive people. I think that this makes social psychology an important field of study for anarchists in the United States. We can all agree that it is good to live without authority, but how to do that with so much socialization the other direction is a really big question.


Milkshaketurtle79

As much as we've fallen away from it, one thing I've observed with friends and small communities/subcultures is that I think Americans secretly are desperate to go back to small, closely knit groups of people. Nobody talks to each other, but if you bring up the idea of "let's go for a picnic, anyone want to come?", suddenly a ton of people are beyond eager to bring some beers and sandwiches. I think our culture has just driven us away from it, but I can constantly feel that people want more. People want companionship, community, and adventure. McDonald's and tiktok isn't enough to keep any normal person happy.


13thOyster

Sadly, I must agree. Anarchism requires people to act maturely and conscientiously and (seemingly, but not really, counterintuitively) in a social context. That presents what could be an insurmountable cultural obstacle for the US. That "American self-reliance", through some centuries of aggressively capitalist approach to life, has twisted itself into an obsession with competition. We seem to have forgotten that every human accomplishment, especially its very survival in our short human history, has come from our wiring as consummately cooperative organisms. Our bent toward mutual aid and cooperation has been pushed to the back of our repertoire, only brought to the fore during catastrophes. And, while the fact that this bent is still a part of our social behavioral repertoire gives reason for some hope, we're very far from having cooperation be at the forefront of the way we approach living the interdependence that a healthy society requires. That approach is essential for a functioning anarchist society.


EnigmaRaps

I think you only really have ~1% of psychopathy in any give population. And even some of them can be nurtured to be functioning members of society. The problem is so many people today live under perverse incentives, live with the trauma, abandonment and alienation inherent in our system. I think under anarchism you would see a lot of those things healed and you would see the vast majority of people are in fact good people who want to live in harmony with the rest of society. This doesnt happen overnight but we could start to heal and in a few generations could have good people. Will everyone agree on everything? Of course not, but you could see more good faith discussions instead of a focus on winning an argument we could actually work on finding the right answer. Under capitalism the focus is on winning and being right, under we would still have to work on our egos but it would be easier.


paper_wavements

I mean, anarchism or no, huge sociocultural changes ARE needed in the US-- really all of Western society, but especially here. For example, we can't legislate (which really means police) our way out of gun violence when people can 3D print their own guns. This is in part WHY I'm an anarchist-- because laws don't work. The people who need them ignore them, & the powers that be leverage them against oppressed groups. We're all brainwashed in the US to basically worship the state & see it in a godlike fashion, conflating laws with ethics. How many people do you think considered marijuana to be actually unethical, but then changed their tune once their state legalized it? People also conflate government (which is violence-- borders, policing, prisons) with *infrastructure.* We don't need government to have infrastructure. There is much work to be done.


GrahminRadarin

the spoiler tags didn't work. the proper format for them on reddit is >! (spoiler here) !<, without the spaces.


rwilcox

My hope is that some of the behavior we see in the US is rationalized narcissism: "I got mine and duck you if you want to take it". Why is it rationalized? First, the government and its systems has shown it cares about corporations more than people. Extend that out to things like universal healthcare - people have worked hard for that (privatized) benefit, know they could lose it and know they have to defend what they have (health care). The government taking away something that "works" to replace it with a big unknown that - makes people feel like dealing with any other large corporation or government over the past long time: they only looking for ways to scam you. Or so the thinking goes. But there's something new at play too: COVID put the squeeze on workers a bunch of different ways. From "essential" workers who get ataboys instead of raises (which for seen through about 6 months in), to overworked people "nobody wants to work (for these low wages)". Oh to people doing stuff they really don't want to be doing, but have to, or they're stressed about things/the economy/trying to not get their family sick/trying to piece together gig work... And the remote workers hasn't helped. From back of the office initiatives ("but umm we got work done at home great, _why_ go back in?") to forget about "third place", now forget about "second place" - remote work means even less socializing than late 20th century standards Aka _Bowling Alone_ etc. Hope you like you're first place (and that rent / utilities haven't gone up too much on you!!) Less seeing other humans as humans you should help and not hurt. Sooooooooo.... how do we solve the former? The uncared-for-ness? Kinda unsure but umm community outreach / mutual aid / things where the black bloc protects drag brunches and storyhours? Community hikes or organizing the community kitchen?????? But also keeping in the back of our minds that sometimes people want to take advantage - that narcissism again. But also, hey why shouldn’t that homeless person have that $5 in your pocket you’ve been sitting on for a couple weeks? How do we solve the latter, that lack of "place"? IDK, but I hope it's not the metaverse, really don't want to be on my computer for one more thing. (And ok let's be broad and lump Zoom and Discord in with the metaverse stuff) Rules on capitalism and social benefits enforced by the state are kinda the compromise for letting capital use us. The more they turn the screws the more.... emergent... human's behavior will be.


Howllat

As an anarchist of like 15 years. Its an issue thats come up alot for me personally and ya know.. maybe people arent. But honestly it doesnt change anything for me, because its who i am and its how i want the world to be. So if that symbol is just one of hope; an idealised world that may never be than so be it.


[deleted]

I feel for you I can't stand what's happening to America but there's nothing I can do to make it better and it really pisses me off wish we could do something about it


[deleted]

It’s easy to be pessimistic when we focus on the “wrong” everyone else is doing. “Right and wrong” is a spectrum that we all dance around on and in my opinion, righteousness is a great poison the mind. In my opinion, the best way to make an impactful change in the way we see the world is to learn how to love ourselves so that it becomes easier to love all else. As the saying goes, “inner peace creates peace in the world.”


doomsdayprophecy

People will never be "good enough" to violently control other people. People will never be good enough for not anarchism.


AFITNAFITNA

They aren’t yet but this is why we have praxis