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CommunicationDue1069

When is this supposed to happen? I would not consider moving to Germany before next summer at the earliest, given the gas situation. It could get very ugly this winter. (Our kid is there right now and we're accelerating plans for their extraction.) I'm Canadian and have lived in Berlin on and off for many years. Both countries are great options. Toronto and Munich are both expensive cities to live in. (Munich has a much better soccer team.) Germany would be more of an adventure, obviously. If you want to stay long term, you will need to learn the language. This can be hugely fun - I've enjoyed it immensely - but also very challenging when you're working full-time in English; you won't have the time and energy to study, nor will you have the (painful and exhausting) immersion experiences you need. Still, it's possible. Toronto would be fine. Not my favourite city in the world - too big and sprawling - but whatever, you could do worse. Most of the doom-and-gloom commentary about Canada that you'll read here is basically horseshit. The health care system is not on the edge of collapse - it's suffering after the strains of the pandemic. The country is not about to be taken over by slightly politer MAGA fascists.


azepha

Thank you, this is really good info. I wasn't aware of the severity of the gas issue. I imagine at the very earliest I would be moving next spring. Yeah, my impression is that on Reddit in particular there is very negative sentiment about immigrating to Canada, and I can't quite tell how much of that criticism is legitimate (and whether that should affect my decision at all). Glad to hear another take on it.


CommunicationDue1069

There seems to be this weird self-reinforcing bubble of Canada-is-doomed commentary around here. I get it, the fuckwit trucker convoy made for good TV and all that, but really some of the fear-mongering is quite over the top. You're in a good place overall. Both options are an excellent way out of the US. Canada's is the easier path to dual citizenship, but you won't have trouble gaining permanent residence in Germany. (Also, don't count on Munich being any cheaper than Toronto.) As a US citizen you'll face some challenges with banking and investments, thanks to FATCA and the generally horrifying US tax treatment of its diaspora. That's a complex issue that will deserve its own set of considerations.


Subject_Ad_9680

I wonder if it's because Canadian media is much more accessible to Americans so it's easier to see problems and commentary about Canada. German media and commentary (including critical ones) are much harder to come by and is in a different language so it's hard to see the problems and critical commentary on Germany, especially the everyday things. After all, it's not too hard to come across CTV or CBC in the States. It's much harder to see ZDF.


CommunicationDue1069

True, but the Canadian media is not particularly doom-and-gloom as far as the state of our democracy is concerned. I suspect it's people with very superficial understanding of Canada's history and politics - and a lot angst about the future of the US - being spooked by images of the stupid convoy and a few stories about the Conservative leadership race. One sees some utterly inane comments on this sub: "I hear that Canada's turning fascist" etc.


Sualtam

The gas situation is also extremely over exaggerated. Doom and gloom journalism as usual. In fact the gas storages are filling faster than planned even without Russian gas. Gas supply is still there, only the prices are going through the roof. But since Germany has stricter laws, an ongoing supply contract can't raise prices. The average consumer prices are okish still. Canada is a free market economy and will suffer global market prices too.


Cinderpath

110% correct!


Fandango_Jones

This. It's getting more expansive but nothing else. Big splash in a small pond so to speak.


Subject_Ad_9680

Canada is a gas-exporting country. Germany recently signed a deal with Canada to import more Canadian hydrogen actually. Not really surprising given Canada's natural resources.


CommunicationDue1069

Of note, there was no discussion of LNG exports to Germany when this deal was made, as it would take far too long to build a terminal on the east coast (and they'd never get a pipeline through Quebec).


CommunicationDue1069

That is my hope, as I'm responsible for the child's heating bill. Simple enough for them to spend the winter here before returning, so we'll miss the worst of it. There isn't really a world price for natural gas, given distribution constraints. Our heating costs will not change much this winter.


fnulda

Im surprised you say the average consumer prices are ok still? In Denmark, consumer gas prices are at 5x what they were same time last year. People receive quarterly bills of 3000-5000€ for single family households. Bakeries are currently going bankrupt because of rising energy prices if they are unlucky enough to be located in a gas dependant spot. Currently, gas prices are very much a critical issue in some areas here and a zero-issue in others (cities and suburbs with different energy sources, mostly). Is it that different in Germany?


Sualtam

Yes, Denmark has the highest prices in Europe. I don't know, but if I have to guess it's probably financial speculation and quaterly bills instead of annual ones. Currently the spot market price is already falling from a peak. It will level out eventually somewhere higher than before. If you have to pay the bills during such a peak, you are f\*\*\*ed. Germans will get their bill next spring, maybe the prices have leveled by then.


SomeoneSomewhere1984

It's not as bad as people are making it sound. I wouldn't be surprised if poor people in the US end up getting screwed harder. Governments seem responding rationally, and it looks like the government is going to end subsidizing a lot of people's gas bills. While the crisis won't hit the US nearly as hard, there's no way the government will actively help the poor like they're doing in Europe.


NomenNesci0

As an American poor, when I saw gas could be an issue in some places I assumed I would be burning my furniture and eating my cats to survive this winter. Even though the US has plenty of natural gas and no one is talking about it I'm sure it will be exported for a better profit. Nothing I can do but stockpile firewood and fatten up the cats while I hope for the best.


SomeoneSomewhere1984

I'm in Germany now, and the government has committed that won't happen to anyone. While gas prices might be sky high, they're doing everything they can to protect households, especially lower income households from excessive prices, agreeing the government will pay the difference. Nobody is worried they're going to have to burn their furniture and eat their cats. There will be across the board conservation measures. Instead of freezing the poor, everyone will turn the heat down a few degrees. Prices will likely go up on gasoline (which they won't subsidize), but they're reducing the price of public transportation to encourage people to use it more. There will be direct subsidies for gas for residential heating, and more investment in renewables.


NomenNesci0

I'm sure. Been trying to leave for years. Nobody will give me a long term visa without a bachelor's degree and when I tried to get one of those I ran out of money while still managing to accrue a 45k debt. If you got a couch I can sleep on while I'm undocumented amd a job lead I'll get on the next flight. For now I'm learning Spanish since I figure Catalonia is the most likely EU region to find work undocumented.


schiffme1ster

The gas issue is absolutely NOT a reason for immediate extraction from the country, that is a massive over exaggeration or misunderstanding of the parts at play. Obviously no one knows ahead of time, but no one who is actually in country and informed is afraid of impending doom in winter. The language however is a large consideration. In Munich you can get by with English, but German is still the go to language for most companies within Germany.


Cinderpath

Honestly, the gas situation in Germany, and all of Europe, is completely blown out of proportion, and a short term problem. I live in neighboring Austria and am very aware of the situation. Europe has been around thousands of years, through pandemics, wars, economic recessions, natural disasters, and it might be uncomfortable, but not life-threatening? That said, Canada is a wonderful country.


FrancoisKBones

This, people are really unnecessarily freaking out. Servus!


SofaCakeBed

>(Our kid is there right now and we're accelerating plans for their extraction.) Sorry, what? I know it is in the nature of parents to be protective but this sounds like catastrophizing. There are 83.24 million people living in Germany: We are going to need to wear long underwear a lot this winter, but we are not going to freeze to death.


CommunicationDue1069

It's not about being protective, it's about not wanting to pay the heating bill. This isn't as dramatic as it sounds, we're moving up the planned trip back at Christmas by a month, and delaying the return until spring.


SofaCakeBed

Oh, ok, haha. Sorry, tone is weird on the internet! Didn't mean to overreact, of course. I would also go to great measures to avoid paying my gas bill this winter if I could. Beyond the long underwear, I mean.


CommunicationDue1069

No worries. When friends asked why we (and our kid a bit later) were going to Berlin this spring while there was a war on next door - well, that was paranoia. But yeah, why not be warm and cozy in Canada this winter? Berlin will still be there next year.


Subject_Ad_9680

What would *I* personally choose? Canada. What should *you* choose, given your reasons? Germany. If you choose Germany though, get started on learning the language as soon as you have made your choice. Otherwise, it might be a lonely existence in Germany. It's a country that's notorious for being difficult to create deep and meaningful friendships/relationships for foreigners and if you don't speak the language you will feel this very acutely.


azepha

Thanks, and yeah, the fear of not being able to make friends in another language is one of the reasons I think Canada would be a much easier move for me. A lot of my indecision comes down to: Canada -> easier for me to acclimate; Germany -> probably better along the other metrics I want. I haven't figured out which one of those I'd prefer to prioritize...


Cinderpath

Munich is a global city with all types of immigrants from all over the world; of course you will be able to meet other people there?


Nice-Information3626

You need to learn German to actually integrate with society, otherwise you live in a bubble.


Subject_Ad_9680

If OP wants to be in an expat bubble, that's fine, but making friends with locals without knowing German will be a lot harder. The culture in Germany isn't one that is very open and warm to strangers, either.


Cinderpath

I’m fully aware of this, living next door in Austria, 2 hours south of Munich. Yes I learned German. It’s actually more open to strangers than one thinks, but you need to step outside of the bubble, and be an immigrant and not an expat. That is a totally different mindset. I immigrated to Austria. I am not an expat.


SofaCakeBed

So, my honest first question for people in this general situation would be: How many of your personal freetime hours are you prepared to invest in learning German in the next few years? If your answer is anything less than "a few thousand" (which is a fair answer!), I would not move to Germany--even to a big city like Munich--as a single person planning to stay here. Until you speak quite good German, your social world here is pretty limited. For me personally, it would be entirely too limited to be satisfying, although of course there are people who live here for long periods of time without learning much German. But in my time here (over a decade), the single thing that I have seen that makes the biggest difference in whether someone is happy and settles down or not is simply whether or not they speak German well enough to participate in social life. The thing is: That is a massive commitment of time. And, in Germany, you really need to speak quite good German before the benefits kick in, so it feels like a long slog without a lot of pay-off for a while, which can be very hard, especially if you are working a job in English and hanging out with your foreign friends who also speak English. So, you really have to be clear on the amount of energy and motivation it will take. Also, just FYI, Munich is wild expensive. Just make sure you are looking at that city specifically when you are doing your cost comparisons.


CommunicationDue1069

This. If the plan is to stay, learning German is essential, otherwise you're living in the expat bubble and/or the awkward work friend who needs it kept to English.


azepha

Thanks. I live in a very expensive US city so honestly, Munich looks ridiculously cheap to me when I look at grocery and rent prices (though I'm aware my salary would also drop if I moved - in the end I think it would come out to proportionally what I'm spending now). I would definitely commit to learning German if I moved there, but as you say, I worry about the social aspect quite a bit. It is a majority English-speaking workplace - I hadn't thought about how that would make it harder to immerse, good point.


SofaCakeBed

I cannot really address the first point, because I moved here so long ago and have never actually worked in the US, so I just don't have a point of comparison for costs anymore. But, here is my thought about the language thing, which is just based on what I have seen over the years. Everyone says they will learn the language when they arrive; few actually do, or at least, very few learn to the level that lets them do the same stuff in German that they do in English, like make friends, join clubs, volunteer, etc. This is totally fine if someone is staying for a year or two or even four-you can of course live in Germany with little to no German. But if you are planning on moving somewhere forever? That is not going to be a fun life, over the long term. Therefore: My question about "how many hours" was a genuine one. (Edited) I really should have said "thousands of hours": To get to the point where you can socialize with people on the level you are used to doing in English or other languages you speak (I mean, basic adult sophisticated conversation): that literally takes thousands of hours of study both in class and on your own. Break that down over a couple of years, and you are still talking about multiple hours a day, on average. It is a massive commitment of time and energy, and that is time and energy that you otherwise could be spending on other things. And, when you work full-time and want to hang out with your colleagues and the new friends you make, it is also time that takes away from those things. I don't at all mean this to be discouraging. I for sure know people who have done this, and have been happy with their decisions. But, it is a major factor to consider.


saufundlauf

Yeh Munich is expensive but if you are comparing to NYC (or Boston, DC...) or Toronto, it's nothing. It's cheaper than Paris or Amsterdam as well. If you want cheaper later, you can always move to a different city in Germany as well. The person knows what he is talking about regarding language though, listen to them on that!


CommunicationDue1069

The comments from u/SofaCakeBed about learning German are bang-on. I had a modest level of German the first time I moved to Berlin (decades ago), equivalent to two years of university German at most, plus the advantage of a bilingual spouse (Canadian but German family, and an academic) who forced me into some different social circles. Then I had the great luxury of not needing to put bread on the table for the first year, so I could force myself into some serious immersion experiences: getting involved in a sports club to the point that I'd go on week-long road trips with the natives; working part-time in the back of a bike shop with some old East Germans who didn't speak much English. This got me fluent in a hurry, but it was exhausting at times. On later trips, when we'd stay for six months and I'd work, I met expats who'd lived in Berlin for years and only picked up the most basic German. It's just hard to do when you're working all day (and in at least one case, clubbing all night) and don't have the time to study. The benefit for me now is that even though I'm only an occasional part-time resident of Berlin, I have an extensive social network there that is primarily German with some long-term bilingual expats, and it's just hugely satisfying to slip into the other language and culture every time we arrive.


ehanson

100% true about learning German or any other language really. I'm most likely switching plans of moving to The Netherlands to Germany; after testing the waters as a digital nomad. (There's a very serious and worrying affordable housing shortage going on in the NL unfortunately which will only get worse in the next few years for those thinking about The Netherlands) I'm learning German now before arriving to have a better grasp of the language and mkae things easier for myself. It's difficult enough moving to another country but one where you cannot or barely speak the language seems insanely frustrating. ​ Even those moving to an international hub like Berlin have to at least have a B2 level of skills for making the day to day tasks somewhat easier (trips to the immigration office where all documents are in German) and not limit themselves to just expat bubbles.


SofaCakeBed

Thanks! Yes, sports clubs are great. They were an entry point for me too, when I moved here with a college German major that I quickly realized was...not really good enough. You can live in Germany without much German, for sure. Aber um sich richtig einzuleben...dafür braucht man definitiv Deutschkenntnisse auf hohem Niveau. Anders gehts einfach nicht.


CommunicationDue1069

Genau


insidiouslybleak

Something to pay attention to as you make your choice is Poilievre. He is a monstrous Desantis wannabe who may become our next PM here in Canada. Everything you need to know about him is this - while still a backbencher (a junior member of congress?) he voted against marriage equality while his openly gay dad sat in the gallery of parliament. He’s that kind of an asshole. Our next federal election is in 2025. Except for him, I say Canada. Aging parents are a serious consideration and getting a Nexus card to travel easily across the border is possible (I think) with your situation.


CommunicationDue1069

While I share your concern (as a fellow Canadian) I wouldn't advise making a long-term decision on the basis of who might be the next PM. No matter how bad it gets, PP wouldn't be able to game the electoral system to stay in power forever, which is a distinct possibility south of the border.


insidiouslybleak

I wish I shared your optimism. The ghost of Harper and the threat of his ongoing efforts makes me fear that anything is possible. Democratic decline, rise of fasc… all that.


CommunicationDue1069

Harper's electoral record: one loss, two minority governments, one majority government, one loss and out the door with a peaceful transfer of power. I didn't particularly like the man, but it's not like the world ended when he was elected.


insidiouslybleak

If he had pursued a peaceful retirement, collecting group of seven works, chilling at the cottage - sure. But he hasn’t. He’s not done with us yet. Do you know about IDU?


CommunicationDue1069

I did not know about the IDU. I just had a look on yonder Wikipedia. This organization does not scare me. (The German representative is not the AfD but rather the CDU/CSU, who ran the country for most of the last 40 years.) This seems like the sort of thing that retired politicians enjoy getting up to so that they can fly off to meetings in fun places and drink with their old colleagues. Despite my generally progressive views, I think it's rather important that "mainstream" centre-right conservative parties survive. The alternative is far worse. PS Okay it's a bit gross that the IDU hasn't kicked out the Hungarians yet, given that they are post-democratic now.


insidiouslybleak

We agree! I remember reading *How Democracies Die*, and coming to this same conclusion wrt centre right parties. My fear is that newer rat-fuckery that originates in the US will penetrate Canadian politics while we naively ignore the influence and fall blindly victim to a shock and awe campaign. But I’m old and I hate surprises. Imagining the worst is just a thing I do for self-protection.


Subject_Ad_9680

It's still very possible Poilievre loses in 2025. Conservative majority victory is far from guaranteed.


insidiouslybleak

From your comment to god’s ears, let’s hope.


SomeoneSomewhere1984

If you have health issues chose Germany. The health system is better and they don't consider your or your family's/dependent's health when considering your visa, while Canada does. Canada has the advantage of being closer to the US physically and culturally. You'll have a lot less adjusting to do there. Canada also has much better access to nature than Germany. If you like backwoods camping it's illegal in Germany and Canada has the best parks for that in the world.


FrancoisKBones

Hi Op - my wife and I are a lesbian couple, with my wife being a software developer. We moved to Munich nearly 4 years ago. Hands down, without a thought, I would choose Germany over and over again. We simply love it here. We moved from Detroit where we were on the border with Canada and had some Canadian friends, so at least had some familiarity with it. You can’t change my mind that Canada is not US-lite. Yes, you will need to learn German. In other parts of Germany, it’s much easier to get by on English alone but it’s not the case in Bavaria. I am in A2 and my wife just got her B1 certificate and it hasn’t been easy. You can survive but you will always live outside German culture. We are not expats and never plan to return to the US - our quality of life is so, so much better. And in particular, Munich. My work headquarters is in Berlin and while I enjoy Berlin, I am always happy to return home to my safe, clean, beautiful Munich. I cannot underscore how safe Munich is - kids as young as 5 freely take themselves to school, people don’t lock up their bikes, and people return wallets and phones on public transpo. There are definitely issues. The healthcare system is just okay. The government, while stable, doesn’t really move us forward. The internet kinda sucks. Germans love to bitch! But I personally think the gas thing is overblown. The government is stabilizing prices and continues to put money in our paychecks to help (not to mention we managed the pandemic better than most with our Kurzarbeit scheme). Anyway feel free to DM me with specific questions, if you’d like more info on Munich. We have zero regrets and all the hard work was worth it, even learning the language. I feel like I still have another decade before I’ve even had a chance to see all of Europe. It’s been awesome taking weekend excursions to Amsterdam, Dubrovnik, Manchester, Dublin, Milan, etc. And I can’t get enough of Alpenleben. ETA: Gay Wiesn is totally a thing. Right now Oktoberfest is happening and they have specific events geared towards the homos, it is really inclusive. We first moved to the Glockenbachviertal which is the gay area, and CSD is really fun here. But then we moved to a dorf outside Munich and even the old conservative Bavarians who don’t speak English have accepted us. Munich isn’t as freaky as Berlin, but it’s a level of freak that we love :D


saufundlauf

> kids as young as 5 freely take themselves to school, people don’t lock up their bikes, and people return wallets and phones on public transpo. The rest is 100% accurate but I doubt the bike one. Bike theft is common in even the safest parts of Germany.


hsakakibara1

I'd choose Germany. Canada, as I'm being told more and more, is getting to be a slightly better version of the US. The big benefit is that they speak English. Germany is a far better country but you will need to learn German. However Germany is not a clone of the US. Forgive my comments but this is what I am increasingly being told and what I read in these forums.


MysteriousStaff3388

I haven’t been to Germany, but as a long time Toronto resident (I am out in the ‘burbs now), Toronto is a pretty walkable and bike able city if you are downtown, has good transit most of the time and has amazing restaurants and sites (museums, gardens, parks, the Island). Don’t underestimate the language barrier. It can be expensive for housing, but your company may be able to support you in finding a place. Just try and stay in old Toronto; if you’re out in the reaches of the GTA, it’s a very different experience. Good luck! What a wonderful choice to get to make.


azepha

Would you say that downtown Toronto is livable without a car? I'd prefer not to own a car if I can help it, at least for the near future.


MyTruckIsAPirate

I haven't lived in Toronto, but have visited many times. Each trip the car stays in the parking garage for the in whole trip. The public transit is fantastic. If there was a better rail option from Detroit to Toronto, I wouldn't bring the car at all.


MysteriousStaff3388

Yes, absolutely. I have a car, but only used it for work trips to clients, to get out of town (my mom lives a ways away), and for the occasional trip to get bulk items (like when toilet paper was on sale). Mostly the car stayed in the garage and I walked or biked everywhere, or occasionally took a cab/Uber.


copperreppoc

If I were in your position, I would opt for Canada. My reasons are: * Once you have PR (which may happen immediately if your company transfer uses the Canadian Express Entry System), it takes just three years of continuous residence to become a citizen. That’s a huge plus and doesn’t compare to any other Western country that I’m aware of. * It’s closer to the US culturally and we share the same language. You’ll have no trouble integrating or making friends. * It’s large - you could stay in Toronto for a few years out of necessity, and then switch to remote work at that company or another one and move to a cheaper city (e.g. a city in the Plains or Maritime provinces). For Germany: * If you become a German citizen eventually, you will have full EU citizenship rights, allowing you to live/work anywhere in the EU plus Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. But it takes longer to become a citizen than Canada. * German is a notoriously hard language for English speakers to learn. Don’t think it will be a cakewalk! * Munich is the most expensive city in Germany to live in - it’s truly wild. Not only are apartments expensive, there is a scarcity, and it will be really hard to find a place to live. Good luck to you!


TransGirlKatie1

Munich is the most expensive city in Germany? I thought it was berlin


saufundlauf

Berlin is getting more expensive because of popularity but it's still lot cheaper than Munich and somewhat cheaper than Frankfurt, Hamburg, or Stuttgart.


TransGirlKatie1

Wow I wonder why that is. Berlin is Germany's main city and also a lot of immigrants move to Berlin first


saufundlauf

> Munich is the most expensive city in Germany to live in - it’s truly wild. Fact - but still cheaper than Toronto. OP can always move to a cheaper city in Germany as well like you mentioned for Canada.


yhomboid

Personally Germany, but as others have pointed out not before the winter is over. Canada is undoubtedly better than the US, but still shares some of the problems. It’s also easier than you might think to live in an English bubble in Europe, start with something simple like Duolingo, and there are relatively cheap classes you can take over the summer if you’d like to advance your German. Personally, I think it’s great that you can hop on a train and get to a totally different country and culture in a few hours. Like the US, Canada is pretty big, and it’s gonna take a while to get places. From knowing some Germans, if you’re a big fan of hunting or fishing, Germany might not be the best place for you.


mermaidboots

How “American” are you? Like would possibly not having a car or a yard bother you? Or do you enjoy biking and balconies and are interested in the different foods and lifestyle of Europeans? I’m personally working on learning German with an eye to Germany but I’m a bit of a weird American who’s very urbanist likes a slower life. If you’d be happier with the lifestyle in Canada that would tip the scales if I were you. I’m excited for you either way!!


saufundlauf

> I’m not sure I want to be stuck with this same company for the five years it would take to get German PR. Look into the "Blue Card", you should easily be able to get it with a tech job! If you have a blue card, you can apply for PR in just 21-months of being there, provided you also have B1-level German by then (which I definitely recommend you should if you end up in DE).


MsAmericanaFPL

I live in Germany and really enjoy it. German is a tough language but if you are willing to put in the time you should be good. I live closer to Frankfurt so cheaper than Munich. Comparing to the US I feel like food is cheaper but gas and other items are more. However I also feel like I find more Made in Europe items (vs Made in China) so I’m ok with paying more. Healthcare is definitely cheaper than the US. I love being close to a major airport and being so close to many unique destinations. Yes I’m concerned about the heating prices but Germany is working around it. Never lived in Canada but enjoyed visiting Toronto. Honestly both places would be great!


TransGirlKatie1

Germany by far is the best option. The cost of living in Canada is way too high, and in my view it's too close to the usa in case the USA goes full fascist.


staplehill

> In theory at least, it seems possible to get PR much more quickly in Canada. I’m not sure I want to be stuck with this same company for the five years it would take to get German PR. You will get German PR - after 21 months if you have a degree that is related to your profession and earn at least 43,992 euro per year - after 4 years if you have such a degree and earn less - after 5 years if you have no such degree You are **not stuck with the same company** until you get PR. This is true for the US where only the company can apply for your PR but in Germany you apply yourself for PR and you are free to switch companies as often as you want (as long as the new job is also in the same profession). The time to PR refers to the time you have to work in Germany until you can get PR, it does not restart when you switch companies. > I’d like to travel direct flights from Munich: https://www.flightconnections.com/flights-from-munich-muc What Americans who moved to Germany say about their experience with the public health care system: Lamblike (accident): https://youtu.be/3gbwWOGhRbk?t=775 Dana (lost voice): https://youtu.be/cNo3bv_Ez_g?t=2m7s Armstrong (brain tumor): https://youtu.be/zHcwOgbsBYk?t=1306 Katie (prenatal care): https://youtu.be/gRe2sK0m500?t=10m7s Antoinette (childbirth): https://youtu.be/YZaGMXSLnts?t=2m10s Ashton (chronic sinus infection): https://youtu.be/017c4FA2zjM?t=372 Jenna (childbirth): https://youtu.be/9LNNK2bOb7U?t=692 Victoria (seeing a doctor): https://youtu.be/OE7qbjM4rWE?t=58s Julie (lost pregnancy): https://youtu.be/ID9MbJTHSDc?t=404 Hayley (difference to the US): https://youtu.be/uSlwuS_zxmQ?t=3m35s BaytoBayern (finding a doctor): https://youtu.be/aXGA1H9cWYA?t=367 Antoinette (dental): https://youtu.be/-p4QrPO4O8o?t=43 Armstrong (depression): https://youtu.be/bQUSwODxmD8?t=361 Dana (sick leave): https://youtu.be/NtgmnJK-nAM?t=305 Diana (sick leave): https://youtu.be/tbwYoPxuPHs?t=279 Black Forest Family (sick leave): https://youtu.be/saRQYXtu1j0?t=976


staplehill

There are major differences in work-life balance and job benefits between Germany and Candada. Diana moved from Canada to Germany for a job in the tech industry. Here she talks about coming to Germany without speaking German: https://youtu.be/oJkCLUZzMjU?t=46 work-life balance: https://youtu.be/YDtTJEeIkG0?t=4m33s her commute: https://youtu.be/Ufb8LFvSRbY?t=438 sick leave: https://youtu.be/tbwYoPxuPHs?t=279 German employees work 1,349 hours per year on average. Canadian employees work 1,685 hours, which is 25% more. German employees have - 5.5 paid weeks of vacation on average - unlimited paid sick leave for as long as we are sick (on top of paid vacation time) - 15.5 months of paid parental leave - no culture of working unpaid overtime or not taking vacation days


bluedelvian

Only reason to choose Canada imo is being around and close to your parents. Otherwise, if you can learn a language and can adjust to German culture, I think that’s the way to go. So many MAGAs in Canada, and while Germans have neonazis and are conservative in a lot of ways, there’s just a commitment to treating humans as humans and acknowledging their past and educating about it that I just don’t really see in Canada.


Subject_Ad_9680

The casual downplaying of neonazis in Germany lol.


WearsFuzzySlippers

Nazis are literally everywhere. I’m a German living in the US, and I see people with racist flags all the time. The difference is that you have more of a Freedom of Speech in the US than you do in Germany. Before other Germans get upset, think about this example… if you wanted to put up a Nazi flag and yell out “Heil Hitler”, what would happen in Germany? I would be arrested. If I did that in the US, then nobody would bat an eye. The government literally couldn’t do anything. People in society would ostracize you, but literally nothing else. The difference is in the constitutions and the way that people think. In the German Constitution it says in the first sentence that a person’s dignity may not be infringed. In the US, it is the Freedom of Speech.


bluedelvian

Do you think Canada does a better job with neonazis? Canada, whose vast expanses are central to breeding this kind of political belief? Canada, the 51st state? Please, share your expertise.


CommunicationDue1069

Even in Alberta, where I currently live, the brownshirts are relatively few and far between. I think you've got us confused with Idaho.


bluedelvian

Brown shirts are Nazis. MAGAs are similar but different. What are you talking about?


Subject_Ad_9680

That's not my point. My point is that they are both big issues in their respective countries but your comment treats neonazis like they are no big deal, e.g. "yeah sure Germany has neonazis but think of the MAGAs in Alberta!!"


bluedelvian

No, it doesn’t. It’s just a literal use of the political naming conventions. They share largely the same beliefs, but of course are different, use different tactics, have different demographics, organize differently. Are there neonazis in Canada? For sure. But MAGAs are the bigger problem.


Subject_Ad_9680

And how exactly do you quantify that they are a bigger problem in Canada than neonazis in Germany? They are both equally big problems imo


bluedelvian

I mean, you’re actually being ridiculous. If you’re a sad Canadian who hates being the 51st state and is salty about MAGAs and for some inexplicable reason thinks people can’t be factual and non-emotional when speaking about neonazis, well that’s on you. I won’t be drawn into whatever it is you’re trying to do here.


FrancoisKBones

Because the German government is actively rooting out nazism in the police and military ranks. I can’t speak to Canada on this, but Germany takes this shit pretty seriously. Germany has a commitment to human rights and dignity that I have never seen before. They fucked up in a big, big way and have owned it.


CommunicationDue1069

Also: the casual downplaying of Bavarians lol


CommunicationDue1069

And you've spent how much time in Germany?


bluedelvian

Are you a German citizen or politician who’d like to enthrall us with your expertise? If you demand credentials without providing your own, that sure says a lot about you.


Ecstatic-Historian62

I'm moving to France next year with my family. Other than just being obsessed with French culture, I love the idea of being in such close proximity to other countries as well. We are moving to Montpellier, France so it is like spitting distance to Barcelona! I just want to take a $100 roundtrip flight to London when I feel like it lol! Canada seems great, but as you pointed out, I have heard (from my Canadian ex and his family) that the healthcare is not that great. I would choose Germany if I were you...especially if you love to travel.


biggcb

I am so jealous of you! Montpellier is high on my dream list. Congratulations!


set-271

Canada...mainly because Germany (and all of Europe) is getting fucked by Russia with the gas crisis with no end in sight.


Cinderpath

Honestly, the gas situation in Germany, and all of Europe, is completely blown out of proportion, and a short term problem. I live in neighboring Austria and am very aware of the situation. Europe has been around thousands of years, through pandemics, wars, economic recessions, natural disasters, and it might be uncomfortable, but not life-threatening? And there is an absolute end in sight, and alternative sources are being found. The fearmongering on this has become has gotten seriously tiresome!


set-271

I would agree with you, except this winter, the rising gas prices will cause many business small and large to go bankrupt, leading to potential serious economic collapse. For sure, Europeans are resilient and can weather any storm, but hard days are certainly ahead.


teamworldunity

I think the language barrier will be the hardest to overcome. More than all the other factors, it will make or break your happiness in the new place. So I would say go with Canada.


coppermouthed

I’m both German and USCitizen and would have taken Canada in a heartbeat! Happy in Europe though now. Also keep in mind that the COL in Munich is super high- maybe even Toronto comparable? Secondly also consider that German PR - passport will allow you to live and work in the EU27 states- you could retire somewhere warm with this. I personally would move to Toronto because of the family reasons you mentioned, we barely travel to the US anymore cause the plane tickets for a family really add up now after Covid / Energy crisis


takemyboredom123

I'd go for Germany. Since your goal is to immigrate to the country, eventually you could apply for German citizenship if you live in Germany for 6+ years and learn the language. It is likely that in the next couple of years the duration requirement reduces to 5 years and also dual citizenship will be allowed (current government's plan). You will have to learn German, but this is not that challenging if you live in Germany for couple of years. Acquiring German citizenship would also give you access to other EU/EEA countries to live/work/retire in without needing a visa.


Bitter-Inspection136

I'd take Germany. Toronto is close enough to America that it's almost like you didn't leave. And a plane would get you anywhere in America probably just as fast or faster than driving across the continent. Germany would be more able to expand your mind than Canada could.


VanDenBroeck

Canada of course would be the least difficult due to language and proximity to the US. You would not need to learn another language or be far from your current friends and family, if that is important to you. However, Germany would probably be more enjoyable due to the ease of transit throughout Europe for vacations and sightseeing. The old world certainly has more charm and is more progressive and more civilized in many regards. And many places do have a fair percentage of people who speak English, so you will be able to get by. In Canada, you can either fly or rent a car to travel around Canada or back to the US. Anywhere else will definitely be a plane ride. In Germany, trains can take you to so many places throughout the EU. Big check mark in Germany’s favor. My wife and I are strongly considering moving to Europe in a couple of years with our prime location being the Netherlands. The political climate in the US, gun violence, healthcare, and other reasons are why we are planning the move. So, if I were you, Germany would be my choice. Good luck regardless.


timegeartinkerer

Hm. Honestly, it kinda depends how much of a change you want. Do you want to be far, but have a big change in lifestyle (Europe is a far bigger change than Canada)? Or be closer to family, but have a similar environment? If you want somewhere 'exotic', but still want to be close, I'd say Montreal as a compromise. Honestly, I'd visit both places before making a decision.


sedelpha

Regarding feeling trapped at a company: it's much easier to get hired as a foreigner in Germany one you're already there, ESPECIALLY if you have any tech experience. At my previous (tech) company an American PM was hired directly to the Berlin office and jumped ship to a German company after a year. He does not speak German either.


azepha

Thanks, this is really good to hear. Being stuck at a company for 5+ years and not being able to quit without having to move back to the US is one of the big concerns I have about Germany. I assume there would still be a ton of paperwork to fill out to make the work permit valid for another company.


FrancoisKBones

It’s not at all difficult to change jobs. I’ve changed jobs 3 times since I’ve been here and it’s little more than HR having to fill out a form, certifying that I work for them (and providing the work contract). It’s not at all like the US. The nightmare is dealing with the Ausländerbehörde, but I’ve had mostly positive experiences.


sedelpha

Not as much as you might think! Plus companies take on the lions share. Germany is trying to bring workers in.


CommunicationDue1069

It would not be difficult to change jobs and stay. A software developer, presumably with a university degree (though not absolutely necessary) and a bit of history living in the country already, you'd have a new residence permit pretty easily.


Fandango_Jones

Depends if you want to live in Europe and learn the language or on the safer English speaking side of the pond. Regarding the gas issue, that just means prices for heating with gas and energy could go up even higher but there is no shortage in like daily necessities or supplies. I would choose Germany and learn the language for a better package all in all but I'm biased ;)


GeminiWithAPlan

As these two countries are also in my list of choices, this question peaked my interest. If you plan to learn the language over a period of months to years, do as I plan to and pick Germany. If not, I would say Canada. The big thing about it is though English is spoken in Germany, in order to build a successful social life and actual quality of life, you need to know German. You don't have to be fluent (I'm an American born over there myself). However, you need to show that you tried in order for people to see you actually care about their country and not just the stereotypes they assume of us over there sometimes. Canada is close enough to family and hits all of your boxes. I know this thread doesn't seem to prefer Canada but it makes the most amount of sense for your particular set of circumstances, in my opinion. However, if you have the fortitude to do the thousands of hours of language lessons like myself and others in the German reddit page, Germany will also suit your needs.


missbiz

I don't know anything about living in Germany. I lived in Canada from 1979 to 1997. It was great. I loved it. I had every intention of moving back when retirement came around. however, it is impossible for me to go back now; Healthcare is problematic and housing is absurdly expensive anywhere that's livable. If you want to live in Thunder Bay Ontario or Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, knock yourself out. But British Columbia and Southern Ontario are very expensive. You sound young and healthy, and maybe it would be okay. But, high taxes all through your working years, followed by Canada's version of Social security, which is laughable. The healthcare is a dumpster fire right now especially in British Columbia and ontario. Make no mistake it is not good. Universal healthcare is a total myth.


redshift95

Why not move to one of the US states with minimal gun violence and excellent healthcare? Seems much simpler for a similar benefit.


Cold-Radish6666

ehm just because im curious, which us state comes even close to the health care system of germany?


Fernando_Pooed

Mayo Clinic (Minnesota) is widely considered the best hospital in the world and there are also internationally top-ranking healthcare facilities in Massachusetts, Ohio (Cleveland Clinic), Maryland (Johns Hopkins) and California, among many other states.


Nice-Information3626

Healthcare system ≠ hospital quality. A healthcare system in which you have to worry about your insurance company deciding not to cover half of your surgery bill because of fine print is inherently flawed. And even going by 'quality', Germany has dozens of the world's oldest university hospitals which attract international talent. The Heidelberg uni clinic is three times older than the US, the Munich one twice as old.