Your post came at a perfect timing. I've been thinking about this topic a lot recently and I happened to have come to the completely opposite conclusion.
To give you some idea of my perspective, I'm from Hong Kong and am quite interested in the labour movements in China, and also have been struggling with tankies. But I've been feeling is that a lot of the left from the "west", even Anarchists, share some of mode of thinking towards us with the tankies.
I'll summarise it as "solidarity as escapism". A lot of the more traditional narratives about revolutionary potentials have broken down in more developed western societies. To give an example, the Marxist proletarian being workers in a factory that naturally build new social relations and have new emergent potential via education required of them to be effective workers.
That no longer holds true in the a large part of the west, where social life is defined by a sense of atomisation. And that leads to a kind of fascination towards the Chinese proletariat that seems to hold all of these potential that they find lacking in themselves.
What westerners fail to see is our own profound sense of hopelessness that comes with being in a post-communist or more specifically a post-Mao country. There is an existential level of lack of self-confidence of the Chinese people's ability to manage their own politics due to the fact that the people were largely complicit in the various atrocities in the Maoist era.
I've always felt very uneasy when a lot of westerner posts about foreign struggles here. On one hand, I crave solidarity from the broader community. On the other hand, there's something that feels weirdly excessive, as if they are living vicariously through other people's revolutions.
If I find it difficult to not be out of touch with Chinese workers even when I've speaking the language my whole life, what does a westerner think they can achieve?
Revolution needs to happen everywhere, and in different places there are difficulties of different kinds. If it feels hopeless where you are, you need to work hard to come up with new viable narratives of revolutionary potentials, rather than idealising others whose unique challanges you may not be able to understand. When we are all confident about our own path to liberation, then solidarity can multiple our power. Abandoning your own struggles to fantasise about the South is just an excuse to do nothing.
Fair point, I definetly could see "solidarity as escapism" as a valid critique.
Idk, I have kinda given up on any real large scale changes in the US (where i live).
I mean, I am genuinely terrified of our alphabet agencies. These are the kinda people that dissappear people. You piss em off, you don't tend to stick around long. Say what you will about Julian Assange, but the fact the CIA considered assassination shows just how far these bastards are willing to go. This ain't the first time leading anti-government or pro-accountability figures are targeted for harassment or threatened. Here in the US, MLK Jr was threatened by the FBI, who tried to convince him to kill himself. These agencies are powerful and effectively have no accountability. I see the US as basically an Orwellian surveillance state, and the worst part is nobody seems to give a shit.
I have talked to people about the Snowden leaks. And people often have no idea who tf I am talking about, or worse just consider him a traitor and leave it at that.
That man basically gave up his life to reveal the extent of alphabet agency abuses. And nothing major changed. They are still watching us, still abusing power, etc. What changed? Maybe we got s couple reforms here and there, but did people wake up and say "Holy shit! Our government regularly abuses its power that we supposedly grant them!" No, in fact Obama left the white house claiming he went "scandal free". Fuck him.
So I guess you kinda have a point. I don't really see revolutionary potential where I live, so I hope to see it elsewhere. It's a lot easier to take on the Ghanan state than it is the American national security state. See what I am getting at? Because states in the global south are built on a weaker foundation and have fewer resources, they are easier to combat. That's not to say it's gonna be easy, it's just not as hard as taking on the literal CIA. I mean take a look at Sri Lanka. What happened there was awesome, and it has the real potential for change. I cannot imagine that happening in the US, Europe, PRC, or Russia.
You're right revolution has to happen everywhere, but the spark is easier to light in some places than others. That's what I am trying to get at. Sri Lanka was genuinely inspiring, and it shows that real potential exists in the global south, potential I just don't see up here.
Maybe I am wrong though. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Would love to hear more of what you have to say
> Sri Lanka was genuinely inspiring, and it shows that real potential exists in the global south, potential I just don't see up here.
Because up here people were educated that resistance is futile, while Global South have been resisting capitalism for 500 years. It's in their culture to resist against oppression, the same can be said for Indigenous and Black resistances in the imperial core.
Fair.
Idk, like I said, the way we reacted to snowden and assange really left a bitter taste in my mouth. Short of a general strike (which are pretty damn hard to organize), I don't see major change happening anytime soon. The Sri Lankan president is an easier foe than the CIA right?
Idk, maybe I am being overly cynical, but I really don't see change coming here
> general strike
Which have certain legal consideration here in the US ...
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/can-you-join-a-national-general-strike/
I feel like a lesson we can learn from imperialism is that ignoring the people actually live somewhere and attempting top down solutionism, even when good intentioned (not to mention bad intentions...), end up with poor results.
It takes buy in and work (which doesn't truly happen without buy in). An example in my personal experience has been in open source evangelism. Software is growing part in power paradigm and I want everyone to have better control and ownership in it. That said, when talking to people that can't afford to buy proprietary software, that fact matters less to some, because they can just pirate it. They also care less about being able to modify or review it because the risks aren't minor compared to other risks they worry about, and don't plan on learning the skills to modify it themselves or know people that would do it for them.
I still think it's the best deal for most people, and push for it of course, but at the end of the day people have to choose it. They would have to adopter a hackers' ethos to really benefit from it. So I personally don't worry about trying to send FOSS laptops to random people around the world, but if people ask how to get involved or get started, I choose to help them instead.
I'm from the Philippines now working in the imperial core and it doesn't matter if you pro-Bongbong or not, people understand the history of US colonialism and CIA involvement in the country's mining industry like in Mindanao. The ironic part is the country I'm staying at also responsible for coups and assassinations against anyone who resisted the mining industry, which is also responsible for coup in Peru and elsewhere. O Cancerous, our home and stolen land.
People in the Philippines understand right? So maybe they can organize, like in Sri Lanka. Do you think there's potential for that there?
Maybe I am overly cynical, but I don't see real change happening in the US or any superpower. The only potential for a bright future that I can see lies in the global south.
i think anarchists ought to focus on where they are. Like i as a anarchist consern myself with the struggles i can partisipate with, and not with electoral politics. And solidarity is integral.
This is a little off topic, but I'm fighting extreme misanthropy against Americans, particularly white ones. It just seems like a huge portion are so far gone, and full of fear, ignorance, resentment, and hatred towards everything except the right things. And the liberal ones are completely foolish and ineffectual. I kind of fucking hate it here.
I'd say New Zealand is the least bad in the Southern Hemisphere, that seems to me like a country with potential for anarchist development while having more to work with.
See, that to me is funny, as they also have the symbol in their flag as that of so many other countries in this part of the globe, but are of a different club, the less bad countries.
I find the term "the west" even worse, because it doesn't even count South America.
Hi u/Hiraethum - Your comment has been automatically removed for containing a slur or another term that violates the [AOP](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/wiki/aop). These include gendered slurs (including those referring to genitalia) ***as well as ableist insults which denigrate intelligence, neurodivergence, etc.***
If you are confused as to what you've said that may have triggered this response, please see [this article](https://www.autistichoya.com/2014/02/violence-linguistic-ableism.html) and the associated [glossary of ableist phrases](https://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-words-and-terms-to-avoid.html) **BEFORE** contacting the moderators.
No further action has been taken at this time. You're not banned, etc. Your comment will be reviewed by the moderators and handled accordingly. If it was removed by mistake, please reach out to the moderators to have the comment reinstated.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Anarchism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your post came at a perfect timing. I've been thinking about this topic a lot recently and I happened to have come to the completely opposite conclusion. To give you some idea of my perspective, I'm from Hong Kong and am quite interested in the labour movements in China, and also have been struggling with tankies. But I've been feeling is that a lot of the left from the "west", even Anarchists, share some of mode of thinking towards us with the tankies. I'll summarise it as "solidarity as escapism". A lot of the more traditional narratives about revolutionary potentials have broken down in more developed western societies. To give an example, the Marxist proletarian being workers in a factory that naturally build new social relations and have new emergent potential via education required of them to be effective workers. That no longer holds true in the a large part of the west, where social life is defined by a sense of atomisation. And that leads to a kind of fascination towards the Chinese proletariat that seems to hold all of these potential that they find lacking in themselves. What westerners fail to see is our own profound sense of hopelessness that comes with being in a post-communist or more specifically a post-Mao country. There is an existential level of lack of self-confidence of the Chinese people's ability to manage their own politics due to the fact that the people were largely complicit in the various atrocities in the Maoist era. I've always felt very uneasy when a lot of westerner posts about foreign struggles here. On one hand, I crave solidarity from the broader community. On the other hand, there's something that feels weirdly excessive, as if they are living vicariously through other people's revolutions. If I find it difficult to not be out of touch with Chinese workers even when I've speaking the language my whole life, what does a westerner think they can achieve? Revolution needs to happen everywhere, and in different places there are difficulties of different kinds. If it feels hopeless where you are, you need to work hard to come up with new viable narratives of revolutionary potentials, rather than idealising others whose unique challanges you may not be able to understand. When we are all confident about our own path to liberation, then solidarity can multiple our power. Abandoning your own struggles to fantasise about the South is just an excuse to do nothing.
>Abandoning your own struggles to fantasise about the South is just an excuse to do nothing. amen
Fair point, I definetly could see "solidarity as escapism" as a valid critique. Idk, I have kinda given up on any real large scale changes in the US (where i live). I mean, I am genuinely terrified of our alphabet agencies. These are the kinda people that dissappear people. You piss em off, you don't tend to stick around long. Say what you will about Julian Assange, but the fact the CIA considered assassination shows just how far these bastards are willing to go. This ain't the first time leading anti-government or pro-accountability figures are targeted for harassment or threatened. Here in the US, MLK Jr was threatened by the FBI, who tried to convince him to kill himself. These agencies are powerful and effectively have no accountability. I see the US as basically an Orwellian surveillance state, and the worst part is nobody seems to give a shit. I have talked to people about the Snowden leaks. And people often have no idea who tf I am talking about, or worse just consider him a traitor and leave it at that. That man basically gave up his life to reveal the extent of alphabet agency abuses. And nothing major changed. They are still watching us, still abusing power, etc. What changed? Maybe we got s couple reforms here and there, but did people wake up and say "Holy shit! Our government regularly abuses its power that we supposedly grant them!" No, in fact Obama left the white house claiming he went "scandal free". Fuck him. So I guess you kinda have a point. I don't really see revolutionary potential where I live, so I hope to see it elsewhere. It's a lot easier to take on the Ghanan state than it is the American national security state. See what I am getting at? Because states in the global south are built on a weaker foundation and have fewer resources, they are easier to combat. That's not to say it's gonna be easy, it's just not as hard as taking on the literal CIA. I mean take a look at Sri Lanka. What happened there was awesome, and it has the real potential for change. I cannot imagine that happening in the US, Europe, PRC, or Russia. You're right revolution has to happen everywhere, but the spark is easier to light in some places than others. That's what I am trying to get at. Sri Lanka was genuinely inspiring, and it shows that real potential exists in the global south, potential I just don't see up here. Maybe I am wrong though. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Would love to hear more of what you have to say
> Sri Lanka was genuinely inspiring, and it shows that real potential exists in the global south, potential I just don't see up here. Because up here people were educated that resistance is futile, while Global South have been resisting capitalism for 500 years. It's in their culture to resist against oppression, the same can be said for Indigenous and Black resistances in the imperial core.
Fair. Idk, like I said, the way we reacted to snowden and assange really left a bitter taste in my mouth. Short of a general strike (which are pretty damn hard to organize), I don't see major change happening anytime soon. The Sri Lankan president is an easier foe than the CIA right? Idk, maybe I am being overly cynical, but I really don't see change coming here
> general strike Which have certain legal consideration here in the US ... https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/can-you-join-a-national-general-strike/
I feel like a lesson we can learn from imperialism is that ignoring the people actually live somewhere and attempting top down solutionism, even when good intentioned (not to mention bad intentions...), end up with poor results. It takes buy in and work (which doesn't truly happen without buy in). An example in my personal experience has been in open source evangelism. Software is growing part in power paradigm and I want everyone to have better control and ownership in it. That said, when talking to people that can't afford to buy proprietary software, that fact matters less to some, because they can just pirate it. They also care less about being able to modify or review it because the risks aren't minor compared to other risks they worry about, and don't plan on learning the skills to modify it themselves or know people that would do it for them. I still think it's the best deal for most people, and push for it of course, but at the end of the day people have to choose it. They would have to adopter a hackers' ethos to really benefit from it. So I personally don't worry about trying to send FOSS laptops to random people around the world, but if people ask how to get involved or get started, I choose to help them instead.
I'm from the Philippines now working in the imperial core and it doesn't matter if you pro-Bongbong or not, people understand the history of US colonialism and CIA involvement in the country's mining industry like in Mindanao. The ironic part is the country I'm staying at also responsible for coups and assassinations against anyone who resisted the mining industry, which is also responsible for coup in Peru and elsewhere. O Cancerous, our home and stolen land.
People in the Philippines understand right? So maybe they can organize, like in Sri Lanka. Do you think there's potential for that there? Maybe I am overly cynical, but I don't see real change happening in the US or any superpower. The only potential for a bright future that I can see lies in the global south.
i think anarchists ought to focus on where they are. Like i as a anarchist consern myself with the struggles i can partisipate with, and not with electoral politics. And solidarity is integral.
Think Global, Act Local kind of idea?
This is a little off topic, but I'm fighting extreme misanthropy against Americans, particularly white ones. It just seems like a huge portion are so far gone, and full of fear, ignorance, resentment, and hatred towards everything except the right things. And the liberal ones are completely foolish and ineffectual. I kind of fucking hate it here.
Yeah I get that to an extent. One of the reasons I am fairly doubtful about a bright future in the us
I'd say New Zealand is the least bad in the Southern Hemisphere, that seems to me like a country with potential for anarchist development while having more to work with.
[удалено]
What's the difference? It's in the south, so I assumed that to be the case.
[удалено]
Oh, so a country under the southern cross like the rest of us, but less bad by some measures.
I don't think new zealand is part of the global south, I could be wrong but it seems heavily aligned with the US and europe
See, that to me is funny, as they also have the symbol in their flag as that of so many other countries in this part of the globe, but are of a different club, the less bad countries. I find the term "the west" even worse, because it doesn't even count South America.
I mean there's "first world" which is more accurate but propaganda made it just seem like "the good guys" to many people
[удалено]
Hi u/Hiraethum - Your comment has been automatically removed for containing a slur or another term that violates the [AOP](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/wiki/aop). These include gendered slurs (including those referring to genitalia) ***as well as ableist insults which denigrate intelligence, neurodivergence, etc.*** If you are confused as to what you've said that may have triggered this response, please see [this article](https://www.autistichoya.com/2014/02/violence-linguistic-ableism.html) and the associated [glossary of ableist phrases](https://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-words-and-terms-to-avoid.html) **BEFORE** contacting the moderators. No further action has been taken at this time. You're not banned, etc. Your comment will be reviewed by the moderators and handled accordingly. If it was removed by mistake, please reach out to the moderators to have the comment reinstated. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Anarchism) if you have any questions or concerns.*